Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Episode 129 – Lars Tolumnius and the Fate of Fidenae
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the Partial Historians, Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:34 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad. Dr G 1:12 And I'm Dr. G. And it's the history of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr Rad 1:19 So let's recap where we were up to last time, Dr. G. So last episode, we talked about a teensy bit of 439, as far as I'm concerned, but it was mostly 438. And apart from the Maelius, shamoozle that we were clearing up on murder most foul, it would seem of an equestrian who's just trying to make it rain grain. Dr G 1:41 And ended up in the pool of treachery! Dr Rad 1:44 That's right. We had instead a switch from domestic problems to foreign problems. Dr G 1:51 Yeah, there's nothing like in a Etruscan King to get under your skin. Dr Rad 1:54 Indeed. So we had the introduction of Lars Tolumnius, an Etruscan King Dr G 2:00 Of Veii Dr Rad 2:01 Yes apparently comes into our orbit because basically, the Romans had established a colony at a place called Fidenae. And they had decided to switch their allegiance from the Romans to the city of Veii which is Etruscan and hence the involvement of an Etruscan King. Dr G 2:19 Hmm. Dr Rad 2:20 And when the Romans sent for ambassadors to be why you got to be that way, while you leaving us, yeah, their response was apparently to cut their heads off, which may have been on the orders of Lars, or he might have actually been doing something else trying to multitask and ended up in a very messy situation. Dr G 2:41 Also, it's a bit of a mess if you think about it, because these are Roman historians trying to tell us what's going on with Fidenae, and it seems like they can't credit Fidenae with coming up with this idea for themselves. Dr Rad 2:57 And Livy certainly is on the side of Tolumnius ordering the murder, or at least making it seem like he was ordering a murder because he wanted Fidenae to be committed to this revolt that they were in. Dr G 3:13 Yeah, man on the ground. Dr Rad 3:15 Yeah, so we ended up with four ambassadors who lost their heads, but once the statues in the city of Rome Dr G 3:22 Headless statues? Dr Rad 3:26 I didn't mention that one was called Ickabod. Anyway, so that was really where we were up to with 438 which means Dr G that it's time to travel into 437 BCE. Dr G 3:57 It's 437 BCE and Dionysus of Halicarnassus my major source? Yes. cuts back in partway through this year. I'll have some things to tell you. Yeah, but let us start with the multitude of characters. This is like a cast of 1000s Dr Rad 4:14 It is yeah 437 seems to be quite the year to a Roman and Dr G 4:18 it is if you're gonna get famous and have a big part in Roman history, it might be in this year. We have consuls are returned to the consulship everybody. Marcus Geganius, son of Marcus grandson of we don't know who Macerinus. And Lucius Sergius, Son of Gaius, grandson of Gaius Fidenas. Dr Rad 4:43 Coincidence? I think not. Dr G 4:45 a patrician Yes. So and we also have and this is perhaps a foreshadowing of things to come in this year. A suffect consul as well. Do you usually only get those when you have to replace one of the other consuls for some reason? Yeah. Dr Rad 4:59 You have to suffer the suffect. Dr G 5:02 and this is Marcus Valerius son of Marcus grandson of Manius Lactutua or Lactucinus - which sounds maybe more more Latin - Maximus so Dr Rad 5:18 It's sounds like breastfeed breastfeeding Dr G 5:20 handful of a name handful of a man. And then we also have a dictator Dr Rad 5:26 So soon? Dr G 5:27 So soon you say, yes, we've entered the era of dictators, dear listeners, so be on the lookout Mamercus Aemilius son of Marcus grandson of we don't know who Mamercinus. Dr Rad 5:41 There's one that I really struggled with last time so so it's Mamercus Aemilius is Namur kindness or mana sinus, Dr G 5:51 okay? Yes, he was one of the military tributes with concealer power from the previous year. Dr Rad 5:56 I wish the Romans wouldn't have tongue twister names. It's not good for the English we needed to be raised on romance language. But there is the master of the horse to accompany the dictator course. And that is the young Cincinnatus - famous in all the wrong ways. And now he's back on the scene. Yeah. So he also was from the previous year if I remember correctly. Dr G 6:18 One of the military tributes with consular power. Yeah. So two buddies hooking up again for another year of fun together. And that's after his daddy. As in Cincinnatus daddy had just been dictated himself. Yeah, maybe not. Yeah, so now he's stepping through the ranks. Absolutely. We've also got a couple of legates mentioned Marcus Fabius Vibulanus with Fabian Yeah, he was previously consul in 442. So quite recently, yeah. And who we think is Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus. For Dr Rad 6:51 Oh for heaven's sake. Will that man ever retire? Dr G 6:55 No. And also somebody known as the tribute of the soldiers in my account. Yes. We'll see how this goes for him. Yes, but hold on to your horses. This is the name out of all of that list. The one to remember Aulus Cornelius Cossus. Dr Rad 7:11 Yeah, yeah, that's what