Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / How to Baby-Proof Your Relationship: Navigating a new marital landscape

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How to Baby-Proof Your Relationship: Navigating a new marital landscape · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So tomorrow, so Emily, tell me about this subreddit.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this subreddit is called our slash Beyond the Bump,
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: and I have to say I'm a little obsessed with it.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I have a very kind of love hate relationship. As
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: far as subreddits about pregnancy and parenting go. This one's
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: not for like regular moms. This one's for like cool moms.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Is the one for regular moms, just like the Bump.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Well that's that's an app actually, Okay, No, like the
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: regular one is like our slash Pregnancy or our slash
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Toddlers or whatever. But this one is like, you know,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: moms who are ready to like really engage in like
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: real talk about what it's really like. And what that
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: amounts to is these really kind of intense emotional confessionals
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: about things that have been really hard. And I think
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: that people feel like they can kind of hide behind
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: the anonymy of Reddit and engage in this community of
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: people who are like here for it, and they end
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: up talking about really traumatic birth experiences and people will
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: jump in and like hold them and share theirs or
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: you know, like those those can be pretty powerful. But
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: then also people are like going off on their mother
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: in laws, and you know, my mother in law like
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: fed my kid at the wrong time and like did
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: this thing that wasn't really that unsafe, but it was
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: like a little unsafe. Should I cut her out of
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: my life?
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: My mother in law gave my child a honey nut cheerio.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: Should I revoke her access forever or just for a year?
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: Exactly?
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't know how many people are just able
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: to give up babysitters like this. But all right, So
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: that's our slash beyond the Bump, and I find myself
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: quite moved by it and also really kind of repelled it.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: But then there is the weekly pinned thread where people
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: complain about their partners, and if you actually search in
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: the little search bar for hate plus husband, you get
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: pages and pages of posts with the title of I
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: hate my husband. You guys, I really think I hate
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: my husband? Why do I hate my husband? Is it
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: normal to hate my husband this much? After having a baby?
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: Since having a baby, I hate my husband. I think
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: I hate my husband. I'm starting to hate my husband.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: I hate my husband. PSA, I hate your husband. Well
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: that's different.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: Being coming a mother taught me how to love myself,
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: and now I hate my husband.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of marriages that are really
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: on the brink, Like you'd almost think that they're all
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: on the brink by going to this subreddit and it's
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: like these are the posts like every other day, and
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: you know, like I said, the anonymity of it definitely
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: opens people up, and I think that it's kind of
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: nice that there's a space for that. I can't quite
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: tell if this is kind of for clout or you know,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: kind of misery loves company, or if everyone here is
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: really really struggling. And you know, it's the Internet, so
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: it's probably a combination of both.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: My husband is sleeping and I hate him.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, I relate to that. This is parent data. I'm
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Emily Oster.
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: Reddit has a tendency to exacerbate real world problems, but
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that these problems are not real.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: And when you look at the data, it is true.
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: That after people have kids, marital satisfaction declines. Having a
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: baby drastically changes everything in your partnership that was familiar,
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: that was predictable, that you got used to, and some
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: of those are the reasons you got into their relationship
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: in the first place. That's the reality of having kids,
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: and as much as we love our kids, it can
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: be an incredible shock to the system. There were dates, nights,
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: there were lazy Sunday mornings in bed, and now there
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: are feedings and diaper changes, feeling touched out, packing school
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: lunches the night before or at five point forty five
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: in the morning. To quote Ethan Hawke's character from before Sunset,
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: we used to be in love. Now we're roommates who
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: run a daycare together. There are things that bring us
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: together in ways we could not imagine a crazy amount
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: of shared love. But there's also a crazy amount of
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: shared details and shared responsibilities and.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: Less money and more work. And it's a.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: Tall order to ask your relationship to just adapt to
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: something like that. A lot of couples, most couples struggle,
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: and they find themselves on beyond the bump, explaining that
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: their husband's sleeping and they hate them. But going to
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: Reddit is actually not the best place to solve these problems,
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: and for many, probably most couples, this issue is not hopeless.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: And that's where today's guest comes in. Doctor Ya L.
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: Schoenbrun is a clinical psychologist and author, a researcher who
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: focuses on the science and data behind healthier, happier relationships,
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: and she's here to babyproof your relationship. In this conversation,
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: we talk about the kinds of conversations couples need to
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: be willing to have to actually be heard.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: We talk about the difference between.
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: Understanding conversations and problem solving conversations. We also talk about
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: when is a good time to have hard conversations and
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: when isn't, notably when you are angry and tired.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: We talk about how to babyproof your relationship.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: Before the baby arrives, and then we get into some
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: lightning round specific issues about what can strain couples, what
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: can overcome the strain, and how we can try to
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: show up as our best selves not just for our kids,
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: but for each other. And yes, if you fall along
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: in my marriage, we will be discussing the conflict over
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: the dishwasher loading after the break. Doctor Yeah, Elle shoon Brun,
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: Doctor yeah, l Shoon Brun. Thanks for being here again.
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: So excited to join you. Thanks for having me.
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: I'm very excited to talk about everybody's favorite topic, which
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: is that you will hate your partner.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: After you have children.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: If there's one like accepted truth about marriage and child marrying.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: It's that after kids, your partner is a loser.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: So you can see that, you know, from people's everyday
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: experience from Reddit, but also we see this in the data.
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: So actually there is a fair amount of data showing
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: the marital happiness declines when people have kids, especially in
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: the first year.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: But even though people like to talk about this and
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: make jokes about it, actually it's not great.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: And the goal here is to give people some tips
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: to make that happen less or at least talk about
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: why it happens.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: So we're going to do that.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: We're going to be productive and not just talk about Wait,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: let's start. Do you have a partner?
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: I have a husband?
