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From Addiction To Surrender · Is Your Way In Your Way?

0:25
Cassandra: Good day out there to all of my listeners, and I'd like to welcome you to Is Your Way in Your Way podcast.
0:32
Cassandra: And I'm your host.
0:33
Cassandra: My name is Cassandra Crawley Mayo.
0:36
Cassandra: And for those new listeners out there, I'd like to welcome you to this podcast.
0:40
Cassandra: Let me share with you what this podcast is about.
0:43
Cassandra: My new listeners and even the people that have heard me many times before, it's really about having an opportunity to guide women to break internal barriers that's preventing you from living your best life on your terms.
1:03
Cassandra: So we talk about topics related to self-empowerment, self-improvement, and it'll also give you an opportunity to do some reflection.
1:12
Cassandra: And my prayer has always been that somebody will hear this message and make a decision.
1:19
Cassandra: You know what?
1:20
Cassandra: I understand the barriers that I have.
1:23
Cassandra: I am going to mitigate those barriers.
1:26
Cassandra: I heard something today where I'm just going to say, you know what?
1:29
Cassandra: I'm going to do this thing.
1:31
Cassandra: It's kind of like my book.
1:32
Cassandra: It took me years to write a book because of my, I was in my way, those limiting beliefs, right?
1:38
Cassandra: So I am actually on a mission to help you to break those barriers so that you can start living your best life.
1:47
Cassandra: Because I don't want any of you to have any regrets.
1:50
Cassandra: And today, our topic is titled Higher Powered.
1:55
Cassandra: And I'm going to introduce the special guest today, and her name is Jessica Morris.
2:01
Cassandra: Hello, Jessica.
2:03
Jessica: Hello, Cassandra.
2:05
Jessica: Great to be with you today.
2:07
Cassandra: Thank you.
2:07
Cassandra: Now, I want to ask my listeners this have you ever looked at your life and wondered, is this really it?
2:15
Cassandra: Or felt like the very thing that you're struggling with is the exact thing God wants to use to set you free.
2:24
Cassandra: So on today's episode, we're going to dive into a story that will shake you to your core and stir your spirit.
2:32
Cassandra: My special guest, Jessica Morris, is an author, a spiritual director, and a woman who has walked through the fires of addiction and came out refined, not ruined.
2:45
Cassandra: In her book, Higher Power, Jessica unpacks the radical truth that dying to self is not the end.
2:53
Cassandra: It's actually the beginning of a real abundant life.
2:57
Cassandra: So, guys, if you're ready for a soul revival and not just the surface level motivation, this episode is your invitation for all of us to go a little deeper.
3:10
Cassandra: Again, my goodness gracious, Jessica.
3:13
Cassandra: I want to, this is what I'd like to do first.
3:15
Cassandra: I like to read your bio just a little bit, a snippet.
3:20
Cassandra: Because I want my listeners to understand what qualifies you, what qualifies you to do what you're doing, and what is this higher powered uh title all about?
3:34
Cassandra: So, as I indicated earlier, guys, uh Jessica is a spiritual director, an author, and a redeemed woman of God whose powerful testimony proves that nothing is wasted in God's hand.
3:48
Cassandra: A recovering addict and lover of Jesus, she draws from her personal journey through flood, through food, I'm sorry, through food and alcohol addiction, the family disease of alcoholism and spiritual transformation to help others break free from the bondage of self.
4:07
Cassandra: And her latest book, Higher Power, One Woman's Journey of Her Personal Eschatology.
4:15
Cassandra: And she's going to talk about what that means.
4:17
Cassandra: She boldly explores what it means to die to self daily and truly live, offering readers a raw and redemptive look at freedom through faith, recovery, and surrender.
4:31
Cassandra: All right, Jessica.
4:33
Cassandra: Now it's time for you to share with all of us about your backstory and what qualifies you to do the work that you are currently doing.
4:45
Jessica: Well, what qualifies me is the one-word answer, it's God.
4:49
Jessica: You know, I mean, and how I got there to relying completely on him.
4:56
Jessica: Um, I I the very beginning was the hardest part.
5:00
Jessica: Yeah, I was born into an alcoholic family, and that's on both sides.
5:05
Jessica: My um both my grandfathers were alcoholics, and my father was an active alcoholic my almost my entire life.
5:14
Jessica: Um and so my mom was, you know, the best codependent there was because she was raised by one, and so she she knew the the game.
5:23
Jessica: And um my dad was also a Methodist minister, and my introduction to God was through this very disease sort of portal, you know, because while my father, I do believe, without a shadow of a doubt, was called to be a minister, he was a phenomenal minister, he was a great speaker, he was very good with the people outside of our home.
5:48
Jessica: He was very good at being a minister.
5:51
Jessica: He also uh was absolutely an alcoholic.
5:55
Jessica: And I believe maybe even there was some mental illness there.
5:59
Jessica: Perhaps he was self-medicating for a long time.
6:02
Jessica: Um, but that's you know, was never diagnosed, but it's that's just my assumption.
6:07
Jessica: So uh when I was real young, he I'm the youngest of four and four children, and so my mom was a school teacher, my dad was a minister, we didn't have a lot of money growing up.
6:19
Jessica: And um I was very little when this happened, but he uh so I can't tell you exactly when it was, but he told me that I was a mistake, that he and my mom only wanted three children, and that I was a mistake.
