Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Modern Creationism | Donna Howell

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Modern Creationism | Donna Howell · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Speaker 2: I'm Gary Steerman along with Donna Howell. We're going to
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Speaker 2: be talking today about her book. It's called Before Genesis. Donna,
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Speaker 2: It's going to be a great talk because there's a
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Speaker 2: lot in this.
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Speaker 1: Book, right, well, yes, there is a ton. The book
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Speaker 1: actually does cover a lot of topics everywhere from the
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Speaker 1: theology and the science that is seemingly at odds, although
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Speaker 1: it's not actually at odds about what's being described in
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Speaker 1: the very beginning of time, around the time of the
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Speaker 1: great cosmological origin of the universe, and what happened before
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Speaker 1: Genesis was even written, what happened before that?
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Speaker 2: And that seems appropriate because we're getting all kinds of
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Speaker 2: conversation about UFOs and UAPs and people visiting here from
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Speaker 2: other galaxies and sci fi and movies, and it's sort
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Speaker 2: of been embedded in the human psyche these days that
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Speaker 2: we're being visited by other people from other times and
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Speaker 2: other places, and we're coming from a Biblical perspective, and
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Speaker 2: what does the Bible say? And a lot of people say,
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Speaker 2: we'll go out of their way to say, you know,
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Speaker 2: the Bible doesn't cover the ancient, ancient, ancient past, like
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Speaker 2: millions of years ago. The Bible goes back a few
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Speaker 2: thousand years and that's the beginning point. But really I
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Speaker 2: believe the Bible has a lot to say about the
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Speaker 2: whole sci fi mode, modality of explaining the human psyche.
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Speaker 2: In other words, so to we go see those sci
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Speaker 2: fi movies, we read the sci fi books to understand
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Speaker 2: like where man came from and where he's going. Well,
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Speaker 2: we've got the Bible, and the Bible is our source,
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Speaker 2: it's our expertise. If we have any at all, it
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Speaker 2: comes from there. And yet a lot of people say, well,
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Speaker 2: the Bible really doesn't talk about those long ago and
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Speaker 2: far away things that science fiction likes to talk about. Well,
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Speaker 2: I would beg to differ from that night in your
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Speaker 2: book before Genesis covers that, I.
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Speaker 1: Think rather well, yeah, I appreciate that. Actually, So when
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Speaker 1: you look at when you look at where were we
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Speaker 1: what were we doing before there was Adam? You know,
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Speaker 1: there's so many different communities that would answer that question differently.
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Speaker 1: There's a secular scientific community that say we would that
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Speaker 1: would say we were still evolving from primordial soup to
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Speaker 1: monkeys too, and so on and so forth. And then
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Speaker 1: there is the Christians. They are largely going to come
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Speaker 1: from the Young Earth creationist perspective, and that is that
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Speaker 1: is different from the Old Earth creationist perspective. The Young
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Speaker 1: Earth typically, you know, it sees the Earth in the
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Speaker 1: ballpark of six to ten thousand years old, and it
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Speaker 1: says that prior to that there was nothing, nothing but
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Speaker 1: what God would have ordained there to be that we
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Speaker 1: don't know about because the Bible doesn't say anything about it,
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Speaker 1: or that's the running narrative. Then there's the Old Earth
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Speaker 1: creationist voice that says, no, you know, not all science
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Speaker 1: is wrong. Obviously, not all science is right either, because,
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Speaker 1: to paraphrase something that Werner Heisenberg always said, was that
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Speaker 1: we are not when we look at nature, we are
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Speaker 1: not observing nature as it really is. We are observing
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Speaker 1: nature through the lens in which we can, in which
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Speaker 1: we are capable of even observing it. So everything, our
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Speaker 1: method of questioning nature is the lens through which we
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Speaker 1: are seeing nature, not nature itself. So it's not that
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Speaker 1: what we're seeing is actually there, it's that what we're
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Speaker 1: seeing is it's just entirely what can we take this
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Speaker 1: information to mean in our limited finite human capabilities. What
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Speaker 1: do we make of it? Well, we only you know,
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Speaker 1: we've got this scientific theory over there, this theory of time,
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Speaker 1: or the space continuum, de whatever. Everything that we observe
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Speaker 1: has to go through the lens of everything we've established
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Speaker 1: as a scientific theory or hypothesis before. And that's a
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Speaker 1: limited thing. God, in his infinite wisdom, is so far
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Speaker 1: beyond that. I mean, there's nothing that limits God to our.
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Speaker 2: Well, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Well,
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Speaker 2: what does that say? He created the heavens the earth
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Speaker 2: at the atomic level, or maybe the subatomic level, he
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Speaker 2: created particulate matter and crafted it in such a way
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Speaker 2: that a certain result would happen. And we don't have
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Speaker 2: a clue when it comes to that level of creation,
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Speaker 2: although we fool ourselves a lot of times and say,
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Speaker 2: I think I understand what God did. And our scientists
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Speaker 2: are now beginning with their electron microscopes and so forth
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Speaker 2: to see at the molecular level, and so they're figuring
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Speaker 2: it all out and how it came together, and they'll
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Speaker 2: be able to duplicate it. And my response is uh
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Speaker 2: uh oh, no, right, not at all. And I think
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Speaker 2: that's your response too, right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, and so when you take the topic of
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Speaker 1: Young Earth versus Old Earth, and you you say what
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Speaker 1: happened in the very beginning, that answer changes dramatically depending
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Speaker 1: on the community that you're listening to. Science has its answer,
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Speaker 1: and the Young Earth's do, and the Old Earth there's
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Speaker 1: creationists do. What Tom and I wanted to do with
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Speaker 1: this conversation was to say that those groups don't actually
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Speaker 1: disagree or headbutt as much as you think they do.
