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Should Democrats Recapture the Flag? Thoughts on Patriotism · Boomer Has It!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Jim Jelanis in New York.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm JB Miller in London.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this is Boomer Has It.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Today's topic is patriotism.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would say maybe you would too.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: We've just passed what would normally be peak patriotism with the Sasquicentennial of the U.S., not the Sasquatch Centennial.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's 250 years of Uncle Sam, Yankee Doodle Dandy, and the Stars and Stripes.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: But this year, a lot of people on the left have questioned the very idea of patriotism, arguing that it, along with the flag, represents the represents the worst of our country, namely Trump and MAGA.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if Trump and MAGA have indeed stolen the flag from us, is it time to steal it back?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't Democrats be patriotic and fly the stars and stripes or even wear them?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any thoughts on this, Mr.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Miller?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do have some thoughts on this.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just the recent, uh, see if I can pronounce this correctly, Sesquicol, um, has brought it um, you know, into uh some relief.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think patriotism for some people has always seemed a bit suspect.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Samuel Johnson famously called it the last refuge of a scoundrel.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the Stars and Stripes has been trotted out during times of war, used to whip up um, you know, support.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think a lot of what we think of as our patriotic iconography, like well, it's the Stars and Tripes is uh has been our flag since the beginning, although it's uh changed with a you know increasing number states, etc.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the iconography, I think, of Yankee Doodle, Dandy, and Uncle Sam was developed, according to my research, just after the Civil War to try to bring the nation back together, to have a sense of uh of unity.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So in that sense, it always had a a kind of a um uh there's a reason behind it, um not quite not quite about nationalism, but certainly about you know a sense of unity.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, you know, uh it's interesting because we're we're talking about patriotism now, but there's another kind of a strange word that describes a certain kind of patriotism, and it goes back to the British Empire, and that's the word jingoism, which is jingo, doesn't sound very English to me.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just for the sake of level setting with our audience, jingoism is a kind of a harsh form of patriotism that involves coercion, discrimination, harsh judgment against anyone who's not perceived to be appropriately patriotic.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it goes back, according to my research, uh to the Russian-Turkish war.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was pressure for the English fleet to get involved.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a song that you used the phrase by jingo.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: We have the we have the manpower and we have the funds, hence the word jingoism, which I think wouldn't be unfair to say is um is is what we experience in the United States right now.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I've always associated jingoism with sort of war enthusiasm.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um we have experienced that back in uh we can talk about this further, but the um the Iraq war, um, there's a lot of jingoism.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: There hasn't been jingoism around the um Iran war because uh hardly anyone supports, but um getting back to the idea of jingoism and patriotism.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I haven't yeah, I guess some people would uh do do re do define patriotism in the way maybe some other people would define uh jingoism.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what is that what you were talking about?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's um it's interesting you bring up the Iraq war because children gather around.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: There was a cataclysmic attack on the United States called 9-11 once.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember you and I were on the phone, and it was around the time that our president and his staff uh in the West Wing were trotting out the American flag kind of aggressively, and it felt uncomfortable for some of us.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we felt I think we felt that um we had a certain ownership of that event 9-11, because it happened in our city.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously there was also attack on the Pentagon, and there was a plane that that was forced down.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I felt as a New Yorker that uh President George W.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Bush um yeah, co-opted patriotism for his own means.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, is that what you're talking about?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is that that's what I I remember we had a conversation back then before some of you were born, that um we talked about what flag would we use.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking we could use the New York State flag, or I think New York City has a flag, and it features prominently a beaver, which is sort of a magisterial rodent, and I'm all for it.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Majesty or rodent.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as seen in uh uh Astor place um subway stop because the Astros made their fortune from from beaver beaver furs originally.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I'll I'll quote I'll quote a line from Succession.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: His Majesty the Beaver, the the king of all rodents.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, is that from Succession?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't get that.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's when Tom was talking about spinach.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, but that the that series that keeps on giving us quote after quote, the quotable series.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I remember I remember that time very well, and it was very disturbing.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember us talking about to could could uh could New Yorkers use their own flag, the New York State or the New York City flag.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: It never happened.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: No one sort of uh followed through on that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I guess partly because no few people in the country could identify that flag.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe even New Yorkers could identify that flag.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a very attractive, I can't remember right there.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I guess there's a beaver on the New York State flag.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're saying?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's what I'm saying.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jim, we're old enough to remember the bicentennial in 1976.