6:36
Jessica: And I remember being, I remember the moment like it was yesterday.
6:40
Jessica: In fact, when I say the word mistake in reference to this, I get sort of like a chill in my arms because I mean that's how close it is still.
6:48
Jessica: And um I remember we were in the dining room and he was sitting by his bar drinking a drink.
6:54
Jessica: So, you know, I look back on it, and he was probably already gone a little bit at that point.
6:59
Jessica: And um, I went into the kitchen to ask my mom if this was a true statement.
7:04
Jessica: Okay, and she said to me, and I quote, uh, he shouldn't have told you that.
7:12
Jessica: Like she didn't say, No, that's not true.
7:15
Jessica: She basically confirmed it.
7:17
Jessica: And I was old enough to know that's what she was saying without saying it.
7:22
Jessica: Um and then I spent the entire rest of my life trying to hide the fact that I was a mistake from everybody else.
7:31
unknown: Okay.
7:31
Jessica: I never told that to anybody that he said that to me.
7:35
Jessica: I didn't want my siblings to know because I thought, you know how siblings are.
7:39
Jessica: I thought if they knew, they'd make fun of me.
7:41
Jessica: And and um, you know, so I just I I spent my entire life trying to overcome that.
7:49
Jessica: And that that's anybody who's been told that, you know, it's impossible to try to overcome that.
7:55
Jessica: Because I also, you know, he was also my minister.
7:58
Jessica: And so I felt like God was saying that to me.
8:02
Jessica: You know, it felt like that was like this is probably why God put God didn't like me, so he put me in this situation so that I would suffer.
8:11
Jessica: That's that was kind of what I did in my own little mind, you know.
8:15
Jessica: And I started using food for uh comfort, like way like my first memories are about food.
8:26
Speaker 3: Okay.
8:27
Jessica: I hated my father when he drank.
8:29
Jessica: I didn't know what alcoholism was, but I hated him when he drank.
8:33
Jessica: So I was just having fun when I was drinking.
8:36
Jessica: I wasn't mean, I was just having fun.
8:40
Jessica: And uh and so food and alcohol were just my go-to.
8:46
Jessica: That's how I went to oblivion.
8:48
Jessica: Um, beyond that, my father was also pretty violent and abusive.
8:52
Jessica: So there was just it was just a really hard way to grow up.
8:55
Jessica: I don't want to go into all that because I mean anybody who you know has been in this kind of situation knows what I'm talking about.
9:02
Jessica: And um, and I, as much as I loved Jesus, I always loved Jesus.
9:10
Jessica: You know, I I just always loved him.
9:12
Jessica: I don't know if you remember, and I'm aging myself when I say this, but there was a mini-series back before all this streaming.
9:20
Jessica: There was a mini-series on TV in the 70s and early 80s called Jesus of Nazareth.
9:25
Jessica: And it was on, they'd always play it like the week of Holy Week.
9:31
Jessica: Uh-huh.
9:31
Jessica: And it had all these amazing people in it, like Ann Bancroft and um uh James Earl Jones, like all these games were in it.
9:41
Jessica: And I recorded it.
9:43
Jessica: We had a Betamax.
9:45
Jessica: You remember before VHS, there was the Betamax?
9:49
Jessica: And I recorded it and I would watch it over and over and over again.
9:53
Jessica: And the one thing I remember most about it is that it was the most they ever showed of Jesus being beaten at that time and and crucified.
10:07
Jessica: It was the most they ever showed of that, and that was the part of the movie that I kept going back to.
10:13
Jessica: Like that was where I found identification with him.
10:17
Jessica: His father did this, like, because I thought his father did this to him.
10:23
Cassandra: Sure.
10:23
Jessica: You know, and so that that was, and so he was always my guy.
10:27
Jessica: Like Jesus always took me.
10:29
Jessica: God was mean and God was a disciplinarian, and God didn't like me, but Jesus liked me.
10:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.
10:35
Jessica: And so that's where it all started.
10:37
Jessica: When I was 18, I left the church, I went to college.
10:40
Jessica: I was like, no more organized religion for me, because I see what, you know, they I see the people they put in charge, you know, at because at that point I couldn't see the goodness in my father's preaching, you know.
10:53
Jessica: I only saw what he brought home.
10:55
Jessica: Right.
10:56
Jessica: Right.
10:57
Jessica: And so so I left organized religion and I went completely into my addictions, you know, in college and in my early um adult, young adult life, and found I did find recovery when I was 29, and a lot of other stuff happened there, but I think that gives you sort of the background of it.
11:15
Cassandra: Sure, that definitely qualifies you.
11:18
Cassandra: Yeah, yeah.
11:19
Cassandra: Uh Jessica, what was your pivotal moment?
11:26
Cassandra: Now you grew up um with your parents who were who were in the church.
11:34
Cassandra: Um, I don't know, and it doesn't sound like he was a closet drinker, but maybe he was to his parishioners, like the parishioners maybe didn't have a clue that oh no, they knew everything.
11:49
Jessica: Yeah, we lived in a very small town, and I think part of the it was also the 70s, so it was a very different time in the world.
11:58
Jessica: My dad, you know, was out partying and drinking with the firemen and everything in the small town, and I think they loved him because of it, you know, because it endeared him to them, right?
12:10
Cassandra: Showed his human side that, you know, just because I'm a preacher doesn't mean I'm on the straight and narrow.
