Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Visiting Shirakawa Uji with Koto Tea Space

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Visiting Shirakawa Uji with Koto Tea Space · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:06
Hello and welcome to Specialty Match Podcast.
0:08
My name is Ryan. This is my Cohosongjun who also
0:10
goes by Sam. Hello.
0:11
Hello. And we're the cofounders of
0:13
Sanko Match Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast
0:15
to discuss a learning journey and matcha share startup stories
0:18
and interview experts. And today here sitting with us
0:21
are Yoske, Sam and Kunpa from Kodo T Space.
0:26
Welcome guys. Thank you for the invitation.
0:28
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming.
0:30
Just to give our listeners context, we're recording this
0:32
here in Kyoto. We just left Fuji and they were
0:36
so kind as to invite us to go visit Suji San in Shirakawa
0:41
Wuji, and we learned a lot today.
0:43
So what were some of your biggest impressions and
0:46
learnings from today's visit? For SAT OK, Miss San, you know I
0:50
used to meet us to sound like a several times already, but that
0:53
whenever meet at Suji San, no topic is deep and deep.
0:57
We learn more. But this that you know that even
1:01
deeper. So this that you know more
1:03
giving them more difficult level.
1:06
Yeah. So today's a more deepest topic.
1:10
You guys go like way back, right?
1:12
You and Sujisan know each other for a long time, almost five
1:16
years. How did I start originally?
1:18
Like how do you meet Sujisan? OK, so originally I was like
1:23
exploring matcha and then I came across like buying his matcha.
1:28
You know like before that I think we we were drinking some
1:32
sort of like a blended or the branded matcha.
1:35
We were like, yeah, matcha tastes quite nice.
1:38
And then after after that can of Suzuki Matcha, it changed
1:43
forever. This was your aha moment.
1:45
Yeah, that was aha moment. Like, oh, so much.
1:47
I can taste like this. This is like nothing I've had
1:50
before. Like it's very clear and the
1:52
characters and something like very new to me.
1:55
And then I looked at like, there's a producer name in the
1:57
can. Like I told you, please contact
2:00
this producer. I'm not sure how much we can
2:02
buy. It's going to be expensive, but
2:04
we we, we need to and I feel very impressed.
2:07
And then, you know, at that time, you know, the parcel just
2:09
came from abroad. And then I opened to eat.
2:13
That was like 10:00 PM but it's so delicious that I finished
2:17
like tasting 4 cultivars and I couldn't sleep that night.
2:21
I can message you get please contact this sushi key next day.
2:26
I need it. So my so bad, so good.
2:29
Yeah. That's like that goes on there
2:32
like afterwards we just keep. Original story.
2:35
And after having visited there in person, it's our first time
2:37
that you can really taste why it's so good.
2:39
Like I didn't realize that you could talk, I guess, for we were
2:43
in the fields. I think the only topic was
2:45
fertilizers. And you guys said we went 10%
2:47
deep, which to us we learned so much maybe.
2:50
Not even 10%, Yeah, 10%. Only a fertilizer of the
2:54
specific months, right? Was a control.
2:56
In the fertilizer for four years, so much is not just the
2:59
fertilization, but the shading processing.
3:02
Oh, it's mean, Yeah. I think less than 10%.
3:08
Tip of the iceberg, just the level of sophistication and
3:11
complexity just around fertilization under or odor over
3:15
fertilized and like what that does to the plant you I think
3:18
you mentioned that there's some type of fertil I think is
3:20
rapeseed oil by product produces gas in the soil, which like
3:25
damages the tea plants. Like that's just the things that
3:27
you don't hear people talking about.
3:28
Imagine that root of the tea plant, this one already proved
3:32
in the science, but this one contribute a good taste.
3:34
Oh really? Yeah, but you know tea plant is
3:36
a weaker so need a more like a control.
3:39
Okay, okay. Do you supplement that with some
3:41
other material, like if that weakens the tea plant?
3:44
But it does provide like good flavor.
3:47
Supplement I mean. Like do you add some other
3:50
fertilizer to kind of help the tea plant?
3:52
Of course fish meal. I also like the famous fish meal
3:55
Rapsee meal famous because of this one called the high
3:58
nitrogen. Nitrogen is the material of the
4:02
like a glutamic acid or theanine.
4:06
And so other thing is like a soy meal is also one like us, yeah.
4:10
So the soybean meal is also protein made of protein, yeah.
4:14
So and also other something, yeah.
4:16
This also get meat like scratch of the meat, meat fertilizer.
4:20
OK. Yeah, maybe like a meat
4:22
processing meat factory and then maybe left or tend to be a
4:25
fertilizer, this one also. Work or beef?
4:27
Or chicken, Not sure, but this one also makes sense because
4:30
they're made of protein in the to decompose into the amino acid
4:34
to the nitrogen and become a first nicer.
4:36
Wow, the tea plant really eats like human too.
4:39
Yeah. So I don't believe the big
4:41
indirectly the fish this. Is sounds like a chef.
4:44
One of the questions that was asked during the trip, too, is
4:47
like how the fertilizer methods changed over the years.
4:52
And it was something that was very striking to me.
4:54
It's just how much globalism has affected the tea industry.
4:58
And it's probably unthinkable to Suji Son's grandfather that he's
5:01
importing fish from Brazil or soybeans that are from the
5:06
States. And it's actually all very
5:08
interconnected and that these things are fluid.
5:11
There is no traditional way to fertilize now.
5:13
There's just so many more options.
5:15
And it's really encouraging to hear how, like, it was so
5:18
important to Suji Son to constantly move the ball forward
5:22
and innovate and like really do the best thing that he can do to
5:26
make the best tea he can with the materials that he has access
5:29
to. That access has changed over the
5:31
years. It was pretty fascinating to me,
5:34
which is. Quite a unconventional kind of
5:37
activities that he's doing, you know, in terms of, you know, how
5:40
people do farming, say Uji, right?
5:42
Yeah, he has a very deep knowledge about agriculture and
5:46
also one might make me surprise the most is she know that it's
5:50
called condition of soil of the each spot, right?
5:53
He already submit the condition of the soil to the blah blah
5:56
tree and they get the data and based on the data of the soil he
6:00
know how to treat the tree. Interesting.
6:03
One of the things that was very interesting is that there are
6:06
certain minerals in the soil that kind of things, manganese,
6:08
manganese. Can you like share a little bit
6:10
about what manganese do to tea plants?
6:12
Manganese according to the tradition tree with manganese,
6:16
tea tree like to absorb the manganese and they grow well.
6:19
Tea plant is healthy but doesn't contribute the good taste of the
6:23
tea. Doesn't contribute good taste.
6:24
And they're also talking with a tradition like the other time,
6:27
he said. The soil with a lot of
6:29
manganese, the fertilizer is less effective.
6:31
So I need to maybe need to give them more fertilizer or other
6:34
method to make it effective. Interesting and I kind of miss
6:38
part of conversation but did he say like adding more iron or
6:41
some kind of mineral will help the tea tree?
6:44
I'm sorry you're talking about the manganese.
6:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
6:48
Manganese I think connect. So it goes through.
6:51
It's kind of, you know, I say conflict with iron conflicts.
6:55
Yeah, Yeah. So I mean that more manganese is
6:58
some negative effect of the iron and absorption that tree.
7:02
I think, Oh, interesting. Oh, OK.
7:04
Because he was talking about part of the soil in the garden
7:08
is very iron. Rich yeah, this one is AI think
7:10
I need some like a knowledge of the agriculture because some you
7:14
know, you know, giving more is not always right way for the
7:18
cultivation. I mean some mineral too much
7:21
might have a negative effect of the absorption of the other
7:23
mineral. OK.
7:24
Yeah. So cultivation balancing, Yeah.
7:27
So there's no only one right method.
