Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 26: The Great Cloud of Witnesses

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Ep. 26: The Great Cloud of Witnesses · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:00
  Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
• 0:13
  My name is Alyssa.
• 0:15
  And my name's Bri.
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  We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
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  We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
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  word.
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  And apparently that's controversial.
• 0:28
  Get comfy.
• 0:30
  The other day, you have to say hi first.
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  Oh, hello.
• 0:45
  Your toes are on my headphones.
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  Nasty.
• 0:49
  Hello.
• 0:50
  Hello.
• 0:51
  Welcome to episode.
• 0:55
  Actually, I think it's 26.
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  A good year.
• 1:00
  26?
• 1:01
  A tolerable age.
• 1:02
  Actually, I take that back.
• 1:04
  That's the year you get taken off of your parents' insurance.
• 1:06
  That's a tough time.
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  It's not fun.
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  No, before you hit that point, it's like, all right, well, I can still have a little
• 1:15
  kiddish job kind of and whatever.
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  And then you hit 26 and you have to start figuring out whether or not to even bother
• 1:24
  being insured.
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  It's like, how much of my life do I want to put in my own hands?
• 1:28
  Once you hit 26, you have to fight for your right to have medical care.
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  For those of you not in the United States.
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  It must be nice.
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  It really is.
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  It's crazy because all of a sudden you have to find a grownup job that offers insurance.
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  But even then, the insurance that gets offered usually sucks.
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  Or if you're me, just abuse your boss into paying for it.
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  I mean, most full-time people get offered insurance.
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  So I think that's fair.
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  Yeah, but sometimes you have to threaten to quit.
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  Feels reasonable to me.
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  Yeah.
• 2:09
  Welcome to episode 26.
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  You started this by saying the other day and then I interrupted you and said you had to
• 2:16
  say hi.
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  That was completely not even any kind of topic.
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  But the other day, this girl at work came up to me and she was standing in front of
• 2:27
  me and she's like, I just feel like I need one of those.
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  And she like lifted her hands up to her face and I knew exactly what she was going to say
• 2:33
  before she said it.
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  And if you've seen High School Musical where that sister and brother, they go, yeah, I
• 2:42
  knew she was going to do that.
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  And it's funny because who talks about High School Musical?
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  I don't know, that's wildly obscure.
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  So brrr brrr, ma!
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  To all of you.
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  And welcome.
• 2:54
  And welcome.
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  To this part four of our Bathsheba series.
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  Yeah, I don't know how much Bathsheba we're going to talk about today.
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  We're going to kind of wrap up her story, but we're also going to go off and do some
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  other stuff.
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  Yeah.
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  Because we've talked about her story quite a lot and I think that's been really good.
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  But I think now we need to kind of transition into what does it mean for us?
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  What does it mean for women?
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  Yeah.
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  Where do we go from here?
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  And just talking about the importance of talking about women in the Bible and other important
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  women throughout history too.
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  Just know that their story needs to be told.
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  As much as we've heard about David and Joseph and all of the other biblical man names.
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  Matthew Mark Luke, John.
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  And then Marie went to Bible college.
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  Ah, did.
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  I think I've probably said this before, but when we heard a sermon probably about a year
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  ago at this point, maybe even longer, and they were talking about women like a really
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  positive light, which was, you know, groundbreaking, life changing, whatever.
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  And just hearing, hearing she said from the stage over and over, I was in tears just because
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  of that.
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  And not she should submit.
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  Right.
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  But just like hearing she and her and like references.
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  I mean, we talk in the normal world about how important representation is, you know,
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  and in church it's important too.
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  To hear someone talked about from the stage that you can relate to.
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  For whatever reason, in this case obviously it's gender, but like in different ways that
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  you can relate to it, like that makes things more real for you.
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  It helps you relate.
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  It deepens your faith.
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  And so I think that's why we need to talk about these women.
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  I think we've talked about this many times before, but like making your faith your own.
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  It's really hard to really truly understand these stories and these people in the Bible
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  if you can't put them into like your real world context.
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  You know, you can't picture them in your head.
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  So yeah, I think I like that we're going through and seeing the women of the Bible and relating
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  them to our real world experiences too.
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  Yeah, there are so many women that people keep coming, now that we're doing a series
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  like this, people keep coming up to me and being like, oh, you should do an episode on
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  this woman of the Bible.
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  And maybe we'll be so good at this podcasting that we'll get to every woman of the Bible
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  for every single woman ever.
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  But there's just so many and we don't realize that there's so many because they never get
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  talked about.
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  But like I've been having all kinds of conversations lately about Queen Vashti, who is part of
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  Esther's story.
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  And she's just a very small part of that story, but she's a really significant part of that
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  story.
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  And I would love to do an episode on her sometime at some point.
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  There's another Tamar, not the one that you're thinking of, another Tamar.
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  Actually a daughter of King David that I would like to talk about too.
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  Yeah, she has quite a tragic story.
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  Quite a tragic story, yeah.
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  But today we're talking a little bit about, Brie, what are we talking about?
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  Well listen, I was sitting there on my bed thinking of what the heck should we talk about
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  on this podcast?
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  We talk constantly and I'm just talked out.
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  You say that like we couldn't go and go and go.
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  We're the Energizer bunnies of talking.
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  I know.
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  But you know, I went back to basics and I said, where's my Beth friend Beth?
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  Your Beth friend Beth?
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  Where's my best friend Beth?
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  Beth, listen, I think I'm tongue tied.
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  So her book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Alison Barr, our bestie, I have read
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  through it once and now, well I listened to it.
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  I listened to the audio version and now I'm going back through the actual physical book.
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  That counts.
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  And I like highlighting it, being able to have that physical book in front of me.
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  But I was like, let's just peruse through here.
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  What can we talk about?
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  So in chapter three of her book, if you'd like to follow along with me, open your books
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  to page.
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  She was talking about her life a little bit and she was the wife of a pastor.
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  And in her super conservative Christian church that her husband worked at, they didn't allow
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  women to even teach Sunday school because there were boys older than 13 in their Sunday
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  school and women can't teach boys over the age of 13 in this super conservative Christian
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  church.
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  So her and her husband were petitioning the church to allow her to keep in mind she's
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  like a professor.
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  She has her PhD.
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  Yeah, like this is what she does for a living.
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  Yes.
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  She's not like any of the pastors there.
