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Beyond Hiking in Shenandoah National Park: Climbing, Cascading, Navigation, & Survival Skills with Andy Nichols, Shenandoah Mountain Guides (Ep 92, Part 1) · Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more!

• 1:17
  Andy, welcome to Virginia Outdoor Adventures.
• 1:20
  Thank you, Jessica. I'm really thrilled to be here.
• 1:22
  For someone who has never heard of Shenandoah Mountain Guides, how would you describe what you do?
• 1:27
  Well, what we try to do is our whole philosophy since the get-go has been to empower people to go out and feel like they could do this on their own.
• 1:34
  They shouldn't need a guide. We want them to be enthusiastic about nature and creation, and we also want them to become good stewards of what they find.
• 1:45
  You lead people into some pretty unusual outdoor experiences in Shenandoah National Park. What was it about the mountains that originally drew you to this kind of work?
• 1:55
  I grew up right in the shadow of Shenandoah. I could see Skyland Drive from my front porch. Where I grew up, there's not a stoplight. There's not a McDonald's. There's not anything. So that was our playground. All growing up, you know, we'd ride our bikes up into the hollows. We go hiking.
• 2:10
  We go backpacking. We go climbing. We'd play in the waterfalls. We'd go swimming, and that was our playground.
• 2:16
  You've been guiding and teaching outdoor skills for decades. What keeps you excited about introducing people to the outdoors?
• 2:23
  I live vicariously through every discovery they have. There is nothing like seeing the excitement on somebody's face when they learn that this is really cool and this is something that is within their grasp.
• 2:34
  When people think about Shenandoah National Park, they often think hiking, waterfalls, skyline drives, scenic overlooks. What do they miss if they only experience the park from the traditional trails?
• 2:46
  Well, I was thinking about that, and it's kind of like saying you're going to the Smithsonian, and you drive in on the streets, on the roads in D.C. and all the museums, and you drive around and say, "Oh, we went to Washington today, but if you don't take time to get out of the car and go into the building, you really miss the magic.
• 3:03
  That's true. Do you know, Andy?
• 3:03
  I actually know people who have done that before. Can you believe that?
• 3:08
  I do believe that. It always makes me wonder what people are thinking. I actually had a cousin of my cousin. Their family came to D.C. and they literally drove right around, and then they turned around and drove back to Cleveland, and that was that. Edward Abbey, Edward Abbey, out in out in the Southwest. You know, he it was against roads totally because he wanted people to get out and on foot and see the backcountry and see what's really there instead of driving.
• 3:34
  Couldn't agree with you more about your feeling about Shenandoah and needing to get off the beaten path, and I have done many of the experiences that you offer through your guiding company with you, and have had amazing experiences.
• 3:47
  And I'm really excited to talk about these. I personally think you're one of the most knowledgeable and best guides in Virginia. We're going to talk about several things today, including rock climbing, cascading, and navigation and survival skills. Let's start off by diving into rock climbing.
• 4:05
  What does a first-time climbing day with you actually look like?
• 4:09
  Well, it's going to look a whole lot more like education than it is going out for a real blast of of thrill. It's going to be a blast of thrill, but we really want people to learn first. You know, we're going to talk about the rocks, how the rocks were formed. We're going to talk about the math and physics of the of building anchors and why they're safe and the mechanics of the equipment, why it's safe, why they should trust it, and you know the importance of redundancy. And it's going to be two hours before we even get on rock, and then we're going to talk about body mechanics, how the best way to move is, and you know if you're afraid, what is it that you're really afraid of?
• 4:46
  You know, is it just trying something new, and then you know figuring how to deal with each individual? It's just such a such a thrill. But then also to see them connect the dots with why, when it's done correctly, they're pretty safe activity. A lot of people don't let their guests, you know, or their clients see how the anchors are set. I really want my my clients to help set them, to see them, to make sure that it makes sense to them what we're doing from soup to nuts.
• 5:14
  Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Something that I experienced when I went climbing with you. You showed us how you set the anchors and why we didn't need to be concerned about our equipment failing us.
• 5:23
  Why it worked, and I think for people who are doing it for the first time, that really helps them feel a lot more comfortable.
• 5:32
  Well, it does, and and you know we say, look, this is we show them the logbooks, how we inspect our gear. We go through everything and let them actually help us with that. But the other part of it, and you know, part of being in a national park is the fact that we have a an amazing natural resource. So we're going to talk about the history of the geology, how these rocks were formed, why they're special, how the rocks out to the west were formed, how all of this happened, and how it all came to be. These are things that a lot of people just don't know. But it's really some some absolutely magical things about the rocks out there.
• 6:04
  We went climbing at Little Stony Man, which is an iconic part of Shenandoah, and I've been to Little Stony Man many many times over the decades. I'm sure other people have too, but this was a way of experiencing it that. I had never done before, so I felt like I connected with it in a whole new way.
• 6:22
  Well, people have been climbing there for probably well over 100 years. I mean, they're ancient pitons up there. I've been climbing there myself for 50 years at least, and that's a long time.
• 6:33
  And what makes that area particularly interesting for climbing?
• 6:37
  It's beautiful. It's so high up.
• 6:37
  You get a fresh breath of air every time. You never know what it's going to be, but you're looking down on you know on towns. You you feel the real sense of exposure. The other thing is it's adventure climbing to a certain extent. You know it's not bolted. It feels like a wilderness experience because you have to take all of your gear with you, it's called trad climbing. You're you're having to build everything as you go.
• 6:59
  It doesn't have man-made bolts or anchors or anything like that. So it's a fresh experience every time when we take it down.
• 7:06
  I think Yvonne Chenard said it looks like nothing more than a cloud has passed by.
• 7:12
  And when I went climbing with you, one thing that you made sure to have me do was to continuously stop and take in the scenery, and to look around and to take take it all in and really enjoy the moment and appreciate the moments.
• 7:27
  That's what it's all about. Just like so many hunters, so many hunters go out just to be outdoors. They're not really worried about getting anything, but climbing is the same thing.
• 7:36
  You're going to see things that nobody would ever see unless they were on the rocks.
• 7:40
  How much of climbing is physical versus mental?
• 7:44
  Especially at Stony Man, probably about 20% is physical, 80% is mental. It's a real big rock, and some people let that get into their heads and say,"Okay, just climb 20 feet and come back down. You know, keep it manageable. You know, challenge by choice concept.
• 7:55
  It's physically just not that demanding, but getting inside of your head saying, "Wow, I'm going to be that high up when I'm already this high up, is sometimes a challenge.
• 8:07
  Because when you're standing on the ground looking up, you might think, "Oh, that's not so bad.
• 8:09
  And then you get 10 feet off the ground, and suddenly you're realizing, "Oh, this is pretty high. Never mind going the rest of the way up, right? Well, and that's the thing. You know, we we want people to look as soon as they top out above the trees. You know, to look back behind and look at the Page Valley. That's the Page Valley is that branch of the Shenandoah Valley above Page County. You know, look at that because you're above the trees there.
• 8:35
  You still have a long ways to go, but it's really a breathtaking view.