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Speaker 1: When you get down to the very very bottom of
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Speaker 1: what each of them are saying. There's bits and pieces
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Speaker 1: of truth in all of them, which makes which actually
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Speaker 1: brings us to this re When you look at the
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Speaker 1: very beginning and you kind of repaint the picture, you
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Speaker 1: see a new chronology that kind of develops in the beginning,
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Speaker 1: how long ago, I don't know, billions of years, millions
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Speaker 1: of years ago, however long you know, most observational science demands,
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Speaker 1: or whatever you have, the very beginning of Earth. And
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Speaker 1: then this enemy of God known as Lucifer or Satan,
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Speaker 1: whatever name you want to put on him, the one
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Speaker 1: who said I will exalt myself above the most high.
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Speaker 1: This enemy of God came in took what God had created,
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Speaker 1: formed his own revolution, with his own revolutionary leadership upon
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Speaker 1: that place, to turn it into something that it wasn't.
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Speaker 1: He warped the DNA of what God had created. We
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Speaker 1: see this in Genesis sixty four, but that might not
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Speaker 1: have been the first time it happened. So back up
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Speaker 1: to before the time of Adam, he warped what God
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Speaker 1: had created. And is it possible that that's where things
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Speaker 1: like dinosaurs or the bipedal human looking type creations that
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Speaker 1: we have from the fossil eras that most people would
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Speaker 1: consider the missing link of the Darwinian evolutionary timeline of humanity.
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Speaker 2: Well, if you just believe the Bible. My Bible's open
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Speaker 2: to Isaiah at fourteen, which is a classic statement, how
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Speaker 2: art that fallen from heaven? O Lucifer, son of the
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Speaker 2: Morning describes an action Lucifer basically the sun of light
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Speaker 2: or the one of light Lucifer And in other words,
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Speaker 2: he was a ridge nature of something great, and he
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Speaker 2: was obviously worshiped, and he obviously occupied the heavens or
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Speaker 2: heaven because he fell from there. And then it says
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Speaker 2: his idea when he fell was I will exalt my
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Speaker 2: throne above the stars of God. So right away Satan
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Speaker 2: had a problem, and it was the ultimate pride problem.
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Speaker 2: And I'm going somewhere with this because what this says
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Speaker 2: is it validates what you were saying just a moment ago.
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Speaker 2: He said, I'm going to ascend above the heights and
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Speaker 2: I'm going to be like the most high. And then
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Speaker 2: there's that famous stroke of doom. Yet I shall be
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Speaker 2: brought down to hell the sides of the pit, in
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Speaker 2: other words, absolute destruction because of what you did. And
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Speaker 2: when you read this, you have to say, say, okay,
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Speaker 2: where does this fit back into Genesis Genesis one, one, one, two,
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Speaker 2: one three, Because it starts in the beginning God created
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Speaker 2: the heavens of the earth, and this Isaiah fourteen quote
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Speaker 2: must have happened sometime after that, and probably before Adam
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Speaker 2: and Eve were created, because when Lucifer came into the garden,
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Speaker 2: he was already there and he's already fallen. So how
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Speaker 2: do we put this all together? Right? That's the question,
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Speaker 2: and that's what your book is about. Basically.
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Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, to reconstruct and again and I go
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Speaker 1: back to uh, I go back to something I was
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Speaker 1: starting to say earlier. This is how we end up
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Speaker 1: finding that the Old Earthers and the Young Earthers actually
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Speaker 1: have more in common than they thought. Because you start
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Speaker 1: within the very beginning, and then God created the Earth.
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Speaker 1: Satan fell and took took onions with him who also
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Speaker 1: fell with him, and they corrupted what was the original Earth.
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Speaker 1: And then it's almost like you see this moment where
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Speaker 1: God intervenes, He puts the smack down on everything that's
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Speaker 1: going on. In fact, science even acknowledges the snowball Earth theory.
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Speaker 1: It's this theory that in the very at some ancient period,
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Speaker 1: our earth was covered in water and the water was frozen. Well,
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Speaker 1: it specifically refers to things in the Book of Job.
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Speaker 1: It specifically refers to a very ancient time when the
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Speaker 1: Earth was frozen. And so you have these verses that
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Speaker 1: actually also do describe this. So what happened next? What
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Speaker 1: happened next? You get into this moment where God brings
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Speaker 1: the judgment down upon the Earth and then he recreates it.
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Speaker 1: How long ago does he recreate it? How long ago
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Speaker 1: does he bring it back to its original glory? If
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Speaker 1: the Young Earth crowd sees that as approximately six to
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Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago, I have no problem admitting that
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Speaker 1: it might have been six to ten thousand years ago,
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Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that it was the original Earth.
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Speaker 1: So we have more in common than we think.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And interestingly, as you talk, I go back to
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Speaker 2: an idea that popped into my head at least once
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Speaker 2: a day, and that is that when you read the Bible,
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Speaker 2: it's all about a problem. Something happened that's problematic. And
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Speaker 2: then as you turn page after page after page, you
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Speaker 2: go all the way to the end of the Bible
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Speaker 2: where it says and I saw new heavens and a
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Speaker 2: new Earth for the first heavens and Earth had passed away.
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Speaker 2: The whole book is devoted to a a problem having happened,
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Speaker 2: and b there's a solution to the problem. God created
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Speaker 2: Adam and Eve and the Redeemer came out of that bloodline,
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Speaker 2: and see there's going to be a new creation. And
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Speaker 2: so that whole picture, giant picture that comes popping into
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Speaker 2: focus when you talk about the things you're talking about
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Speaker 2: right now.