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: You have a husband, and what can you just just
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: so we set the stage, can you just.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: Tell me one thing that he does that annoys you?
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: Oh? Why do I begin? No, I'm just kidding, he is.
• 7:42
  Speaker 5: I actually was just recently talking to a marital researcher
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: who had this lovely metaphor of some of us are
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: ferns who need a whole lot of watering. We're like rainforests,
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: and we just need so much attention, right in the
• 7:54
  Speaker 5: form of watering in the form of attention, and so
• 7:57
  Speaker 5: I am definitely a fern and he is more of
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: a succulent, so a difference, and so he's kind of
• 8:02
  Speaker 5: off doing his thing, and I really need a whole
• 8:04
  Speaker 5: lot of attention, especially if I'm sort of putting out
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: energy in caring for the kids and caring for my
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: patients and doing my writing work. And what he needs
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: is like independent time to because he's a classic introvert.
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: So it annoys me that when he's stressed he needs
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: time away.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: What is one thing you really like about him?
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: So this is a thing that so in addition to
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: my background as a researcher, and I also do marital
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: treatment a lot. And one of the things I often
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: think about is that any couple can make strides, can
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: make gains if they are willing to work on it.
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: So he is always willing to work on things with me,
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: and I think that is so critical. And it's kind
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: of like a relational growth mindset that it almost doesn't
• 8:48
  Speaker 5: matter where you begin, so long as you have a
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: partner who's willing to collaborate with you and getting to
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: a place that works better for the both of you.
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: Recognizing that it will never be perfect, and he is
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: definitely in that camp.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: I love that. I was going to go in like
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: a much more like specific direction with mine. Yours are
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: much better.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: I was going to be like, I like the way
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: he loads the dishwasher, but I don't like it. I
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: don't like did he snores? Those are yeah?
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: No, I like, I like your snoring thing. And that
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: actually comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room too,
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: because it causes people to sleep in separate beds, which
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: causes a lot more distance because they don't have that
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: time together. How do you guys handle the snoring? It is?
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: Actually it doesn't most of the time. I can just
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: I just sleep through it. Although in this in the
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: spirit of growth mindset, I did suggest that we get
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: some breathewrte strips and he said he would consider that,
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: and so that that's like the next growth mindset experience.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: But actually, most of the time, I just he's not
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: that bad, so you do kind of get used to it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 5: I think that that is also a good attitude and
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: has some growth mindset embodied in it.
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: Growth mindset. That's the theme for today. Okay, so let's
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: start with you. You know you've written some stuff for
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: us on this, and I want to sort of talk
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: through some of these productive approaches that people can take
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: to try to address these declines.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: But let's just start with, like, what do you see
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: you treat people on this?
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Is?
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: What is the common pattern of sort of post child
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: bearing marital stuff?
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well so is it is one of these really
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: common research findings. And it's certainly, as you said, something
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: we see a lot on Reddit, we see articles about
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: it that there is a precipitous drop in marital satisfaction
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: after babies enter the scene. The thing that I wrote
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: one piece about for parent Data that I think isn't
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: important finding is that not all couples go through this
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: precipitous drop, and so you're not doomed. If you're thinking
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: about having children, your marriage is not doomed. And if
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: you've had a precipitous drop, your marriage is also not doomed.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: So there's lots of variability, and we can look at
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: the averages and there is an average job. But some couples,
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: and in fact the many couples do just find they're
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: sort of a stressful period, but they come together and
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: they cope as collaborators and that's great, and for a
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: lot of folks that change, those new stressors lack of sleep,
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: more demands on us really cause a fracturing. And so
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: one of the things to think about is before you
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: have kids to try to invest some time and energy
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: in building up your relationship or in preparing for the
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: transition as collaborators. And so a lot of the interventions
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: that have been tested with this transition of partnership to
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: co parents look at intervening in the lead up, so
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: helping people to strengthen the relationship before kids and then
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: helping them to figure out how to cope better after
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: the arrival of kids. And so there are a variety
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: of ways to intervene in both time pere, So can.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: We talk about the intervening before And you know, I
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: think is as sort of scientists and researchers, we talk
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: about this idea like we're going to intervene, but what
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: does that mean practically? Like what do they do in
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: these interventions and how do I know they work?
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so there are randomized interventions looking at how people
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: can build up skills and so what does that actually
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: look like? I Mean, one thing to talk about it
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: is like what does actual couples therapy look like when
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: I have a couple who comes in and is telling me,
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: you know, we really don't see eye to eye on
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: how to manage the nighttime feedings, or on who does
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: the diapers, or on who's going to make a transition
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: in how they navigate their work life now that we
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: have children to take care of. So what does that
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: look like? A lot of it just looks like conversations
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: and helping people talk things through because a lot of
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: people don't know how to talk things through or avoid
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: it because it's kind of uncomfortable. These are difficult topics
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: to encounter. There's a lot of anxiety about what each
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: person wants and doesn't want. Sometimes there's a history of
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: conflict that people are worried about, kind of tripping up
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: and setting off a minefield. And so in the protected
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: environment of a couple's therapy room, you have somebody who's
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: kind of a mediator, who can structure things, who can
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: make sure that each person gets heard and feels heard.
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: And then there's some problem solving, collaborative problem solving, so
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: one of the I can give some of the communication
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: tips that are really helpful for a lot of couples.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: If that's yeah, I think that would be I think
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: it'll be useful.
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So in the couple's Therapy one oh one Communication Tips.
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: One of the most basic things that I tell people
• 13:35
  Speaker 5: is that we want to separate conversations into two distinct types.
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: So one is an understanding conversation, where the goal is
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: to have each person feel a bit better understood as
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: a speaker and to have each listener understand a little
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: bit better. And so the goal of an understanding conversation
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: is to improve understanding. The second kind of conversation is
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: a problem solving conversation, where the goal is to solve
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: a problem or come to a decision together or negotiate something.