7:29
It seems like a lot of things that are healthy for the tea
7:31
plant don't necessarily equate to delicious matcha.
7:35
And then it's just a huge balancing act because it was a
7:39
big take away. Yeah, yeah.
7:40
And so I mean, we already noticed that Suzuki Matcha is a
7:43
not the best way for the healthy tea plant.
7:46
They are actually all fitted and there's a signal plant is a
7:50
stick because of the too much for tonight and the root is
7:52
damaged. Yeah, that was interesting,
7:54
seeing the plant damage where there was some yellowing in the
7:56
tips and he says it's directly connected to the roots.
7:59
And then your translation, or I don't know if it's your summary,
8:03
your translation, but the tea plant eats too much too quickly
8:06
but didn't digest. It's very funny.
8:10
I wrote that as a quote in my notebook.
8:12
So that really. Plant is a kind of obesity in
8:15
the old time like article of the he wants to make a foie gras of
8:20
the farm. Oh, foie gras, that's an
8:23
excellent comparison actually to matcha.
8:27
You really think about it. Yeah, because of all the intense
8:29
fertilizations were really where all the flavor and quality is
8:33
coming from. Shoveling down all the wine to
8:35
those geese in the. Farm, yeah.
8:37
So firstly, no activists claim about right of Latif plant.
8:41
The other interesting practice is that they don't like older
8:44
trees and that they replace them every 20 years.
8:48
It seems like a practice that I've we've never heard of, like
8:51
it's a crazy standard. What what are some of the
8:53
reasons why they replace them so often?
8:55
I think if the tea plant is older absorption the nutrition,
8:59
the less the taste can be shallower.
9:01
So I think in the theory around the 20 year is a peak mean 10 to
9:05
20 years a peak of the tea tree 8 but it's a more like a burden
9:10
to like a renewal of the tea tree because tea tree grow the
9:13
roots quite deep and they pull out it's quite quite hard.
9:17
So and also so considering the like cost of the renewal, I
9:20
think to optimize the economic other like a business they
9:24
normally like a keep like a run in the same key field like 40
9:29
years or 60 years or even longer.
9:31
That's more of a cost saving. It's a crazy commitment to to I
9:35
lost the word. So talking with them is
9:38
theoretically right, but no other people does.
9:41
Oh, really? What like what's the kind of
9:44
like the, the norm in Wuji? Like what's the average cadence
9:48
of, you know, Bush management in Wuji to?
9:51
Replace them. To replace them because like Sri
9:53
Sant does it for 20 years. What?
9:55
What about the other? People I haven't visited so much
9:58
like Tanja TPO like in Wuji in around our like partner not
10:03
visiting the some like a partner in the other prefecture.
10:08
Sometimes they run the tea more than 50 years.
10:11
More than 60. Years but you know management
10:13
different this kind of producer more like care the health of the
10:17
tea tree you know the three sound style over fertilized so
10:21
quite a lot of damage and stress so deteriorate tea plant is
10:24
faster interesting yeah so therefore I tell you like 3
10:28
centuries like Olympic athlete or like a bodybuilders.
10:32
Bodybuilders. A lot of stress and burden to
10:34
the body so that cannot like a last like a so long.
10:37
You well, you can definitely taste the strength in the in the
10:41
tea. Yeah, it's a really, really
10:43
virgin. Powerful and refreshing yes.
10:45
It's like a well managed, even like a high quality matcha tea
10:49
plant like survived like a more than 50 years.
10:53
So there were a lot of other people that were visited the
10:56
farm and I think it was almost the entire group flew to Japan
11:00
specifically to see this. So what was sort of the impetus
11:04
to arrange and organize this visit?
11:06
So last time we visited Sodisang, we also discussed
11:10
about it as well, like how like the market is changing stuff.
11:13
So he actually want like people to, to have more like knowledge
11:19
about like what's like, how like UGT is cultivated and also how
11:24
like he's taking care of like his tea plans and how with his
11:30
knowledge, with his skills, he wants to share with the peoples
11:34
who love the tea and who's the enthusiastic as our B2B
11:38
customers too. So yeah, that's that's how we
11:40
were discussing. So he said like, maybe we could
11:44
open some like educational session and well, when he's
11:48
free, especially like around like February, we can arrange
11:51
some like a farm visit. He's willing to like, share his
11:54
knowledge with us. So actually we are quite very
11:56
surprised because we never arranged this kind of things
12:00
before. And yeah, I think he, he really
12:03
feel like he wants to, you know, share to the people.
12:07
Other perception from me. So I also met with pop and
12:12
around autumn light my last time.
12:14
And so it's I mean, you know, much bubble is a little like
12:18
slow down or settle, like, you know, globally.
12:21
And then before that, it's also quite busy because of many, many
12:24
like people talk about Suzuki and like a marketed hype.
12:28
But for the original like concept of Suzuki is a more like
12:32
people enjoy authentic matcha. But you know, in the matcha boom
12:36
and Suzuki is busy and they cannot like guide his tea farm
12:40
or too much traffic or like too busy to manage like sales.
12:44
But so instead other people visit other tea field and for
12:49
three times I this mine is not authentic once.
12:52
You set the record straight. So these are very stressful and
12:57
so like people promote other people.
13:00
This is like it was your matcha. This is the authentic matcha
13:02
feel. So either she's a craft man,
13:05
she's not like working for the business she won.
13:08
You know, many people like happy because at this point a very
13:11
good. Matcha he wants to make a
13:12
statement. Well, he also has, I don't know
13:15
if it's obligation is the right word, but he's one.
13:17
I think he's the most awarded matcha farmer in Japan.
13:21
I think like he's the only matcha producer to have the
13:24
Prime Minister award. So like, it's a big reputation
13:28
to carry. Emperor Award.
13:30
Emperor Award. Sorry.
13:32
And the name and the the person GIF is Prime Minister Shinzo
13:36
Abe, right? It's crazy have that kind of
13:39
recognition and the lead and set standards.
13:42
It was just award of different, you know, awards being hanged on
13:46
his ball. In the win of the competition of
13:49
the year. Yeah, yeah, it's quite crazy.
13:51
I recognize one of the award was signed by.
13:55
Ishba OK previous Prime Minister.
13:57
But at the time he was still the Ministry of Agriculture.
14:00
But that was very interesting. That was crazy.
14:03
Insane number of awards and just seeing the craft and the way he
14:07
was talking about it is you understand why and how.
14:11
So like therefore, like we though they get hearing that she
14:15
sounds like, you know, stress or like some needs.
14:17
So we suggest. So how about like we arranging
14:21
like a tour or a meeting and and your free time is like a winter
14:27
time because the tea is not so moving.
14:30
And so they say like they can make time and we contact like
14:34
our like a regular customer, loyal customer of the Suzuki and
14:38
each person and like arrange this time like a meet up.
14:42
Yeah, and I arranged like who's coming.
14:45
I see that you guys want to learn more about the tea and I
14:48
really think that like you guys will benefit and also learn a
14:51
lot from like a meeting citizen and you've been wanted to meet
14:55
him. Yes, that was that was when you
14:57
messaged me. I was like, wow, we.
14:59
Have to do it. I'm not going to be anywhere in
15:01
Asia, but we have to come. Also like this is a other word
15:06
from my teacher of the Japanese tea, he also got the highest
15:10
quality of the central deal and he said from the top of the
15:14
mountain you can see the bottom, but from the middle of the
15:17
mountain cannot see the top. So for me that's the question is
15:20
around the top of the mountain of the matcha.
15:22
So from the top you can see how much compromisation or like
15:26
quality and readable to the price.
15:28
Yeah, yeah. So how is like, you guys have
15:32
one of the most beautiful tea spaces in Bangkok and you've
15:36
been sourcing Suji Sun's tea now for six years.