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  She's a medieval historian, correct?
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  She is.
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  Yeah, she's a medieval historian and she focuses on biblical studies.
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  So the perfect person to the bare minimum teach your Sunday school.
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  I would be honored to have this woman teach my Sunday school.
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  Just think about how much money people pay to go listen to her lectures or to be taught
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  by her.
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  Tons.
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  So you could just go for free to the church.
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  She had this quote in here that said, do we really want to go down this path?
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  Because she's thinking about her comfort.
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  All of the people that she's grown with and loved in her church, now she's having to step
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  away from that and go against the grain and say, yeah, I do believe that women have the
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  right to teach and preach and that might cost her her job or her husband's job or think
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  about the risks there for her.
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  The position in her church, her friends.
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  And it's like, is it really worth going down this path?
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  And that just kind of struck me.
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  I'm like, oh, what we're doing here is going against the grain.
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  Yeah, we, I don't want to say we've gotten a crazy amount of negative feedback, but we've
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  definitely gotten some pushback from people that we care about, from random people on
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  TikTok.
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  And you do have to ask the question, wouldn't it be easier to just not?
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  There's a comfort level there to just kind of sit back and accept it and say, well, maybe
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  I am a feminist, but I don't want to speak out too loudly because it's more comfortable
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  and safe to stick with the status quo.
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  Well, I think one of the comments that I have heard is, well, you can believe what you believe,
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  but why can't you just be quiet about it?
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  Why can't you just believe what you believe and let everybody else believe what they believe
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  and that's fine.
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  And my answer is always the other people aren't being quiet.
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  The people who believe in patriarchy, the people who believe that men should be the
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  head of the household, who believe that men should make all the decisions and be the teachers,
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  et cetera, et cetera.
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  They're not being quiet.
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  They're writing books, they're writing blogs, they're preaching about it and nobody tells
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  them to be quiet.
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  Nobody says, hey, you can believe that, just believe it more quietly.
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  Nobody says that.
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  So why are you saying it to me?
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  Why don't I get to have a voice?
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  Why?
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  Because I'm a woman in a Christian circle.
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  And unfortunately, stereotypically, that means I should be quiet and demure and submissive.
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  So yeah, people out there, are you a closeted feminist?
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  Now is your time to come out.
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  Didn't you say, I think it was you that told me this, that you saw a TikTok and it was
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  like instead of asking people if they're a feminist, you should ask if they're a massage
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  ist.
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  Yeah.
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  I'm going to assume that you're already a feminist.
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  I'm going to assume that you like equality.
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  I assume that you believe men and women are equal.
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  I saw another TikTok.
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  I sent it to you.
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  Welcome to the dark side.
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  And it said something about everyone is born a feminist because no one is born with hate
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  in their heart for another people group.
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  It's just like how we talk about how racism is taught to children.
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  It's not inherent in them.
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  It's taught.
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  Sexism is the same thing.
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  Absolutely.
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  So everyone is born a feminist and you become a massaginist.
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  And I thought that was so incredibly powerful because if you're born believing in equality,
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  if you're born a feminist, then that means that's how God made you in the first place.
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  Yeah.
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  God created you with a desire for equality and you chose something else.
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  You chose to walk on a path that if you're a man, gives you power and autonomy and makes
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  you feel a little like God.
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  Yeah.
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  And I just want to go up to the people believing that and say, why?
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  Why do you think that God would give you the right to hurt and oppress people and that's
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  what he wants.
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  He loves his people.
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  He loves the women just as much as he loves the men.
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  I think what I hate about that though is the idea that, and actually one of our cousins
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  brought this up to us quite a while ago, is that people that believe in male headship
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  or female submission or whatever, and if you're not familiar with these terms, they sound
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  a little inappropriate.
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  I was going to be like, well, listen, shut your mouth.
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  But these are the terms they use people.
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  I didn't make them up.
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  But the people who believe in that kind of thing believe that the men are being loving
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  to the women by leading them, by guiding them in the path that God wants them to be guided
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  in, by taking more responsibility for their spiritual growth, I don't know.
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  And it's such a load of crap.
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  Yes.
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  It's such a load of crap.
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  How do you get to a point where you tell yourself, it is loving for me to tell you that you can't
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  handle yourself?
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  Well flip the script.
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  If I went up to my husband and I assumed that he could barely turn his head to breathe,
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  and that I had to gently guide him in the direction so that he could do whatever he
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  needed to do, if you think about it that way, you would think, oh, that's demeaning.
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  You shouldn't talk to your husband that way.
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  You shouldn't talk to another person that way.
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  Yet they're trying to do that all the time and slap God's name on it.
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  I don't need my partner to take more responsibility with God for me.
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  No.
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  I'm good.
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  I'm my own person.
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  I'm responsible for whatever I've done in my life, and God blankets whatever I've done
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  in my life with Jesus' love.
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  And so I'm good.
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  I'm good.
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  I don't need an intermediary of a man.
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  Jesus did it for me.
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  I'm okay.
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  There's a couple different types of communication, and one of them is parent to child, and the
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  other one is parent to parent.
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  So if I'm coming up to you as my team member and I talk down to you, that's not going to
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  make you feel good.
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  That's not going to make you want to rise to the occasion or do your job.
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  And that's like parent to child.
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  You want to talk to people parent to parent.
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  That's how you lead people.
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  That's how you guide people.
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  We're on the same level.
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  And I'm not going to baby talk you.
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  I'm not going to make you feel bad about it.
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  Here's what needs to be done.
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  There you go.
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  And I think that's how we should treat all relationships, including our romantic relationships.
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  But I think, and you talked a little bit about this in the research that you were doing,
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  just so everyone knows.
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  So Bree and I lived together, and it was the middle of the night.
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  In the dark of the night, I was tossing and turning.
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  And she sends me a text from down the hall and she's like, Hey, I want to talk about
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  the podcast.
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  Come over here.
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  I'm okay.
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  I'm in bed, guys.
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  Once I go to bed, you have to understand when I go to bed, I'm done.
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  I'm out for the day.
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  Not that I'm sleeping, but I'm like through with my day.
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  This is how much I love my sister, folks.
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  I got my butt up.
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  I came all the way down the hall.
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  All the way down the hall.
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  All the way.
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  And I sat there while she preached at me.
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  So prepare yourselves.
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  They feel overwhelmed.
