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Transcript

with Liontrust's Simon Hildrey · Two in Twenty

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two in Twenty.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Twink Field, and today I'm delighted to say I'm talking to Simon Hilltree, who is the CMO of Lion Trust.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I will say from the get-go, when we opened with talking about war studies, I realised that 20 minutes was never going to be long enough.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we are probably stretching that a little bit today, but I think there's so much for everybody in here.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Simon's got such a wealth of knowledge, a really interesting journey into marketing.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I always feel like I come away having learnt a bunch from him.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you do too.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Simon, hi, it's great to see you.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for taking the time today.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe before we jump into some questions, you could just give us a little bit of background on your career and then we'll we'll get into sort of the meat of it.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for inviting me on, Twink.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's always great to talk about marketing.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think we don't really get enough opportunities in our industry actually to talk about marketing.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was quite interesting because obviously doing a bit of prep for the podcast, I kind of thought back, and I've always thought my career is really random.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, going back, there are some common threads and themes, and I'm just gonna go right back to university and try and get through this as quickly as possible.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought it kind of relates to some of the topics I think we'll talk about later.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, my last year at university, I I did a kind of dissertation on Russia and the US.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was really about how Russia was bankrupting itself in the Cold War, and this is back in 1988, 89, and obviously we know what happened next.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the importance of that was it gave me a real kind of passion for studying economics and and coming military.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I then went and did uh MA war studies and followed that by working for a military think tank.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh we'll come back to this, what what war studies has brought me in marketing, which is more than you would think.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think while I was at the think tank, you know, the world had changed, we were in the Cold War, the end of history was published in '92.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what I really took from that job that I really enjoyed was kind of publishing, writing and publishing.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to join Read Business Publishing, which for those who don't know was a very large business-to-business publisher in Sutton.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this actually has shaped quite a lot of what has come since.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: At the time, there were a lot of young, aspiring kind of journalists, a bit like myself, and there was a a group of journalists who were at the end of their career and were like in Sutton to see it out.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that combination um uh worked really well in terms of the older journalists passing down the experience.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, a lot of the people I work with have gone on to have really successful and a couple of very high-profile careers since then.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was on a couple of food and drink magazines and uh I think we had far too much fun.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the fun was curtailed, so we all we all gradually left and I joined FT Business.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And by fortune, the publisher David Turner, who later went to CityWar, had seen the magazines through judging awards, so he was he knew he he liked the two magazines, so I think that helped me get the job.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I became editor of Offshore Financial Review and helped set up FT Mandate, and then I joined CityWar, which was quite young in those days, next to the British Museum, and I stayed there for about just under two years.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, I had a real desire to become a freelancer.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of looked for freedom.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be able to write whatever I wanted, so I became freelance.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, City was great, great chain training, actually.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I became freelance and did that for six years.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was approached by Lion Trust to join as head of comms.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: The conversation kind of was on and off for a year.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: I actually thought about retraining as a criminal psychologist at that time, but the training was too long.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I was looking for something else to do.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I then Lion Chust came back, they said Rob Page was joining as head of marketing.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Could you two work together?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Which we knew each other, so we did.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I joined um Lion Trust in summer of uh 2008, which was in the mix of the financial crisis, and then a few months later, the two main fund managers left.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a bit of a crisis within a few months, which I think again has been a really good learning.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was a really good learning for me, and I I learnt more than I would have learned, I think, a couple of years somewhere else.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Rob then left um later that year, and they offered me the job of head of marketing, um, which initially I turned down and then they persuaded me to take it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I've now been in that role for 17 years and chief marketing officer.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, John Irons joined as chief exec um in 2010, and we've grown the business uh since then.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: What a journey.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for for walking through that.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I knew your journalistic background, so I was already curious about what you feel that sort of armed you with or brought um a sort of different angle on maybe what was quite a sort of contained and traditionally understood function within the business back in 2008 when you came into it.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I remember actually, frankly, you and I having a conversation at that time when we were talking about what that role looks like.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess maybe simplistically I went too well.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we talk a lot about curiosity and making sure there's no fear of asking questions, and so that probably just feels like a very natural way of being for you.