Latest / WoT Spoilers / Darkness in the Tower - Towers of Midnight chapter 37 - EP568

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Darkness in the Tower - Towers of Midnight chapter 37 - EP568 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Weed of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: It's just a weave.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: It's just a weave. The title of Darkness in the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Tower inappropriate. Definitely, it's just a weave.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's there is no other way to refer
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: to this event than it's just a weave. That is
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: the name of this event. It's so, so, very exciting.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad we're here. Like, yeah, the action sequences
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: go fast generally as a podcast, but I loved rereading this.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna love talking about it with you. I'm going
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: to love the edit of it. I'm going to be
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: excited that next week we're still in it. This is
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: just a good time. This is so Sandra Lancy and I, Oh,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: it's just so good.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: These are the moments where, you know, as much as
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I do complain about Sanderson and what he doesn't do,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: that Jordan does that, I'm very glad that he was
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the one who had to, you know, if Jordan couldn't
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: finish the books, Sanderson was able to craft these moments
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: that were very exciting, very much a payoff, very much
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: the resolution of some of the threads that Jordan had started.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: And it feels good to read this chapter.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just satisfying.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So this is something that I think Sanderson
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: does really well, the action sequences, the payoffs, you know,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: that's what he's good at. And this is really where,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I think Paren is starting to turn back around.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: We're done with the White Cloaks almost. Yeah, yeah, like
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: we still have to rescue them, but like the pain
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: part is done, right. Parent gets to be a hero again.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: He gets to have his own arc, he gets to
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: have his own agency. Even though he kind of sleeps
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: through the last battle, He's doing important things in his sleep.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: It's a very like the world of Dreams is his domain,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: whereas the battlefield is Matt's domain, and this sort of
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: world of the Dark One the Dark One's prison and
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: shale Ghoul dangerous rants. Right, so you have all three
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: sort of domains covered by the three boys, and so
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I get why he did that. I do kind of
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: wish Paren was on the battlefield more with his army, though.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, someone had to be in the dream kicking ass
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: and taken names, and Agwaang clearly couldn't be it for
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: nebulous reasons that are made unclear because I don't know
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: why she it's just this weird hole that's sort of
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: vaguely human shit, But I don't know who it is.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know her. But yeah, at this point, Sanderson's
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: PAREN is starting to get his legs under him. Yeah,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: he's starting to feel like less of an awkward amalgamation
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: of things that we don't care about and more of
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: like a cool wolf boy with dream powers. And he's
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: not Shortan's Paren, but he is at least to Pairen
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: with some growth arc and backstory that makes sense congruously
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: within the Sanderson version of him. And he's doing really
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: cool cool stuff against an ancient enemy of his. So yeah,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: he's out of his idea. He is definitely moving up
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: into cool space again.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: And so, as Sanderson has always tends to do, he's
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: starting his best chapter with a Gollin POV. Why too
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: much Golin? Too much Gollin?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Well, because that's what the chapter title is. Right, we
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: were saying that the chapter title is wrong. The chapter
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: title is with the reference to how Gowen is experiencing
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: all of this, and that's how we know what's wrong.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: So should I read us in? Do I want to
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: read us in? We haven't done what many reading lately.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: No, oh, because we're just cranky. I didn't think there
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: was much of a need for a reading because it's
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: just Gowan sort of, you know, spiraling around content. We
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: already know there's something interesting.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I mean him admitting to himself Elene was right. Much
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: of Gawain's hatred of Alphor came from frustration, maybe jealousy.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Right this moment where he admits to himself that he
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: wants to be doing what Rand's doing. He wants to
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: be leading, and sort of this realization that he comes
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: to right that he decides, you know what, you're right,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I'm being jealous, I'm being petty, I'm trying. I'm a
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: glory hound basically, and I'm doing the wrong thing. I
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: need to go to Agwayne, not as a prince seeking
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: my own destiny, but as a warder who's serving her,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and that's how I can help her. And in that
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: moment he has the ability to go help Agwayne by
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: being her servant. Even though the actions look the same
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: as they've been in the past. He's doing it for
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the right reasons and that's why it works out for him.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And then he goes and fucking attacks to Mandred and
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: sacrifices himself for no reason. And that's what my biggest
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: frustration with Gawain is is he has this moment of
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: growth here where he has the realization, I cannot be
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: a glory hound going out seeking accomplishments for myself without
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: the approval of my eyes. Said, I I am her warder,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: and my character growth is to obey her and do
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: what she needs. And then he goes out and becomes
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: a gloryhound seeking the glory of taking on Demondrad and
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: dies for it. And it's like, did you not have
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: this realization here on the page? Did I not read
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: that right?
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: And it's a good revelation because it even has this
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: lovely little twist of foreshadowy where he says, I have
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: to do her work from within her shadow, and then
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: he kicks ass in this battle by literally making the
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: room dark. Yeah, like her room, her shadow and that's
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: where he defends her from these creatures in the shadow.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And it's beautiful and it's beautiful. Yeah. If this was
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: the turn, if he was just an amazing shadow for
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: her the rest of the series and didn't do the
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Demondread thing, I don't know if we would be giving
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: him so much shit for the last year and a
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: half or however long that we just have been unrelenting
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: in this vibe. I feel like we would be giving
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: him a lot less shit if this had stuck. It's
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: really cool for these two chapters. It doesn't last. That's
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: the problem.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: And then maybe eggy On becomes a warder with him, right,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: and she has two warders.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: She would have been a green. Yeah, it's fine for
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: her to have multiple warters.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: That would have been great, right, So you know you
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: can fulfill that prophecy without killing him off. You can
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: have her have two badass warders to protect going forward,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: protect her going forward. Right. That link back to the
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Seawan Chan when she confronts Tuon again right two On
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: is like how do you know so much about this?
