Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Ravishankar Iyer on Storytelling: The Catalyst to Influence People and Business Growth (#040)

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Ravishankar Iyer on Storytelling: The Catalyst to Influence People and Business Growth (#040) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: In every movie, the hero is shown as facing a big problem.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: In Bahubali, the younger son has to revenge his father's death and become the king.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: In Dangal, that girl has to defeat the Australian opponent, and yeah.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: In Chakde India, the hockey team has to win.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So every time the hero has been given a specific goal or a problem, and how they tackle all odds and win is the story of that movie, right?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so it coming back to this.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So often what mistake people do when they make these presentations about a product or feature or a cloud architecture is they only talk about the solution.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, we did this, we did, hey this has got this brilliant feature, and you know, if you press this button, this happens.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we talking about this?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, who are who is the audience?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: What was the problem that they were facing?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: How is this impacting them?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to step back and tell the story, not from your product point of view.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, you're not the hero, your audience is the hero.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: You have to change your mindset completely when you're telling that story.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've been an avid follower of your newsletter, the work that you do, and uh it's quite a privilege to talk to you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for taking time and sharing your thoughts with our audience.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Sami.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh happy to be here.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uh Ravi, I just wanted to uh quickly uh dive into the subject itself, which because it's an interesting uh subject, especially uh when you really look at storytelling, uh that's becoming more and more important in the context of what we do at work, uh the way we learn, the way we communicate with people.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think uh it's fairly becoming foundational in the way we actually have to uh present ourselves to people, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore, I feel that storytelling is a very critical aspect and a skill that uh most of us need to have.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh being somebody who's completely away from you know the storytelling uh you know, kind of a uh you know, educational background, which is you're a chartered accountant, of course, you then went and did your MBA.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, where did this interest in storytelling really happen?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh any incident that you remember which triggered you to say, hey, this is something that I want to take up as my profession.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, thanks, thanks for me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh it's an interesting one.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's one that I get asked a lot, uh, especially because, you know, because of the CA degree, I keep joking that, you know, hey, you know, we all make mistakes in life, so you should not uh pull me for that.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I'm grateful.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful for that, for that time and period.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think what one way in which that supposed contradiction for me gets resolved of you know what what is a CA stroke MBA concertant doing as a storyteller, is that I uh saw me have a very wide definition of the word storytelling, right?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's it's actually uh an interesting debate in the world of storytelling.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you get into that world, there are some practitioners who have a uh reasonably um narrow definition of that word saying that you know a story means that it has to have an incident and a time and a place and dialogue and all of that, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one um variant or one version of what a story could mean.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've got kind of a very wide definition, right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and in in my mind, it is um any technique that you use to communicate your um ideas, your data, your facts, your opinions, uh, in order to sometimes just inform other people, engage them, um uh convince them.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the the only kind of you know, place where I draw my line is you're doing it with data and facts, right?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there is also uh a whole world of storytelling with fiction.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um while I do, you know, sometimes go into that world and and learn from it and apply lessons from it, but that's where I limit it.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um to me, if somebody is making uh a compelling presentation with numbers and data, which you know a lot of CAs do, uh a lot of MBAs do, they are telling a good story, right?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um a newscaster who starts his or her bulletin, they don't say here are the top facts of the night, here are the top stories of the night.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a guy like Malcolm Gladwell, who reports on the leading social science research of the day, is called a great storyteller.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Someone like Bill Bryson, who writes about science in such a beautiful, striking way, is called a great storyteller.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, John Stewart is called a great storyteller, Harsha Bogley is called a great storyteller, or Shekhar Gupta is called a great storyteller.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: To me, all of these are um ways and means of basically using the data facts, numbers, opinions, etc., from your field and uh putting it in front of an audience in an interesting way, right?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in a way that uh makes it clear to them, makes it you know clear what is happening, uh engages them better, and also hopefully convinces them about your point of view.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: So so what that is one I think way in by which I come at this skill, which is you know, take a very wide definition of it and in all of these techniques kind of encompass there.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, coming to incidents, I would say um, like yeah, there have been it's it is like in many of these things, it's probably not just one thing that completely turns you, although there is one incident that does come to mind and I will share that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think the seeds were sown when I was seven years old in Bombay.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: We used to live in a suburb called Cyan.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I must have been this has been the year 1986.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh um we that that was not the time when libraries and reading was the norm, right?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it was quite rare.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad, I remember, took me uh across the road in this main road in Cyan, and then there was a like a little like a um garage shop, and it was a library, right?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the first library I ever saw.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the first book I picked up was a Chacha Chowdhury book, right?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and you just need to do that at some level, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel that journey once it starts, that reading journey, then you're at some level you're immersing yourself in the world of stories without even knowing it.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, as as we all do, we move from Chacha Chowdhury to Tinkle and Amar Chitra Katha and Chandamama, and then you slowly pick up your first Janet Blighton, and then you run through all that famous fire and all of that, then you go to Agatha Kristi, then you graduate to a Sydney Sheldon and and uh author uh Haley and all of that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I did all of that till till 10th, I was you know just immersed in the world of this fiction storytelling, and you are absorbing, right?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're learning and all of that while school and studies is happening.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um post that somehow some switch got turned after 10th for me, where I realized that you know I I'm done with fiction.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very weird thing, and now I hardly read fiction, I don't read fiction at all, which is and now I realize it's a loss.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think I should read more fiction, but uh so non-fiction, the world is incredible, right?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I got suddenly interested in history, and you know, I got reading about you know various histories or or or even uh science storytelling, like guys like Bill Bryson, um later guys like Yual Harari, um, and so on.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think um uh invisibly or without necessarily going out to do it, I was immersing myself in the world of good stories.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was always there.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the incident that definitely you know I remember is this was in 2009 or so.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'd been a consultant for about four years, and in consulting, you're dealing with a lot of data, right?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there used to be this pride almost that I have done everything, I've looked at every possible angle, all data I have looked at, and here is proof.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, almost always uh the presentations to clients used to not be so much about um here is your problem and here's how I'm solving it.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: It used to be that you know, hey, you've paid me money, so please be ready to get blown away by the amount of work that I've done, and and which which is so counterproductive.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so clients would obviously, some of them would be too overwhelmed to react.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there were some who knew this game and who could see through it and would be like, you know, but I don't need all your data.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so one guy I actually you know went and asked him that his name was Abhishek.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he was with a firm called India Equity Partners then.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I told him, what can we do?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do to improve uh my presentations, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so his answer was actually very planned, nothing uh out of the extraordinary.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: He just said, Ravi, you guys just end up throwing a lot of data on the slide.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: You need to really find the story that's there in the data and just tell me that story.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes you just you need to hear a comment when you're prepared to hear it.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Had I heard that comment when I was five years younger, I don't think it would have meant so much to me.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: But something just struck uh maybe all the reading and everything, and and it just hit me that oh my god, yes, we are just overwhelming clients with data.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there was almost it, it doesn't happen to almost like a switch that turned to me after that time that my presentations became less heavy, less data intense, and started looking for the story more clearly from then.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, I think then from then on it it is being like building on top of that realization and learning more and more about the skill.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's fascinating that the more I learn, the more I realize, oh shit, there's so much more to learn.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So much more to yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of a long rambling answer to that uh to that question.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so which brings me to uh one interesting point that you made, Ravi, which is uh reading at an early stage in your life, right?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you carry so much of vivid uh images of various things that you read, and uh probably it comes back uh at your work, uh, you know, when you're socializing, so many things happen.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but today when you look at kids and uh when you look at uh you know education, uh the reading skills probably have dwindled, or there are other forms of reading.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh how important do you think it's uh you know uh to be started at an early stage?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or if I were uh say a youngster going out, you know, coming out of college, or I'm uh a young professional, uh, you know, I'm not used to reading so much.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I begin?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting, yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I I used to have this feeling, right, that reading is kind of a uh sine qua non to use a Latin term that you know you have to know, you have to be reading in order to be a good writer.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember interviewing uh this person called Shrihet Karkera, who is um one of the co-founders of Fin Shots, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And FinShots is one of the largest read, I think, newsletters in India uh currently, and they have this.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he was one of the first writers for it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was astounded to hear that he hardly did any reading as as a child.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, till that time I had that belief.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think it's it's fine.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: You can start anytime.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's any nowhere should you say, oh my god, I've never read as a child, now I can't.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, you can, right?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody can start at any time.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think curiosity is a more powerful thing to have.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: You should be curious at at whatever age about whatever it is that makes you curious, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it may be about fighter planes, it may be about sports, and find information about what makes you curious in in whatever way appeals to you.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um reading is just one way.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it could be YouTube videos if you find that that's your fancy.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: It could be podcasts, uh, it could be conversations with people.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so be curious and um find out more about about what what what it excites you, what interests you, and then you'll figure out ways, right?