Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Holly's Son Was Wrongly Convicted, this is her story... | Fireside Chat 250

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Holly's Son Was Wrongly Convicted, this is her story... | Fireside Chat 250 · Honey Badger Radio

• 1:51
  Speaker 1: You told me you couldn't even lucky for security. Oh suddenly,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: say let's begin. Indeed, Hello everyone, and welcome to Honey
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Badger Radio. My name is Brian and this is the
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Fireside Chat and today we are continuing our series where
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: we're talking to people and with about their experiences either
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: directly or indirectly with the military justice system with regards
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: to false allegations and their consequences. And today I'm joined
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: by Holly. Welcome to the show. Holly. Yeah, it's good.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: It's good to have you. You came highly recommended by
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Arvis and others who have been on the show, and
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: apparently you have a story. It's not about you, it's
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: about your son, right, So first tell us a little
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: bit about yourself, your background, and I see your son's
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Is that his picture right there next to you? Okay?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Thirty years. I retired in two thousand and six. While
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I was a police officer, I was a patrolman on
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: the street, working out of a police car and handling calls.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: That was my job. I'm also the oldest daughter of
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: four daughters, and I have two daughters of my own,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: so women's issues have always been very important to me.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I've been an advocate for them, and I have been
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: especially sensitive to the issues of my female and my
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: children victims when I was on the streets to Toledo,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: extremely sensitive to their needs if they were a victim
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: of crime. So it really took me by surprise staff
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: that suddenly switchbacks completely in twenty thirteen when my son
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: was falsely accused and wrongly convicted of a sexual assault
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: in the military, the one of which the evidence clearly
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: shows he's innocent, and he's been sentenced to thirty years
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: in prison for eleven with Kansas.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Wow, so did you deal with these kinds of cases? Well,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: you know what, tell us a little bit about what
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: happened with your son.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, he had been in the Air Force for
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: over ten years. He had deployed six times. He was
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: a decorated combat veteran. He had also achieved his associates
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: and his bachelor's degree with honors and criminal justice. He
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: attended the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia and
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: became a Federal agent and became an OSI Special Agent
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: with the Air Force. So, for your listeners, if they
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: don't know, OSI is the detectives of the Air Force.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: CID is for the Army, and CIS it's for the Navy.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Just so that's what his job was. It requires a
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: great deal of betting, and they went to hundreds of
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: people to make sure that he was crying free before
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: they gave him that position in twenty thirteen. In the
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: spring of twenty thirteen, his command came to him and
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: asked him to stop deploying so often. They said they
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: wanted him to concentrate on criminal work stateside. Now he
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: had not really done in criminal work state side. He
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: had excelled in counterintelligence work overseas. But he went to
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: work on that, always trying to do his best job,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: and soon uncovered nine drug dealers, nine airmen dealing drugs
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: on the base at Fort Herbert Field, Florida, airman dealing
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: drugs to other airmen. He charged and arrested those and
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: then very shortly after that, commands shipped him back to Africa.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Deployed him back to Africa. While he was in Africa,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: he started conversing with the young lady he met online
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: through Craigslist. And they're talking back and forth and sharing
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: instrument details of what they're interested in, and they want
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: to meet as soon as as he's back in the States,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: and she says, so, you really want to see what
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I look like?
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: And she was in the States. He was in Africa deployed,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: and I assume at the time he's single and you know, available. Yeah, okay,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: so she's so she said, she wants to meet or
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: he wants to meet up so you can see what
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: she looks like.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you want to know if I'm a trick
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: or not. And he said, well, of course, and so
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: she immediately sent him a new photo of herself. They've
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: only been talking maybe fifteen minutes.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Whoa.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: So this was June when he was deploy He comes
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: back in August on the ninth of August. By the
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: tenth they've already met and hooked up. And she became
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: angry with him because my mother was dying at that point,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: and she died on the eleventh of August, and she
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: was angry with him for having to go back for
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: my mother's funeral. He said that should have been a
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: hint to him that there was something wrong.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: She said, I have given well, I think the nude
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: photo fifteen minutes after. I think that's a bit of
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: a flag too. But I understand why so many men
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: just kind of let that slide, like, well, I guess,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm that charismatic, you know.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Home for the funeral. She was angry that he wasn't
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: taking their relationship Serious's been talking online now for three weeks,
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: so she comes home for the funeral. In the twentieth
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: of August, he returns to Florida and back to work.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: They continue to date and sleep together for the next
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: three or four weeks, and on the fourth of September,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: he breaks off his relationship with her. He said that
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: she was acting really strange. She was sitting outside of
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: his house at night, watching his place. He just thought
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: that this was way too much, so he ends the
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: relationship and she's hysterical and he tells her, I don't
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: want you to have to drive. If you're that upset,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: you can spend the night if you want. I'm going
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: to bed, feel free to crash on the couch here.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: He goes up to bed, gets into bed, and she
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: comes up later, gets completely naked, gets into bed with him,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: puts her shoulder underneath his armpit, and lays her head
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: on his chest and attempts to initiate sex, but he's
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: like no, this relationship is over now. In all honesty,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: he's got a girl that he's more interested in that
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: he had just spent the evening with a few nights before.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: So that's, you know, a girl that he really, really
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: deeply cares about. So this young lady we figure was
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: trying to get DNA at this point, but heaven because
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: it's over. So he eventually she just thought she wants
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: to go home, and he walks her to the door
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: make sure she gets to her car. She left his
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: place that night and went to a civilian hospital. She
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: asked to have a rape kit done, and she asked them,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: what will you do if I have a rape kid
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: done here? They said that they would call civilian law
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: enforcement and they would arrest him. Today, she decides not
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: to have the rape kit done. She leaves the civilian
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: hospital and she goes to a military hospital, in which
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: case she has the entire thing test done with them
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: and she can make her report either restricted or unrestricted.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Restricted means she's collected all the evidence, but she doesn't
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: want to go forth with the case. Unrestricted means they're
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: going to start investigating, so she makes it restricted. But
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: later on that day, when she didn't show up for work,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: and she was in trouble with her command for not
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: showing up for work. She decides to make it unrestricted.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: I was raped, That's the reason I didn't come to work.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: So she was. Was she also in the military then
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: that she had joined.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: The military six months before she was studying to be
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: an air traffic controller. She had joined the military hiding
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: a felony conviction that she had had prior to joining
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: the military. At that time, the Air Force was taking
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: absolutely nobody with any criminal history at all. Air traffic
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: controllers civilian world, military world cannot have a criminal history
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: at all. Being that job. She was hiding that, and
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: she was about to undergo a special security clearance as
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: she ended as she finished the end of her training