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And there's Eggyon and then talking to her shan chan
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: accent right.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Right, and then they can do like good cut bad
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: cop routines like both as wards, good word, bad water.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: It'd be great and oh god that moment, Oh yeah,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not eggy On and you called me Llewellyn right
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: like right.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yeah. So I truly think that all
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: the mistakes that go and mix up until this point
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: would be given a lot less weight, absolutely if he
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: had not made that choice later, because this is a
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: good realization. Yeah, he's gotten. It was slow to get there,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: but it's a good realization. He's finally there. If it
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: had stuck man man.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So he goes to a GWayne to tell her, Hey,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: I'm taking off. I'm going back to the White Tower
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: because I finally realized, you know, my purpose in life.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: And Brigitda is like, hold on, she's asleep. You're not
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: gonna wake her up. And he's like, well wake her
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: up and he's like, no, it's she's a sleep capital
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: a right. We are in the world of dreams. Shit's
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: going down. And he goes, oh, if a GWayne is
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: if Elaine is asleep, then Agwayne's asleep as well.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I think I said Agwayine earlier when I said yeah,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: he's going to I'll know what you meant. I'm so sorry.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I know I can't keep those two names straight.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Because Jordan was a diabolical monster.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: It really was, really was.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so funny too, or not funny, but
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: it's interesting because Elaine afterward thinks, Man, you should have
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: him in I wasn't able to go to sleep. I
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: wasn't able to even be there because I was having
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: pregnancy sleep issues, like I would have rather talked to him.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: If Burgita had known that Elaine had failed to go
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: to sleep and was not in fact at the meeting,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Gowin would have been leed in. He wouldn't have been
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: there right right, because he before the dome gets there, like,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: with no time to spare, which means any amount of
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: hanging out with Elane would have completely changed the trajectory
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: of history. A grain would have died, right, So you know,
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: on such small things does the world turn sometimes?
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: And we see this, there's this moment where it says,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: why the kinswoman let it vanish so abruptly and why
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: so dangerously? A split second sooner and would have taken
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: his foot off or worse, right, and that's the dome
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: going up. That's Paren jumping in with the dome shutting
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: down the gateway.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Yeah, Gawain thinks that the kinswoman was being
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: lazy and rushing to complete the job. No, no, no, no no,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: that was Paren metaphysically passing into an area of effect
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Sorry, And for a second, I was like is that
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Kin's woman Black Now, no, that's that's the parent of
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: the dome. And so this is we do get the like,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: this is the moment where no more, you know, the
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: doors are shut, nobody's coming in or out.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: The Boss Battle music has.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Boss Battle exactly exactly, and so we switched back to
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: a GWayne in the World of Dreams fighting that battle.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: That so there's two battles going on at once. Right,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: the Black Aja has jumped in and they are taking
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: the bait that Agwain has set up for them.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're more or less jumping into where the cliffhanger
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: from the last chapter was. Agwain hasn't engaged yet. She's
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: hopped down to a room and yelled report. So we're
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: more or less where we left off. But yeah, we
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: are mid battle, right. That was the thing was that
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: she didn't realize they were a mid battle until the
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: middle of the or the end of the last chapter.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: And now here we are, Okay, update, we're in the battle.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: What's happening and.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: The other battle that's taking places of course in the
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: real world around her sleeping body with the shan Chan
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: blood nine.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Read that's happening at this point because in this report,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: she gets the information that they've already tried to transfer out.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I believe that comes up in this POV. Yeah, yeah,
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: so that means that Gawa has made it into the
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: tower at this point. He is almost certainly actively dancing
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: the sword around her as this scene is going down.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they try and leave and can't, but
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: we're not really sure exactly when the barrier goes up, right.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, it's right, it's right here, like literally On
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: the next page, Agwan says goes some place safe away
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: from the city. They can't and then the wise ones
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: are there too, and they're like, oh yeah, we can't either.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: We can transfer within the tower, we can't transfer back
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: to the waste. This is something different, different And there's
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: a dome. Yeah, so that that is engaged here at
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: this point. So, yes, Agwan's body is actively mere inches
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: from being sliced this entire scene.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Right, And I kind of assume that you it looks
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: like you can wake up though, like the dome doesn't
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: keep it from working up, so you can't flee.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the skate patch, which is nice because it'd be
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: even creepier if you weren't able to wake up.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: From this, then we talk about two of the I
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: sid I who have died, Chavon and Carlinya.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Carlinya who got her hair burned off in a nightmare.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Shavon I don't remember anything distinguishing about she.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Has been around, but she's been one of those sort
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: of background is said I characters right introduced in the
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Path of Daggers.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't think she's done anything notable. But
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Carlinia is notable because her hair gets boiled off in
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: a pot of oil in that nightmare in the tower scene.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: It's very dramatic, sort of foreshadows Nina of getting her
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: braid burned off in the Test a little bit. Oh yeah,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: it's so wild. They go to her bedroom to confer.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: They're literally standing in the dream version of her bedroom
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: to confer, and at the same time, Gadwin is standing
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: in the same location desperately fending off the blood knives
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: as she sleeps like it's just oh the layers is
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: the dream world is a really trippy thing to play
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: with story device.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: It is. It's a really cool I just love the
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: way it's it's set up. Oh, one thing about Carlinya.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Men did have a viewing of raven tattoo floating by
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: her face, meaning she would be killed by a dark friend,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: which of course she is because she's killed by the
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Black Aja here. So that's a fulfillment of one of
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: men's visions.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: I thought that meant she was gonna get captured and
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: tattooed as property of the Empress. They didn't think of
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: making it and killed by a dark friend.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: But okay, you know that's ambiguous enough that I think
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the writer could have done it either way.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how dare their head canon not line up at huh?
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Right? Right?
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, she basically tells the team, you know, wake
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: or battle as you choose. The wise ones are like, hell, yes,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: let's fucking good, let's go. Wise ones are not gonna leave.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: They are here for battle. And yeah, she thinks, you know, hopefully,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: you know, we're trapped here, and that's kind of weird.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: But that means Massana's trapped here too, and that can
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: be good. And as we learn from Masana, yes, being
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: trapped here is very much to her disadvantage. She did
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: not mean for this battle to be taken place in
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: the tower, and as we know from how Agwing defeats her,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: that was a very good call on her part. She
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: was right to not want to fight on armed home
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: court advantage for Agwin.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I do like that she thinks about how she left
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: the lamp burning in the real world, and we see
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: this sort of the consequences of that and with the fight.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that, but yes, totally like that.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Damn lamp. Gowan has to put that lamp out in
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: order to be her shadow and defend her like a
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: warder should. Oh so many layers all.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Right, Then we go back to parents POV. Yes, this again,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: this is just looks like anime in my head. It's
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: just like they're flying around on the roofs of buildings,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: you know, scattering nuts and pigeons. Even opens with like
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: doves flying into the air, which is just like John
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: wu right, like yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's this is
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: this is an anime of two protagonists who can do
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: really cool things in the world of dreams.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we get the first clue about using lava
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: to destroy the dream spike. If he had gone for
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: that right away, then we would have had a very
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: different final battle on the slopes of Dragon Mount. But
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: instead that information will be in a bans until we
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: get to the Nightmare Volcano, he says that he's killed
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: four wolves. Yeah, wolves already, that I already killed four
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: wolves today. Yeah, So who's he talking about?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Or is he lying that I was going to ask you?
