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What I've Learnt - Michael Klim · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, with the release of his new memoir, Klim, the 47-year-old Olympic swimmer discusses his struggles as an elite athlete with a debilitating autoimmune illness, and how writing his memoir is part of his healing.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: A moving and inspiring story, he also talks about his adventurous grandmother from the communist bloc in Poland, the woman who taught him how to swim, and how he met and now has united with his current partner, Michelle Owen, on a mission to find a cure and help others tackle this insidious disease.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so Michael Klim, welcome to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thrilled to have you here.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a pleasure.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now I see in the background there, and I'm it's actually quite quite relevant to my first question.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: The photo on the cover of your book, your recent memoir.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at it, I'm studying it as I'm about, you know, when I started reading the book.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really poetic.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It looks vulnerable, it sort of looks strong, and yet there's something like I'm looking at that photo and I'm like, it's a very powerful picture.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me how it reflects your journey of writing the book because it's it's quite multi-layered, just that image.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, I think um I had a pretty clear uh understanding of what I wanted on the on the cover, and obviously my my bald head has been a statement um and a representation of me for many years, but I think uh I didn't want the photo to be perfect, retouched.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: It, you know, it was actually I'd I'd flown in um to Brisbane at about 1:30 in the morning.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: By the time I got to the hotel, it was about 3 a.m.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: and I the shoot was starting at about eight.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't really get any sleep.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to the set and I, you know, and I said to my friend Simon Upton, who was shooting it, I was like, mate, I'm knackered.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just not sure if I'm gonna, he's like, well, you know, we're gonna capture that, and we're gonna capture your your tiredness, we're gonna capture, you know, everything like emotions come through a lot more vividly, as you said, uh, in a in that kind of vulnerable state.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think a lot of people are very used to seeing me in a very kind of um almost a superhero kind of pose or in an athletic arena.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: But this is uh it's almost for me, it represents what it has been because there is moments obviously I I'm very happy now, and I'm you know, I've endured a lot, but it's still, you know, in my eyes, you can see I've been through a lot, and I think that's what um the cover should represent.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's an authenticity and a fragility, and I have to say it warmed me and I couldn't wait.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: I it made me want to read the book because it didn't look like a touched-up, pristine, as you perfectly reflected.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: There was something I knew I was about to embark on a very intimate journey, and that's the tone that that sets.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting that that was something that you made a point of reflecting, as did your photographer, because we all know how much you know that that can reflect, that can easily be tweaked, and sometimes it's the authenticity that tugs at our heartstrings.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: You strumming on air, like the air guitar at the Sydney Olympics in 2000, it was momentous.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: After beating the Americans in the four by 100 meters, freestyle relay with Ian Thorpe and your crew, it was actually it was pure gold on every level.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: The exhilaration was palpable, really, for all Aussies, but it stopped a nation and it sort of stopped the world actually, because it really put swimming and Aussies on the on the world stage at a in a whole new way.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was explaining it actually to my kids who are a little bit younger, but I was trying to explain that it was just so bloody awesome.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: We were all just like jumping around, it was so exciting.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, how was that high and the friendships and the camaraderie that you could see you're all slapping each other's backs and hugging each other and crying?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was really, really emotional.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: How was that for you?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And how did that cement those friendships for you?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I I I think when it comes to sport and the opportunity that we had to have a home Olympics and to be at our the the peak of our sporting careers, or for me anyway, kind of in that in that period, and most and you to also be competing on the opening night of the Olympic Games.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and there was a lot of obviously there was drama with that relay, a lot of theater with Gary Hall.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of theater, yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there was this enormous uh sense of anticipation from the Australian public, a lot of kind of scrutiny from the media in terms of what the Australians are going to deliver.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there is this all these different layers that we were aware of, but we're not necessarily consumed of that.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're, I guess, you know, going down to the nitty-gritty, we're ultimately just swimmers.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we, you know, we love swimming, we've been swimming our entire life.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: But to be at that one moment, to have that opportunity to race at the biggest kind of stage of all time, um, and then have, I guess, a a race that that almost, as you mentioned, has been one of regarded as one of the best races in history in Australian sport.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: For us, you know, at that moment, we didn't know what it was going to create.