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if maybe reading is not your thing, maybe audiobooks are or or something.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say um that would be my probably, yeah, it's tough to call myself giving advice, but yeah, that would be my input to somebody who's young and who may not be able to read too much, just just be curious and follow your curiosity.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And uh what do you think are the key tenets of how uh you know you went about improving your storytelling skills?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because once Abhishek told you that, hey, uh, why don't you pick up a story and tell me the story in the data?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so how did you go about then chiseling your way through to making yourself a master of that craft?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm not necessarily calling myself a master.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, so you're right.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's definitely I've been doing it for a long time.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would still call myself a lifelog student.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um so books have been really useful.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And again, yeah, we come back to that topic, but uh, you'll see a bunch of them at the back.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um, many of these are books that have really helped me.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, I'm of course happy to share a list of some of the books that have really influenced me and and made me kind of you know, made my skill where it is.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so like off the top of my head, two, three books that are coming are Made to Stick is a is a book that really it even now I go back and when I'm doing some of the things, I'll be like, Oh, I learned this in Made to Stick.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I learned this in Made to Stick.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's by uh two guys called Chip Heath and Dan Heath.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh foundational book on storytelling, 2008 or 7 or 8.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a colleague called Rohan Desa gifted it to me, and I keep telling him, you know, this is this is kind of a life-changing book for me.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, The Pyramid Principle, uh, it's a tough book, not an easy book to read, but extremely foundational in terms of clarity in communication.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's another book that talks about clarity more in a more fundamental way.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I won't say it is an easy read, it's a tough one, but uh so that's one more that comes to mind.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a bunch of others.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I I'm happy to kind of you know put in the show notes.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I put down like 13 books.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: What was it 13?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: 12 to 13 books that really impacted me in this craft of storytelling, right?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So so that's one way that by which I learn, uh, which is I will read a book, I'll get some idea, then I will try and implement it in my um in my in my writing, of course, also now in my training.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's one um other sources of uh um of of you know input for me would be podcasts, and especially over the last six, seven years.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um often I'll get an idea from a podcast that I will again try and you know implement in writing or or in the training, or the podcast will talk about a book, which will then uh be something that that works for me.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So these are I think two main uh places.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I call it uh the the three R model, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Which is uh actually three R or 5C.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So 3R for me is reading, reflection, and writing.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So of course, reading is important.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let me talk a little bit about the reflection piece, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember uh this incident with a cousin of mine, uh called Suresh.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was one day telling him, Okay, you know what, you should be on Twitter because you learned so much, and you can immediately find out when somebody has said something, uh, you know, somebody's take on something, and you know, there's this, you know, you can follow all these people, and you know, always on top of the world, etc.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then you should listen to podcasts, and then by the way, you should have a Kindle.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And my thra, I was probably showing off a little, not cool.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, he just you know heard me out, and then he just asked me a simple question, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Ravi tu, and I'll say it in Hindi and translate that to it, and if you read so much, when do you think?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of hit me, and he was right, and there is this tendency that we all have as um as knowledge professionals to fill in every um white space in our day, every minute in our day with something.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I also do it, right?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm going down in a lift, I'll be like, okay, let me quickly not waste this 30 seconds of precious time, but see what I can read or or something.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh by well, that yeah, it's it's a natural tendency.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I do try to carve out reflection periods.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um we all have heard of the shower moment, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Where you're in the shower and then suddenly an idea that or suddenly a problem that you have not been able to crack, you'll you'll get an idea.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I like it so often I get shower moments that I'll be like, should I spend more time in the shower?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Should I take two baths a day?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's crazy.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think yeah, reflection is the second part of it.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: We should do more of it if you're not, and then and then writing, because um often what seems like an idea that uh is very uh well formed in your head kind of crumbles when it hits paper.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So so you should write, you should uh create in some way.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if if writing is not your jam, then um record yourself or you know have a conversation with somebody.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, uh writing is easiest because you know you there's no paraphernalia, but uh yeah, I would say um read, reflect, write, and and then repeat to keep to keep getting that brilliant.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I just want to uh you know move to an important aspect of this conversation where I'm interested to know the uh impact of storytelling and learning, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh why is it that uh you know uh we read so much in school, okay, and we are taught uh lots of formula, lots of uh you know subjects, and uh we don't seem to retain what we learned.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: So uh if uh we have to retain uh what we learned, uh how can storytelling help?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe you know in history there's an interesting way to do storytelling in geography, there could be storytelling opportunities, but what do you do in a subject like math, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: You can't storytell most of the time.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Is the myth that people have?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So is there a way to actually use storytelling in enhancing learning?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, which is one of my kind of topics that I really am passionate about.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've been working with some teachers from our son's school.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in fact, one of my, you know, not long term, but maybe this year's goals is to create some sort of videos on uh storytelling techniques for education and and then just put it up there.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, very much right.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately, a lot of education is uh chalk and talk variety, which is you know, you just go on a blackboard and you know just keep talking.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what are some ways in which and yeah, you're right, math is a difficult one.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not definitely it's relatively easier in in uh history, geography, also science.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think these are subjects where uh uh there are stories more naturally found, math is more abstract uh naturally.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it still can be done, right?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: It still can be done.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what are some of the ways?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And let me kind of you know put down some broad techniques.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So make people feel multiple senses, that's that's one way to do it.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, make them do uh activities and stuff around it, um, and three, uh make them care as to why this is important.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I I would kind of you know use these three to to share some techniques.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So make them feel, and feel is that uh we we don't have just one sense, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Which is our eyes, we have multiple senses.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: So can you um make people engage with something with multiple senses?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so in math itself, one example that comes to mind, which is we don't actually, while we are engaging quote unquote with our eyes, we are actually engaging in math with our brain because our eyes are seeing just symbols and numbers, right?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: But um, can we use pictures to to make math easier, for example?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's one example that I remember from um a book called The Joy of X.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's this author called Steven Strog Strogatz, and uh, he's a I think NYT column columnist, and he's a math prof prof and a geek, but he is amazing at his ability to make math more accessible.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I was I didn't have a great relationship with math growing up, especially calculus, and I wish I had read somebody like him when he was younger.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember this um example he used about the area of the circle, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, how are we taught the area of the circle?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: We are not taught how, we just taught this is it, pi r square.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the area of the circle.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Please buy hard this formula and then apply it now in sums.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, can you explain why is it pi r square?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So now he tries to do that, do that in the book in the in a simple way by basically taking a circle, and you know, I'll have to kind of you know put a link to that to that post or something because it's difficult to visualize in an audio medium, and then dividing that into let's say four parts, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, imagine them as four uh quarters.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now divide that further into more into you know 16 and then further into 32.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, what you'll be left with are many slices, like you know, many thin things, think of many thin pizza slices, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what he then does is to try and combine those pizza slices into a form where uh if you lay them, you know, one slice uh top down and one bottom up, and you lay them side by side, it broadly represents a rectangle, very, very broadly.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's not exactly a rectangle because there is some curvature on all on the top and the bottom, but it broadly emerges like a rectangle.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And in that rectangle, what you will find is that one side is r because it's the radius, and um the other side is is pi r uh which is which is the you know circumference half.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So pi r into r, that's how it becomes pi r square, like a area of a rectangle is very easy to is you know to demonstrate, right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was one visual way in which he brought out the the proof of Um of yeah, of course, you know the real proof is done through calculus, and you know that gets you know too technical.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, so he uses in in a way visual uh metaphors to to make that uh thing uh you know easier.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So even math, I think it it is it is possible.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh make me uh feel has so many other uh elements, right?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So make me feel about the person who came out with the formula or with the discovery, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there are some brilliant stories in science about the inventors, about you know, Ramanujam's story, and you know, you make suddenly you make me feel about Ramanujam.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know more about you know his math also.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh make me feel about Newton and you know, a lot of these scientists were at the end of the day, they were also having their squabbles and and competitions and jealousies, and you know, all of that is is interesting.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It gives you more color uh about that, about that uh the discovery.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is one.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh make me do, right?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Which is uh um make me engage in civic activities.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh make me part of a role play where I'm trying to uh come up with a common policy for how will we, what will we do during a break period in school.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Once you start you know debating with other people, you realize that it's not easy to pass policy.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, surprisingly, people are not listening to everything I have to say.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of telling you that you know this is how policy is passed in parliament, you just try as five people coming up with a common, yeah, it's you realize it's not easy.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So make me do in in small ways in my own, yeah, and then can I um therefore learn that, extrapolate that and learn that, you know, now it's I realize it's not easy.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Make me care, which is also, you know, we hardly do that, which is that you know, where do I learn and where do I use this?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me five real life examples where I'm going to be using quadratic equations?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether it has any use.