12:17
Cassandra: So they shouldn't perhaps relate to that.
12:20
Cassandra: Um, it sounds like you got to a point in your life you had you were just sick and tired.
12:28
Cassandra: Like it was what was it that made you say, look, I I I can't do this anymore.
12:34
Cassandra: What was that?
12:35
Cassandra: What had enabled you to pivot from that cycle that you were in?
12:40
Jessica: Well, it was a uh sort of a progression of things, um, but there were um there were two people who I had great respect for who called me out.
12:53
Jessica: And the first one was my oldest sister, she's six years older than I am, and when and you know what both my parents thought, not that they didn't do the best that they could with what they had, you know, um, but my older sister pretty much took me on as her own.
13:11
Jessica: And she she just took me everywhere with her.
13:15
Jessica: Thank God for her.
13:16
Jessica: Thank God for her.
13:17
Jessica: She took me everywhere with her, she taught me manners.
13:20
Jessica: I remember her like really parenting me, you know, growing up.
13:24
Jessica: And to this day, she's my closest friend.
13:27
Jessica: She's just she's the best.
13:28
Jessica: And but she came to me about a year before I got in recovery.
13:33
Jessica: Uh we had a get together and I was out of control with my drinking.
13:39
Jessica: Yeah.
13:40
Jessica: And she came to me at the next morning and she said, Um, she called me out and she said, you know, your drinking really scared me last night.
13:50
Jessica: She said, Um, I am not gonna watch you do to your life what dad did to our family.
13:56
Jessica: I'm not gonna watch it, not gonna sit by and watch it.
13:59
Jessica: And she left.
14:00
Jessica: Like she didn't tell me what I had to do, she didn't tell me I had to do this or I had to do that.
14:05
Jessica: She just said, I'm not gonna watch this anymore.
14:08
Speaker 1: Wow.
14:09
Jessica: Left.
14:10
Jessica: And I this is where my crazy ego, uh, I mean, this is where the addiction is just so harsh because in my head, this is what I thought, I'll show her.
14:23
Jessica: I'm not an alcoholic like he is.
14:26
Speaker 1: Right.
14:27
Jessica: And because how dare she, you know, compare me to my father.
14:31
Jessica: Um, and so I went to a counselor and I start, I thought, I'm gonna go to counseling and I'll stop drinking so much in front of her.
14:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
14:42
Jessica: But what happened was then I was already bad in my food addiction.
14:47
Jessica: My food addiction was was one in which like my weight would go up probably like about 50 pounds, then I'd lose 50, and then I'd gain 75, and then I'd lose, you know, like that.
14:57
Jessica: Yeah.
14:57
Jessica: Um, and I was, but I was I didn't realize that I was getting to a place where I couldn't lose weight anymore.
15:04
Jessica: Like I couldn't even put two or three days of a diet together anymore.
15:07
Speaker 1: Oh no.
15:08
Jessica: And so when I put the booze down a little bit, I picked up the food even more.
15:14
Jessica: And in that year, I probably gained like 75 pounds in that one year from the time she said that until I got into recovery.
15:23
Jessica: And the reason I went to recovery was because this counselor that I started to see, I really liked her a lot.
15:30
Jessica: And she is that your puppy, it's Matt.
15:36
Jessica: Unless there's no mat.
15:38
Jessica: It's okay.
15:40
Jessica: Um, I'm so sorry.
15:42
Jessica: I understand completely.
15:44
Jessica: Um, but I um so I was going to this counselor, and after I was with her for about a year, she said, you know, you have a lot of childhood issues that we need to get to the bottom of.
15:57
Speaker 1: Yeah.
15:58
Jessica: But until you get this food thing under control, she said, I don't see any of it taking because the food is in the way.
16:08
Jessica: And I said to her, What are you talking about?
16:09
Jessica: She goes, Jessica, all you ever talk about when you come in here is how you can't stop eating.
16:15
Jessica: Oh.
16:15
Jessica: And I had no idea that that's what I was talking about all the time.
16:21
Jessica: You know, I would like to say things about my family, but I was like nonstop talking about how I was trying this diet and it wouldn't work.
16:28
Jessica: And so she sent me, she said, Look, I don't have any experience with this.
16:33
Jessica: But she said, I do know that there are places you can go where you just put a dollar in the basket when the basket comes around.
16:40
Jessica: I'm not talking about a commercial weight loss program, but those who need it know what I'm talking about.
16:46
Jessica: Yeah.
16:46
Jessica: And um, so she there happened to be, this is a God thing, a meeting right across the street from where her office was located.
16:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:55
Jessica: And she pointed at the building and she said, Thursday nights at 7:30, they meet right there.
17:00
Jessica: And so I went because I really respected this counselor.
17:06
Speaker 1: Yeah.
17:07
Jessica: Um, and I knew from the moment I sat in that room and I cried through the whole meeting because these people were saying exactly what I was doing with food, but they were saying it out loud with no shame and actually joy in their faces because they were recovering, they were recovering from it.
17:29
Jessica: Okay, and and I knew it was exactly where I needed to be.
17:35
Cassandra: So this was for food addiction, not alcohol.
17:38
Jessica: I went in first for food, yes.
17:40
Cassandra: Okay, all right, okay, and and did so it evolved into alcohol of individuals that were in that space, were they all addicted to food or just that had an addiction?
17:52
Jessica: Well, it was interesting because again, the people in that first room were all food, food in recovery for food.