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that every four years, I'm um, or not not just four years, I talk about that relay really frequently because it does illustrate what Australian sport is all about.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: We do tend to perform above our, I guess, our ability most of the time.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: We like being the underdog, we're very resourceful, we're not scared, we take on the giants and sport, and and I think that's what it illustrated for us.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, that those relationships with all the teammates, and especially the guys I've had in the relays from the you know, four by one and four by two, you know, we we've we'll have that bond forever.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, we know we do message each other every September 15th, and uh we say, you know, whatever years ago we created history, and um, we just remind ourselves how how special that was.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as we get older, you know, the the legend gets better and better.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: But um it is something that, you know, it is obviously an honor, but also um for us, it's yeah, we don't take that too, we don't take it lightly.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: We do um appreciate that we've been part of such an amazing moment.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think also you became real, um, well, literally, like rock stars.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, you know, I mean, it was really because swimming, as as you pointed out also in the book, I mean, that the smash them like guitars chapter, you know, you refer to that sort of all the nuances of what happened at that time.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: At that point, Olympics, Olympics full stop was always watched and and revered, but this brought it into a whole new, sort of like a golden era.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: What about the recent Olympics?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: How have you seen that?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, Aussies, yay, wow, like insane, incredible, way above in terms of you look at the stats.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite extraordinary, isn't it?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's it's really interesting to compare.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're um on on paper, this this recent Olympic team has you know surpassed the team of 2000 and 2004, which previously were the most successful Olympic teams that we've had.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at that, and even the world of sport has progressed in general, where there is a lot more depth in the in the world of swimming, it's a lot more competitive.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the countries that were competing at the highest level, there weren't that many.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And back in 2000, you still had the the might of the US, you've you know, you had Australia, you had you know, a few, and a few of the kind of the European nations.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now the depth of you've got swimmers from all around the world, you know, vowing for for medals.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So for us to to dominate, you know, it's especially women event, women's events, and um, you know, with Emma McKinnon becoming the most decorated Olymp Olympian that we've ever had and surpassing Ian Thorpe, and it kind of you know speaks volumes, but also in this new era that um, you know, a couple gener, you know, a couple decades later, with you know, different pressures from social media and different kind of um, I guess, boundaries that the athletes have to be aware of and exposure that they that they're managing.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think for us it was very simple that we didn't have too many distractions.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the paper was probably the only thing that could, you know, derail you, but there is so much scrutiny from a social media point of view.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can really, I look at these young athletes from Molly O'Callaghan to Ariane Titmers and um Kaylee McEwen, where they are able to, you know, promote their sponsors, talk about their journey, then celebrate their wins, but do it on this platform.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no way I don't, you know, even me as a consumer on social media, I I get you know sucked into that vortex.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really, I give so much you know, kudos to to the athletes of this current decade because it's it's much trickier than what it used to be.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think you raise a really important point, and um, the scrutiny is is uh pretty intense.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so therefore the deliverables, which are already at an elite level and so studied and fine-tuned, you can only imagine what that does to your brain in terms of your, you know.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, as you mentioned before, you just focused on the swim, the pool, your teammates, bam.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas now it's much more complicated and layered.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think you would find that now if you're in the Olympic, there's some of these people's stage of competition?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Would you find that distracting?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think it's just a home skill and they learn to manage it?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think they've learned this over the, you know, over the years.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I see athletes phone before they jump, you know, they go jump in the pool before training or before competition.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and it's um it's almost it's definitely the norm.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I was very, you know, I was very sheltered.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I, you know, even from phone calls or messages, etc.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing that, you know, the I understand why the athletes have to do that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh there is, it's become very competitive to get corporate endorsement and sponsorship.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there is obviously with you know the corporate space um that really was on that bandwagon in the lead up to Sydney, everyone wanted to be part of the Olympics, and anyone that was part of that Olympic Games as an athlete, the corporates wanted to be part of that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think it's also with the world of sport becoming more competitive, the the competition for the corporate dollar has become just as competitive in in that space.