Latest / The Front / Mushroom clash: Simon Patterson’s courtroom confrontation with Erin’s lawyer

Transcript

Mushroom clash: Simon Patterson’s courtroom confrontation with Erin’s lawyer · The Front

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: It's Thursday, August fourteen, twenty twenty five. A scoop today
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: from our US correspondent Joe Kelly. The US Defense Department
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: wants to step up collective defense with Australia and Asian allies,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: including Japan, before twenty twenty seven, the date it thinks
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: China might be capable of invading Taiwan. The Pentagon is
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: happy South Korea has increased its defense spending, but is
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: concerned by a recent speech in which Anthony Albanezi praised
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Australia's World War II leader John Curtain for standing up
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to the.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: US and UK.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: You can read that exclusive right now at the Australian
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: dot Com dot u. It was a powerful moment in
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the murder case that's captivated the world the day Aaron
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Patterson's husband, Simon, who believes his wife repeatedly tried to
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: kill him before she murdered his parents and aunt, clashed
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: with his wife's lawyer in court today, the moment we
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: haven't previously been able to report. Nobody knows the story
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: of mushroom killer Aaron Patterson better than John Ferguson, the
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Australian's associate editor. Ferg broke the yarn of a mass
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: poisoning event in Country Victoria way back in twenty twenty three,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: a remarkable piece of newsbreaking that grew out of John's
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: decades of shoe leather reporting and contacts. Then John sat
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: through all the pre trial hearings and the murder trial itself.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson was convicted of murdering her husband Simon's parents
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Don and Gail Patterson, and his auntie Heather Wilkinson, by
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: serving them beef Wellington she had deliberately laced with deathcap mushroom.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: She was also convicted of the attempted murder of Simon's uncle,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Ian Wilkinson, the only survivor of that lunch. Today ferg
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: is reporting something we haven't previously been able to bring you,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: a previously suppressed exchange between Simon Patterson and Colin Mandy
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: sc the barrister representing Aaron Patterson.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: Simon Patterson is not an aggressive person, I wouldn't say,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: but he certainly was unhappy with I suppose the nature
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: of the questioning.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: This happened at pre trial hearings before the Victorian Supreme
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Court back in October twenty twenty four. On October fourteen,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Simon Patterson was called to the witness box to be
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: cross examined by Colin Mandy, sc council for his wife.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Patterson told Colin Mandy, an acquaintance, Jess O'Donnell, had been
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: giving him advice about how to handle the media requests
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: he was getting. We've used voice actors to bring you
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the exchange from court. Colin Mandy speaks first.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: And what advice has she given you about the public
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: relations approach?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: She's advised me to consider what happens after the trial
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and has suggested I consider how I might tell my
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: story after the court process is finished.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: Has suggested how you might consider telling your story. Does
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: that mean in relation to some kind of publication that's right?
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: How to communicate in public?
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: Writing a book? That was one suggestion, an extensive interview
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: with a major news network that's been discussed. Has she
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: indicated to you, Well, she's prepared to start investigating those options. Yes,
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: and obviously for financial reward to.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: You, Yes, that would definitely be a part of it.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Well, that would be the only reason you were doing it,
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: wouldn't it say that again. Sorry, That would be the
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: only reason you would be doing it, wouldn't it.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: That would be the only reason I'd be telling my
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: story in future. Yes.
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: No, What are the other reasons you might have for
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: telling your story in public in the future.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I think there are quite a few reasons why that
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: would be a good idea. The local community is grieving
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: because of what happened, and a lot of people are
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: keen to know what happened, and I think informing them
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: of what happened would help with their grief. Another reason
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: is that it's possible that you're here to damage my
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: reputation because you're paid by Aaron and I believe she's
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: tried to harm me and now her mouthpiece, and that
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: will shape the media narrative. That potentially creates a risk
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: to me that I would potentially need to mitigate after
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: the trial's.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Over for considerable financial reward.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: There could be considerable financial that's a potential. Yes.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: What did it reveal for you about how Simon Patterson
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: was feeling at the time.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that Tom Mandy is
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: a front foot lawyer and he was doing his job.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: But what you get in pre trial tends to be
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: a more robust environment because with a jury.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: He was very clear that Simon Patterson will.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: He's very much a victim amongst all this, and so
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: victims to have to be treated carefully a little bit
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: different in pre trial because you don't have a jury.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that mister Mandy wasn't respectful or it
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: wasn't doing his job. He was, but I think Simon
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Patterson really took exception to the idea that he would
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: want to have some sort of financial gain out.
