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The Epstein Question: Power, Secrets, and the Fear of Truth · Bourbon & Rum

0:08
Welcome to another episode of Bourbon and Rum.
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This is a podcast of two brothers from opposite ends of
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the spectrum. My name's Kent, I'm a rum
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drinker, and I'm from the left side of the aisle.
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And I'm Kyle. I, like bourbon, tend to be a
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little more conservative. Join us as we explore this
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experiment. Can two brothers from different
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sides of the political spectrum have a civil conversation and
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celebrate our differences? What are you drinking?
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I am drinking cream of Kentucky cask strength cream of Kentucky
0:59
is an old brand that been around a long time.
1:02
And then this guy and I don't have his name handy, but this
1:06
guy that came from 4 Roses who was like the master distiller 4
1:09
roses took over and they started making their own juice.
1:12
And it's a really good high proof.
1:17
You know, it's 100 and almost 100 and 18120 proof and, but
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just a really smooth kind of kind of sweet, like I like it
1:25
kind of a low rye. And yeah, it's, it's really
1:28
tasty. And my local liquor store had a
1:33
pretty good deal on them. So I bought a couple of these
1:35
and yeah, it's pretty good. How about you?
1:36
What are you drinking on? Oh, I'm drinking cheap cruise
1:40
and rum in a cocktail with lemon juice and falernum syrup.
1:46
So a nice kind of a rum sour or technically a Barbados cocktail,
1:52
but quite a good sipper on a warm day.
1:55
You know, I got to ask you before we move on, you know,
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there's this huge demand and high dollar for bourbon.
2:02
There's magic that happens in the cask, right?
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And over 10 years, some insane things happen and you get this
2:12
magical product. But we live in a world where we
2:16
live in a world where we put a man on the moon 50 years ago.
2:19
Like, is there no chemistry that they can use to kind of fake
2:25
aged whiskey? Well, a lot of.
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Places there's a distillery not far from us here called Oak and
2:33
Eden. And what they do is they have
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all these and they make like 3 or 4 different types of whiskey,
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but then they've got all these flavor infused.
2:42
Like I forgot what they call them, but these Spears of wood
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and they throw it in a bottle with it and they all take these
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different flavors. But yeah, like, couldn't you put
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it in a barrel, like in a vacuum and suck it out against the wall
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somehow? There's got to be some way you
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could. Yeah, or figure out the thing
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that makes it smooth is the three parts per million of
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Xanobacterium or whatever. And you know what I mean?
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Like it. It just seems like at some point
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maybe it's just not at scale, but that.
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'D be good brand laboratory whiskey.
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What's the what's the latest? Yeah, the news so far from the
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Gaza situations encouraging. I don't know if they're going to
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actually follow through. I think the deadlines coming up,
3:35
Well, I think the deadlines come and gone.
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So I don't know what that means. You know it.
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I like the idea of an effort of some kind.
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I saw a news report that supposedly Trump had a call with
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Netanyahu and said, Nicole, why are you so effing negative?
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You know, if that's true or not. But I mean, you know, I think a
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lot of people could probably see that a little bit.
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I mean, the guy does seem to not be real, you know, like he
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doesn't even care if they get a, a solution or not.
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I I think other people are wanting some kind of
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humanitarian resolution there. Yeah, I saw that too.
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And I thought, wow, Netanyahu is one of a handful of people in
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the world who's a bigger asshole than Trump.
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And Trump telling him to F off is probably, you know, it was
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one of those moments where I looked at it and was like, well,
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yeah, yeah, can't argue with that.
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And part of the deal with Netanyahu is that peace for
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Israel means he gets run out of town at the end of a bayonet.
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You know, he's in serious crosswise with all of the people
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and you know, so it's it's a weird situation where you've got
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a guy who his own personal future honestly benefits from
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extension of the conflict. You know, him being a peacemaker
5:00
only puts the country in a place where they can have a rational
5:03
discussion and very likely get rid of him.
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So by all means, if if peace can be had, and if this is the kind
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of thing where Trump could be useful, I no shade.
5:18
Yeah, I mean, I like the fact he's trying and I to me, part of
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this is it's an iterative thing, like you're going to try one
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thing. OK, that'll work.
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OK, try something else. I I'd like I would rather
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somebody try a bunch of times and fail a bunch of times then I
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try at all. Yeah.
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No, I'm with you on that. I I think, I think the reason
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he's both the reason he's good at some of this kind of thing
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and the reason he struggles with others is that I think his own,
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you know, I'm past trying to psychoanalyze Donald Trump, but
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I think that his whole, his whole personal calculus is
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pretty linear, right? Am I doing better or worse?
5:57
Am I making money? Am I losing money?
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And if you extend that to national interests that can get
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you some places that's a reasonable yardstick to lay the
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US interests again, is it good for us?
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Is it bad for us? But man, you're talking about
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the Palestinian conflict that it, it doesn't lend itself to
6:17
that kind of clean deal making And and Ukraine the same, right?
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It it's not really about square miles of territory.