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  Bekkah No, but I think you did talk about how women,
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  Christian women are supposed to be demure.
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  Bekkah Demure, mindful, cutesy.
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  Bekkah Because of that, that does impact the communication.
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  Yeah.
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  Oh yeah.
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  It's all about comfort.
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  Women, I think specifically, are always taught to be peacemakers.
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  I don't know if that's specifically taught to women and girls or if that's just subliminal
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  messaging from all around them.
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  But you always want to make the other person comfortable.
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  You never want to make a situation awkward.
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  You want to diffuse the situation.
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  And part of that, I think, is safety too.
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  Because if you escalate a situation, you don't know what's going to happen to you.
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  But you always think of your comfort as coming second.
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  Bekkah Yeah.
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  Well, I think, I mean, let's talk about that a little bit with Bathsheba's story as it
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  goes on past the story that we've talked about.
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  So the next portion of her story, I guess, she has Solomon as her son.
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  Now they actually, her and David actually have several children, but Solomon, I think,
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  is their oldest surviving child.
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  And when David is on his deathbed, he's naming the next king.
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  Now I find this really interesting because it seems like maybe he didn't really talk
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  to God about this because God had a plan and David did what David wanted to do.
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  But David names his oldest son as king and I don't remember his name.
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  But prior to this, back when the prophet Nathan came to David and talked to him about them
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  having a son, he also said, and your son will become king.
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  So Bathsheba and David's son Solomon was supposed to be king.
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  Bathsheba knew that, David knew that, but forgot it, I guess.
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  But then when the time came and David is naming the next king, Bathsheba didn't say anything
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  initially, which I think is super interesting.
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  And this is totally like conjecture.
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  This is just me putting the way I would feel on her, so definitely could not be the case.
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  But if I was her, I think the reason that I didn't say anything would be to keep the
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  peace.
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  Who knows who she's going to offend if she says something?
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  Who knows what's going to happen to her?
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  And she's already been through so much tragedy.
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  And women were taught not to speak up back then.
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  You're right because you don't know what's going to happen to you.
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  You don't have any rights.
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  You're just a woman.
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  Well, and what could have happened to her son?
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  Let's say she says something and that makes the person who does become the next king really
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  angry.
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  You don't know what's about to happen there.
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  So it's better to keep the peace, keep the status quo, not rock the boat.
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  Don't rock the boat, baby.
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  So the next part of her story is that the prophet Nathan comes back.
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  The prophet Nathan?
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  I say the prophet because my husband's name is Nathan and it really is throwing me off.
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  The prophet Brianna.
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  The prophet Brianna should shut up.
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  No, the prophet Nathan came back to Bathsheba and was like, hey, remember what I said?
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  Remember.
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  And you need to go remind David of this because God said Solomon should become king.
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  And then she does.
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  And actually that's another interesting thing that I was reading is that people use that
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  part of the story and they'll say Bathsheba.
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  She was like some kind of out to get her own political gain.
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  She was scheming all along.
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  Like her and Nathan got together and came up with this plan to get Solomon to be king.
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  But in order to make that work, again, you've got to really jump through hoops to make that
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  story work.
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  And that's just another way of making the women of the Bible look bad for no reason
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  at all.
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  In order for that to work, you have to believe that Nathan was never a prophet of God.
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  And the Bible calls him a prophet.
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  So now the Bible is lying.
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  And you have to, like you said, jump through a lot of hoops to get there.
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  The Bible does not say that.
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  If it wanted you to understand that, it would have said Bathsheba was out to get her own
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  political gain and tricked King David into making her son king.
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  But it doesn't say that.
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  That doesn't and anything else then that Nathan says later as he prophesies from God, then
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  you have to take this idea that he plotted with Bathsheba and assume that he's a liar
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  every other time he speaks.
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  Are you willing to do that?
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  But most people don't.
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  It's just we're going to take this one story and we're going to cherry pick it.
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  And we're going to say that because we have to make someone into the villain in this story,
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  even though there doesn't need to be a villain in this story.
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  Well, just a total side note that I would love to go into at some point too.
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  Did you all know that Bathsheba was the one who not technically wrote but gave the message
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  that was the Proverbs 31 woman?
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  I didn't.
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  I didn't either.
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  But our mom actually brought this up to us recently.
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  Because when Solomon writes it out, he says this was a message from my mother of the type
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  of woman to find.
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  It's totally an offshoot that we want to do the Proverbs 31 woman at some point, but that's
• 22:40
  a really big topic.
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  I'm going to have to spend a week fasting before we do that.
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  Wow.
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  When we did, I don't know if your churches out there do this, but there's a program called
• 22:54
  Rooted.
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  And our old church used to do it all the time.
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  It's kind of like an intro to small groups, I would say.
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  But one of the days, they have you do fasting just for like 12 hours or something.
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  It's not long.
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  It's really short.
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  It's like, just skip breakfast, lunch, you can eat dinner.
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  And I did Rooted like three separate times because we, I don't know, it was a whole thing,
• 23:20
  but we did it a bunch of times.
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  Every single time we got to the fasting day, I was like, I'm going to kill people.
• 23:26
  Someone needs to die.
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  Can I tell you that, okay, when I did Rooted, I was in a small group with a lot of divorces.
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  Yes, you've said before.
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  The people know.
• 23:39
  But it was a great time.
• 23:41
  We would get together and just drink wine.
• 23:43
  Except for the day that was fasting, I got there, I hadn't eaten anything all day, then
• 23:49
  chugged a glass of wine.
• 23:50
  I was like, wow, this is amazing.
• 23:55
  I love Rooted.
• 23:58
  I feel so close to the Lord.
• 24:01
  All right, people, now you know.
• 24:04
  The secret is fasting and drinking.
• 24:07
  Good.
• 24:08
  I'm sorry, my family out there.
• 24:09
  Don't listen to that message.
• 24:12
  But circling back, circling back, keeping the comfort.
• 24:17
  I think, and you talked about this too, to pull it around to real life with dating.
• 24:24
  Yeah.
• 24:25
  Ladies and gentlemen out there, dating is hard.
• 24:30
  As a woman, you're always, again, concerned about making sure that you don't make the
• 24:36
  situation uncomfortable.
• 24:38
  So you'll agree to things that you're uncomfortable with.
• 24:42
  I'm not trying to make it weird at all, but agreeing to a second date, or agreeing that,
• 24:49
  oh yeah, this drink is fantastic.