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Let me? Actually, I did not read Encyclopedia Watt today
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: on this chapter, which I almost always do. Yeah, I know. Yeah,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I do not know if he's lying or not.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Huh. Maybe he's just counting anytime he injures a wolf
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: as a kill because he wants to artificially inflate his
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: numbers because he's a douche.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm just like, wouldn't wouldn't par know?
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Or does this mean that he was hunting some other
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: wolf pack like far far away?
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, wouldn't pair know if wolf died when all
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: wolves know wolves have died, Like that's how could Para
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: not know?
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: That?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Confused me?
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I don't get it. Maybe he's just lying.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Simple explanation is he just pulled that number out of
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: thin air.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: But he's consistent with it, you know.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Or maybe the way that Slayer's sense of time is
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: is so different because of the whole switching back and
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: forth with Luke. Maybe for Slayer it's only been a day, like,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: and he's killed many wolves for him in a day,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't feel like a day to us. Times
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: different until everyone re odd I don't know, it's weird.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to hear theories about this, if anyone
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: has any proof of like missing wolves or some reference
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that comes together there, because I can't find anything.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: And yeah, the only other thing is this interesting interaction
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: where Slayer says that Luke hates him, right, Slayer's like,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I just like to hunt you for reasons. Luke has
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: a personal beef with you, and then he dares to
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: compare himself to a wolf, and Paren takes great offense
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: to that you are not a wolf. Don't get to
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: say things like no more than the wolf hates sy
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: stic toy. It's like, no, you don't get to be
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: able if those analogies are not for you. So they're
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: basically acknowledging that they have to be in a battle
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: to the death, like that's the point of this, Povy.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: It is interesting because like when when Parn shot Slayer
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and he gave him that chest wound that was he
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: was in Esom's body.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah it was, Yeah, but.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I think that Esam respects him as like an opponent,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: whereas I think Luke is jealous of Fightiel and they
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: have like the woman competitiveness, because that's the pomp, that's
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the you know, Lord. Luke is the guy who showed
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: up in the Two Rivers, and so that's where their
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: their relationship is much more personal on that level, whereas
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Isam is much more a hunter.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm also thinking they're both royalty, right, but
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Asa vanished as a small child, right, whereas Luke vanished
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: as a young adult or a teenager, a much more
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: formed personality. Because he's the sibling of t Grain, right,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: he's vanished at a much different age. And I'm thinking
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: maybe he kind of hates Paren for the same reason
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: that Gwain hates rand. M's a jeal upstart who is
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: taking on leadership and royal duties that should have been
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: your birthright, but for twists of circumstance and faith that
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: we're beyonder control. There's an element of that too. Throw
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: in a pretty girl on top of that, just to
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: make it extra annoying. But yeah, this is to set
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: up that Lava is relevant and that Slayer and Paren
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: are going to be trying to kill each other permanently.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: They don't. Hopper dies permanently and the dream Spike is killed,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: but Slayer does actually walk away from this fight to
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: come back another day.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Right, right, because the parent still hasn't figured out how
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: to teleport into the real world and back again, and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Slayer has that ability, and so Slayer can still flee
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: and escape in this moment. And when the dream Spike
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: is destroyed, right, it was either they had to fight
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: to the death or the dream Spike had to be destroyed.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Right, something is leaving the equation permanently.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: And then back to Gowin as he's running through the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: tower trying to save.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Agwayne, right, flipping back about you know, fifteen to twenty
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: minutes or so, right, because Gawain isn't in the room yet.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: The dome is over the tower, but he's not in
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: the room yet. And I love this moment where he
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: goes running by and these two soldiers come after him
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: and he's like, I don't want to deal with you
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: guys trying to stop me right now. They're like, no,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: we're backup. Yeah, you didn't have to tell us you
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: needed backup. We could tell you needed backup. We're just coming.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: We know you, we know your face. And I like
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: that moment that he thinks he's going to be barred,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: and in fact he's just getting auto backup because his
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: standing is still that high with his old followers.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: And these two followers, who are pretty much immediately murdered
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: by the Sean Chan are named for fans of the
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Naturally.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Mazone is named for Eric Massone, a fan of the
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time, and Slark Cilark, I was saying key
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Lark is named for Fitzgerald Clark, a fan of the
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: They get to be in it and they get to
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: be murdered, which is always fun.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a pretty epic scene to
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: just immediately assign themselves to red Shirt status upon seeing
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Godwin enter the building.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's sort of a lot of authors
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: like to do that, Like I need someone to kill off, right,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: and I need a name. That's a good way to
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: auction those out to people and be like, you get
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: to be in it, but like you're not gonna have
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: any story going forward because you're gonna be murdered immediately.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: But like, if you're a Red Shirt on Star Trek,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: you get the opening scene, you get to die dramatically
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: as the inciting incident of a Star Trek episode. It's
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: a good thing.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: It's a good, very good thing. It's a very good thing.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: So these Red Shirts come falling behind him.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: And yeah, they sneak up and they're like, everything's fine,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: everything's cool. Oh, the maid has already tripped the thing
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: and actually the attack is in place, and ah, plot twist.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: It's very exciting.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Oh that's what's going on. Okay. I was like, who
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: the hell bound the maid and set off the traps.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the blud I was, must have snagged a maid
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: and told her, you know, walk through the door, trigger
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the trap for us, do not scream it. The Wise
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: will kill you because we're you know, living shadows that
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: speak weird.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Hmm okay, that's my assumption. That's good. I was trying.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Oh god, okay, I totally misread that. I was thinking
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: somehow one of the black Aja got in there and
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: set off the traps but then and tied up the maid.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: But then I was like, then where are they Did
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: the blood knives kill the black a jaw and that's why, Like, no, no.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: The blood dives have been watching and looking and learning
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: and figuring out all of the different levels of security
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: that she's got.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: So they knew and they probably saw Golwin set it off, right,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: so they knew how.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: They were right there. They were right there when he
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: messed everything up. I mean, yes, they ran aft on
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: the corridor, but you think they didn't sneak back and
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: see what happened. Do you think they didn't hear her
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: yelling at him through like three levels of stone walls? Like, yeah,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: for sure they know.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: So what follows is a fight scene between him and
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: the blood Knives right where you get a lot of
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: sword form names.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good visual scene, classic Sanderson, also
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: with a yeah, a good threat of classic Jordan. With
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: just all these sword forms, it almost feels like Jordan's
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: writing it, with how many sword form names are in it.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're fun, they're fun to picture, they're fun to read.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I don't think we need to go blow through. You know,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: he's facing two, they take down his aid, they take
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: down the guy who that runs for help, and then
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: suddenly he's facing three.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's basically the core of it is. When Gawain
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: tells his men to go get help. Only one of
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: them does the stupid heroic thing and stay. One of
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: them actually does obey. It doesn't matter either way, but
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: it is nice that one of them did at least