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Speaker 1: That's something that cracks me up is since you know,
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Speaker 1: I've been doing this research for far longer than the
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Speaker 1: book's been out of course, and I've had conversations with
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Speaker 1: some conservative Christians that have said, that's insane to imagine
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Speaker 1: that earth was here in the very beginning and then
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Speaker 1: it fell under a Luciferian order and then God restored
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Speaker 1: it at the time of Adam. That's just insane. The
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Speaker 1: Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Well, yeah, there are a
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Speaker 1: number of versus the do point to that being the
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Speaker 1: truth first of all. But why is it insane? Do
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Speaker 1: you realize it? You know, fellow believing Christians, that in
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Speaker 1: the Book of Revelation it happens again. God restores the
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Speaker 1: new Earth in the Book of Revelation. So we already
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Speaker 1: know that it's a matter of God's nature to rescue
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Speaker 1: Earth and create the earth anew when something befalls it.
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Speaker 1: Even it says in the Psalms that He reached store
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Speaker 1: at the face of the earth, you know what I mean.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the restoration is the big word. I'm turning
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Speaker 2: to Ezekiel over here twenty eight fifteen, referring to Lucifer
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Speaker 2: and it says that was perfect in thy ways. I'm
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Speaker 2: reading the Jackalbean here, the King James, that was perfect
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Speaker 2: in thy ways from the day that that was created
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Speaker 2: till iniquity was found in the In other words, Satan
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Speaker 2: was flawed. And we could go on and on about
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Speaker 2: how he fell and why he fell, but he fell
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Speaker 2: for sure. He was flawed. He was not God. He
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Speaker 2: would like to be God. He would like to take
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Speaker 2: God's place if possible, as would every revolutionary. I mean,
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Speaker 2: stop and think about Karl Marx, and then then the
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Speaker 2: people who came after that, Lenin and Stalin, Adolf Hitler
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Speaker 2: and Mauzitoung and all of these people kind of are
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Speaker 2: little models of Satan. They're very, very flawed people, extremely flawed,
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Speaker 2: but they think they're perfect. That is a pattern that
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Speaker 2: was that's set up in ages past in the Bible.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's the it's the it's the same age
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Speaker 1: old pattern. The Luciferian order from the very beginning, is
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Speaker 1: repeated throughout history. Humanity tends to want to do very
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Speaker 1: bad things with power, yes, and when you look at
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Speaker 1: what Lucifer or Satan originally did with that power, it
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Speaker 1: involved humans in Genesis sixty four and this this goes
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Speaker 1: back again to the nature of the Luciferian order, this
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Speaker 1: idea that that that Earth is going to be Lucifers
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Speaker 1: and that He's going to do something destructive with it.
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Speaker 1: It's not hard to imagine. First of all, we know
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Speaker 1: that it happened in Genesis sixty four. If you take
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Speaker 1: the interpretational view, the supernatural worldview identifies that what occurred
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Speaker 1: in that moment was that daughters of men, human women
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Speaker 1: had interrelations with fallen angels, and what came of that
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Speaker 1: was a hybrid fallen angel human hybrid offspring. That may
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Speaker 1: not have been the very first time that Satan did that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that offspring is documented in ancient
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Speaker 2: mythology we call it mythology. But the Greco Roman mythology
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Speaker 2: and before that Assyrian Syriac mythology all talks about these
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Speaker 2: these weird people, half god, half human. They're called gods.
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Speaker 2: The Greeks called them, the Romans call them gods. But
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Speaker 2: when you read about these gods, you read about a
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Speaker 2: bunch of really flawed characters. They were all so full
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Speaker 2: of themselves, and they were all angry, and they all
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Speaker 2: got you know, they fought each other, they killed each other,
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Speaker 2: they enslaved humanity. And let's face it, the whole Graeco
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Speaker 2: Roman school of history is based on those gods who
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Speaker 2: were the gods. And you go back to the Bible,
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Speaker 2: it says, you know, the sons of God came in
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Speaker 2: and married the daughters of men, and horrible things ensued
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Speaker 2: after that. And I think that those horrible things come
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Speaker 2: down to us kind of historically noted as the gods,
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Speaker 2: the Greco Roman gods and others.
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Speaker 1: Now, so it's not quite as mythological as we would
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Speaker 1: want to put exactly, and that if you do, and
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Speaker 1: it's not just the Greco Roman pantheon, it's every pantheonic
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Speaker 1: religion since the dawn of time. They all identify something
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Speaker 1: that isn't natural. First of all, a half this, half
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Speaker 1: that god, half God, half bull, half these weird kinds
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Speaker 1: of monstrosities. Well, if you look extra biblically as well,
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Speaker 1: it's not just the Bible and the Genesis four epic
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Speaker 1: and the vert and the supporting theology and versus to
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Speaker 1: that particular time. But it goes back even further than that.
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Speaker 1: There's there's I know, the Book of Jubileese talks about it.
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Speaker 1: Eusebius the historian talks about it. Some of the Cave
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Speaker 1: four of the Dead Sea scrolls. Yes, the Book of.
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Speaker 2: Enock, and he got a bunch of renegade angels that
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Speaker 2: come down on Mount Hermon.
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Speaker 1: But they but they frequently take a view of these
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Speaker 1: particular these particular ones I just mentioned. They take a
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Speaker 1: view of something that was happening on the earth, and
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Speaker 1: beasts were eating each other, and they were all half this,
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Speaker 1: half that, and it was just a monstrous time they're
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Speaker 1: looking at. The particular time they are looking at is
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Speaker 1: the without form and void era of Earth's history. So
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Speaker 1: Genesis one, Genesis, I mean Genesis one one and Genesis
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Speaker 1: one two, that moment that's described in English KJV language
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Speaker 1: as without form and void. Those words in the original Hebrew.
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Speaker 1: Without going too deep, So those words in the original Hebrew,
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Speaker 1: without going to deep into the grammar on all of them,
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Speaker 1: we can suffice it to say those words tohu babo
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Speaker 1: who is what they are and Hebrew are coordinate with judgment.
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Speaker 1: They cannot mean simply that God was in the mid
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Speaker 1: state of creating Earth and He's eventually going to turn
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Speaker 1: it into something else. It means in the beginning the
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Speaker 1: earth had become an uninhabitable wasteland of chaos.