• 24:53
  I don't know, just to keep the situation comfortable.
• 24:57
  I don't want to say, no, I don't want to go on a second date with you right in front
• 25:01
  of that person because I'm worried about making him feel bad, even though he's been making
• 25:05
  me feel bad.
• 25:07
  He's not concerned about my comfort.
• 25:08
  Well, we were talking about this too, and I know these are just a bunch of random real
• 25:13
  life examples, but I think we think about things in the context of the church because
• 25:19
  that's the perspective that we live in.
• 25:22
  But these things happen in the broader picture too, so like dating.
• 25:27
  And then if you guys watch, so one of the really popular YouTubers is MrBeast, right?
• 25:33
  So my daughter loves his videos.
• 25:36
  It's a rough time, guys.
• 25:38
  But he does a lot of competition type videos.
• 25:41
  That's kind of his thing now.
• 25:42
  And he did one, and it was like guys versus girls, and there was a team of guys and a
• 25:48
  team of girls living out in the wilderness.
• 25:50
  And then once a week or something, they would come onto this bridge and have a challenge,
• 25:56
  and whoever won the challenge got some sort of reward.
• 26:00
  So finally, there's just one guy and one girl left, and they meet at the bridge.
• 26:05
  And he says, okay, really simple challenge today.
• 26:09
  You guys each have a piece of paper and a pen in front of you.
• 26:11
  I want you to write down something that you want.
• 26:15
  Whatever it is, the other person gets to decide if you get it.
• 26:20
  Okay, reasonable, right?
• 26:22
  So the girl turns hers around.
• 26:24
  It's an art kit.
• 26:25
  She wants an art kit because she's bored.
• 26:27
  She's all alone.
• 26:29
  And honestly, she had a lot of food at that point.
• 26:31
  She was doing pretty good.
• 26:32
  So the guy's like, okay, yeah, of course you can have an art kit.
• 26:36
  Who cares?
• 26:37
  That's not going to help you stay here any longer.
• 26:38
  And he thinks she's stupid, right?
• 26:40
  But she got what she asked for.
• 26:43
  He asks for a personal chef for the rest of the time that he's there, expecting that she's
• 26:50
  going to say yes.
• 26:52
  Because why would she ever say no to him?
• 26:55
  Women are taught to say yes.
• 26:59
  Not to make the situation uncomfortable, to make themselves less.
• 27:06
  Well just like what you were talking about before, why can't we both have different opinions
• 27:11
  and why can't you just keep yours quiet?
• 27:14
  Because I'm allowed to have my opinions too, even if they make you uncomfortable.
• 27:17
  And I'm allowed to be loud about it.
• 27:20
  Heck yeah.
• 27:21
  Really loud apparently.
• 27:23
  Yeah.
• 27:24
  And I will say, circling back to that video, she said no.
• 27:30
  And I was very proud of her.
• 27:32
  And he was shocked, boys and girls.
• 27:34
  He was shocked.
• 27:35
  You didn't allow me to have a personal chef while I allowed you to have an art kit?
• 27:40
  If she had said yes, he would have won.
• 27:42
  That would have been the automatic thing.
• 27:44
  But because women are taught to just do what we're told to do, he expected her to be nice.
• 27:53
  Well think about, I know that I've seen TikToks about these.
• 27:57
  They're called like micro feminist movements.
• 28:00
  So people go around saying like, what micro feminist thing do you do?
• 28:04
  And so some people are like, oh, instead of assuming that the doctor is a man, I assume
• 28:10
  that she's a woman.
• 28:12
  And let them correct me if I'm wrong.
• 28:14
  Or I say the woman's name first instead.
• 28:16
  One of the things that they do though, is instead of stepping out of the way when you're
• 28:21
  walking towards someone, if you notice, men don't move out of the way.
• 28:27
  As a general rule, I'm not saying all men.
• 28:29
  But when you're walking towards someone, they don't get out of the way.
• 28:32
  You have to get out of the way as a woman.
• 28:34
  So instead of doing that, you just walk into them.
• 28:38
  Look at them like, what the crap?
• 28:40
  I saw that video and she's like, I have walked into six men today.
• 28:43
  I've started doing that.
• 28:45
  I think it's hilarious, especially Disney and Black Friday when you're in big crowds.
• 28:51
  Because the men look at you like, what are you doing?
• 28:53
  You should get out of the way.
• 28:54
  And I'm like, you should get out of the way.
• 28:56
  Well, you don't even realize it.
• 28:59
  You don't even realize that that is a thing until you start doing something like that.
• 29:03
  You're like, oh my gosh, I've been moving out of the way.
• 29:07
  And that would be perfectly fine if it was a mutual respect kind of thing.
• 29:11
  I'll move out of your way and you move out of my way.
• 29:14
  No one needs to get in a head on collision here.
• 29:16
  But the fact that nine times out of 10, the woman is going to be the one to step out of
• 29:22
  the way, to inconvenience herself to make that other person not have to get out of the
• 29:28
  way.
• 29:29
  It's just, it's wild.
• 29:31
  So yeah, do we really want to go down this path?
• 29:33
  Do you really want to sacrifice your comfort for the courage to step out and say that this
• 29:41
  isn't right?
• 29:43
  This is what I believe.
• 29:44
  I'm tired of complying to what has been said for me to do all along.
• 29:52
  I'm going to go against the grain.
• 29:54
  Some people that did go against the grain.
• 30:00
  So Beth talks about a great cloud of female witnesses in this chapter of her book.
• 30:07
  And when she was talking about her husband ended up getting laid off from his job because
• 30:11
  they disagreed with their stance.
• 30:13
  They made waves.
• 30:15
  They made waves.
• 30:16
  So her husband got fired and she's like, I was sitting there and thinking about Marjorie
• 30:21
  Kemp.
• 30:22
  Just take a pause.
• 30:23
  I know you guys don't know who this is yet.
• 30:26
  We'll get there.
• 30:27
  But you're sitting there in tragedy.
• 30:31
  What sort of person is sitting there in tragedy and thinking of historical figures?
• 30:35
  She's like, this medieval woman.
• 30:37
  I just couldn't get her out of my mind after my husband got laid off.
• 30:40
  I love that.
• 30:41
  She's great.
• 30:42
  And Marjorie Kemp was arrested in 1417 for pretty much just loving the Lord too much.