15:39
How has like consumer perception changed?
15:42
Was it difficult to sell it first?
15:44
Like how much consumer education do you need to do to kind of
15:48
build up demand for this level of excellence in matcha to get
15:53
people willing to pay for it and try it and become repeat
15:55
customers? Yeah.
15:56
So initially when we start selling, it was quite something
16:01
because most of at that time the matcha like industry in Thailand
16:06
still like mostly drink matcha latte and many people still have
16:09
like, you know, the cheap like bakery matcha.
16:12
And then I feel like, well, we have a Suzuki matcha.
16:16
One thing in order to like sell his tea and like make people
16:20
understand his tea is to like for education.
16:23
So we start like tea workshops and a tea testing and then
16:27
eventually we open quarter tea space and then we offer like a
16:31
walk in or like a tea bar, coffee menus that people can
16:35
come in and actually can drink uzucha like using sushi Ki
16:39
matcha as like our standard and also the ice matcha because
16:44
sometimes people are still not really ready for like usucha
16:47
yet. So moving from like latte to
16:50
gradually ice matcha and then moving to like usucha or koicha.
16:54
So our Cafe, our place, Koto tea space, always never we stand for
16:59
this policy. Never serve matcha latte.
17:02
So from the start, some people just walk out right away and
17:05
there's no latte. But then some people maybe they
17:09
feel awkward. They don't want to turn away
17:12
because they already reserved. But the misunderstand maybe.
17:14
And then I just say, just say open your mind and then like,
17:18
try this ice matcha. I'm sure it's not bitter or
17:21
estrogen. And then we tried like a brewing
17:24
in a way that is like we serve, we call what we call matcha on
17:28
the rock. And this one we serve is
17:29
slightly thicker. I'm sure you're.
17:31
Had it and. Well, most of the people who had
17:35
like that menu with a Sujiki matcha, especially Uchihi Curry,
17:39
is that this is like a, you put milk in there or like it's quite
17:42
very silky or sweet. From that moment we start
17:46
educating them that actually matcha doesn't need to be like
17:49
so bitter or estrogen. So that was like one of the
17:52
first to let them try and open their mind for this tea.
17:56
And afterwards they start like, you know, the word of mouth
17:59
everything. We don't push too hard about it.
18:01
We want people to gradually learn and like came into liking
18:05
experience. So gradually lately nowadays, so
18:08
more market is developed more education on a consumer and more
18:13
people like wants to seek for like higher grades and better
18:17
grades. So yeah, we we gradually have
18:20
like a more regular customers and like new customers as well
18:23
coming in. Yeah, I think like high grade
18:26
much is like now quite value and sought after.
18:29
I remember one of my first times going into Koto, I think it was
18:31
in 2022, maybe it was in 2023, on a trip to Bangkok.
18:37
I was sitting next to someone who I think she was a tourist,
18:41
she was just traveling and came in.
18:43
I don't think she really know what she was expecting and she
18:45
tried the matcha on the rock and just like seeing her reaction,
18:49
it's like how different it was probably from her expectations,
18:55
how good it was. That was positive.
18:57
Oh, it's positive. Very.
18:58
Positive. OK.
18:59
Just making sure. It was, but it was interesting
19:02
because I was already kind of like the idea on the back of my
19:04
mind that I wanted to work in matcha and just seeing that
19:07
reaction on someone's face for a great product for the first
19:10
time, let alone like having Suji Sansti and like as what she was
19:15
probably a complete beginner and just seeing just wow, this did
19:18
not meet my expectations at all for a good matcha taste like in
19:22
the most positive way. You just have some of the most
19:25
insane staff. I don't know how to call IT
19:28
staff education, staff education programs that I've ever, ever
19:31
seeing. Team training is absolutely
19:34
crazy. Like every time you guys post
19:36
about it, I take screenshots sometimes like I need to find
19:40
this graph. So how did that start and what
19:43
is the program and how do you, because when you go in there and
19:47
talk to the staff, I feel like every time I order a tea, I just
19:50
need to start taking notes for like everything that I'm
19:53
learning about it. Like whether or not it's a
19:55
certain cultivar, certain brewing method, methodology.
19:59
Like, you guys go really deep, like way deeper than I've ever
20:03
seen in the tea experience space.
20:06
So I think I start the team training like beginning of the
20:11
previous year. So about the knowledge side,
20:15
they mainly take care because I'm a native Japanese and can
20:18
access the Japanese contents. I also can talk the Japanese
20:22
producer or like some master deeply and they translate into
20:26
the, you know, English knowledge to the our stuff in English.
20:29
And if they didn't have some of the time chance to share the
20:33
knowledge, there is a gap of the knowledge of me or other stuff
20:36
like working for the couple, there is a so not so much.
20:40
So it's kind of like a like a waste of the like opportunity.
20:43
And so and how to do it. I mean, just like some part of
20:47
our like a working time, like make the fix time as a team
20:50
training and they share the something whatever randomly.
20:54
There is some basic education of the team as a team, but more
20:59
advanced like at some level. We still don't teach in the for
21:03
the customer yet. So I mean, you know what the
21:05
customer demand is normally, how to brew much out, how to like
21:08
what kind type of Japanese tea or like different grading, but
21:14
this. But you know, if you teach
21:16
something, your knowledge should be more than that.
21:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like you always say that
21:23
the tea masters in Japan, they only share 10% of what they
21:26
know. And then the other thing you
21:28
should notice. Otherwise, they don't stop
21:30
talking. There is Zen way of learning.
21:33
Therefore, like the more you learn and then notice and talk
21:37
to this time, this time the tourism become like a serious.
21:41
Like take you guys to a roller coaster.
21:43
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
21:44
We got really specific very fast.
21:47
That was very interesting. Actually.
21:49
I have a question for you. Use Kisan.
21:50
The common perception of like macho tea culture in Japan is
21:55
not something that you would associate with like the younger
21:58
generation. How is it as a younger
22:01
generation, you know, of this nation?
22:03
Like how do you engage with the this culture and how like do do
22:08
you kind of like react with with learning this in this new era
22:12
in? Europe about younger generation,
22:16
I think there are some like a new trend in the tea ceremony,
22:19
for example, like a tea ceremony like a traditional like a way of
22:22
like enjoying the matcha average age of the key people is quite
22:27
old. Seeing the Instagram, many like
22:30
a young team master around my age or even younger.
22:33
And these kind of people share the more like I knowledge or
22:37
showing the creativity and some people follow it.
22:40
So I think some like already has some of the seed is already
22:44
spread. And yeah, also about the
22:47
Thailand, how do they react? Mean the for me, the I'm based
22:50
on the Thailand. So so it's quite nice to implant
22:54
the concept of the Japanese culture.
22:56
And then matcha is just one media and drinking as a beverage
22:59
and knowing the depths of the Japanese culture through the
23:03
matcha is a put the different level.
23:04
So do you see like the like tea culture or matcha culture being
23:08
like more and more popular within Japan nowadays?
23:11
I'm not sure about the tea culture in Japan, but I think
23:15
going to be popular in the goodness of the tea culture is
23:19
something like a similarity of something like a spirituality of
23:23
the Japanese people, something readable to them, Buddhism and
23:26
also Shinchinism, and also like feeling the connection to the
23:29
nature. Let's find out what the Japanese
23:31
people like from the old time. And then of course, people just
23:35
working for the company and they stay in the city.
23:38
They're quite like a boring, they're very stressful, but like
23:40
a some, I know some like a much a seller who like drop off the
23:44
company and start a match of business.
23:47
And the reason why they started that they Start learning the tea
23:49
ceremony from tea ceremony. Yeah.
23:51
Feeling something like a goodness of the like a slowness
23:54
of slow, slow life or something like some be that stay and calm
24:00
and drink tea and it reflect yourself.