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There's there's a much deeper cultural game being played
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there. I mean, at least with, at least
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with Ukraine, Russia, I mean, you got 2 entities that govern
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themselves. Like if you could agree on a
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stopping point, both countries are viable.
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I think the problem with Gaza is it's just like, well, what the
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hell are you going to do with it?
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I mean, you're not going to integrate it with Israel.
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And then, I mean, what I was reading about the plan is the
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concept is that Hamas would step away and they would agree to
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come in with some like a third party, like some type of
7:03
governing body, kind of I'm, I'm probably screwing this up, but
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like prompted and agreed to be by these multiple Gulf countries
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that are helping broker this thing.
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And so you get some governance organization that may be able to
7:19
be legitimate some way, I don't know.
7:21
Yeah, boy, I it, it is interesting though, because
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Netanyahu slow shows no signs of slowing down or backing off.
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And you know what was, I think like right after Trump tweeted
7:35
something, yeah, they, they sent another 20 missiles in, you
7:39
know, like. There's.
7:41
You know, and, and Putin doing the same thing.
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I, I I don't know. It's kind of like, it's kind of
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like what we talked about. I mean, you're not going to get
7:49
a negotiated solution with an all or nothing attitude.
7:53
And both Putin and Netanyahu and Hamas to the same extent and
7:58
Ukraine to the same extent, they all have this all or nothing
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thing. Like nobody wants to give an
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inch. Well, how do you negotiate with
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that? You know, and it's great if one
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side has, OK, they have a winnable solution, but they're
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both kind of quagbires. I mean, it's not like either any
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of these sides are going to go. When right, no all or nothing
8:19
solution any of the you mentioned 2 conflicts, 4 sides
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in two conflicts. There's no all in one solution
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that is even remotely tenable in either of those in any of those
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4 cases. Yeah.
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So we just deal with ongoing conflict, Speaking of conflicts
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to which there's no immediate and apparent resolution.
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Even as we speak, our government is not functioning and will not
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be for probably what, at least a week because they've taken a
8:48
vacation now? Yeah, I mean, you'd made a
8:52
comment, you know, we were trading barbs on tax and you'd
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say, well, I mean, the Republicans are in charge, so
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why do we have a government shutdown?
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But it's like, I mean, the plan was just, hey, we'll do ACR and
9:04
continue negotiating. But I mean, I think the
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Democrats are a little more nuclear option.
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Like, no, we're not going to agree to the CR until we get our
9:11
demands. And I guess maybe they're doing
9:14
that because they feel like they won't have any negotiating
9:17
leverage to negotiate an agreement.
9:20
So this is their only leverage point.
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But it, you know, it does seem like a lot of mental gymnastics
9:29
both ways because everybody wants to pin any shutdown on the
9:33
other side like, well, this is your touchdown.
9:35
No, this is your shutdown. And it's like, I mean, again,
9:38
it's kind of back to the negotiation thing.
9:39
I mean, neither side wants to give, you know, and how you pin
9:44
that on one side or the other. Yeah, no, I agree.
9:47
I'm not sure that I agree that the Medicare subsidies is the
9:52
hill that I would die on if I were Chuck Schumer.
9:55
But I do think it's important and I think that it's risky to
10:00
not dig in on this. They took a pretty big beating
10:03
the last time. You know, one of the problems is
10:06
that we're talking about ACR at all.
10:09
Like it's an insane way that we do things that we just keep
10:12
kicking the can down the road. So like, I think the whole the
10:17
whole setup is preposterous. Within that setup, yeah, this is
10:21
an issue that's important to Democrats and important to
10:24
Democrat voters. There's a pretty wide slice, I
10:29
can't remember the numbers, but it's millions of people that if
10:34
this doesn't, if the, if the Medicare, if the Medicaid cuts
10:39
go through, their paying for health insurance now and it's
10:43
going to go up by 100 to 150% for working people, not rich
10:49
people, that that's a big deal. And it's a, you know, I, I think
10:53
that they're concluding the Democrats are that that's a
10:57
handful of million voters that they're not willing to leave
11:01
hanging out. Again, I don't know if that's
11:03
the right, the right thing to pick or not.
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But I, I, I stand by what I said though.
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Look, the Republicans control the White House, the Senate, the
11:12
House of Representatives, and arguably the Supreme Court.
11:15
If you can't look, yeah, we have a system where you have a
11:20
minority, where you have super majority requirements for
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things. If if you don't want to have any
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Democrats ever slow you down, well then rig every election and
11:31
rig and gerrymander every election.
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I mean, if they voted for the CR, they haven't given up
11:37
anything. All they're saying is they're
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going to, they're going to negotiate for.
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I mean, do you think if if you were a Democrat legislator,
11:47
would would you trust that Mike Johnson is negotiating in good
11:49
faith? I guess what I'm saying is you
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can't have it both ways. You can't say, hey, we all of a
11:56
sudden are going to not vote to keep the same spending that the
12:01
previous administration had, or you're going to, you're going to
12:04
do this. But then I think you do it and
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you say, no, we are shutting the government down because we want
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this XY and Z. But it's like the part that gets
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me is it's like in action would be just to keep the CR alive and
12:17
they kick the can down the road to keep negotiating.
