Latest / Early Edition with Ryan Bridge / Erica Stanford and Ginny Andersen: National and Labour's Education Spokespeople on curriculums, fundamentals, learning support

Transcript

Erica Stanford and Ginny Andersen: National and Labour's Education Spokespeople on curriculums, fundamentals, learning support · Early Edition with Ryan Bridge

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  Speaker 1: News Talk ZB. Election is just around the corner. We
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  Speaker 1: have the education spokespeople from our two major parties on
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  Speaker 1: the show this morning. Erica Stanford from National. Good morning.
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  Speaker 1: Also joining us, Ginny Anderson from Labour. Good morning to you, Ginny.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning, Ryan.
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  Speaker 1: So I thought we would start. Are you happy, Ginny, currently?
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  Speaker 1: Are you happy with the way and what children are
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  Speaker 1: being taught? Are we teaching the right things? Are we
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  Speaker 1: doing good by them?
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  Speaker 2: In general, we're comfortable where things are at, but we
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  Speaker 2: want to continue to make sure we make good progress
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  Speaker 2: and that it's being delivered in a way that reaches
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  Speaker 2: every learner. We know that not all children learn the same,
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  Speaker 2: and the last thing we want is a one-size-fits-all approach.
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  Speaker 2: So as long as we are being adaptable enough to
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  Speaker 2: our kids' needs, we're pleased to keep going.
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  Speaker 1: Erica?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, well, that's really nice to hear, because that's not
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  Speaker 3: what we've been hearing for the last three years. You know,
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  Speaker 3: we've just put out a most incredible new curriculum, and
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  Speaker 3: Labour have said that they're going to slow it down.
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  Speaker 3: We've seen some amazing results with English and maths so far. Really,
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  Speaker 3: really good improvements and achievement for the first time in
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  Speaker 3: a long time, thanks to our reforms. And next year,
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  Speaker 3: we've got social science and science about to hit our classrooms.
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  Speaker 3: Really knowledge rich, excellent curriculum areas, but Labour want to
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  Speaker 3: slow them down. So Ginny's on the one hand saying, hey,
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  Speaker 3: it's all going great, but actually their whole policy is
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  Speaker 3: defined by tearing everything down.
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  Speaker 1: Do you accept that, Ginny? Do you accept what Erica
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  Speaker 1: Stanford is saying, that we are starting to see fruit
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  Speaker 1: being born?
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  Speaker 2: We are seeing it in some ways, but it's been
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  Speaker 2: really unfortunate that Erica's been the sort of minister that's
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  Speaker 2: used data incorrectly. She's continually misrepresented data to tell a
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  Speaker 2: story that she wants to tell, not to actually represent
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  Speaker 2: how our kids are doing. And when she politicises education
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  Speaker 2: like that, no one really wins. She might feel like
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  Speaker 2: she's winning, but at the end of the day, our
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  Speaker 2: kids don't win.
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  Speaker 3: Every single one of the independent pieces of research that
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  Speaker 3: have come in has showed an improvement, whether that's PAT results,
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  Speaker 3: whether that's Curriculum Insights, whether that's PISA, whether that's our
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  Speaker 3: phonics checks. Every single thing has gone up. And the
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  Speaker 3: way I'm representing the data is the way that it
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  Speaker 3: is provided to me by the Ministry of Education. So
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  Speaker 3: Jenny's making a big, bold claim about the Ministry misrepresenting
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  Speaker 3: data there.
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  Speaker 1: I want to ask a couple of specifics.
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  Speaker 2: Can I just respond on that one point? It's been
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  Speaker 2: really interesting to see the international data, the OECD data,
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  Speaker 2: that Erica pointed to that New Zealand has seen an
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  Speaker 2: improvement in science, which is great, but her curriculum that
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  Speaker 2: she's introduced isn't taught until next year, yet she's still
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  Speaker 2: trying to claim that her changes were the ones behind
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  Speaker 2: our kids improving. So it's good our kids are improving,
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  Speaker 2: but she shouldn't point to her reforms that haven't even
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  Speaker 2: kicked in as a result of that.
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  Speaker 1: I want to ask a couple of specific questions about
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  Speaker 1: structured literacy and other things. Ginny, because Erica has like
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  Speaker 1: 99 questions of you guys. Is Labour going to keep
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  Speaker 1: the mandatory structured literacy requirements in the English curriculum?