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Speaker 2: Because of the fall of Satan, and he fell because
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Speaker 2: of pride, and by the way, when the Holy Spirit
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Speaker 2: of God refers to him. It uses this again back
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Speaker 2: to a Sekiel twenty eight to fifteen. You were perfect
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Speaker 2: in your ways from the day that you were created.
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Speaker 2: Now that's a mouthful, because what do you think of
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Speaker 2: when you think of Satan? You certainly do not think
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Speaker 2: of perfection. You think of the most evil creature in
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Speaker 2: the universe and worshiped as the dragon in a lot
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Speaker 2: of countries to this very day. You know, the Chinese
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Speaker 2: New Year, they worshiped the dragon. But the dragon they
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Speaker 2: worship is not someone who is perfect in his ways.
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Speaker 2: He's a fire breathing monster, and you don't want to
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Speaker 2: get in his way. And so he fell, meaning he
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Speaker 2: was not like God. That is to say, he say.
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Speaker 2: I believe Satan thought of himself kind of as a
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Speaker 2: creator at the level of God. Hey I'm good enough,
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Speaker 2: I can probably take over and do what God is
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Speaker 2: doing and do a better job. And he was totally
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Speaker 2: totally duping himself. And the narrative of the Bible is
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Speaker 2: built around that idea. It happened to Satan, It's happened
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Speaker 2: to humanity over and over again, and it can happen
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Speaker 2: to you because you are a creature born in sin,
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Speaker 2: and there's no way out for you except one way,
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Speaker 2: and that is if you follow the Savior of the
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Speaker 2: Lord Jesus Christ, whom I have provided for you. I
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Speaker 2: gave my only begotten son, and he was a solution
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Speaker 2: to this entire problem we're talking about here. This book
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Speaker 2: that you've written before, Genesis states the problem very well,
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Speaker 2: I might.
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Speaker 1: Add, thank you very much, and.
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Speaker 2: Extremely well documented. And I'm a fan of a well
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Speaker 2: documented book, by the way. But what I'm trying to say,
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Speaker 2: putting this whole big picture together, is everybody would like
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Speaker 2: to think of themselves as perfect and satan most of all, Hey,
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Speaker 2: I can be like the most high. In fact, I
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Speaker 2: can be a better most high than the most high.
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Speaker 2: And everything crashed and burned after that, and there we're
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Speaker 2: still in the process of the clean up as we speak.
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Speaker 1: Well in many areas of the Earth's right now, places
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Speaker 1: that you can go and visit right now, archaeological dig
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Speaker 1: sites all across the Earth that are radiocarbon dated to
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Speaker 1: be anywhere between you know, eight thousand to fifteen thousand
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Speaker 1: years old, and some of them older than that. We're
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Speaker 1: talking about.
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Speaker 2: Built by with the hands of other men, create creatures
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Speaker 2: we're not sure just exactly who they were.
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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, no we don't. But there's hidden intrinsically in
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Speaker 1: these sites is something we can't describe. First of all,
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Speaker 1: some of the stones that were moved were moved from
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Speaker 1: a quarry ten miles away, over land and water, and
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Speaker 1: they are anywhere. Like in Bailback, we've got one that
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Speaker 1: is three point three million pounds un estimated three point
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Speaker 1: three million pounds and.
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Speaker 2: There are no wheels big enough there were.
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Speaker 1: Okay, we're talking pre pottery Neolithic age here. Yeah, a
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Speaker 1: human is not even smart enough to construct a clay pot,
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Speaker 1: but they can move three point three million pound stone
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Speaker 1: from a quarry several miles away. That we will see
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Speaker 1: some of these things going on in go Beckley Tepe
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Speaker 1: and Carrahan Tepe as well, and a lot of these
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Speaker 1: old sites. Here's the thing, over and over and over again.
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Speaker 1: We have serpentine or dragonian type iconography built into these sites,
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Speaker 1: serpent worship everywhere.
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Speaker 2: There's a big one juaman with a wall built of
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Speaker 2: the stones such as you're describing, and each of those
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Speaker 2: stones weighs what one hundred tons, and how you can't
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Speaker 2: carry those even with today's equipment and furthermore, the urine
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Speaker 2: or figure of a serpent is built into that stone set.
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Speaker 2: And how did that happen?
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Speaker 1: And how did it happen in a pre pottery time?
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Speaker 1: How did it happen by regular humans? What in a
23:14
Speaker 1: pullycart civilization? So you know, even science cannot explain. Even
23:19
Speaker 1: our secular sciences, who often come forward with an explanation
23:25
Speaker 1: or at least a very believable theory on everything, cannot
23:27
Speaker 1: explain sites like bail Beck and go Beckley Tuppy. But
23:30
Speaker 1: you know what they do say about these sites is
23:34
Speaker 1: that it relates to genesis, like theology, stories like the
23:41
Speaker 1: and I put air quotes around the word mythical, but
23:45
Speaker 1: that it relates to these ideas that at one point
23:49
Speaker 1: there was something that was serpentine in nature impregnating women,
23:53
Speaker 1: and these women ran over here and they had strange babies.
23:56
Speaker 1: These stories are being told in stone in Place says
24:00
Speaker 1: that the secular scientists are noting are very very old
24:04
Speaker 1: prior to Adam. They credate Adam's brouth.
24:06
Speaker 2: I have to insert this too. Very few people have
24:09
Speaker 2: read Greek mythology, and I happen to have read it
24:12
Speaker 2: over the years because I'm kind of fascinated by it
24:15
Speaker 2: how it fits into history. But there are a lot
24:17
Speaker 2: of Greek heroes who came down and took women Earth
24:22
Speaker 2: women as wives and had children and began whole cultures
24:28
Speaker 2: out of that union and built great cities. And in
24:33
Speaker 2: other words, Greek mythology echoes what the Bible definitively states
24:38
Speaker 2: that the sons of God came to the daughters of men.