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: for air traffic controller, and it was going to be
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: discovered that she had that. So by making this claim,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: she protects herself because several women in the military, they
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: have been in trouble on their on their own trouble
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: that they got into. If they say that somebody rate
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: them or they were sexually assaulted, all their trouble goes
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: away and all heats under the guide. That could have
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: been the reason she was doing this. It could be
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: just jealousy that she was seeing he was seeing other people.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know her true motifications, her motives, but she
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: does have a phony conviction and here's her looking for.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: So in the Air Force hid this information from us.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Our defense attorneys asked for criminal back ground checks on
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: everybody involved in the case, and they they purposely hid
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: this from us if they found it. They stated later
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: one day before his post trial clemency requests went in,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: which was in twenty fifteen, that they that it was
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: available to us. It was not. I we only found
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: out about this filly felony conviction because I hired two
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: guys from Toledo who were police officers and now run
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: their own little detective agency, and they found it. That
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: would have made a great deal of difference during the trial.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: She lied to get into the Air Force. She lied
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: to stay in the Air Force.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Wow, So go on, Okay, So yeah, the.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Say nurse did, didn't the whole test and I and
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: she found nothing. Okay, she found they found no signs
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: that any sex at all occurred, claimed an extremely violent rate. Okay,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to just tell you what she said.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: It's kind of horrified as his mother and as a
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: police officer, I'm going to say that nobody goes through
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: this kind of assault without a mark on them, Okay.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: She stated that he held her up by her neck,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: off her feet until she eyes were bugging out, but
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the nurse says no marks to her neck. She says
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: that he punched her in the mouth until she could
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: taste blood. The nurse did swabs of her mouth, no
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: blood found. She stated he threw her on the ground
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: and they rustled around nose tears to her clothing. She
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: stated that she had bruises on her thighs and her
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: legs from a previous incident and from this incident, no
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: bruises found. And they brought in special Agent Andrea Rondenbergen,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: who was the lead agent at that time in his unit. Now,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: of course they're not going to let his unit investigate him,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: so they bring in people from Quannico. But meantime, the
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: very first interview, this agent Vannenberger came in. I think
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: she was a major at the time. She's since been
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: killed in Afghanistan. But she asked her to move remove
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: push her uniform back, and she also couldn't see any bruises. Okay,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: this is all in the testimony court. Right in the
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: testimonial court, she states that she was badgingly raped and
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: orally raped. No semen found no signs of any trauma whatsoever.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: They brought in a woods camera and the nurse explains
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: that that is so that you can see de coccretions
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. You know what. The room darkened,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: So they went over her whole body.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Oh yea like to.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Look for any kind of trauma at all. Found nothing.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Then the Quantico, the agents that came from Quantico Virginia
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: asked for a special subdermal camera to be set because
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: she claimed that he bit her on her shoulder so
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: hard that she was screaming and faint. They looked under
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: the layers of her skin to see No trauma was found,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: but they knew the camera was working because they could
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: see the different layers of her tattoo. Okay, so she
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: has absolutely no signs that this occurred. Then they took
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: his phone and they went back through his phone on
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: all the fifty two days of communications between the two
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: of them. Obviously, you know what they found. They find
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: these photos and the very explicit requests for what she
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: wants him to do to her mm hmm. Thing we
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: know the phone is destroyed while it's in the hands
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of the prosecution. To me, that was the biggest red
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: flag of the police officer.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So did what did they say? Wait, you said that
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: this is your son's phone, my son, which they were
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: taking as evidence and going through it. Just so it
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: just happened that it was destroyed, like they said, Oh
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the phone, it's destroyed.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: BlackBerry phone. They took it.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Oh it was government it was a government issue phone.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: He was in Africa. But also they took all his phones.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: They took his personal phone, the BlackBerry phone, So the
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: BlackBerry phone has all the communications for this fifty five days.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: He was an African and she was here. And then
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: they put it special agent parodies from Quantico. He puts
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: it into evidence. Next thing, the agent Vandenberg and finds
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: it laying on her desk and she's going, why is
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: this phone on my desk? Where does it belong? And
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: they said that's Condon's phone. She goes, why is it
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: just laying out here? That's a broken chain of evidence.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: She turns it on and it works. She puts it
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: in a fair day bag which is to keep it
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: from being remotely accessed. She puts it in that and
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: back into evidence when it comes out of evans next time,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: it's broken, okay, the.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Projeg like physically broken or it just doesn't turn on
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: like somebody.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: They can't charge it up. They can.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: They didn't tell you like how it was broken. Did
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: you see it?
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: No? I didn't see it.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: No, So they just told you the phone is broken
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: and sorry.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Right, and so they're looking at they have to try
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: to get into it with the electronic Are you still there?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here. Can you can you see and hear me?
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: It's screen, I can't see you anymore, but you can
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: still see me.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: I can still see you. Yeah. So what you're saying,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: are you on a computer like a laptop or something. Yeah,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: it might have just gone to sleep or something, but yeah,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: you might just move things around and then it'll come
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: back up. I don't know. Maybe all right, if you
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: can hear me, I can hear you.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. Anyway, So then so they're gonna do a
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: chip off.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: They had the FBI offered, NCIS offered. That wasn't good
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: enough for them. The prosecutor made the decision to hire
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Global compu Search to do that chip off. What's ironic
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: about this is that three months earlier, we hired Global
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: comput Tech to be our forensic expert in this trial.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: They went in and hired the boss of our guy
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: from that.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Point on nothing, so they hired Okay, so you let
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: me just let me just get this straight. So you
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: had hired a service called compu tech. So essentially what.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Global compuse search I believe it's.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Called Global compu Search. And what do they do? What's
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: a chip off?
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: They were going to do a chip off of this
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: BlackBerry phone and there's a chance that they'll be destroyed
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and those images will be gone forever, and then there's
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: a chance that they'll be able to recover them.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and then and then the people that essentially
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: are on the other side of this, they hired the
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: same organization, but they hired a guy who's like higher
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: up on the food chain, the boss of the boss. Right, Okay,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: all right, that's it. I just wanted to know what
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: that that is. You can continue. What what is it?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Is it?
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: What is a chip I am okay, okay, some kind
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: of thing only.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Tis Yeah, it's like a deep dive thing. I'm sure
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: somebody in the chat that's watching knows what a chip
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: off is. I'm sure that we have some big brained
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: people in there. But anyway, okay, so what happened next?