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the other things maybe that as a journalist, and maybe to your point, you know, when you're dealing with crisis comms, when you're kind of working through some very difficult period for investors that you've kind of been able to think differently, do something differently to be able to navigate some of those choppy waters.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I remember those conversations.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think it it when I joined, I thought, what does journalism bring you?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I did wonder what skills you you bring as a journalist.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the com it I think thinking back for this, it's both journalism and and the war studies.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're absolutely right.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think curiosity is one of the key skills.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think proactiveness, self-starter.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as a journalist, you've got to be a self-starter, you've got to go out and get stories.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think also I was having lunch with somebody in the industry last week, and he talked about the fact that as a journalist, you're in the market, you're living and breathing the market, and you get a lot of contacts, and I think you understand the audience, you understand the client and the differences between client-based as well as understanding product.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it gives you um you're put your part of the market, which you may not necessarily get if you come from a more conventional route.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think also war studies, I think, gave me, and the think tank gave me um an ability to think strategically quite naturally.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think an understanding that you need to have the right information, weigh things up carefully before taking action.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the final thing is really understanding the outcome, knowing the outcome, and I think probably come back to that later, but I think that's a key uh factor of marketing, understanding what you're trying to achieve all the time.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think by combining the two, I think it's been really beneficial for me in terms of that strategic part, tactics, understanding the client base, understanding publishing and content.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also the contacts I made which have helped, like I I know still know quite a few clients, for example, which which helps.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also as a journalist, as you kind of hinted, you have to talk to anybody.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's quite good when you come into a business that you're used to just chatting to people, you know, you it's kind of part of your job.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and that sort of nose for a good story is part of that, like kind of being able to kind of find it and go to the right places to unearth a story that's going to be engaging, a story that's relevant to your audience.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wondered, Simon, when you reflect on kind of maybe marketing's journey in the last sort of 20 years or so, you know, how do you see, where do you see that it's really advanced and move forward?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I guess perhaps historically it hasn't necessarily been a very commercial arm of the business.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's been very connected to its audiences and been very focused on what are the right stories to tell rather than just the the ones that we have.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just wonder where like there's been a bit more bravery, a bit more experimentation.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: How like how much are we embracing that?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have some views on where we need to get to?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the industry, I think marketing has actually in asset management become more creative.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think there there is more experimentation.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think um even you know, we've seen a proliferation of TV adverts, for example, podcast.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there is more, there has been a bit more of a push into more kind of um I suppose FMCG marketing, if you like.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think there is a bit more attempt at differentiation, which I was going to come back to.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think picking up on your point, I mean obviously content has become more important, and as other people have said on your podcast before, but you know, how you get cut through digital again, um I think the industry is trying to really has really tried to accelerate the digital side of it.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think in terms of skills, um, which I'm not sure if you were if you were leading to, but I know this has been a big topic on your podcast, and picking up on the point of commercialisation.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think obviously it's really, really important that marketing people are commercial, can can talk to the board, can talk to sales, you know, really understand clients and the and the that that part of the business.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you need a blend in marketing in this industry, and I think that's really important, and I think we can't lose sight of having creativity in marketing as well.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you really need a blend of people that understand data, understand clients, understand content, how to make content engaging and differentiated, as you say, but also make brand.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of my topics really is brand.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I really believe that we can have differentiated brands.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I almost feel like if we can't, we might as well kind of pack up and go home.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's fundamental to what we do.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so you need that creative, so I think you need a whole combination.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I may, just on that brand point, I didn't couldn't let you pass by uh without talking brand briefly, because obviously you built a great brand at Lion Trust.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things we know from kind of wider research is that um you know, character and mascots are some of the best ways to really build brand.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, having personality, being able to have some sort of mascot to that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wonder whether I'd love if if you could talk to some intentionality, obviously, to your point around having a strategy, plotting your path, being very focused on what the outcomes need to be, articulating that.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder whether you could just talk a little bit to your intentionality in brand and really making it look uh kind of easy, but obviously it's been quite strategic and maybe you really using those levers of brand building.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just wonder whether you had any kind of comments on that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I think it was Laura M and G that said be authentic to yourself and your company, and I think I agree with that 100%.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've you've got to you've got to try and get the personality across.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean people are right when they say obviously the brand is the company, it's the people, it's all the interactions.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what's so important about marketing and brand is that we can reach we can reach the parts of the market sales can't for a start, and we can reach the mass market, and therefore we can reach people that don't interact with the company on a kind of regular basis.