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: attempt to follow instructions. And then yeah, God was like,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I might not be able to handle two. Yeah, I'm
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: going to handle two. It'll be great. And then a
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: third one shows up and the boss battle music intensifies
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: and gets that extra twist that lets you know that
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: you've achieved, like a new layer of the fight. It's
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: really pretty and exciting to read.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And realizing, Yes to take on three. We switch back
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to parent because that's what we're doing, Yeah, I think,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: is we're bouncing around.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: And then Paren finally does what we've been wanting him
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: to do this whole goddamn time and lets the wolf
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: go free without worrying about it. And he is just
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: flickering back and forth between both forms seamlessly, like a
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: bilingual person, and it just looks so cool in the
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: theater of my mind. Slayer can't do that shit. Slayer
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: is just Slayer forever. Paren is flickering between wolf and
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: man as needed.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: But Slayer has a little more practice in controlling the
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: reality of the world of dreams, right, So he tricks
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Parent a few times with the statue of himself while
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: he appears and shoots an arrow from behind, and that's
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: how he gets the pouch off, so he's That's sort
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: of the key of this fight is Slayer is able
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: to take the pouch off of Paren and get the
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: dream spike.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Back, but he apparently doesn't know any more than Paren
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: does about how to snap the force field down and
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: just bounce with it, because he's still doing the shuffling
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: dome situation so Para can track him in reverse.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I assume he doesn't know the controls either.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of figured he would, but I don't
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: know why. He just knows how to find it.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Probably on and off. I bet he knows on and off.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: I would turn it off if I was him. That
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: would be so much easier to just turn it off
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: and bounce. And then, you know, it's a good point.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Why doesn't he turn it off? Because he must have
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: turned it on to test it on and off to
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: test it right exactly exactly.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: So maybe he's just too caught up in the heat
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: of the moment and his fight with Paren is just
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: the adrenaline.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Or it takes a few seconds to say, you know,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: he just doesn't have the time to sit down and
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: like do the complex control.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like that just takes a.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Few minutes, or like you know, if even thirty seconds
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: would be a long time when you're being hunted and
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: he knows where you are because the dome, sent of
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the dome is always right above you.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, a lot of potential reasons, but I think
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: that that was a fail. If he was I'm not
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: given that information, that was a fail on the part
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: of his handler. But I like the idea that he's
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: just so caught up in the fight and or that
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: it takes long enough that he just can't because.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: I do think he knows how to turn it on
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: and off, because it went on and off that one
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: time where he was testing and found it, and then
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: he turned it on again later. So it wouldn't make
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: sense for the person to give it to him to
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: turn it on, because then I think that on and
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: off may have even been the person showing him how
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to turn it on and off right, and then he
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: turned it on later.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Sure, but you know, Luke hates him and Slayer is
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: committed to the hunt. So I think he's not necessarily
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: thinking clearly about logistics the way that we are. And
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I love Hopper showing up saying that you are two
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: foolish cubs, very loud, like snarling cats, easy to find.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: How did you find me? He's like, are you really
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: asking that seriously?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Which just goes to show you how subtle the wolves are. Right,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: they move quietly in the wilderness, and they will move
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: quietly until I runri odd And humans are always kind
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: of no matter how we think we are and how powerful,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Like we see how powerful parent is. Right with the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: just weave, He's still a blundering fool compared to these wolves.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I mean he's still here someone, Yeah, is he more
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: so than a wolf? Compared to a wolf? If a
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: wolf is looking at him, he is a man, not
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: a doco. All right, So a Gwain estimate we switched
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: to Agwain and a Gwain estimates that it's been about
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: fifteen minutes probably that they've been fighting. It feels like ours,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: but realistically stuff's happening fast. Sure, yeah, that.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Is how time works, especially in the world of dreams.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she says she felt invaded as surely as
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: when the Sean Chan had come. And again, I'm just
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: like Messana, you really should be running and hiding like
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: the White Towers. Boss, Mom, Mama Bear mode is activating,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: right like the White Tower's going Mama Bear mode, and
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: we've already seen what it does. Are you really going
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: to fight that? But you know we're building up to that.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: She's killing black sisters like it's no base business. Her
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: and Ninive just kicking ass, just blasting people. Everyone's so op,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: we're in god mode. The IEA are still kind of unimpressed.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Your pattern is obvious.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, so yeah, there's that moment she makes she
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: fireballs Mestra, who who was introduced and killed in this chapter.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, f n Ellen the same.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: If Ellen is actually a has been around since Fires
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: of Heaven. Oh ok she's been around for a while,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: not having done a whole lot. But she wore a
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: low neckline meeting with Alida, and a lot of thought
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: she was too concerned with clothes and should have been
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: green instead of gray. I don't even know if you
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: remember that. Okay, Okay, she was elected as a sitter.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Oh right, and then okay, so this is this is
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: this is such an important. Sorry you were talking.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Go for it.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Okay. So this this whole thing with Massana, it's really
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: heavily foreshadowed here because she imagines Evanellan being stupid mm hmm,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: and it works. We're getting that. It's just a weave
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: to a certain extent, like, oh, you can just imagine
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: someone stupid. And then while she's debating what's happened, I know, right,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: And then while she's debating what to do with her
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Messana you know, shows up and attempts to do that
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: to Agwayin and I'm like, oh, you poked the bear. Now,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: you have poked the bears so hard now, like you've
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: just given us all the ingredients we need for your
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: epic showdown in the second chapter of this battle, like
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: it's all happening right now, because Aguen shrugs it off
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: pretty quick, you know, like because she's so strong.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: They've crossed swords, they've crossed wills now once but one
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: of but she fled and eventually there's gonna be that
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: battle where they push instead of fleeing and one of
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: them breaks.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this Agwaine is able to escape, but when she
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: comes back, knowing the trick next time, no, one's escaping
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: when she's prepared.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, remember, I'm trapped in here with you, You're trapped in
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: here with.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Me, right. But this is the first time she's actually
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: faced Massana. Right up until now, it's all been interacting
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: with intermediaries. This is the first time they've actually been
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: within arms reach of each other.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: There's a moment here where Ninieve says they shouldn't be
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: able to channel this well with those imperfect copies, right,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: because they took the copies of the toangriol that Elaine made.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I don't think they're using copies. I don't think they're
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: using tarangreol. I think they have stepped through gateways and
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: are there in the flesh, and they're getting fucked by
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: getting killed in the world's dreams in the flesh. Oh.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought of that as an explanation. I just
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: figured it was that they knew better how to use
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the dream world, or that they had better to ungri all,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: but came through gateways because they had imperfect to ungre
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: all and the Forsaken are willing to make those sacrifices
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: of their pawns.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: And Masana could have done that easily.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: That makes a lot more sense, and since.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: She's there herself, right, and that and then you give
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: them this power edge because they're here in the flesh.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do that makes sense?