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: What do you remember patriotism then 50 years ago?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: I remember it being a big event.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Our president was Gerald Ford.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I remember lots of fireworks displays, but no.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um nothing nothing concrete comes to mind.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: What about you?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I remember it being a fairly patriotic time, although not everyone felt that way.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: There was still some residual cynicism from the Vietnam War, uh, which had only uh just been uh angled about a year before, and of course the Watergate crisis and the resignation of Nixon.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a real counterculture.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've discussed the counterculture in the in the previous pod, and that was still going pretty strong in 1976.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't remember people feeling ashamed of the flag um so much.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do you?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: I just certainly don't remember that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think by that time, 1976, the war had been over for about what?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, only two years.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a year, a year or two.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I I remember during the war that it was Americans weren't welcome in Europe necessarily.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of cynicism and and hostility.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I remember feeling, you know, I was a young, I was young, I was 16.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I remember feeling a little inferior to Europeans and to the rest of the world for that reason.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I can I can add a little uh anecdote.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was uh briefly in in a British boarding school when I was 13.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was uh one of only um two Americans in the whole school, and I hung as stars and stripes uh over my behind my bed in my dorm room, and uh and I went to think back on that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I never I would have done that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh I I'm surprised I did that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I was obviously proud enough to be American that I wanted everyone to know about it, and um I think it labeled me in a way.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think um America was necessarily um looked down upon or you know um vilified.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: This was in 1973.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think of, I mean, the the the the major cultural aspect of those days was is music.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most of the music we were listening to was British.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can't think of what uh American music people were listening to then.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't even have music on my side.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you were saying you're basically admitting you were a young jingoist in a British boarding school.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I had a little I had a little Stars and Tribes flag in a uh I think I've kept it.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I have it now in my flat or on my desk.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just maybe to remind myself or remind my children that they're half American.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm not ashamed to be American at all.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And my uh much I would like to get uh British citizenship, but I'd never give up uh my American citizenship.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, good for you.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've always felt patriotic, let's put it that way.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I you know I was in Europe recently in Spain, and uh I spoke to three Spaniards when they found out I was from New York, um, they ventured to say and express their admiration for our mayor, Zaran Mamdani.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he's a global figure.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And two of those three went out of their way to say they didn't like our government.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're you know, we it it's a reminder that we're on the world stage, um, as we were in other, you know, other important times in the US.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: But um yes.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, that that's I I'm patriotic because I can separate the flag from from the government.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: To me, the flag represents the country, not the president, not Congress.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: It represents the country, so it represents all of us.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I and um there are people have have labeled the flag as a symbol of racism, homophobia, capitalism.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the flag represents all of that.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think it represents the country, you know, warts and all.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: There represents the entire history, 250 years of an ongoing project, which is imperfect, but is worth continuing with.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it the country does, the constitution does give its citizens far more freedoms than they'd have in most other countries in the world.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's no constitution here in the UK.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have a First Amendment here in the UK, you don't have freedom, you don't have a document that declares freedom of expression, freedom of the press um here in the well, you're at odds then with a big part of our population that doesn't want warts.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: They want they want a full dermatological um improvement on the the image of the United States.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think uh the Trump administration, someone from the Trump administration issued a 158-page report against you know uh uh taking offense at the Smithsonian Institute for whatever reasons.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: It so that's part of the part of the culture war we've been talking about.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk earnestly and honestly about the United States with you know warts and all?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now you made an interesting point that one of our one of our um early dissidents abby hoffman showed up to the House Un American Activities Committee Commission uh at a hearing, which I didn't even know was still in existence in the 60s.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there was something about something about him the way he was dressed.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it was in it was in 1968, at the height of his infamy and his fame, and um he showed up at a Hugh Ackhaus uh American Activities Committee meeting uh hearing wearing a Stars and Stripes shirt.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of photographs you can find of this online, and he was arrested, or he was cited, he was arrested for I think defacing the flag or something.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh the case was thrown out two years later.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: These things take forever.