• 8:39
  It's beautiful, and I have some pretty epic photos that I took while climbing. Just selfies I took with me, and like part of the rock behind me, but then just the whole valley behind the rest of me as well. And it's just beautiful. It was one of my favorite memories from the whole summer. Actually, I think was going climbing with you. It was just such a beautiful day.
• 9:00
  It was it was a gorgeous day.
• 9:00
  That was a gorgeous day.
• 9:03
  How do you help someone who's nervous about heights or afraid to trust the equipment?
• 9:08
  Well, we play games. The big thing is these ropes are really strong. We replace our ropes.
• 9:11
  You know, ropes are good for probably five to seven years. We replace ours every year because we do use them hard. If somebody has real doubts, we say, "Well, just hang on the rope, swing, you know, just play like a child again. You know, let's turn this into a game. Let's push off and swing. Let's swing this way and this way. And first thing you know, they're trusting the rope, and then they can climb, and they realize that the rope's going to catch them, and there's no there's no issues, but the whole idea of all teaching is keep it simple and make it fun, and you know I look at climbing is not necessarily guiding so much, but teaching, and it's not even teaching skills; it's teaching people how to overcome their own mental blocks.
• 9:54
  I absolutely agree with that. I know I've had my own mental blocks, and even though you know that you're perfectly safe when you're up there, your brain is playing tricks on you. You know it's trying to protect itself and maybe yeah, and it's telling you this is scary, even though you know that there's no way you could possibly fall. And you know you're an excellent belayer for me. You've always kept the rope really tight when I've asked you to, and so I know even if I slipped, I wouldn't move an inch. Yet, and yet my brain is still telling me this is scary.
• 10:25
  So there is a little bit of having to overcome that. I think it is, of course, but that's the key to growth too. Yes, all of learning, all of learning requires risk, and with adults especially, they get really comfortable and quit taking risks. They develop this comfort zone, and all of a sudden, now you're outside of that comfort zone, and you're taking a little bit of personal risk, even though you're very safe. But that's the key to growth and the key to learning.
• 10:50
  I couldn't agree more. I feel like once I have overcome that, then I just feel like a total badass. So there's that. I've got that going for me up there.
• 10:57
  What is the moment when you typically see the confidence click for someone?
• 11:04
  When somebody says they can't, and they can't, and they can't, they get to that point where they just say, "I can't do it, and all of a sudden they realize there's just one little tweak of one little move, and you know maybe they're only stepping up one inch. And all of a sudden, bam! The whole way is open to them now, and you can just see it. It just-it's a total change of their countenance.
• 11:25
  I'm gonna share something, and I hope-I hope she's gonna be okay with this. But my friend Tracy, when she came with us, that was her first time rock climbing, and you wouldn't have known it because she was excellent. I mean, she just went right up that rock like she had been doing it many, many times in the past. When the day was over and she got home, she posted on social media some photos and she said that it had been her first time and she was really nervous and she wasn't sure that she was going to be able to do it and she had a lot of doubts in her mind. But you helped her feel comfortable, and you gave her the confidence that she needed.
• 12:00
  And when she had finally done it, she just felt amazing about the accomplishment. And I think there's a lot to be said for that.
• 12:09
  You know, so many times we look at things as the big task got to get to the top. Gosh, let's take it one step at a time, and let's keep it fun. Because if it's not fun, why are we doing this? One step at a time. You can feel great accomplishment, you know, just going up two or three steps and looking back and say, "Look at that, and and she did fantastic. I mean, she kept plugging at it, and that was awesome. And you know, she rightfully she felt accomplished.
• 12:34
  Do you have a memorable first-time climber story that illustrates what this experience can do for someone.
• 12:40
  Yes, I do, and it happened about well, way more than 50 years ago. There was a 12-year-old boy. His name was Andy Nichols, and he went rappelling with a friend and climbing with a friend. I had been working at a at a summer camp that summer.
• 12:55
  This was on a weekend, and it was very much verboten sort of activity to do, but we went anyway. And I remember the first time ever rappelling down this big sandstone rock or quartzite.
• 13:08
  Actually, it's a feeling that I will have my entire life. I was terrified. I felt like I was the coolest dude in the on the planet. I got to the bottom, and I was like, "Dude, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And you know, and then the climbing, of course, went with that. And that, when I started this company, that was a guiding principle for me. It wasn't so much about doing the job because all you're doing is managing gravity. But what I did was I learned about myself that I had to really just sort of suck it up and keep persevering and boom and it was the most incredible feeling I've ever had and I will remember this to the day I die.
• 13:52
  I'm really glad you shared that because I remember you sharing this story with me once before, and I think it really illustrates what these experiences can do for someone.
• 14:00
  I think a lot of times people look at something like rock climbing and they think, "Oh, that's not for me, or you know,"That's not something I I want to try. That's not what I do. I just hike, or I like the overlooks. And all of that is great, but I think this gives you an opportunity to see things from a different perspective, but also have a completely different experience that you're not going to have the traditional way.
• 14:23
  It's so personal. All right, Andy. Let's move on to cascading. This is my favorite adventure that you offer through your company. I've done it with you twice now, and both times it has been the absolute highlight of my summer. And I posted some pictures from the last time we went and some videos, and they just blew up. Everybody was asking me about it. We couldn't not share cascading with the listeners, so I'm really excited to talk about it. I actually got to do this with you in White Oak Canyon both times. It's one of the most unique outdoor adventures I've ever personally had in Virginia, which is saying a lot because I've done a lot around here. So I want to unpack this for people because many of them have probably never heard the term before, and I'm sure they're wondering what exactly is cascading. So how do you explain it to someone who's never heard of it?
• 15:52
  Cascading is actually just canyoneering. You know, you talk about it out west, and we just said, well, gosh, it's very-it's a little bit different here.
• 15:58
  We've got trees on our canyons instead of bare rock. We have water in our canyons all the time. We're going to call it cascading, but cascading is just pure fun. Oh my God, it's like being a kid again. I don't care how old you are-you know-I'm almost 70 years old, and to me, every time I'm up there, as you've seen, I feel like.
• 16:17
  Probably 15 or 16 all over again. It's just all the cares of the world just drop away. But anyway, you know, it's just it's pure fun.
• 16:25
  I don't know of anybody else offering this type of adventure in Virginia. How did you develop the style, especially for the East Coast?
• 16:34
  We pioneered this when I was a kid, actually. Again, growing up right there in Rappahannock County, you know we spent a lot of our time in the back country.
• 16:41
  We had ropes, we had all kinds of gear. We said, "Gosh, instead of climbing, let's go play in a waterfall. And so all of a sudden, then canyoneering became very popular out west. We were doing high adventure programs for Boy Scouts, and we started running cascading trips because it's so unique. And first thing you know, Southern Living writers started following us around, and and I think it was 2010 or 11. They said you know they had an article or a section on best adventures in the South.
• 17:08
  That was the best adventure in the whole South for the summertime. And I was like, yeah, well, duh. You put two and two together. You know, you got a rope. You got Bowser at heart and water. There you go.
• 17:24
  What makes the waterways and canyons of the Blue Ridge so well suited for cascading?