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  Speaker 2: We started and we introduced structured literacy. We think it's
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  Speaker 2: an excellent tool. We know that having the basics of reading, writing,
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  Speaker 2: maths being taught well is an excellent start to a
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  Speaker 2: strong education. But it's important because some kids might need
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  Speaker 2: more than an hour a day and some kids might
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  Speaker 2: not be able to focus for a full hour that
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  Speaker 2: we enable the school system to have that level of flexibility.
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  Speaker 1: So not mandatory. Erica, why does it need to be mandatory? Well,
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  Speaker 1: hang on a minute.
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  Speaker 3: She didn't answer the question. You asked her whether or
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  Speaker 3: not keeping structured literacy mandatory and she deviated into an
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  Speaker 3: hour a day. This is the problem. You saw Hipkins
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  Speaker 3: last week with Heather de Plessis-Allen. Wouldn't answer the question.
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  Speaker 3: We have mandated structured literacy. And by the way, I
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  Speaker 3: just want to correct a wee fallacy there. Structured literacy
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  Speaker 3: was developed under a national government through the National Science Beta.
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  Speaker 1: It was not. It was not.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, good. I'm going to do another lovely little video
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  Speaker 3: on you, my friend, because it was developed under the
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  Speaker 3: Beta Start literacy approach. It was developed under... Better Start
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  Speaker 3: Science Challenge in 2016.
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  Speaker 1: Scratch literacy was started under Labour.
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  Speaker 3: Hang on a minute.
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  Speaker 1: This is really important because she keeps saying this and
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  Speaker 1: so does Hopkins. I don't think people are interested in
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  Speaker 1: finding out who came up with what. So the question
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  Speaker 1: is whether it's mandatory. Ginny, are you saying you would
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  Speaker 1: take away it being mandatory?
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  Speaker 2: We would make sure it's stolen right throughout the curriculum.
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  Speaker 2: It's a fundamental part of how people are being taught.
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  Speaker 2: But in some cases, there are children who can't focus
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  Speaker 2: for a whole hour.
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  Speaker 1: That's not an hour a day, Ginny.
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  Speaker 3: Ginny, it's not an hour a day.
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  Speaker 1: You said it was an hour a day.
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  Speaker 3: It's not an hour a day. He's asking you a
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  Speaker 3: very simple question. Will you mandate... So you're saying it's
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  Speaker 3: not an hour a day? Will you mandate structured literacy?
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  Speaker 3: Stop trying to muddy the waters.
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  Speaker 1: So you're just saying now it's not an hour a day.
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  Speaker 1: Is that what you said?
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  Speaker 3: Ginny... Answer the question.
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  Speaker 2: Is it an hour a day or not?
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  Speaker 3: Will you mandate structured literacy? It's a different topic.
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  Speaker 2: Structured literacy will remain in place the way it is now,
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  Speaker 2: but if some children can't.
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  Speaker 1: Focus for a whole hour.
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  Speaker 3: It's nothing to do with.
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  Speaker 1: An hour a day. It's nothing to do with an
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  Speaker 1: hour a day. Did you just say that? Well, they
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  Speaker 1: are different things.
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  Speaker 3: Structured literacy is nothing to do with an hour a day.
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  Speaker 1: So to be clear... Really? Well, I thought it was.
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  Speaker 3: Well, herein lies the problem.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Erica's just said it's not about an hour a day.
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  Speaker 1: It's not about an hour a day.
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  Speaker 2: She said it first.
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  Speaker 3: Here's the problem, Ryan. What she's essentially saying is children
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  Speaker 3: learn by looking at the picture and guessing the word.
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  Speaker 3: and using the context to guess the word. Not at all.
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  Speaker 1: That's not what I said.
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  Speaker 3: Well, how else are children going to be learning to
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  Speaker 3: read and write?
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  Speaker 2: They learn through structured literacy. They learn through structured literacy.
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  Speaker 3: And only structured literacy.
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  Speaker 2: But you're saying now they don't have to do an
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  Speaker 2: hour a day. That's what you just said.