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because one, because of freedom of the expression, but also because the the shirt hadn't been sewn from a cut-up flag.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: That was one of one of I think one of the reasons he was in the the case was thrown out.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um yeah, I thought that was I thought that was a great moment because he was essentially saying, you know, he he the flag represented him as well.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was inclusive of that.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: So well, that's what I'm all I'm all for.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I the uh you you cited the um the Smithsonian that's uh been the the Trump and his minions, MAGA minions are trying to censor uh a huge aspect of American history.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's worrisome, it's annoying, it's uh an awful thing, but uh this too shall pass.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um, you know, I think in five years, ten years, I think we'll be hopefully uh beyond that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was as far as as far as the the the the flag in clothes, there was a really interesting article you may have seen in the Washington Post about a designer called Kimberly Gordon, whose company Selke um recently came out with a line of women's clothes with a stars and stripes theme.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh she's left of center, very much left of center, and she got huge pushback for this from people on the left.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um there was all these comments on the article that were you know really anti what she was uh doing, and um and that was when people were you know have felt that the flag was some people or one person at least they said that flag was a symbol of racism, homophobia, and capitalism.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I thought that was interesting.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're talking about, what so what you're talking about is um a a little bit different.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an attack from the left on someone left of center uh for using the flag.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And what what's your take on that?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's giving up the symbol of the flag, that's declaring defeat in these what this war of of patriotism.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't be a war, it shouldn't be, you know, that's people on the left just um allowing the right to co-op the symbols of patriotism, it's declaring defeat, and I find that frustrating, to be honest.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now I I looked at Selkie, the the website, um the designer Kimberly Gordon's creation.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're kind of the it's an it's called an inclusive brand, which means anyone can wear it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like Chanel, where you have to be five feet tall and 105 pounds.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um any any body type can be in a Selkie creation.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: The the clothes are flouncy, they're multi-layered with lace.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw I saw the flag inspired creations, and they were they were interesting.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: They were it was it looked like um fatigued fabric, almost like Betsy Ross's flag that had been flying over Fort Sumter and decided to repurpose it.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was criticized by some people as being uh sort of antibellum, pre-Civil War.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think that's fair.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it would cover that entire period, both Civil War and post-Civil War.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: That was the it it mimics maybe fashion of that of that era.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that's um that's purposefully trying to put it into sort of racial uh terms, which I don't which she wasn't intending at all.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's interesting because this other point you've made is that is this is the flag a symbol of oppression?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And can we really can we really um it i is it is it un unreasonable for someone who's oppressed to feel that way?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well I'll get in trouble for saying yes, I think it is unreasonable.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: But but that's it's I mean, that's just that's just assuming that's just putting a a a label, a definition, an interpretation on something.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's politicized.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's politicizing the flag, which is exactly what I would want to get away from, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I want to historicize, rehistoricize the flag.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I and and I I believe enough in America to um believe, and this is totally contrary to what Bush uh what Trump has lately been trying to do with the uh Smithsonian Museum, which is confront our history, confront our past, and let the flag represent this.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a project.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: America is a project, it's not perfect, it's not finished.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have we've had a what how many amendments to the constitution?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: What not 20?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I should know this, 22, it's something like that.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: 25, no?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that the 25th is the one everyone's clamoring for?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, so you know, that's a that that uh to me that suggests it's a good constitution that's constantly going uh you know, undergoing improvement.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's under it's under it's still a friend of mine has once said, it's a it's a living, it's a living document.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a living unlike the Bible, right?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: We don't rewrite the Bible.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a living document.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have that here in the uh in the UK.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, the UK has had issues with uh flag representation itself.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh luckily not with the Union Jack, which is um a big part of popular culture here.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was a famous photograph of uh Pete Townsend wearing a uh Union Jack um uh a jacket when he's performing with the Who, and then in the 1990s, the Spice Girls um use the Union Jack.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the but the flag of England, which is um uh has been seen a lot lately because of England and the in the World Cup.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You see that flag, but that has been that you know that's just a symbol of the England too.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: But here politically, the England flag uh has been co-opted by the right way.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: It has a St.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: George that was crossed.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just more to get more specific about the the English flag, we call it the Union Jack, you call it the Union Jack, like we refer to uh our flag as old glory.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually, I think you pointed out it's it has a biblical reference, St.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Charles Cross.