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: So they hired this guy, They hired the same company,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: but they hired the boss of the guy that you
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: had used. Yes.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So so during the chip off, the phone is
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: destroyed and they said, all those messages are lost forever. Well,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: you know when I text you and you text me,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: my messages are on your phone. Your messages are on
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: my phone. You know what I mean? We can recover
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: something that Monica had two phones, okay, and she decided
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: to give the OSI agents in this case her old phone,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: the one that showed five days of them breaking up
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: and not the fifty five days that they were communicating.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: She put her new phone at home, okay, and she
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: didn't let that come out now. Agent Vandenberger puts right
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: in her original notes, Monica has two phones, collect both phones.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: It's right there in the notes. And our agents from
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Quantico just didn't bother. Our attorneys asked for that phone,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: and the judge said, I don't think there's anything of
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: value on it and wouldn't allow them to have it, okay,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: So all that evidence was gone. But I think because
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: they knew that they had a bad victim, okay, and
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the air Force, all the military is under the pressure
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: from Congress at this point, and there's under such pressure
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: that it is to believe the victim. To believe the victim,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: they should say, believe the evidence. Okay, they don't. It's
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: believe the victims. So if somebody makes an accusation, you're
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: supposed to believe her no matter what the evidence shows.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Or at least use that as your starting point.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: What they do in the military, at least at that point,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: that's exactly what they were doing. They were believing the
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: victim over the evidence. And in this case, I believe
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: that the investigators knew that she was lying. They knew it.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So in order to make this thing go forward, they
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: had to start recruiting women to be victims. So the
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: next woman they went to was his partner Anna. She
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: had been with him on the arrest of the nine
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: while he was in Africa. She took two of the
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: cases to court martials and got convictions. She dates him
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: sometimes and then she also has a boyfriend in another state,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: so she's on again, off again and on a situation.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: They see each other in the Red Door Saloon, which
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: is a bar that he frequents. Off she's there celebrating
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: with her roommate, who just got a new job. They
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: flirt back and forth all night long, and she is
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: supposed to go somewhere else to sleep that night because
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: they were supposed to be all able to drink it
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: at will. She makes the decision that she wants to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: go home and sleep in her own bed, so her
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: roommate brook is going to be gone for night. Her roommate, Brooke,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: and her fiance Brooks fiance take her back to the
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: apartment she and Brookes share, and as soon as Brooke
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: in top leave, she begins calling my son and asking
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: him to come over. He said, look, Anna, we've both
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: been drinking. Let's not do this wrong. We already agreed
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: to go out to dinner together on Sunday night. Why
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: don't we just wait till then. But Anna knows her
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: roommate doesn't like my son, and she knows that she
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: has the place all to herself tonight, and so she
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: says to him, really, he says, I mean, what would Anna.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: He says to her, what would Anna think tomorrow? We
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: should be happy about this decision, and she said, if
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: you don't come, I'll call somebody else. So he really
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: likes this girl, so he goes goes to her apart
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: my forty five minutes later, knocks at the door. She
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: opens the door wearing her pajamas and they're together now
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: around three in the morning. He's having trouble breathing because
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: he's allergic to her cat, so he wants to go home,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and so he texts her a message, you know that
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I'm leaving. I can't breathe, I don't have my clarene
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: in and will for it's making me, you know, all congested.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: He goes, I'll call you tomorrow and we'll go to
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: dinner on Sunday. She wakes up a short time later,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: and she's angry that he left, and she said, wait
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: to make a girl feel well, you know. And the
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: prosecution makes it she was passed out drunk as the reason.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: He's but he was drunk too, right, I mean they
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: had both right, He was.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Drinking, she was drinking. Crime is the guy? How come
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: the girl can't consent after one drink and that's what
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: the and that's what the standard was at that time.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: If a woman had one drink, she could not consent
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to sex.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: It still is the standard, and it's unique to women
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: too well. I mean, generally men can handle their liquor
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: a little bit better, but that doesn't that shouldn't. It's
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: a biological reality that's nothing to do with the law.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Right, feminist, all right, as a feminist, I'm kind of
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: offended that you said, consent to sex with my own
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: body after one drink. This is equivalent to me, as
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: a police officer if I stop a woman who's drink
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: drunk driving and she suddenly points to her boyfriend next
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: to her in the passengers and says, it's his fault.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: It's ridiculous.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: M hmm.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: If you can drive with one drink, then you certainly
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: can consent to romantic liaison after one drink. It's ridiculous.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: So anyways, she's angry with them, and she wants him
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: to bring her the Plan B pill and he says
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: he'll be happy to do that later in the day,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: but she says, not right now, because guess what she did.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: She called somebody else. So there's another guy.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: There, like another man oh okay in there at this time.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Now, she did that because she wanted to make my
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: son jealous. She used this guy repeatedly to make my
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: son jealous. But that's what she did. She did call
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: somebody else, Okay.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And so this woman on right.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: She special agent herself.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: She is a what OSI special agent herself. Okay. So
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: so going back to the case, So you're saying that
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the military courts wanted to get more witnesses to sort
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: of strengthen the case against your son. So they went
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to Anna and they tried to like take her experience
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: that scenario and turn it into something more nefarious because
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: it strengthens the case that her his original fling was
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: already you know, the the girl with the tattoos that
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: claimed that he violently raped her. So they're basically just
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: building a case and they're using like anything that sounds
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: like it could pass as a means to deliver this. Right,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: this is why we're hearing this other story. Okay.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: They start fresh Honor. They found out about some minor,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: minor misconduct on Honor's part, and Anna is given immunity
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: to testify against my son on a sexual assault. So
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: this consensual relationship they had on the thirtieth of August
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: becomes now a rape okay, under the pressure, and yeah,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: because she's promised immunity on her own minor.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Mistakes that honor gets an offer, right, and they're like,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: if you accuse him of rape, right, we're gonna what
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: look like dismissed her other in that other thing she did.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: It's like a tit for tat a little.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: With us, then we will quit pro quo. Yeah, Okay, Now, Anna,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: she didn't. She's not a dumb girl, and she knew
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: that a lot of the pressure, a lot of the
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: way they were treating her was wrong because she had
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: just finished the advanced course and sexual assa investigation herself.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: That was her job, and this unit is to she
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: was sent for this special training because that was going
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: to be her job, okay, And so she knows that
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the way that they're treating her is not right. And
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: so later on in the case, and they held my
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: son in custody three hundred and forty four days before trial,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: trying to build a case. Okay, that's a violation of
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: speaking trial. You only have one hundred and twenty days
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: to hold some many custody before you bring him the trial.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So Honor wrote a three page letter to the convenient authority.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: The convenient authority is the guy who's the charge of
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: the base. He's the one that decides if cases go
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: forward or don't go forward. And he's running the base,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: and it looks bad for him. You know. If he's
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: got nine drug dealers, it looks bad for him. If
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: he lets an OSI agent go because of sexual assault,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: it looks bad for him. Okay, and he's up for general.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: So Honor wrote a three page letter. I have taken
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: out some of the parts that she states. Can I
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: read to you what she says about it? Sure?
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It's a three page latter, so I tried to pare
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: it down to just so that you can get the point.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: On the third of October twenty thirteen, you signed a
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: letter granting me testimonials immunity in exchange for my cooperation
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: with this investigation and testimony at trial. Since that time,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I have been very unhappy with the way this investigation
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: has been conducted and no longer wished to testify. From
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: the beginning, this was never an investigation that I wanted
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: to be a part of. First, I had a personal
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: relationship with tex Sergeant Condon, and I felt my participation
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: would be a betrayal to him. Special Agent Parodies took
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: my phone from my hand, placed it on the desktop,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and began snapping photos of it. I told him multiple
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: times that this made me uncomfortable. Response was to criticize
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: my reluctance by implying as an agent, I should know
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: better that forfeiting my phone's content should be expected. I
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: decided to let them take the photos they needed because
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: it would help. Despite Special Agent Parodies's continued offenses, she
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: was presented with a search and seizure warrant for her phone.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: It was made adamantly clear to me on several occasions
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: that I was obligated to turn in my phone as
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: part of my immunity agreement, that the immunity required my
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: full participation. It was implied that if I did not
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: consent to release my phone, my immunity agreement would be void.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I later learned the search incedure authorization provided for my
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: phone was not legal. I felt the immunity agreement was
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: used as a tool to manipulate me into testifying and
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: has been held over my head at every step. I
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: do not believe these tactics are ethical, nor do they
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: uphold the values an integraty within our legal system. I
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: have tried to tolerate feeling mistreated because I felt I
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: was doing the right thing. I am not so sure anymore.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: The government's actions have left much more significant impact on
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: my life than anything between tech Sergeant Content and I.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: This is something I want to put behind me, not
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: just because I feel so mistreated by the government, but
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: because tech Sergeant Content is someone I care about. Okay,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: so she's saying she was they're saying she was raped,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: but yet the government has left much more of a
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: significant impact on her life than anything between her my
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: son and her.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm mm hmm. Although I think your son was
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: probably more impacted by this than she was. So I mean,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: it's great that she points out that this has been,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: you know, a problem for me, but I think that
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: it's really been a problem for him so or at least,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: we haven't gotten to that point yet. But so what
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: happened next? So we have they're they're using this, these
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I guess incidents to like build a case, and even
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: some of the people involved, or at least this woman
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Anna is not pleased with the way that this is
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: being used, but they're going forward with it anyway. Correct,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: So so what what happened next?