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah? And here right, he says, here the black the
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: black Aude justle nineteen of taron greal. That might give
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: us an estimate of how many black ogre we have
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: to contend with, or since they're able to channel so strongly,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: perhaps not because they're not using the Taroon greal. They're
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: there in the flesh, right, So they're saying, you know,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: maybe they're nineteen using the Taroan greal, but there might
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: be a bunch more who can channel stronger because they're
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: here for real.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I had not noticed that, but I totally agree.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: She asks after the wise ones, and Nineve says, I
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: think they're enjoying this, which probably yes.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like it's like when you have a dog
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: bred for a purpose and you let it go and
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: go do that purpose and it's like, okay, Yeah, these
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: these ill wise women are designed to hunt in the
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: world of dreams. That's what they are. They're they're hunters
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: from people of hunters who you know a lot of
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: them were ment like especially nice right, made of the
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: spear who's now there in the world of dreams, getting
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: ready to dole out some punishment. Right, she is in
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: her wheelhouse and enjoying the hell out of it.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a YouTube channel I love watching maybe some
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: people out there and nov It Shawn the sheep Man,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I think he's on TikTok too, And it's just seeing
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: sheep dogs herding sheep is just a beautiful thing. Like, finally,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: all of that energy that those dogs have makes sense
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: as they go tearing off through the heather for hours
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: on end, just chasing these sheep down. It's a beautiful thing.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: And yeah, seeing the ieel wise Ones hunting Black Auja
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: and Forsaken through the dream tower is just yeah. It
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: is a Collie in the mist running after a sheep.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: To me, Notoria is mentioned as a black sister. This
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: is her first and last mentioned. Nice Nice not a
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: fan of the wheel Time as far as I can.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Tell, Well, no, because she died right away. Obviously she's
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: not a fan of whel of Time. Okay, so that's
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: just a name. Fun fun fun. Ok So this is
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: where they do the like repeated pattern of light and explosions,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: and there's this whole thing about how like the tower
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: is really dark up there, Like it's like some sort
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: of area of effect thing that the Black Aja has
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: done to like make everything really dark and hard to see.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: So they're like blasting everything with light, then with fire.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: It's a whole very video game. It's feeling less and
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: less like anime and more like a video game.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: There's somewhere in between, you know. For sure, they find Sidor,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: one of the Black Sisters. She's been around since the
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Path of Daggers. Okay, you know these eyes that eye
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: who have a history where they're in the groups, they
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: were elected. A lot of these were elected sitters. A
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: lot of everyone that's mentioned so far has been elected
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: sitter when the tower split either to one side or
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: the other.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Gotcha.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: So these are That's where we get a lot of
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: these names that are being reused because they've been named sitters,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: but they have much outside of being name sitters and
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: having a little bit of backstory on each one of these. Sure.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Sure, So then we see Bear, who is the color
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: of the wall. She's gone like full cameo right essentially
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: because till I run reod it's not even camo. She's
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: like a freaking squid or an octopus, just completely color matching, because.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: You can't go invisible necessarily, but you can blend into
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the background and make yourself not seen, right, which is
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: an extension of the ideal.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, the way they can vanish into the waist
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: just because of their clothes. It's like, well, this is
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: till I run Reodds so we can become wall colored.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: And she surprises a GWayne has no idea she's there.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then as she's scolding them that they should
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: be more clever, the wall explodes and we cut back
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to parent. Because that's how this chapter is going.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Right, because every moment of tension is met with a cut,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: which is fun. It's again very TV influence but also
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time influence. Right, that's the epic battle scenes
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: are often full of cuts at you know, epic moments
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: in order to keep the suspension going.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Like that's act of TV. This is just an artifact
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: of good suspenseful, fantasy climax writing. So, yeah, we're with
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: paren and he's chasing Slayer primarily but also in the
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: back of his mind noticing that the tower is really
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: loud and ring rumbly, and is that us that doesn't
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: make any sense, and we know, of course it's because
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: there's a giant battle.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Right, so the sort of battle intersecting battle here for
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: the first time. And so he runs around and he's like,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: oh my god, there's a bunch of isid Ie.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Fighting because him and Slayer have now run into the tower, right,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: They've been running through the city up until now, and
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: now they are escalating their boss fight by entering a
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: new arena known as the Tower, which is full of
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: women hitting each other with fire.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: And so he runs into a Quain in the World
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: of Dreams, which is kind of a fun like finally moment, right,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: because they both be in the World of Dreams this
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: whole time, this whole book series, and it seems like, yeah,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: of course they're going to encounter each other. I mean,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: even though it's a big place and it's you've got
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: the whole whole world, like significant events seem like it
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: would bring them together in this kind of way.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, especially in the Tower, such a significant location.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: And then they have this hilarious exchange back and forth
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: of I'm so sorry I need to just like leave
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: you and go do something really important, but you should leave.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It's really dangerous here, right, It's.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Like, no, no, you don't understand, it's really dangerous for you.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there's that moment where GWayne sort of encases
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Paren in vines and he like shrugs them off, and
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: she's like, what's going on? And so like in the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: middle of this argument, one of the black ajash shows
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: up and tries to bail fire them. Paren doesn't know
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: who it is, but I think later we get her
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: name from mcguayne.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I think it might be to Mila, but I don't know,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: because she's the one that carries around the bailfire rod primarily.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I think interesting Encyclopedia Watt does not know who it is.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: It asks who, So let's see if we can get
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: it from them wiki an unknown black sister who shoots
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: bail fire at Paren. Interesting. I haven't. I don't think
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: anybody knows who this girl is. Wow, just generic black
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: aja huh. Just a tall, slender necked woman with raven
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: hair wearing a sleek white dress. That's Selene. That's fucking
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: land Fear.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: That's super true, except that she gets hit on the
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: head and apparently dies, And we do see Selene after this,
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: and she never mentions having a head trauma.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Oh fuck, all right, that's right. She dies, So it's
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: just a dead corpse that nobody cares about.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Selene cosplayer, maybe she is on the dark side.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: It's just the the interaction between Paren and land Fear
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: in the last book, right, what's land Fear doing now?