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: The England flag is the St.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: George's Cross.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: St.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: George's Cross.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a white, it's a it's a uh red cross on a white background.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's the so what is the Union Jack?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you have two flags?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: The Union Jack is the flag for uh Britain, so it represents the uh four nations in uh I see Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what about the Jolly Roger?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: What does that one represent?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you still use that one?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: The pirate flag.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: The pirate flag.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say I haven't seen that so much lately.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: But is it the St.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: George's Cross has been uh politicized, uh, I think even more than the The Stars of Stripes has in the states, because I think uh there are people on the left who wouldn't touch the St.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: George.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: You would not members of the Labour Party would not hang a St.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: George's Cross England flag outside their house.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, I think there are Democrats who are still flying the Stars and Stripes.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that fair?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then then there's the flag in distress, the upside down flag, which both sides in the US have claimed, including A Supreme Court justice uh at his at his sec at his second home.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I've I've, you know, uh why so it's it's it's a sort of an interesting mirror uh image of our emotional states is that you know the the the regime in power thinks that the country's in crisis, and meanwhile uh those of us not in MAGA think that the country's in crisis too.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's there's some sorting that needs to happen.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jim, can I ask you, would you fly the American clad?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Would you would you fly it outside your your flat?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know what?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I would.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm and I you know, as this conference conversation continues, there are reasons why I should.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I I'm I have the reaction that a lot of other people have is I look at it and I just I just feel disgust.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I realize that's it's sad.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're a hypocrite because you felt disgust too around our 9-11 conversation, where I would disgust is a strong word, but we both felt uncomfortable because there was a cry to march into Iraq.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and the flag was a pretty important part of that discussion.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was a symbolic graphic representation of that discussion after 9-11.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It yeah, that's a very good point.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it all happened so fast um that I didn't think we had much, you know, recourse at that point.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh with time, uh maybe we have more recourse, you know, and maybe that's what Kimberly Gordon was trying to do, you know, trying to um take the flag back for the left.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't think we should uh concede that ground.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, after my 9-11, it was such a it was such a sudden event, you know, you can remember that period, but it all happened so fast, and we weren't prepared for.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that they I felt the loss of the Stars of Stripes on, you know, in sort of real time.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now I feel slightly different, uh, differently about it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh maybe time is more on our side, maybe also because uh Trump's numbers are going down, his popularity is sinking, uh, people are beginning to recognize people who formerly thought MAGA was a good thing or Trump is a good thing or are reconsidering, maybe now is the time to take the flat back.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a is it a time-related issue, perhaps?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it is a time-related issue.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I will say this.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I if I watch footage of protests in Minneapolis, in New Jersey, uh in front of Delaney Hall, I always see a protester with an American flag.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So good on them.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Good on them.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and it and it's in and it's in full, it's in proper context, too, I would say.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you say that's a different context from you flying the flag outside your your apartment.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or hosting people for a barbecue on July 4th.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh would I have a you know, flag on a poll, and um, you know, the context is a little ambiguous.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're protesting ice or the rule of law, or what's what you know, the declining rule of law in this country, and you've got a flag there, that's a pretty strong context, I'd say.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's contextual.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting answer, because I think the flag is the flag.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: We should be able to fly whenever we want.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I I totally agree with you that uh right, you know, holding up the flag or wearing the flag at an uh anti-ICE rally is a is a potent political symbol, but it shouldn't be the flag shouldn't be reserved for the left just under those circumstances.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: You should be able to fly the flag whenever you want.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And your message are.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I it's interesting because you've you've pointed out a a documentary.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and on the heels of Pride Month, uh, it's it's timely, although the documentary was released last July at 2024.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: We mentioned to our listeners and gearers what the documentary is.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, it's better if I if I read it, read something to you.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a documentary produced by the the jewelry designer Alexis Pitar and a producer named Bruce Cohen, who has a number of Hollywood feature films uh in his portfolio.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it features 50 LGBTQ luminaries.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very hard-hitting opener.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: We see public and non-public figures contemplating handheld flags, the kind you might get at a July 4th party.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're expressing ambivalence.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them are teary-eyed.