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: So okay, so now we're going through September. They've taken
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: his phone and they start going through and speaking to
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: every single woman in his phone. Okay, So the next
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: girl that they get to is Jenna. And he had
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: met Jenna on plenty of fish dot com and they
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: dated on and off for two years. And the last
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: time he was with Jenna, she saw him at the bar.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: She said, Hey, I moved to a new apartment. Why
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: don't you follow me home? He was on his motorcycle.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: She was in a She asked him to stay. They
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: of course had sex. She had three roommates in the house.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: She never screamed for help. This consensual situation became a
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: crime when they needed it. The next morning, they got up,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: he took her out to breakfast. They went up to
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: a house where she was dog sitting, fed the dogs.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: He came back and by that time it stopped her
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: and he took his motorcycle home. Okay. When the OSI
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: agent went to speak to her again, special agent parodies,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: she told him, and I'm going to stay right from
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: the record of trial. Okay, okay, he says, now, you
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: would agree that it's important to tell the truth when
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I'm talking with law enforcement. She says, yes, And you
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: understand that it's important to the investigation to be honest.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: And she says yes. And during this when you spoke
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: with Agent Parodies, she weren't fact truthful with him, She
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: said yes. During this interview, agent Parodies asked you about
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: your sex life with Tech Sergeant Condon. He did, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: you said it was a pretty normal sex life, yes,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: And you said he never forced himself on you. I
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: did say that, yes. And you said that he never
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: took advantage you in a drunken state, and she said, yes,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: you told Agent Parodies that you were one hundred percent
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: willing every time she says yes. So he convinces her.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: After I don't even know why he's still talking to her. Okay,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: after she said all that, why is he still talking
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: to her? But he needs to make a bad case
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: into a good one, so he has her write her statement.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: So she writes a two page type written statement.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: It's a bit my heir, Okay.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: When you get down to the end of it, she said,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: he convinced me to have sex the man. The man.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: The man says to her, this doesn't describe a crime,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: and he has her crossout and right in what would
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: make a crime? See how it's a hand written at
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: the bottom.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yep, I see it. Yep. So the way that she
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: wrote it was not useful. So they're like, you got
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: to rewrite this, okay.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And he told her what to say to make
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: it a crime. Okay, yeah, Only this is continuing bad
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: behavior on the Air Force's part. They consider this continuing
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: bad behavior because technically, I'm a happening for Monica, and
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Monica happened and then Jenna. So now they're going to
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: use this to put him in pre trial confinement so
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: that he can't really help with his case. Okay. So so,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: in fact, there's a police report. They had her go
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: to the Okaloosa County Police Department and in their police report,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: it says Agent parodies Often told me that he located
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: another victim who was sexually battered by Condon, increasing the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: number of victims to three. He said that per the UCMJ,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Condon would now be classified a serial rapist and arrested
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: as such. Agent Peregees said upon contests rust he would
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: be transported to Charlton. He was transported to Jacksonville Naval Brick, Okay.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And so, of course, as his family were concerned, and
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: we hired we hire our own personal attorney, a man
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: named Roper, Eric Roper. He had been a Navy commander.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: He was out of the service now and doing criminal
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: cases in Jacksonville. That's where they moved my son to
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: five hours from his home, so he can't come in
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: lawyer as he knows, and so we hired mister Roper.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Then as soon as he came to trial, they moved
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: him five hours away from their attorney. We paid fifteen
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars for it, okay, making it impossible for him
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: to help with this case in anyway, okay. And they
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: put in a civilian facility named Santa Rose A County
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Jail for seventy one seventy two days. Santa Rose a
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: County Jail has been found to starve prisoners. My son
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: lost forty pounds during this tene. They had to put
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: him in solitary confinement because he was in the military,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: and they held him there seventy two days. The lieutenant
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: colonel in charge of the legal office told the attorneys.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Santa Rose a County jail makes it very difficult for
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: attorneys to they have contact with their prisoners, you know,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: and so let me know if there's a problem with that. Okay,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: think about that. Okay, you're trying to come up and
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: plan for trial and they have moved you five hours
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: away from your attorney to a civilian facility that she
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: knows makes it difficult for him to have communication with
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: his lawyer.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but this further makes it harder for him to
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: fight for his innocence. It makes it harder for his
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: lawyers to fight. Did they bring any more women out
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: of a out of his black book or they tried? Okay,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: they did, Okay.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I just want to say that Jenna had been telling
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: her friends that she was in love with my son,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: that she wanted to marry him, and she was never
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: a victim, which they could have easily checked her phone.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Jenna said, I understand during the article thirty two, which
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: is like the grand jury, and cried and said, you
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: don't understand how much in love with him I was. Okay, Now,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know about I don't know about all the
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: other women out there, but I would not be in
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: love with my rapist, Okay, I would.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Not be well of course not, of course not.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: But again like but again, she's using her The Air Force.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I want to say this, The Air Force used these women,
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: They used honor, and they used Jenna to build a
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: case that was a bad case to begin with. They
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: did not care about their feelings, didn't not care about
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: the trauma that they put them through. They did not
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: care that they destroyed, honest a career in the Air Force.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: They and Jenna everything that Jenna charged. He was found
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: not guilty, but they put her through the pain of
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: sitting on the stand and being fired at questions and
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: being embarrassed when it showed in her phone clearly how
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: many times she's asking him to come over what she's
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: offering if he does come over that She said the
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: day after, this was a fun day anyway. She told
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: her friend she had made bad decisions the night before.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Her friend said, rob decisions. She said, yes, but it
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: was a fun night anyway. This is the reason my
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: son's put into pre troilt confinement for this fun night anyway.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: So you see what your guts here. So yeah, I
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: mean this is the now. So did they try to
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: bring out other women. They brought in a woman from
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Boling Green, Ohio. She did not know his name. She
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: knew his name was Robert. She called him Robert Auger.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: My son's last name is tattooed on his chest. Okay.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: She didn't know whether he had tattoos or not. The
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: judge didn't allow her to be a victim. He didn't
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: allow it. They they went to his best friend, whose
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: name is She goes by her male name, which is Joe.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: The Air Force came there. She didn't want to speak
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: with them. They called and said, we want to talk
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: to you about your friend Robert. I have heard a
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: letter here. She would They wouldn't tell her about what,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and they wouldn't tell her what. Robert. She said she
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: had met him and destin Florida through mutual friends, and
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: they soon became fast friends. Hung out almost daily with
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: a group of their mutual event friends. She rob shared
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: many details with me about his life and his thoughts.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: We enjoyed talking about many things. He would tell us
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: about the girls he was seeing and introduce us to them.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: He is what I would describe as a calm person,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: even a peacemaker. I only saw someone try to pick
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: a fight with him once in a bar, which is
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: rare in a tourist town, she said, and he calmly
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: diffused the situation. The incident ended in a handshake. She
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: never saw him be inappropriate with anyone. Now this is
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: also a very long letter, but I'm going to come
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: to just some of these little things. She found from
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: the family that he was going to be out of
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: pocket for a while, and she assumed it was work related,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: so she was confused when an air a woman from
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the Air Force called the schedule of time to talk
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: about her friend Robert. She seemed put off that I
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: asked her to confirm the person she was referencing, since
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I have no affiliation with the Air Force, and she
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: was incredibly unclear as to why she wanted to speak
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: with me. She declined the meeting. They reached out again
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: and asked her husband, who was with CID Okay in
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: the Army. My son and he had the same job,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: but in different branches of the service, and asked and
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: asked the lead investigator to clarify one they wanted to
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: speak to him. This woman told him that rob had
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: my phone number on his call list and was quite
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: simply concerning this matter, and it was wise to speak
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: with them so as to avoid being subpoena and risk
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: facing ill treatment in court. Two female investigators came to
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: my home while I was alone home alone as her
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: husband had deployed. They asked strange and frivoless questions about
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Rob's girlfriend Anna. Later in the interview, things took a
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: drastic turn. One investigator said, what if I told you
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: that we have evidence that you're having an affair with Rob?