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: And that one is something that people just kind of understand.
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: And actually, when it comes to having new children, we
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: almost always want to do the problem solving, want to
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: fix it, Like we're exhausted. There's so many stressors we
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: need to figure out, like what the baby's going to eat,
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: who's going to take care of it? You know what
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: that rash is, And so we just drop into default
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: mode of like problem solving is what we need to do.
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: But often what we what would actually be more effective
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: is to do understanding first, and we want to separate
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: them out because when one person is trying to have
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: an understanding conversation of like, I'm super stressed out this
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: exema on the baby is really freaking me out because
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: I'm worried it's going to lead to something different, and
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: the other person steps in and says, well, you need
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: to call the doctor immediately, then the anxiety doesn't get addressed.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: And so by making suret and really clarifying each person
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: what kind of a conversation do I want to have,
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: we can kind of align on the communication goals. And
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: when people are aligned on communication goals, I can think
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: of like it's a rowboat, Like you can row in
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: the same direction. If you're not aligned, you're rowing in
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: different directions and you're just kind of going in circles
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: and it's super frustrating for both people.
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: There's an interesting parallel to the kinds of conversations one
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: we'll eventually have with a teenager, where this distinction between like,
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: what are you hoping to get out of this conversation
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: and do you just want me to listen and hear
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: what you're saying, or do you want me to help
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: you fix it? Like, sometimes I will start conversations with
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: the teenager like is this a situation in which you're
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: looking for advice or do you just want me to
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: hear what you're saying, And by like voicing that at
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: the top, it's like, Okay, which conversation are we hoping
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: to have? Because if I'm trying to have the conversation
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: with my partner, I'm just like I'm so tired and
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: I'm exhausted, and the baby's pooping every twenty three times
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: in the middle of the night, and like I just
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: feel like crap, And you just want them to be like, wow, yeah,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: that's a lot of poop.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: I hear that you.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: Don't like that much poop, And then they're like, well,
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: here are some tips I read on the internet about
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: how to get your baby to poopless.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Like that's not home.
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so it feels invalidating for the person who
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: just wants the understanding. And so the common example that
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: I give to couples that I work with is if
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: I had a really crappy day in office and I
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: go home and I tell my husband, oh, I just
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: feel like I'm not a good therapist or not a
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: good researcher, not a good writer. And he says, well,
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: you've been saying that a lot lately. Maybe you should
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: go get some more training or supervision or consultation. And
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: I was just looking for understanding of like, you poor thing,
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: but you're so great, I'm going to feel criticized, right,
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: And then I tell him, oh, you're such an unsupportive partner.
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: And he had come in trying to be helpful and
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: thoughtful and listening and responsive, and I'm telling him he's
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: a crappy partner. Now he feels criticized and invalidated. And
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: so here's this conversation where we both entered into this
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: space with good intentions, and both people are feeling really rotten.
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: And it is true, Emily, to your point that a
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: very similar kind of dynamic can happen with our kids,
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: It can happen with work colleagues, can happen with good
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: friends and family members. So this distinction of what kind
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: of a conversation do I want to have is one
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: that's really helpful in all sorts of relationships, and definitely
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: in our partnerships, just to have that sense of, you know,
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: if I know in advance, what kind of a conversation
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: I'm looking for. Can I ask for it from the
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: outset so that we don't get off on the wrong track.
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: Or if in the middle of a conversation, I'm noticing
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: that I'm feeling like this isn't going quite right and
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: I'm not aligning and I'm getting kind of frustrated, can
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: I sort of point out, Hey, I think I'm looking
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: for this kind of conversation, and you're maybe assuming that
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: I want that kind of conversation. Can we negotiate even
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: what kind of conversation we're having and maybe start in
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: one place, start by having an understanding conversation before we
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: move to the problem solving. And I will say, just
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: as a quick tip, it is almost always useful to
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: do the understanding conversation first before you do the problem solving,
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: even if it's very obvious that you want to do
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: the problem solving, even if it feels pretty straightforward, just
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: to do a quick little understanding, just so that you
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: make sure a you're both ready to solve a pro
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: that you're solving the same problem, or see that you're
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: solving the same parts of the same problem. Because often
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: problems that seem really obvious and simple have multiple parts,
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: and different parts matter to each of you. And so
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: if you can just sort of have that understanding piece
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: first so that you align on what it is and
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: how it is that you're going to do the problem solving,
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: that can make things go so much more smoothly.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: Some of this is about practice and habit, and I
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: think that's you know, the sort of discussion about like
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: why would you do this before you have a baby.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: There will be a moment after you have the baby
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: when you are tired, and it is not a time
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: that changing your habits and how you interact with someone
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: is cognitively challenging. And when we are asleep deprived, we
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: are not as up for cognitive challenges. And so this
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: sort of there's a little bit of a of a
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: kind of push. I would say, people say, well, everything
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: is going, everything's going fine, like we really like each other,
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: like our marriages is great.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: But the investment in having.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: A habit to address how to have harder conversations so
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: you are doing that before you are exhausted. I mean
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: that's part of the kind of pre almost like like
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: pre work, right, that's the pre work before the meeting
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: or you do, it's the pre read you should have.
