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Monday Mini: Internalized Homophobia · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: And welcome to stuff I Ever told you production of
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: iHeart Radio, and welcome to another edition of Monday.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Many.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: For this one, I would suggest checking out our recent
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Monday Mini on compulsory heterosexuality or COMPET, because this is
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: kind of a companion piece to that episode. We're not
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: going to get to in depth about it, but we're
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: just going to mention things like sexual assault and depression
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: things like that. But today we are talking about internalized homophobia,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: which is related. I did mention it in that COMPET episode,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and this is one of those things where I imagine
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: most listeners know what internalized homophobia is, but I figured
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I would do a quick rundown on it since I'm
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: seeing a lot about it online right now, and sometimes
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: folks are mixing it up with compet and or heteronormativity.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: They're all related, but they are different from each other.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: We also kind of saw this in action at our
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: end of the year Sminty meeting where somebody bought up
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: compulsory heterosexuality without us mentioning it and it became a
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: topic of conversation.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, yes, we just did an episode on us.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: A few times in life where we're like, yeah, we
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: just did an episode of that.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Actually a lot of times sometimes you know, maybe we're
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: not trindy in terms of wearing suede, but sometimes I
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: feel like we are ahead of the curve and what
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: becomes a conversation topic. But yes, right now, that is
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: a big topic of conversation. So I wanted to come
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: back and just clarify some things about internalized homophobia, which
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: very basically, it's what it sounds like, similar to internalized misogyny.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: It is an involuntary, internalized feeling that homosexuality is wrong, bad,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: a moral It's sometimes called internalized oppression. It is the
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: internal belief that heterosexuality is the norm and the correct
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: way to be, and something that we internalize due to
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: a bunch of different societal factors, systemic factors like religion
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: or education systems, medical systems, politics, media, in our family
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: and friends, everywhere you can get it. There's also internalized transphobia, specifically,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: which revolves around internalized negative perceptions and fears around the
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: trans experience. Same with internalized biphobia. We're going to talk
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: about this more in a second, but as I've said before,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: there is still within the queer community infighting and still
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: can be judgments of like a bisexual person from a
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: queer person, so that that does still happen. Related term
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: internalized heterosexism is when a queer person internally believes that
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: heterosexuality is superior. So maybe I'm just gonna make this
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: mini series and break down all of these terms because
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: there are.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: A lot of them.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, So for gay people, internalized homophobia can manifest and
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: self hatred, stigmatization, or disgust, or even repressing their sexuality
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: or self harming behaviors and suicidality. Research shows that, especially
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: for younger folks realizing their sexuality, it may take them
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: years to confide in someone about it. I believe the
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: study I was looking at I was five years after
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: they realized and I've talked about it before, but just
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: to mention, I did this too.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Am my experience of trying to.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Pray the gay away, where I would literally pray, please,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I do not want to gay because I knew it
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: was gonna make my life more difficult and potentially dangerous.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: And we did talk about that in the compet episode
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: as well, that we internalize that being gay is dangerous
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  Speaker 2: and unsafe.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: As children.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: It starts at a very young age, and there's sign
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: behind that too, I'm not just saying that. And it
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  Speaker 2: can cause a bunch of other issues for gay folks too,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: like jealousy of friends straight relationships, like you're jealous that
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: they get to just have this relationship, get to just
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: have but you know, like it's not as simple perhaps
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: in some cases for gay people. Contempt for other gay people.
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  Speaker 2: And so this is what I was sort of mentioning
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  Speaker 2: before this is it can be something relatively minor, as
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: in kind of using gay as like a haha, that's
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: an insult, but it can be something absolutely heinous, and
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  Speaker 2: that can lead to the the trope of a conservative
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: religious leader or a politician secretly being gay. It's usually
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: a man who often grooms and sexually abuses children of
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: the same sex. Now, obviously that is a different episode
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: and there's a lot more nuances in there, but that
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  Speaker 2: can be an example of how horrible it can get
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  Speaker 2: trying to change your sexuality, denial that things like homophobia
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  Speaker 2: is a real problem, and or engaging in outright homophobic
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  Speaker 2: behaviors to fit in. Feeling inadequate, over underachieving, low self esteem,
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  Speaker 2: and poor body image, attempts at passing as straight and
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  Speaker 2: even getting married to pass a straight, remaining in toxic
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: or abusive relationships, shame, fear, defensiveness, depression, withdrawal, bitterness, continual
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  Speaker 2: self monitoring, which is exhausting when you're always thinking about
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  Speaker 2: how people are perceiving you and not wanting them to
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  Speaker 2: know that you are gay. Risky sexual practices, substance abuse,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: and reluctance to show affection, which again because you think
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: people will misinterpret it. This also we're not going to
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: go into this today, but I did just read an
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: article about this that I thought was related. But it's
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: when you are out and straight friends kind of use
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: you to validate that they're attractive.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: They're like, oh, do you think I'm attractive?