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it has a, I'm sure it has some you know genuine use, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think, and there are various, I think, uh, once you kind of think into this, various ways in which you can uh make uh um all of these elements interesting uh by making people you know think, feel, do, and care.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: I really like the uh way you explain the PyR Squared example, and in fact, in uh uh one of the Contramines podcasts itself, we have a professor uh from uh IIT, Gandhi Nagar, who teaches math through toys.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Money is Jay.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it's an interesting episode that we have.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that'll be a good uh show notes for this uh you know uh episode, and uh he really explains parabola through very interesting uh ways of uh doing it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's a great example.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: So let me now come back to uh you know storytelling at work, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because one thing that I find uh is uh once you uh you know start to work, you become more rational.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you become uh very, very uh I would call it straight jacketed, and storytelling is a little bit loose, right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you feel that, oh, you know what?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I just don't uh think you're for you're you know coming to the point so easily, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore, you tend to meander, and therefore, at work, people then get too straight jacketed, they want to actually have an answer to the problem.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you think at work uh you found storytelling to be of value and why do you think it's value?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's a huge value, right?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh stories can clarify better, a good story can clarify better, it can engage better, um, and it's likely to be more memorable, right?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So let me give you a you know a way of you know why stories are important and then how can can be uh so if you um we're talking about school and what we learn, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: If I ask you in trigonometry what is sign theta, I don't remember.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if I ask 10 people 100 people, I don't think you know maybe 10 people might remember, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: If I ask you in which year did the second battle of Panipat happen, very less chance that you will remember.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: But if I ask you um what is the moral of the hair and the tortoise, you know, fable slow and steady wins the race, like everybody will remember that very clearly, right?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we remember stories, and that's because we've been dealing with stories as a mode of passing information since millennia.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um when humans were living in caves at the end of a long, tiring day, when you meet around sit around the fireplace, you're not going to be you know watching Netflix or showing PowerPoint slides, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: You are exchanging stories.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: But those stories had life-saving information embedded in them.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I will not come back and then say that, hey, here are three lessons from my hunt today.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do that, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I will say, hey, you know what?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I went there and then I was climbing, and then suddenly I heard this growl and I went up to the tree and I was hiding there, then the bear came and went away, and then thankfully I was fine and I came back.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now I am absorbing the lessons from that, right?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we have learned through stories for millennia.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that that DNA is always there.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, at the workplace, yeah, it it's not about always meandering and and going all around the place.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are some situations where you may want to um tease the audience, make it a little bit of a mystery, and there are some situations where that works brilliantly, but that's not the only mode of telling a good story, right?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, uh telling something clearly to the point uh in a good way is also an example of good storytelling, right?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that is not a skill that everybody necessarily has.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Often people say, I'm gonna only tell the facts, but then the facts are told in such a detailed um lack of focus way that the audience at the end of it who's listening is what is your point?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: What are you trying to get at?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um, even the skill of getting to the point is for me a storytelling skill, and which is where the book that I mentioned, the pyramid principle, and you know, I have a framework called as a 139 framework where you should be able to communicate anything in a one-sentence summary, in three sentences, and then in nine.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you have to prepare beforehand to do that, right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, that to me is a storytelling technique.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so even communicating bluntly requires skill, and that that is also something that can be done.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Having said that, in some situations, everything is not about you know just directly dedicating to the point.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, you're you know having a large audience in a town hall, and maybe you want to engage them by talking about a personal anecdote about you know what happened, or you saw an exemplary um case of somebody living your company's value, um, or some employee who did an extraordinary achievement.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: You want to tell that story, or you want to tell a story of your own life, which um you know where you learned something and you want to be vulnerable.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: All of those are also examples of stories, and you may not necessarily directly say the point, hey guys, the point of the story is that I'm gonna no, it's you know, you tell that story and the people will get that point.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's also a type of storytelling.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think depending upon the audience, the context, um, the data that you have, um the the the easy and the tough answer is that uh you the tough part of this is you have to um you know innovate and adapt.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, know all the tools that are available to you as a storyteller and use the right tool for the for the right job context and and audience.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: So uh as you are talking, Ravi, uh one thing that came across my mind is when you want to storytell, uh is there a fiber of honesty and authenticity uh that is prerequisite?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh, you know, you can deliver a message, you can deliver a communication, but to deliver a story, uh that's there's a bit of that authenticity and honesty uh that that is needed in anything that you do, and therefore, great storytellers, in my view, from what I think you were talking about, are people who are probably very authentic in what uh you know what they do, and therefore the ability to tell the story is far more uh effective.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that is that a good assumption to make?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh is that a is that does that make sense to you at all?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very much uh Somee.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Completely critical, right?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is one of the biggest uh pushbacks that you will get, or you know, the the wrong assumptions that people have that area, right?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he just keeps telling stories, and you know, the assumption is that stories is fiction and there is fact, and they're both are very different.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's not true, right?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you know, as I mentioned, there is a world of fiction in storytelling, but don't um look, be be very, I'm telling the listeners of this podcast that be self.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean think about your own growth, right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: That just because somebody in your organization uses quote unquote storytelling in a bad way.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say they're they are not being authentic, they're not doing the right thing, um, and they give a bad reputation to the word or term storytelling, that doesn't mean you have to say that you know, just because that guy does it badly, I will not use this technique at all.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make sense, right?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let that person do what he or she wants.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: You don't miss out on the benefits you can get by being an authentic storyteller, right?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're assuming, I'm assuming that you know the person who wants to apply this is genuine and honest.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so what does he or she keep need to keep in mind?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I call it the ACE model, A, C, E.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a big storyteller, you need to have A, C, and E.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is A?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: A is authenticity.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot tell a story with lies with fiction, um, unless you tell it upfront that you know, hey, hey, this reminds me of that fable, then it's fine because you're telling, or this reminds me of that movie story, you're telling it is fiction.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're telling that, hey, this is what uh the data is telling, then to the extent possible.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, you know, data can be complicated and you may miss out on some elements genuinely.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're, you know, you should you should uh do your best to have the entire complete truth.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And authenticity to me, uh Swami is alignment, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Alignment between three things.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, alignment between your thoughts and your words.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: That means you're able to say what you think in a clear way, um, not you know mincing words, not uh saying thinking one thing but saying something else, um, which we we know a lot of people tend to do that.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and alignment between your words and your actions.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you say a lot of things but you don't follow it up, if you are a uh you know a person who constantly is berating your team, and then you go up in a company offsite and then say, hey, respect is very important, but you don't actually respect your people.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's no alignment between your words and your actions.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: So thoughts, words, actions have to be aligned for you to be a good storyteller.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then what is C and D, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So C to me is um is clarity and the comprehensive um uh data and facts, right?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So often what may happen is that you feel that I'm authentic and I have complete, you know, I I believe this completely, but you probably don't have the data and facts to back it up.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the example that I keep thinking of is sometimes in nonprofits what happens is people are so passionate and they believe that, you know, yes, we must do this and we must, this is the biggest problem that needs to be solved.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Have you looked at the data?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really the biggest problem that needs to be solved?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, be a uh and especially our biases come into play, emotions come into play.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, unemotionally, can you actually look at the data with other people?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Does the data support your authentic belief?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So just try and look at that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the second part of it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the third part, which kind of comes in a way as a counterbalance to authenticity, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people use authenticity to say free pass.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can say what I feel.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't like somebody, I can just, you know, berate them in front of everybody.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being authentic, right?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you telling me be authentic.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what is your problem if I, you know, uh authentically berate everybody in my.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't honestly feel that, you know.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying that's why I'm doing it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the third E to me is empathy.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're you have to be empathetic to your audience and um look at you know what whatever you're saying, um, how will they think and how will they feel when you're saying what you're saying, right?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So have that balance between authenticity and empathy.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And empathy means two, three things, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: One is that if I'm explaining something complicated, then immediately the empathy part in my mind should realize, oh, are you getting it or not?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if I'm using Hindi in a podcast, immediately, oh, there might be audiences who don't understand Hindi.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let me quickly translate.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if I'm using jargon that only my team or my company understands, oh no, my audience may not understand this jargon.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let me stop.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that empathy meter, tuk tuk, tuk, should we keep ringing when it perceives that this guy may not understand it, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or you're you know looking for facial cues and body language cues that you know this is not going through.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that's on the understanding and empathy also on the so what is the audience thinking and what is what are they feeling, right?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a trickier one.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I I did yeah people struggle with this more often than than not.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that I I may say something very bluntly, but uh is that is that the best thing to do?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the best way to say it?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can I be more empathetic in saying something which needs to be said, but um in a nicer way, so that it doesn't crush or defeat that person.