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, but again, it's a very fine balance.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you obviously don't want to overdo it and uh sacrifice your training or your devotion.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there are, I know Kaylee McEwen is so professional that you know she's still on social media, but she will never compromise her training schedule to do an appearance, for example, or um, you know, anything that that still comes first.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the the guys that have reached that pinnacle have got a very good set of priorities, which they um, you know, which proves why they're obviously ultimately our best.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in fact, it's just another layer of discipline, is what you're saying.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just if you're disciplined about what you're doing, you just have to apply your discipline, and many of them do to exactly as you've outlined.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're a great role model for many, many Aussies and globally too.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sports people are not sports people, like you know, you've set quite a high bar and also been very open and honest.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: If we can just reflect briefly, you know, it's hard to believe this.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I was reading this in your book that your nickname was Lumpy, and you say you're a chubby kid who couldn't speak inverted, commas, good English.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you tell this great story when you're 11, you moved permanent to Australia, joining the Melbourne Vic Center and met Nicole Livingston.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you said the older boys carried out initiations, hanging you on clothes hooks, which it's hard for me to visualize, and putting you in a garbage in garbage bins and throwing your clothes in the shower so you had nothing dry to wear.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like beautiful bullying in its pure form.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you said you know, fellow swimmer Nicole Livingston made sure they didn't go too far, and she made you feel feel safe.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that just wouldn't be tolerated today, right?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so many rules around like you even look at somebody the wrong way and you're answerable.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: What did you learn about the power of well, I suppose you were young, but the power of what you can become and where you start and how you can hone yourself and withstand things like that?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's that's pretty scary as a young new migrant.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: You were trying to adjust to Australian society from from I think Poland, Germany, yeah, then Canada, you know.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I've traveled extensively and I'd I'd lived in five different countries prior to arriving in Australia, and I always felt a little bit ostracized in a sense that no matter what I went, I was always the new kid and you know, looked slightly differently and couldn't speak the language.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it I you know it's interesting, it's interesting now that I almost speak for a living.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I became very kind of introverted, I was shy.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one thing that helped me express myself was being in the pool.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think my personality would come out in that, you know, I knew that I was better than some of those old guys.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason they were probably trying to um in, you know, were trying to have fun with me is that they were probably getting annoyed that I was catching up to them in training and I was even passing them at times.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I see that as, you know, I used it as a bit of a a challenge, you know, they're doing it because there is a little bit of element of fear rather than I didn't let it get to me because it was in the in a real happy place for me.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Swimming was for me a sanctuary for many years, and no matter where I lived, and um I'll I lived in Toronto in Canada for 18 months, and you know, going to training at minus 20, 30 degrees and jumping in the pool, then going to school, catching buses and and et cetera.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And those sort of things, I don't know where this drive came from.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: It it certainly was almost innate.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I I um and I'm really glad that I sort of found that sort of passion almost really early in my life.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, some of us search for that our entire in our entire life, but I had this kind of possessive um attitude towards swimming, and it's it was only really towards the end of my career when you know my body wasn't really aligned with my my mental kind of uh I guess I had this drive even to the day I retired, and my body couldn't match that.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I I had to call it quits.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, so I I don't think it really affected me that, you know, I look at it with a uh with a bit of tongue in cheek, and um, you know, there was elements when I wasn't happy, and my dad would come and defend me, and Nicole would make sure that I wasn't um uh, you know, everything was pretty safe.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I don't think uh, as you can see, I didn't mention any names in that in that passage.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So interestingly enough, two of those, two of the guys that were um executing those initiations ended up working for us at Clim Swim and running the swim club and the swim school.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you know hard feelings.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, hopefully it'd make it suffer.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually a really good example of what you learned when you were young and how you came full circle.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just great for other young athletes or other people in any form of um activity where they're trying to be the best they can be and they feel like someone's putting their leg out and tripping them up.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really good way to deal with it.