24:41
Speaker 2: And that's where I think where the old Greek gods
24:43
Speaker 2: and goddess goddess's idea comes from. It comes from that
24:49
Speaker 2: very tragic, miserable era in humanity, and it was a
24:56
Speaker 2: long long time ago. Dating it, how can we date
24:59
Speaker 2: it well? And that people are trying to do that
25:02
Speaker 2: right now, they're talking about go Beckley Templey, how do
25:06
Speaker 2: you date that right?
25:08
Speaker 1: Well? I mean there's a there's the radiocarbon dating and
25:12
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of young
25:15
Speaker 1: earthers that do see the Earth as a very very
25:18
Speaker 1: young planet. They kind of want to rail repeatedly against
25:22
Speaker 1: radiocarbon dating as a science and decide whether or not
25:25
Speaker 1: it's relatable. I mean, it's reliable, but whether or not
25:31
Speaker 1: it is, there are still a lot of things going
25:34
Speaker 1: on on this planet, soil layering, rock strata, river sediments,
25:40
Speaker 1: all kinds, and you know whether or not the space
25:44
Speaker 1: is as constant and the speed of light and situations
25:50
Speaker 1: of space are as constant as we want to peg
25:53
Speaker 1: them for being. And that is certainly a longer conversation
25:57
Speaker 1: that could go into twenty five different pig trails. But
25:59
Speaker 1: we even have like the distance from Earth to stars
26:02
Speaker 1: and the red shift that can be measured, those are
26:05
Speaker 1: those are There's too many things going on right now
26:09
Speaker 1: to say, very simply put all the science is wrong
26:13
Speaker 1: and the Earth is very young. Well, either all the
26:17
Speaker 1: scientists are wrong or God is is in his God
26:21
Speaker 1: is a very tricky gods, as you and Tom have
26:23
Speaker 1: had that conversation very many times before. He created the
26:27
Speaker 1: Earth to appear old, but it's in fact very young.
26:31
Speaker 1: That's the tricky God idea. Well, God is not a deceiver.
26:34
Speaker 1: God is not. He doesn't prop himself up to be
26:38
Speaker 1: a liar. So why would he Why would he create
26:41
Speaker 1: an earth that looks very old and is very deceptively young?
26:45
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? There's the question too.
26:47
Speaker 2: Well, on the cover of your book, you've got a
26:50
Speaker 2: quote here from James and Fawcett and Brown Commentary eighteen
26:54
Speaker 2: seventy one, and I got to read this quote. It says,
26:57
Speaker 2: this globe at some undescribed period, having been convulsed and
27:01
Speaker 2: broken up. That's a mouthful, right, There was a dark
27:05
Speaker 2: and watery waste for ages, perhaps till out of this
27:08
Speaker 2: chaotic state the present fabric of the world was made
27:12
Speaker 2: by God to arise, in other words, ruin and recreation.
27:19
Speaker 2: Right now, this is in some places, some quarters, a
27:24
Speaker 2: hot topic, I suppose one could say. For me, it's
27:29
Speaker 2: not a hot topic. As a matter of fact, I'm
27:31
Speaker 2: not going to get all worked up about it. But
27:34
Speaker 2: it does help me to understand creation. Adam and Eve
27:42
Speaker 2: and their child and their children, and what happened to
27:46
Speaker 2: those children, and the bloodline that runs from Adam and
27:51
Speaker 2: Eve all the way through the Old Testament to the
27:54
Speaker 2: little city of Nazareth where Jesus was born, and you
27:57
Speaker 2: can trace the bloodline. That bloodline was the solution to
28:02
Speaker 2: the entire problem, and where the birth of Christ came
28:06
Speaker 2: out of the bloodline that originated, if you will, in
28:09
Speaker 2: the garden of Eden and went all the way to
28:12
Speaker 2: marry in Nazareth in the birth of Jesus. Jesus is born,
28:17
Speaker 2: and he says, I'm the way the truth of the life.
28:19
Speaker 2: And he demonstrated that, and he demonstrated something that had
28:25
Speaker 2: not been seen for a long long time, namely the
28:28
Speaker 2: solution to the problem which we're talking about so correctly.
28:33
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful story for me.
28:36
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that I think has
28:38
Speaker 1: always been my goal. Even when engaging in conversations like
28:42
Speaker 1: this that uppear at the onset to be you know,
28:44
Speaker 1: perhaps unimportant or fringe topic, a theological non essential, like
28:51
Speaker 1: how old is the earth and what happened before Genesis
28:53
Speaker 1: and all of these kinds of things, my goal still
28:57
Speaker 1: comes back to evangelism. My goal is still bring Jesus
29:01
Speaker 1: to the forefront. And a person may not typically look
29:04
Speaker 1: at this particular conversation as something that a complic can come.
29:09
Speaker 1: A person may not typically look at this kind of
29:11
Speaker 1: a conversation and think that this would accomplish that, But
29:14
Speaker 1: essentially it's built right into it because if a person
29:18
Speaker 1: was to approach the Bible. Can I give you an
29:21
Speaker 1: example in Galileo's day, Oh yes, okay, in Galileo's day,
29:26
Speaker 1: there was the idea was straight out of the Psalms
29:30
Speaker 1: that it says in the Book of Psalms that God
29:33
Speaker 1: hath formed the Earth, he established it, and that it
29:36
Speaker 1: cannot be moved. Okay, that's a provisionary statement, but it
29:41
Speaker 1: was taken literally at the time, meaning Earth does not move.
29:45
Speaker 1: So Earth is at the center of the universe, and
29:47
Speaker 1: all of the planets and the Sun rotate around it.