I've got to Yeah, Dr G 7:14 a patrician. And there's going to be some interesting things going on with old Cossus. So yeah, keep your ears peeled. Dr Rad 7:22 Oh, my goodness. So clearly, we're in for quite a year if we got this many magistrates on our cards. It sounds Dr G 7:27 like a Roman disaster already. What is going on? Dr Rad 7:33 I know, I basically we've got this situation, right, where war is clearly on the horizon, because you can't just ignore the fact that four of your ambassadors just had their heads cut off. Dr G 7:44 It is awkward, but to ignore it would make it worse. Yeah. Dr Rad 7:47 You can't kind of know the murder on sir. Fortunately, there is no conflict over the issue of the levy. Because the Plebeians and the tribunes are sensible enough at this time around Dr. G, to know that brain needs to come together. They need to unite, because that's the only way they're going to be able to deal with the Etruscans. Dr G 8:12 Oh, yes, because laws to learn this is still on the scene. Dr Rad 8:15 So because obviously rooms in a bit of a difficult situation, no surprises the plebeians, and the tribunes don't raise any objections to consuls being elected this time around, because they understand that unity is important in this moment here. And so we have as we mentioned before, Marcus Geganius Macerinus and Lucius Sergius Fidenas now Livy, he mentions here and we are going to come back to this guy's name, that he thinks he got this name because of the war that he was fighting. So obviously fighting to get back to the colony if we need to restore things to how they should be in the Roman mindset. And he got this name apparently, because he was the first man to fight a successful battle on this side of the Anio. Against Lars Tolumnius. However, he does highlight that this was not a battle that was easily won. So a lot of the Romans are obviously pretty sad, because so many people died in this battle. And therefore, even though they did win, it was a bit of a tricky situation. Rome's not in exactly the place it wants to be. And so the Senate ended up deciding that they want to appoint a dictator, the Mamercus Aemilius, and he chooses as his master of the horse, another guy who's sprung up from the year that we were just talking about who'd been a military tribute with consular authority, none other than Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus or Cincinnatus Jr, who is described as being a young man worthy of his father and therefore I have conceived and instantaneous dislike to him. Yeah, anyway, so the consuls of course help out here. They decided they're going to, you know, levy the troops and they make sure that they include some veteran Centurions amongst the number. Guess they think they can be facing quite the fight here which is a fair call. The Etruscans are pretty powerful at this point. Yep. So dictator Mamercus orders type Titus Quinctius Capitolinus and Marcus Fabius Vibulanus to be his lieutenants and that's where they come into. Ah, okay. Yeah, so they're gonna be serving underneath him. And of course, they're from pretty elite clans. I got the connections gratis Fabians. Dr G 10:27 Hard to resist a fabulous Fabian. Dr Rad 10:29 Exactly. Yes. So you know it gets pedigree going on here. Yeah, what Livy points out here is that when the right man is chosen to be dictator of Rome. And when that position so high and mighty is united with that correct, man, well, there's no one that can stand in Rome's way. That's just the way it works. The position is elite. The man is elite. Such a marriage in heaven. So anyway, that's just I think a bit of a hint about where this is all going about how it's all going to go for Rome. Livy's got his narrative knickers in a twist. Yeah, exactly. So as a result, the Romans carry off. They're able to push the enemy right out of their territory across the Anio River, the enemy, the Etruscans, they ended up withdrawing into their camp, and they set themselves up on the hills between Fidenae and the Anio river. And they are not going to come down into the plains until the forces of the Faliscans come to help them. Then the Etruscans themselves set up camp before the wolves of Findae the Roman dictator retires to his camp, which was also obviously in the area to prepare for battle. Now, this is where in the enemy camp there is a little bit of problems, because not everyone is convinced about what the next move should be. These Faliscans are kind of restless, because they're away from their home territory, and they're feeling you know, pretty confident. Okay, pretty, pretty ready for things they're definitely keen to, you know, get right back into things here. But the people of Veii and Fidenae they want to take a slower approach. Okay. I think you know, what time might be on our side here. Okay, so King Tolumnius, thinks, you know what? I agree with my fellow people here, I think that slow and steady might win the race here against the Romans. Okay. I mean, they're clearly raring to go. Okay, Dr G 12:44 We wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction. Dr Rad 12:46 Yeah. However, I think he feels a bit emasculated because he's got these Falsicans FalIScans is such a weird name for people. And I think he feels like It'd be embarrassing for him not to