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Humor, take it on board and use it to actually become your power tool.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really good example of what you've learned.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about, yeah, because you talked, you I actually had a note here that you talk about swimming as your passport to acceptance.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's that's sort of a slight variation on what you've just said, but in a way, you always felt a little bit like an outlier from what you've described.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so definitely for me, swimming was, you know, the the commonality that I had with anybody around the world.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: If it, you know, if I traveled and I'd walk through the, you know, the doors of a swimming pool or a club.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, there was that fraternity, the swimming fraternity was the same no matter what.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was very family-oriented, it was very amateur.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: It, you know, there was um it is almost a bit of a mass kind of program.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt quite comfortable in that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I never, um, even in in Germany when I was sort of training in a small junior squad.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, that that was, and because that became my identity very early in my in my life, yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was, you know, being called the swimmer guy or the swimming kid or whatever, almost, you know, from the beginning of primary school.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um I used, you know, I've been fortunate enough and using the word passport, um, swimming opened so many doors for me and allowed me to travel and educate myself and learn about myself personally.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it's I've I've seen so much, I've met so many people, and it um and it's purely because of the sport.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very grateful that um I did pursue that passion.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the universality of swimming, I suppose, is is really what you're referring to.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and you've obviously had an extraordinary life as a result of that pursuit.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: The the expectation, the discipline, the constant pressure.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um do you think like it's an innate ability to be able to handle that?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like so young, first of all.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you did it for so you know, you talked about also in the book your, you know, your upbringing was, you know, your parents worked hard.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: There was a, you know, your dad was, you know, your mom would be at the factory.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: There was a sense of a very strong work ethic, from what I can understand.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's enculturation from family or and community, or do you think that's innate or or a hybrid of both?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more of a hybrid of both.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was something that my parents knew they had to do if they wanted to provide the best for the family.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, my dad was highly educated.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Same with my mom, she was a pharmacist.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you know, there are restraints when you migrant and some of your qualifications don't get recognized.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when we were living in India, both of them had to get work in factories.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so it was it was um almost a little bit disheartening to see that because dad had come from a very successful position as a you know, working for the consulate, and then as um, but I I realized that they were doing this because they wanted to provide a very um, I guess, a very sort of free um opportunity for for us, for myself and my sister Anna.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it was all really leading for us to have as much choice and um opportunity for for our future.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think maybe the drive that I had in in sport was kind of fueled by knowing that this these choices and sacrifices my family and my my parents had made um was for us.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and I never felt like that was pressure, but it was something empowering.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think you see a lot of um migrant sports people and people from you know disadvantaged backgrounds do so well in sport because for them it's an opportunity, it's a it's a breakthrough, and it's you know, they're not entitled to it, they haven't been handed on on a on a silver spoon.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so true.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why it's it's for me, yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think and um I I didn't I don't know if I ever used it as a motivation, maybe it was intrinsic, but it's um yeah, it definitely I do recall those times very vividly.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that that is another very good point, too, that often it's it's looking around and saying just how the opportunities you were given.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And your sister also thrived and did extraordinarily well.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, talk about two incredible siblings, you know, her on the tennis.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, my sister was it's it's quite interesting.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I she was uh very studious, she she finished an MBA that didn't went to Monash, and um, but through her sporting career, we were very much a tennis family.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh my dad had a tennis background, and you know, we I was hanging around tennis courts pretty much my entire Higher childhood, even when I came to Australia.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we travel the you know the country, and I tried to play myself, but I didn't really have the temperament.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: But she was a national champion for the 16 and unders in Australia.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And she had got accepted to the AIS, chose not to go, stayed home, continued on the circuit and satellites, but um she had a few sort of injuries that halted her progression.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, she realized that after a while it was really hardgoing.