17:59
Jessica: And the woman I asked to help me in the beginning, um, she said to me, she gave me a food plan and she said, take this to your doctor and make sure it's okay for your body type.
18:10
Jessica: She's like, because I'm not a dietitian or anything, this is just what I receive.
18:14
Jessica: And she said, and just so you know, there's no drinking on this food plan.
18:18
Jessica: You can't drink any alcohol because they've determined that sugar is the addictive substance, yeah, and there's sugar in alcohol.
18:27
Jessica: Yeah, and so I said this is what I said.
18:30
Jessica: See, still very cocky at this point.
18:31
Jessica: I said to her, Well, I don't have a problem with alcohol, so that's fine, right?
18:35
Jessica: Within a year, she was sending me to an addictions counselor because she she was this woman was also in the other program okay, and for alcoholics, and she knew just from talking to me, even though I wasn't drinking that I had all the attitudes and behaviors.
18:58
Jessica: And so she sent me to this guy, and that's where the counseling took off, and I started working the other program as well.
19:29
Cassandra: Oh, wow.
19:30
Cassandra: So with that other counselor, um was he counseling?
19:37
Cassandra: Did he talk about God?
19:38
Cassandra: Did he talk about Jesus?
19:40
Cassandra: Like, what do you think helped you through this journey as you look back on things?
19:49
Jessica: He was that that counselor was I would say the closest thing, uh, the closest spirit in a person that I've ever met that is closest to God.
20:07
Jessica: Um very accepting, loving, also very truthful and stern.
20:15
Jessica: He wasn't gonna take any of my crap, you know.
20:19
Jessica: Um, he was gonna tell me the truth.
20:21
Jessica: He wasn't gonna co-sign any of my bull, you know.
20:24
Jessica: Um, and he, but he never like he would occasionally, in fact, I still have a um part of my problems were financial.
20:35
Jessica: Like I was in a lot of debt.
20:36
Jessica: And I talked to him about that as well.
20:38
Jessica: And he gave me a little, he had a post-it note and he wrote on it for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
20:46
Jessica: And he put the verse.
20:47
Jessica: I think it's Matthew, I forget exactly which, but I still have it taped in my wallet.
20:53
Jessica: Um, you know, like so every once in a while he'd give you a little verse, but he never pushed any of his own beliefs on his clients, but he was very much like at the end of um we had these treatment weekends where the entire weekend we would go and stay overnight and go through the work.
21:11
Jessica: You know, it was very intense therapeutic work.
21:14
Jessica: And on the Sunday morning before we left, the counselors would come out with buckets of water and they would they wouldn't they wouldn't have us take our feet or shoes off, but they would wash our hands.
21:26
Jessica: And it was it was you know, a very symbolic, yes, very symbolic um thing.
21:33
Jessica: And so I think he he was the first man for real that I was able to trust and really um I remember him saying, Do you watch the show The Chosen?
21:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard of it though.
21:49
Jessica: Okay, well, it's phenomenal.
21:51
Jessica: I highly recommend it.
21:52
Jessica: Okay in the show, anytime I've noticed Jesus is talking to a woman, usually she looks down because that timing, you know, that culture back then, look directly at a man.
22:05
Jessica: And the character Jesus always says to the women, he'll say, Look up, look up, you know, because he wants to see their face when he's talking to them.
22:15
Jessica: Long before that show ever, and that gives me chills right now, telling you that, because long before I ever saw that show, before I was willing to step back into, you know, seeking God and everything, yeah.
22:28
Jessica: I remember not being able to even look at the other women in my women's therapy group because I was so ashamed of my behavior and everything.
22:38
Jessica: And I'll never forget the first time I looked up, Steve actually got up out of his chair and came over and kneeled down so he was face to face with me.
22:48
Jessica: Is that the guy with counselor?
22:50
Jessica: Steve.
22:51
Jessica: Yes, that was the counselor, and he and I heard him say, Jessica, look up.
22:58
Jessica: Oh and I just looked up at him, and and he and it took me a while, you know.
23:04
Jessica: He goes, Nobody in here, nobody in here is judging you.
23:10
Jessica: Look around at the faces of these women, they love you, they know you, they've been you, they are you, and I am here to tell you nobody is judging you.
23:21
Jessica: And it I get teary, like right now, I'm a little teary telling you this because like I said, he was the first man that I could really look eye to eye and and and be honest about who I was.
23:35
Cassandra: Okay, so all the testing, you know, they there's a saying that says, no tests, no testimony, you know.
23:43
Cassandra: So out of all of the testing, um what made you decide to get in the work that you're in?
23:53
Cassandra: Because all of that stuff, you know, it is still a work in process.
23:58
Cassandra: I mean, it's it's it's an ongoing thing.
24:01
Cassandra: And it sounds like that addiction, you were in your way, you know.
24:06
Cassandra: Um, is your way in your way?
24:08
Cassandra: How how what was it?
24:12
Cassandra: And you talk about dying to self, you talk about having a relationship with God.
24:17
Cassandra: How did all of that help you get out of your way?
24:23
Jessica: Well, you know what?
24:26
Jessica: Jesus is awesome.
24:27
Jessica: Okay, let me just say, Jesus is awesome because about six years before I got into recovery, somewhere around six or seven years before, I had an encounter with Jesus, a literal personal encounter with Jesus, and I ran away from him.
24:44
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:45
Jessica: Okay.