• 17:28
  It goes back to the geology that we talk about with the climbing.
• 17:31
  The whole east side of the Blue Ridge, it's metabasalt, which is a smooth, fine-grained rock, but it's also very soft. And so, when the water runs over it, the water doesn't penetrate it. It's an impermeable rock, but it does wear it down. So you've got these canyons that are hundreds of feet carved into the rock over the millions of years, and almost every drainage coming out of the Blue Ridge has some sort of waterfall or canyon.
• 17:54
  Historically, there's always been a lot of water that might change in the future. It's just one of those things where you know now they're they're doing it up in New Hampshire. North Carolina has a lot of of canyon air cascading, but Virginia still doesn't have too much.
• 18:06
  We've done it in West Virginia.
• 18:09
  We've gone all over the place, but it's just you know it's it's still one of those kind of out there sort of activities you're doing what, but it's still fun.
• 18:19
  Yeah, it's so much fun. So let's break this down for folks. Take us through a typical cascading adventure. What might someone experience in a day?
• 18:28
  Well, what we do is we try to meet in the parking lot and we make sure that everybody's ready first because people think they're ready. And we're like, yeah, well, you really don't want to wear jewelry because you'll lose it, and you really want to wear sneakers, and you're going to get totally soaking wet, and you don't want to take a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because it's going to want to be in soggy and wet. And we just kind of do a a sanity check as far as what you're taking. Is everything that you have okay to get wet?
• 18:51
  And that goes even into the fall when we're wearing wetsuits and stuff. We just want to make sure that everybody's engaging their brain and saying, "Yep, we're going to get totally wet, and then we go up. We talk about where we're going. We talk about the trip, the actual canyon that we're going to, because we have several that we use. We say,"Here's what to expect. You know, is it going to be a hard hike, a short hike, a flat hike, a steep hike, and then show them where we're going to start and where we're going to finish, and then we head on up and we prepare ourselves. We do whatever the stream calls for.
• 19:17
  If we're waiting, we're waiting.
• 19:17
  If we're jumping, we're jumping.
• 19:19
  If we need harnesses, the whole time we're wearing helmets, of course. You know, and then we just take challenge at a time.
• 19:25
  The biggest thing about this, and also goes back to rock climbing too, is communicating with each other. You know, with climbing, you got to communicate with your blare. Blair's got to communicate with the climber.
• 19:34
  With cascading, you need to communicate what you're experiencing, so the person behind you has either a better experience or doesn't get stuck someplace. And if you need help, say I need some help. Say I need I'm uptight. I need I need a little bit of confidence here.
• 19:50
  That was my experience as well.
• 19:50
  I know the first time I did this with you, it was a small group.
• 19:53
  I think there were five of us, maybe or six. It was very small, and then the second time it was you, me, and once again my friend Tracy. So it's you do have to talk to each other and communicate. You have to get the information for the person in front of you, and then pass it to the person behind you. And you have to watch and pay attention to how people are moving through the canyon, so that you can figure out where you're going to put your feet and where you're going to grab on, or how you're going to stabilize yourself, what potential dangers there are to look out for, and and just making sure that you are constantly communicating that all of that information to make it the best experience as possible. And this includes a lot. I mean, there's a lot going on. There's swimming, scrambling. There are natural water slides. There's the actual rappelling where you have to put on the harness and you use the ropes to go down the waterfalls.
• 20:43
  So, how do you assess all of these conditions before taking people into the water?
• 20:50
  I live on weather forecasts. Oh my God! I get three or four first thing in the morning, and I take them all day long, all season long, and you know, then it's eyes on. You know, we go out and we know from experience, you know, what to expect. You know, in the watershed if they've gotten rain overnight, or or what do they see what's going on. And if there's any risks, you know, we're not going to go there. If there's lightning and thunder, if it's pouring rain, we just don't go.
• 21:11
  You know, the other thing I want to mention is that we don't take large groups. You know, fives, five or six, maybe. It's about the largest group we take, and we do a lot of work with families because when you get an eight-year-old or a nine-year-old or a 16-year-old with only the parents, man, it's a level playing field. Nobody has an advantage, and it's great for the kids to see their parents have a little bit of anxiety, and it's great for the parents to see their kids rise to the occasion. It's just wonderful. The biggest thing is experience. I've lived by and in the mountains for so long. I just watch everything and just observe everything, and and if I have any doubts, I know who to call to find out.
• 21:47
  You just can't experience it any other way. This it's so unique, and each time that I've gone with you, there have been other hikers who have been on the trail and seen us going through the water or rappelling down the waterfalls, and they stop and ask, like, "What are you doing?
• 22:01
  What's going on here? How do you do this? What you know? What's happening? And people are naturally curious, and I think they really would like to know, like, "How can you experience something like this? So it gets a lot of attention.
• 22:17
  Well, and the other thing it does for the people to go with us, going back to the whole stewardship thing, so many people go to these different places and they leave trash.
• 22:25
  We've taken so many groups this year. We took probably every other group we took out. We took trash bags with us and we cleaned up the trash. And I want people to see other people that are hiking that we, even though we're recreating there, we're also cleaning up trash, and by the way, we did find five Apple watches this year.
• 22:41
  Wow, that's a lot of money right now.
• 22:44
  An iPhone with a wallet attached.
• 22:47
  Oh my gosh, were you able to figure out who it belonged to?
• 22:50
  No, but we had a great dinner on a credit card. No, no, you didn't, Andy. No, we got there. We got there.
• 23:00
  We got their address, and we took it right to their house and delivered it to them.
• 23:02
  Oh, you're such a nice guy. That that's that is above and beyond what anybody could expect. I'm sure they were very happy to see it again.
• 23:11
  We never got to thank you or anything. I think he was too embarrassed to admit that they lost it.
• 23:15
  Oh my gosh, people are interesting, actually. So I think last time you and I went, you brought goggles, like swim goggles, and you got into the pool at the bottom of one of the waterfalls, and you were looking for things.
• 23:29
  We found Garmin watches. We found GoPros. We have found you name it. There is a jade monkey down there. Did you remember me talking about the jade monkey?
• 23:37
  Maybe that's what it was you were looking for. Yeah, there was a diplomat's son came with us a few years ago and had a big jade amulet that looked like a monkey, and we said, "You don't want to wear that. Jumped in, came up, gone.
• 23:50
  Yeah, people don't listen, huh?
• 23:52
  You can lead a horse to water, but that's the way it goes.
• 23:55
  Yeah, what skills are you teaching participants as they're moving through the canyon?
• 24:00
  In all honesty, the biggest one is communication and trust. You got to learn to can't necessarily see the bottom, so you got to feel the bottom and share that experience with the person behind you. What's going on? Is this going to be really slippery? Is this going to be something where I'm going to go in over my head? That's that's the biggest thing again, it's the whole idea is to be immersed in the moment. A magazine did an article on us one time, and they said, you know, the biggest lesson here on this is just like a therapist tries to get you in the moment. If you are thinking one step in front of you or two steps in front of you, and not focusing on the absolute moment, you're going to slip. Water's going to push you this way.