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: The pre read it's the pre baby prep. No, but
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: it's true. I think establishing habits that you're going to
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: do your best to sustain, recognizing that there will be
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: some messiness and some adjustment that is needed once a
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: baby enters the scene is so important. And in fact,
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: one of the studies that I think is really cool
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: that was conducted by a researcher by the name of
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: Brian Doss compared intervention that was focused on preparing people
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: for parenting together and uh intervention that was really just
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: relationship strengthening, and they both helped people to make the
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: transition from being partners to being co parents. So however
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: you're doing it, investing in those bits of maintaining a
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: relationship can really make you more resilient in that transition,
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: because you are going to be more fatigue, you are
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: going to be more stressed out. And so if you
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: have these kind of and there's a number of ways
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: to do it. I mean, one of the things that
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: I really encourage people to do is to have two
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: real brief appointments blocked on your calendar, and one is
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: to do like a marital check in, like how are
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: we doing, how are you doing, what do we need
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: to talk about, what's come up, so that you just
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: have a time in your week. And there's a couple
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: of reasons for this. One is that it's it's you
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: should do.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: This always or after you have kids, like they just
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: generally you should have always should always have a marital
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: check in.
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so you should always have a marital check in,
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: and you should always have a time on your calendar
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: that is time to just enjoy one another, and you know,
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: the enjoy one another after you have babies, maybe like
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: you know, ten minutes before you pass out or you know,
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: five minutes before you have to run in different directions
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: in the morning. But again, it's like the habit of like,
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: let's connect, let's see each other as human beings who
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: I like, you know ideally, who like each other ideally.
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: And the marital check in can be this opportunity or
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: relationship check in if you're not married, can just be
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: an opportunity to talk about things that have been going
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: on and to bring your best selves to have that conversation,
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: because otherwise what happens is people wait until you know
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: the lid is about to come off the boiling pot,
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: and at that point you know, either you're tired or
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: your emotions have hijacked your brain and you're not going
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: to be talking rationally. You're going to say things that
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: you don't mean. The alternative can also happen where people
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: don't want to talk about things, and so they avoid, avoid, avoid,
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: and resentment grows. And in part it's because you don't
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: want to rock the boat, or because things are already
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: so bad you don't want them to really fall apart.
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: And so having this habit of every week we do
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: a check in, there's a beginning to the check in,
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: there's an end, and then we try to pivot and
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: go do other things just gives you an opportunity to
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: not miss out on talking about things before it hits
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: resent or to talk about it before it hits the
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: boiling point in a more thoughtful way.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: And you would separate like the nice time we spent
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: together from the we're doing a marital check in. We
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: have like two appointments, the hard conversation or put you know,
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: the check in appointment and the date.
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I would, although you know I recognize and you
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: know I'm a mother of three, so time is limited.
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: So there's a couple reasons for it, you know. One
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: is that we sometimes like get stuck in logistics mode
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: and then we run out of time to have fun,
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: and I think or we are having fun and we
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: don't really want to talk about logistics. The other is,
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: if you're talking about something that's difficult, it can be
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: hard to pivot to just enjoying one another that said,
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: I do think it's nice to if you can, in
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: your marital check in, try to finish with something positive
• 22:50
  Speaker 5: of life. But here's something that I really appreciate, so
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: that you can do that pivot in a way that
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: feels positive and you don't kind of drag some of
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: the negativity along with you.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: One of the questions I get a lot from people,
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: you know, when you when you talk about this, it
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: makes a lot of sense, and I think probably there
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: are many people who are like, oh, that sounds that
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: sounds reasonable. And one of the pieces of feedback that
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: I get from when I talk about these related issues,
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: when people talk about the work that you've done, is like,
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: my partner will not want to do this, Like I
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: don't think I can get my partner to do this.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: And actually, something someone told me once was, you know,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: these kind of tools are great if you like your partner,
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: But I don't like my partner, and so I could
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: never get them to do this, and I in some
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: ways I thought, of course, if you're already aligned with
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: your partner, then.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe you don't have to do this as much.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: Somehow this feels like it would be most useful when
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: one person is resistant. But you know, what do you
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: tell people if they say, you know, I just can't
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: get my partner to even engage with this kind of questions,
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: meaning for a marital checkup, talking about our relationship going
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: to therapy.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: They're not on it.
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean so one of the interesting research findings
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: is that it takes couples on average six years from
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: the start of identifying like a significant problem before they
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: enter into couple's therapy. And that's not surprising a because
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: people don't have a whole lot of time or resources,
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: and also there's usually half of a couple that isn't
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: particularly interested in couples therapy. But once people get there,
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: there's so much value. And so I do think it's
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: helpful to just talk about, like what to set approach goals.
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: So one of the things that we know from psychological
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: research is that when we set avoid in schools of like,
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm really unhappy and I don't want to leave.
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: I don't want to divorce you, so you better go
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: to couple's therapy with me is not a particularly warm invite, right.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: It feels controlling, It feels like an ultimatum. It doesn't
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: feel particularly appealing to most people to receive an inmity
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: in that way, whereas if you say, you know, we've
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: been having a hard time and what I'd really love
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: to do is get back to a place where we
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: feel good around each other, that feels more appealing to
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: most people. The other thing, and I wrote a piece
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: about this for Parent Data as well, is that it
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: can often feel like one the person who wants to
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: have this kind of a check in is really in
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: an agency undermining position of like, you need to do this, right,
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: I'm so unhappy you need to do this. And what
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: happens when we are told that we absolutely have to
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: do something, whether it's by our parents, so this is
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: also good advice for our teens and toddlers or by
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: our partners, is that there's this thing that psychologists calls
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: psychological reactants, which is we don't want other people to
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: tell us what to do. We want to have agency.
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: This is a fundamental human drive. And so if we
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: invite our partner and we do it in a way
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: that really respects their autonomy, that sort of encourages them
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: to have agency. It's also a lot more likely. So,
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: for example, I have been unhappy in this relationship, I
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: would like to do something, whether it's couple's therapy or
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: just dedicating sometime each week to working on our relationship.
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: What do you think? How would you want to do it?