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's a good model for people to keep in mind, the ACE model, authenticity, uh the clear comprehensive truth, and and the empathy.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so we talked about authenticity, and uh so imagine uh you know uh uh there has been a crisis in the company, uh, you know, sales are down.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I have a sales meeting and I am the sales head, right?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now there are two ways to manage this.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: One is to actually go back and uh you know talk about budget versus achievement versus ability to uh you know uh get action, which is much better than what we did last month.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so therefore, if I were a sales head, how would I use a story?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: And there is a real negative situation where I'm down by you know 40%.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you know you just can't uh you know stay away from that fact, right?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that's one thing that I wanted, uh, you know, uh how would you go about doing it?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, yeah.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So no, this is um also one of those tough situations, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not an easy situation.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I actually believe sometimes bad news delivery is an opportunity for a good storyteller to build his or her reputation or brand.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because often, the majority of the times when you have bad news to deliver, people try and sugarcoat it, hide hide is the worst thing, or sugarcoat is saying that you know, hey, it's not bad.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, that division did not do too badly.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Overall, I know we didn't achieve, but this division did a good thing, and you know, in this month we were still okay, and so on, right?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the audience is hearing all of this and saying, Are you hiding something?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: So then every time you share something, the audience is like, you know, can I really trust this person?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Even if there is actually genuinely good news, they'll be like, No, I'm not so sure, right?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um, trust is the bedrock of any relationship.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: So as a communicator, you have to constantly keep that in mind.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, my um the suggestion for people when they have to give bad news uh is two parts, right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: One is lay it out.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the I call it the what, why, what next framework.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't um beat around the bush, directly say, and you know, I I would kind of you know the wording could be something like this that hey guys, okay, um, let me be upfront here.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have great news to share this quarter, so I'm gonna be upfront.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we have not met our targets, we have fallen short by 20%, or we are not going to be able to meet our incentives this.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm gonna tell you our analysis of why that has happened and what are we going to do to make amends, to make things better again.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to immediately follow up the what with the why, and that why has to be as deep as possible, go to the root cause of it.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to do that hard work before you start this communication, and then have uh an action plan to get out of that mess, right?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, even if you are completely not having it on you want audience, then you can say, you know, we've got some ideas, but we'd love for you to come and help us to build this action plan.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the what, why, what next will tell people that at least you're being upfront and I can trust you, and if things are bad, you're not gonna hide it from me.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I can also I sense that you're in some form of control to try and do it, and hopefully, you know, things will become better from there.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um then you know it's not just about being logical and analytical and you know, doing this, you can also think of stories to inspire, and especially towards the end, right?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: When people are um a little disillusioned or thinking that you know, can we really do this?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not um this seems too tall an order, and this has been such a bad quarter.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: How will we turn things around?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Think of examples and stories ideally from your own firm from the past.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure if you dig, especially if it's a reasonably you know tenured firm, you will find enough examples from the past, right?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: That this happened, very difficult situation came in the past, and it seemed all down and out, but this is what we did, and this is how we raised, right?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, an inspiring story from your own firm from the past, ideally, if you're telling that story, don't reveal the ending, right?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can you know make it like a mystery.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, I want to tell you something that you know in 19, or no, maybe not as far back as that, in 2017, uh, there was a team which was struggling, and then they had this, and then metrics had fallen, and then they decided to do something, and by 2019 it all came back.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, you know what that which was that team?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was this team.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, towards the end, when you kind of you know bring it out as a surprising thing, then that element of surprise and you know that inspiration all kind of fit you together.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have your own firm, I think that's a great way to end with this sort of a conversation.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know of a guy who would was brilliant at motivating frontline salespeople because there it becomes very emotion-driven.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he would happily take examples from movies, and then he will say that you know uh Dibar movie may ek Raheem Chacha Thya or Vijaya.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: There was a Raheem Chacha character and a Vijaya.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: This but Vijay was the one who said that I will not pay the two rupee, whatever, fine, and I I will fight.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I need Vijay's in my team.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need Raim Chachas in my team.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he will use these analogies from movies and all, and uh Vishhal Amravat from B Able.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant storyteller, but that you know works with that audience, right?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, as I mentioned, a lot of these are context and this dependent.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: But in a in a in a senior corporate audience, I would definitely suggest uh what by what next so that people have that assurance.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um if if there is possible, then use an inspiring story from your own team, from a similar team.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: That that that's a good way for people to end it.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: We interview and learn from high performers so that you can apply these lessons on your journey to becoming the knowledge worker athlete you are meant to be.
• 41:58
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• 42:02
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• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And now back to the show.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: So walk me through the framework you talked about.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: The 139 framework, right?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's uh right time uh for us to talk about it, and especially if I'm uh somebody in a company, uh if I want to start the deliberate uh sorry, the deliberate practice of uh you know uh learning to storytell.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so what is this one three nine framework and walk us uh walk us through it?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, happy to.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um so let me kind of take a step back often that um you know I you might have heard me use a framework quite a bit now.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a bit of a nerd for frameworks, and there's a reason for it.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel that a framework is a handy tool for um solving a problem in a tried and tested way.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's no framework is perfect, that there's a famous thing, right?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all models are wrong, but some are useful.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: So all frameworks are imperfect or or wrong, but some are useful.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to kind of you know take it with that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I um have uh on on some of my, I can share this with you, a framework of frameworks because at the end of the day, 139 is one small framework that sits within a larger that sits within a larger framework.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's one way to kind of in fact I agree with you on that, uh Ravi.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think the way I see frameworks is uh uh it allows you to actually it's almost like a uh you know uh a small pigeon hole of concept that you can keep it there and you can pull it out, and you can actually uh and therefore you've got lots of pigeon holes, and you basically each is a framework, but you need to pull it out as and when that is needed.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really how I see frameworks.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well said, yeah, and that that's Skill comes with, you know, which framework to use in which situation is uh is a skill with comes with practice.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's the art part of storytelling.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um so 139 for me is a way to build your story narrative, right?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let me see tell you where that build story narrative comes within a story, and I think it might be useful to talk about the ABCD process or again framework for one word.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so because that's where it it's easy to.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: So any storyteller broadly is going through these four steps, right?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: A is align with your audience.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you going to present to?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: What is their seniority?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is their background?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: What do they already know about the topic?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: What are their objectives from that uh session?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: What are their fears and worries and concerns?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, as much as possible, if you can uh research your audience and know about their background, um, becomes easier for you to tailor and customize your story, right?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: So aligning with them, aligning with the I call them aligning with the audience, the data, the metrics, uh, everything.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: The B is building the story narrative, right?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: So once you know your audience, don't start on a PowerPoint slide directly, right?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the PowerPoint will come later.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: On paper or Word document, write down your story in sentences and um sentences as in messages, not in terms of saying, I will talk to them about the project need, then I will talk about the key findings and then the implications and the next steps.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is not a story, that is a list of agenda items, right?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: So instead, if I were to kind of take uh an example of a review, right?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: A quarterly review.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: So uh an agenda for a review would be uh revenue review, cost, profitability, next steps.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Tells me nothing, right?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, our revenue grew by 12% higher than target, mainly driven by South region and um the new pricing strategy.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: That is one whole big sentence.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: On the cost side, we managed to rein in employee cost um and um materials, thereby pushing up EBITDA by 30 BPS.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Final the next steps.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we therefore need to continue this momentum but address some concerns in division A.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: So now these three are my broad three messages that I want to give in that year.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And those three will then get a one-line summary, which is that you know, revenue broadly doing good, a bit uh improving, but concern on division A.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then within revenue, cut that one line, it will further get divided.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, overall revenue grew by much.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in South, what what really drove the growth?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in pricing strategy, what really happened?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then cost again, you go into you know employee, what happened, in uh material what happened, and so on.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then similarly on the this.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then each of those can then further, as you can imagine, drill down further, right?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you're building out the story like this.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: It will, if you know your data, it will not take you more than half an hour to do this.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that half an hour will give you so much clarity, and then your presentation preparation becomes easier, far, far easier.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, this building the story narrative is a crucial.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say it's 70% of your success rests on how well you do this.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: It should be so good that even if you don't have your slides, you're sitting standing in an elevator with your with your uh audience, you should be able to tell that story, right?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh majority of my uh coaching and training time also goes into the story narrative piece.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh so in the narrative, the 139 framework comes, and I kind of you know give you a rough example of that, right?