• 24:39
  Gravity's going to pull you that way. You're going to fall.
• 24:42
  You're going to have all sorts of issues. You're going to be-it's-it's crazy. But you have got to do nothing but be in the moment. And by being in the moment, it frees you up, and you come down, and you're like, not only have you been washed with this beautiful clear water, but you're coming down. You feel totally mentally refreshed because you're like, all I've done is be in the moment for this entire trip.
• 25:04
  I experienced that both times with you. When we got to the end, I realized that I had not been thinking about anything else the entire time, and that's unusual for me, especially when I'm hiking or riding my bike, or and I have all this time to be in my head about things, I'm always thinking about what's the next thing I have to do. What you know, what's on my to-do list? What else is going on? And I didn't have any of that when I was moving through the canyon.
• 25:26
  And I also think there's a lot of self-awareness you need to have. You need to know what your arms are doing, what your legs are doing, how to position yourself, how to make sure you don't slip. And there's all these different things that you have to be thinking about as you're moving through.
• 25:41
  Yeah, one of the things that I think is the for me the highest praise of it all over the years.
• 25:44
  We've taken many spiritual leaders out, you know, both Christian, Jewish, all sorts of religions. It doesn't matter, and have had several rabbis, you know, contact me and say, "Hey, I wrote an entire sermon on this trip, and I'm like, that's pretty darn awesome, you know.
• 26:01
  If you provide an experience in nature sufficient enough for a person who's a who's a rabbi has a congregation in Manhattan of all places, where you've got congregations of 1000s of people, and it speaks to you loud enough that you can you can be motivated to write a sermon.
• 26:15
  To me, that's pretty cool. What is one cascading trip that you'll never forget, Andy?
• 26:53
  Probably it's kind of along the same lines as the one that I told you about with climbing several years ago. In fact, there's somebody made a video of it someplace. I went with some friends. We're in October, middle of October, and the colors were just stunning. We're in wetsuits, and the water was just sparkling. In fact, when I think back on it, sometimes I have to pinch myself because everything was crystal clear. It was the most perfect trip I've ever been on, I think, and you know the colors. The scow was not a cloud in it. Just you know this beautiful azure blue with yellow leaves and sparkling water and clear cool water and good friends and having a great time. And life doesn't get a whole lot better than that.
• 27:40
  It doesn't, especially when you're with amazing people and beautiful scenery. And again, just like when we were rock climbing while we were cascading, you were regularly pausing to say, "Look around you, take this all in. And I was so glad that you did that because every time you did, I got to just pause and hear and feel the rush of the water, feel the water on my skin, take in the sun and the trees and the fresh air, and it just doesn't get better than that.
• 28:13
  Intoxicating. I mean, and you know, a lot of people will say,"Well, gosh, I'm just going to rappel down this waterfall and be done with it. Well, if you stop in the middle, it's a totally different experience.
• 28:22
  So, Andy, let's talk about navigation. The first time that you and I met, you were actually teaching a navigation course to the volunteers of the Old Rag Mountain Stewards, and I had done an episode with them a couple of seasons ago that I should link in the show notes here if anybody wants to learn about this amazing volunteer organization that helps the park rangers provide stewardship services on Old Rag and to help people on Old Rag Mountain, so I will link that episode in the show notes. So people who are maybe new to this podcast since then who haven't heard it can listen to that. But that was when I met you, and I was so intrigued about the way that you taught navigation and why it's so important. So, can you explain why hikers today still need to know how to use a map and compass when we all have GPS on our phones?
• 29:11
  Well, it's kind of funny because I was, you know, I'm the one who started the old Reg Mountain Steward program, and there's a long story behind that too, navigation is a superpower, and people are like, "Why do I need to know this? Well, it's it's the problem is is navigation works. You know, map and compass navigation works no matter whether it's hot, cold, day, night, whatever. You can be in dense woods, you can be in you know steep canyons. You don't have to worry about GPS signal, but you know it's also 1000-year-old art. So you know people navigating forever, and so many people think it's so hard, and it's really so simple.
• 29:45
  You know the whole idea is you just got to cut through a lot of the a lot of the baloney that people try to make it seem like it's super you know super hard, but it's just not. And like I said, it's a superpower. Once you learn to read a map and use a compass, and use a compass in combination with a map, you know it's piece of cake.
• 30:05
  When people sign up for your course, what do you think is the main reason why they're signing up? Do you do you feel like this is a survival skill or it's a safety skill, or what is it that drives people to register with you? A lot of people just want to increase their knowledge.
• 30:19
  Lately, we have a lot of people that are going to on the the Tour de Mont Blanc. You know, going to Europe, and they need to know some basic navigation skills. You know, I teach navigation for you know maritime environments as well as mountain environments and you know land based navigation, land nav as we call it. But it's you know people are trying to learn for all sorts of reasons. A lot of people just want to be comfortable in the woods. You know when we teach our basic outdoor skills class, you know people talk about the the 10 essentials. Well, one is a map and one is a compass. If you don't know how to use a map and compass, why are you even taking it? You know learning how to use those things just a bare modicum. It's like swimming.
• 30:55
  People used to say, "Well, if you're going to learn to swim, just throw them in the water.
• 30:59
  You'll learn to swim. Well, you know, it doesn't work that way.
• 31:01
  And when you're lost, you're not going to learn how to use a map and compass. It's better to learn before, and then you know, just like first aid and everything else, it'll come back to you when you need it.
• 31:12
  I hope so because I have learned several times, but I never practice it, and that.
• 31:16
  Makes me nervous that if I'm not practicing it, that I'm not going to actually know how to do it when I need it.
• 31:22
  It's good to practice.
• 31:23
  What are the biggest mistakes that you see people making with navigation?
• 31:27
  Making it too hard, trying to make it overcomplicated. You know, you've got a magnetic needle and you've got a constant there, which is your magnetic north, and then you've got your base plate of your compass, and then you've got your map. And anything more than that is unnecessarily complicated, you know, for you know close-in navigation here.
• 31:50
  So I think a lot of people are used to following GPS on their phones, and I know I'm guilty of this myself. We just get used to following a line on a screen.
• 31:57
  So, how do you teach someone to understand a topographic map instead?
• 32:03
  If you walk around with your head in your phone or your head in your compass, you're going to fall off a cliff. You're going to miss everything that's all around you. So, if you free yourself up to say, "Well, I want to go on X bearing for this distance, you know, a bearing is a one of 360 degrees of travel, and then you free yourself up to look around and say, "Wow, this is really cool, and you don't have to worry about looking constantly or anything like that. You've you've chosen your landmarks. You can go to those, and really, it's just like everything else. You learn to enjoy the experience versus burying your head and a device, learn the topography. Say, okay, well, if I if I see those contour lines that are really steep over there, it need it means I'm either going to go down a cliff or up a you know up a cliff, up or down, one or the other. And if I see you know a really beautiful place where there's a stream that comes down where you've got topographic lines, it means you're probably going to have a nice little waterfall and you know be able to go cascading too. No, you and I just really want to go cascading now, Andy. I know, I know. Okay, so other than that, is there anything else that the landscape can tell you about where you are.
