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TABLE TALK: Let's Do Better With Women's Athletics · The Philadelphia Sports Table | Philly Sports News & Views

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Hey, everybody, it's Jeff. We wanted to let you know we recorded
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this podcast episode on Monday, January twenty ninth, twenty twenty four. By
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the time you hear this, some things may have changed, but we hope
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you enjoy the show. All Right, everybody, you're listening to Table Talk
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here at the Philadelphia Sports Table podcast show, the longest running weekly Philly sports
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podcast show in the world, over ten and a half years strung. We
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got a great discussion coming your way this week. I'm really excited about this
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particular interview and discussions we're going to be diving into because from a social standpoint
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here at the psc podcast show, over the years, we've dive into this
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every now and again, this subject matter, and it's a subject matter of
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women in sports, what women in sports actually means at certain levels, and
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you know, sometimes the inequities of women in sports, but what women in
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sports and girls in sports, female athletes, what the experience is, how
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we can get better with it, and how it really helps to shape young
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ladies, women in general and in terms of sports in our culture. So
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it's gonna be a fascinating conversation. Hope you stick around for it. We
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got a great guest, so let's get into it. It is great to
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have back on the podcast. We're usually talking Philadelphia Flyers with her because she
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is awesome on the Locked On Flyers podcast. I listen on Apple Podcasts and
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you should definitely check out their content again at the Locked On Flyers podcast.
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But we have one of their co hosts to get into this very interesting subject
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matter, something that we've been wanting to talk about for some time here at
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the PSD podcast show. As I mentioned in the intro, female, the
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female sports experience and women in sports, we've got the one and only Rachel
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Donner. How you doing, Rachel, I'm doing good. This is one
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of my favorite topics to talk about, females in sports very much. Yeah,
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exactly. But yeah, we've, you know, over the years,
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Rachel, on our on our podcast platform, the ten and a half years
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we've been doing this, we've dove into few stories here and there as it
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pertains to females and female sports athletes and just the female you know experience in
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a way, as it pertains to my daughter's my co host, his daughter
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and what she's been through over the years. We've kind of gotten into some
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stories here and there about that, but not necessarily a dedicated show as this
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one is. So it's really great to have you on and to get your
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perspective. And I look at I look at the quote issue and it shouldn't
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even in my opinion, shouldn't even be an issue. But you know,
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we looked at I look at this issue of women in sports, and I
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I I think we have certainly progressed in the world of women's sports, say
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maybe over the past two decades. Again, this is my perspective. You
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may feel completely different. I still feel like we have a long way to
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go before the playing field is even out between males and females in terms of
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the sports experience. So I guess to start off this conversation here, I
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guess two part question one, where has the sports world gotten it right when
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it comes to women's athletics? And where have they really gotten it wrong?
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So why don't we start off talking about it there? Yeah, it's a
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loaded question. First off, the sports world didn't get it right and it
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took outside influence to start things on the right path. Right, So,
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in nineteen seventy two, you have Title nine YEP, which is the civil
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rights law that prohibited sex based discrimination in school or education programs that receive federal
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funding. Yeah, and that was revolutionary in terms of, you know,
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creating balance and scholarship opportunities for women athletes, for creating programs that maybe didn't
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exist before, and adding D one programs, adding D two, D three
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programs, schools that didn't that didn't have them before. And it created a
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lot more of a feeder system that then trickles down, right, so you
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have like youth programs and middle school and high school programs to then feed into
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these now established college programs and created a whole new structure that really hadn't been
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there before. And I remember my mom was a basketball player in high school
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in the let's say the early sixties. Okay, there were rules about not
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being able to pass more than a certain distance because they felt it was too
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much eership, Okay, too much exertion, like body, you could only
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go a certain distance before you had to pass. Right. Wow. Now,
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my mother is also like barely five feet tall, so she didn't advance
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beyond okay, high school basketball a lot of the time, but God bless
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her. Great athlete not meant for basketball, right, but but like it
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just goes to show how far we've come since then in sports, just based
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on Title nine alone, and so I think there's a lot of good that
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has come from it as a result of Title nine. It's like, then
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you look at the what's not so right, and you look at all of
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the structures in place, and you think about leagues like you know, the
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NBA, the NHL, Major League Baseball, all you know, been around
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like decades and in some cases over one hundred years, right, right,
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Yeah, and they've had all this time to develop and build and grow,
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and women's pro sports in particular has only really existed, you know, in
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since the seventies, I want to say a few right, So you look
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at like maybe the early you know, women's golf circuit. You look at
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you know, Billy Jean King and the women's Tennis Tour and all of that,
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Like, other than the Olympics, you really didn't have like a strong
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platform for women's pro sports. And so there's this expectation and this I think
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societal judgment on women's pro sports in a way that doesn't respect a the societal
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structures that have been against their success this whole time, doesn't respect the amount
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of time that men's sports have had to develop. Yeah, all this time,
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and then you have like a sports media landscape that I believe the stats
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is like three to five percent max of you know, sports media broadcasting is
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spent on women's sports. Wow, And yeah, it's atrocious. It's like
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only gotten better in terms of women being involved as broadcasters and commentators on the
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men's side. You see, we've seen that grow and develop, but actually
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having a lot more dedicated airtime and prime airtime where it's like you don't have
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to pay an extra fee, it's not on the OCHO or something like that.