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of have three lines and then a one-line summary, and then further.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there are other elements to narrative also, like adding elements of surprise, adding personal stories, adding analogies, and so on.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, that to me is more making it interesting, not more, not just clear.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, the 1399 is a tool for clarity, uh, these are tools for engagement.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, that's broadly on the on the build your story narrative, the B part.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: C uh is choosing the right visuals and the slide because you know we are visual creatures, we understand visuals better, and D is for delivering with impact.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, there are some techniques around that also.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, broadly can remember A, B, C, D.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, audience, build your story narrative, choose the right uh charts and visuals, and deliver with impact and spend the most time on the narrative piece.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice, very nice.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, so it almost uh when you were explaining it uh and talking to me about the key messages.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Often, when I see PowerPoint presentations, you start with the agenda.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, imagine that you were to completely uh you know unbox and actually say what is the story one that I'm going to talk about, what is the story two I'm going to talk about, and then you know it becomes the agenda for the presentation.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it almost is you are almost saying that uh don't start with agenda, start with the story and then go to the agenda because agenda stories give you an agenda, agenda cannot give you a story.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, almost is what I would agree.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I sometimes I say it's okay to have an agenda slide in addition to the story slide.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: I call it the exact summary slide, which is in one slide you're summarizing all the messages, all the findings, the recommendation, everything from that for that presentation, right?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: And in doing so, the the framework that works best is 139.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm happy to share a post on that in the show notes.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and more importantly, I think uh the way I am seeing it is of course you will have the agenda, but uh as you're building it, you are actually thinking about the story rather than in this agenda what I'm what story am I going to say.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the most important uh you know takeaway that uh that I have for that.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that's a very nice way of actually building uh so uh imagine if I were uh you know doing a uh uh you know a product design.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh, and uh you know I have to tell the design story.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay uh uh would would you think a similar uh you know concept works, or is there any other small uh tweaks that one needs to do?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, in software it's largely code, it's largely tech, uh uh you know it's very, very uh you know left-brain thinking.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, if I were to actually look at presenting a cloud architecture, okay, uh, how do I tell a story there?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, you're really talking about concurrent users, you're talking about you know bits per second.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you tell a story there?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Everywhere, the the principles apply everywhere, right?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: So 139 is like an empty vessel, so you can fit any type of story there, it could be anything.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's one advantage there.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes people then get confused what do I put in the first bucket?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do I is there like a guideline for telling me that you know this is how you can, these are the an indicative set of questions that you can use to do that.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And in situations like these, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there are probably two, I mean, there are multiple types of presentations, but one way to divide them is to two types for me.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are um one is like a review, data review presentation, right?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Which is okay, last quarter, how much have we done?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whether it is numbers, whether it is metrics, whether it is financials, etc.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that is one.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: The second is kind of the example that you're talking about, right?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: That I'm built something new, a new product, a new feature, etc.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to talk about it, right?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about the numbers, it'll be there within that, but it's not just about that.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, or I want to pitch about my company, my team, my product.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, in all of those, um the 139 is like an empty vessel, right?
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, what might be a good way to fill that vessel?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, one framework, story framework that comes handy there is a very old one again called the Hero's Journey.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this was um came out with this guy called Joseph Campbell, right?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he was a literature prof in the US.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: He did a very interesting exercise where he studied um mythologies of all cultures.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: So he studied Hindu mythology, he studied um uh Greek and and Norse and all of those.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, one fascinating finding that he came out with was that irrespective of you know these different mythologies across thousands of miles of spread out, the underlying story structure is the same across all of these.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he called that story structure the hero's journey.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very famous visual, you know, if you search hero's journey, you'll immediately get it on online and Wikipedia and all.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's very inspirational.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently, uh George Lucas, right?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: He was inspired by it, and he's he's used that for uh the Star Wars movies and and many others, right?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's great, but it's a little tricky from a business user's point of view, uh, because it's it's a little esoteric in its language and stuff.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I have done is to use that and make it into a simpler framework for business audiences, and it'll it is useful in all the situations product, cloud architecture, and all of that, which is um very simply, uh I call it the seven C's model because there are seven C's that come the letter C.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but very simply the model is nothing, uh Sami, but saying there is a problem faced by a certain audience, and here is a solution for that problem.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a problem solution framework, nothing else, right?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets more complicated than that.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like that's what every movie also does, right?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: What does every that's why the hero's journey works?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because in every movie, the hero is shown as facing a big problem.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: In Bahubali, the younger son has to revenge his father's death and become the king.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in Dangal, that girl has to defeat the Australian opponent, and yeah.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: In Chagde, India, the hockey team has to win.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So every time the hero has been given a specific goal or a problem, and how they tackle all odds and win is the story of that movie, right?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so it coming back to this.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, often what mistake people do when they make these presentations about a product or feature or a cloud architecture is they only talk about the solution.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, we did this, we did, hey this has got this brilliant feature, and you know, if you press this button, this happens.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we talking about this?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, who are who is the audience?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: What was the problem that they were facing?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: How is this impacting them?
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to step back and tell the story, not from your product point of view.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, you're not the hero.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Your audience is the hero.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: You have to change your mindset completely when you're telling that story.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to tell for the cloud architecture who is going to be using that architecture?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Acha, these kind of companies or this kind of user, right?
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: Tell the story from their point of view.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: How was their life before you even came out, before that product even came out?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so the first C in that seventh East model is the context, right?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: What was their life's context?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: They were going about, they had, you know, on-prem, all these uh, you know, servers that were there, and things were going fine.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next C is a change.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's some change or disruption that comes into their life.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, change and disruption can be sudden, um, like like uh demonetization, right?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was a sudden disruptive change.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: On one fell swoop, suddenly you couldn't use cash.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then that led to all this adoption of digital technology.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even in maybe in a software server case, that could be a sudden thing that you know, one day servers crashed, right?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we were like, oh my god, we can never have this, you know, we can't rely on our own servers.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have to have backup and all.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is one, or it could be um a trend, and most changes are like a gradual change and trend, right?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh 2005-6, who would think about cloud software, right?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: But over a period of 10, 15, 20 years, um, with so many things happening, you know, it's it's becoming more robust, it is becoming cheaper, it is becoming more faster, um, anywhere access, all these trends are happening, right?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so eventually, as a again, I'm I'm going back to the user of the cloud architecture, not the builder.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: My context was I was happy with on-prem, but then life is changing.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um then it comes to this third C, which is a conflict, which is a key goal or a problem.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: My problem as a user is I want to continue to serve my you know software users with high reliability and all of that, with a low cost and uh fast and whatever, right?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can I continue to do that whilst remaining on-prem?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, which is where the conclusion, the next part comes in, part A of the conclusion, that I need to think of a move to cloud.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or I need to make this.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm already on the cloud, I need to make this big change in my architecture to the cloud.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or I need to start using this ERP software product.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or whatever, right?