24:45
Jessica: Um, and it was the biggest regret, like he literally was there.
24:51
Jessica: I was crying out to God, and I know he was there, but I didn't look at him, and instead I ran back into the party that I was because I was outside when this happened.
25:00
Jessica: And um those six years from the time that happened until the time I got into recovery, and I would even say, like maybe even the first year of recovery, um, that was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
25:17
Jessica: Like that was literal hell on earth.
25:20
Jessica: I mean, everything that he says about his second coming um in regards to what's going to happen to those who turn away from him, that happened to me during the that time.
25:32
Jessica: I was isolated.
25:33
Jessica: It was horrible.
25:35
Jessica: And when I got into recovery and started to the reason the book is called higher powered is because in the rooms of recovery, that's the term that they use, higher power, because they don't want anybody to have to believe anything, you know, because a lot of people have been harmed by the church in one way or another.
25:57
Jessica: And so they just want people to recognize look, we're all here because we're addicts, it's the only reason we're here, right?
26:05
Jessica: You've got to accept and surrender to the fact, though, that this is not going to work for you unless you have a higher power.
26:13
Jessica: This cannot be coming from you, it's gotta come from a spiritual solution, right?
26:20
Jessica: Yeah, and so but what happened to me is when that happened, I when that happened with Jesus, I like put it out of my brain because I was I was so ashamed of myself for running away that I just turned it off like it never happened.
26:35
Jessica: But what happened in early recovery is I started seeking, seeking, seeking, seeking.
26:40
Jessica: I was reading books, I mean, I was devouring books on Jesus and spirituality, and and then I met the chaplain where I worked, and he and I would go to lunch and we'd be talking like I would just talk to him, and he was acting, he was actually the first man of the cloth that I felt I could trust.
26:58
Jessica: And we talked and talked and talked.
27:01
Jessica: I mean, until finally I said to him, I think I want to go to seminary, which is crazy because I don't want to be a minister, I just feel like I can't, right?
27:10
Jessica: Uh-huh.
27:11
Jessica: Yeah, like I just want to learn this, you know.
27:13
Jessica: You were thirsty.
27:15
Jessica: And so I so I did.
27:17
Jessica: I went, I he he encouraged me.
27:20
Jessica: He's like, Jessica, if that's what you feel called to do, then do it.
27:24
Jessica: And while I was sitting in a class in my second class in seminary, I had the memory.
27:29
Jessica: I was sitting in intro to New Testament, yeah, and we were talking about Revelation, the book of Revelation, and I was thinking about Jesus' second coming, and I and I thought, I wonder if, since everything that he says we talk about is metaphorical or symbolic, you know, the way he shares parables and all that stuff, like maybe he was being metaphorical about his second coming.
27:53
Jessica: Like maybe he meant it was gonna be personal.
27:56
Jessica: And then I had when I had that original thought, I remembered him showing up outside that party.
28:05
Jessica: And I was and I was like, Oh my god, like it hit me, he did come and I did run away.
28:14
Jessica: And look what happened.
28:15
Cassandra: Wow, what a revelation!
28:18
Jessica: And that's where it all sort of you know came together and started, and and I it's all God, Cassandra.
28:26
Jessica: It's all God because he just kept giving me the pieces that I could accept in the moment.
28:34
Cassandra: Well, look, what about um you talked about a personal relationship?
28:40
Cassandra: You sound like you had a personal relationship when you left that party.
28:44
Cassandra: That the the dots start connecting later on in life.
28:48
Cassandra: How do you how does you how does one get a personal relationship?
28:53
Cassandra: What does a personal relationship with Jesus?
28:56
Cassandra: Because I hear that a lot.
28:58
Cassandra: I'm not religious.
28:59
Cassandra: I the key is having a personal relationship.
29:03
Cassandra: How does one acquire that?
29:07
Jessica: Um, well, you know what?
29:09
Jessica: I think um for me anyway, the I the big identifier when I was growing up, which I already mentioned, was really kind of like a perverse way of looking at the relationship between God and Jesus.
29:24
Jessica: Because, you know, now that I'm you know a grown woman and I've I you know experience seminary and everything, I understand that God was not punishing Jesus.
29:33
Jessica: I understand now that God is Jesus and He did this for us because He loves us, like we get that now, but this is the personal part of it.
29:44
Jessica: That is what God knew I could understand in that moment, and so He used it to keep me connected, okay, and so all those years, like even um uh do you remember the movie The Passion of the Christ?
30:02
Jessica: When that came out, I was about five years clean.
30:08
Jessica: And I remember I went to see that with a friend, and there's a scene in that movie where um you see the whole scene is from Mary Magdalene's point of view, and she's down on the ground in the dirt, and she sees all these rocks dropping.
30:25
Jessica: And then she looks up and she sees Jesus, and he has his hand outstretched to her, and then he picks her up off the ground.
30:33
Jessica: I wrote Mel Gibson a letter and I said to him, If you do nothing for the rest of your life, the way you filmed that scene, yeah, you were speaking directly to my heart.
30:46
Jessica: Because that was what happened to me.
30:50
Jessica: And you know, Jesus picked me up off the ground and he said, please follow me, and it's gonna get better, I promise.
30:58
Jessica: Like I knew in that moment, and so that's what I mean when I say personal.
31:03
Jessica: Like he just kept coming to me.