• 30:51
  She had a lot of money and could get away with a lot more than what other women of her
• 30:55
  time could get away with.
• 30:57
  But she would go into churches and she was talked about how wild her worship was.
• 31:03
  She would get on her knees and she would just love the Lord too loudly.
• 31:08
  And she would go and she would kind of teach the Word of God to other people.
• 31:13
  And so they arrested her because they said women aren't allowed to preach.
• 31:17
  And so she argued with the Archbishop and said, but I'm not preaching.
• 31:21
  And she gave all these biblical references that Paul says that defended that she did
• 31:28
  have the right to teach and share the Word of God in the name of Jesus.
• 31:33
  And she actually ended up winning against the Archbishop.
• 31:36
  The Archbishop called her a wicked woman.
• 31:39
  And she's like, actually, I think you're a wicked man and you should repent for your
• 31:42
  sins otherwise you're going to hell.
• 31:44
  That's what she told the Archbishop in 1417.
• 31:49
  This woman did.
• 31:51
  Again, let's mention too, when you look at certain men in the past, let's take some major
• 32:01
  historical figures.
• 32:03
  Martin Luther or someone like that.
• 32:05
  He could get away with so much.
• 32:07
  Now, I'm not saying that things went great for him in the end, but he was able to go
• 32:13
  quite a bit further.
• 32:14
  Whereas for her, I mean, right then and there, first offense, chop off her head.
• 32:20
  Obviously, that's not what happened, but that was the risk she was running by saying anything
• 32:26
  to begin with.
• 32:29
  Whereas men could, they may not have been able to get away with it forever and ever,
• 32:34
  but they could get away with a lot more.
• 32:36
  And so she's risking her life to push the needle forward a little bit.
• 32:44
  And in the book about Marjorie Kemp, it says that she was surrounded by a great cloud of
• 32:49
  female witnesses to help back her up pretty much, which I just feel like that's such a
• 32:55
  comfort.
• 32:56
  Oh, I think about that all the time.
• 32:57
  It's one of my favorite things.
• 32:59
  All these incredible women throughout the Bible, throughout history, that were not quiet
• 33:04
  and compliant, and they didn't necessarily think of other people's comfort all the time.
• 33:11
  They thought about, how can I push forward the kingdom of God and be loud about it?
• 33:18
  So people like Mary Magdalene, who was called the apostle of the apostles, she was called,
• 33:25
  wasn't she called Jesus's favorite at one point?
• 33:29
  So that's actually in her own book.
• 33:31
  So the Gnostic Gospels, which are not included in the main Bible for many reasons, but in
• 33:36
  there, supposedly, if those books are true, Peter calls her Jesus's favorite.
• 33:41
  Is Mary Magdalene the same as Mary of Bethany?
• 33:45
  I don't know.
• 33:46
  But there's like 7,000 Marys.
• 33:48
  There's like 7,000 Marys.
• 33:49
  This is a quote from Beth Allison Barr.
• 33:53
  For the medieval Christians, Mary of Bethany was not just a woman who sat quietly at the
• 33:57
  feet of Jesus.
• 33:59
  She was a repentant prostitute.
• 34:01
  So I do think it's Mary Magdalene.
• 34:04
  And former demoniac.
• 34:07
  She was the apostle of the apostles, the first apostle who carried the good news of the resurrection.
• 34:12
  She was the missionary of Christ, affirmed by Peter.
• 34:15
  She preached openly, performed miracles that paralleled those of the apostles, and converted
• 34:19
  a new land to the Christian faith.
• 34:22
  That is not a woman who is quiet.
• 34:24
  I think you have to look at almost every woman featured in the Bible.
• 34:30
  Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm thinking of all of the examples of women named
• 34:35
  in the Bible.
• 34:36
  And I can't think of a single one who was quiet or compliant or who sat back and let
• 34:43
  their husbands lead them onto the path God wanted them to be on in the first place.
• 34:48
  Like that's very convoluted.
• 34:51
  Jesus will lead you to the path he wants you to be on.
• 34:54
  You don't need a person in front of you.
• 34:57
  And I think of Mary and Martha.
• 35:01
  They just followed Jesus.
• 35:03
  That's what they did.
• 35:04
  They just simply followed Jesus.
• 35:08
  Mary the mother of Jesus.
• 35:10
  Esther.
• 35:11
  Ruth.
• 35:13
  Like I can point you at Pua and Shifra that we talked about forever ago.
• 35:20
  Big Deb.
• 35:21
  I wanted to say Naomi.
• 35:24
  Naomi in the Bible I just think is hilarious.
• 35:26
  I was reading a little bit about her this past couple days.
• 35:31
  She changed her name after her husband died and she moved back to wherever she was from.
• 35:36
  Tamara which essentially just means like despair.
• 35:41
  That is so funny to me.
• 35:42
  Like can you be so sad that you look at someone and just say like don't call me by Brianna.
• 35:46
  Just call me miserable.
• 35:49
  And be fully serious.
• 35:52
  Do not call me Brianna.
• 35:53
  And imagine the people of the town that are like trying to interact with her and they're
• 35:57
  like hello miserable.
• 35:58
  How are you today?
• 35:59
  I'm sad.
• 36:00
  Obviously.
• 36:01
  That is a level of just insanity that I aspire to.
• 36:12
  It was so tremendous.
• 36:13
  It was written down in the Bible.
• 36:14
  They were just like we need to remember this.
• 36:17
  Paula of Rome who I was reading about.
• 36:20
  I think Beth does talk about her in her book as well but I read an article about her.
• 36:25
  This is the woman that we talked about a while ago who left her kids to follow Jesus and
• 36:30
  actually she's like an incredible person.
• 36:32
  It's a wild story.
• 36:34
  She was a mother of five.
• 36:37
  She was widowed early in her 30s.
• 36:39
  She joined a study with other very wealthy widows because she was wealthy herself.
• 36:44
  Go her.
• 36:47
  And that's where she met Jerome.
• 36:48
  I don't exactly know who Jerome is but he's important.
• 36:52
  He's important.
• 36:53
  He's important and his name is Jerome.
• 36:57
  So she decided to leave Rome and go tour the Holy Lands with one of her daughters so she
• 37:03
  didn't leave all her kids.
• 37:04
  She brought her favorites.
• 37:05
  Well I think the story that Beth tells too of her, there's like this legend of her standing
• 37:13
  on the bow of a boat staring at her children and her children are like sobbing asking her
• 37:18
  not to go.