• 33:19
  If you get really good with correlating your topographic map with your landscape, what you're seeing and and what the land and what you're seeing on your map versus what you're seeing in the land, you can actually do away with the compass to a large extent because you can, you know, orient your map, which is make it look like the land just with the terrain features, and that's a great challenge too.
• 33:38
  Because terrain features, to me,
• 33:41
  that's what it's all about: is learning how to look at your map in advance and just appreciate the terrain and say, "Well, is this the best way to go? You know, orienteering the sport is all about you know figuring out where you are, figuring out where you're going to go, and then how are you going to get there. And once you learn to associate your terrain features or associate your topographic map symbols with your terrain features, then it becomes pretty clear that you can either follow a road or swim across a lake.
• 34:07
  that's what it's all about: You know, you know, there's some choices, and it gives you the freedom to make those choices.
• 34:14
  that's what it's all about: And orienteering has become hugely popular too. So, does that does a course like yours actually help people with that?
• 34:22
  that's what it's all about: Oh yeah, I should teach that at the college level. Orienteering is a great sport. I love orienteering. It might be the best, one of the best sports in the world.
• 34:30
  that's what it's all about: Well, and I just recently learned that they have national and international competitions for orienteering.
• 34:35
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, and it was an Olympic sport for a long time, wow! I know that Quantico Orienteering, by the way, which should be another podcast. Quantico Orienteering is one of the best orienteering organizations in the United States, and that's like right in my backyard. I didn't even realize.
• 34:50
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, wow! Courses all over the place.
• 34:53
  that's what it's all about: I have some contacts there, but I haven't met up with them yet.
• 34:56
  that's what it's all about: So I think you just nudged me, Andy. I'm going to have to reach out to those people again. You know, I ran when I was in high school and college. I ran, you know, swam and all that sort of stuff.
• 35:05
  that's what it's all about: But the big thing is orienteering is like thinking man's cross country. You know, you're traveling across the country, but you've got to think. You know, okay, I'm putting you know my my bearings together along with what I'm looking for, and you know, all of a sudden becomes like a scavenger hunt, and it's orienteering that is anyway, and that's to me really fun.
• 35:26
  that's what it's all about: Is there one navigation skill that every Virginia hiker should know?
• 35:30
  that's what it's all about: Yes, it is how to orient a map, and that's how to make the map match the land. Without that, you can look at a map all day long. It won't make any sense in the world to you. You can't go any place. As soon as you do that, everything becomes very clear and obvious. Well, I think it does.
• 35:48
  that's what it's all about: Can someone become genuinely comfortable navigating without technology after taking your course?
• 35:54
  that's what it's all about: I think so. I'm a big fan of no technology. I did a 600-mile kayak trip the other year with no technology, just map and compass, or chart and compass.
• 36:01
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, I think it just like anything else, you need to practice. You know, you need to go out and practice, and you know, go into as many different terrains as possible with as many different maps, and and start doing terrain association and practice, practice, practice, practice. Yeah, I think so. Personally, the whole idea is to empower people. Like I said at the start, you know, everything that we do is to empower people to enrich their experience through skills, and not even complicated skills, basic skills.
• 38:36
  that's what it's all about: We're gonna move on to the last section, which is about survival skills, and I get requests for this all the time. So I'm really glad that we're talking about survival skills and what to do if things go wrong. So your survival course has a phrase that I really like. You call it turning the what if into the now what. So what does that mean to you?
• 39:00
  that's what it's all about: It's a basic outdoor skills course, is what it is. You know, it's planning, learning how to plan and prepare for those what if situations. And once you find yourself in that situation, what are you going to do now? Too many survival courses are all into well, let's let's hunt ourselves a rabbit and skin it, and then we'll make some clothes out of the fur, and then we'll build a shelter, and then build a fire, and that's way too complicated. That's not what people really need to know. The big thing is preparing yourself mentally before you get into a situation where now you've got to think.
• 39:33
  that's what it's all about: What are the most common situations that can turn an ordinary hike into an emergency, injury is a big one. Weather changing really quickly. Another one is a loss of situational awareness. You're outside and you're just having a great time.
• 39:46
  that's what it's all about: You took the map and compass class, and you're just walking around looking, being all of a sudden, crap. What did Andy say?
• 39:50
  that's what it's all about: You know, all of a sudden you start sitting there, and instead of panicking, you need to just sort of sit down. We always say,"Papa, wild cherry lifesaver.
• 40:02
  that's what it's all about: You know, get a lifesaver in your mouth. Give yourself some, you know, some sugar, and say,"Okay, now what's going on here?
• 40:07
  that's what it's all about: Let's let's think about this rationally. If we panic and run around with our, you know, like a chicken with its head cut off, as my mother used to say, nobody gains from that. We we can solve this problem pretty simply if we have gone about our task of preparing ourselves mentally, physically, and to a certain extent materially as well.
• 40:26
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, and I hope you don't mind if I go back to Old Rag Mountain Stewards again because I know you're so proud of that group.
• 40:31
  that's what it's all about: But also, I just think that they provide such a wonderful service to the park. When I attended that training, I remember them saying that most people set off to hike old rag. They don't plan to sprain an ankle or to become dehydrated or to have some other emergency situation come up. So, would your survival skills training help in those situations?
• 40:53
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, definitely. You know, because again, it goes back to be prepared. Going back to the Boy Scout thing, always be prepared. Think about what you're doing beforehand, and it doesn't take a long time. Just let's let's look at the weather forecast. Let's think. Okay, it's supposed to be 100 degrees.
• 41:07
  that's what it's all about: Well, maybe I should take a little extra water, or maybe I should take a little salty snack, or maybe I should think about if my if I haven't been hiking before, maybe I should do. Some walking before I just show up on old rag. Everybody, as we get older, we forget that we don't have the same skills that we had as a kid. If you set off and say, "Okay, we're gonna we're gonna set off when I say go and we're gonna run, I guarantee you, 50% of adults are gonna fall onto the ground because they've forgotten that they need to move their feet fast when they lean their bodies forward. They have to move their feet to keep up with them. As our bodies change, especially in this region where a lot of people work in office jobs and stuff during the week, you know, think about preparing just a little bit more and just tuning in just a little bit more to where you really are physically and your and your capabilities.
• 41:54
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, I see that happening with a lot of my friends. Frankly, you know, we've gotten to the age where we we don't realize we're starting to age now, and things just don't work the way they used to. And we assume that we can hike 15 miles in a in a day, and it's no big deal. And then you get partway through it, and you're like, "Oh, maybe it's time to turn around.
• 42:15
  that's what it's all about: It's funny. A friend of mine set out to do the CNO canal in a day on his bike the other year, and he's probably a few years younger than I am, but not a whole lot. And after about three or four hours, man, he said he was done. I was like, you know, you need to train a little bit before you just sit out to bike the CNO canal in a day. You know, yeah, you do it probably when you're younger and biking a lot, but just coming out of your office job, it's not going to work.
• 42:37
  that's what it's all about: What should people carry with them on every outdoor adventure?