31:06
Jessica: He, you know, when he knew I couldn't look at him, he gave me all these people in recovery who had experienced life the way I had experienced it.
31:17
Jessica: Yeah, and they were recovering from it.
31:19
Jessica: Yeah, they may not have been Christ followers.
31:22
Jessica: I don't even know for some of them, but I know he used them.
31:25
Jessica: Sure.
31:26
Jessica: You know, I know he used them to speak to me.
31:28
Jessica: Yeah, so he came to you as you were.
31:31
Jessica: Exactly, exactly.
31:33
Jessica: And he keeps doing it, like he keeps, you know, as I'm like then he like after I get comfortable with Steve, the first man that I can trust, right?
31:42
Jessica: He then presents me with the chaplain.
31:45
Jessica: Yeah, you know, and it's like I probably couldn't have accepted him prior to meeting Steve, you know, and it just all like in hindsight, it all makes really great sense.
31:56
Jessica: You know, but when I'm going through it, I'm kind of like, why, you know, on a roller coaster.
32:02
Cassandra: Oh, that's awesome.
32:04
Cassandra: Um, because you know, uh, as this podcast is about, is your way in your way?
32:09
Cassandra: And there are a lot of listeners, there are certain things that they'd like to do.
32:14
Cassandra: Many of them could have been addicted or know someone that has.
32:19
Cassandra: And then, you know, and I hear people say, Well, that's that's my fate, you know, I grew up like that, and you know, blaming someone else not knowing that what you need is inside.
32:32
Cassandra: And as you indicated, that, you know, for you and many of my listeners, even for me, if it were not for God, I always say, Where would I be?
32:41
Cassandra: And then I then I say, I know where I'd be.
32:44
Cassandra: I wouldn't be at this particular place right here.
32:47
Cassandra: And I love the fact that it's all about is your way in your way?
32:52
Cassandra: If you don't want that to be in your way, you die to self.
32:56
Cassandra: Okay.
32:57
Cassandra: And I want you to talk about what that means because actually I read that in your in the introductory.
33:04
Cassandra: Right, die to self.
33:06
Cassandra: What does that mean?
33:09
Jessica: That means, um, you know, I'll I'll take it to one thing you just said because I was a professional victim for a long time.
33:17
Jessica: You know, um, you would drink the way I drink if you had my father too.
33:21
Jessica: Yeah.
33:21
Jessica: You know, you, you know, and that kind of behavior, you know.
33:25
Jessica: And thankfully, in early recovery, I met a woman who was very truthful with me about what she saw in me.
33:35
Jessica: It wasn't always easy to accept.
33:38
Jessica: Sure.
33:39
Jessica: But one of the things that she said to me about my victimhood and my martyrdom, you know, she said, you know, Jessica, she said, here's how I look at it.
33:49
Jessica: You're a victim until you're 18.
33:52
Jessica: Okay, because now you're an adult.
33:55
Jessica: Exactly.
33:55
Jessica: Once you're 18, you're a volunteer.
33:58
Jessica: Like, so stop showing up and volunteering for it.
34:02
Jessica: If you don't want to be a victim anymore, then don't be a victim anymore.
34:06
Jessica: Right.
34:06
Jessica: And I, you know, she took, she like popped the error out of my balloon of blaming other people.
34:14
Jessica: She was basically saying to me, take responsibility for your life.
34:18
unknown: Right.
34:19
Jessica: You know, you're the one, you're the only one who can change you.
34:23
Jessica: You know, you have to be the one who takes the steps.
34:25
Jessica: You can't wait for your dad to get sober in order to have a happy life, because then you're relying on him, and people will always disappoint you.
34:34
Jessica: Oh, yeah.
34:35
Jessica: Yeah, the only one who's not going to disappoint me is God.
34:39
Jessica: Only one.
34:41
Jessica: And so so what I learned and what I've learned over the years, and I actually have several chapters in the book where I talk about dying to a different part of myself.
34:52
Jessica: Because it's not a for me, it's not a once and done thing.
34:56
Jessica: It's it's you know, like because new things keep getting revealed.
35:01
Jessica: You know, I keep seeing like first it first it was the food and the alcohol, right?
35:05
Jessica: I had to put those things down.
35:07
Jessica: And believe me, when you've used them for 29 years, to it is hard.
35:13
Jessica: But I can tell you that it's been 25 years since I've had sugar at all.
35:18
Cassandra: Oh, wow.
35:20
Jessica: I mean, other than in in a piece of fruit, sure, you know, or in a vegetable.
35:24
Jessica: I I don't like sugar.
35:26
Jessica: And if you'd have told me that was possible when I first started, I would have said, You're nuts.
35:31
Jessica: There's no way.
35:32
Jessica: You know, but here I am, you know, and so so that was the first thing.
35:37
Jessica: But then it becomes I have to die to my selfishness, I have to die to my judgment of others.
35:44
Jessica: I have to just so all the little pieces of me, I always think of them as barnacles.
35:48
Jessica: I'm a boat and I'm sailing through the water.
35:51
Jessica: And the more barnacles I have on me, the slower I'm gonna sail, right?
35:55
Jessica: And it's gonna hold me back and I'm gonna get stuck on stuff.
35:59
Jessica: So I've got to chip those barnacles off.
36:01
Jessica: And with each one of those, I I love in in the book, one of my chapters is called The Death of Perfect Knowledge, Jessica.