• 37:20
  And that's part of why this story is wild.
• 37:22
  It's hard because as mom I can't even begin to imagine this but she was following what
• 37:31
  God asked her to do.
• 37:34
  And sometimes that hurts.
• 37:36
  It hurts a lot of times and it's not just about leaving your kids.
• 37:40
  It can hurt for different reasons too.
• 37:43
  And I'm not recommending that you all get on a boat and leave your children but in this
• 37:48
  particular case it's very clear that God had something for her.
• 37:52
  Yeah she ended up in Bethlehem actually and she started three different monasteries.
• 37:59
  So one was just for women, one was for men, and one was for tourists.
• 38:04
  Now the one that she ran specifically, all of the women there became experts in the ancient
• 38:11
  languages and they preserved a lot of the ancient texts so they duplicated them and
• 38:20
  they were preserved for centuries.
• 38:22
  And then her, her daughter and Jerome were responsible for translating those texts into
• 38:29
  a Latin version of the Bible called the Vulgate which was used for over a thousand years.
• 38:36
  Which made the Bible accessible to how many people?
• 38:40
  Well us even today.
• 38:42
  It's still being used I'm sure.
• 38:44
  That impact is being felt.
• 38:46
  And I just think it's such a contrast to the people that say, well women your primary calling
• 38:55
  is to be wives and mothers because you're nurturing, because you're loving, because
• 38:59
  you're whatever.
• 39:00
  Don't get me started.
• 39:03
  This woman left her children.
• 39:06
  And again I'm not saying that this is the ideal situation but her job in life and she
• 39:14
  knew it and God knew it for her was not to be a mom to these kids.
• 39:20
  And that hurts.
• 39:21
  That's a hard story.
• 39:24
  But her job, her calling, her following God was her going out and preserving the Bible
• 39:31
  for the rest of time.
• 39:33
  And she had so much faith in God that she knew her kids are going to be taken care of
• 39:40
  and okay.
• 39:41
  I think when I first read this story, because I read the Making of Biblical Womanhood quite
• 39:46
  a long time ago at this point.
• 39:48
  And when I first read this story I think I pictured her as really callous.
• 39:55
  She didn't want to be a mom in the first place and she's glad to get rid of these kids.
• 39:58
  Peace out.
• 40:00
  I didn't know her.
• 40:01
  She was in 1417.
• 40:02
  No, that was Marjorie Kemper.
• 40:04
  Oh sorry.
• 40:05
  I think this seems wrong.
• 40:07
  347 to 404?
• 40:09
  It's possible.
• 40:10
  But I didn't know her.
• 40:12
  She was a long time ago.
• 40:14
  Long dead.
• 40:17
  But I would imagine because I see the fruits of her labor, because I see how much she cared
• 40:26
  about humanity, how much she cared about the women that she was working with, that it probably
• 40:32
  hurt really bad to leave her kids.
• 40:35
  As I'm peeling apart this story I would imagine that it hurt really, really bad.
• 40:41
  And then I liken that to when Jesus was walking through towns and asking all of his disciples
• 40:48
  to drop what they were doing and follow him.
• 40:51
  And that had to hurt.
• 40:53
  She didn't become a Christian until she joined this study with these other widows.
• 41:00
  And she became on fire for the Lord and was able to keep that fire going for the rest
• 41:05
  of her life.
• 41:07
  I feel like for you and me we were born into it, right?
• 41:11
  We've been Christians, we've been in the church our entire lives.
• 41:15
  So it's hard to find that spark again to get yourself back on fire for the Lord and have
• 41:22
  that same level of faith.
• 41:25
  But I think stories like this and these other incredibly strong women are lighting that
• 41:32
  fire again because I realize my God is so much bigger than I ever thought he was.
• 41:39
  Yeah, I think, you know we talked about representation.
• 41:45
  And when you're sitting in church and you never hear a story about a person who looks
• 41:51
  like you, and I'm sure this is true for many, many people groups, but when you never hear
• 41:58
  a story about a person who looks like you, whether that's a story from the Bible or a
• 42:02
  story from history, it does get really hard to make it feel real.
• 42:08
  Because it feels like it's not for you.
• 42:09
  Yeah, because if all you ever hear about is Daniel in the lion's den and Moses parting
• 42:15
  the sea and Noah in the ark, why can't I do that?
• 42:19
  Why can't I build a freaking ark?
• 42:21
  Well, I don't want to.
• 42:24
  It took him a really long time.
• 42:26
  It's like hundreds of years.
• 42:29
  I think one important point to make also is that Paul was doing the same thing that the
• 42:37
  disciples were doing, right?
• 42:39
  The disciples were told drop everything.
• 42:42
  Don't say goodbye to your families, to your whatever.
• 42:46
  Just follow me.
• 42:47
  Just follow me.
• 42:48
  Drop everything that you're doing and follow me.
• 42:52
  And they did.
• 42:53
  And we don't judge them for that.
• 42:55
  No.
• 42:56
  But we sit here and we hear her story and I absolutely guarantee you that everyone is
• 43:01
  sitting there judging her for that.
• 43:04
  When Jesus came to her and said, take up your cross and follow me.
• 43:09
  That's what she was doing.
• 43:12
  And the really hard reality is that when Jesus said that, there was a consequence.
• 43:19
  Just like with his disciples.
• 43:21
  When he said that there was a consequence.
• 43:23
  There was a hard choice that had to be made.
• 43:25
  I actually always question, and this is not biblical at all, but I always question were
• 43:29
  there people that Jesus said follow me and they didn't?
• 43:33
  There had to have been.
• 43:34
  Yeah.
• 43:35
  Wouldn't you think?
• 43:36
  We never read into the story like that, but I just kind of always have wondered that.
• 43:40
  Were there people that said no?
• 43:43
  And was it okay that they said no?
• 43:44
  This is totally offshoot.
• 43:46
  Did they still end up becoming Christ followers?
• 43:50
  I don't know.
• 43:51
  I just think that's an interesting thought.
• 43:53
  Because it's a hard path to walk down.
• 43:55
  It is.
• 43:56
  Like we've said a million times during this podcast, it's not a comfortable situation.
• 44:01
  There are times where I do, there's a part of me that wishes I could just be happy with
• 44:07
  the status quo.
• 44:09
  Because it would be easier.