just go right into it not to launch straight ahead. Dr G 13:04 Lars, Lars, Lars, this is how you lose. Dr Rad 13:06 Yeah, so he and he didn't want to obviously lose their faith. He doesn't want them to go back home and be like, You know what, if you're not going to use us, we're just going to go back home, because they clearly want to go back. And I'm enjoying this little holiday of this. So he decides he is going to fight the very next day. Now meanwhile, the Romans and their dictator I feeling very positive because somehow they seem to know that there's some hesitation amongst the enemy about what it is that they're going to be doing. So the Romans start threatening that they're going to attack the cat that they're going to attack the city of Fidenae if the enemy doesn't enter battle, so they're going to bring the battle to then if they are like, reluctant to fight or something like that Romans posturing, so the armies phased out the the armies March and they are facing off against each other. Now they have sent across some extra men and they've dispatched a particular party across the mountains to attack the Roman camp during the fighting clever because presumably then the Romans you know, attention will be diverted and they'd have to split their forces to defend their cat so basically once a move Yeah, what we've got there for is the enemy troops. We've got Veii on the right wing. We've got the Faliscans. Faliscans, Faliscans on the left wing, and we've got the people from Fidenae right in the centre. Dictator Mamercus Mamercinus. He's going to advance on the right and take on the Faliscans Capitolinus is going to be sent against the people of Veii on the left. Dr G 14:46 Okay, so one of the senior legates. Dr Rad 14:48 Yes, absolutely. And then we have master the horse. Cincinnatus. Son of the famous Dr G 14:53 Junior Dr Rad 14:54 Yeah Cincinnatus Jr. Yeah, he's going to be attacking the people from Fidenae right in the centre Dr G 15:00 All right. Dr Rad 15:01 All right. So this is the scene, and everything falls quiet. The Etruscans are holding back, seemingly not wanting to fight, unless their hand is forced, the dictator is looking back towards the Citadel in Rome. That's right, because he always had assured him that they would send a signal, Dr G 15:26 I was gonna say there has to be a sign of birds at this point, doesn't there? Dr Rad 15:30 just letting him know that everything was looking good according to the heavens, and that he could therefore, embark on the fight. And sure enough, the signal is given. And a dictator sends his cavalry right into action, followed by the infantry. Yes. Now I'm gonna stop right here, Dr. G, even though it's a very enigmatic moment. Dr G 15:56 it's a tense moment Dr Rad 15:57 it is. Because this is where I have to start flagging some of the problems with this account. So basically, this conflict with feed name is going to last on and off for over a decade, according to our sources, right? Okay. Yeah. The like, yes, things are going to get settled, but then they're going to flare up again. And there is definitely some confusion about which order the events really happened in and what definitely happened when, okay, this is the first of those moments, which has raised the little hairs on the back of the necks of scholars, because they're like, that doesn't seem possible that you could see the citadel of room maybe from the position that you're supposedly in. Dr G 16:48 Yeah, like, I mean, we know where the Anio river is, we know where Fidenae is, yeah, you could reasonably send somebody out there to go and have a look. See? I mean, the hill scape of Rome is not the same today, as it was then. Some of those hills have had the tops knocked off them. Dr Rad 17:07 Yeah. So it could look, it could be one of those things. But this is where academics and like, yeah, not buying it, because you see, there's going to be another battle in 426, fairly much the same players, you know, we've got room and fitness and all that kind of stuff going on. And again, we have the storage hole that a Roman commander didn't start fighting until he received a signal. Dr G 17:28 Oh, yeah. But yeah, like, I'll level with you. This is a very appropriate way for Romans to go about battles. I don't think as a scholar, that's not the point where I'd have the question. Dr Rad 17:41 I think it's when you take it in consideration with the other things I'm going to flag Dr G 17:46 Yeah, Dr Rad 17:46 it's like a potential like, did it happen exactly like this at this moment, but Dr G 17:50 waiting for a sign for like, whether it's appropriate to go into battle or appropriate to go into war. That's all totally aboveboard, as far as like the Romans are concerned, Dr Rad 17:59 No I think it's more specifically the idea that the dictator at this point in time would have been able to Dr G 18:05 Turns over his shoulder Dr Rad 18:06 and look at the Citadel of Rome. Dr G 18:09 And they're like, ah ha, Dr Rad 18:10 yes. Yeah, I think there's just a little bit of like this. This is the same story that's told later on. Yeah. When the Romans are fighting the same people. Yeah, there is some confusion here. Dr G 18:22 the same story told 10 years apart. And I have to say, This builds in really nicely with what we've already flagged