• 42:40
  that's what it's all about: The most important thing is what they've got in their head.
• 42:44
  that's what it's all about: They've got the 10 essentials.
• 42:44
  that's what it's all about: You've got this. You've got that. To me, you need to think about the things that are going to end your life the fastest.
• 42:49
  that's what it's all about: You know, in this situation, for the most part, it's the rule of three: is you can, you know, you're going to have plenty of oxygen, you know, to breathe.
• 42:57
  that's what it's all about: Hopefully, unless you've fallen into the water, you can live for three minutes without oxygen, a little bit more. You can live for three days without water. So water's definitely on there, but you can live for three weeks without food. You don't need to worry about food, but you need to think about always what's going to cause your demise first. You know what's going to kill you first. It could be the weather. It could be dehydration. It could be falling off a rock. It could be all sorts of things, and you prepare yourself that way just by doing your homework in advance a little bit and preparing yourself mentally for that. If I know that I'm going in a canyon with Andy to go cascading, well, by God, I'm going to think about you know thinking about good footwear for sure.
• 43:38
  that's what it's all about: For sure, anything like that.
• 43:38
  that's what it's all about: Just, just mentally prepare yourself. That's the most important thing.
• 43:44
  that's what it's all about: Let's talk a moment about water because that's a big one. What should someone do if they unexpectedly run out of drinking water?
• 43:52
  that's what it's all about: Well, it depends on where you are. If you're in a really bad spot and all you've got is a mud puddle, and you're all by yourself, and you're way, way out there. If you don't do what you can to, you know, clean it up as you can, but if you don't drink it, you know, you're still going to die. And you can you can treat giardia, you can treat diseases, but they can't treat death. So again, the best thing to do is to repair. Look at where you're going in advance.
• 44:18
  that's what it's all about: Are you going to have streams?
• 44:22
  that's what it's all about: Are you going to have springs?
• 44:22
  that's what it's all about: And if there are, then you need to take things so that you can make that water potable. If not, be prepared to drink raw water, which is again, it's going to keep you alive. But preparation is the key.
• 44:36
  that's what it's all about: Now, what about emergency fire?
• 44:36
  that's what it's all about: Because I think a lot of people when they hear survival skills, this is one of the first things they think of. But how important is it to know how to make a fire?
• 44:45
  that's what it's all about: It's a good skill to have. I would say it's not it's not one of the not one of the top skills. But once you have a fire, just like with Tom Hanks, you know, I've got fire. You've got to come. You're not. You're no longer surviving. You're camping, you know, because you have a method by which you can stay warm. You've got a method by which you can treat water.
• 45:07
  that's what it's all about: You've got a method by which you can signal. I mean, if you build a fire in a wilderness area someplace, you're going to wind up inside with three meals a day because you're going to go to jail.
• 45:18
  that's what it's all about: That's right, but no, you're going to be found. So fire is kind of a good skill, but you know all these other you know organizations say we're going to teach you how to build a shelter and this and that, and you know then we're going to catch and skin a squirrel.
• 45:33
  that's what it's all about: Seriously, that's not shelter.
• 45:33
  that's what it's all about: Is nice. You need to be protected from the weather, but it doesn't need to be building, you know, this bushcraft, you know, log cabin or stone cabin.
• 45:45
  that's what it's all about: And increasingly in Shenandoah, in the backcountry, they're seeing people do those things, which is bordering on vandalism, because not it's just not necessary.
• 45:54
  that's what it's all about: Well, and it's not leave no trace either.
• 45:56
  that's what it's all about: Not leave no trace.
• 45:57
  that's what it's all about: Yeah, and I've always wondered about the skinning a rabbit and building a shelter and all that.
• 46:00
  that's what it's all about: Like, where are you going to come up with the time with the energy for that?
• 46:04
  that's what it's all about: Well, and that's the thing.
• 46:04
  that's what it's all about: You've got an energy budget. You know, if you're out there and you don't have food, the more energy that you put into that, the hungrier you're going to get. And now instead of three weeks you can live without food, you're going to get really hungry and. Really grouchy, and you're gonna say, "Man, I'm gonna eat those shoes. I'm gonna eat my clothes. I'm gonna eat those worms. You know, don't go there. It's just ridiculous.
• 46:25
  that's what it's all about: Yeah. The whole idea is survival is a lazy person's game. The less energy you expend, the less energy you need, and you know you're gonna be expending energy just to stay warm. Right, and those are all very extreme situations. I think for most hikers, they don't need to know what to do in those extreme situations. They just need to know what to do if something goes wrong on their hike. Get through the next 24 hours, 48 hours at the worst.
• 46:50
  that's what it's all about: Make sure somebody knows where you're going, and make sure you've got plans made so that if you're not back in time, somebody can say, "Well, I'm going to call somebody and say we need to, you know, get a search going because this person's way overdue. They were in this area, and especially in Shenandoah, you know, Shenandoah National Park is only like five miles wide. You know, you start heading downhill, and you're going to wind up in somebody's backyard, or somebody's apple orchard, or you know, whatever you're going to be there.
• 47:17
  that's what it's all about: And I think the most important thing is letting people know where you're going to be, and that's the one thing that a lot of people neglect to do.
• 47:24
  that's what it's all about: I've been guilty of that, but not too much anymore. I always say, "Okay, I'm going to follow a flight plan. Here's where I am. Here's where I should be. If I'm not back by this time, you know, expect this. Here's what I'm going to have with me, so
• 47:36
  that people will know: Am I prepared for the night? Am I not prepared for the night? What am I going to have? Along with that, the people that I'm with, how many people? And when I when I'm taking people out, I'm the one responsible for that. So I need to make sure that I know everything about these people, and make sure that they are preparing themselves as well before climbing and before cascading. That's part of what
• 47:56
  we do: make sure that we have everything that we're going to need.
• 48:18
  we do: What do people tend to overpack for emergencies, and what do they tend to leave behind?
• 48:25
  we do: There's two schools of thought.
• 48:25
  we do: One school of thought is you buy or you carry with you one piece of equipment that can do three or four things. The other school of thought, I call it the RAS school of thought. Well, you buy a piece of equipment, and then when that goes bad, you have to have a backup, and then a backup for the backup. So there are some three things to do one skill. I tend to prefer to get really good something, you know, whatever that might be. It might be a knife or a, you know, who knows what a widget, and have it serve three or four purposes.
• 48:54
  we do: That way, I'm not carrying a ton of weight with me. This should not be a burdensome activity.
• 48:57
  we do: Preparing myself should not be burdensome. It should be something that I do, and I can carry it with me wherever I go.
• 49:03
  we do: If I'm getting out of the car just for a quick hike, I can carry it with me. Or if I'm going for a long, a long trip, I can carry it with me. Every single one of my packs, whether it's my climbing pack, my backpacking pack, my cascading pack, it all has different gear in there that I can use for different things, and it stays permanently packed.
• 49:20
  we do: I am same way. My pack is permanently packed with the 10 essentials and everything else that I need. And I oftentimes see myself hiking, and I'm the only person with a pack my size, and everybody else has some packs.