24:02
So I think this kind of thing is a concept, like I said, demanded
24:07
and it's mean. So like people used to like a
24:10
seek for the money or like a gross economy.
24:13
But of course, like there's a always sitting I mean, and of
24:17
course people need to find something like a meaning of the
24:20
life without growth of the economy or they even like
24:23
economies that grow stable. What you are like working for
24:28
like a living for and then tea ceremony or like a making and
24:32
drinking tea or something, do something, treat the people
24:35
well. Is that even like generating the
24:38
money? This one also like a value for
24:39
the people. So I think the tea ceremony or
24:41
like a Japanese like a classic way of the thinking is very
24:45
helpful so that I don't want to say the sustainability, but can
24:48
continue. Actually people are busy for
24:50
like, you know, doing these kind of traditional things, tea
24:53
ceremony, how much your time you spend and this one cannot make a
24:56
profit, but the people like to do.
24:58
Yeah, it's not a about the intention of making profit the
25:02
the intention of doing things right.
25:04
Enriching one's life. Yeah, yeah.
25:06
So enrichment of the kind of mind is also getting more
25:10
important. Very wow, that was well said.
25:14
How do you guys get into tea in the 1st place?
25:16
Like do you guys always like tea?
25:18
Why? Why Japanese tea for example?
25:20
Like, oh, pop first. I was involved.
25:23
OK, OK, I see. I see.
25:25
I dragged him into it. Oh my God, when, when I met him
25:29
like eight years ago, nine years ago, we, we just, you know,
25:34
let's go hang out somewhere. He brought me to like I
25:37
Photoshop and then I was like, oh, I ordered Kyoko and I was
25:42
like quite into Chinese tea before like I went to Yunnan and
25:45
then I feel like, well, the tea is quite like amazing plans.
25:48
If you revitalize you rejuvenate it and stuff, right.
25:52
But like until like I come for like internship in Osaka.
25:55
I met him and then we went to ipodo.
25:58
I ordered Kyoko. Then there's a lot of ups coming
26:01
and I was, I was like, why do you need so many cups?
26:04
I'm like 1 trade for one person. And then the staff just came and
26:09
then explain and then like you need to like, you know, use the
26:12
lower, lower temperature. And I was like, that doesn't
26:15
happen with Chinese tea before. It takes so much time.
26:21
You got to wait 3 minutes, 4 minutes.
26:23
I keep waiting and then, you know, like I, I'm quite like,
26:27
have a soft spot for like a Japanese culture and also like
26:30
all the small things and like many like, like rituals of doing
26:34
things. And I I found that I gradually
26:37
fell in love with the process. So the why I'm involving is no
26:42
like a hop, like a start, like a contact in the tea producer.
26:45
I start to I communicate with them and they, you know, I
26:49
didn't have any knowledge at the time, but a little quite
26:52
difficult to talk or like, it's a little shameful.
26:54
Like I don't know anything about the T so learning and also so
26:58
pop also found the Japanese instructor because at the time
27:01
there's no authority of the Japanese T in Bangkok or
27:04
Thailand. But in the long run, it's better
27:07
to have some authority or some knowledge, like a foundation of
27:11
the knowledge because in case Japanese professional come to
27:14
Thailand and this like a need to be the same level.
27:17
So and so like applied Japanese structor also if it is in the
27:21
tea producer or tea farmer with pop and actually I'm like a good
27:26
at like a accumulating knowledge or like I like to learn
27:30
something and connect the dot and many knowledge connect.
27:33
So you can you know, the deeper or that you feel like some
27:36
relationship. The pop talk about the one that
27:38
meeting the one like our like a teacher of the like a teaching
27:42
merchant. You know, Japanese of knowledge
27:45
in Japan is extreme. For example, there's a Japanese
27:48
instructor license or the certificate in Japan.
27:51
This one people recognize as a semi professional.
27:54
If you pass this examination, you know the basic
27:57
comprehensively, but in Japan there's so many professional
28:01
already beyond this level. Yeah, so so it's mean that for
28:04
me the like based on this like a Bay Foundation, the people keep
28:09
seeking their speciality like more than the 1020 years.
28:13
So and they met this kind of person and in Fukoga in some pop
28:16
up store and he said the Japanese, especially leafy and
28:21
like some like Quso, we just ask, I just can't really ask the
28:24
question about the Quso, about the speciality.
28:27
His answer is 10 minutes. More than 10 minutes and he
28:30
start talking about geology of the like a location.
28:33
He's like walking in Dakota these days.
28:35
Ask one question. About some like clay soil that
28:37
that area this one this area not familiar for me.
28:40
So my like I try to get catch up with him and try to translate
28:44
anyway or like, you know, this can master you to keep with
28:48
them. You, you know, level up to your
28:50
knowledge. If like I said, didn't progress,
28:53
they they can see through. So it's like a progression
28:56
technique, like where you have to like, I don't give certain
29:00
signals or certain, you have to communicate that you have a
29:02
certain level of understanding to kind of unlock the next
29:05
level. Yeah, yeah.
29:06
Of knowledge. Actually, I, I met these kind of
29:10
people who has a huge knowledge and they this one, these kind of
29:14
people. Don't worry not that in the
29:15
public normally like these kind of people, it's kind of brain or
29:18
like a fixer of the behind of industry.
29:20
OK, then they kindly gives us some knowledge and but they they
29:26
must know the differ. But if you how much you can get
29:30
the knowledge from them is up to your level.
29:32
What suggestions do you have? Because we've noticed this
29:35
across, not even unique to Japanese tea, but even Chinese
29:39
tea or in Korea, like you kind of have to unlock information
29:43
from people like you need to. Demonstrate your level first.
29:47
Before people open and like figure out how to talk, even
29:50
talk to you and actually even too, I'm sure a Kodo T space
29:53
when a new customer walks in, you have no idea at first if
29:57
they are like how knowledgeable they are, they expert or they
30:00
don't even know that matcha's from Japan.
30:03
Like so how do you identify where someone's AT?
30:05
And then how do you kind of come up with strategies to meet them
30:08
where they're at, whether or not they're below you or above you?
30:11
This one is more like a service at the front, right?
30:14
Yeah. So nowadays I mostly take care
30:17
of B2B customers and sometimes I retail customer come in as well
30:20
or mostly our regular customers. So when a customer come or like
30:25
new customer, whether they how much they have the experience
30:29
outside, they just come and then they look at the T list and then
30:33
I just gonna ask what you want to drink.
30:36
And they just like ask something like in our list or like for
30:41
example. Well, I wanna try like a Suzuki
30:44
summit or something because I've tried this culture or something
30:48
before. And so at least I know that they
30:51
have like level of maybe they try like mini teas already, but
30:55
gradually also depends on how like they ask like how is this
30:59
like harvested or like what kind of season is this or how like
31:03
how do you describe the different of this?
31:06
Or some people even like want to kind of like, well, I drank this
31:10
tea before the composition grade and stuff.
31:13
Do you have anything better than that?
31:14
I'm like, I'll make like, I'm not sure but.
31:20
You're looking for a fight. I'm not sure about that, but
31:24
well, we have a Suji matcha, so you can try like it's a
31:27
different style. So let's let's discuss about
31:30
that. It's very flexible, yeah.
31:33
And to to get the Flexibility Foundation notice.
31:37
So I mean, whatever question come we can reply.
31:40
Yeah, yeah, in the many direction and talking about
31:43
better than this like producers are quite difficult to talk.
31:46
And also in that quite awkward if talk in the photo obviously,
31:50
right. So I mean that if and especially
31:51
if you know that about the effort of producer or craftiness
31:55
of producer deeper, there's no like, you know, better, there's
31:58
no better or worse. Both excellent, but can be
32:02
slight difference. It's kind of like a #1 and #2
32:05
Olympic player. They also extend the top of the
32:09
country with a score, the competition judged by the
32:12
professional one to two different.
32:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something like when
32:17
people serve the tea, I'm pretty sure like Chinese tea as well.
32:19
They serve you the tea and just want to see your reaction.
32:22
Oh. Yeah, yeah.
32:23
That happens all the time and depends on their reaction of the
32:27
IT would dictate what tea they will put out next.
32:30
I'll just serve my cobra tea from like Cheese rock or
32:33
something and I don't say anything.
32:35
Yeah, let's see what they. Do of the taste flavor is quite
32:39
personal and some person very high like out of bounds palette
32:43
and then like I recommend many variety of flavor, but some
32:46
people actually cannot recognize and then if like a reaction
32:50
reaction on the first person, no what kind of taste the tea they
32:54
like or like they understand even farther or not.
32:56
Interesting. This is kind of like a Omaka say
32:58
like. Yeah, kind of like Omaka say.
33:00
I want to drink matcha so kind of like get some information 1st
33:03
and like maybe you like this one.
33:05
Interesting. So what you guys have talked to
33:07
a lot of different producers from different region in Japan,
33:10
Like what? What do you see the difference
33:12
of, you know, interact with them and like what do they care the
33:16
most about? Like for example like Uji versus
33:19
Pseudo or places like Yame? I think it depends on the
33:23
producer. Yeah, there's a top to the
33:25
bottom of the producer and seeing the how much they know
33:29
about the tea or seeing the tea field or like management or tea
33:34
factory can see the level. So normally the excellent
33:38
producer like a level like a can won the competition and doesn't
33:42
mean that always national competition, but the competition
33:44
prefecture. They are management excellent
33:47
see the tea field very beautiful like a like a the lines are
33:50
quite or some like there's no like defects mean that there's
33:53
no like a damage or sick or like insect bites or something or
33:57
teas are quite nutritious. These kind of people.
34:00
Any type of tea is tasty. Any type means that even like a
34:03
handpick or like a mushing harvest also better quality for
34:06
the price and something that produce the food are not
34:10
serious. Like I mean when we talk this
34:13
kind of level, that same level of that question to most of the
34:17
projects cannot answer. So if you ask a very, very
34:20
specific question. Just like or just like a pause
34:23
or some like question and see the response and we can know how
34:28
they know and if they talk about like an organic or like a nature
34:34
or something like an artistic things they don't know.
34:38
Anything. Yeah, they should be sending the
34:39
soil sample to a lab instead of guessing.
34:42
Actually most like advanced people, even they looks not
34:46
this, but they are also like a scientist.
34:48
Yeah, that was a great Suji Sung quote that I wrote down.
34:51
He said, I think you cannot make great matcha without science.
34:54
That was very interesting because all of this matcha
34:57
marketing that you see all over the place, it's all about
35:00
authentic and traditional. And here we have one of the most
35:05
we're going to, we're going to send all our soil samples to a
35:07
lab at an enormous cost. He told us the price and it was
35:11
like. A credible he does like a spot
35:14
TV from the spot and send the lab and take down.
35:17
Yeah, active amino acid content measuring.
35:19
A few leaves cost like ¥5000 or something 500,000 yen 500,000.
35:24
Yen. Yeah.
35:25
Huge. Yeah.
35:26
Serious dedication to quality. Yeah.
35:29
And also the timing of the fertilizer, how he monitors
35:31
these plants all the time. Yeah.
35:33
Yeah. And it's not like he just
35:34
fertilizes. It's like he needs to
35:36
communicate with the plant to understand what it needs in any
35:40
given moment. So like my question like next
35:43
day that to do some meet up I want to ask what the difference
35:46
of the yesterday and today? Great idea.
35:51
Talking there 5 minutes. Interesting.
35:55
So you guys are really on the forefront of knowledge within
35:57
Matcha just in general in the industry.
35:59
Like every time I talk to you guys and feel like I take pages
36:02
of notes more, watch your content.
36:04
What is 1 area of Matcha that you don't know that you're
36:09
trying to find answers to? Like what are your areas of
36:12
investigation or research on maybe the history or farming or
36:16
cultivation? Where are you trying to expand
36:19
your knowledge base even further?
36:21
Or you are curious the most about.
36:24
And how do you do it? Because we have a couple of
36:25
unanswered questions that we're trying to research.
36:28
We're always like, curious to hear other people try to expand
36:31
their scope of knowledge. I think I may need a can
36:33
knowledge, but the OK, so my process of the learning of the
36:38
OR matcha or Japanese green tea, of course, like I know like a
36:41
basic knowledge or like a history or like some like basic
36:44
science. And the next while I drill down
36:47
is a cultivation agriculture and know how to grow the like a
36:53
plant. And they also actually try to
36:55
like grow the some of the vegetable from the planter and
36:58
then know like what kind of nutrition or that how react the
37:01
plants react with some if the lack of lack of the fertilizer
37:05
or something. And if like you know about
37:08
agriculture, you can apply into the reiterate to the like tea
37:11
cultivation. Also you can drill down the each
37:14
mineral or some like a component of the like a agriculture.
37:18
So I mean not just a fruit, open fruit nizer, but also the
37:20
mineral. And if talk about the mineral,
37:22
you need to drill down the geology of the Japanese geology.
37:25
And deeper and deeper. Yeah.
37:27
And also you know that about the history of the horse, right?
37:30
How that Japan is a builder? Actually this kind of things
37:34
also like sparked his interest when we visit that Sikhi case.
37:38
So like he talked about geology a lot about how like old Lake BY
37:42
was there and the minerals and the soil.
37:45
And then afterward he he bought all the books about like a soil
37:49
crazy in Japan. We just could go more
37:51
fundamental and fundamental so. I have several mineral book and
37:55
then also yeah, about how to say about the like the research, how
38:00
like a soil or mineral contribute the taste of the tea,
38:05
because people keep talking terrible, but people don't know
38:08
the deep depths about it. And about Yvatasan is the owner
38:11
of the Ski Gasset in our prefecture.
38:14
He is a state called family business of the tea farmer.
38:18
But his background is a graduate from the agriculture faculty of
38:21
the Token University. He's intelligent, so like he
38:25
write down many his insight in the blog and his style is
38:29
natural cultivation and natural cultivation.
38:31
So it's mean that doesn't give the fertilizer and it's just
38:34
like a nutrition is maybe cut off the tea tree or just put
38:37
that in a weed, cut the weed and they put that around the tea
38:40
field. So this influence of the
38:43
fertilizer only like a mostly mineral and organic material
38:46
around around the area. Then he also experiment.
38:49
So his area there is a both Gray soil and sandy soil.
38:53
Sandy soil is a granite soil. Granite soil is a like similar
38:58
as a yeah issues stone grinder. Yeah.
39:01
Issues. Yeah, so like a more like a
39:03
whitish like a mineral and like a good drainage.
39:06
The crazy soil is a like a used to be like old Lake Viva, Lake
39:10
Viva around the five million years ago around the Lake Viva
39:14
is around another area, not like as you guys.
39:17
Oh really. And then and used to be in Lake
39:20
Viva and about the geographically change and this
39:24
the device lake via disappear and they come up disappear and
39:28
then now they move to like around the area.
39:30
Well, I guess they don't have much of 5 million years ago.
39:34
That's interesting. Yeah.
39:36
And there's some like, you know, clay soil.
39:38
This means they used to be that sediment of the like, like maybe
39:41
organic, like material, like a living being.
39:44
So this one has like a like a rich mineral or like complexity.
39:47
And he ended that place. That area is a kind of like a,
39:50
like a, some place is a granite soil.
39:53
But the difference like a steep is a like a clay soil and he
39:59
plant same plant, same cultivar and he guided the knife.