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: What would your husband think about that? She says, I
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: remember being so blindsided and shocked by this question. I
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: felt my body lean across the table. I looked her
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: in the eye and said, I would tell you that
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: you don't have this evidence because I am not having
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: affair with Rob and I have never skyped with him.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: She got up to get her computer to prove this,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: and she said, we have skyped conversations between you and
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: him and a girl named Joe. And you go by Joe,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: don't you? And she said, yes, I go by the
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: name Joe, but I have never skyped with Rob ever
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: she found She said, I found it so odd that
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: they would threaten me with false evidence and insult me
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: in my own home with an accusation of an affair
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: while my husband was deployed, while also refusing to explain
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: why it would be a victim and what charges Rob
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: was actually charged with. She felt very disrespected by the
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: investigators and also found their week tap to fish for
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: some type of wrongdoing on my part and Rob's part
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: to be despicable. She said, I was sad to see
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: the Air Force investigators treated military spouse or any woman
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: as a pawn in their investigation. I found the treatment
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: of the Air Force told me to be unprofessional, dishonest
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: and inipiladd I also have no doubt that they treated
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: other women just as poorly and in eple. Okay, that's
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: his best friend. Then they went to a woman who
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: shares the same name and spelling with my daughter. They
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: saw on my son's phone him having a chat I
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: am nor text messages back and forth with his sister
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: about what bar she was in college at the time,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: what bars they could go to when he came home,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: and who and people she wanted him to be. Okay,
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: they went to Afghanistan and try to make that agent
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: into a victim. She stated she knew who he was,
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: she never dated him. There was no relationship like that.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: They went to other women that he had been with, Megan,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: who was in the Air Force herself. She said it
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: it was her sex life get out. So they just
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: continued to do this through. They went all the way
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: back to high school. They talked to the first girl
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: he was ever involved with in high school. Okay. He's
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: been in the military ten years, okay, and and had
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: perfect service. He'd always been rated the highest rating on
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: every evaluation. He'd been promoted up to E six. I
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: think at this point they were constantly listening as promote
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: before peers, and this this is the attempt that they
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: were going to. So as soon as they arrested him
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: and put him in pretraut confinement, the convening authority of
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: the base went to the judge and demanded that all
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: nine cases, all nine drug cases, be dismissed, even the
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: two that Anna had already got convictions on Why. The
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: judge argued and said, they have nothing to do with
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: each other. Once a sex crime, one's a drug crime.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: But he allowed it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: So the drug crime because I remember you told me
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: that your son is the one who caught those people.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: He's the one. And so after that and that was
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: sort of like I guess it was ongoing, but there
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: was you know, or it was looking like it was
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: going to be a conviction. But while that's going on,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: these sexual assault cases come out, right, So it's while
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: this drug thing is going down, these sexual assault CRIK
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: cases come and it's like a barrage from all you know,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: it's just throwing everything at him. So then I was
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: just gonna say, Okay, I want to ask questions around that,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: but maybe we should get to the end of the story,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: like what where is your son now and what's happened?
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: So my son, he was all right. They went all
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: the way till May. They were supposed to start trial.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: They come to court, and.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: That just passed May twenty twenty.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: What year, twenty fourteen. He's on October tenth of thirteen.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: He's brought to trial the first time. May of fourteen.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: They've gone over there one hundred and twenty days. So
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: the rule is the case is dismissed. The judge allowed
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: the case to be dismissed, but he also allowed them
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: to refile. They refiled their charges against him, and they
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: had four more charges. So the government screws up and
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: ends up in a more aggressive position against my son.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: They set the trial for July. In July, they do
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: not now allow enough time for the case, and the
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: judge has to go to Guantanamo for a case against
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: the terrorists. Okay, so he pushes. They pushed the whole
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: case of September. Now my son's been in jail right
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: three forty four days. They find him guilty and they
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: sentenced him to thirty years in prison. Okay. At that
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: point in time, a friend of ours had done a check.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: He had pulled up the Air Force convictions from twenty
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: ten to twenty fourteen. July of twenty fourteen, as of
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: that time, no one had gotten it a charge of
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: thirty years for a sexual assault, no one. Okay. There
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: was one man that actually committed a burglary in a
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: deployed person's house and with a gun and raped that woman.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: He got twenty years on a pre trial agreement. Okay.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: So and that was a serious that was an actual crime.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: With this lack of its okay, they give my son
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: thirty years? Why? You know at why and an air
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Force in the Air Force first of Judge j. Brown said,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: you're giving him way too much time. He said, that
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: while supposedly this was much more significant, there was reasonably
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: mistake of fact because he had been with these women before.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: There was plenty of mitigating circumstances. There was a lot
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: of unlawful command influence, and he said that the judge's
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: arguments that the Trial Council's arguments were flawed and not allowed,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: and the judge exasperated them by exasperated them by not
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: correcting them. They they at the time, they kept referring
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: to his status as an OSI Special Agent. Judge Brown
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: says he cannot be held to a higher standard or
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: given more time because he's an OSI Special Agent. But
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: like I said, nobody else had ever gotten thirty years
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: since he's been in prison. He saved the law with
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Chelsea Manning when she tried to hang herself. He was
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: working as a nighttime janitor.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Wha, wha, wha wait, wait a minute, he saved Chelsea Manning.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Chelsea Manning's live.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Chelsea Manning, and she tried to hang herself.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Try to hang herself, okay, And was working as the
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: midnight janitor on the night shift. Everybody's locked down. He
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: hears the guard yelling to Manning standing outside the cell
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: he said, it was like a.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Co ed prison then there, or there's a women's wing
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: and a men's wing, or.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Handing changes, and she was a man when she went in,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: and oh, oh.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, okay, anyway, go ahead.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Fans gender. So the guard is yelling for help. My
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: son said, you need my help, and he said, yes,
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: come on up. So when he went up, he found
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: that she was hanging by her bootstraps, her feet were
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: off the ground, she had a pielcase over her head.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: She had already vomited it, she had already urinated. And
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: he said, oh my god, she's dead. We have to
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: go help. And the guard said, I cannot go in
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: until my backup comes. And then my son said, well
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: I could go in. So he went in and held
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: her up and he yelled, a guy, please get in
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: here and get these offers her nack and he is
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: trying to get the laces off around her neck. And
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: they come in and they tell him to go back
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: to a solemn hotdown. Okay, but what would have been
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: the harm to the United States Army from the transgender
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: community if she had been successful, which she very well
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: could have been by that time that the backup got there. Yeah,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: the one who saves the life in prison. This has
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: been noted many times, receives time off their sentence, you
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: know as the reward, not one day. My son hasn't
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: received one day off since, and he asked to admit