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  Speaker 2: Right, so you even gay people think I'm attractive, which
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: has happened to me and I hadn't really realized it
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: until I.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Read that article. Oh yeah, Yeah, it's a whole thing.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: It's a whole thing, and it sucks because then you're
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: just kind of a what are you?
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  Speaker 1: You're validating them?
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  Speaker 2: But anyway, I did find a very recent twenty twenty
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  Speaker 2: five study called sexual orientation and internalized homophobia of middle
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  Speaker 2: aged and older gay and lesbian adults the role of
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  Speaker 2: social relationships, and it found that self identified gay men
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  Speaker 2: had higher levels of internalized homophobia as compared to self
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: identified lesbians amongst those that they surveyed. I'm not sure
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  Speaker 2: if this is true of the younger generation, but with
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: toxic masculinity and all that, it doesn't surprise me at all.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: And a lot of it did because they were trying
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of the reason for it,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: and a lot of it did have to do with
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: the level of support and friendships. And we've talked about
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: that women usually have more support and friendships than men do,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: often because of this toxic masculinity and just our general
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: misogyny and sexism in society.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: But yes, I thought that was interesting, and so.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons that I wanted to talk about this,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: and I want to be clear to articulate this correctly,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: is that, Okay, this is a it's gonna sound like
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: a silly story, but just stay with me. First side,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I was talking to a good friend of mine about shipping,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: and I was saying, I generally never ever believe my
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: usually gay ships are going to happen. I just don't
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: think that's the case. So I always know like this
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: is something that I like that will never actually come
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: to life on screen or whatever media it is. And
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I was talking specifically about the Mandalorian and Luke Skywalker,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: who I love to ship together, but I never.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Actually thought they were going to get together.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: They literally have I think two minutes of screen time together,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: but some people really did. They really did, and were
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: devastated when it kind of became clear it wasn't going
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: to happen. And I just said, without really thinking about it,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I said, well, obviously the male writers really connected to
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: this strong male hero. They associate themselves with him. They're
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: never ever going to make him gay because that would
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: imply that maybe they are gay. And I just it
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: was a strange thing that I just said it without
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: I want to be clear, this is me projecting this
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  Speaker 2: is I do have no evidence behind this.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I have no.
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  Speaker 2: Statement that I read or thing that I saw. This
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: was just something that I believed deeply, and even if
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: they are allies, they still don't want to be gay.
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  Speaker 2: Like there was something in me that just believed it.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: And so I really had to say with that and
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: think like why cause I just I just said it,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I didn't have any evidence of it. And it's not
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: like I don't believe that's happened or people don't believe that,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: but I didn't have any evidence of it, and so
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: I really had to do some self examination after that.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: It was like, wait, why did you say that so authoritatively?
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I don't really know anything about them, To be honest, I.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Guess it in my head that makes sense because not
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: because of your thought of like gay's bed, but because
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: typically what we see in toxic of masculinity, anything into
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: that realm would imply that they have gayish thoughts, and
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: for toxic masculinity that is a no no. So because
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: we are living in a state where that is more
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: prevalent that it makes sense that it's a And it
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: was a more of a a scolding of them more
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: so than your thoughts. That's how I wanted to taking that,
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: because I'm like, yeah, of course they would never because
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: they don't have the understanding that this is a thing
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: that could be and it seems should be natural in
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: that it could be this instead, But like, because men
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: are so afraid of anything looking less manly that they
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: would absolutely be like, that's not the way they would
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: think or type of thing in that conversation.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: So that's interesting.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: No, And I that's where I'm kind of like, I
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: think it's both that but also that I was just
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: so ready to without any evidence anything. But I also
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: had this thought of they would be embarrassed. Yeah, they
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: would be embarrassed that so many people are thinking this
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  Speaker 2: character might be gay because they it's themselves on it's
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: an idealized version of themselves.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: But then you have thinking like if Pedro Pascal exactly cool,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: like I would give him a benefit of the doubt
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  Speaker 3: of being like no, but he'd be okay with it
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  Speaker 3: because he has evolved and understood this is not an insult.