in the previous episode. Which is, we've got some annalistic disparity about when things are happening. Yeah. When people are holding the consulship when people are dictators in this period, and there is about a slippage of about 10 years. Dr Rad 18:42 Yeah, absolutely. Dr G 18:42 So are we dealing with a story that gets retold twice? Or are we dealing with what is the same story, essentially, and we've lost some years? Yeah. And actually, the annalistic. Historians don't know yet. What happened for some of these and they've gotten caught up in their numbers. And they've counted things incorrectly. Yeah. Which is highly likely. Yeah. And it's now at this point where some of their miscalculations are starting to play out, and they happen to fill in the gaps with some stuff Dr Rad 19:09 then anyway, to resume the battle. So the Etruscans obviously, they're having to fight now because the remedies be given the signal they're launching. So the best fighting for on their side is apparently coming from their cavalry, particularly from Lars Tolumnius, who's quite a heroic brave King time. He's kind of leading the charge. He's like running all about trying to scare the Romans being Orpheus like rah, rah, rah, Dr G 19:35 the Romans like Stop jumping around like that Dr Rad 19:42 made me drop my sword. Yeah, hate Dr G 19:45 it. I hate it, fighting the Etruscans For this very reason. Dr Rad 19:48 Now, this is where the guy that you flagged earlier comes into his hands. On the Roman side, we have as what are the attributes of the soldiers when Aulus Cornelius Cossus He is very, very handsome. Dr G 20:04 Oh, my sources don't mention that. Well, well, Dr Rad 20:08 I've got quite the visual here. Dr G 20:11 Very handsome, you say well that put things in a whole new light. Dr Rad 20:14 So he's very, very handsome. He's also courageous and strong. I mean when you expect nothing less. Now he's very proud of his family name, Cornelii. But he wants to make sure that he makes it even more famous than when he received it. Dr G 20:36 Fair enough. It is every patrician's duty to increase the family reputation. Yeah. So good for Aulus. Dr Rad 20:43 Exactly, yes. So he can see that one of the big issues that the Romans are facing is the Etruscan King, Tolumnius is causing chaos on the battlefield. So he decides, you know what, I'm gonna take this guy down myself. And so he decides to charge him armed only with his work not armed and then with his spear, but with his spear, ready. And he strikes Lars right off his horse. And then he jumps off his horse with his spear, and violently stabs him so violent that Lars is pinned to the earth with this spear. Oh, yeah. And so then he takes all the spoils from the body. So this would be his weapons, you know, his armour, all of that kind of stuff, shield Dr G 21:32 underpants Dr Rad 21:34 very important. And then he chops off that head of Lars Tolumnius and puts it on his spear. I presume he took the spear out of the body goes back into the earth at this point of time, and he uses it to terrify the Etruscans. And as a result, this contributes greatly to the Romans being able to take down the Etruscan cavalry. Dr G 21:58 Oh, I have a slightly different version of events. Dr Rad 22:00 Look, I've no doubt that you do, because I am also going to raise questions about the way that this is all going down, but not right now. Dr G 22:07 Let me give you the comparison, Dionysius of Halicarnassus doesn't give us much but he gives us some things. Okay, so this is Roman Antiquities. 12.5. Yeah. And so we have you know, Aulus Cornelius he's not described as being incredibly handsome, which is a real shame. Change the whole visual for me, but he does spur his horse against Tolumnius. So Lars Tolumnius it seems to be as as any great commander on a horse Dr Rad 22:34 Totally, Dr G 22:34 and so is Aulus Cornelius and when Tolumnius gets to Lars he drives his spear through the breast of the horse. So yeah, so Lars Tolumnius' horse gets speared First of all, which forces the horse to rear up and throw the rider off. So yeah, Lars Tolumnius ends up like flat on his back on the ground his horse is in great pain. Yeah. And then Cornelius turns and drives the point of his spear through the shield and through the breastplate, of Tolumnius into his side, so through two layers of defence. And while Tolumnius is trying to raise himself up after like having this spear stabbed through his shield, and his breastplate, and his side, yeah. What Cornelius does is he takes his sword and pushes it through Tolumnius' groin Dr Rad 23:31 oh, what? And that is how he slays the king of the Etruscans oh my god, it's brutal. Dr G 23:39 Yes. Then he strips off his spoils. Yeah. So all of the armour, the underpants everything. And then he defends the spot. So nobody else can take the spoils from him, or do you take him down? Yeah, because he was in close quarters. And he'd gone into like, you know, the Etruscan line to get there. And it was that moment. This becomes a huge moment. Yes. So in terms of moments in Roman history, yeah, as horrific as this is, regardless of how either source describes it. This guy become he does increase the fame of his family. And the reason why he has is because he joins the really illustrious ranks, of which there is