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: his guilt. So he and his lawyer wrote admission of
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: guilt because he wants to come home. He's been there
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: eleven years in two In July of twenty twenty two,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: he was scheduled to take their treatment okay, which is
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: basically group therapy okay. But in twenty twenty two, when
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: it was time for him to take the treatment, they
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: suddenly ripped that treatment away and said union in miitt guilt.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Soon enough, we're moving you back years before you can
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: get the treatment, okay, otherwise he'd be home. So in
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three it was the first time he could
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: put in for parole. So he asked me to go
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: to the federal prison system, which I did and got
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: their treatment, which they is in book form. They send
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: out these packets so to cover all our spases. He had,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: sexual offender, substance abuse, contentious relationship, domestic violence. He took
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: all all of those. He says, it's like college work.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: You read the stuff, you fill out the paperwork, you
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: send it back in. They give you a certificate, okay,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: of completion. You put the certificates of completion in his
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: parole packet. The best packet. The people who took it
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: at the level at the prison says, a bad packet
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: they've ever seen. Five offers a job, five places to live. Okay.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: A lot of guys can't get one. They have to
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: go to halfway house, big time families, sport. Okay. I
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: in these packets that he has been writing books since
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: he's been in prison, and a couple are published.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I have one here. Well, you told me
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: about the one book, right, I'm going to show it
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: on the screen for people. The Invisible Casualty. Is that
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: one of the ones that he wrote. You have it
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, I'm displaying it for people. And I
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: put a link in the description to the Amazon website.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: But you can get it. You can get it at
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: others Barnes and Noble and nine and.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: You get paperback for like twelve ninety and I think
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: I saw and that describes everything that they did during
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: the trial to deny him his due process. He was
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: an OSI special agent. So he is first and somewhat
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: in that they got Texas and what that was supposed
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: to be like. So this year again he hasn't had
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: the treatment. He's like thirty five on the list. He
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: may not have it for next year. So this year
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: I hired a psychologist to talk to him by phone.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: This cost me over two grand. He's diagnosed, as he says,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: there's some crazy sexual stuff. Mostly he has chronic PTSD.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: And the he says in his report this, if he
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: was not suffering from serious PTSD and drinking excessively at
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: the time of this election crime, this would have never happened.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: I say, it never happened in the first place. The
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: evidence shows it. But the evidence, oh.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it sounds okay. So he has been diagnosed
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: with this PTSDSD. And what was the other thing.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: He said, alcoholism? He thought he was suffering from alcoholism,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: said mission, probably in remission because corciands and drank in
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: eleven years.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Right, But okay, So is this something that he knows
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: he had, like maybe even before he went to prison,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: or is it something that they're telling him he has,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Like they're gaslighting him into believing that he's crazy.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: In our family. We knew that he had PTSD. He
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: came to the outer banks.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: He was in Afghanistan. Is that where? Yeah?
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Mostly what happened in Iraq is what Iraq. They were
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: hit buying ied his commander. The guy in charge had
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: his arm nearly ripped off. My son said, there was
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: so much blood he thought that he had been hit.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: He had to return fire. He had to gather these
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: two trucks together. One guy. He walked off and called
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: his mother. He said, under this chaos, he managed to
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: get buddy care for the guy. He saved his arm.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: They got back to the base, netticks were there. The
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Army gave him an award, okay, for that combat, for
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: that situation. The Army, and he's in the Air Force.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: The Air Force gave him award for under his investigative
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: work to find the uncovered and the arrest of seventy
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: seventy two or seventy eight Taliban fighters. My son was
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: credited with that his work and uncovering where they were,
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: where they were, holding up who was involved with who,
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: and taking seventy eight people off them.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: It's okay, So then, all right, so legitimate PTSD for
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: legitimate reasons and then but despite that, and you know,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: I could see people drinking or smoking or doing something
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: to like help cope. I think that's human. But despite
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: all that, the military seems to have essentially like made
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: things way worse, like it was. He already served our country,
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: he already did all of this, you know, his duty.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: And I guess the only thing it seems to me,
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: And again I don't know where we're at in the story.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you're done, but it seems to
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: me that the one thing he's guilty of is being
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: attractive to women and indulging in that. Like I mean,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: that's what you know, like and and this is well,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: I just you know, I warned guys, Yeah, I know
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: you I warned. I warned guys about about especially getting
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: involved with you know, with one night stands. It's just
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: the political and legal climate is just way too dangerous.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: It's way too hot. And you know, I've talked with
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: arvest Owens about college campuses a bit and how bad
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: things are there for men, and you know, it's kind
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: of a similar thing where you have, like the college
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: has its its right tries to handle everything, uh internally,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: but the while the consequences can be really bad, like
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: guys get expelled and you know, things like this. The
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: military can be even worse because you can just get
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: thrown in jail. Like they're more harsh in military courts
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: against uh the accused without strong evidence than civilian courts.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: It seems.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I asked Andy, consider what we call me.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: Indian's name is Robert Andrew Kunnon. I asked him to
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: speak out a counselor or PTSD, way back way back
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: before this happened, and he said, if I if I
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: go to counseling mom, then I can't deploy. And if
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be a soldier and being most effective
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: for my country, I want to I have to be
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: able to deploy. So he put his own mother's advice
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: and his own welfare aside to deploy and to do
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: the best work he could for the country. And maybe
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: that that's crazy, but that's how gung ho young he was.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: That he felt that to be a truly effective military man,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: he had to deploy, and so he put that off
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: for himself, and look what happened, you know.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: So it's all the reality is we need people like that.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the reality, we need people like that
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: and so, but we should take care of those people.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I mean we should, we should certainly take care of them. So, okay,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: we've gone for about an hour, but I want to
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit longer, if that's okay with you,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: definitely okay. So I have a couple of super chats,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: which are basically like messages that people send in they
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: send a couple bucks and they can make a comment.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: So I have a couple I want to read out.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: So Albert Nata Retro gave us. I think it says
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: two dollars. I can barely read it, and says, Holly,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry about what happened, thanks for sharing with us.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: And then he's and this is Canadian dollars. And then
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: he sent another two dollars a Canadian and says this
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: is related to the drug deals somehow he suspects. And
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you if you want to say
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: anything to either of those comments, I okay, all.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Right, I have to. I put that out there just
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: because I found it so unusual that they told him
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: not to deploy. And as soon as he as soon
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: as he uncovers this, they're upset and they redeploy them,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: and that they use that opportunity to dismiss those nine cases.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: I have no way of proving positively that it was
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: about the drug cases. But you know, whose son, whose nephew,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: whose grandson might have been one of those?