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: We have no idea unless unless this is Selene, you know,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: manipulating him somehow, channeling at him for the first time
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: in the World of Dreams and then faking her own death.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Make it look like she's gotten taken out by some walls,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: leaving a dead body there.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: No, because Paren and a GWayne both would have recognized
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: her as Landfair. They would have said something about it
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: if it was land Fir.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: But a slender necked, raven haired girl in a white dress,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Come on, is that not such a perfect description of
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: land Feir.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: There are other women that look like that, even if
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: they don't have names.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: What is she doing right now? Well, and of course,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: like she doesn't look like that, so because she looks
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: like Sindane right, So.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: That, yeah, she's in her sind In mood.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: But in the World of Dreams she makes herself.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Look Yeah, I just I think it's a random character.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's nah, it's just some random ice.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Today because she Hm, Landfeir begins appearing to Parent as
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: he stalks Slayer in the Wolf Dream, giving the impression
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: that she has switched aside. She helps them move the
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: dream spike from the Black Tower. That must all be
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: in the next book. But I'm like, I feel like
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: we're almost getting echoes of that in this book, Like
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: he wanted to write that. God, I don't know, hm, hmmm, hmmm.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna write that down over here in the
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: what if it's Landfair category book?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not gonna fight it.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: It can put it on the list, just because we
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: know Landfear is fucking Like the next time we see
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: parent land Fear, she's fucking with parents head in the
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: World of Dreams. And who's to say she didn't start here,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Let's keep an eye on it. How does he respond
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: to her immediately? What does he describe her as? What
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: does he think of her as when he first meets
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: her and she's actually deliberately fucking with him on purpose?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Also, how much would that not be a way to like,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: oh my god, this guy deflected bail fire in the
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: world of dreams. Maybe I should pay more attention to
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: him hot. Yeah exactly. That having power is what gets
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: land fear hot, right, Like the power to deflect bailfire
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: is power with the capital P.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: That's true. The other thing that's relevant here is that
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: he looks at a GWayne and she seems decades older,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: like she's all this authority, and I'm like, yeah, she's She's.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: The tower, white Tower.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: This is a GWayne the Ombrelance seat, not Agwen Alvi
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: or the girl that you are age cohorts with. This
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: is the dream enacted, empowered, enabled version of her. I
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: think that's cool. But what's more relevant is that he's
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: suddenly lost track of Hopper, and then he hears that
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Hopper is in pain, and we switch payovs again.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's so cool. The just just weave. It
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: comes at him. He puts out his palm. Yes, talk
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: about it's just a weave. We're referencing it, but like, yeah,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: here it is.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Here, it is right, It's just a weave. The beam
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: of doom comes at them. He puts his hand up.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: It parts around them in the most anime moment to
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: ever be an anime moment in all of these books,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I swear and a Gwayne's jaw falls on the floor
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: in a cartoon fashion.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: In this moment, it's not parting. He makes it vanish.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Oh right, he makes it stop. He just absorbs it
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: like it's a flash slight beam.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Wo yeah. And everyone's like.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: The climax is the lack of climax.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: And him being like, yeah, just we I I could
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: have done that to anything you threw at me, right,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Like the world of dreams is more powerful than channeling.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: In the world of dreams if you believe in it.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Right, to them, bail fire is above and beyond all
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: of their channeling. And to him, he's like, I never
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: got taught to revere bail fire like it's some sort
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: of uber power. I just thought that it was some weave,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: just some weave. It's like when you trade a really rich,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: famous person like they're just some guy. It's like, no,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I didn't know who you are, and so I'm not
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: gonna let you cut in line.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Right, right, And but that is a huge clue for
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: GWayne later in her ability to undo the Bamfire and
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: create the flame of tarbalin weave.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: It's just a weave, even in the real world. It
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: is still just a weave. Ultimately, at the end of the.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Day, demystifying it was really key.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: You have to get in touch with nature, get in
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: touch with her wild side, you know, and then you
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: can get out of your ivory tower and realize that
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: there's more to life than your special technology.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: So in a way, Paren killed a GWayne.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Hey no, no, no, Godwin is still responsible. You were
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: arguing just a couple episodes ago that she could have
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: figured out that weave without killing herself.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Because she uses it before. She kills herself in small doses.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: So really, Paren made it possible for to have not
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: killed herself in order to save the world. Paren gave
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: her the necessary out that she would have needed. Right,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: it's just a weave, just puts his I forgot. It
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't part around them, It just absorbs into his hand.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: And like even me as a reader, and like but
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: the beam, if bail fire has to go somewhere, the
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: energy has to go somewhere, it's bail fire. No, no,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: that is a thing of the two legged sheese who
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: can touch the wind that moves the earth and call fire.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: It's not truly a thing of the dream. It's just
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: one of those things that those particular humans can do.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Which, like anything else, you if you can disappear an arrow,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: you can disappear weave. Yeah.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: It's harder to disappear a person. It's impossible to disappear
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: an object that has been transported in physically. But a weave, yeah,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: it's nothing. Presumably if you know there was a full
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: circle completely focused on it, you'd end up in a
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: contest of wills that cost you a bit more. But
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: just like I'll throw a weave at you, well, I
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: don't give a shit.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Is like, yeah, if only because you have those thirteen
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: people putting their will into making that thing? Is it step?
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: That's what I mean. A circle would focus people's attention
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: and it will be thirteen on one. And that's that's
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: a different, more dreamlike mechanic.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Which brings us back to the classic. Is channeling in
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: the world of dreams even real? Or are you doing
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: it just because you believe you can do it?
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Could Slayer have had his channeling visions met in the
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: dream if he had just believed a little harder.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Could parent throw bailfire back at them? Could parent throw
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: the women's half of the power back at them?
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: It's not like he knows the difference in flavor. Is
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: this the true non binary chainchanneling? Is just do it
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in the dream?
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, doing in dreams?
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Because would you experience like the enhanced senses and the
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: rush and all of that if you don't know to
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: expect that, would that not even be present when you
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: are quote unquote channeling.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Or is it just not possible because you have never
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: experienced it that you can never imagine it accurately enough
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: to duplicate the process.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: This is a question. This is a question. It's a
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: good question, and I think.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: A lot of boys it's a moot question, right, Like,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: I think you have to channel in the real world
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: to channel in the world of dreams. Whether that's because
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: you need that experience to do it and you're creating
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: it with your mind, or you need access to the power.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Either way, I think it's kind of a moot point
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: because you have to have already channeled in the real world.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think probably. But also if someone had enough
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: guided meditation and a vivid enough imagination and a strong
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: enough will, maybe maybe maybe I think there might be
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: an edge case. But I think you're right in terms
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: of like general normal YAP practically, you know, normal as
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: we argue the intricacies of a magic system buried inside
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: another magic system. This is really scientific.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Hey, bro, I heard you like magic systems on your
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: magic system?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Should you like a magic system with your magic system?