only currently one at this point in time. Yeah, of a Roman who, in hand to hand combat defeats the enemy commander, Dr Rad 24:31 I was gonna say we don't often see this kind of squaring off of the leader, you know, leader versus leader or or anyone versus a leader. It's yeah, it's not super common. Dr G 24:42 It's not super common. There are only three examples. So Plutarch in his life of Romulus gives us all three examples. Nice. Romulus Surprise, surprise is the first he slays Acron of the Caenesians so that we was a long time ago. Yeah, in the founding of the of the city and so forth. But the next person is Aulus Cornelius Cossus right now in what 437 BCE for killing Lars Tolumnius. And then it's we don't see this again until 222 BCE. Wow. So for people listening in one to watch on the horizon coming up soon, about 200 years time, Claudius Marcellus overpowers the king of the Gauls, known as Viridomarus and sometimes referred to as Britomartus. Okay. And these are the three examples of all time Dr Rad 25:42 wow, that's it, I knew is a big deal, but I hadn't actually looked at the numbers. Dr G 25:47 Yeah, so and Claudius Marcellus is like years in the future. And so at this point Cornelius Cossus is equal to Romulus Dr Rad 25:56 Who we're pretty sure it's mythical. Dr G 25:59 But who is like, you know, a legendary figure in Roman history and to liking yourself to Romulus through this act, yeah, is an incredible way to enhance your family's reputation and your own. Dr Rad 26:14 Absolutely. Wait a moment. So this turns the tide of the battle for the Romans, the dictator, friend, and then anarchy as he's able to come along, chase after the fleeing enemy, all the way to that account where he massacres. Anybody that's managed to make it that far, however, live, he does know that because they're Romans obviously fighting in the territory of the enemy here. And the people of feed now obviously have pretty good knowledge of like the local area. And so quite a few of them are able to make a getaway into the mountains. cosas comes back in here, he's able to cross the table with his Catterall being like, yeah, collecting all this booty. Yeah, Dr G 26:59 check out the spiral. Yeah, Dr Rad 27:01 there is, of course, also a fight happening now at the Roman can, because last alumnus before his rather sad, had sent this diversionary party. So we've got failures video learners defending the cat. Luckily, he was there with the reserves or the tree Rei who work basically kept back until absolutely necessary in this battle. You know, they didn't want to use them unless they were in a real crisis point. And they waited until the enemy was distracted. And then they tacked one. They basically got like, out of one of the main gates of the Roman camp and managed to secure victory for themselves. Yeah, pretty good. Dr G 27:44 So this is getting back to this issue of like timing with this kind of thing. Yes, this idea that for DNA is defeated. And it is problematic, I suppose if it happens now, because we're certainly going to see them sort of revive and come back. And our sources tend to suggest that there is a point where they are completely destroyed. Yeah. And this doesn't appear to be that time. And yet we do get some conflation of this point. Yeah. With that point in the future. Yeah. Because we there's discussion of the spoils being one from last Lemonnier Yeah. So causes, takes these back, gets a trial, dedicates them to the Temple of Jupiter Farah Tereus, which is the special place for that kind of thing. And in the same instance, in this source of it, I've got here, which is florist. So this is a writer from like the early first century, late first early second century CE. Yeah. So I mean, reasonably far away from things talks about how in the end for DNA is defeated, not through this kind of battle. Yeah. But through a whole broader series of strategic underground mines and traps and things. Dr Rad 29:10 Okay. That might be one of those things. Dr G 29:13 Yeah. But it's all bundled up together. Like, yeah, like these things are all sort of like happened around about the same time, which is kind of not useful when we're thinking about early Roman republican history, because we're like, we kind of want to know when things actually did happen. Not bundling 10 years together in one and big like, well, you know, 426 is a bit like 437. So I shall be right. It's just Dr Rad 29:36 wishing to get it. Yeah, no, that's just it. This obviously is seen as one of those big moments for Rome because the Senate decreed and people agree with the Senate that that all of this is triumph worthy. But Costas is the one that definitely gets I think most of the attention, unfortunately for him and because he doesn't get quite the attention that you might think Given that he's the dictator in charge, Dr G 30:02 I'd be annoyed if I was the dictator right now like, I Dr Rad 30:05 mean, he still gets the accolades, I suppose but yeah, it costs us he's definitely getting the most attention. I particularly like this detail that apparently the soldiers under him saying rude verses about him comparing him to Romulus because of the whole route versus Yeah, I like that detail. Yeah, because of the whole spoiler up in our thing, which as you say, he does dedicate to the