29:50
Speaker 1: That is a model called the geocentric model. It's false,
29:54
Speaker 1: it's demonstrably false. We know this, but at the time
29:57
Speaker 1: of Galileo he got to look in through his te
30:00
Speaker 1: telescopes and putting two and two together and saying, no,
30:02
Speaker 1: since the time of Copernicus, we have known that at
30:07
Speaker 1: the center of the Earth or the universe, of the
30:09
Speaker 1: galaxy is the Sun, and everything rotates around it.
30:12
Speaker 2: And I might add quickly here that it did not
30:15
Speaker 2: go well for Galileo after he made that statement, no,
30:19
Speaker 2: what he saw through his telescope said, my friends, I
30:22
Speaker 2: have seen such and such through my telescope, which demonstrates
30:26
Speaker 2: the following. And what happened to Galileo. He was thrown
30:30
Speaker 2: into the slammer.
30:32
Speaker 1: Yeah house arrest for the rest of his life. He
30:34
Speaker 1: had to recant all of his work. He was forced
30:37
Speaker 1: to recant, to essentially say, never mind, I was wrong
30:41
Speaker 1: to pay no attention to all of the things I've
30:43
Speaker 1: said before. It didn't go well for him. But here's
30:45
Speaker 1: what happened to the lost in those days. They approached
30:49
Speaker 1: the Church and they said, my eyes tell me that
30:54
Speaker 1: the way you are interpreting this psalm that says that
30:57
Speaker 1: the Earth cannot be moved is not And so since
31:02
Speaker 1: that's what the only way that I can accept the
31:04
Speaker 1: Bible is to accept geocentrism, which is not even true.
31:08
Speaker 1: If that's the only way I can accept the Bible,
31:11
Speaker 1: then I'm sorry, but I think the Bible is bananas.
31:13
Speaker 1: I cannot accept the Bible. The Bible is no longer
31:16
Speaker 1: relevant in this scientific age. This is hundreds and hundreds
31:18
Speaker 1: of years ago and Galileo. For three hundred years following
31:24
Speaker 1: the time of Galileo, the Church stuck to their one
31:27
Speaker 1: prized pet theological understanding that the Earth is at the
31:31
Speaker 1: center of the universe. Now Here we are it's twenty
31:34
Speaker 1: twenty three, moving into twenty twenty four. Soon we know
31:37
Speaker 1: the heliocentric model is true, which is the exact opposite
31:41
Speaker 1: of that. It's that the sun is at the center
31:42
Speaker 1: and the planet's rotating around it. We have no problem
31:46
Speaker 1: looking at that verse in Psalms Now and saying, okay,
31:49
Speaker 1: that verse is a provisionary statement. The Earth will not
31:53
Speaker 1: be moved because God is protecting it. It doesn't mean a
31:55
Speaker 1: literal science. It's not making a scientific statement.
31:58
Speaker 2: Okay.
31:59
Speaker 1: If we could do the same thing with the issue
32:02
Speaker 1: of young Earth old Earth before Genesis, you know, if
32:07
Speaker 1: we can look at the Bible and say, this is
32:09
Speaker 1: what secular scientists are saying. It's not always true, but
32:12
Speaker 1: it's not always wrong, and this is what young Earth
32:15
Speaker 1: is seeing. They have evidence that something happened six to
32:18
Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago. Yeah, that's probably true, doue. And
32:21
Speaker 1: then we have a very old old planet. If we
32:25
Speaker 1: can make Genesis relevant to the secular world and stop
32:30
Speaker 1: insisting that they that if that the only way that
32:33
Speaker 1: they can believe in God is if they believe that
32:35
Speaker 1: the Earth is only six to ten thousand years old,
32:37
Speaker 1: then Genesis gets relevant. And when Genesis gets relevant, Genesis
32:41
Speaker 1: three point fifteen gets relevant. That's the promissory note from
32:45
Speaker 1: God to man. There is coming a messiah. His name
32:48
Speaker 1: is Jesus. This is what he's going to do. These
32:50
Speaker 1: are the prophecies that he's going to fulfill. Everything gets
32:55
Speaker 1: really close and personal to the Christ story. If Genesis
32:59
Speaker 1: can be relevant in a scientific age.
33:01
Speaker 2: And I might add, and that was a very good summation,
33:05
Speaker 2: but I would like to add that from Galileo to
33:08
Speaker 2: the present, we have perfected means of observation, and we
33:14
Speaker 2: have huge telescopes. We go into space, we orbit the moon,
33:19
Speaker 2: We send little rovers to Mars that take samples, and
33:25
Speaker 2: every time they do they discover not perfection, they discover chaos.
33:34
Speaker 2: They discover that there have been explosions, there have been
33:38
Speaker 2: floods and then followed by droughts, and the planets of
33:42
Speaker 2: cracked wide open, and the Moon is cratered. And in
33:46
Speaker 2: other words, the whole Solar system bears evidence of a
33:53
Speaker 2: collapse of some sort. But of what sort, Well, read
33:58
Speaker 2: your Bible. I believe all tracks back to that old
34:04
Speaker 2: serpent who said, I'll be like the most High, I'm
34:08
Speaker 2: going to take the whole thing and make it better.
34:10
Speaker 2: And what did he do? He almost destroyed it, but
34:15
Speaker 2: for God's intervention, and God provided the solution. And that's
34:24
Speaker 2: the Bible. That's the Bible we read.
34:26
Speaker 1: It also makes sense too, why the intervention that He
34:30
Speaker 1: provided through the blood and the sacrifice of the Sun.
34:35
Speaker 1: When you look at that, that's all of a sudden,
34:39
Speaker 1: everything connected to this earth, everything connected to this metaphysical reality,
34:43
Speaker 1: this earth that we live on right now, the salvation
34:46
Speaker 1: that we receive, it's not tied to this body, this life.