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think in terms of what we've tried to do, so we're trying to get the personality first of the fund managers across.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've we've avoided a kind of corporate tone in many ways with the fund managers.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: We want their personality to get across.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think the I know people play this down, but I really feel like the look and the feel of a brand is really important because it gets across the personality, it gets across what the company stands for.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's all about the messaging and getting that tone and understanding across.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the final bit is the association.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've always taken the association with the important.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: What do you link with?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Who do you partner with as a brand, and what does that say about you?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we've always, you know, we've done sport, but when we've done sport, we've tried to activate community, we've really worked hard in terms of the sport sponsorship.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: We've had a long-standing sponsorship with ZSL and animal conservation, we've done community engagement, and I think it's all of those things.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the lion has been very our tangible product in many ways is the line.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's what and what the does that stand for.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think having the line has been very, very um beneficial because of what line stands for and how we've really been able to utilize that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people kind of people can be dismissive of this and say, well, that's not really serious, you know, it's not serious part of the brand.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think all of those factors together play a part in making people you need people need to be aware of the brand, they need to understand it and engage with it, and I think then you get real you you want people to really have affection for a brand and don't want it to disappear.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's creating a feeling.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you're able to create a feeling, then you're able you're getting to some much deeper, more emotive place that is sort of has longevity with your with your audiences, don't you?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean I was just thinking on that brand point, given the sort of um acquisitive nature, or or so certainly um some of the sort of more heast recent history for lion shots.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you like maybe some reflections generally around sort of going through through that?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because as we've talked about again in this podcast, is that you know this this market, we're gonna see more and more of that.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's um a competitive, congested market, and people are buying capabilities or merging businesses.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So just your reflections on what makes that successful from a marketing and comms lens.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess also go on the on the brand side, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're bringing businesses and brands together.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do you protect?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you flex?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make people culturally aligned to the kind of values of Lion Trust when they've kind of been living in breathing in a sort of slightly different environment?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we our first objective is we we've rebranded every every acquisition we've done, and we've tried to rebrand and integrate as quickly as possible.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think we feel that's really important.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the internal is really important, explaining before people join what we're trying to do in marketing, what our objective is, what we try and do with the brand.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what I've learned just a side point with people joining marketing is to spend as much time with them before they join.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: And for them to do almost the heavy lifting on the branding, because they're they know the funds and they know the fund managers before they join, they lead on the rebranding, and it means they learn about Lion Trust.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing is we've always taken aspects of the brands we've taken over and actually integrated it and slightly evolved the Lion Trust brand.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've talked before, I'm not I'm not a fan of rebrand, and we've kind of evolved it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look at the map um behind me, Twink, you can't.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Strategically placed.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've actually taken that from Majedi.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Majedi had brand uh maps, and and as part of part of what we do, we've incorporated the line and we've we've taken kind of animal conservation centres around the world into the into the map.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we've we've always taken, we took aspects of of sustainable lion's trust into the brand.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And River we've we're we're currently just acquired.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: We've in so I think it enhances the Lion Trust brand, and that's a really important point in terms of acquisitions.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing we do is try and get quick wins.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when we've got take funds on, we try and have promotional campaigns for funds of the companies we've acquired quickly, so we get um we could kind of get quick wins out of those acquisitions.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I love that sense also, Simon, that your brand isn't stuck and fixed and nothing will sort of penetrate it, whereas sort of taking taking what works elsewhere and thinking how it can evolve and it's sort of living, breathing um thing, I love that idea.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um not feeling like you've got all the answers, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and we've always been flexible.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think we learnt early on doing sports um branding and and digital, that you have to be flexible.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've always been very flexible, and we've always evolved it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you look back 17 years, the brand will look quite quite quite different.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I think most people won't notice because we've we've evolved it over a long period of time.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think you would you respond to how the company develops, the market develops as well.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe um Sumner Conscious to maybe just talk to how brand and strategy, marketing strategy is so much closer to kind of business strategy now.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think before kind of the water kind of would cascade or down and marketing would get sort of told what was going on, whereas now the relationship between the CMO and the CEO is so much tighter.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know that you and John have a good relationship, that you work together for a long time.