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You know. It's it's like where has the time and the investment been
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in pro women's sports? And I think we're starting to see that get a
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little better now, you know. And it all ends up with women's pro
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athletes. Should we pay them a living wage? I mean the answer is
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yes, but it has not existed in women's pro sports to a large degree.
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I would say maybe soccer has done an okay job of it in some
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cases, but not all. Basketball has just started to get there, but
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not really because part of the w NBA players play overseas and their off season,
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and that leads to wear and tear and injuries, whole other slew of
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things. That's another topic for another day. But it's like, you know,
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hockey, we just got the p WHL, which is the first league
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to have a living mostly living wage right for their players. You know.
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So it's like, how do you expect professional athletes to excel at an elite
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level when you won't pay them and support them in order to do so.
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I think that's a great point, I really do. And you know,
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I mean, what again, one of the reasons I wanted to bring you
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on too, aside from your knowledge, is the last time you were on,
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we were talking, you know, prior to hitting the record button about
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you know, we had John to talk about the Flyers, but you know,
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we we were specifically talking about the fact that the city of Philadelphia,
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you know, a sports town that we follow, you know, and here
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on this podcast, you know, the five major sports teams, you know,
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we're really following them. But you and I talked to Rachel about the
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fact that Philadelphia doesn't have a WNBA team, and it's astonishing to me.
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Why that why it's amazing because like, and I'm wondering, do you think
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it's I mean, considering that the Philadelphia sports market is the fourth largest sports
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team television market in the United States, it's baffling to me. But and
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the fact that the Philadelphia area and in this region of Pennsylvania has such a
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rich basketball tradition in terms of its history, it's baffling to me that that
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we don't have a wa NBA team in Philadelphia. Why do you think this
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is? Like, I'd love to hear your opinions on this. Yeah,
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man, all I want before I die is to have a w NBA team
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in Philadelphia with Don Stalley as the head coach. There you go, give
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me this world. She's doing very well. It's very successful in her college
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coaching career. Yes, but Philadelphia sports legend, my favorite Philadelphia athlete them
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there you go, hands down, like no question. But yeah, So
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with the WNBA, we can talk about the other sports as well, like
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with soccer and with hots and why they're not in Philadelphia either. But WNBA
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started in nineteen ninety seven, there's been up to eighteen teams. Currently there
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are twelve. They have not done any expansion in that league since two thousand
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and eight. There's been a couple of relocations, but until this upcome,
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not this summer, but next summer. The Bay Area is getting a team
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and that's the first new team since Atlanta in two thousand and eight. So
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they have kept it pretty tight because they went through rapid expansion and then had
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to contract a little bit. I think they're very gunchy about expansion and they
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want to make sure it's right, and so they've been hesitant to do that.
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But we're at a breaking point with the WNBA is that there aren't enough
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roster spots to support the amazing talent coming out of college basketball right now women's
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college basketball, and we've seen the growth of the Women's Final Four and just
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how huge it is and successful. And we had that whole thing in the
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bubble with Sedona Prince and she brought attention to the inequitocies of you know,
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those training facilities and the food and all of that. It was like it
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was a moment, it was it was quite a thing, and so,
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you know, I think that the WNBA really had no choice to expand.
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Now, why not Philadelphia? I think I think there's a couple of reasons.