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: Are there ways that would be more appealing to you
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: and other ways that would be less appealing to you.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: I have lots of ideas. Here are some What kind
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: of ideas do you have that would help us to
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: work on this relationship that seems important to both of us,
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: So to make it positive, to give the other person agency,
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: and to offer lots of different options so that people
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: don't feel backed into a corner. Because when we feel
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: backed into a corner, that's when we get resistant.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: So if we think about the kind of pieces of
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: what sort of hard after childbirth, there's the initial kind
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: of sleep deprivation newborn stage, which is I think hard,
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: partly just because you're tired, but is also somewhat temporary,
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: and I think there are some practical things that one
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: can do that might help that part of this. Then
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: there's this other piece, which continues basically forever, where you
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: may not agree with your partner about how to parent,
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: and I think that's an ongoing source of tension, and
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: it's a place where often like this is the thing
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: we care most about in the world, and neither of
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: us have any idea.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: What we're doing.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: That's like a sort of characteristic of parenting.
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: Like I could not be more engaged in wanting to
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: do this right, and I just am lost in a
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: sea of the Internet and whatever, and I.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Don't know the right choice.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: And if you don't agree with me, if we're both
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: just swimming in an aimless pool of you know, information,
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: maybe we can kind of come together to put something.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: But if I have a strong idea of come to
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: sort of think the right way to discipline is X,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: and my partner's idea is the right way to a
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: discipline is why.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: And like those are not the same.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: Is there a more focused way we could try to
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: work through that kind of specific conflict as opposed to
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: the general like we're tired and everybody feels busy.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Conflict.
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: Yes, So it's a great question, and I just I
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: will say every time I think about those early years.
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: So I have three kids, so I went through early
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: years three times. I was thinking, I don't even remember
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: what I was fighting about with my husband at three am.
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: I just knew that he was wrong and I was furious.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: There was definitely a rock and play sleeper fight that
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: I'm still pretty mad about, but I don't remember who
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: was on what side, or that thing was eventually recalled.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: I don't think that was the source of but I'm
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: definitely I'm still pretty mad.
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, holding resentment totally, totally. Yeah, those middle of the
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: night fights, It's hard to remember the details, but oh
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: there was fury anyway. But to your point that you
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: know we care the most, I don't want to say
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: we care the most. Who knows, but like, we care
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: a whole lot about our kids, and often so to
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: our partners. We hope, and we don't always see eye
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: to eye, and that's kind of the nature of parenting
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: for everyone, because we don't partner up with ourselves, so
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: invariably we will have differences, and sometimes the differences are
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: small enough that it's not so difficult to bridge them.
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: But sometimes the differences are really big and A common
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: one that I see, and this is kind of a
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: broad difference, but I think it comes up in a
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: lot of ways, is like you have one parent who's
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: really more into like discipline, like we need to set
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: for boundaries and say no, and you know, really invite
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: our children to know that there's like a hierarchy and
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: there's you know, respect needs to be important and following
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: the rules needs to be important. And then one parent
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: who leads with like warmth and love, who really like,
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: at the end of the day, all that really matters
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: to me is that my child feels connected and accepted
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: and loved in this unconditional way. And so you can
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: have these differences that really bump up against one another
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: and lots of different situations like it could be sleep training,
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: it could be body training, it could be you know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: the teenager didn't do their homework, and how do you
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: respond to that. So one of the things that I
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: think is important is to start with an understanding conversation
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: before you ever get to problem solving, to really appreciate
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: like why it's important to each person and to really
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: try in the listener mode of hearing your partner explain
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: why whatever the way that they prefer to do is
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: important to them, why that matters to them, Like what
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: is the function of that? And try as hard as
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: you can to listen with an open mind. Because the
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: next thing that I'll say that I know feels untrue
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: when you're sort of in the midst of a fight
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: with somebody who you disagree with, is that the differences
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: between the two of you are probably more of a
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: strength than you realize. And the example that I that
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: I gave of the disciplining versus warmth really gets born
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: out in the literature on rearing children, which is, you know,
• 30:50
  Speaker 5: it's not great to be an authoritarian parent, and it's
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: not great to be a permissive parent. So if you
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: have somebody who leads extremely with discipline, that's more authoritarian,
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: and if you have somebody who leads on the extra
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: damside with love, that can really equate to permissiveness. And
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: what we know is the best kind of parenting is
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: this combined authoritative like a lot of discipline and a
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: lot of love the both. And so if you have
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: a set of parents that leans to one side each
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: each partner leans heavily to one side. Actually together, if
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: they can come together, that's like the best way to
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: do it. And that's often the case, is that the
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: differences that exist between the two of you, they feel
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: like they're in opposition, but actually they're probably quite complimentary.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: And so if you can get to that place of
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: seeing you know, the way that you do it really
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: drives me crazy, but actually it's a nice counterbalance for
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: the way that I might do it. And can we
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: rather than pull to the polls away from each other,
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: can we come together in a way that takes the
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: best of each side. And that is a hard thing
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: to do when you're in the fight. But if you
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: can sort of calm your a magdalah, get to a
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: place where you're being able to be more open and
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: receptive to how somebody does things differently and invite them
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: right as an invitation with lots of options to do
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: the same with you, so that you can pull the
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: best from each perspective, each approach, that can really land
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: you in a much stronger healthier place relationally but also
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: as parents.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I like that it seems hard, it's hard to do.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: In the moment. Sometimes it's easier with a therapist in
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: the office.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: More parent data, including a lightning round about common relationship
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: challenges and how to overcome them after the break. So, yeah,
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: we're going to do a lightning round at the end,
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: which I'm guessing will not be as lightning as I
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: always hope.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: But before we.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: Do that, someone comes and they say, you know, I'm
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: seven months pregnant.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: It's our first kid.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: I want you to tell me, like the three or
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: four things I should do now to prepare such that
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: I have the best chance of not ending up in
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: a lot of conflict with my partner post kid.