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: But so she fell back on her education, worked for PwC, and continued her kind of professional career and has been very successful.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um Yeah, it's like that same, that same though, that that same incredible drive and focus.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she made obviously different choices, but it is something that certainly is a theme in your family.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's an interesting observation.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know you two are very close.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, you know, this, I mean, as well as there's just so much I could, you know, reflect on, like your upbringing and and even just, you know, you talked about that experience when you were called at school, they they called you in because there'd been the Chernobyl accident, and you know, like insane stories in this book, which I won't reflect on everything because we've got limited time.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: But people will have to buy the book and read it.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't give it a book.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just giving them a little snippet.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you worry about that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: But also, um, you know, you've obviously been, you know, I know you were married and you've been through divorce, which is not easy, it's quite challenging, and you had family in Bali and Australia, and you're across going across back and forth, and you've got kids.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how did you find that in terms of there are different mountains we climb, yeah?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or pools we swim to use your own.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, look, I it was um, you know, life after sport for athletes can be challenging.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think a lot of athletes don't prepare themselves with the right set of skills for for that new chapter.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the time, you know, the the skills that we had in sport don't extend to the resources that you need in in everyday life, and you know, you you're not no longer a center of the universe, uh, and there are other little and a superhero, as you said, you know.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's little mouths you have to feed, there's a job you have to go to provide.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: There is, you know, so I one mistake that I probably learned I uh or I made that I I took that kind of really high, sort of fueled attitude in terms of um passion and drive into business.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I started a skincare company and I was relentless at sales and distribution, and I'd you know I was working really hard and um the business was was thriving, and we managed to get some you know private equity on board and it was continued to grow.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: We we distributed in 16 different countries, and and then I decided to come back for it at the London Olympics.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I was training for the Olympics, I was running a business, I had two kids, we just finished doing a property development, and I think about that period in my life, and I go, I right now I struggle to do three things at once, you know, and but I but I do them well, you know.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I even like I really want to be engaged with the conversation we're having today.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was this kind of this mindset of it'll almost like throw the the net out as much as possible, and you know, you don't want to let anything through the through the cracks.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that something that I learned that is it that that comes at a cost.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually for me, it came at a physical cost with my condition.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Also prior to that could come at a mental cost.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my my relationship suffered, and it's very hard to have your family base in one country, commuting back and forth 25 times a year, running a business.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I was and I was still training really hard, you know, working in the business sort of let's say 14, 16 hours a day, and still socializing and burning the that candle.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Where, you know, I don't think I was great at even though I was preaching it and I was doing it to a degree, but I really wasn't uh really wasn't balancing that life very well.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a typical difficult period, but I think it that transition uh where it where the kids sort of had to spend a week with me, then a week with their mum, it it took a little bit of time to get used to, but they're they're they were really sort of um you know adaptable.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I think I look at we're still in that same same kind of week on, week off after, you know, so many years, and um, the kids have adapted so well.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And pretty much every divorce would have that period where two or three years there is you know difficult emotions and you deal with them on the personal level, but our priority was never to pass that on to the kids that they would feel um you know that they're in any way at fault or if they were um used or anything like that.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it is it was a difficult time personally for myself and my ex-wife, but um, you know, looking at the kids today, you know, I think they've they're doing quite well.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: There is obviously the oldest one probably be the one that remembers that period the most and vividly and might have have have memories from that.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: But we've we were the the focus was making sure that transition didn't affect the kids.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what you've I mean, and and I think what you're reflecting on there also is children are quite resilient and given the right framework and given the love that you've obviously, you and your ex-wife both have demonstrated to the kids from what I've read and what you outline, they'll be fine.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they're actually so lucky to have someone like you who can guide them and shape them, and also your authenticity and being honest about lessons learned, it's a really good example for other men as well.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like you are, you know, you're not sitting there with bravado, you're sitting there with with a fragility but a strength.