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Number One, it's always about the money, and there hasn't been the
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impetus from Sixers ownership, and the w NBA is very dedicated to having partnerships
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with the NBA franchises and having mostly you know, affiliates. There's exceptions,
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you know, the Las Vegas cases. There's no NBA team in Las Vegas,
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but there's you know, they need strong ownership. And the most recent
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CBA that the WNBA had, you know, increased pay by a lot,
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increased benefits by a lot. They have maternity leave now, like all of
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this stuff that you don't think about with standard player contracts on the men's side
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is now becoming you know, a thing on the women's future. Yeah,
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yeah, exactly, and frankly there should be more paternity leave too. Yes,
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But that being said, I think that, you know, because of
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how tightly the WNBA has been managed, Yeah, there hasn't really been the
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opportunity. The other thing with Philadelphia is, and this is across the board,
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there's a geography problem here because these leagues always want to put a team
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in New York. Sometimes I think it's warranted and sometimes I don't think it
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is. And there's I can again that's a side topic, but you know,
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I live in New York and I think there are reasons to not put
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pro sports teams here in general, not just women's, right, But that'll
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never happen because it's New York. And then you have Washington d C,
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right, and d C has had a w NBA team since the second year
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of the league. I was actually an original season ticket holder of the Washington
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Mystics and went to those games for three years. And then I actually disclaimer,
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I did work as an intern for the the Utah Stars, which are
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now the Las Vegas Aces through you know, movement and relos and all of
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that. But so I have experience with the origins of the w n b
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A and you know, it has grown so much, but we're in this
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geography crunch here where, you know, I think they feel like especially in
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some of the other leagues in soccer in particular, you know, sometimes the
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team plays in New Jersey, so they think, oh, people from Philly
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can just come up to North Jersey if they want to see women's And yeah,
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I just think there's a geography crunch, and it's a money thing that
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like it's just that there hasn't been a solid ownership group that's come to the
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forefront, so like it's the will of the ownership, like we need the
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will of the ownership to actually do it, or when you mean like the
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money, they feel like it. They're just going to be burning through money
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and it's not going to be well worth. It's the will. It's the
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will. It's the will because it's been proof. The proof is there now,
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Like, there's no question. I can see why there was some hesitancy.
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But you know, Sixers ownership is its own animal, right, absolutely,
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no, Josh his own animal for sure, right, And you know
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the fact that they own teams like you know, the Devils, and they're
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they're not really Washington Commanders. Yeah, they're not Philly people, right,
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they're sports people, and like I think it would behoove them to have you
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know, a women's absolutely w NBA team in their umbrella, but you know,
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I don't have the money. Yeah, So well, what about some
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of the other sports that you were talking about too, like aside from the
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NBA and why we aren't necessarily aren't necessarily seeing that? Yeah, So I
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think interestingly, if I were to predict which sport would have the first Philadelphia
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area team, I would say it's soccer is the most likely. Okay,
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and I say that because of the volume opportunities, and I say that also
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because of stadium opportunities. So we have the Philadelphia Union super Park is gorgeous.
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I love going to matches there, and so you already have you know,
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a stadium there, and you have multiple leagues, right, so there
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are opportunities. So we do have the NWSL, but there is another league,
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and I don't know how deep you know, Union fans are here on
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that, but there's the USL, right, which is the Tier two soccer
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league that you know feeds into Major League Soccer sometimes. And the USL created
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the w League, right, So that's a D two women's league that has
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forty four teams. There's one in Central Pennsylvania and I think there's a team
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in North Jersey there as well. But that's like kind of a semi pro,
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you know, feeder league that allows women's college soccer players who don't get
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drafted into the NWSL somewhere to go. They have announced a super league,
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which was originally going to be a D two league, but they pushed it
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a year and now they're going to be a D one league that will rival
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the NWSL. So they're starting this summer and interestingly, they're gonna on the
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international schedule. So the NWSL plays on the spring to fall schedule, right
17:06
like Major League Soccer does. But the international schedule of soccer as we know
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is fall to spring, you know, Premier League and Bundesliga and all that
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stuff. So Super League is going to play on that international schedule. So
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there could be some overlap in players, but it will create a whole other
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slew of teams. Now they've already announced like their first eight teams I believe,
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but there's more teams that they know for sure will enter the league in
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the coming years, and there's still some teams to be announced. And that's
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where I think the opportunity is because there's just a higher volume of opportunities.