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of them who benefits from these convictions.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: Three of the nine were on this handpicked group of
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: young airmen called the Airman's Council. They're handpicked by higher
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: ups in the Air Force as future leaders, people they
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: consider to be future leaders of the Air Force. Three
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: of those guys were on that Airman's Council. So again,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: you know somebody's son following in the tradition in the
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Air Force. I don't know, cannot prove it. I absolutely
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: cannot prove it. It just seems the thirty years when
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: you know a serious one gets twenty. The average our
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: friend went through all one hundred and sixty nine cases
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: when my son has found guilty one hundred and sixty
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: nine cases from twenty ten to July twenty fourteen. The
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: average time given is three point three nine years. The
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: highest one, and that was a serious actual All kinds
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: of DNA proved, all kinds of injury to the woman,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: husband deployed, broken window, brought a gun. He gets twenty years. Okay,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: I have to ask why why? Because he's an OSI
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: agent with a flawless career before this happened. You know,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: I have to ask why, and you have to drug
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: cases have something to do with it.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe, uh, thank you, Albert. And then I
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: got one from Richard Bierre gives us five and says,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: was the defense council in the nine drug cases a
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: military jag officer.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: By any chance, Okay, repeat it, okay.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Was the defense council in the nine drug cases. So
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: the drug case, a military jag officer by any chance,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: acted by.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: A charge in the military gets a military gets a
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: military lawyer. They can have a lawyer of their own
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: as well. I do know that when we went to
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: see my son and he was in the Santa Rosa
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: County jail, they were also holding two of the drug
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: guys there, so they saw him, you know, and I'm
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: sure there was some Hey, the guy that arrests us
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: had just been arrested, you know, but they charged, they
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: dismissed these cases. One hundred and twenty days before my
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: son was charged with end crime. He was under investigation,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: but he hadn't even been charged yet, hundred and twenty
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: days before he was charged, and they just they took
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: that position so that it does away with innocent to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: proven guilty when you dismiss those cases one hundred and
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: twenty days before the guy's even charged. So I don't
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: know exactly who their lawyers were, could very well.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Be okay, And I have a couple of questions as well.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: So first one I want to ask is what are
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: you going to do now? What's the plan right now?
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Do you guys have something I know that I know
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: that I have it shared that there's a petition that
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: is sort of a more broad thing. It's called would
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: you dooc care that Arvist told me about. I also
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: the freear Warriors dot org. So uh, but that link
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be working. I don't know if it's
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: maybe the wrong it says. I get a Wix error
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: message from it. I don't know if it's it's been
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: taken down or what. But but what are your plans?
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: What's the next thing for you guys?
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: What's the next step fighting? This is really great that
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: you're doing this because it lets me get my son's
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: entire story out. I don't usually get a chance to
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: talk this much when we go to the deck. I
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: pad I've spoken twice, and I'm going to read Sarah's
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: letter at the next one, show how the women themselves
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: were being mistreated by the military in their endeavored to
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: try to get these convictions. We just keep fighting. We're
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: hoping that someone will start looking into the case. If
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: you want a conviction integrity unit. One of the ladies
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: on a he's an expert in that kind of thing,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: says you need to trybunal to actually go through every
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: single case and show it. Will I have the proof.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: I'd be happy to show anybody the proof that he
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: isn't guilty. He isn't. There's way too much stuff here
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: wrong with this case, you know. Yeah, I mean, and
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: I just touched on things, you know, they did other
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: other crazy things. You know. I basically spoke about each
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: girl and how how that came to be. But when
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I he asked me to take his car and move
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: it off the base because he said wallet's on the base.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: Anybody can do anything to it. They can put drugs
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: in there, they could do anything. So we requested his sergeant,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: could we get his car off the base and the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: sergeant took us out to this car. He went through
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: the entire car. He said, do you mind, I said,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: absolutely not. Take go through. We went through the entire car.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: He took his military equipment out, and he escorted us
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: off the base. That they ran that guy over the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: coals because he did that. He didn't do anything wrong.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: The car is not under arrest. I take the car
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: and I put it in an airplane hangar. His friend
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: owned to be stored while he was on this three
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: hundred and forty four days. And they make that a
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: big They make that obstructing justice. My son obstructing justice
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: because he asked me to take care of his vehicle. Now,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: how is that obstructing? You know?
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: Like I said, And the sergeant, who was an OSI
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: agent himself, went to the whole car, searched it, made
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: sure there was nothing in there that that that they needed.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: They were convinced there was a phone in there. There
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: never was a phone in there. Mm hmmm Hm. Sack
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: in charge is hoping something will stick exactly.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Well, they got him in. They got him in there now,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: and they might I don't know why they would, but
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: it looks like they're looking for ways to you know,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: keep him in there. Okay. Another question is did any
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: of the after all that's happened and what are the
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: consequences of what's happened. Have any women other than the
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: ones that you already mentioned, have they come forward to
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: like the first girl right, that was like she did
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: this out of like bitterness or out of whatever. She
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: was pissed off. But did she ever like come around
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: and say, I think I took this too far. I'm
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: going to, like, you know, change my statement. I'm going
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: to fight for him because I think this is like,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: isn't it Isn't it just amazing that she could be
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: that spiteful.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: She was put out of the Air Force, probably because
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: they know about the felony and they didn't want her.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: But she's paid as a sexual assault survivor. She makes
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: money like a pension. She gets paid for a line.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard that they take care of women in
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: the military when that happens, They give them, they give
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: them money.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: Lost her career because of this. She went back to
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: Las Vegas. She's married and she's a counselor or family counselor.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: At this point, she scared the death of the government.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: I sent my investigators to talk to her. She ran away.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: She said, I'm not talking anyway from the air force
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: of the government. They said, we're not from there or
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: so the govern were from Kinden's family, and she stopped
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: and she talked to them. But she's afraid of the government.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: She's afraid that they'll come after her, and she's afraid
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: that they'll take the money that they've been paying her
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: all this time.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: So make her pay it back, right, Yeah, kind of
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: a trap. It's like a devil's bargain.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: Scared a death of the Government's not scared it of me.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: She scared to have of the government.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: What do you one more thing? Do you think this is?
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: So when I spoke to Rvis, and I've been doing
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: this for ten years, Yeah, but I want to ask
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: you if you think that there is not necessarily what
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: specifically happened to your son, but the entire framework that
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: allowed for this to happen, you know, the way that
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: we investigate these crimes, the way that we convict on
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: these crimes, the standard of evidence that we use, the
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: presumptions that we make. Do you think that there's a
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: political aspect to this?