36:11
Jessica: Because I spent so much time while I was in seminary.
36:15
Jessica: This this came in my last year of seminary when I recognized that everything I had just learned doesn't mean diddly squat when it comes to me and Jesus sitting down together.
36:30
Jessica: Okay, you know, and yes, it's wonderful to learn all that.
36:36
Jessica: And I love that I know it and I keep going.
36:38
Jessica: I love to study, I'm a lifelong learner, right?
36:40
Jessica: Yeah.
36:41
Jessica: I'm still in the books, you know.
36:42
Jessica: But when it's me face to face with Jesus, he doesn't give a crap if I know the order of the books in the Bible.
36:51
Jessica: I really don't think he does.
36:52
Jessica: Right.
36:54
Cassandra: So tell him listens.
36:56
Cassandra: What does he give a crap about if it's not that?
37:00
Jessica: He gave he cares about my heart.
37:02
Jessica: He cares about, you know, I think he I I picture me and Jesus sitting on the beach looking at the water together and just talking and just talking about my life, talking about what he did for me.
37:16
Jessica: He cares about, you know, what do I think of my neighbor?
37:20
Jessica: What do I think, you know, what am I doing for the people around me?
37:24
Jessica: What am I doing?
37:25
Jessica: Because I can't save the world, right?
37:28
Jessica: I don't have that power.
37:29
Jessica: I can't I can vote for a president, but I can't make a president a president, right?
37:34
Jessica: But what can I do your partner of the world?
37:38
Jessica: You know, and for me, sometimes that's just praying for people, yeah.
37:43
Jessica: You know, because some people don't want to hear the truth, that's right, but I can pray for them.
37:48
Cassandra: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
37:50
Cassandra: It's kind of like as Jesus says, pick up your cross and follow me.
37:55
Cassandra: Yes, yeah, do what he does.
37:58
Jessica: Exactly.
37:58
Jessica: What did he do?
37:59
Jessica: And that's the thing that drives me crazy.
38:02
Jessica: You know, when I hear people talk about like, yes, Jesus was all about peace, he was also about turning over the tables in the temple when people were messing with God.
38:13
Cassandra: Yes, he did.
38:14
Jessica: So, you know, he it wasn't like he was sitting back and letting people walk all over him, right?
38:19
Jessica: You know, he was being honest about what he saw and he didn't like it.
38:23
Jessica: So there are times when I feel like I do need to say things outright that some people don't want to hear, you know.
38:31
Jessica: But exactly that's a part of following him.
38:34
Cassandra: Well, that's great because all that you said, you have to have a personal relationship.
38:39
Cassandra: I mean, sitting on the beach, I mean, you wouldn't sit on the beach with somebody you don't know, right?
38:44
Cassandra: So, you know, it's it's all personal.
38:47
Cassandra: Talk about your neighbors, you know, um, because your secret is safe with him because he knows what your secret is.
38:54
Cassandra: And in you, you know, we we talk about um dying to self, and you talked about um no longer judging yourself or judging others, uh, because God says that not to judge others, because then you'll be judged, right?
39:12
Cassandra: And so it sounds like, and for my listeners, to the the things that they want to do, it's certain things that you knew that God was leading and guiding you to seminary, even even your uh what you went through as a as a young person.
39:31
Cassandra: Look what he did, you know.
39:33
Cassandra: Um, even Paul, for those who read the Bible, know half of it is about him in jail, right?
39:40
Cassandra: I mean, just think about the things that he did.
39:42
Cassandra: He was a mascot, he was crucified, he was he was oh my gosh, he was all against Jesus, but he had a personal moment when he fell off that horse and got blind, right?
39:55
Cassandra: Um so um I wanted us to talk about a minute about um eschatology, which is like death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and humankind.
40:09
Cassandra: So you studied that as well.
40:12
Jessica: Yeah, what happened was um eschatology is just the you break down the the etymology of the word and it's and it's the study of the end times.
40:23
Jessica: So it's a big word for a big idea, I guess you could say.
40:27
Jessica: Um, and there are in theological circles, there's a lot of different ideas about what that means, like what did the end times mean?
40:37
Jessica: Um, but what people are most familiar with is is what's called apocalyptic eschatology, which would be the book of Revelation.
40:45
Jessica: Like it's a it's a prophecy about the future.
40:48
Jessica: This is what's gonna happen, and it's gonna be a complete transformation of everything that you think you know.
40:54
Jessica: Okay.
40:55
Jessica: And so um I when that's why it wasn't weird to me when this idea came to me for a personal eschatology to be also a thing when I was sitting in the class where we were discussing revelation, because it was like it was just right here, you know, and then I was I was thinking and and and I remember that.
41:18
Jessica: And when I went to the professor and I said, you know, what about this idea?
41:23
Jessica: You know, like what about if it was just and he suggested that I um I do just an individual study first on eschatology and learn all the different forms that are accepted and uh among academic circles and that sort sort of thing.
41:40
Jessica: And so I did that with him, and then when I was about to write my thesis, because I yeah, I was definitely gonna go for it.
41:48
Jessica: I was I was gonna go for it and I was gonna, and I said to him when we were done, I want you to be my advisor for my thesis.
41:54
Jessica: Oh and then he left the next year.
41:58
Jessica: He got a new job and he left.