• 49:33
  we do: Yeah, or not even a real pack, but just like some sort of a bag on their back or nothing at all.
• 49:37
  we do: I was hiking once and saw some guy with just a pair of shorts on, and he was carrying a gallon of water in one hand, and that was all he had with them. And I, I just sort of like I, I don't, I scratch my head a little bit because I don't understand. Are they not concerned about what might happen, or that they might need something else.
• 49:58
  we do: Again, that goes with experience. You know, a lot of novices will think, "Well, I don't need this, and then on the other end of the spectrum, a lot of very experienced people will say, "I don't need this. And I tend to go out, and again, part of the mental preparation is I look at a list or I look at what I'm doing, and I say, "Well, is it better to have it and not need it, or is it better to need it and not have it? I tend to a lot of times. I've got stuff in my backpacking pack, stuff that I've never used. But the minute I need it, I'm going to be really damn glad I've got it on my climbing pack. I've got all kinds of crazy stuff in there.
• 50:33
  we do: Again, when it comes time to need it, I'm really glad I've got it. I carry probably three or four, you know, beanie stocking caps in my climbing pack. We've had days where it's gotten really cold, and and I've got I've outfitted everybody with stocking caps, just because I've got them. And you know, all of a sudden you become a rock star. You're like, wow, okay, cool. Oh yeah, everybody's thrilled when the thing they really wish they had somebody else has for them.
• 50:57
  we do: Yeah, I'm the type of the tends to overpack, or maybe not overpack, but make sure that I have all the things all the time. And so my pack is definitely heavier than what I see most people carrying. But you know, the the big trend now is people are walking and running and hiking with these weighted vests on, and. When I first saw that, I was like,"Huh, I've been the OG in carrying a weighted pack all these years, and I don't need to go out and buy, you know, some sand-filled pack or whatever because I've been carrying my pack like that for years.
• 51:29
  we do: Well, I tend to go, I tend to go on the light side of things for the most part, but again, everything I've got has three or four purposes.
• 51:36
  we do: How can learning survival skills actually make people more confident rather than more fearful because it frees you up. We learn the principles behind them. We talk about them. We do this. We do that. But then we go out and we practice them and we use them. We do have one day classes. We have two day classes and we have three day classes.
• 51:53
  we do: And I got to tell you, with three day classes, I started those when my sons were Boy Scouts, and I was a scout leader. And we would get these 13-year-old boys together on a Friday evening. We just head out into the mountain behind the house, and we'd be out there for the whole weekend just with whatever we happen to bring. And all of a sudden, these kids are coming back on Sunday, ready to kick butt and take names because they realize that you know this is very doable. You know, just being a little bit aware and not, you know, not having tents or anything like that, but just you know, maybe a trash bag or something, just amazing stuff.
• 52:22
  we do: But it makes your whole experience. It takes a burden off of your shoulders, so that again, so that you can, you're you're going into the woods to embrace creation, and you're going into the woods to practice the stewardship concept and say,"Wow, this is amazing for me. I want it to be amazing for the next generation and whoever I'm with. By learning some basic skills of just how to prepare yourself, it just turns the whole thing into just a burden off of your shoulders and lets you embrace the entire experience.
• 52:57
  we do: And on that note, if you could give every Virginia hiker one piece of outdoor safety advice, what would it be?
• 53:04
  we do: Do your homework in advance. You know, look at the weather, look at where you're going, read the map, read the read the footnotes. You know, find out as much as you can, and then go and drink it in and say, Ah, this is what they were talking about is Virginia. I got to tell you, Virginia's you know being a Virginia for 250 years. My family, you know, original settlers, and I'm like, this is the coolest state in the world.
• 54:07
  we do: Andy, we're going to tie all of these themes together: adventure plus skills plus confidence. So you've introduced people to climbing, cascading, navigation, and survival skills. What do you think these experiences teach people beyond the specific activity?
• 54:23
  we do: They teach them about themselves in this whole magical realm of creation, because creation is something that I don't even have the right words. It just totally fails me. It's just so miraculous when you start looking at the ecosystems and how everything has evolved over time, and I'm looking out at the sun setting on the mountain as I'm doing this, the alpenglow, and it's just it's one of those things that I want everybody to feel like they can just wrap in their arms and give it a bear hug, and then back away from it and say, Ah, I just did that. Do you think that people see Shenandoah differently after they've learned to navigate it, or climb it, or travel through the streams.
• 55:04
  we do: In all honesty, yes, people learn to see Shenandoah differently once they step outside of their car and walk through big meadows and look at the ecosystems there and how all of this works together. I mean, just get out from your car and dare to step off the trail. Dare to step off the main road. Bilbo Baggins, I think, says, "Who knows where we might be swept off to? So it's pretty cool.
• 55:25
  we do: Dare to do that.
• 55:28
  we do: What's something about the mountains that you wish more people understood?
• 55:32
  we do: Don't take it for granted. These mountains at one time were owned by people. The mountains now are owned by every single American.
• 55:40
  we do: We should not even consider for a nanosecond privatizing these resources again, or being told how they need to be developed, or why should they be developed.
• 55:48
  we do: Yes, I believe in forest stewardship and all that sort of good stuff, but I think we really need to be aware of the fact that these are truly gifts, and we should treat them like gifts.
• 56:01
  we do: If someone has one weekend in Shenandoah and wants to learn something new, where should they begin?
• 56:07
  we do: I would start by going. In all honesty, I would go to Big Meadows and walk around Big Meadows. Call me for an interpretive hike around Big Meadows. Oh my God. To see those ecosystems in the history-that is a upland wetland. That's been an upland wetland for 12,000 years. Dolly Sods. Everybody thinks upland wetlands in this area. Dolly Sods. Dolly Sods is great, but Dolly Sods was forested until about 200 years ago. Big Meadows has been a meadow for 12,000 years-that's pretty damn awesome.
• 56:40
  we do: That's amazing when you really think about it. It's a long, long time, and Big Meadows is absolutely my favorite place in the park. I think I was just talking about this in an episode over the summer because I had been up there in July, and I talked about how it is maybe the most underrated part of the park. People come for the views and the overlooks and the waterfalls and you know all the different features, but they overlook what I think is the most beautiful part of the park.
• 57:05
  we do: The adventures in big meadows are of the micro scale. You get down on your hands and knees and you look at those tiny little mosses, and those mosses are breaking down rock 24 hours a day, and they have been you know since time began, they're breaking down rock and creating soil, and then you go down and you look at the ferns and you look at the the mafic fin, which is the wetland in the middle, and you look at the plant communities and the fact that you know you've got plants there. This is the only one of the only places they grow in the in the lower 48. I use the word magical a lot. It's so magical when you take the time to go out and look. I mean, really look.
• 57:43
  we do: It's true. You you do have to really pay attention, and you start to see how many different types of wildflowers and plants and everything interacting and working together. And you've got wildlife moving through there all the time. And then when the sun goes down, the stars are just incredible.