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: Well, some of the things are our habits that we
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: already talked about. So one is start a practice of
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: having a relationship check in once a week. It doesn't
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: have to be too long. It can be, you know,
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: fifteen minutes if there's nothing going on, then reinforce what's
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: going well, that's great. And then one time per week
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: where you do something that is fun that is just
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: you guys enjoying one another. The second thing I'll say
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: is create a network of support. So one of the
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: really important pieces of science that I think doesn't get
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: talked about enough. Although Emily I'm so grateful that you
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: talk about it is like this idea of alloparenting. We
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: are not actually evolved to rear children alone. We are
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: evolved to rear children in community. And so you have
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: your partner, but two people is not enough to rear children.
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: They are real time and energy suckers, those little suckers.
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: And they're awesome, they're beautiful, we love them. They are exhausting.
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: And so as much as you can create a support network,
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: join a class even in advance of, you know, people
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: preparing to have babies, because then you know, if you
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: do around the same time, then you'll have a friend
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: in the middle of the night to text with while
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: you're nursing or feeding the baby or changing their diaper.
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: And I will say, just as somebody who had children
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: very far away from extended family, that this is possible
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: to do even if you don't have family nearby, and
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: it's important to do just for sanity's sake. And you know,
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: professional caregivers like daycares like those are all great resources
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: to spiritual classes, spiritual communities classes. So there's so many
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: different ways to really extend your social support network. And
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: then the third thing, and this is something I write
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: about in my book about working parenthood is try to
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: think about the things that are less important that you're
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: willing to do less of during the more intense times
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: in the early months of parenting. So this is the
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: idea of subtracting. So our temptation as humans and as
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: parents is like, add more more and more stuff to
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: my schedule, to my closet, to you know, enrich myself.
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: But it is a very taxing thing to have a
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: very young baby and think about where you can let
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: go a little bit cleaning your house, you know, stop
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: doing regular meetings that are not important. What can you
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: give on just to give yourself a little bit more
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: time to take a nap or stare at a wall,
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: or you know, get a little bit bit of a break.
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: Because it is so taxing, and all of those things
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: that are good for our mental health that sort of
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: reduce the pressure on us as individuals can also be
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: good for our relationship. We want to nurture our relationship.
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: In order to do that, we need to nurture ourselves. Okay,
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: you ready for the lightning around I am, but can
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: I can I pause and ask you a question? Is
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: just totally wondering because what differences exist between you and
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: your husband that you've had to navigate and how did
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: you navigate those? Listeners are wanting to know, Emily, So.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: My husband is more is probably stricter than I am.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: He's much better at holding a consistent line. And that's
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: something that we I think have sort of come come
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: together on. But it's still true that like, I'm much more,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: I'm much more susceptible to whining and to you know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: like giving in and feeling sort.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Of bad for various things.
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: And we've kind of we've and I think part of
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: what happens there is like then I give too much
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: of myself And he's like, why did you give in
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: on that?
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Like that?
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: You know you need more, You would have more energy
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: if you hadn't given and on that, and there was
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: no reason to give in on that. And I think
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: sort of navigating that and figuring out like how much
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: am I doing because I want to?
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: And how much am I doing.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: Because I I think we should And then therefore I
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: think we should split it. I think that's you know,
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: I would tell some of these people it's hard to
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: have two people try to lean into their professional lives
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: at the same time, and you know, just recognizing it.
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: I think sometimes for me it's just good to recognize,
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: like it's hard to have two people trying to kill
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: it at work simultaneously and that that's just sometimes that's
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: just hard.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's much easier because the kids are bigger now.
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, but still, And I don't know if
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: you feel this way. Every time there's like a snow day,
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: it's like a race to between me and your husbands,
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: like meetings.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: Thinking about last week's snow day, there was no snow,
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: but nevertheless there was also no school, and you know,
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: the and the the babysitter at the flu and so
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: like and he you know, my husband doesn't work, and
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: I work more locally than he does, and so you know,
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: splitting that up is just like one of my very
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: close friends when we had our first kid, she told me, like,
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: the most important thing is to decide on, like categorically,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: who's going to take over if the nanny is sick
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: on like, and so think in advance about like what
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: are the sets of things that are most that are
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: sort of taking precedent, So like we both teach, and
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: so there was this sort of idea like, okay, if
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: you are teaching, that wins, and like you have to
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: be in the classroom and so the other person has
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: to drop things, and that's continued to be something I
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: think is pretty important is to just decide if you're
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: both going to have a job, like which pieces of
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: the job.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: Are more important.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Because in the morning, everybody's meetings are the most important.
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. But there are
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: days where you probably both have to teach. There are
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: days where yeah.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: It's just and then my kids are watching television in
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: the back of my classroom.
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah. And I actually think that that's an important thing
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: for parents of kids of any age, that when you
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: neglect your kids, it feels terrible in the moment, but
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: often they're fine, Like usually they're in a place where
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: they're safe, or they're bored where they're safe and they're
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: bored or they're safe and they're having a great time
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: on a screen and you feel kind of guilty, but
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: it's fine. And I think we're so hard on ourselves,
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: so I think a whole lot of self compassion in
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: those moments is useful. And then remembering that our kids
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: do not need to be entertained by us twenty four
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: to seven, and in fact, that's not very good for them.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Right, That is so true.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: The other source of conflict in my house is the
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: dishwasher because, like, I know, I talk about this a lot,
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: but like, my husband is really really good at loading
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: the dishwasher and he thinks a lot about it, and
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: I don't care about loading the dishwasher and I just
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: throw things in at random and.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: He doesn't. He has to rearrange in them.