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Right, two different D one leagues coming into the picture, and the W
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League from USL. Like, it's got to happen in there some at some
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point, right, have super up Park. You do have some college stadiums
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that are viable in the area. Uh, I believe Villanova has a nice
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stadium, but uh former player Heather Mits who played for a women's pro soccer
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team in Philadelphia, there's a pass by the way for both the basketball and
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soccer of previous teams and previous leagues that have gone under, but that's because
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they haven't had this strong structure and backing, right. Yeah, So Heather,
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Heather Mits has been part of a leadership group that has been trying to
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put together a strong situation and she played for Villanova. So like their stadium
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has potential, super park has potential. But you know, you never know
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with these these bids. But but we do know that the Union are thinking
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ahead along these lines because they've been building out a training facility for themselves and
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there and so on, and they're including space for a women's team to have
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facilities in that training facil fantastic. Yeah, yeah, so it is.
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It is really cool that they're planning for that. Because the thing about the
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USL too is that's different from the NWSL. NWSL greatly love watching it go
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Utah Royals. That's a long story for another day, but they are a
19:18
league on its own. USL is a fully developmental league. Like I said,
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they have two tiers, plus they're going to have youth programs, which
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is great. You know that that'll feed into that. It's a full structure,
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just like on the men's side, right right, it's fantastic. I
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mean, there's fantastic. There's opportunities out there, and it kind of like
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it kind of dovetails into the next topic I wanted to get into with you,
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Rachel, which is the fact that, Okay, I'll go back to
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you know, I've read a recent article from the Women's Sports Foundation that said
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that girls in general have a one point three million fewer opportunities to play high
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school than boys have, and I was a little surprised, quite frankly,
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to see that it was that number, and that by the age of fourteen,
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girls are dropping out of sports at two times the rate of boys.
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Now, this certainly isn't a reflection of every school district out there that offers
20:15
sports programming to their students, but this obviously is a reality out there in
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terms of opportunities that girls in general and females have or have not, and
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I think it sets the stage for possible stagnation when it comes to female athletics,
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you know, in later years. Here. So I'm wondering what are
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your thoughts on this phenomenon as it pertains to opportunities, Because again, I
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come from a school district where I was born and raised where there really was
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a lot of opportunity for female and male athletes. My daughters right now,
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they're in a school district. It's not the same one I was born and
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raised in, but it's a school district that has a lot of opportunity for
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female and male athletes as well. So I don't know, what are your
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thoughts on this phenomenon about women and girls having fewer opportunities to play high school
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sports. Well, my my half joking answer to that is guys have more
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delusions of grandeur than women do. That's true, and so they're going to
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stick with it longer because they're gonna make it. They really will, right,
21:26
Yes, But you know, I think seriously it is that until very
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recently, you know, the last decade, let's say, you know,
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there's been some individual sports, you know, like tennis, that golf that
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we you know, we've talked about where you know, you can make a
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living as a woman athlete, and you know, and then like with Olympic
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sports in terms of you have sponsorship from the sports federations and you know,
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the US Olympic Committee and and all of that, that's kind of a separate
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thing where they have facilities and stipends and all of that where they can make
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it their jobs, right, but then they also work at the home depot
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because there's the commercials that tell you that. But anyway, but it's lack
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of a lack of an endgame, I think in terms of like, well,
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if there's nothing, you know, I can't make a living at this,
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even though it's my passion, I cannot make a living at this and
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you know, be able to support myself. Then then you have to say,
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well, I now have to start doing the things and doing the activities
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and the academics and all of this other stuff to prepare me for a different
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career. So unfortunately I don't have time for sports anymore. Yeah, yeah,
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And I think that's a huge, huge part of it. And there's
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also you know, lack of financial support because it's expensive to do travel teams
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and to a sports at a high level, and you know, the funding
23:03
just doesn't match white sports. It just doesn't. And in a lot of
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cases, especially with private you know, regional leagues and you know all of
23:14
that, it's the funding isn't there. And so if you're not going to
23:18
have the facilities and the support and the equipment and everything that you need to
23:22
be successful in your sport. Then like, is it a waste of my
23:26
time? Yeah? And then you know, there's also the social pressures.