• 58:00
  we do: Right. Always tell people we do a series of twilight hikes in the in the summer up there, and I always tell people is I'm the luckiest guy in the world to lead these hikes because every two weeks the meadow changes color. You know, dominant flowers change. You know, from your early season goldens, from the golden ragwort to the flour poisons, the whites to the violets of the of the milkweeds, and then back to you know the woodland sunflower, and and then you've got the berries, and you've got the wild strawberries, and the huckleberries, and the blueberries, and the dewberries, and the blackberries, and then you have the apples, you know the apples. Gosh, no place in the lowlands this year has apples because it frosted down here. They grew apples up in the mountains because the cold air would sink. The apple trees up in Shenandoah are absolutely laden with apples this year. The blossoms didn't freeze like they did in the lowlands. Truly amazing. It's oh, there's there's the magic. I know it's so hard to describe to somebody how magical it really is, and now that we're talking about it, I've got a trip coming up in in two days out of state, and I'm ready to cancel it and go to Shenandoah instead. I feel like I missed the place already.
• 59:13
  we do: After all these years of guiding people through the mountains.
• 59:17
  we do: What still gets you excited about going outside?
• 59:21
  we do: I'm 70 years old. I'm still traipsing up and down the mountains with 20 year olds and stuff. I want to do this the day I die. I've got people tomorrow.
• 59:26
  we do: I'm taking hiking, and they're from Texas or someplace. I had a woman here last week from Ethiopia. I have people from all over the world come and to to talk about this, and for them just have their eyes just open-it's like you know somebody's peeled away the scales from their eyes because this is real life. This is some story on a book or on TV or something other. This is real life, and to see that connection between ecosystems occur between you know the exposure or the fresh, cool air, or whatever it is, to see that, I can't tell you how wonderful that is for me. And you know, I experience it all over again through them.
• 1:00:09
  we do: I've got goosebumps just now thinking about it.
• 1:00:11
  we do: Do you want to tell people where they can learn more about Shenandoah Mountain Guides?
• 1:00:16
  we do: I mean, they can look it up.
• 1:00:16
  we do: Shenandoah Mountain Guide.
• 1:00:20
  we do: everything we do, I mean, we have these people from Ethiopia come word of mouth. So I mean, it's better that way. I don't.
• 1:00:26
  we do: I'm not an advertiser. I never have. No, you definitely are not. I know you were like, I don't need. I don't need to come on your podcast for more for more business. I'm good.
• 1:00:37
  we do: I'm I'm honored. I'm thrilled, but um, I mean, I just want to share passion. I just that's all I care about is sharing passion.
• 1:00:43
  we do: Yeah, and you meet some interesting people. You've told me about some really interesting folks that you take out on the trail because people trust you.
• 1:00:48
  we do: They know you and they trust you. So when a big important person comes into town, you're the one that they call.
• 1:00:55
  we do: Exactly. We've almost killed the British ambassador, yeah, yeah. You should just when you're when you're retired, you should write a book on all of that.
• 1:01:06
  we do: Yeah.
• 1:01:09
  we do: Well, I will link Shenandoah Mountain Guides in the show notes.
• 1:01:12
  we do: Let me know when this comes out because I've got my grandson. He said he's really into podcast now. He's sick. And I said,"Yeah, I've got to do a podcast.
• 1:01:17
  we do: He said, "What? He's like,"That's so cool. He's so excited for this. Well, but it is so cool, Andy. He's right.
• 1:01:22
  we do: It is. I'm thrilled, Andy. Do you have any final words of encouragement for listeners?
• 1:01:30
  we do: Just get out, learn what you're doing, do your homework, and come have fun.
• 1:01:36
  we do: And I also just want to point out that you are are you the only permitted guide to do these activities in Shenandoah National Park?
• 1:01:45
  we do: This year has been a really weird year. I'm not sure who has let their permits expire and who has not. I know I've only run and I've only been only seen me when we're out there in years past. I've seen other organizations. I'm not sure if they've just let it go or not because you know to go climbing in Shenandoah, you got to you know you got to go out of your way a little bit, and it's not as convenient as the gym or Great Falls or something like that. So I really don't know if anybody else. I know there are others like I've got a real good friend, Lester Zook, you know Wild Gut Adventures, great guy.
• 1:02:16
  we do: He does.
• 1:02:16
  we do: We just talked about him in the last episode. I did an episode about Harrisonburg, and he came.
• 1:02:20
  we do: Oh, good. Yeah, just great friends. You know, we've all got sons, and and just he's a great guy. But I haven't even seen him in Shenandoah this year, so I don't know. I know he goes to Hidden Rocks a lot.
• 1:02:33
  we do: Oh yes, that was one of the hikes that we talked about in Waterfall Mountain. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The only reason I bring that up is because I want people to realize that a permit is required for guiding with these activities, and I would not want somebody to find themselves in a situation where they think they have hired a professional guide, and then they find out that guide doesn't have a permit. So you have a permit, and that's a very important thing to have insurance, and I'm also the trainer for you know the trainer for the Park Service too. So I teach you know I teach a lot of the stuff that Park staff.
• 1:03:05
  we do: That's that makes you just so cool, Andy. You're just I don't know about that.
• 1:03:10
  we do: I mean I I love doing it. It's just it's you know it's what I'm on Earth really is. That's why I feel so lucky because I feel like I am one of the few people in the world who really has discovered exactly what they're on Earth for.
• 1:03:22
  we do: Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge about all of these activities of Shenandoah National Park. I do hope that people visit your site, and if they are interested in any of these courses or these experiences or these adventures with you, that they reach out to you with any questions or to register. I've done these adventures with you. I've had an absolute blast. My friend Tracy keeps wanting to come back again and again. She's like, if you ever go out with Andy, you have to take me. It's now just become understood that she gets invited.
• 1:03:53
  we do: Now, are you serious about wanting to do White Oak? If you if we get it up in a couple of weeks.
• 1:03:57
  we do: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Of course.
• 1:04:00
  we do: We're going to be a wetsuit.
• 1:04:00
  we do: We'll need wetsuits.
• 1:04:02
  we do: Yeah. That's the only thing that makes me a little nervous. I hate wetsuits. I mean, I'm okay in them, but I'm not going to be cold. Yeah. Yeah. But hey, you know what? If that's what it takes, then let's do it.
• 1:04:14
  we do: Kevin Moses wants to go also, and you know Kevin.
• 1:04:17
  we do: Ah, Kevin's been a guest on this podcast before. He did the episode about waterfalls of Shenandoah National Park, and he's he's a character. He's a lot of fun. He's retired.
• 1:04:27
  we do: I was just talking with him this afternoon, and I'm getting loaned him a bunch of climbing gear to take his Boy Scouts climbing this weekend. But he wants to go cascading down White Oak, maybe in October. So if we can see if we can make it work.
• 1:04:41
  we do: Yeah, well, definitely let me know the dates because I got a lot of traveling for this podcast to do. So I would have to block that off on my calendar.
• 1:04:48
  we do: Okay, no worries.
• 1:04:50
  we do: All right, Andy. Again, thank you again for being a guest. I can't wait to see you out on the trail again.
• 1:04:55
  we do: Sounds great.
• 1:04:56
  we do: All right, adventure on.