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: So there's interesting research showing that dishwasher loading is one
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: of the common areas of conflict for couples. It's very funny.
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: It comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room.
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: There's often one person who's very disciplined about how a
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: dishwasher gets loaded, and when like you who doesn't care
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: as much and would like to just be efficient with
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: their time, and it creates friction, and I think it's
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: it's there's this great line for one of my favorite
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: favorite marital researchers, because I'm the kind of person who
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: has such things where the researcher says, most crimes of
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: the heart are misdemeanors, and I always think about that
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: of like the small things can really feel quite explosive.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: Somebody once, I posted a picture of my dishwasher once,
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: and somebody comment on Instagram.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: In every marriage, there's one person.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Who loads the dishwasher like a Swiss engineer and one
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: person who loads it like a raccoon on meth.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: And you're the second. That's true. On the second one.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: Raccoon, that's awesome.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: Uh Okay, here's some questions for you.
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: How do I stop myself from micromanaging my partner's relationship
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: with the baby like you're doing it wrong?
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: Well, I do think that some of the things that
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: we talked about earlier pertain here in terms of when
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: we try to micromanage, we're actually doing the opposite of
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: what we intend to do. What we want to do
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: is we want to protect relationships and make things better.
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: But because of this idea of psychological reactans where people
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: don't like to be controlled, we create more distance between
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: us and the person who we are trying to control.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: We also create less influence. Right, the more we try
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: to control, the less influence we have. And so by
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: lightening up on the efforts to control and instead sort
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: of saying you know it bothers me but of course
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: it's up to you. It's your call. This is like
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: a good mantra. Ultimately it's your call, right. This recognition
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: that every person has an agency true about our children too,
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: and we have more influence when we honor that when
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: we say it is your call. And there are probably
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: some ways that that works for you that I'm not seeing.
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: But can I tell you how it makes me feel?
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: Or can I tell you my concerns? And this is
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: another strategy of asking permission to share your view, and
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: if the other person is willing to hear it and
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: they say, sure, you can tell me, then it actually
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: increases the likelihood that they'll be open to it. And
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: if they're not, then you get to save your breath.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: I also think I will just add something here, which
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: is I think when you are especially early on, even
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: very small things can seem like you must do them
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: a particular way. And so what I like about that
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: frame is I think some of the time, if you
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: get ready to say that and then you sort of
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: say it in your head, like you know. A thing
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: I feel really strongly about is that you use three
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: wipes when you're you doing the diaper, and not too
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: when you sort of say that in your head, like, well, actually,
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: I can't really with a stray face say that out
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: loud to another person. I think it helps us recognize
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: some things are important and do deserve saying like it's
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: really important to me that our kids, you know, sit
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: at the table if that's.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Really important to you, or it's really important to me.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: That you know, we that our kid has a bath
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: or whatever.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: Is the thing that some things might be very important
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: to you and some things it cannot be.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Every hill is a hill that you most that you
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: want to die on.
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: I think that point deserves extra emphasis because, especially in
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: the early phases of parenting, when you have a teeny
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: tiny infant, everything feels so important. But if you're micromanaging
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: your partner on everything, you're really going to lose your
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: influence and your credibility. So you have to sort of
• 43:55
  Speaker 5: manage internally this dialogue of well, that's going to be
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: a problem, and that's going to be a problem. That's
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: going to be from so that the things that really
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: matter can matter, because if everything matters, then nothing matters, right,
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: It just turns into nagging, which is like the Charlie
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: Brown cartoon of like Wow, Wow, wow, and your partner's
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: not going to hear anything other than my partner's really annoying.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: So one of the things that comes up again sort
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: of in very early parenting, particularly if one person is home,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: like on leave, the question of you know, my partner
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: is at work. They come back every day they're exhausted
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day and it feels like, well,
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: they've been out working and I've just been here. But
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: of course I'm also exhausted because babies are exhausting. And
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: how do we navigate this first moment of you know,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: we are both very tired and feel that we are
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: deserving of rest, but no rest is to be had.
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, this is something to negotiate ahead of time, not
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: necessarily like before you have a baby, but like before
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: that moment arrives, because in that moment, everyone is feeling
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: so depleted. And I think what's important to recognize is
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: that our own pain feels bigger than the other person's pain,
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: and we feel pretty certain in those moments that it
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: is bigger, Right Like, if I've been with the baby
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: all day, then I am pretty sure that my partner
• 45:14
  Speaker 5: who got to read emails from start to finish and
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: go to the bathroom alone. Has had an easier day,
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: But my partner may have had meeting after meeting with
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: his crappy you know, micromanagy difficult boss and also is
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: sleep deprived and had to try to pretend that he
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: had all cylinders firing neurologically all day long, and all
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: he wants to do is come home and just like
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: sit without somebody telling him what to do. And he
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: feels like, you know, the baby napped, and so I
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: had a break to myself. So if you are both
• 45:47
  Speaker 5: feeling in desperate need of a break, the reality is
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: you are both deserving of a break. So I think
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: trying to do some understanding conversation and some problem solving
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: in advance of the moment, recognizing that that moment is
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: really a difficult one for both people and that you're
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: both absolutely you know, you come by it rightly. You
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: both deserve a little bit of a break, and wondering
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: how you can do that, And there's lots of different
• 46:12
  Speaker 5: ways to problem solve that, Like you know, one is
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: to outsource it, to actually get some help so that
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: you both can get a break, maybe even at the
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: same time, maybe even together, Like it could just be
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: napping together, which is lovely if you can get it.