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love, and I think that's really important.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, our listeners will really resonate that, many of whom I'm sure have been through not a dissimilar journey.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I I come to the point where you obviously your system has started, you know, you finished the Olympic run and you start to realize that you're probably heading towards some sort of retirement phase and you've gone through the divorce.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and so tell me when your symptoms started to appear for of this autoimmune disease and and how it sort of was it slow, was it, you know, how did it emerge for you?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of almost uh it connects to that last answer where I was still very much you know running at 100 miles an hour.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: But our business had business Milk and Co.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: had relocated to Sydney.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had, you know, was still community back and forth from from uh from Bali to Sydney to sort of facilitate the business.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um I started sort of having a few symptoms from old injuries creep up.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a really bad ankle that um that I broke many years ago, started giving me trouble.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And also I had some prolapse disc in my back that started giving me trouble and you know, some sciatic kind of symptoms.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and I kept on pushing.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is around 2018, and you know, I'd continue to train hard, I'd strap my ankle, I'd tank paid killers, I'd, you know, I'd I'd sort of I didn't want to address this, address it to the degree that it needed to.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I did have a sports physician who, you know, made sure that it was, you know, he reminded me, you know, you need to take care of this, and I can't treat you if if you're over there.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: You need to, and I wasn't taking it as a priority.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was getting frustrated that you know, I couldn't get certain sort of medications to to help me um, you know, overcome this.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't about that, it was about me prioritizing my um you know, my health.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I started in in 2018-19 getting weird sensations in my legs where my feet would go numb and I'd I'd get tingling on the inside of my thighs, and sometimes occasionally getting uh like a feeling like someone's pouring water down the back of my leg and really weird stuff.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'd and it almost and also weakness started appearing.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd and I'm just while I say that, I want to encourage any listeners that if they have those symptoms just to get them checked out.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: It may not be an autoimmune condition, but there are many sort of conditions that represent similar kind of side effects.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So um it'd be great to anything neural would be great.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: The sooner you get onto it, the sooner you can absolutely either either heal it or you know, stop it.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Treat it.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but I I did it, you know.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my that was my my downfall, and I continued to push, and you know, we at by that stage the business had actually changed hands.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: I sold it and I was staying on as a GM.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so there was new pressures from new owners, and it was all it was it, you know, it was a I'd gone through actually a bit of a toxic relationship after my divorce, and there was a lot of pressures, and I wasn't really managing myself very well emotionally, physically, and even though I was living in Bali, I wasn't really making the most of my environment.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh there was a period really where um I I started, you know, I I was going through airports, for example, and my legs would give way and um and I'd have to sit down and I couldn't, you know, until I'd I'd I'd get my feeling back.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, there was I'd go for a swim, I realized I couldn't really kick.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but the the final straw was really when I I went to see my doctor, and um, you know, this after many biopsies and many blood tests and MRIs, etc.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, which had shown nothing.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: That it had shown nothing at that point.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look at the biopsies.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: The biopsies had shown you know, higher proteins, and there is there is that we knew that there was something wrong.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Was right by that stage, you know, my muscles started wasting and my legs, and we knew we're trying to to get to the bottom of it.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I we it said, let's operate on this bad ankle because it's you know not only giving you pain and it's giving you grief.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so we started doing that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Then after I started rehabbing that the the ankle that was that was fixed, and and I noticed my opposite side was not even responding.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it was this kind of this surgical procedure that tipped me over the edge, and that whole system just crashed.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And within six months of that, I was unable to walk.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it really it um it's very stressful.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was a it was like this almost like it was a catalyst to all these kind of neural things just going heywire, and yeah, you know, I've I lost literally all my muscles from the from the knees down, and my feet were kind of dangling from my ankle.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so that was terrifying.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Within six months of the surgery, was that yeah.