23:30
There's a cultural devaluing of women's sports, which is utter garbage because I firmly
23:37
believe that women's basketball and women's hockey are the better versions of the sports,
23:41
but especially college By the way, I'm just going to say this, women's
23:44
college basketball, Oh my god, so much of a better product than men's
23:48
college basketball. We have said on this podcast platform, I a my,
23:52
my, my co hosts, and I I don't think we've really watched much
23:56
of March Madness, the NCAA men's tournament hardly at all the past few seriously,
24:03
but I will watch the women's tournament like it's nobody's business. It's good
24:08
stuff, it's good product, and it's just it's changed over the years,
24:14
absolutely, and that's because it's gotten more investment. And I think that,
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you know, there's also a lack of knowledge about these games, and there's
24:21
just a societal assumption that it's a lesser version of these games. And it's
24:26
not lesser. It's different in a lot of ways, but it's It's not
24:30
lesser, that's for sure. And you know, when you only have you
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know, five percent of the broadcast time spent on women's sports, how are
24:40
people going to get exposed to it and learn those things? That goes back
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to what I was saying it, you know, at the very beginning.
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And then of course you have your general misogyny and sexism in society, and
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let's get into that. That's my next topic. Well, yeah, that's
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the next topic. If you look at any team posting about women's sports or
25:00
like, you know, for instance, the NHL All Star Game is imminent
25:06
as of this recording, and they're doing a three on three tournament with the
25:12
PWHL players, and you look at the social media replies when they post about
25:18
it, and it's like, who cares? Yeah, exactly, exactly,
25:21
not real hockey. Do they even check in stuff? And if you've watched
25:26
any PWHL games, you know that's very physical and there is almost fight exactly.
25:33
Let mean, you know, you talk about those comments on social media,
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and of course we all know social media is what it is unacceptable in
25:40
so many different ways, but there definitely is sexism and stereotyping in sports.
25:45
There's no doubt about it. I mean, I recently read a survey that
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said girls as young as five years old many times field, but they actually
25:52
don't belong in sports. It as ridiculous as that sounds. And also,
25:57
only thirty percent of parents believe that playing a sport is very important for their
26:03
daughter, compared with forty one percent of parents for their sons. So I
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mean, it's it's all for me. It's like, how do we change
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this narrative? Again? I have two daughters who are involved in sports and
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they have been now for many years. But how do we change this narrative
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of what female athletics can really bring to girls at a young age. Yeah,
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I mean it's all the same things. That's the thing. It's like
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infuriating that you have to even say it, because it's like, oh,
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you learn about teamwork, you learn about setting goals. You know, it's
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like all the same things. Same thing with boys you learn. Yeah,
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and I and honestly, I think like for boys there's more they need to
26:45
learn sometimes in terms of discipline and things like that. You know, girls
26:52
need to learn those things too, But I think that just with socialization,
26:55
there's you know, it's different, it's different sometimes but not all cases,
27:02
but it's different sometimes. Well, oh go ahead, I'm so sorry.
27:07
Yeah, I just think you know, we're not there yet, and I
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think that, you know, as as we move on like there, just
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shouldn't this should not even come up. Of course, girls should play sports,
27:22
yes, And I don't want I don't want somebody like me who as
27:27
a child was obsessed with hockey. Hockey has always been my favorite sport.
27:32
And you know what, I'd never occurred to me to play it as a
27:34
kid because it was not something that girls did. And I'm so like overwhelmed
27:40
and joyous and thrilled for these women that are playing pro hockey at an elite
27:44
level right now. It's just everything I could have hoped with sinjury absolutely.
27:48
Well again, folks, we're talking to Rachel Donner from the Locked On Flyers
27:53
podcast. You mentioned that our favorite sport is hockey. She and her co
27:57
host doing fantastic work over at the Lockdown Flyers podcast. Check out what they're
28:03
doing over there. And I guess to to kind of just end our conversation
28:07
here as we're running out of time. Rachel. I mean, there's definitely
28:11
that gender inequality in sports, you know, We've been talking about it here
28:14
and trying or I'm trying my best to like hit on these important topics within
28:18
this conversation and discussion. You know, I mean, whether it's pay marketing,
28:22
promotion, media coverage, funding, stuff we've been talking about here on
28:27
this show. Here. You know, there's no denying that there's that gender
28:32
inequality in sports. So I'm wondering, again, as as a father who
28:37
has two daughters involved in sports here, what are your thoughts on how do
28:41
we raise awareness of this and raise awareness so that it doesn't drive people away
28:47
from gaining an understanding of the inequity, if that makes sense, because too
28:52
many times, as you mentioned, you know, you're on you're on these
28:56
social platforms, and people are so dismissive. How do we raise this awareness
29:00
so that it doesn't drive people away from this important subject. Yeah, I
29:06
think it's kind of a If you build it, they will come attitude and
29:08
demand it. Demand the coverage from broadcasters, from local sports broadcasting coverage and
29:17
say, you know, on your local news, do they cover the women's
29:19
sports in your area, the women's high school tournaments, all of that,
29:25
and you know, like one of the most incredible stories to come out of
29:30
sports. I think, not just women's sports, but sports in general.