34:51
Speaker 1: It's that other one. Yes, it's beyond. And so it's
34:55
Speaker 1: actually really beautiful because you look at all of the
34:58
Speaker 1: sin stained history that marks the planet we're living on now,
35:02
Speaker 1: And isn't it great that well, not only are we
35:05
Speaker 1: getting a new Earth and a new Jerusalem in the end,
35:09
Speaker 1: but that the eternal state, it's not even related to
35:13
Speaker 1: what we've got going on now.
35:16
Speaker 2: Exactly now, what we do have going on now, that's
35:21
Speaker 2: fascinating to me. And if you look at it, and
35:26
Speaker 2: I don't care where you look, in Russia, China, the
35:28
Speaker 2: United States, Europe, wherever you look, men are saying, we
35:34
Speaker 2: have high tech, we have artificial intelligence, we have satellite technology,
35:41
Speaker 2: we have the ability to control climate global warming. By
35:45
Speaker 2: the way, we have the ability to renew this old,
35:51
Speaker 2: worn out globe and make it brand new again, and
35:54
Speaker 2: we'll establish a brand new rule on this globe and
35:57
Speaker 2: it's going to be paradise. And that's what's going on
36:01
Speaker 2: right now. And you know what, that's just a reiteration
36:04
Speaker 2: of what Satan said. You know, I'll make this place
36:07
Speaker 2: a paradise. Well what happened. He did not make it
36:11
Speaker 2: a paradise. He made it a scene of consecutive destructions,
36:17
Speaker 2: one after another, after another after another. And by the way,
36:20
Speaker 2: we're headed for still another one. That's given in the
36:24
Speaker 2: Book of Revelation. So what can I say? Looking way
36:30
Speaker 2: way back gives you a look into the far far future.
36:35
Speaker 2: I love the fact that when you open your Bible
36:38
Speaker 2: up front, it says, in the beginning God created the
36:40
Speaker 2: heavens and the earth, and when you turn to the
36:42
Speaker 2: back of the book, it says, and I saw new
36:45
Speaker 2: heavens and a new earth for the first even earth
36:48
Speaker 2: that passed away. So it is going to get fixed,
36:53
Speaker 2: but it's not going to be the fallen one who
36:55
Speaker 2: fixes it will leave me.
36:57
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, And.
36:59
Speaker 2: That's what we're talking about. And that's what the book
37:01
Speaker 2: is about. Before Genesis, it's something horrible happened. And and this,
37:07
Speaker 2: this book that you've written before Genesis, is a documentary
37:11
Speaker 2: in a way highly highly footnote documentary.
37:17
Speaker 1: Well, we we did. We did end up taking our
37:21
Speaker 1: time to get through that one. And I got to
37:24
Speaker 1: tell you that so far those who have read it
37:26
Speaker 1: are most interested in our conclusion about the dinosaurs. So
37:31
Speaker 1: I will share that very very briefly, that the idea
37:34
Speaker 1: about the dinosaurs, when you have Lucifer, this serpentine satanic
37:40
Speaker 1: early rebel, that he was the representative of possibly the
37:46
Speaker 1: aquatic Now that gets into some gray matter we've got.
37:50
Speaker 1: We've got some scholars that do see Leviathan and Satan
37:53
Speaker 1: as the literary device speaking to the same character. But
37:57
Speaker 1: then we have a lot of scholars who say that
37:59
Speaker 1: they are not the same thing. But when you look
38:01
Speaker 1: at the different areas of creation that are represented, like
38:06
Speaker 1: in Ezekiel and again in Revelation, when you have like
38:09
Speaker 1: these these watchers who are representing different forms of creation.
38:13
Speaker 1: You have one with the face of an eagle that
38:16
Speaker 1: that's the you know, the aviation world. And you have
38:18
Speaker 1: one with the face of a man that represents human
38:21
Speaker 1: humanity or humankind, and then one with the ox, which
38:25
Speaker 1: is more or less the domestic animals that serve humanity.
38:29
Speaker 1: You've got these kind of creation representatives, but you don't
38:33
Speaker 1: have one that is over the reptilian or the aquatic species.
38:37
Speaker 1: So the theory goes, and this is just a tom theory,
38:40
Speaker 1: I understand it. He got a lot of these ideas
38:42
Speaker 1: originally from you back in the day. You you you
38:44
Speaker 1: guys kind of peppered back and forth on this one
38:47
Speaker 1: for a good decade and a half. But the theory
38:50
Speaker 1: being that the fifth Watcher, that he might have been,
38:52
Speaker 1: that Lucifer might have been the original watcher, the creation
38:56
Speaker 1: representative over the reptilian and the serpentine species, and that
39:02
Speaker 1: if you if you throw that in there and look
39:04
Speaker 1: at it for what it is. When he fell, so
39:06
Speaker 1: did the reptiles, so did the serpents. What happened to
39:09
Speaker 1: the dinosaurs?
39:10
Speaker 2: By the way, the dinosaurs were the kings of the earth,
39:13
Speaker 2: if you look at all, they were not just gigantic,
39:18
Speaker 2: but they were they perfected in many many ways. They
39:22
Speaker 2: were armor plated, they had great defenses, they had great
39:27
Speaker 2: methods of operating. They were a cut above in the
39:33
Speaker 2: world of dinasty, which now that world, the reptilian world,
39:37
Speaker 2: has fallen into absolute disgrace. So everything you know falls
39:43
Speaker 2: into place if you look at it in the right way.
39:46
Speaker 1: And you know what, I was also interesting. It could
39:48
Speaker 1: be because you can't believe absolutely every scientific journal article
39:54
Speaker 1: that you read. But one area of research that I
39:58
Speaker 1: had not even considered that was very interesting to me
40:00
Speaker 1: in the research that we had done for this book
40:03
Speaker 1: was that even secular scientists now are acknowledging then, in
40:06
Speaker 1: the very very beginning, dinosaurs were something different. They weren't
40:09
Speaker 1: originally fearfully great, as the etymology of the word dinosaur
40:12
Speaker 1: means that they were originally approximately the size of a
40:15
Speaker 1: Saint Bernard or a German shepherd, and that something happened
40:19
Speaker 1: that changed not only their biology but also their diet.