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the narration says we sat down with some of our leaders of the LGTBTQ community to hear their thoughts.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you see these mixed emotions, silence, faces we recognize, faces we don't recognize, having some strong emotions, and then the narration, the tire title card comes up and it says, Reclaim the flag.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I found that very hard hitting.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hard hitting in what way?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: In the hard hitting in that one of the first, one of the first subjects of the documentary, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's a lineary, linear, uh, lineary presentation of public, non-public figures talking about their reaction to the flag.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And here's one of them.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: When you walk past a house that has an American flag staked in the yard, your immediate thought as a queer person is I am not welcome here.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: That it's a sign of bigotry and it's a sign of fear.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean uh I mean some people might respond to that saying where where would they feel more welcome than in uh this in a lot of places in America, you know.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: You would feel more welcome?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, where where in the world would those people feel more welcome than in certain cities in America?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh I well, I you know, there is an LGT LGBTQ plus flag, and there are places where people on the in the LGBDQ plus community are more welcome in than others, and I would say in cities generally.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: You'd you'd feel safer.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And here in London is a much more gay-friendly LGBTQ plus friendly environment than maybe uh some other parts of the country in the country, same in the US.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um well the the video is 30 minutes long, and I highly recommend it.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, maybe that's my headquake is you had you had mentioned it, and I actually took the time to watch 30 minutes of it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's really moving.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are, like I said, names you you recognize, names you don't.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Karine Jean-Pierre, you know, the former uh spokesperson for the Biden administration, Jonathan Capart, the journalist, Jim Parsons, the actor, George Takai shows up seated.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Who's George Takai?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he was just Sulu from Star Trek, my science fiction ignoring friend.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I thought that's who he was.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I just wasn't sure.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And here and here's another one.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: John Cameron Mitchell.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know that actor?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: He was of course he did.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they he did that uh musical uh what was Edwig and the Angry Inch, and you see him in a lot of you see him, he's a great actor.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: His father was the military commander of West Berlin before the wall came down.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I used to run it to him at a cafe in the West Village back in the day.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: John Cameron Mitchell, who was a local and uh the editor of paper magazine named Mickey Boardman.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember him.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I was a freelancer calling him and pitching articles, which he declined because you know, I just I'm just not that cool.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: But uh he he actually breaks into tears.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And here's another quote loud.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Were there any you know it's it's really terrific?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Here's it uh Isaac Mizrahi.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: He says, I swear to you, I was part of a committee of people who did this event for Obama when he was running.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the event, I said to someone, Should we should we salute the flag?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because there was a flag.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Should we all recite the Pledge of Allegiance?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, What?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Why?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why is pledging allegiance any only like a sort of right wing thing?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's something we need to own.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: We need to own this damn flag.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: You you brought up John Ossoff, remember from a recent yeah, tell us about that because you you're the one who pointed that out.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we have to give credit to Michelle Goldberg at the New York Times, who made a very canny um video demonstration.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: But she brought in John Ossoff because he speaks a kind of well anti-authoritarian language.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just remind people who who John Ossoff is.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's a senator from Georgia, uh, you know, a state that is you know pretty red, except for around Atlanta.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: It won it won Trump Trump Hearts Mega Minds.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's a and he happens to be a Democrat.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he opens his speeches by saying, Who here is attending because they love our country?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes on to say, call, you know, just basically to to call it uh, you know, an unblemished accusations.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, accusations, not the right word.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh observations about the party in power, their crooks.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Disney call them patriots.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: You say, or are are there are there patriots here today?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are there patriots here?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And every and the crowd cheers, and it's electrifying.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I want to hear.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear more of that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John Osloff.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: More of that, yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, Joan, I mean, Joan Ossoff might be the man, and she she makes uh an analogy to Peter Magyar, M A-G-Y-A-R, the new president of Hungary, uh, who who beat Victor Orban against all odds.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Using the same, using the same techniques, yes, taking back the flag, taking back love of country, calling them, calling them out for what they are, crooks, the Mar-a-Lago mafia, uh unvarnished, unblemished uh observations about what this country's facing in its next election.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so by the way, and she put out the word Magyar means Hungarian.