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: But there could be other ways to problem solve it too,
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: like you know, turn taking, so you know, perhaps the
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: partner who's coming home from work just stays in their
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: car for fifteen minutes so that they can have some
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: quiet time, and then when they come in they're ready
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: to take the baby so that the partner who's been
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: home with the baby all day can get a well
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: deserved break. This is a little bit later in life example,
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: but my husband and I both really are desperate to
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: get a little bit of work done on Sundays, and
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: so we divide the day. He gets an hour in
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: the morning, I get an hour in the afternoon. It
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: is like a precious hour for each of us and
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: we try to honor it and do that turn taking
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: with what with whoever doesn't have the work time, taking
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: the three kids for an hour away from the parent
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: who's working. So there are ways to negotiate it, and
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: there's ways to get help. It is hard to do
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: that kind of thinking in the moment where you're just
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: desperate for the break, but in that moment, just to
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: recognize that the other person is not a villain They're
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: not trying to screw you over. They're probably also just
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: extremely fatigued and struggling as well.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: Okay, so I want to end with sex as one does,
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: because I think this is a sort of.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: A piece of all.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: Of this which comes up a lot in early parenting,
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: which is, you know, initially for physical reasons and then
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: for a bunch of other reasons, like people are not
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: having sex as much, and we know parents have less sex,
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: and we know that many people that everybody, but many
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: people find that to be an important part of their
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: relationship and important part of their life, of their life.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: How does one navigate mismatched post baby sex drive.
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: It's a really hard one for a lot of reasons.
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: And I think one of the things that can happen
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: is that, for example, the partner who who had the
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: child physically and is now nursing is just touched out
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: and they're giving a lot of physical warmth and affection
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: to the baby, and the partner who did not give
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: birth and who is not nursing is feeling kind of neglected.
• 48:34
  Speaker 5: And that isn't you know, the partner who had the
• 48:37
  Speaker 5: baby's fault. They're exhausted and depleted, but it is a
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: very painful thing to feel neglected by your partner. And
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: so what can often happen is that the partner who
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: feels neglected is starts to sort of become more insistent,
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: and then the partner who's nursing around the clock and
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: just is touched out feels like yet another thing. And
• 48:57
  Speaker 5: you can feed and clothe yourselves and yourself so I
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: don't really want to meet your needs right now, and
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: you're being quite insensitive to me. So there's like this
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: this real tension. So I think part of it is
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: to just recognize that when one person is wanting more
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: intimacy than the other, again, it's not a villainous, you know,
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: malevolent desire. It's a desire to connect. You know, if
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: people are familiar with this idea of the five love languages,
• 49:23
  Speaker 5: one of them is physical intimacy, and for a lot
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: of people that is a really really important way to connect.
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: And so if you have one person who's like that
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: one that love language is not on the table right
• 49:34
  Speaker 5: now because it's being consumed by the baby, then that
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: can really leave the person who really wants to connect
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: that way feeling unloved. And that that's a very painful
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: place to be. So I think just starting from a
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: compassionate understanding point of view, and then you can move
• 49:48
  Speaker 5: to some of the negotiations the problem solving, and the
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: problem solving is not easy. And so what I do
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: want to say, and I say this so often in
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: couples therapy, is that there is no good, simple solution
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: to a comp heated problem. And if you think that
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: there is one, if you anytime you hear yourself say
• 50:05
  Speaker 5: if you would only just that's probably the preamble to
• 50:08
  Speaker 5: a simple solution. And it is probably a complicated problem.
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: And your partner is probably going to resist that kind
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: of solution because usually it's something that they're supposed to
• 50:16
  Speaker 5: do that doesn't feel so simple for them, even if
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: it feels simple for you. And so I think trying
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: to think in more nuanced ways of like, you have
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: needs and I have needs, and we're both really tapped
• 50:28
  Speaker 5: out and pulled in so many different directions, and so
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: what's a way that we can get a little bit
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: better without expecting to resolve anything perfectly for the time being. So,
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: how can I if it's physical affection that you're looking
• 50:41
  Speaker 5: for and sex really doesn't feel on the table because
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: I'm still healing from delivery. Then you know what other
• 50:48
  Speaker 5: kinds of ways of connecting physically would be positive, even
• 50:52
  Speaker 5: if they're not exactly what you're looking for. If space
• 50:55
  Speaker 5: is what you need, and you know care and sort
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: of not touching is what you need, what's the way
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: that I can can give you that without totally giving
• 51:03
  Speaker 5: up on our connection entirely, and so finding these sort
• 51:06
  Speaker 5: of middle ground solutions that are imperfect and that recognize
• 51:10
  Speaker 5: that it's a complicated problem to solve this difference in
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: desire to connect intimately and doing it really compassionately I
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: think is so important because the tendency, I think is
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: to really vilify one another because we're feeling so hurt.
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: It's this like instinctual you hurt me, I'm going to
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: hurt you back, and instead of coming together, which is
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: what both people tend to want, it sort of pulls
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: you further apart.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: I love this, Yale. Thank you so much for being here.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: I think there's a really a tremendous amount in this
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: conversation that people will benefit from.
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: I always learned from you, so thanks for moving here.
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: Thank you. I always love chatting with you.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: Parent data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: the parent Data team and pix. If you have thoughts
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: on this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to support
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: the show, become a subscriber to the parent Data newsletter
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: at parentdata dot org, where I write weekly posts on
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: everything to do with parents and data to help you
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: make better, more informed parenting decisions. For example, you can
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: read all of the l's contributions to parent Data, including
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: her research on how to set boundaries with other adults. Spoiler,
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: it's more productive than just cutting your mother in law
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: out of your life. At parentdata dot org, there are
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: a lot of ways you can help people find out
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: about us. Leave a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts,
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: Text your friend about something you learned from this episode.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: Debate your mother in law about the merits of something
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: parents do now that is totally different.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: From what she did.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: Plose the story to your Instagram, debunking a panic headline
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: of your own. Just remember to mention the podcast too.
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: Rite penelpe right, mam, We'll see you next time.