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Whichever is a big leap.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, this part of the story, and in in most of these movies stories, they will show the hero grappling with this question that you know, can I do this?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can I do this?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is with me.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there is, you know, in the hero journey they call it as a threshold that uh you almost always have like a guru or a guide who will, you know, be like Yoda is a is a quintessential guide in Star Wars, um, who will, you know, uh cajole, encourage, push the hero to do uh what should be the right thing.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so you you're kind of almost acting like that for the for the audience.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then saying, hey, you must move to this.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, once you do that, once you take the call that no, I must move to cloud or I must take on this ERP software, the next two Cs are the challenges encounters, which is I will have a lot of doubts.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, will it work?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: What about reliability?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what if things go south?
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: What if there is a ransomware attack or whatever, right?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to list down by being empathetic again, what all are possible issues that my audience, again, that the hero will face in this journey of migration from on-prem to cloud.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'll list down all the now, there could be like in theory limitless objections, but prioritize and then say, okay, these are the top five, top seven, top ten objections.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: For each objection, for each challenge that they are throwing at you, you have to have a counter.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, you worry about ransomware, don't worry, you know, this is the way the systems have been built that you know, nothing will happen.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: You worry about reliability, this is you worry about cost, don't worry, you can try it and whatever.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: So for everything, you need to have like a counter.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and hopefully your your counters are strong enough when you're able to convince.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're able to convince, then the the last two C's are, you know, you you give them a happy ending, happy conclusion where you give them the show them the benefit of the move, uh, not just the features.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the final C in my model is a call to action where you say, Okay, guys, you know, you you should do it, do it now so that uh you you don't miss out on this upgrade period or or whatever.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a seven C's model, and again, happy to share that with you.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that that allows you to kind of put it in that uh 139 framework, right?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe in the first box I will put the context and the the change, and then then I'll talk about the conflict and then the challenges, counters, and the conclusion, so something like that.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: So so uh so one question that I have uh is we are not taught to be contemplative, especially if you are a data scientist or you know in this age of data where you need to do storytelling, right?
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you're not taught to be contemplative.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh the second thing is uh, you know, uh frankly, very few people understand aesthetics, right?
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: So so when we when you are talking about uh you know storytelling, uh there's a you know there's a sense of color, there's a sense of feeling, there's a sense of uh you know emotion, and uh you're not taught that so easily, right?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so therefore, how important is that?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, if I were an engineer developing a mobile app, okay, I think there'll be a you know user's journey that will be there, there's a story there.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: But most importantly, what I also realize is when you're doing the UI UX design, uh, you know, this you know, how will what's the story that the hero will uh you know take away?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore, this thing around contemplativeness, the thing around aesthetics, uh, as much as uh you know uh the uh you know the hard facts, uh, how do you really marry them?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it requires a certain uh you know sense of uh practice that you need to start uh building.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you think so?
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that not very important?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it is definitely uh Swami.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um aesthetics, I may have a slightly differing point of view.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'll come to that, but contemplation is incredibly important, right?
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I keep telling people that um don't be working on the analysis and the data till all the time, right?
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: You you you can do, you know, to to no end you can keep analyzing, but ever so often step back and think, and you know, actually take physically take yourself out of the situation if possible without your smartphone, right?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, go on a walk, go on a cycle ride, take showers, whatever works for you.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh um it sometimes I actually, you know, when I before I go, I've done this you know on cycle rides.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll give my mind a problem that you know I'm I'm getting stuck on this piece I'm writing, I don't know what to do, and that's it.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm thinking, thinking, and then nothing comes, nothing comes.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly, while I take a turn, something will strike, right?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you'll you'll surprise yourself.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I I highly, highly recommend any reflection practice that works for you.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: People talk about meditation.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not gone there yet.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I wish, I I think, and although they say in meditation you should not be thinking anything, so but yeah, I think any contemplation practice, uh whether it is through a combination of exercise or or whatever, you should do.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um aesthetic is interesting, right?
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: That um can get a little tricky if some people say, but I don't have an aesthetic sense.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: And my response to them is that yeah, fair enough.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like even I'm not like a uh visually gifted person, right?
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I would not, you know, my my if you look at the clothes that I wear or whatever, people will be like, you know, it's you're very dull and boring.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's fine.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh what you should use visuals for definitely, whether or not you are aesthetically gifted, is for clarity.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot is easy to learn.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's almost like a science.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does that mean?
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: That means that when you're showcasing something, um, whether it is on a slide, whether it is, you know, even on an email, if you are putting too much information at one go, you are putting a lot of cognitive load on the audience, right?
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the time, design is of course about you know what color will go with what else, but more importantly, it's about simplicity.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there is this famous line that I I can't you know remember now, but it's the true the hallmark of a good design is when not when there's anything more to be added, but when there's nothing left to be removed from there, right?
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to keep removing stuff that does not add value.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Remove clutter, and um, it might go down to as a basic thing as saying on charts.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got uh a column chart, right, think of a column chart and you've got numbers on top of those column charts, right?
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: You you've got a revenue growth or whatever.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what often that chart will also have the grid lines at the back and it will have a scale with numbers.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the grid lines and the scale don't add any value in that chart because I'm seeing the numbers directly.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need the remove that.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you may have uh an unnecessary uh placement of you know border, you can remove that.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: So remove any item that um that doesn't add any value.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's step one, that's like an easy low-hanging fruit.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: More importantly, the second step most people don't do um, which is use the principle of visual hierarchy.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a design principle, and there's a very easy-to-learn design principle.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to become an aesthetic artist or whatever, right?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Visual visual hierarchy is just this.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: In your um any document, it may be a uh a poster, it may be an email, it may be a slide, of course.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: Identify that what is your core message, of course.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your slide should have a clear message on the top, and then to demonstrate that message, what are the three to five elements that need to be highlighted on that slide?
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally, not more than that.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: Highlight those in your company's brand color, right?
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about saying what color format, no, your company has a brand color, take that brand color and highlight that.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Everything else, here is the easiest solution for you.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't scratch your brain, use the color gray, right?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got a chart, for example, that shows um your company's growth by region across time.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: And say let's say you've got four regions and you've got you know three years.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: So four into three, twelve, you'll have twelve bars, and then that'll be it, it'll be quite crowded.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um let me make it a little more complicated, right?
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of four, you've got seven regions.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: So seven into three, twenty one bars.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: So suddenly you've got twenty one data points.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite a bit.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: But your message on the top says that we have seen strong growth overall driven by region A and B semicolon.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: However, F is a concern.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: So now you've got three things to highlight A, B, and F.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do with the rest?
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: You keep them on the slide, but you use shades of the color gray to push them to the back.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this will mean a little extra work because Excel will automatically.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Give multiple colors to everything, right?
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: A little extra work in that formatting of the slide, but it will save the audience's time in making it much faster for them to because their eyes will directly go to the A, B, and F.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so what they saw on the top, they can um with uh you know in a fraction of a second, they can quickly see that got it.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, A is going up, B is going up, F is coming down.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, why is it happening?
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the next slide we'll talk about it.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you that's visual hierarchy, right?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you can wise recall hierarchy because some things are like visually, it's almost like a 3D thing.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: One is ahead and the other is in the background.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and anybody can do that, right?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you will see examples of that all around you.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just start looking at apps that you use.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you will find that more often than not, unnecessary things are pushed to the back with the color gray.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: Websites, everywhere people add advertisements.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: So people use this, it's it's not um, you know, and it's definitely not rocket science.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that even if you are not, quote unquote, uh a design person or an aesthetically gifted person, it's something that you can do.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, so one of the things that I almost say uh if you are a good storyteller, is uh you know what you are not talking, uh which is in the slide, okay, uh, is also a very important thing because most often what happens is that you just repeat what is there in the slide.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, uh, you know, if you are if you want to build good storytelling skills, uh try not to uh you know repeat what is there in the slide, but it is important what is it that you're going to be you know conveying uh in that uh you know uh by that slide.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a very important factor?
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: Very much, very much.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh the so a couple of things that come to mind here, Swami, that one is that you ideally, you know, I know this is not, we are not in an ideal, in an ideal world, you should have two presentations or two versions of your presentation, right?
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: So one version is the to be read version because eventually you'll have to send something to somebody either before as a pre-read or a post-read.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is where the text is there, right?