Temple of Jupiter Farah trees. And the people then requests that the dictator give Jupiter on the capital A golden chaplet, which was to be a pound in weight from the public treasury. Wow, wrap up events here. All right. Yeah, exactly. Fancy. I know. So yeah. There's all that kind of stuff going down. But this whole moment of Roman conquest, everything, as you say, just become significant later on. It's something that the Romans obviously want to remember. But their memories seem to be a bit hazy. Dr G 30:57 Well, yeah. And there's obviously like the the event of two alumnus being killed in this way. Yeah, by courses. And that being positioned as such a rare event. Yeah, that happens. Yeah, that sort of means that they have to remember this. There's no way that they couldn't. And certainly, yeah, it gets a bit confusing, though. So I've also got you Tropius, who's a source from the fourth century see, wow, yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, for hundreds of years after these events, people are still talking about them. Yeah. And you Tropius talks about how the for Dante's they rebel against Rome. And you know, vai is on their side and Tulum nurse gives them assistance. Yeah. And they are defeated by Marcus Amelia is the dictator. Yeah. And so this puts us in a different sort of timeframe as well. Yes. And, but Lucis Quinto, Cincinnatus, Cincinnatus, Jr, is named as master of the horse. So there's like this sort of conflation of details from one year with another year. This is not the year that a Marcus Aurelius is dictator. But we are in a period where we're gonna see a lot of dictators. So yeah, it's gonna come up, I'm sure No, Dr Rad 32:10 and isn't this exactly, because we've got this conflict clearing up again in 428, four to 27. And as you say, the names of the people who are dictator and master the horse, sorry, names of people that are dictated similar. So we've got that Emilio's character again, and then we've got cost us in some accounts named as master of the horse. Dr G 32:27 Ah, yes, and horses. So the thing with courses is, and I've got a whole nother section on this. So other sources that deal with this, we've got prepurchase book for poem 10 On the Origins of Thera tree and Jupiter talks about the three examples. So Costas is talked about in there, and he actually mentions that the gods aided the Latin hands so his hands are being sort of helped by the divine forces. And to lameness is severed head washed Roman horses in blood. Wow. Yeah, thanks, prepurchase. Yeah, and then we've got sexes or really as Victor. And so I really liked so as again, it talks about Cincinnatus, Jr, as the dictator, and Cornelius courses as the master of the horse. And these two will end up in this situation, we think a little bit further on. So this is again, jumping. So there are moments where courses, we're not sure what position he held? Yeah. When he engaged in this moment. Yeah. But it would make sense that he was perhaps higher up in command than just a guy in the battle apps with some sort of tribute ship. So perhaps holding a higher position of more distinction would make a greater moment of glory for this defeat. But this means that the war with laws is taking a whole sort of 10 years to play out rather than like a single year, which Dr Rad 34:03 Yeah, and this is one of the things that's been pointed out by one of the academics that I read, he commented that to lameness is death, in this case is taking place in the first year of what will be an on and off again, conflict. And he kind of asked the question, I will doesn't entirely make sense that him dying in this year would add up potentially him actually dying in the final year would make sense because then they would have no reason potentially, to continue to backup feed me and they revolt against Rome. So perhaps the death of telomeres actually was something that took place much later, in maybe in like, you know, 426 or something like that when we're dealing with this flare up of the conflict again, and that the confusion might arise obviously from the name so not only the people that we've already highlighted, but the fact that we do have This guy with a surname feeding us mentioned in connection with the conflict. And so this apparently is that the first time that circus is is a console, and there is a tribe of the Serbia near feeding me, Dr G 35:17 oh, it might just be a family connection Dr Rad 35:19 or might be a family connection. And you know, certainly a common common additional name that they used or in this early period of the Serbia clan is they did use this, this surname feed now. So potentially him being a magistrate in this year meant that they wanted to put some of the details of the conflict in this year, potentially, potentially like that. Yeah, definitely. Dr G 35:45 And also, there's that Roman tendency to minimise enemies to a certain degree. Yeah. And do you really want to put it out there that this really took 10 years to put it down, and it's like, it's a bit problematic, it doesn't look good for Rome to be in a conflict for that long, not in this period. But it would make sense for it to be true. Because we can see that Rome is certainly not preeminent. Dr Rad 36:15 And there might have also been some confusion about terminology. So