• 44:10
  It would be so much simpler to just be able to be what was expected of me.
• 44:18
  What I was told to be as a child.
• 44:21
  People would be more comfortable around you.
• 44:23
  Yeah.
• 44:24
  Everyone wouldn't feel like they have to like awkwardly ask, how's the podcast going?
• 44:29
  I don't really want to talk about this, but...
• 44:35
  Or anytime anyone says a sexist comment, just like look at you.
• 44:40
  Please stop making sexist comments.
• 44:44
  Let's just stop that.
• 44:48
  I don't know if I want to keep this in or not, but I was talking to a person.
• 44:58
  And they said, well, this is just women's work.
• 45:02
  This isn't a man's job.
• 45:04
  And I was like, give me more information.
• 45:07
  Tell me more about that.
• 45:10
  Why do you feel that way?
• 45:11
  Because again, trying to keep the situation comfortable.
• 45:15
  I don't want to be like, piss off.
• 45:19
  He was talking about bathing a dog and how this is just women's work.
• 45:25
  And I was like, what do you mean by that?
• 45:28
  And he was like, well, women are just naturally more nurturing.
• 45:32
  And I was like, that's not true.
• 45:35
  Yeah.
• 45:36
  I'm not nurturing.
• 45:37
  Which I feel like I am.
• 45:39
  You definitely are.
• 45:40
  But I think it's so stupid when it's like women are more nurturing.
• 45:46
  You are nurturing, but men also can be nurturing.
• 45:50
  And should be.
• 45:52
  Men should be.
• 45:53
  I think nurturing just means caring about another person, occasionally putting them
• 45:58
  before yourself, and being aware of their needs.
• 46:02
  How about everybody should be nurturing?
• 46:05
  Everybody should be.
• 46:06
  That should just be an expectation.
• 46:07
  I think part of that is how we raise boys.
• 46:10
  Yeah.
• 46:11
  And we don't-
• 46:12
  Well, because we raise boys to say that their needs and comforts come before everybody else.
• 46:17
  Right.
• 46:18
  But yeah, that's wild.
• 46:19
  I think I've said that's wild like five times in this episode.
• 46:22
  That's wild.
• 46:23
  I didn't have any alcohol, so I don't have any more flowing words coming out of me.
• 46:29
  This is my third glass of wine today.
• 46:31
  Wow.
• 46:32
  So to end this on an ending Bathsheba note-
• 46:35
  We're gonna end Bathsheba.
• 46:40
  To wrap up all of the talks about her.
• 46:43
  Real quick.
• 46:44
  Yeah.
• 46:45
  I think Bathsheba was surrounded by a cloud of witnesses too.
• 46:48
  Doesn't that just make it like gives me shivers down my spine?
• 46:51
  I think there was a cloud of female witnesses around her saying, we hear you, we're here
• 46:57
  to protect you, and things are gonna be okay.
• 47:00
  Because your name is gonna be written in the book of life forever and ever.
• 47:05
  I just, I can't begin to tell you, if you guys haven't read Beth's book, read it.
• 47:10
  It's just spectacular.
• 47:12
  But that particular segment where she talks about the cloud of female witnesses and just
• 47:19
  the empowering feeling of that, of thinking all of these incredible women throughout history
• 47:26
  would back me up.
• 47:29
  They would back us up here.
• 47:30
  Yep.
• 47:31
  They would say, yeah, keep doing it.
• 47:33
  And even when the TikTok trolls jump on and call us children for the things that we say-
• 47:39
  Or AI.
• 47:40
  Or AI.
• 47:41
  Yeah, we did get that comment.
• 47:42
  Or whatever else they want to throw at us.
• 47:48
  All of these women, plus also Jesus, are behind us.
• 47:53
  And I just think that's super cool.
• 47:55
  But I think to move to the end of Bathsheba's, the story that we know of her.
• 48:02
  So Solomon becomes king, her son Solomon, and becomes, I think overall, quite a beloved
• 48:10
  king in Israel.
• 48:11
  He ends up building the temple, things like that.
• 48:14
  She becomes the queen mother.
• 48:16
  Yeah.
• 48:17
  And she basically, there's a story where she comes to him and wants to talk to him and
• 48:24
  give him some advice.
• 48:25
  And he pulls a throne up right next to him.
• 48:28
  And she's right there.
• 48:29
  And it goes from just the worst that life can give you.
• 48:36
  The beginning of where we land in her story in Second Samuel, I would argue is just the
• 48:42
  worst life can offer someone.
• 48:44
  She was powerless in so many situations.
• 48:47
  And then she loses her child.
• 48:51
  There's nothing good in that story.
• 48:54
  And I don't want to say, oh, but everything was fine, because look at the end of her story.
• 48:59
  No, her story, the beginning of her story still sucks.
• 49:03
  But look at when she steps into her own, when she decides not to let everybody else be comfortable,
• 49:10
  when she follows what she knows God told her to do, look where she lands.
• 49:19
  She is the most influential woman in Israel during this time.
• 49:22
  I heard a TikTok the other day that said, your trauma did not make you stronger.
• 49:29
  Your trauma traumatized you.
• 49:31
  And it's okay to admit that and it's okay to accept that.
• 49:35
  But you can move past it and you can become strong from it.
• 49:38
  But it's okay to accept that it traumatized you too.
• 49:41
  Yeah, I think it's your reaction to the trauma, your choice to build yourself back up that
• 49:49
  made you strong.
• 49:51
  I think yeah, that's a really twisted way that we in modern day look at things.
• 49:56
  It's like, well, you should be thankful that you went through X, Y, Z, because if you hadn't,
• 50:05
  then you wouldn't have what you have now.
• 50:07
  And I've actually, we've seen that comment a couple of times on our TikTok of like, well,
• 50:12
  she went through this because she was supposed to be queen and this was the path that God
• 50:17
  had for her to become queen.
• 50:19
  No, she went through an absolute trauma.
• 50:23
  If God wanted her to become queen, there were other pathways for that.
• 50:27
  Oh yeah.
• 50:28
  There were other options.
• 50:30
  I don't know if you know this, but God has ultimate power and he can do whatever he wants.
• 50:35
  I mean, she could have just married David in the first place.
• 50:40
  Her husband could have actually died in battle and then David could have married her after
• 50:44
  that.
• 50:45
  Many options.