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: Of the misery that had been inflicted upon his family.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Colin Mandy didn't come back to this line of questioning
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: in his cross examination of Simon Patterson during the trial.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: What do you think we can draw from that?
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of what was said in pre
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: trial didn't make its way to the actual trial. It was,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: in some senses interesting. I suppose that there would be
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: a media adviser and that sort of thing, But media
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: advisors in these situations aren't abnormal. This is not the
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: first time that someone in a massive family crisis has
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: got media help. I remember back at Beaconsfield it was
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: one example. There were media advisors or agents walking all
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: over the town.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: That was when miners were trapped underground in Tasmania.
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: That's right in about two thousand and six.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Another one was on Black Saturday, the bushfires Victoria in
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: two thousand and nine.
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: Obviously a lot of victims.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: There were media people doing a lot of pro bono
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: work to basically help out. And I think this is
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: more where jess o'donald's role is. I've met her very
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: much as social justice person and I think she just felt, well,
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: she can help the family out.
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: Now.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: Now the evidence was that she's getting paid for that.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: How much it wasn't declared, but you know, there's probably
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: a fair amount of good will involved in this as well.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Right up until the beginning of the murder trial, Aaron
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Patterson was also facing other charges related to her alleged
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: attempts to kill Simon, attempting to poison him with things
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: like a curry wrap and pasta. What happened to those charges, John,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Why were they dropped?
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: We've never been told, but you and I can talk
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: about what we might think happened.
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: So that was at the.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: Beginning of the trial, I think ultimately, and this came
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: out in pre trial as well, that the prosecution case
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: wasn't as strong as they would have liked, and that
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: they took a decision that they had a strong case
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: on the three murder charges plus the attempted murder charge
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: against Ian Wilkinson. So they've in a sense rolled the
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: dice and said we'll go with this because we know
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: we've got a strong case. And they did have a
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: strong case. But under the process we now know, with
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: the suppressions being lifted and the pre trial discussions being
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: made public, that it's the totality of the evidence, not
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: necessarily the limited evidence that was put to the jury
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: that makes it such a compelling you know she did
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: it case because I think, having even and I having
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: sat through the pre trial, it was very hard to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: think otherwise.
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: However, I still it wouldn't have surprised me if there
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: had been a hung jury.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: Im more that a small number of people might have thought, well,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: was there enough evidence there to get it across the line.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: So I think the prosecution knew they were on to
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: a winner, and that's probably why they chose not to
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: go ahead with the other attempt at murder charges.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: It's a pretty confident move, isn't it by the prosecution,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Because if they had failed on the murder charge. They
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: would be left with a choice to charge Aaron Patterson
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: again with the attempted murder charges about Simon Patterson, or
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to just let it go.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: I reckon.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: You know, it's all speculation, but I reckon they would
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: have really struggled to have just let it go because
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, she's no Lindy Chamberlain. It's very
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: obvious that the jury has done a good job, and.
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: It would have been very hard.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: I think it's pure, it's hypothetical, but ge if she
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: had got off, it would have been very hard for
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: them not to go back and try those Simon charges.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: The other aspect of that is they did come up
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: with some potentially new evidence about the use of rat
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: poisoning for one of those Simon charges, which was raised
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: in the Court of Appeal, but we weren't given a
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: lot of detail about so you never know. They may
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: have come up with more information that could have been
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: used against her.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Once you know this information that her husband believed that
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: she was trying to kill him, and that he had
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: been in a comer, he'd had to have serious surgery,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: he was paralyzed at one point, it really changes your
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: impression of Aaron Patterson, doesn't it. What's been the reaction
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: you've observed from people since we have been to publish
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that information.