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Two scoops of magic system right on top.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: So Gowen is back to the Gowan winning ish against
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: three shadows. He's doing what should be impossible. He's pulling
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: him an etherne you know, surviving for days against what
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: would have defeated him in hours, except you know, defeating
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: lasting for minutes against what should have killed him in seconds.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: But he's bleeding badly and he at this point, at
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: least when we talk to him, he hasn't done any
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: damage to them, and he's taken a lot of little
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: nicks and cuts and hits, and he's losing blood pretty good.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he manages to make his first hit by sheer
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: dumb luck. He just rolls ONNAT twenty in this POV.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: But that is the first time he has hit them,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: whereas they've hit him, you know, a half dozen times.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: So he manages to kill one, which is cool. He
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: kind of one shots one of these guys. I guess
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: the enemy's zigs when he should have zagged and just
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: runs right onto the point of the sword. You know.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, Gollin is still going to be
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: a much better swordsman than any of these three, right, Like,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: He's even because he's at a disadvantage of not having
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: the onngre all he's at a disadvantage of three on
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: one and he's still surviving. He must be significantly better
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: of a swordsman than them, or else they would have
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: taken him down easily with those advantages.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Right, right, And the other two press their attack harder
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: after the first one goes down. They clearly are slow
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: to realize how much better he is than them, despite
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: the fact that he's holding his own And yeah, but
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: he realizes that in a war of attrition he's going
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: to lose, so he chooses equality in the form of
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: total darkarkness because you can't have your shadow buff if
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: there's no light.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Right, Which is the coolest I think moment, right, And
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: I've seen this in other media, but it is a
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: cool moment of like, if they have some sort of
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: visual trick that's going to give them an advantage, take
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: away the lights so nobody can see. Shoot out the
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: lights everybody's especially they're more of them than there are
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: a view. Well, if you strike out blindly and hit somebody,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: it's definitely an enemy. If they strike out blindly and
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: hit somebody, it might be you, it might be one
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: of their friends. So they have to sort of moderate
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: where they're attacking. They can't just attack any sound.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Right, and we know from the rings when he puts
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: them on that they don't really give you much of
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: an advantage to your physical speed. It's all about the
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: perception of your physical speed to the outside. So they
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: once he makes equality. Yeah, they are inferior to his
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: sword skills, and he's better at anticipating their next move
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: once the lights are out.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Well, he gets the one right by anticipating the moves,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: and the other one he can't figure out, so he
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: tempts them. He protects the throat and takes a sort's
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: hit to the side, which only works because he can
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: be healed. Right, I mean he's sacrificing himself potentially for
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: a GWayne, right this moment of like, if I take
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: this last one out, Agwayne will live if she's still alive,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: And if she's still alive, I have the potential of
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: actually being healed from this, right, Like, he doesn't think
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: that explicitly, but that like, oh, I will take a
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: hit in the side that might not kill me immediately
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: is a risk you can take because of healing, right.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I think his main rationale is that he's not going
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: to be able to get this guy unless the dude's
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: sword is buried somewhere, and if his neck has been cut,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: he won't be able to make that last action, right.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: He needs the last few seconds after getting stabbed to
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: still have action, and he can't do that if his
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: jugular's cut, right, he'll be out of the fight instantly.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: He needs to be out of the fight ten seconds
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: later so he can lop this guy's head off. But yeah,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: it does work for story purposes. When someone takes a
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: gut wound, you're like, sweet, they can.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Mars Pan makes a good point that he's sheathing the
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: sword right, that sometimes you have to take a sword
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: in your own flesh to take out the enemy literally,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: like sometimes it's worth it, and this is a moment
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: when it's worth it.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's happy to die, but he needs to have
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: those few extra seconds after taking the fatal blow in
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: order to have it be worth it and yeah, then
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: he dies quote unquote dies. He goes into unconsciousness, not
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: knowing if he will live, not knowing if a GWayne
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: was already dead or not. That's one of the most like, Okay, dude,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: I do feel bad for you. Not knowing if your
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: death was too late.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Is rough, and I think this would have been a
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: great place to kill him off. His last thought was
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: that he still didn't know whether she was dead. End
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: of Gowin Done, She survives, sacrifice, all that kind of stuff.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: She's sad, but not magic sad, right right, She's heartbroken
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: because she wakes up with her future husband dead at
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: her feet, having saved her. Never she never got to apologize,
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: or she could have been destroyed by this, and we
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: would not have given him nearly so much over the
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: last many many chapters, because it would have been, yeah,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: you figured it out at the last minute and you died, well,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: and there we go, great, awesome. But no, he has
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: a fourth act. Never have a fourth act.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Never follow a hippie do second location.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Ever, it's me, I'm the hippie. Follow me, definitely follow
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: me in these dancing lights into the woods.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: So I did, and to look where I am now,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: oh god, another podcast seem quite successful.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: You have a house, you have a wife, you have
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: a dog, you have a podcast. I don't know what
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: more you wanted from the fay the monkey's pause that
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: you have to do it under capitalism.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. Another POV switch.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: This time to a not truly new character, but a
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: new in a long time character. M well no, actually, yeah, yeah,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: because we've seen Masana's POV before, but not in a minute,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: certainly not in this battle. So Ketterine is reporting on
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: how badly the fight is going too, and Masana is
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: currently still safe. She's still doing general stuff from a
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: safe location, but Katerine is saying, yeah, the entire plan
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: has gone absolutely to shit and we are getting our
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: asses handed to us. And Massana is unimpressed.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Because of the dream spike, which she thinks the ice
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: that I brought in as part of the battle, when
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: reality it's just sheer dumb luck in the pattern and
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Paren doing his things. Un I love the hideout. I
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: love hollowing out a sphere of solid rock underneath the
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: tower in the world of dreams using your mind. I
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: mean like, no, I'm just going to chill here because
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: no one will ever find me. There is no analog
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: in the real world. But also imagine the brain power
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: it takes to maintain that, right, because that's not natural.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: If you stop thinking about it, it will go away
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: and everyone stuck in there will die.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's splitting your attention in a way that takes
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: training in order to be confident doing it right. It's
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: like ignoring the heater cold, right, something she can do
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: without a lot of super conscious thought because she trained
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: in it. But yeah, you gotta be you know, certified
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: in order to do this.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: I wonder if maintaining that disadvantaged her against Agwayne in
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: the battle.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: No, because they weren't in that space by the time
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: that that fight happened. I don't think. I think they
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: were in a normal room of the tower for that fire,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: I think. Or did they come back to this room?