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it was uh um, you know, by that stage I was lucky that I'd already met Michelle and she was on board, and she's seen that kind of decline pretty quickly, and um, and also that year was the start of COVID, 2020, and um there was another spanner in the works where geographically I was in a very sort of uh awkward position where I couldn't travel back and forth for for treatment.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it was it was a tough time, and I was still kind of defiant that it wasn't going to be that bad.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I I spoke to the doctors sort of mid that 2020, they said you have to come back, we need to do your back now.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And by that stage I was being treated, but it was uh it was officially in June 2020 that I was diagnosed with CRDP.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so so really the it was reasonably it was over a period of a year.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that that really accelerated?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Probably between it yeah, one to two years.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was, you know, probably recognizing the other symptoms from other injuries as you know, could have been underlying that there was more neural stuff going on that I probably uh witnessed, but I I I would say at least a year.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a bit of a shock on many fronts, not only to your system, but to your lifestyle, to your choices, where you live, how you are a parent, you know, everything.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So and and it's interesting I've because when I was reading about it, I mean, obviously there's this sort of surreal irony that the very thing that uh protects you, uh the very thing that you loved, the water, is the very thing that's gonna help heal you, as I've understood in terms of you do a lot of the treatment in water.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: I finished the session this morning and it looked there was so the there was a gamut of emotions going through through me at that the initial the initial period was was the hardest two years of my life, and there was resentment towards my body, there was anger, um, there was this kind of anger thinking like, well, why do I deserve this?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you you know, like I've done, you know, then almost this I was scared because you know, I was able to use my body, my physicality to even it build the brands that I worked for, or even the that I built were based a lot of on my physical appearance and physical ability.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly that was being taken away.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and even with the treatment, I started looking like a like a balloon, and there was a lot of things that you know I I felt like my my character or my personality was being kind of sucked out of me.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: I became extra grumpy, I can be grumpy at times, but I became grumpy, uh depressed.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I wouldn't had no motivation to to do the things that I love, like exercise and no self-help things.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I started masking a lot of emotions with alcohol and painkillers and just not always being present and not connecting, not talking to people.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, yeah, I think there was a defying moment in that journey that I actually I don't know what it was seeing my family and and Michelle saying, we are doing everything we can, we're just as scared and and about this unpredictability of of this disorder, CRDP, that potentially might end up in a wheelchair or stay like this forever or might get better.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: But um, we can't do anymore.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's really in your hands now to try and heal yourself.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that that means I took that very, very much to heart.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I had to change a lot of a lot about my lifestyle from diet to the environment and exercise and you know, all the tools actually that were very much second nature to me as an athlete that I kind of didn't take on in the initial part of this condition.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, really brought them back as uh, you know, as it as the tools that have got me to where I am today and really prioritizing life and uh prioritizing time with the kids and not really sort of um, you know, I yeah, I find the things that give me joy is still movement and still getting in the water and um doing meditation and doing ice bath and eating well and you know, enjoying the outdoors.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we went skiing for the first time in 12 years, and I thought there's no way that with my condition I could be able to ski.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you know, like I had to change my mentality to think let's don't don't think about all the things that you're leaving behind that you won't be able to do again, which there's quite a few, but there are still so many amazing things that I can still do.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And watching the Paralympics right now, you know, it's been really humbling because I see these phenomenal humans, you know, achieving, you know, like there's you're not only pushing the the envelope of what is physically uh possible, but with that mentality of, you know, you can't stop me.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um and something that I wanted to to change.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then yeah, so that I think ultimately, and then my thinking in general changed where it wasn't me trying to receive help and being healed, or it was me being in a driver's seat and helping me others in this same condition, and you know, obviously the lifeblood campaign has been a great vehicle for me to, you know, extend that awareness.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the Klim Foundation, which is launching this month, is is another vehicle where I'm helping carers and sufferers with you know what anything that they might be going through with this condition.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there is it's um it's I guess the tide has changed where it's not really all incoming, it's kind of all outgoing.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's it's been um it's been refreshing.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I I look at life in a completely different way now than what I did three years ago.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my condition is very similar if you looked at me now to back then, but my outlook on on life in general is very different.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's so fascinating because I mean I've interviewed you know many people, and the the shift in how you've outlined the shift in perception is so much part of the healing.