29:34
Over you know, the last year or so is I don't know if you
29:38
remember last year, but they filled corn Husker Stadium Nebraska. We did a
29:47
segment on the show here about yes, ninety two thousand fans to watch women's
29:52
college volley volleyball. Like what an incredible achievement and like that can happen anywhere.
29:59
That sort of stuff can happen anywhere. You see it with them breaking
30:02
attendance records with the PWHL, you know up in Minnesota they had over ten
30:07
thousand people attend that game. They had nine k up in Ottawa which filled
30:11
the building. Like it's doable. You just have to put the money in
30:17
and you have to have people demand it, and you have to have men
30:21
demand more women's sports on television. Yes, because you know, as an
30:26
old fart women's sports band, I've been screaming about this for forever, but
30:32
the voices are getting louder now and we're demanding this and it has to come
30:36
from everybody, and just more women's sports on TV, more women's sports coverage,
30:41
and put your money where your mouth is, because it'll work. I
30:45
promise you, and that volleyball game proved it. Absolutely yeah, absolutely again,
30:49
folks. Rachel Donner from the Locked On Flyers podcast. A fantastic discussion,
30:55
Rachel, really thank you for your honesty, Thank you for coming on
30:57
the directness of of this entire conversation. I so very much appreciated it,
31:03
and I'm hoping to talk some flyers with you down the road. Let's talk
31:07
more, talk more women's sports in general too. Join us down the road.
31:11
I'd love to have you on again, my friend. Absolutely, such
31:14
a great conversation with Rachel. And I can tell you right now as a
31:18
father of two daughters, and both of my daughters involved in athletics and they
31:25
have been from an early age. For anybody out there who does have daughters,
31:30
you know, whether you're a male or female, you know you're a
31:32
mom or a dad, you know, I would just highly encourage you to
31:36
continue to drive home and to you know, have those positive messages at the
31:42
dinner table or when you're driving your kids to and from activities about how important
31:47
sports are, because you know, they really, at the end of the
31:48
day, help build a lot of character with our youth. So I just
31:53
wanted to throw that out there. You know, I talked to my daughters
31:56
about it every now and then. I had a daughter that was a very
31:59
accomplished gymnast, a regionals champion in terms of the USA Gymnastics. My other
32:05
daughter is going to be actually training for her black belt very soon here in
32:08
twenty twenty four in karate, and I would say by the fall is going
32:14
to be a black belt, God willing. So it's so important that we
32:17
continue to just drive home to our young kids, you know that there is
32:22
a place for them in the sports world. I truly believe no matter anybody's
32:27
talent level, that from a sports perspective, everybody can participate. It's my
32:31
hope that wherever you are listening to this, that the opportunities are there.
32:37
I know Rachel and I were talking about, you know some females, girls,
32:40
women don't actually have those opportunities, but to really seek them out.
32:44
So anyway, I'm going to stop talking here. It was a great,
32:47
great Table Talk episode, and we got more great content coming to you this
32:52
week here at the Philadelphia Sports Table podcast show. We've got a great opposition
32:57
Territory podcast where we're gonna be talking about the Atlanta Braves. This week,
33:00
we're gonna be talking about some Major League Baseball off season storylines, and then
33:05
on our regular show this week, we are really gonna be diving into the
33:07
Philadelphia seventy six ers and what we've been seeing from this team as of late.
33:12
So lots of great content coming for you here at the PST podcast show.
33:15
I'm Jeff Warren. You can follow me on threads at mister Jeff Warren
33:21
the show. You can follow on threads at Philadelphia Sports Table. I'm on
33:25
ex Twitter at Jeffrey Underscore Warren, and the show is there at Philadelphia PST.
33:32
The experience has just gotten terrible over the years, but we're still there
33:37
anyway. Folks. You all take care, We'll catch you on the next
33:38
episode and enjoy the rest of your day night. Whenever you're listening to this,
33:44
take care. We'll catch you next time.