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Well, if they had, then I Gwen would have died
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: when Massana's brain snapped.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I wonder if they were in a normal room,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: if anyone in there would have died.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: When presumably, Yeah, I would assume so, either that or
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: they would get you know, like safe room booted to
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: a nearby corridor because tell irenriod has buffers on it.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know, probably not. Probably they would just get smushed.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I assume, unless they could like maintain
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: the space around them themselves and teleport out right.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Which seems unlikely in that moment of being smashed by
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: the power of the Earth's crust.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Do do you know something about that.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Tiny bit, tiny little bit?
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: I about a really cool rock actually the other day
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: called Shungaite, named for a town in eastern in western
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Russia where it was found. And it's essentially dried up
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: rotten oil from the way way way back. It's like
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: it's as old as two billion and as young as
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: one point two billion years old, but it's essentially what
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: happens to oil after even more time, Like it's the
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: carbon in it is too densely packed to be burnable.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: It has some cool industrial uses, but it is essentially
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: a carboniferous coal. It could have been coal, right, but
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: it's much more smashed and much more dehydrated and rotten
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: and compressed than a fossil fuel. It's very cool, very
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: interesting stuff. It's not even truly a mineral because it's
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of different things. It's more of an
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: amalgamation of stuff, but it's also a distinct rock. And
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: then there's also rocks that bear it. Very cool and
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: formed by a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Oh. One final thing we see is the she places
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: a weave on Catrine, which we know as a mask
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: of mirrors that makes her look like Massana herself.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, she's pivoting the plan to make do with the
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: fact that she's in the tower and then says, ooh,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: let me make a decoy of myself. You are a
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: sacrifice I'm willing to make. This will go well, and
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: then we pav switch back to Paren. She's at the
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: top of the tower facing impossible situation with Slayer and
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Hopper tries to like bargain like give me the spike
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: or give me Hopper, I'll give you the spike. So
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I was like, that's literally not going to work. We
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: talked about that.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Slayer tosses Hopper off the roof and Paren does the
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: superhero landing pose to catch him, like exploding outward, ring
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: of fire and everything.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they do this whole like falling off down the
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: thing and they're fighting in the air trying to teleport
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: away keep him there. It's very exciting.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: His knees buckled and the ground around him shattered. Right,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that's that he lands and the ground around you shatters.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: That is such a superhero pose landing moment.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it also is, again, like we were just
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: talking about with Massana, an indication of the strength of
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: his mind to impose his will on the environment. Right,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: He's choosing to land in a way that is safe,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: and it still hurts him. He still is fighting against
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: the earth. Masana is down, you know, thirty forty fifty feet,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: holding back the pressure of the overlying rock in the
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: back of her mind without thinking about it too hard,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: whereas he is desperately trying to save himself and shattering
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: the stone and his body at the same time.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: But Slayer, the asshole that he is, shot an arrow
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: down at the you know, I assume basically the arc
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: the wolf was traveling in as soon as he dropped
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: the wolf. So Hopper gets basically killed by the arrow
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: from from Slayer's bow.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really intense because the arrow comes zipping out
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: of the air and goes through Hopper into Parn's leg.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: That's a really, really harsh way to do this. Pincushioning
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: the bestest boy hop.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: And that's where he says later raises his boat, looks
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: like I kill five wolves today, And it's like, is
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: he I don't know if he's lying about that. I
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: really don't.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, confusing, very confusing. Yeah, it's a weird thing to
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: hold on too.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: So parent imagines himself strong, not faint. That's him. Like
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: basically replenishing all the blood in his veins is something
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: he's able to do. So he can give himself a
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: blood transfusion, which is pretty impressive. Right, you can do
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: a lot to keep yourself alive in the world of dreams.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: You can't truly heal yourself, but you can do bits
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: and pieces.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: You can bandage yourself, you can give yourself blood transfusions,
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Like you can do basically everything that would be done
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: in a hospital to treat a wound of that kind.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: So if you can survive the wound, you don't have
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: to get to a hospital. You can just do it
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: yourself with your mind, right. Yeah.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting that there are ways, but it's not
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: just imagining, like you have to do more. Like injuries
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: somehow have more reality than other conditions, and you have
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: to treat them with more gravity than just thinking about it.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: So Hopper is not fully dead yet, right, Like, he
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: drops Hopper, but there's still like an actual death goodbye
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: scene to have after the nightmare, right yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: yeah there is. Okay, I flipped a head. Yeah, so, yes,
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: Hopper has taken his fatal blow, but we haven't had
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: his death scene yet. That will be next week.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Right, And that's that's when he says, ago he got boundless, right.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Right, that was what I was looking at this and
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: being like this is too abrupt, and it's like, oh yeah.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Parent goes and does the whole thing while Hopper is
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: lying there on the street bleeding out and then is
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: still alive to give Parent that last bit of info
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: before dying finally. But yeah, in the meantime, Parent smells
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: a nightmare and does the excellent desperate maneuver of if
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: you can't kill the enemy and walk away, maybe you
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: can kill both of you, and pushes Slayer into a
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: nightmare together. They kick in together.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: It's sort of similar to what Golin's doing, which is
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: leveling the playing field, right, yeah, taking out of a
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: place where your advantage into a place where we're both disadvantage.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Paren and Gowen are kind of following similar trajectories.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: If I can't win the way we were doing the battle,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: then maybe I can make you lose at least by
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: changing conditions badly. And that is where we're going to
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: leave you for this week. We will pick up this
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: battle next week because we wanted to savor it like
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: a fine wine and not rush the thing.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: And just an update Landfeir's compulsion of parent. This is
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: from Brandon Sanderson was only in a Memory of Light
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: and she didn't like using it and not done so
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: in their previous meeting back in earlier books.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is just a woman who bears passing
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: resemblance to her.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: That seems to be that it's not a direct quote.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: But it seems like the Landfair thing really seems to
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: have only been in the final book. All right, But yeah,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: I think that takes us to the end. Anything else
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: that you want to say, No, I.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Am enjoying this. I know action sequence chapters are a
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: lot faster than usual, but I don't mind that we're
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: splitting this up across two weeks.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a heavy page count for us to
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: get through. Even if yes, a lot of it was like, oh,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: that's fun battle stuff, we don't really need to talk
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I am just really excited to go talk
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: about Dungeon Curler Carl, so I would want to get
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Shane Less. They pitch our Wheel the Time Spoilers audience,
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: you gotta come listen to the Dungeon Curler Carl stuff.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: We're recording way ahead of what's currently been released, but
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: I'm very excited for what we're going to be recording today.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: No, it's really good stuff. I'm enjoying the Dungeon Crawler
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: Carl content a lot. It's just it's a different energy.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: It's a totally different energy, and I'm loving it. So yeah,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: come join us over there. Bye.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: consider supporting us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watts
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: more podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.