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the giving back and helping others is also part of the healing, because not only is the practicality of that, but also for you, what it does is it takes you out of your head and into somebody else's life journey.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me a little bit about the lifeblood and and just some of the things.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, how common is this condition?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not very common at all.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, one in about 50,000 to probably, yeah, around one in 50,000 people get it.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I I get probably at least one to two people a day messaging me with that condition.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot of people, a lot of people, and that was the kind of the catalyst for us to start the foundation and for them to have this community to to converse with and also to share stories.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there is it there is pros and cons with forums, but I think we're going to create a very sort of wholesome community where it's you know positive and and empowering.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: But um it was it was by chance that one of my you know friends who was working for my management company had moved moved across to to work for lifeblood.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and there was, I guess, the medicine that I consume every six six weeks, I have in infusions of IVIG, which is plasma derived medication, which all the with all the great antibodies and it helps inflammation and and makes your body a little bit more robust is is plasma derived.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I I felt that you know there is there couldn't be a a perfect, more perfect match than what it was with me, where you know, obviously people were could most people could relate with me.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh could you know, this condition could could strike anybody really.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're we partnered together, and I've been really fortunate that um, you know, the the stocks of both blood and plasma have been very consistent.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: We do still go times where you know it's more it's needed more than others, but um to be uh ambassador for such a great organization has been uh is been a blessing, and and I um have enjoyed that um thoroughly.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that uh yeah, I hope to continue the messaging because these autoimmune conditions and it's not just autoimmune, but there is you know obviously plasma derived medications used in cancers and um even in childbirth, there is a certain sort of uh plasma uh medication that um mothers are given around that time.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it is very, it is it is very common.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's definitely given me a new purpose as well.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so the Kling Foundation is also obviously focused on this mission.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that the foundation is looking for?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it donations, obviously financial, but beyond that, involvement and spreading the word and awareness about this is um yeah.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the foundation, what I found through my experience, it it is the scariest thing is the unpredictability and lack of information that you get about the condition and potential treatments and you know what's next.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then adaptations to lifestyle from footwear to walking aids to physiotherapy to shoes, first of all, create that community so people can follow latest research, information, general sort of patient handbooks and um, you know, some protocols from dietary to exercise, etc.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then um, but then also create a funding opportunity where we can either supplement some shortcomings that they might have.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: I met a great uh great kid the other day, Eden, who is 16-year-old CRDP sufferer and was wearing a really sort of probably um inferior pair of AFOs, and it was really affecting his walking.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, in his mom said, Oh, you know, NDIS only covered this much, so that's why we only got that pair.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there is it's not necessarily about finding a cure, but it's always it's about sort of giving people the lifestyle they can have, potentially that we can be part of some medical trials and and helping um finding a cure or medication for for this condition.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: That there is certainly a lot of movement from the big farmers that are investing quite a lot of money into this space, but we've already sort of put in um an application for a grant to engage AI in analysis of biopsies, etc.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is getting a little bit too medical, but it is no, but there's yeah, that's so interesting because it will be predominantly you know, a community that that can really one, that they know they're not alone, two, that we can provide them services from counseling to potentially physiotherapy, etc.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um that directory of services is really important where you know it's really hard sometimes knowing where to go.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where to go, absolutely.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so common with so many of these conditions where people just get lost in the system.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the work that you're doing and also the the stories that you're telling and the lessons that you've learned yourself when you're teaching our listeners and also those who read the book, it's a great book and a great read.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to thank you so much.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: I've loved chatting to you.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I could talk for another hour because I love hearing your story.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully you'll come back again because uh you have a lot of lessons to learn and a lot of lessons to share.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Michael.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Deborah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a it was a great chat.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the books are out there.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to find out some of those more details, it's um yeah, it's it's out there in in the book.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, I really enjoyed the chat.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Love Deb.