40:03
Edge. And there's two plots even he
40:05
guided I tasted the TD actually tastes different.
40:10
So this plant is a exactly like a difference of the like soil.
40:15
Yeah, interesting. Was it a conventional farming,
40:18
do you know? Or organic farming?
40:19
This one natural cultivation, organic.
40:22
So no fertilizer. Or fertilizer nutrition where
40:25
nutrition from maybe only sunlight?
40:27
Night photosynthesis and tea plant grow and also other weeds
40:31
grow and cut the wheat and put in the soil.
40:35
So it's mean that this OK, they close already.
40:38
I close already. OK, OK.
40:39
We will continue. On OK, OK, OK, OK.
40:41
That's embarrassing. That was a great conversation.
40:44
OK, so yeah, for your talking when like what you want to learn
40:48
more too? Yeah, I was talking about like a
40:50
fertilizer and like a cultivation.
40:52
And he tried like growing something like to think in the
40:55
eyes of like producers flowers too.
40:59
So what I see from him, he brought like geology books.
41:02
He bought a farming book, he bought like a fertilizer book
41:05
and a history of cultivation. And then, you know, he he likes
41:09
cooking. So whatever is leftover, he
41:12
froze and then make fertilizer if.
41:14
He and then he fertilizer. Yes, he prevent his own
41:17
fertilizer and then grow his own okra, grow his own plants.
41:22
So on vegetables. So just techniques on vegetables
41:24
actually. Actually, there's some tea as
41:26
well. Cool.
41:28
When have you guys processed it? We we do, Michel.
41:32
Takes 560 years to rehab a stick.
41:34
Yeah. We, we brought like we were just
41:37
like harm in Fuji Tawara and I. You just pick up some seed and
41:41
then back and then, well, miraculously some.
41:44
Oh, you grew it from seeds? Yes, interesting.
41:47
Fuji Tawar as I ride now in probably a little pot in Bangkok
41:50
now. I was like.
41:51
Oh, for a year and a half. Must be good.
41:53
Yeah, so like it's more like understand how producer think
41:57
and the funny things. When I post some like Instagram
42:02
I don't say this one tea tree but the one producer I know
42:05
common thing is your So they're looking at the URL like a tea
42:09
tree. How about the pH?
42:11
Is this a well grown? And then that night answer this.
42:14
Actually this T farmer is also master.
42:16
I bring the pH meter to run my room and fit it and I check the
42:20
pH and send the information. Wow.
42:23
And you tell him this is Michelle?
42:24
Michelle from the Seed. He's grown and this find a wine
42:27
year and so he thought they did some branch propagation.
42:30
Oh, so this one may seems like grow well.
42:31
Interesting. Wow, what is the proper pH?
42:36
Proper pH. Row pH like a low pH so middle
42:39
is a second. So I think I'm between 3:00 to
42:42
5:00. Pretty.
42:43
It's pretty low pretty. Low yes, so it's mean that
42:46
actually tea plant originally I can grow the place like I
42:49
normally cannot grow the vegetable or other like rice
42:52
because the mountainous area not the convenient and but like I
42:55
can grow the tea and the tea is a valuable.
42:58
We were just learning about that in Yunnan.
43:00
We were in Chiang Mai and there's all of these fields and
43:02
the the core producers were telling us, yeah, a lot of this
43:07
motivation here. You can't grow anything else.
43:10
Like it's only suitable for tea. Minor production area like cigar
43:14
Manduca area that one the original is a monk introduced a
43:18
TC because a farmer cannot grow those so much visible well.
43:22
So like how about the planting the TC then they sell as a kind
43:25
of like a supporting their life. Interesting.
43:27
And I think which is a little like a unique that tea culture
43:30
is a popular around the capital like Kyoto.
43:33
So like our people want their demand more the good quality
43:36
one. Therefore the more managed to
43:39
become like A1 foundation area. So that was it actually
43:42
geologically not the best area in the very rare place because
43:45
of most of the best cultivation area like Accenture, like
43:49
Shizuoka or Yummy mountains area in the sandy soil.
43:52
And it's back to the about the story of the like a sandy soil
43:55
and clay soil. I case it like a same cultivar
43:58
with the sandy soil and clay soil that's just like connects
44:01
each other and the sandy soil, the refreshing like a green
44:05
aroma, but the clay soil, they're more than deep and the
44:08
complexity, but the less refreshment about the sandy soil
44:11
is it looks like proper for that in a fresh, fresh flavor of the
44:15
green tea. So Japanese like the sandy soil
44:17
about the leaf tea, but the clay soil is a like a not so like a
44:21
flavorful that that color tea color tend to be a little
44:24
reddish. So it which is a negative.
44:26
So what they're like Ivato Tan does is a tea tan black tea
44:31
cultivar in the clay soil, you know like the bhakti that
44:34
complexity is nice and also clay soil called a more mineral or
44:38
more fertilizer. So it can create a thick taste.
44:41
And about the uji or quilt area, there is a both clay ish soil
44:45
and sandy ish soil and so base and both which one better farmer
44:50
optimize producer can grow the best tea, eat both easier area
44:55
if the sandy soil just solve the problem of the fertilization and
45:00
also if the clay soil maybe they need to improve the drainage.
45:04
Interesting because when we were in Goka show, it was like very
45:07
clay, clay soil type of environment because it was like
45:11
almost in the river. It was very wet and it was very.
45:14
Muddy and dense almost. Yeah, I think so because I seen
45:18
the location. The uji.
45:20
It's actually based on sentiment of the like maybe mountain
45:24
around the east side, right? So like a wuji is a mostly like
45:27
a muddy area. Yeah, that was very interesting
45:30
because like I when I was there in Goka show because like that
45:34
environment or the soil condition was like traditionally
45:38
considered as the worst type of soil for like Chinese tea, but
45:42
that was considered to be the most pristine tawa for matcha.
45:46
And now it makes sense because like this, clay soil can hold
45:49
more like nutrients. So it's mean that easy to make
45:51
fertilizer effective. Yeah, easy to make fertilizer.
45:54
Effective, well suited for matcha.
45:56
Yeah, for matcha. Yeah, so seen.
45:57
So it's mean that matcha cultivation is not like a like a
46:02
generated made by the nature this more human walk.
46:05
It's really a product of like effort even like for what the
46:09
plant eats like in the terms of fertilizer.
46:11
Do you guys agree with the point of view that matcha is not very
46:16
terroir expressive? Not at all.
46:18
Terroir maybe less than 5%, OK, 19 or 5% is the human effort.
46:23
We have the same conclusion. The more we learn, the more we
46:26
realize that I heard from. Some blender that this cultivar
46:30
is good in the mountainous areas.
46:32
I think it depends on that the easy to grow or not.
46:34
With the for example mountainous area temperature lower, it's
46:38
like a cultivar difficult to grow.
46:40
I mean that they cannot grow in the lower temperature after
46:43
shaded kind of grow, right? Yeah, yeah.
46:45
So it's really about, you know, the growth and the survival.
46:49
Of the plant even same cultivar depends on the area the
46:53
cultivation method to the different like Simon Dori in Uji
46:56
and Simon Dori in the yaman here both master mean the level of
47:00
the competition. Winning the competition they are
47:02
shading method. The timing of shading different
47:05
very different. So mean that even talking about
47:07
shading they can talk more than one hour.
47:10
That will be the next episode, yeah.
47:11
Yeah, yeah, man. How is it different?
47:14
But just yeah, OK, I know it must be complex, but in a simple
47:18
way, how's the philosophy different?
47:20
OK, philosophy. So not generally speaking,
47:24
shading must start do after a new bat coming out, right?
47:29
It's like a bat already grow and shade.
47:31
It mean that there's some time like which is not exposed by the
47:35
like which is already exposed by sunlight.