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  Speaker 3: This is not a thing, and like in any perception
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  Speaker 3: to him, it just as a natural way of being
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: and people ship this okay, And he'd be like, let's
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: I'm down, this is where we're going, But this is
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: where we're going.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: He has been open about it. He I think he's
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: a that it just Timothy Oliphant's character and.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Then makes yeah, that makes sense.
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  Speaker 3: But like it feels like in his understanding and the
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: understanding of like, this is not why are you so insulted? Biased?
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: Is such a bad thing, and he understands that's not
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: a bad thing. This is not but the head like
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: the compulsory heterosexuality would make it seem like that's not
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: the norm, which I've seen after our conversation, a lot
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: of social media's come up because there was a post
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: where a girl supposedly rejected a woman because she was straight,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: and then she got hate from everybody and dosed for it.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: And then the people instead of being like, oh, it's
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: bad to be docs, it's that bad, like if you're
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: for people to be not okay with rejection, but that
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: is a normal response, instead everybody was like, yeah, she
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: should be offended. It's not normal being straight as normal?
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: What is wrong with y'all? Why are y'all defending? Like
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: it was the amount of comments that says straight is normal,
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: which was the first time I've ever seen that. I
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: was like, what is happening? Are these bots? Is this
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: new tactic that I have missed since this conversation or
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: like it it was a weird defensiveness that I was like, what, well,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: that's not that's not even a part of the conversation.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: I don't get what's happening.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have to come.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: We said it before, but I do think something's going
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: on with bots.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Something is going on with these amount of the amount
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: of bots that I've seen in that type of conversation
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: that I was like, what is going on to the
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: amount of bots that is rationalizing the death that's happened,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: the murder of the woman in Minnesota that has just
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: recently happened by ice, as well as just different conversations
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: that I'm like, this, this doesn't make sense.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it legitimately frightens me. It has for a long time,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: but now I'm seeing something has increased.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But anyway, Yeah, I mean that's horrible.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: That's maybe I will continue this series because that's related
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: to another issue, another term.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: But I do just again, before we move on from
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: the Mandalorian, I want to be one hundred percent clear.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: That was your projection.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: That was me projecting.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: There is no not Pedro Pascal is down.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not putting any thing out there that what they
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: said or did or maybe I don't know. Maybe they
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: did and I don't know about it, but I don't
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: personally know about any of that.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, that was totally me projecting. Yes, okay, noted, all right,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: thank you? So uh.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: If you are struggling with internalized homophobia or transphobia or
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: whatever it may be, there are a lot of resources
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: out there for you. Here is some basic advice from
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: the Trevor Project. Acknowledge and understand it and how it
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: impacts you, and ask questions about it, like where did
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: it come from, what makes you feel it, what brings
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: it up? Fine community and support and with healthy slash
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: positive queer content. Challenge negative beliefs if you experience them.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Accept your queerness on your own terms and know that
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: those terms can change. So sometimes that can mean you
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: don't if you're not ready to come out and that
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: and it might be later or maybe never, But just
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: figure that out for yourself and realize that it can
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: change and your sexuality can change. And also, don't assume
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: someone's sexuality should never know.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: You never know. It's not your business.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're straight and you know someone struggling with this,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: here are some tips from Healthline. Assure them that through
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: your words and actions, that you accept people of all
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: gender and sexual identities. Speak out against anti gay sentiments
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and legislation. Believe what they tell you about their lived experience.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Create space for the lgbt QIA plus people in your life,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: and continue to educate yourself about people who are different
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: from you. And obviously all of this is intersectional as well.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: We talked about that competitis too, because in different cultures
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: that this can have other complications. You have to consider
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: our I mean, even your family, honestly, like it can
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: be very specific. So these are some basic tips, but
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: if you need more, there are plenty of resources out there.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Again, I think most of you listeners probably know about this,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: but I just I.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Have seen a lot of conversations about it online like relately,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, maybe we should just go ahead.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go ahead.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: But listeners, if you have any resources or any topics
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: related to this that you would like to hear more about,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: please let us know. You can email us at Hello
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: at steffanenever told you dot com. You can find us
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: on blue skyt most of a podcast, or on Instagram
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: and TikTok at stuff I never told you. We're also
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: on YouTube. We have some merchandise at comm Bureau, and
• 16:55
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• 16:57
  Speaker 2: your books.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Thanks as always too, our super projuice Christine are Victor
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: PRIs My and a contributor Joey.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening. Stefan Never
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Told You Dispecture by Heart Radio. For more podcast from
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