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh fortuitous if that's if your name is it's as if it was John Stars and Stripes or something.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Along those lines.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Senator Yankee Doodle Dandy.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but I'm all for that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all for reclaiming patriotism.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it be great if patriotism could represent um you know anti-corruption, um, anti oligarchs, anti-uh anti-bigotry?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Anti-bigotry, absolutely, anti-racism, anti-data center in our neighborhood, you know, um it why can't the left uh take back this those symbols?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: John Osloff, I think, has got the right idea.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all for that.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I just I think it's an evolving journey that um has you know we have yet to see the outcome of it, but it's it's it's it's a very strong, very attractive um position to political position to take.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it means you're not playing defense like the Democrats have been doing for a long time.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Can't blame them entirely because they're out of power, uh, but there certainly is a lot of restlessness in the electorate.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: There is when you hear someone talk like that kind of strength, yeah.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of clarity, it's very refreshing.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was also instructive that Trump usurped the sequicentennial um celebrations in Washington, D.C.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: uh it was supposed to be America 250, and he made it into Freedom 250, which took all the money away from the uh congressionally mandated um group that was supposed to organize the the celebrations.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a largely, I think, a lot a largely a complete dud.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and so uh that was meant to be full of patriotic fervor, the nation's um what was it, um, country fair or state fair, the state fair of the nation, and they couldn't get anyone to show up for you know for their concert, and uh it was too hot.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was sort of a dud.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think um maybe that didn't help the right wing um, you know, keep hold of the uh patriotic symbols, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just noticed that.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my friend, I think you're just reading honest news, and there's tens of millions of people who are reading news that fits their worldview and they see it another way.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: But call me cynical.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Call me cynical.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're cynical.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: I told you not to call me that.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're right, if you're never correct, you are cynical.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know they're all watching Fox News, which is like what claiming that it was a big, huge turnout and it didn't rain, and um and everyone had a great time.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, do you have a headquake?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: My headquake is the film, Take Back the Wait Reclaim the Flag by Alexis Bitar and Bruce Cohen.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's available on YouTube, it's worth watching.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Worth checking, yeah.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: So my headquake is I have a friend here in London called Michael, who's almost 83, and he doesn't have a television or a laptop.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So he's been listening to the World Cup matches on the radio on Ray BBC Radio 5.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I tried it and it takes some getting used to.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, this is how everyone used to listen to sports, and here in England, it goes back to, and I looked this up, January 22nd, 1927.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So almost a hundred years ago, the first football match was broadcast on the radio, and so my friend Michael is still listening, he's still experiencing his sport that way, and it it and uh I guess there are a lot of other people who do it because there's coverage specifically on Radio 5 here.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's covering that's that's brilliant.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember growing up, gather round children.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: I remember growing up and having um, you know, listening to the Pittsburgh Pirates on an AM radio or or we're having it serenade us throughout throughout the house.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's and I remember a few a few years ago I was in I was on on Fire Island, and we have a octogenarian friend named Fran, and she has the Mets game on in the house.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: No TV, she's listening to the Mets.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a different experience.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's a Mets fan.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: They have to fill the airtime.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have when you watch it, the commentators can't talk all the time, but on the radio, they do.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: They have to fill that space.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's very odd listening to it that way.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, but that same friend of mine, Michael, was happened to be on Savile Row, just off Region Street in the West End on January 30th, 1969, when he heard some music playing from a nearby rooftop.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, yes, yes, he heard the last Beatles concert, the famous rooftop concert.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was there on the street.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Holy cow!
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he said everyone on the street knew exactly who was playing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: They you know hadn't been announced, but they recognized, and the music wasn't familiar because the album hadn't been released yet, but they all recognized the sound.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: They knew it was the Beatles when they stood on the sidewalk, staring up, trying to figure out which building it was because they couldn't see them, but they could hear them.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did he take out his iPhone and record the crowd reactions on the street?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've we did that's in the film.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can see some of the crowd reactions on the movie, and I I've looked at that footage to see if I can cat if I can see him in that footage.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I haven't I found someone I thought might be him.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not if it was, but he was there January 30th, 1969.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful, and a well-deserved headquake.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is thank you, sir.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: This has been Boomer Has It.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jim Jelamis in Brooklyn.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am Jaden Miller in London.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.