47:38
So no more like more. More Catechin.
47:41
Yeah, but if like in the Wuji method and Wuji style and the
47:45
shade from the beginning assignment, it cannot grow well
47:48
and they're like dying or like a weaker, but it's works.
47:53
But this point though, Yamme actually do like this.
47:56
If the bots new bot coming out or opening up, just shade and
47:59
it's it can do it and the possible factor, just my
48:03
personal opinion. Maybe so is different.
48:05
Yamme is a OK mountainous area and then I actually quite sandy
48:09
soil. OK, I mean that's rocky soil and
48:12
actually mineral is quite good. So maybe eat is a rocky soil in
48:15
the roots grow well and the plants grow well and the flavor
48:18
are color nice. So it's mean that less influence
48:22
originally that could grow. Plants grow well.
48:23
Therefore, like even the shading still can grow, but the oji tend
48:27
to be more like heavy fertilization And then also
48:30
taste might be a little muddy or Cray.
48:32
So I mean the roots difficult to grow, but the taste makes it
48:34
thicker and this condition might not match to the situation.
48:39
The for the Simon Dory doesn't match the Simon Dory and
48:42
therefore Wuji just talking with the way or they're not sure
48:47
about the way of the Wuji people.
48:49
They draw a little more and the shade.
48:55
Yeah. And do you think the momentum.
48:56
Yeah. So like timing of the like how
48:58
many beef open and start shaving is that there's some of the know
49:02
how and I think yummy I think yeah or something like so not
49:08
the one leaf. Yeah, talking with the one
49:11
producing yummy 0.8 leaf. So it's mean that 80% of 80%
49:16
leaf open, OK, 80% of the first leaf open shade.
49:21
Interesting 0.8% leaf. I know they're by 80%. 80%. 80%
49:27
of beef first leaf open. Oh, very, very interesting.
49:30
Very quantified. And about that was he like about
49:34
a second leaf or something second leaf, something that
49:36
already in the start grow leaf is moving something that grow.
49:39
There are some using the momentum of the growing up and
49:42
they're also shading also other like talking with other like
49:45
professional. And then he like a judge of the
49:47
IT competition and he see like he was like analyzing how to
49:52
beat up the like a Yammer with a with a Yammer now is a top of
49:57
the production in the competition.
49:59
There's a scientist show the hour of the area.
50:02
I think more than I think 10 years Yammer keep winning.
50:06
I mean the group award, it's mean that some of the rank of
50:09
the like a winner of the individual winner of the area.
50:12
So I mean the yame won the area award.
50:15
It's mean that many high rank producer in the from the area
50:19
and there was a specialized for the matcha.
50:21
But that's that's like a person analyzed me the key cutting the
50:26
winning the competition grade of the yame and analyze how to
50:29
bring to the like a yame. Interesting.
50:31
He I wonder why yummy doesn't shade so heavily, but the flavor
50:36
is like a like a rich, like as like a well, shady tea.
50:39
And his conclusion I mean originally had the shaded aroma
50:43
and the judge might be like a misunderstood.
50:45
Oh, it's because of the cultivar.
50:47
Ordinary people has something like mild like a rounded aroma.
50:51
Mild oica, basically. Oica ish aroma or yeah ish Yeah,
50:55
because so I mean, the Yummy actually doesn't shade so
50:57
heavily as OG. Oh wow, that's fascinating.
51:01
So many, many small difference among the professional.
51:05
Yeah. And I hear about the judge of
51:06
the competition grade and how to judge like a like a winner.
51:11
He has excellent taste, so he can be the intention of each
51:15
producer. Wow.
51:17
Yeah, yeah. So like.
51:18
Taste for intention. Yeah.
51:19
So this person I said normally competition grade must you
51:23
submit the young but but this person but this year the taste
51:28
is a little shallower. I mean, because in the
51:30
springtime the temperature didn't grow up.
51:32
So I mean the tea plant didn't grow well.
51:34
So taste is a little weaker. So that one producer who got
51:39
high score in the competition mixed a little orderly to and
51:42
the richness that to, but to the level other just don't know
51:45
this. Interesting.
51:47
So professional is a just based on the quality and also
51:52
discussing among the professional and and about the
51:56
evaluation competition in the OR something key evaluation
52:01
competition. It's not like a competition of
52:04
the matcha, but the competition of the evaluation steel.
52:07
It's one that regularly organized and people from total
52:11
the top of the nation. For a value evaluation.
52:13
Evaluation like the total like send in a top three group mean
52:19
that flex. I don't know how many number,
52:20
but you know, for example, 5 ranked people Group A top like
52:26
5-6 to 10 people is like Group B or sometimes the other the Group
52:30
C join the national competition. Maybe result of the previous
52:33
year 123 is the ABC or was all total I think and the evaluation
52:38
competition total is that might be more difficult than the
52:41
national competition. Oh.
52:42
Interesting. So the competition.
52:44
Of Chaka Boogie. Oh, Chaka Boogie.
52:47
Yeah, yes. Here we see like it's the T
52:50
evaluation competition that like eventually you see as a game,
52:55
right? But they also see as a game plus
52:57
you know how to like beat up each other and also like the
53:00
test and bring some suspicious samples or like to keep leveling
53:04
up and trying to get out of people's to get a wrong answer.
53:07
That's so funny. Well, for our audience that
53:10
doesn't know what Chuck Kabuki is, it's a game that you play.
53:13
You fly identify several TS and also introducing a foreign T and
53:18
then you need to identify that foreign tea a month with all the
53:21
tea that you have tasted previously.
53:23
Very fun game to play. That that one was like one of
53:27
the quite a challenging part. And they do it like real, like
53:31
serious competition. In fact, that got the
53:34
competition. I think only one or only one
53:37
people or two people in the history, like long history, like
53:40
70 or 80 times, only one person got the full score.
53:43
Only one or two person got full score.
53:45
Interesting. Everyone try not to make a right
53:49
answer the submitting the T from each group, but this kind of
53:53
sample T might be a little tricky.
53:55
Interesting. Always very tricky TS.
53:59
So people, this kind of people need to not taste it and also
54:04
need to like and this what that like what that what that this
54:09
like a fracture happened. OK, so it's not really just
54:12
identifying what tea, but also like all the information about
54:16
the tea. So for example, like maybe this
54:17
point center might be a little like a shady flavor or
54:19
something. OK, OK.
54:21
Wow. Once.
54:22
More difficult to tell the cultivar.
54:25
How do you even train to become that?
54:28
It's very difficult to find a chance to really learn it.
54:30
We've noticed that too. Yeah, because just even getting
54:33
the reference samples, what does over withered taste like?
54:36
What does this process or that process taste like?
54:40
It's It's so hard to learn. Yes, yes, exactly.
54:42
Because there's no like school here, like we're going to teach
54:44
you about the defects and stuff. Yeah, that's what the school
54:47
needs to be. Let's let I want to learn what
54:48
the defects are. Yes, the coffee industry does
54:51
that. Like, yes.
54:52
Yes, I. Think a.
54:53
White like a Most don't I want to like a share that like right
54:57
education or defect if like people sell this fine defect and
55:00
cannot sell right. Yeah, it's difficult to sell,
55:02
but. If people don't doesn't know
55:04
about the TRO and they can sell right as a unique flavor, that's
55:08
like a taste of the distal world or like this producer.
55:11
There's a thin line between like accepting new things and selling
55:15
as like some random thing. That is true.
55:17
That is what well, like for. For one side, you can almost
55:20
argue that a defect might be someone else's, you know,
55:23
preference. Like a slightly oxidized matcha.