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  Speaker 1: No, it's not. They're different things. Ginny, can I just
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  Speaker 1: jump in here and just ask, because both of you,
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  Speaker 1: it's a very tribal education. You've got unions who are,
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  Speaker 1: you know, Labour, you obviously have a close relationship with
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  Speaker 1: the unions, and I know that you want to support
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  Speaker 1: them and their views. And then you've got on the
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  Speaker 1: other side, National, who now in a lot of polls
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  Speaker 1: is coming ahead in voter preferences on education. Is there
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  Speaker 1: any way you guys could work closer together to make
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  Speaker 1: this less of a yo-yo, a bouncing ball at election time, Erica?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I tried that. I texted Willow-Jean Prime and then
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  Speaker 3: I emailed her three times to the point where I
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  Speaker 3: had to copy in the... Leader of the Opposition as
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  Speaker 3: well to try and get an answer. And then she
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  Speaker 3: came back and said, no, I'm sorry, I don't want
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  Speaker 3: to deal with you. By that point in time, most
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  Speaker 3: of the work for the new NCEA had already been done.
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  Speaker 3: I've reached out to Ginny. We've had a meeting, despite
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  Speaker 3: what the Leader of the Opposition said the other day.
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  Speaker 3: I have tried really hard. But there are a lot
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  Speaker 3: of things I think we hopefully agree on. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: it sounds like we have got to a point where
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  Speaker 3: they have agreed that the mandate for structured literacy will
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  Speaker 3: stay in place. The issue we've now got is they
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  Speaker 3: don't like the twice yearly assessments, they don't like an
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  Speaker 3: hour a day, and they want to keep the failing
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  Speaker 3: NCEA in place. And those things are core things that
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  Speaker 3: are part of the way we're going to raise achievement
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  Speaker 3: and close equity.
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  Speaker 1: In this country. Jenny, do you want to respond to that?
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  Speaker 2: I think there are some good areas where we can
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  Speaker 2: make common ground. And I think one of those particularly
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  Speaker 2: is learning support. So we know there's a really big
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  Speaker 2: amount of children increasing who need extra support for a
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  Speaker 2: whole range of reasons. And I think that's one of
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  Speaker 2: the biggest challenges going forward for the education system. So
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  Speaker 2: for me personally, I would really like to continue to
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  Speaker 2: make good progress both in the same direction on making
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  Speaker 2: sure parents and students get the appropriate learning support in place.
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  Speaker 1: All right. Hey, looking forward to these social media videos
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  Speaker 1: that are going to come out today.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. I'll be watching eagerly.
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  Speaker 1: Well, that's the problem.
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  Speaker 3: She makes these claims and then can't stand them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you make such great videos. They're beautiful. We
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  Speaker 2: love them.
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  Speaker 3: Well, they do get 200,000 views. It's quite good.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, great comments.
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  Speaker 3: The key for me in education is you have to
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  Speaker 3: go in with a clear plan, right? That's what we
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  Speaker 3: did in 2023. We came out with our six-point plan
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  Speaker 3: to raise achievement, close the equity gap, and create a
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  Speaker 3: world-leading education system. And it has worked. And our policies
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  Speaker 3: this election are to continue to build on that. And
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  Speaker 3: if you go and look at Labour's election manifesto, what
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  Speaker 3: you see is we're going to kick most things to
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  Speaker 3: a working group that we're going to set up, an
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  Speaker 3: advisory working group. and then stop and pause a whole
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  Speaker 3: lot of other things. That is essentially how you would
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  Speaker 3: sum up Labour's education.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'd just like to respond.
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  Speaker 1: I'd just like to respond to that.
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  Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest problems is Erica is
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  Speaker 2: now under investigation by the Ombudsman because she and her
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  Speaker 2: office have been avoiding releasing information.
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  Speaker 1: So what I'd love to see.
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  Speaker 2: if she did continue, was to be greater transparency and
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  Speaker 2: to be honest with parents about all the information, about
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  Speaker 2: who actually wrote the curriculum, who actually did.
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  Speaker 3: All that work.
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  Speaker 2: And so how she hides information from parents. And I
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  Speaker 2: think that's really sad. Where's your vision for education?
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  Speaker 1: I feel like a teacher in a classroom right now
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  Speaker 1: and telling the naughty kids to be quiet. Ginny Anderson
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  Speaker 1: from Labour, Erica Stanford from National. For more from Early
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Edition with Ryan Bridge, listen live to News Talk ZB
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: from 5 a.m. weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.