40:22
Speaker 1: They were possibly science says, possibly herbivores, all that there
40:28
Speaker 1: were no carnivorous dinosaurs in the very very very beginning,
40:32
Speaker 1: So something changed their anatomy. What do we see in
40:36
Speaker 1: Genesis six four We see Luciferian order entering the scene
40:40
Speaker 1: and changing the anatomy of both fallen angel and human
40:44
Speaker 1: together in a hybrid thing that had not existed before.
40:48
Speaker 1: So what are dinosaurs and where did dinosaurs come from?
40:51
Speaker 1: And where did they go? And if we are under
40:54
Speaker 1: the purview of this restoration theory, the idea that God
40:58
Speaker 1: put the kibosh down on the original fall and restored
41:03
Speaker 1: Earth at the time of atom. If we look at
41:05
Speaker 1: it like that, why were dinosaurs not created?
41:08
Speaker 2: Then?
41:09
Speaker 1: Because, again, assuming that the science is real, they went
41:13
Speaker 1: extinct sixty six million years ago. I realized that there's
41:17
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are in the Young Earth
41:19
Speaker 1: crowd that do see evidence that suggests that they got
41:22
Speaker 1: on the arc and they died out because there was
41:25
Speaker 1: a lack of vegetation on the Earth's surface, or there
41:27
Speaker 1: wasn't enough meat to eat when they arrived, or got
41:30
Speaker 1: off a mount Era rat, and there's all of these
41:32
Speaker 1: different theories. But if just for a moment, let's pretend
41:35
Speaker 1: it's true that they died out sixty six million years
41:38
Speaker 1: ago and that all the science that stacks behind that
41:41
Speaker 1: is correct, why were they not recreated? Because it's very
41:46
Speaker 1: possible a dinosaur as we know it in the cartoons,
41:49
Speaker 1: the big t rex and the sharp teeth and the carnivorous, monstrous,
41:54
Speaker 1: savage like behavior is not anything that God would have
41:56
Speaker 1: created to begin with. That's why we don't have them today.
42:00
Speaker 2: And again, it would be hard to imagine man up
42:05
Speaker 2: against the dinosaurs. I mean today's men with cat tanks
42:11
Speaker 2: and cannons could do the job. But a thousand years ago,
42:15
Speaker 2: two thousand years ago, if there were dinosaurs roaming around
42:18
Speaker 2: the land, you wouldn't want to be there, that's right.
42:21
Speaker 2: It would definitely dominate humans. But all of this is
42:25
Speaker 2: fascinating because it illustrates one thing. It illustrates that from
42:30
Speaker 2: the garden of eden Uh where got very carefully prepared humankind,
42:41
Speaker 2: a little little baby came from that and and out
42:46
Speaker 2: of that genetic line came a savior. And humanity, as
42:53
Speaker 2: weak as it is and as prone to various kinds
42:57
Speaker 2: of failures and diversions and whatever as humans are, humans
43:03
Speaker 2: are still going to be the solution to the problem
43:07
Speaker 2: because there was one human born from among them who
43:11
Speaker 2: had the solution. And the solution, of course, is eternal
43:16
Speaker 2: life in Christ Jesus. And when you look at the
43:20
Speaker 2: big picture like that, and you look at all the
43:24
Speaker 2: ruin of the past and one little baby and one
43:29
Speaker 2: one line genetic line that came up to Christ as
43:33
Speaker 2: the solution of the problem, the wisdom of God just
43:37
Speaker 2: comes to its fullness. It's just amazing how He's chosen
43:42
Speaker 2: to solve the problem.
43:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, Amen.
43:46
Speaker 2: I love it. Well, we've been talking to Donna Howell.
43:51
Speaker 2: And by the way, many of you know Tom Horne
43:55
Speaker 2: of mention the Ministry again the Ministry Crane, Missouri.
44:01
Speaker 1: Yes, we actually they're established. There is our Defender Publishing
44:05
Speaker 1: which is our publishing house and that handles all of
44:08
Speaker 1: the books. And then we have SkyWatch Television which Tom
44:13
Speaker 1: is CEO over both. And SkyWatch Television is how we
44:16
Speaker 1: interact with the public and how we promote our books.
44:18
Speaker 1: And then off to the side, kind of around the corner.
44:22
Speaker 1: A lot of people are aware of it, but not
44:23
Speaker 1: everybody is is Whispering Ponies Ranch, and that is our
44:27
Speaker 1: youth retreat facility where we work with youth that have
44:32
Speaker 1: been taken out of troubled home situations, their foster children,
44:35
Speaker 1: rewards of the state, and they travel to our Ministry
44:39
Speaker 1: at Whispering Ponies Ranch to interact with not only our
44:42
Speaker 1: trained faculty and staff and camp counselors, but also a
44:47
Speaker 1: whole ranch of everything from ponies to a small petting zoo, cows,
44:52
Speaker 1: the whole nine yards of therapy animals that are trained
44:56
Speaker 1: therapy animals, so and.
44:58
Speaker 2: Lot of how Tom Horn's daughter, I'm sure you had
45:02
Speaker 2: many conversations with Tom. And I've had many conversations with
45:05
Speaker 2: Tom over the years, always very exciting because he's got
45:09
Speaker 2: a mind that just never stops. He just keeps going
45:13
Speaker 2: and going and going, and out came the book before Genesis,
45:17
Speaker 2: and it's been really interesting to talk to you. And
45:21
Speaker 2: let's do this again.
45:23
Speaker 1: An extreme pleasure, epic pleasure, an extreme honor, an epic honor.
45:28
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having me.
45:30
Speaker 2: May you're welcome. I'm Gary Steerman of Prophecy Watchers. We'll
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Speaker 2: see you soon.