55:26
You know, like some of them. I actually like the flower
55:28
that's from it. Actually you were the 1 I think
55:30
where I first learned the Japanese chicken or matcha can
55:33
have Inca. The Inca bites, the jacid unka
55:36
unka unka bites. And you were like, professionals
55:39
go around cupping these RHR tin cha samples and there's like
55:42
defect, defect, defect. I think you say you described
55:45
it, but then I was thinking, well, maybe someone would like
55:47
that floral taste. Inca, Inca unca.
55:50
Excuse me, Unca bitten. I think that one, I think we had
55:54
that with like Yokoro and then there there was a lot of unga in
55:59
there. So that one we with our limited
56:02
knowledge and experience, but well that one was I collect from
56:06
experience. We tried after receiving the
56:08
like Yokro first month. First two-month was very good,
56:11
like quite nice. But afterwards it just
56:14
deteriorates. Like we, we kept 2 bag without
56:17
opening. So after like 5-6 months we open
56:20
another bag. It's just totally different
56:22
teas. It doesn't age well too, so
56:25
there's. Some wisdom in these defects.
56:27
There there must be something wrong while I get there.
56:31
With the ring flavor mean that when tasty, so it's mean that
56:34
doesn't have so much like a defect from by the insect bite
56:37
because unka and bite bitten by unka mean the small green beef
56:41
hopper, right? And then this one might have
56:44
some like a unique flow of aroma like oriental beauty and the
56:48
defect after storage maybe about that I think control the
56:50
humidity, humidity or maybe something problem the steaming.
56:54
It's kind of like if you get something wrong, there's going
56:56
to be like other things following.
56:59
Up follow on effects. And this is Japanese tea
57:03
actually not so much diversity of the process like Chinese tea
57:07
or Taiwan tea. Actually aviation is very simple
57:11
material. Voyager of the leaf is a low
57:14
leaf is 100% and how much you reduce the defect or reduce the
57:18
minus score. So it's mean the firstly prepare
57:21
the 100th score of the tea tea leaf and how much you don't you
57:27
process without a mistake. It's subtractive.
57:31
It's not additive. Like in the end, like the ending
57:34
products? Could it be more than the
57:36
quality of the raw leaves? Itself difficulty is for the I
57:40
think a young producer or first project who doesn't have
57:43
experience even they made the best to produce a full score of
57:47
a perfect tea. Beef might have a mistake in the
57:49
tea processing and the value of the tea is another high.
57:53
So crazy complex. It's so cool what you guys are
57:55
doing and that's even available. I think Koto T Space honestly is
57:59
one of the greatest places to learn as a consumer.
58:02
It's like no one's talking about this stuff at this level.
58:05
Like when we did this cupping with you in Bangkok a few months
58:08
ago, comparing these different samples back-to-back.
58:11
It's such a great learning opportunity for people.
58:13
So we really encourage anyone or any of our listeners ever in
58:17
Bangkok, you have to go to go to T spaces at least once.
58:20
The ticket were for a plane ticket to go to Thailand
58:23
totally. Worth going out of your way?
58:25
Absolutely. Things like one of our teachers
58:28
mostly say, you know the T samples, we have a lot of T
58:31
samples and then combining with our like experience, we're
58:35
talking to producers and also like observation we discussed
58:38
with them as well. We gradually piling up this know
58:42
how, but I think there's a lot more we don't know or sometimes
58:45
when sometimes we misunderstand or we need to update the
58:48
knowledge as well. But we like As for some people
58:51
who like, like I think many of us is like opening the tea shop
58:54
outside of Japan and then doesn't have access to this kind
58:57
of knowledge of tea evaluations or.
58:59
These references. These references it's very
59:01
difficult. We also like figuring out the
59:04
good thing is that use case Japanese and also like we we
59:08
keep like visiting Japan. Yeah, you guys have some crazy
59:11
access and you guys travel here all the time.
59:13
Yeah, that's. Very nerd.
59:15
Even my knowledge, but not enough to like a talk in the
59:18
more practical right. So I mean, I know there's some
59:21
like people who run who like around the tea business.
59:25
I mean, there's some like small SMB in the Shizuoka and she's I
59:29
think almost around the 70s and reading that he's like A blog or
59:33
10 years ago that she like tasting that tea.
59:37
And they can mention or he can ask the question of specifically
59:42
to the producer anything wrong about this process or for this
59:48
process, this process or the treatment can be a problem.
59:52
And this kind of specification help to improve the producer.
59:56
But I don't think I'm not the level yet.
59:58
Japanese sea has many, many connection, culture side and
1:00:02
also scientific side, more like maybe like a Japanese, like a
1:00:05
nature, like a geology. So the more you know and then
1:00:09
like your resolution is more like a detail.
1:00:12
I think you can discover many things.
1:00:14
And also, you know, about the local culture, local food.
1:00:17
Like, it's really a telescope into, you know, Japan as a
1:00:21
whole, which is very fascinating.
1:00:23
Yeah, also you observing the local people's living also hints
1:00:27
to understand the preference preference of the taste.
1:00:30
So I mean this one also can be the answer why the Yammer area
1:00:35
people like to eat like some thick taste or the Tokyo also
1:00:38
thick taste. But the Shizoga Kyoto is like a
1:00:40
light taste or clean taste. Not just much to the tea.
1:00:44
Yeah, not just tea, but also that everything and especially
1:00:47
water is a highly influential. We can talk about water now.
1:00:53
There's a lot of well around the Kyoto, so you can go and filter
1:00:57
some water that is like recommended by Senori Q or
1:00:59
something like Tea Master and you try to drink differently.
1:01:03
That's interesting. In the old time, like 5-4
1:01:08
hundred years ago, there's some record like people like who
1:01:14
takes water from the Uji River and then do the tea ceremony,
1:01:17
right? So I mean all time, even the
1:01:19
river water is a drinkable some. Industrial Revolution.
1:01:22
Yeah. So Japan is like a rich source
1:01:24
of the cream water and based on this cream water, Japanese like
1:01:28
a full or like a like a habit to develop.
1:01:31
It's very endless, right? So I think what we really made
1:01:35
us into tea is not just the tea itself, but everything around
1:01:38
the tea. So when you learn, we learn
1:01:41
everything around the tea, you meet an interesting people.
1:01:44
It enlarge in your respect perspective.
1:01:46
And also you feel like this is like I can keep going on.
1:01:49
And also you feel like your life is not boring.
1:01:52
Also, like, you can feel that you can spread this kind of like
1:01:55
enthusiasm and the fulfilledness, you know, the
1:01:57
sense of, you know, enrichment to the other people and like or
1:02:01
like a passion. Like you guys like going over
1:02:04
like, from like from US and from Paris.
1:02:07
So here like, just to, you know, like learning things about this
1:02:10
and sharing everything together. So yeah, I feel like this kind
1:02:14
of like action is very meaningful.
1:02:16
And that's what we keep like doing the tea.
1:02:19
Yeah, absolutely. I can't think of a better note
1:02:21
to end on actually. Thank you, guys.
1:02:24
Thank you guys so much for coming on.
1:02:26
We we really appreciate it and for recording for so long.
1:02:29
We actually recorded so long that we had to leave the
1:02:32
restaurant. We're finishing this in the.
1:02:33
Car parking lot. But thank you guys so much and
1:02:37
we can't wait to see you guys again in Bangkok hopefully
1:02:40
sometime soon. And.
1:02:43
That's our quest to the endless of endless knowledge of tea, you
1:02:48
know, keep progressing. We have more and more to share
1:02:50
in the future and you guys have to come to a new episode.
1:02:55
You already got 3 episodes. All right, Thank you so much.
1:03:00
And if you enjoyed listening to this, please consider sharing
1:03:03
with a friend. If you're in Bangkok, you
1:03:05
absolutely need to go to go to T space and we'll see you in the
1:03:08
next one. Thanks.
1:03:09
Thank you. See you.
1:03:10
Thank. You, everyone.