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great boardroom dynamic.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wonder whether you could talk a little bit around can have any tips to kind of build that trusted relationship in the boardroom and and what that looks like.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think I benefited from working with John now for what 16 years, I think, 16, 17 years.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that longevity definitely helps.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: The others have said on your podcast, I think part of it is about proof, you know, demonstrating what marketing can bring.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when I joined, somebody said to me, Well, you're just a cost centre.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've never regarded marketing as a cost centre, and I think we um we don't just support sales, but we can drive, we can drive sales and we can drive that wider market.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important that marketing does that.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Gaining that trust from both obviously the CEO, the board, and the rest of the company, the evidence that that marketing can deliver.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the other benefits that I've got because of the legacy, we've got corporate comms, we've got PR, we've got a within marketing, and I think that one having that one department that covers both marketing and comms is really important because it means that we are part, we are early in into knowing information and working um with the senior lead, the rest of the senior leadership on that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that helps me guide and shape marketing in terms of what's coming as well.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: So knowing that is really important.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it comes, it comes back to relationships and marketing proof proving themselves, really.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it would be lovely if we can do that across the industry.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually an interesting point, that sort of integration of the kind of wider comms and PR piece.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So isn't always this kind of the case, kind of company to company, and having that sort of holistic view, kind of all inputs, all kind of engagement, it's sort of really tightly bound.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I um I totally see the power of that to be able to be across all aspects.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I know others, especially out of comms, don't agree, but I think having that alignment really it it really strengthens what you do.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's a natural point, something just to ask the question that we typically ask here, which is sort of what does success look like for marketing and financial services then?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it comes back, actually it comes back to war studies.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's the outcome.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's what what is the outcome that we're trying to achieve in marketing?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: That ultimately and that will vary from company to company.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think what's clearer with your podcast is that the different marketing departments are set up differently, and actually what they're trying to achieve is different in terms client base and in terms of the business.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think really marketing success is is driven by what the outcome, what you're trying to achieve, both for marketing and for the business.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say I would add a couple things to that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Coming back to our previous point, it'd be great if you know marketing universally across the industry was taken really seriously, as seriously as possible.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you know is is seen for how powerful it is.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other point I would make I think we have a real role in helping retail investors understand, demystify investment and understand it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know some businesses are very institutional focused, but I think we've got a real job to do to help people really understand investment and encourage them.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was interested I so I'm lucky to be chair of the foundation at Lion Trust that we set up a couple of years ago.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought about this last night I went to an event last night where one of our charitable partners is helping us borrowing entrepreneurs from backgrounds where where they need support that they don't normally get.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they were pitching and it was amazing the quality is amazing of their business ideas.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what's what really strikes me is that they they listen to they they're desperate for advice they're desperate for help they listen to everything that people say and it's it's really fulfilling to see that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we as an industry have a real role to play and I think marketing is a central role to play in that I can't resist a segue there then Simon to say in terms of advice and everybody listening here like the final tips for our listeners around how they think about their careers what what guidance and advice to do you have?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think picking up on a couple of themes I think be as curious as you can listen and learn as much as you can I think try and be proactive with ideas.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean work as hard as you know I think reward comes from work.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would also say talk talk to people I mean try and people have talked about a network but talk to people I'll get I'll to finish I'll give you a quick example um I got approached by somebody I'd known for a long time with an idea for an initiative for us to support I wasn't sure how it would work.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: We'd had one conversation I wasn't convinced but I kind of met them shall we say in a more relaxed environment and we just talked in a very unstructured way we went for a number of back and forth on a number of kind of issues and then they said something in passing that they hadn't mentioned before and I suddenly realized actually this could be something we could work with in terms of content.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking for something different um for a social channel for different content and it was only really by having that kind of meandering conversation that that came up.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't that wouldn't have come through from email or a normal business meeting in a in a room and I really I think that's one of the things I've learned some of the best ideas have come one when you're out and about doing other things and two from conversations that are not centered on trying to come up with ideas or a normal business meeting and I would really encourage people to have those conversations because you just don't know what will come out of it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you think oh this will be a waste of my time but it's it's it's surprising when they're really beneficial yes the kind of space for ideation almost like kind of stepping out of the kind of the very functional or or sort of efficient yeah love that.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome what a way to what a way to wrap up thank you so much for this conversation it's been an absolute treat.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much been great to talk to you thank you for having me it's been great