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: It's really interesting, Claire.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: We're in this environment where people just believe what they
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: want to believe. I don't think people even bother to
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: fail themselves as the facts. They generally go, wow, yeah,
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: she's as guilty as sin or no, this is a conspiracy.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: And if you bother to go into all the facts,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: you go, well, it's clear in my view she's guilty.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: But if you don't bother to going to the facts,
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: where you just stick to whatever position you have, you know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: it's a modern curse that people very much run down
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: the whichever burrow they want to run down and then
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: stay down there.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: I think coming up another revelatory moment about Simon Patterson's experience.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: There was another moment in Simon Patterson's time in the
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: witness box, this time during the trial itself in more
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Well in Country Victoria. Remember, because the charges of attempted
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: murder relating to him had been dropped, Simon Patterson wasn't
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: allowed to talk about that in the witness box during
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the trial. He was only allowed to give evidence related
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: to the charges over the fatal Beef Wellington lunch. The
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: jury was sent out after Simon Patterson had begun giving
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: evidence because Justice Christopher Beale had an important question for him.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: The judge asked if Patterson was aware that, as the
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: spouse of an accused person, he had a right to
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: object to giving evidence. The judge wanted to know if
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Patterson had been made aware of that right.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't know. I couldn't. I didn't know I
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: had the right to object, But I don't object. And
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: also I have a small request for you, please. The
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: legal process has been very difficult as a witness, especially,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: and that is why I say it to you without
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: the jury here, especially the way it's aggressed in terms
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of the charges relating to me and my evidence about
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: that or non evidence. Now, I guess I have to
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: grieve and am grieving a lot about all this stuff here,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: as I'm sure you can imagine. One thing that is
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: really difficult is not being able to follow what happens.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I haven't been as a witness, and for understandable reasons,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: I haven't been able to follow along throughout the trial.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: The judge told Simon Patterson he would be able to
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: follow the trial live stream or sit in the court
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: as soon as he had completed his own evidence.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I understand and I appreciate that. Thank you all the
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: hearings that's led up to this, all the discussions about
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: the way we got to this point here where I'm
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: sitting here half thinking about the things I'm not allowed
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: to talk about, and I understand. I don't actually understand why.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: It seems bizarre to me, but it is what it is,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: your honor, would you be able to make available after
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: all the legal proceedings have finished, the trans grips of
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: all those hearings, including the trial, for me to be
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: able to as I grieve, the legal process to help
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: me deal with that grief over It'll take me years.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: The judge said he'd think about Patterson's request, and then
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the matter was swept away by the epic trial. Now,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Simon Patterson's wife is in jail considering her prospects for
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: an appeal while he and their two children try to
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: rebuild their lives. Colin May was asking Simon Patterson about books,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: about film deals, about anything that he knew that might
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: be in the offing, and what Simon Patterson ultimately said
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: was that he was getting lots of requests to lots
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: of offers, but that he hadn't committed to anything and
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: hadn't discussed money. What's your understanding now, John, of where
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: he might tell his story and how.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: I think the most likely avenue is a podcast that
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: he'll probably do himself.
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: It wouldn't surprise me. If there's a book.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: I'm guessing it's probably more likely to be in his words.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: My understanding of him is he doesn't necessarily want a
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: filter placed over what he thinks and says, and that's
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: why you're not likely to get a sixty minutes tell
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: all interview or whatever, because I think a lot of
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: people sort of don't understand perhaps where the Patterson family
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: might come from. They're country people, so you know, they're
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: not straight out of Pitt Street. They're very much keep
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: to themselves country people, and it's not in his culture.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: I don't think to necessarily want to sit in front
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: of a TV camera to tell the full story.
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: But don't be surprised if you start hearing from him
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: sooner rather than later.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: John Ferguson is The Australian's associate editor. You can read
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: all his remarkable recording right now at the Australian dot
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Com do