apparently, when we get to 426, and we're getting to the tail end here, Levine makes a reference to the Roman classes fighting in the battle. Now, some people took this to mean that he was referring to the fleet. And therefore this somehow must have meant that there were ships involved in the fighting maybe on the tire bar, fighting in this war against feed in a but what Forsythe has pointed out is that classes must have just met the Roman military Levy. You know, as we've talked about, there is this distinction between these two groups, the classes and the infra classrooms are the people that that classify and the people that don't basically make it into this military role at this point in time, so the people who were in for class and the like out of that, they don't have that kind of a role in society. And that might be set up with the power dynamics we're seeing with patricians versus plebeians, maybe being something to do with that distinction as well, in terms of those who serve the state and those who don't serve this. In that sense, obviously, the complexities of it all I know. So there are a lot of questions here. But once again, we have to highlight that obviously, with those statues being erected to the ambassador's there is this archaeological, potentially evidence. And also, as you pointed out, the search volume of Mr. That's one by courses, that also would be something that presumably, there'll be some traces of, by the time you get, oh, Dr G 37:54 yeah, it gets caught up, and it gets connected to other things. And certainly, Augustus, for instance, he's very interested in this boiler optimal that is in that temple and trying to date it precisely. So there is a sense in which this is really important to a Roman sense of their understanding of the history. Yeah. And so causes can't just fall out of the narrative, he has to be somewhere. And he has to do this thing at some point. And it's just a matter of where it comes up and how it unfolds. Dr Rad 38:23 Yeah. And then, of course, there is the golden crown that Livy mentions, whether it's dedicated by the dictator in the capital and tempo to commemorate this victory over FedUni. So there's that again. So there are these pieces of actual physical evidence that might be tying things together. And I am interestingly, just going to note something about those ambassadors doctors all do. Yeah, there is a bit of questioning around the names of these ambassadors, oh, we do have a couple of different versions because being a statue, it's something that crops up in a couple of different accounts. So typically, Pliny the Elder and his natural history, you know, with all the wood loves that kind of stuff, random facts that he records, but also Cicero mentions the names as well. We do have these slight differences in their names, but clue alias and naughty years, we are pretty sure that they are patricians. However, the others, the one I said, rocked roseus Yeah, exactly. There are questions about him and full sinners about their patrician status. Okay, that potentially again, as we've talked about before, it's not a precise science. But given the ways that the names are used later on, it seems that we only really know plebeian people with those sorts of names Dr G 39:39 in tourists. So once Dr Rad 39:41 again, it kind of raises the question of does that mean that this is just a patrician branch that's died out, you know, or some sort of other confusion like that, or is it the case that you didn't actually have to be patrician to be in the Senate? Huh? Dr G 39:59 Or huh? Do not draw your ambassadors from the Senate. Can they be drawn from elsewhere? Dr Rad 40:05 I think from memory they weren't mentioned as being from the Senate. But I will do it Dr G 40:12 which it would be very interesting for there to be any plebeians in the Senate. Point it worked. That's that's part of the reason why I asked the question. Dr Rad 40:21 No, it is obviously one of those things where it's like what, but as we talked about before, academics have sort of raised questions about but we know for sure that there are certain religious positions and political Majesties, which plebeians don't seem to be able to hold at this point in time, certainly. But the Senate is one of those things that's not often specifically targeted by plebeians as being we want to be in the Senate. We want to be in the Senate, which might Dr G 40:45 suggest they're already there in some capacity, Dr Rad 40:49 potentially. But yeah, obviously, it's all very circumstantial. It's kind of looking at the absence of evidence in some ways, rather than actual, Dr G 40:58 concrete evidence, the realm of ancient historians. We love a good absence. Dr Rad 41:04 But anyway, I think that's probably a good point to wrap up for 37 a lot of confusion and certainly you will be hearing mention of these people again, because the whole situation was fitting a is not resolved. Dr G 41:17 Yeah, it make it keep coming up. And we might see Costas do his thing again for 26. Sequel sequel, last alumnus rises from the dead early to be re killed by the same man who killed him the first time I'm going Dr Rad 41:33 to spoil Yeah, that up Irma all over again. All right, Dr. G, that means that it is once again time for the virtual big. All right, so