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you create that first because let's face it, you know, that that has to be done no matter what.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: But ideally, before you are going to present it, now I don't recommend to do this for every presentation.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing one presentation a week, you will not have the time to do this.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing one presentation to the CEO in a quarter or some senior person, right?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: Those are high-stakes communication events.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do not apply the problem is we're like, uh-huh.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've done this worker, I know, I know.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's fine, I'll know I'll manage, I'll I'll answer any question.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: You are not going for a QA session, you're going for a presentation, and you have a chance to impress and make it easier, right?
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: So reduce the text on the slide as much as possible so that the audience is not looking at the slide reading whilst they should be listening to you.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you do then?
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to go beyond what is written by, I call it a script.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have a script for what will you say on every slide, and that you have to prepare beforehand.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ideally, practice it.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, practice means not like byheart it, but just say it aloud in front of an another audience.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: Ditch the mirror method because your face is not going to give you uh feedback, but any other audience will give you some feedback, and just hearing yourself say something aloud will, oh my god, this is not flowing.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that doesn't make sense, and so on, right?
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: So just doing that once also is a great way to get uh confidence and actually even make tweaks to that script.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think going beyond the the text by first having lesser text in the presentation version of your present of your slides and uh uh having a script for your presentation, it's very useful.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I want to uh you know uh ask you one last question.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: You are also a storytelling coach, right?
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so when people come to you, uh how does one uh you know what do you do to uh uh you know equip people with this storytelling skill?
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So uh can you talk to me about uh you know how long do we need to do it?
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_02: What are the processes that you uh you know you follow?
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you go about it?
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, thanks, Sami.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first step is to understand the importance of this as a skill.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that you know people who come have have that you know clarity that you know this is important for me to to succeed, to do well in life.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then the the broad approach that I take is that unlike in a training workshop in which I will try and cover a fair number of concepts in a day, because if I've got that audience for for a day or a two or whatever, um in a coaching relationship, it's a it's a longer term thing, right?
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So in a coaching relationship, we we might start with um, of course, understanding the person um who do they present to?
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Who are their core audiences, what are their um uh what are their key expectations, that audience's key expectations.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um what do they do they think is going well with their storytelling currently?
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_00: What do they think is not going so well with their storytelling currently?
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, getting those inputs from you know, as a self and as getting those inputs from from that audience will kind of be like a good diagnostic to know that I think this person is fairly good on the visual front, but maybe they struggle a little bit on uh on the narrative, or they're very good in the structured narrative part, but they struggle on the engagement elements, or they're very good in engagement elements, but the delivery part is a problem, right?
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that is, I think, important for me as a coach to know that where is it uh most um I think the intervention needs to be done the most.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh in respective of where the intervention needs to be focused on, I will definitely give people an overview of the storytelling techniques, like this ABCD framework.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, these are the broad um elements that are there, and so that they know it's like a map, right?
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then we can tell you, okay, now we are going into this region, now we're going to this region.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Then we will have multiple sessions, right?
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in each session, ideally I try and connect that session with a real life uh event.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't make too much sense to learn something just for the sake of sometime in the future.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I will use it, right?
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_00: It should be like, oh, you know, next week I've got a town hall presentation.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can we work on that?
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: That makes it very tangible.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So then, okay, so you've got a down-hour presentation next week.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so okay, let's talk about the audience.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is the audience, okay.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are their objectives?
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this objective.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what is it that you want to tell?
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so we actually go about preparing.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's like work for them uh with a coach, right?
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's just you know, more better use of that time.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh go about preparing their talk.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, we'll go through the four, the A, then build a narrative for the talk using the 139, add the engagement elements.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_00: We go through the same process.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's talk about the slides.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_00: How will we do the visuals?
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what do you think should be the right thing?
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, how have you thought about this?
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, how about this?
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't it make sense?
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, as they're going about it, they realize, oh, this is what I would have normally done, but now I'm doing it in a different way.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm, you know, hopefully um learning something in doing that better.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then maybe round two and round three.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_02: So sorry, how long does this coaching go?
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, is it uh you know, a couple of months, so many weeks?
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_02: How does it yeah?
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think a few months because I think time and life comes in the way sometimes, right?
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, ideally once a week would be great, but you probably don't even have that many high-stakes events.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're doing at least like one catch-up every fortnight or maybe every three weeks, that's kind of good enough.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's more like you know, do it when you feel the need.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like you know, you have to complete these four sessions, otherwise, it would not be.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's more about uh your uh um you know time availability and and the requirement, and then then it can be built.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's quite kind of quite flexible uh that that way.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So uh uh so I'm pretty much coming to the end of our conversation where there are a bit of uh rapid fire questions uh that I have from uh my end, uh Rabbi.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so my first question to you uh is uh what does uh success mean to you?
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the one way I think of this um is this ikigai framework, right?
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So of course I'm I'm keeping uh personal or family part of setup.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's of course, you know, super crucial.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's if if you're not if that that's the most important thing.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But from a profession, I'm talking about professional success, right?
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So professional success for me is uh is for you to meet your ikigai, uh, which is uh it's a Japanese concept, which means that you know you're you're at the confluence of your uh ability, what you're really good at doing, uh, your uh passion or you know what drives you, um, the commercials, which is you know, are people willing to pay for it, and and social impact that you know it has got some social impact, or or you know, it's it's a skill that the world needs.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is one that you know um broadly are you in the space of where you're you're meeting your ikikai.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now for me there's an interesting analogy that I thought of when I was, you know, I thought by 2016 I had kind of you know gone into this and I thought now I found my ikigai.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I realize it's ikigai is not like one place, it is also like a vast area.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Within that, also you're exploring and and finding and optimizing.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um the uh analogy that I think of is that you know in India you're you're roaming around saying, okay, do I want to be in Konkan beaches?
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh nice, but no, no, this is not my thing.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_00: In in the uh plains of the Deccan, no, not this, um, in in the valleys of the Chambal, no, in in the forests, no.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Himalayas, oh, this is this is it.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I found my Ekikai.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So now you've reached the Himalayas and you think you found it Ekikai, then you realize, oh my god, the Himalayas are stretching from whatever Kashmir to uh to Assam.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so now within that also I'm optimizing.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so there I've got, pardon me, one more framework.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this framework came, I mean, the name was given to me by a friend called Uday Kiran, where uh we're talking about um what do you saw?
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I we called it the 4F framework, right?
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry, let me see if I remember.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So financials plus fulfillment plus fun divided by effort.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, financially it has to make sense.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Any anything that you do.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh fulfillment is um you're satisfied mentally that you know, hey, this has actually meant something, this has moved the needle for this person or for this organization, and now they are happier.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you get a lot of it, you know, when clients come back to you and say, hey, this has really helped me and stuff.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Fun is just you know the person that you're with, and you know, you're just having fun doing that workshop and you know with the people that you're with.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think all those three to me, if that is in balance and uh effort, of course, you know, you want to work hard, but you don't want to be just doing donkey work for the sake of it.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to try and you know minimize that part of it.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of try and optimize for that.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh if if you were to give uh a piece of advice to an 18-year-old in an university today, uh, what would that be?
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I I struggle with with this kind of uh thing.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be like Gyan Baba, but uh I would say uh again that the curiosity part comes into play, right?
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, be curious.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um experiment and be aware of yourself, right?
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I wish I had gone on the CKI journey a little earlier.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think um yeah, by the time I was 24, 25 is when it kind of struck me that you know I need to be more deliberate about my choices.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's when I started taking choices on my own.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think today's kids do it much, much earlier.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes I feel they may worry too much about saying, hey, this is not perfect, I'm not in the perfect zone on my, you know, uh so don't have too high standards also for uh satisfaction, for uh passion, etc.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think anybody, even if somebody is working in their most passionate job, are happy 100% of the time.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like even for me, there are dull days, there are difficult days, there are days that I realize, oh my god, you know, I have to go through this call again.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be there, right?
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot have 100% happiness all the time.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a myth.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you speak to the topmost athletes, the topmost performers.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody does their reps, does their you know, the boring part of the job that was always there.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_00: But at a broad level, that feeling of you know fulfillment and satisfaction is definitely there.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what you should aim for.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh um keep thinking of your life as you know, as a series of hypotheses, right?