• 50:46
  But the reality is yeah, her trauma was traumatic and what an incredible thing to have in the
• 50:54
  Bible because now all the people who go through trauma have a way to see themselves in the
• 51:02
  Bible.
• 51:04
  Their story is there and yet also redemption is there and the end of the story is there
• 51:12
  that they can see that it doesn't just stop, that it keeps moving forward, that God keeps
• 51:16
  moving forward with Bathsheba.
• 51:18
  God is faithful.
• 51:20
  One of the things that I wanted to say too because we talked a little bit about how in
• 51:27
  this story everybody always defends David because the Bible calls him a man after God's
• 51:34
  own heart and that's a really tricky thing to get past when you look at what he did.
• 51:43
  This is not the only bad story about David.
• 51:47
  He was a troubled soul.
• 51:53
  But our pastor this last week, or my pastor I guess, this last week talked about David
• 51:58
  and Bathsheba which I thought was really interesting.
• 52:02
  I think that's just another affirmation that we are in fact doing what we're supposed to
• 52:06
  be doing.
• 52:07
  Yeah.
• 52:08
  So he started talking about us like, hey, I know that story.
• 52:13
  Did I manifest this?
• 52:15
  Sitting there with my hands up.
• 52:17
  No, but what he said I thought was just so really impactful about David.
• 52:24
  So the series we're going through right now, I really like it.
• 52:28
  It's called Shame Off You.
• 52:33
  He was talking about how we can struggle a lot with that phrase.
• 52:39
  How could David be a man after God's own heart?
• 52:42
  And then also be this horrific person who hurt so many people.
• 52:49
  And he said, I don't think it's a reflection of who David was because David is sinful.
• 52:56
  David has done a lot.
• 52:57
  David could be a soap opera all on his own.
• 53:02
  He said, I think it's a reflection of how God sees David and how God sees all of us.
• 53:11
  So not David is a man after God's own heart because he's such a wonderful exemplary human
• 53:16
  being.
• 53:18
  But David's a man after God's own heart because once you accept God into your heart, God sees
• 53:24
  you as someone that he cherishes, as someone who is after his own heart, his flesh and
• 53:32
  blood.
• 53:33
  Yeah.
• 53:34
  As his child, as perfect in his eyes.
• 53:38
  That turned everything on its head for me because I struggle with that a lot in this
• 53:43
  story of how do we get past that?
• 53:48
  But I thought that was a really good way to put it.
• 53:51
  And a way to talk about this story that doesn't excuse any of his behavior, but also makes
• 53:58
  the Bible make a lot more sense to me.
• 54:00
  Yeah.
• 54:01
  All right, so I think that's the end of our Bathsheba series.
• 54:06
  I hope you guys have enjoyed four hours of us talking about her.
• 54:11
  Similar to the length of Colin Firth's Pride and Prejudice, which we thought was four hours,
• 54:18
  but was in fact six.
• 54:20
  So should we do two more episodes, guys?
• 54:22
  I don't think I can talk about Babs anymore.
• 54:23
  No, I think we got to give it some time.
• 54:25
  I would love to hear some suggestions about what you all want to hear about.
• 54:30
  Send us some DMs, comment on our TikToks, our Instagram posts.
• 54:35
  What topics would you like us to dive into and just talk for hours and hours and hours
• 54:41
  about?
• 54:42
  And if you don't, we're going to talk about TikTok for a long time.
• 54:48
  I feel like after four hours about talking about Babs, we deserve that.
• 54:54
  So maybe our next episode should just be, let's talk about our TikToks.
• 54:58
  I actually wouldn't mind going through, Brie and I send each other feminist TikToks, religious
• 55:04
  TikToks, constantly.
• 55:06
  All the time we're obnoxious.
• 55:08
  Anyone else would hate us.
• 55:10
  My algorithm is so messed up.
• 55:13
  Oh yeah, mine's a disaster.
• 55:14
  It's like so, so feminist, but then also like, can I tell you something about sharks that
• 55:20
  you never knew?
• 55:21
  They don't have legs.
• 55:26
  So I do think it would be fun though.
• 55:28
  I saw this one today.
• 55:30
  There's just a list of like, you know how to like make a hug great?
• 55:35
  Lean in and whisper these things.
• 55:37
  And it was like, I know what you did last summer.
• 55:41
  Or help me.
• 55:43
  Just like look back at them.
• 55:45
  Just totally normal.
• 55:46
  Or I killed Mufasa.
• 55:53
  I reposted it on my personal one.
• 55:55
  Okay, good.
• 55:56
  Not on ours.
• 55:57
  No, you can find my personal one if you want.
• 56:01
  If you guys ever see us reposting just like a lot of bizarre crap, know that Brie and
• 56:05
  I got ahold of the TikTok.
• 56:08
  I reposted I think two different ones today.
• 56:10
  Did you?
• 56:11
  Yeah.
• 56:12
  Okay, so we'll maybe do that next week because that would be kind of fun.
• 56:16
  Just go through all the weird TikToks.
• 56:18
  I bought a book and okay, so I bought it on Amazon and we share like a family Amazon account
• 56:24
  and my dad saw it and he was like, who bought this?
• 56:28
  What is this?
• 56:29
  So it's called like 109 ways to piss off men.
• 56:33
  Like, I'm, look guys, I realize that that's a little bit inflammatory and I'm not saying
• 56:40
  like, oh, we should go around and make each other angry.
• 56:43
  But I actually would really like to talk about it because I was reading through it and I
• 56:46
  was like, okay, these are hilarious, first of all.
• 56:50
  But also like, what is the base reason of why this would make a stereotypical man angry?
• 56:57
  One of them, okay, so my favorite one, if we go into it later, I'll read some more of
• 57:01
  them too, but one of my favorite ones is tell a man, I don't believe you can run that fast.
• 57:08
  And the little comments under it were like, he'll eventually figure out that you're manipulating
• 57:14
  him, but by then he'll have run so far away that you can just leave.
• 57:19
  It's like my favorite thing.
• 57:23
  So I want to talk about, so maybe we'll talk about TikToks and also that book.
• 57:26
  I think that'd be good.
• 57:27
  Grab your popcorn, grab your wine, we're in for a weird week.
• 57:31
  All right, we'll see you guys next week.
• 57:35
  May the Lord bless you and keep you.
• 57:37
  Okay.
• 57:38
  Bye.
• 57:39
  Bye.