Dr. G, this is a chance for the Romans to pick up a total of 50 Golden Eagle, we've got five categories and 10 Eagles and each up for grabs. Dr G 42:00 Well, well, well, the first category to consider is military clout. Dr Rad 42:07 Well, I mean, this is definitely, I mean, can you not give it Dr G 42:12 like, yeah, 10 I mean, as far as what Libby is concerned, what Finn knows destroyed right now? Well, I Dr Rad 42:18 mean, he he says, there's a lot of massacres and stuff. He has hinted that, you know, some people escaped into the mount. Oh, but certainly, it's been a decisive victory. I mean, to be honest, just because it costs us alone. And the fact that they allegedly killed the Etruscan king here seems to have been pretty cool. Dr G 42:35 Yeah, I mean, we have to give it to the very handsome causes. So I think, Dr Rad 42:39 yeah, I mean, we might have to give him 10 Eagles, again, in a few episodes. But I at the moment, just for the sake of clarity, I think we have to say, look, we're going to agree with our sources, even though there's some confusion. Look, Dr G 42:50 yeah, yeah. Even if we disagree with the sources, as far as the sources are concerned, there was a great victory in this year. Yeah. And it's over for DNA. And the Romans showed excellent military clouds. So that's 10. Eagles right there. Dr Rad 43:04 Exactly. Okay, so next category is diplomacy. Dr G 43:10 Well, is war the greatest form of diplomacy you've ever seen? I don't think so. Well, in that case, it's a zero. Dr Rad 43:18 I think we have to assume that diplomacy is broken down and conflict going on. Not that I actually blame the Romans for that this time around. Dr G 43:25 Okay, so no score. I don't think so. Okay, well, expansion, Dr Rad 43:30 kind of, I mean, they kind of reassert themselves over feeding a, but it was already this so Dr G 43:39 well, but feed Nate was lost. And we did give them a minor score for losing feed. The last point. Yeah, so one point for rigging isn't really an expansion. It's just regaining what's theirs as far as they're concerned. Okay. So one point for that. We're tourists. Well look causes 20 Golden Eagles right there. Knock, you know, the ballpark. Nobody's seen anything like this is Romulus? Dr Rad 44:02 Exactly. On top of which he got all the other guys. You know, you got Fabius got capital, Linus. You've got mimickers everyone's doing a great showing. Yeah. So join us all around. I think it's probably got to be another attention. Yeah, absolutely. It's Dr G 44:17 Romans. Yeah, boy, put them in war. And all of a sudden they're doing great. Dr Rad 44:20 They shine, huh? What would it be like Dr G 44:23 to be a citizen in Rome right now? Well, I Dr Rad 44:26 mean, okay, we might be a bit suspicious sometimes when we don't hear a lot from the citizens about how they're actually feeling. However, my account does say that they were, you know, happy to jump on board this time around because they recognise that ambassadors had been murdered and that the Etruscans were being a problem. So it's bad news, guys. Yeah, I mean, and obviously, the fact that they secured a victory even though room some of our citizens plebeians might occasionally have a problem with some of rooms other citizens patricians. At At the same time, I think they do share certain values. I think they still will be pleased by this turn of events. Hmm, yeah. All right. So Dr G 45:09 about a five. Yeah, I Dr Rad 45:11 think so. I mean, they apparently, you know, saying dedicated the crown the dictator is like, no problem. So, and I agree that these men deserved a triumph. So yeah. Got on board with the party. touchy. Hold on to your toga Dr G 45:27 mathematics. Yeah, Dr Rad 45:29 this means that room has scored 26 Golden Eagles. Oh, I'll pass over 50% for the first time, and I actually don't know that they didn't. Dr G 45:45 Long time. A long time. Wow. room. Okay. Well, it Dr Rad 45:51 just goes to show all you have to do is single handedly defeat the great and glorious commander of your opponents in battle and steal all his stuff. And Hoo, boy, yeah, yeah, really dramatically changes the situation rooms back in the saddle. It really is. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing how they're gonna follow this one up. Dr G 46:11 Probably with a terrible school Dr Rad 46:14 thing. I mean, you have to again, wonder I'm just gonna finish off on this note, Dr. Jean. We have often noted that when Rome goes through a bad period, miraculously there's this amazing military campaign or something like that, that happens just afterwards, she makes you forget about all the horrible stuff that happened when they you know, murdered an equestrian who was providing grain for everyone. So part of me does have to wonder are they potentially also moving things out a little bit in the timeline because Rome's just been through such a tough period. Well, I put a damper on this parade. Dr G 46:46 Stay tuned as we find out whether these narratives directly paralleled in 10 years time indeed. Dr Rad 47:04 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. We are especially grateful for the support provided by our Patreon and today we'd like to give a special shout out to Sharon Robin and Dr. G's favourite. 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