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I've been doing.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, my hypothesis is that if I do this, I will move closer to my ikikai.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I tried that hypothesis.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, it worked on this module, but it did not work on this module.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So let me try another hypothesis or let me tweak this hypothesis a little bit.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like an experimenter if you're kind of doing that.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as 18, I think there's so much time available to you to experiment, and by the time you're you'll you'll get to your ikikai very fast, inshallah.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so tell me uh what's one piece of uh best advice you ever got over these years, which you remember and uh you pretty much value.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_02: You may have got a lot, but probably one that you can pick up.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think Abhishek's advice is one that definitely comes to mind as one that uh a few more that are coming is one uh was by um Gopal from my consulting days, Gopal Sarma, who's now with Bain.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um during that time our our obsession was detail and more data, right?
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, we would always tell him, hey, you know, we can't uh tell the client anything, we don't have enough data, we don't have enough data.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So he would kind of always push back and say, you can never have enough data, right?
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have uh hypothesis, you have to have a point of view, and of course back it up with data and you know do whatever you can.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so it's that there's always you know, in any any advice, too much uh of extreme is bad.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I always also realize that a strong hypothesis can lead you to confirmation bias, and you know, you can go down the path of not backing up with enough data.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of people I find go you know too deep into data hunting and not having enough of a point of view.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is that is also uh useful advice that that has served me well.
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's one thing that uh what you believe in, uh others don't agree with you on?
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Huh?
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, so I've been trying to convince people of this, and I'm not doing a good job clearly enough of a good job.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think business reviews are broken.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this this concept of this the quarterly or monthly business review, the way it is done.
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not saying it is the review needs to happen, the way it is done is is quite bad, quite bad.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's not that it's not been solved.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are companies which have solved it, but um it's a tough, it's a tough solve, it's not an easy solve.
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the way it is happening currently is that hey, you know, everybody comes and then there's a plethora of data that they present on slide after slide after slide.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_00: The the reviewers who are usually senior audiences, I uh as a joke, I almost say they're almost like masochistic, right?
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, bring it on, give me more data, I will take it on.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have got the you know the mental ability to sustain this for a whole day.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_00: How are you joking, man?
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, who are you you know uh fooling?
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's difficult, right?
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So um push the onus of crafting a narrative on your leaders, right?
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So don't make it a data review, make it a narrative review.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's not this is not rocket science, this is not uh new idea.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Amazon has sold it a decade back, so they call it the six-page narrative, right?
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's not easy.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it's an easy one.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: There are variants, you don't have to go to that level of, you know, make a six-page word document narrative, and so that let me kind of talk about what Amazon has done, and then you know, we can talk about the challenges of it.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So in Amazon, any product review, any new idea, you know, business review, it starts with the person who's let's say talking about the product or the business idea to present, no, I mean I say present, sorry, to give a six-page Word document printed out to all the uh people.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_00: The first five minutes of that review, of half an hour review, is spent in silent reading.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's remarkable.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I've uh you know, people write about in the there's a book about this where people write about saying that, you know, you can just hear the pages being turned and that's it.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're all reading and absorbing.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what that does is that first of all, to write a report is immense amount of clarity in thinking that is there.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_00: So your your own thinking becomes better and you know you're you're leaving out the fluff and all of that.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um two, as a reader, I may have a question that immediately comes on page number two, but I it gets answered on page number four.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't waste everybody's time by answering asking unnecessary questions, right?
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody then is on the same page.
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then the rest of the discussion is at a much higher level, right?
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So um instead of asking, hey, what does that number mean?
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, but have you been reconciled that with uh the data from there?
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, wait, is that in uh USD or or is in euro?
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_00: All rubbish questions, right?
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, of course, you know, most organizations have moved beyond that, but it sometimes that also happens.
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or uh, you know, uh a template which has got you know 10 columns into 10 rows and you know 100 data points, and you know, you're going through all of this, you are asking questions, that guy obviously knows all the data and he's giving all the data, but it's a mess, yeah.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, ask that person to craft the 139, then executive summary narrative.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it is tough, it's not an easy skill.
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you'll have to push a support, it's worth it.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it may mean two, three reviews which are uncomfortable, deeply uncomfortable because you're changing the way it is done.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I I feel that the the other side of that discomfort will be a vastly improved uh review.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because reviews, if you think about it, uh Swami, they are very um expensive for a company.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're getting very senior people whose time is extremely valuable all in the same room, and you could get magic out of those reviews if a good narrative is presented.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you could have much better discussions, much better decisions.
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_00: It could change the direction of that company.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh here you are discussing about you know decimal points and you know currency fluctuation.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think so.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_00: That that to me is one thing that I believe strongly, which maybe other people also maybe believe, but they maybe yeah, maybe through an action on it.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_02: So if you were to uh invite uh four people for a dream dinner, uh you know, who would that be and why?
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is such a remarkable question, and this is um yeah, I so I the first choice would be someone which is you not ex um you know, think in the world of storytelling, but this Greek legend, philosopher of Aristotle, right, called Aristotle.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um even today we are kind of learning and talking about the stuff that he used to write about and talk about, and remarkable guy, right?
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'd love to you know pick his brain and you know that the one of the most fundamental storytelling frameworks that I teach even now is is one that he coined, which is the ethos pathos logos framework.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: That in order to convince somebody you need a balance between logic, which is logos, emotions, which is pathos, and trust and credibility, which is ethos.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So Aristotle would definitely be one.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd love to have Barbara Minto, who is um who's who's also uh uh a legend in you know that that clarity of thinking, and you know, even now it's being used by all of McKinsey, all of Bain, all of Accenture, all these big firms are using you know some variant of the pyramid principle.
• 1:26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd love to have um Chip Heath, uh, because he's personally one of the guys who was really influenced me the most in terms of apart from Meet to Stick, he came out with another book uh a couple of years back called Making Numbers.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Shucks, I I forget the the full title, but making numbers or something, uh not relatable, making numbers work or uh count, making numbers count.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how do you tell a story of big numbers in a better way?
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say chip, who could be a fourth.
• 1:26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is an interesting one.
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so maybe somebody who's from a fiction world, right?
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And fiction is an interesting one.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh the the one of the storytellers that I admire the most in fiction is uh Chris Nolan, who doesn't admire him.
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that that would be my I would say.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm missing out on some visual guys, but maybe I think since you said four.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice, brilliant.
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh now that uh you know this is my last question.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now that you've heard the podcast, you've seen uh, you know, how uh you know how we do this uh you know, I would call conversation.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if you were to uh you know think of a guest who you would recommend and who you would want to listen, uh who would that be?
• 1:27:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it need not be somebody whom you know, but it's just saying that okay, I'm a subscriber to this podcast, I just wish I listened to this person.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_00: This has put me in a spot because there are um yeah, many people who I would love to listen to in terms of um understanding their craft, um, some of them are generally available on podcasts.
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, Harsha Bogli, right?
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I would love to have him, uh, someone like him on a podcast where you just go deeper and deeper into his craft.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_00: How does he do what he what he does?
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because he talks about stories about cricket and all of that, which is which is there.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's there's on a bunch of podcasts, but uh, I don't think anybody has probed or maybe I've not come across um stories where he's been probed about his own um you know journey.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another person that immediately comes to mind in terms of again his own process and craft is um have you heard of Amit Varma?
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh The Seen and the Unseen?
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Phenomenal, phenomenal the way he has you know built this uh you know series of I I I've I've you know I've mentioned this on the group that he he is basically creating autobiographies for free of biographies for free for some of the guests that he's bringing on board, right?
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and the depth that he goes to five hours, six hours, seven hour interviews, it's ridiculous.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I mean, yeah, I think I he I don't think he comes himself on other podcasts.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it I think I I best of luck to the person who interviews Amit Orma because I think I I would be super nervous.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, but it'll be great to kind of you know again get to know his his craft and fantastic.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Ravi.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um lovely uh you know having this conversation.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh honestly, as you spoke, uh it gave me uh vivid pictures.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Your words uh you know drew some pictures in my head.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and that's really what I think a great storyteller is all about.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh uh it's a fantastic conversation, lots to learn, so many books that you uh you know you mentioned, lots to be put on show notes, and thanks a lot.
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, really enjoyed this conversation and the time I had with you.
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Sami.
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great, great pleasure for me, also.
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_02: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contramines.com slash blog.
• 1:29:57
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• 1:30:08
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• 1:30:11
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• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening and stay safe.