42:00
Jessica: And before he left, he came to me and he said, Look, I know you wanted to write your thesis with me, but I have already talked to, and then he named the professor that he talked to, which I have never had for a class, but he was also the dean of the seminary, and I was freaking out that he already talked to him about me because there's this like crazy smart guy, right?
42:26
Jessica: And he said, and he's he would love to work, I think he would love to work with you on this because it's a fascinating idea.
42:34
Jessica: And what happened in in that time when I was working with him on that thesis, which is where the book comes from, um I he he steered me towards um the apostle Paul, uh, the story of Lazarus, uh, the raising of Lazarus, and Nicodemus.
42:57
Jessica: And we studied those together, and I wrote, and they're all in the book, Higher Powered, because I used a lot of what I wrote um for my thesis.
43:08
Jessica: I used in this book.
43:09
Jessica: And it's basically what happens to a person during their personal eschatology is they were this way, okay?
43:18
Jessica: They were right here, they were this way, and they were moving along, and right about here they met Jesus, okay, right?
43:25
Jessica: And now they're this way, you know, and sometimes it takes longer for some people, right?
43:31
Jessica: Sometimes people go right there, you know, like but for me it was very uh sort of awakening over time transformation type thing, and so I use those three stories from the Bible, and then I weave my own uh personal eschatology through through all of that and the dying of myself as I'm going along with him.
43:55
Cassandra: Yeah.
43:55
Cassandra: Wow, we gotta get that book.
43:57
Cassandra: Sounds amazing.
43:59
Cassandra: You know, um, Jessica, I could talk to you all day, but I I would love for you to give a word to my listeners who are really struggling, who are stuck, they know there's something else that they should be doing, but they cannot.
44:16
Cassandra: Um, they're looking, even now that you've spoken, some of them probably are looking to explore and deepen their relationship with God.
44:25
Cassandra: What would you encourage them to do?
44:27
Cassandra: Give them some spiritual direction.
44:34
Jessica: Well, you know what?
44:35
Jessica: I would say that if you want a personal relationship with Jesus, get personal with him.
44:43
Jessica: You know, sit down and uh tell him what you're really feeling because he already knows.
44:52
Jessica: But you know, I I really think he wants to hear it from us.
44:57
Jessica: I think that you know, we think we have to go to him in a certain way, you know, we think we have to pray the right way, or you know, say the right words, or I found that the best prayers um or the prayers I would say that gave me the most relief that have come out of me have been ones that were real short, like, could you just help me?
45:22
Jessica: Because I don't even know what I need right now.
45:25
Jessica: Yeah, you know, and and he he does, he knows exactly what I need.
45:30
Jessica: You know, and when I sit there and I give him a laundry list of things, God, give me courage, give me this, give me that.
45:38
Jessica: Well, maybe I don't need those things.
45:40
Jessica: Maybe right now, all I need is an openness.
45:43
Jessica: Maybe I need to remove, you know, when the scales fall from Paul's eyes, yeah, maybe the scales need to fall from my eyes.
45:51
Jessica: Yeah, yeah.
45:52
Jessica: You know, and and only he knows that.
45:55
Jessica: So I would say if you're struggling and you want a personal relationship with him, get honest with him.
46:01
Jessica: Write him a letter that you're never gonna send, you know, or I I mean, I used to do that all the time in early recovery, and I would yell at God.
46:12
Jessica: I I I had letters that were like the paper was ripped because I was leaning so hard on the paper because I was so angry.
46:19
Jessica: You know, but that's you gotta get real.
46:23
Jessica: You gotta get real and stop trying to do it right, just do it.
46:27
Cassandra: I love that.
46:28
Cassandra: I love that, Jessica.
46:31
Cassandra: Thank you.
46:32
Cassandra: Please tell my listeners how they can get first of all.
46:36
Cassandra: You have some beautiful blogs.
46:38
Cassandra: I would encourage my listeners to read your blogs.
46:42
Cassandra: Um, the psalm of my heart for the month of July, I just thought was so special and so so precious.
46:50
Cassandra: So tell them how they can get in touch with you.
46:56
Jessica: Anything you want to find out about me, you can do through my website.
47:00
Jessica: It's just uh my name with my middle initial, jessica lmorris.com.
47:05
Jessica: And everything, my books are on there, spiritual direction information is there.
47:09
Jessica: There's a contact form, my blog is there if you want to follow it.
47:12
Jessica: Um so yeah, everything you need is right there.
47:16
Cassandra: All right.
47:16
Cassandra: Okay, okay.
47:18
Cassandra: Well, one of the things I share with my listeners as I'm signing off, Jessica, I want to thank you for your wisdom, your insight, and just what you've been through and your openness about it for individuals to see that nothing's too hard for God.
47:35
Cassandra: If if you're stuck or you know it's something you want to do, like like like I do, I seek him.
47:42
Cassandra: I I always one of my prayers was help me Jesus.
47:45
Cassandra: You know, I would just just seek him.
47:48
Cassandra: And um I I just, you know, again, thank you for your openness because that awareness and being open sometimes is really half the battle.
47:59
Cassandra: Because a lot of people real private, you don't tell at all, but you tell enough to see people that that you're human and and you've gone through things, but look at you now.
48:08
Cassandra: So I say to you, thank you.
48:11
Cassandra: I say to my listeners, God bless you, and bye for now.
48:16
Cassandra: Again, thank you very much.
48:18
Jessica: Thank you, Cassandra.
48:20
Jessica: God bless.
48:21
Cassandra: Yes.