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Absolutely military there. It's definitely political. Okay, I'm going to
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: say civilians can get it wrong too, But here's the differences.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: When you're judged by the military, and I don't think
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: they should be in charge of any sexual assault cases.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: If it happened stateside, okay, then whatever jurisdiction should handle it.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: That's there because in the military, your jury is not
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: a jury of your peers. In civilian life, you don't
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: know anybody on the jury and they don't know you.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: In the military, your jury's made up of your superiors.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: So think about you work for a big company like
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: the Milan in the United States Air Force, and you
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: are now a problem of employee. The CEOs are the
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: ones making the decision on whether you're going to be
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: convicted or not. That's what it is. They're all higher
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: in rank than you are. They don't. They didn't. They
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: had only five or maybe six people on my son's case.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: Now that's up to twelve. They've changed a lot of things,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: but there's still that one drink rule is ridiculous. Civilian
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: authorities will look at these situations and realize that there's
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: a reasonable lie. The military doesn't care. Okay, if you're
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: a wife, and you want divorcing your husband and you
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: want to soul custody of the kids. All you have
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: to say is my husband sexually assaulted me. He's going away,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: the government's going to pay you, and you've got custody. Okay,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: there's something wrong with that. You've got to fall any conviction.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: You're going to be put out of the service. If
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: you lie. They might keep you because they don't want
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: the stink, or they might throw you out and pay you.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: That's kind of a win win for her, isn't it.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: You know, you devote ten years of your life to
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: the military, deploy six times, get your degrees with honors,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: are five, truly among the best at every evaluation. You
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: can be sacrificed like you or nothing like you're the
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: lowest of the law. To the people out there who
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: are thinking about joining the military, if your female, it's
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: probably okay. If your male, you won't be believed no
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: matter what. They won't care about the evidence. They won't
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: care if they use you as a number to please Congress. Yeah, Congressman,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Congress needs to fix it.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: Congress made this law.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: They made the problem. Senator Gilbrandt and a couple other
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: women were so hard on the military. They could hold
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: up their money, they could hold up their promotions, and
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: they did. They held up to promotions in the Air
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: Force that spring. If you don't want your promotion held up,
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: you better make everybody guilty. You at least pursue. If
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: the cases came in before and there wasn't a good
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: enough evidence, the commanders were saying, we're not going forward.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: That After Congress's pressure on them, they went through forward
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: with anything, no matter what, and they were old to
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: get convictions and they did. They just sacrificed people's lives
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: to do it. They just joyed American families to do it.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: Our family has really missed him. My father's ninety one
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: and he just did a thing on TikTok. He wants
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: him home before he's dead. It's been very painful. He
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: missed his sister's wedding, he hasn't met his brother in law,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: he hasn't met his little baby niece. It's just been
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: extremely painful for our family. And I can't believe that
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: this happened to us. Yeah, I really don't want it
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: to happen to anybody else.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, no, I mean either, And I hope that
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: you know, we like this live stream that we're doing.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: It's going to stay up and we're going to make
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: shorts out of it and put those out on our
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: TikTok and stuff and see if people see it. Hopefully, Yeah,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: we'll raise some awareness. The only thing we can do
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: is get people to know that this kind of stuff
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: is going on. Yeah, it's the second time that Kirsten
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Gillibrand comes up. That's really interesting. Okay, So I guess,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: like I got two more messages that I got while
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: you were talking. Albert Nata Retro gave us another ten
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: dollars Canadian Thank you, Albert and says, to Holly's point,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: my grandfather got into a scrap with a general son
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: during World War two and suddenly he was on a
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: boat to Normandy for a little thing called D Day.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: Not the same but similar. Thank you for that. Yeah.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: I guess if you upset people, you could end up
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: in a situation like that. But it's also could be
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: an opportunity. And then ZARANX gave us two dollars and
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: says Kirsten Gillibrand or Gillibrand comes up again. Yeah, I
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: think there's a pattern here, and I do think it's political.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's you know, there was a when I
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: was talking to Arvis he said something that I knew
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: was true, but I wanted to hear him to say it.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: He said that the military or these figures like Kirsten
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: Gillibrand and these kind of activist judges and activist congress people,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: they they basically say, Okay, we know that there is
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: a problem with sexual assault in you know, organization X,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: which could be military, could be collegists. Now we just
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: need to get the convictions and the cases to match
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: the numbers that we are told for sure exist. And
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: it's possible that these are also tools that you can
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: use to destroy people that you find you know they're
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: doing too well, or they could be a problem or whatever.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: You just say, oh, well, this guy's he's a hit
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: with the ladies. Let's go get some ladies and see
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: how many of them we can get to step forward
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: and point the finger and make an allegation. And you know,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: it's monstrous. And you know, there's another thing that I
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: think people may not quite get. False allegations can be
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: extremely traumatizing if you are innocent, if you know that
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: you didn't do it, and someone's telling you that you
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: hurt someone. It can be very traumatizing. And I think
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: that we you know, we we over we don't really
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: look at it because it's not like physical harm, and
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of times it's happening to men, and we
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: just have this idea that men can just take it.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: But like, I think that it can be really harmful.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if you've talked to your son
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: about how he feels about these allegations, but yeah, I mean.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: I would be dead now. He's extremely strong, but he
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: said he's angry every day because he knows he doesn't
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: belong there. He has taken treatment for PTSD while he's
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: been there, and it did help quite a bit. But
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: no one wants to talk when he's in the room
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: because he was an OSA agent. So even at taking
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: treatment will be difficult because none of the other inmates
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: want to talk when he's there about their crimes. Does
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: that make sense They didn't want to talk. Yeah, So yeah,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: letting him home and letting me higher treatment is better
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: for everybody, That's what I say, better for everybody. He uh,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: he's been writing books, he plays sports there, he tries
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: to help the other guys with their problems. A lot
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: of them come to him. He's been assaulted one time
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: because he was an OSI agent, ended up in this shoe,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: knocked unconscious, didn't even see it coming because he was
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: an OSI agent. And but only once. He's only been
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: to the shoe once because both parties went. You know.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: Well, the other thing too is that men who have
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: been accused of rape are usually despised by other prisoners,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: like other inmates, because they see that as such a
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: like monstrous thing. Right, So if they believe that the
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: you know, the thing that he's accused is true, then
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: it puts him in a worse position, especially because it
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: you know, it seems to me that it isn't true.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: But the guys, you know, the inmates don't know that.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: They just think, oh, this guy went in jail because
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: he did these things. He's a he's a terrible human being.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: So I mean that's another, you know, another factor to
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: consider is that, like, if you're falsely accused and you're
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: in jail, you're in a lot of trouble. You got
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: to look over your shoulder.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: You're the only person that gets thirty years. That's exactly right.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: The presumption is now really horrible.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: Exactly thirty years too. They're like, this guy is a monster.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: Now. The most hated people there are the child molesters. Okay,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: there are a few sexual assaults. There are a lot
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: of war guys that are committed war crimes. They say
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: there is a hierarchy. That absolutely. But this book has
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: gone around the prison and he says all the time
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: when somebody reads it, that come up and they say, oh, man,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: I'm really sorry you don't belong here, you.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: Know, so well, yeah, it's a good thing the book exists.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm sorry you don't belong here.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. All right, well, Holly that it's been
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: a really good conversation. I don't know if there's any
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: like any last words you wanted to say before I
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: end the show, but.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: Sign the petition hire congressman and say how wrong this is.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: Guard your sons, grandsons, nephews from joining the military. I
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: guess that's all I have to say.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you for telling us your story,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: and thank you guys for joining us on the show.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be asking you to please check out
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: the links in the description to the book, which is
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: I'm going to put it back on the screen here
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: the Invisible Casualty. I have the Amazon, but you can
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: get it on Barnes and Noble and other places as well,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: so please check it out. And again, we are doing
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: our We're trying to raise funds for a meetup in Calgary.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: We haven't met up in like five years, and so
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: it'd be nice to see each other. Just after COVID
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: and everything. We just couldn't get out, but looks like
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: we're going to try this year. So please go to
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: feedabatchel dot com forward slash events to support us. There.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: I got one more super chat that just came through,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: so I want to go ahead and read it. Zarex
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: gave us ten dollars and says it's not military, but
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's correct to bring up Scott F. Spinoza
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: in this case. He was falsely accused by a woman
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: he was helping and his mom took her own life
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: while he was in prison for nineteen months. All right,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: well thank you for that, zaraenxx. Yeah, very dark story.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: It's it's really not good stuff and it really sucks
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: that people are using this for some kind of political advantage.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you so much for coming on the
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: show Holly. Thank you guys for joining us. If you
• 1:20:57
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• 1:21:02
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• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: discussed on the show today, and please please please share
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• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: for coming on today's episode of the Fireside Chat, and
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: we'll talk to you all in the next video. Have
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: a good night.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: Men's are machines, dude, Okay, they are literal machines.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: They are talking point machines.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: They are impossible to fucking deal with, especially if you have,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: like especially if you have like a couple of dudes
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: who have good memory. On top of that, too, holy shit,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: you're fucked