12:20
They're they're picking a fight and their response is what is
12:25
shutting the government down. Yet they don't want to take
12:29
credit for picking the fight. So it's like, why not just take
12:32
credit for picking the fight? But it's like, no, I want to, I
12:34
want to argue about it, but then I also don't want to.
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I want to blame the other guy for me picking the fight.
12:40
You know, it's just. No, I get what you're saying,
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but you got no power, right? So you your only power, your
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your only lever if you're the Democrats right now, is this
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like that's your only that that's your only leverage if you
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roll. And then it gets back to your
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and then it gets back to your point.
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Is this the hill that's going to get you the White House?
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Very debatable. I'm not sure that they picked
13:06
the right issue politically. Some of that was in I think was
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touched on in that Gavin Newsom clip I shared with you.
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You know, I've read other commentators discussing from a
13:18
Democrat standpoint, like, OK, if, if this is you got one
13:22
lever, but when do you pull that?
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What's the what's the issue that you that you make your your
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stand on? And is this a universal enough
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issue that it's worth the fight? And I I don't know the answer.
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Well, and, and then you get to kind of what I texted you and
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honestly, I kind of think is like, and I, I know Trump's
13:46
talking about it, but OK, shut the government down.
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We're still going to have a Defense Department, a war
13:52
department. We're still going to have the
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essentials. So the non essentials don't get
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done. OK, Well, I mean, that's a
14:00
rational belief. If you don't think that any of
14:03
the other functions of government are worthwhile.
14:07
I believe that. I don't know how long it takes.
14:09
Like there's some quantum that I don't, that I don't know.
14:13
But there comes a point when people are frustrated with this
14:17
and they're sick of it. And look, hardcore Republicans
14:21
are always going to think this is the Democrat, this is the
14:23
Trump administration that says that it rains and it's radical
14:28
left wing Democrats have caused the rain.
14:31
Unless you needed the rain, in which case he takes credit for
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it. Like it's like the the blaming
14:35
is ludicrous, but well, I don't know.
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I don't think Trump's got a corner on that by any means.
14:43
That's a no. I'm just saying political
14:45
system. OK, so hardcore Republicans
14:49
think that the Democrats did this.
14:51
And, you know, I think even most Democrats realize what's going
14:55
on here. We're playing a game.
14:57
The people in the middle in this country who are the ones that
15:00
decide elections, by the way, you and I have no, you and I
15:04
have no bearing on a presidential election and
15:06
haven't for 40 years. It's the people in the middle.
15:10
And I think that I think most people look around and say,
15:13
what? Wait, who's the president?
15:16
Who's the speaker of the House? Who's the Majority Leader of the
15:18
Senate? And who has the votes and the
15:20
government shutdown? You know, today it's not hurting
15:24
anybody. Yeah, to me the and that's the
15:27
thing I'd love to see. I don't know what be interesting
15:30
to know and maybe we can link AI could ask ChatGPT it.
15:33
But how long has the government that been down?
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What's the longest government's been shut down?
15:38
Because my hypothesis is the damn thing could be shut down
15:41
for two months and it's not going to matter.
15:44
Three weeks sticks in my mind as the as the time.
15:48
I guess my point is, in my mind the government being shut down
15:51
is not a problem. Well, yeah, but because in your
15:56
lifetime, the extent of it's only ever been about 3 weeks and
15:59
it gets resolved. And so stuff that happens,
16:02
although things that happen monthly like releasing jobs
16:05
reports, we're not doing anyway because we don't like the
16:08
numbers. So maybe maybe you're fine that
16:11
we should just not open the government.
16:14
If the government's illegitimate, maybe it shouldn't
16:17
be open. 35 days December 2018 to January 25th, 2019 Donald
16:24
Trump was in in office. Republican Senate.
16:28
Democrat House. So how do you decide what's
16:30
essential? Legitimate question.
16:33
Like apparently BS made-up reasons to invade American
16:38
cities that's a reason to keep the government going.
16:42
I know we're, we're playing popcorn subjects here, but you
16:46
know, Gavin Newsom's like, well, we're over here invading the
16:51
cities. Are are are we launching
16:55
Hellfire missiles into apartment complexes?
16:58
No. You got people peacekeeping on
17:01
the ground. OK.
17:03
Peacekeeping. What keeps operating Military,
17:06
national security, air traffic and Transportation Safety.
17:09
Border security and law enforcement.
17:11
Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, Postal Service,
17:14
Congress, power grid, weather forecasting, emergency run
17:18
spots, food safety. OK, OK.
17:22
We're good. Well, look, and I acknowledge
17:25
that you think the government should be smaller.
17:27
And in that sense, this is, you know, this is a win for you.
17:32
I actually think the government should be smaller myself, but I
17:37
think it should be done strategically.
17:39
So I think it's a bad idea. Don't you think though?
17:42
I mean, aside from shut down or not shut down?
17:47
Why is that? At some point, if you ran out of
17:51
money, I guess you just print money.
17:53
I guess what this tells you is the government of the United
17:56
States is an eternal entity, because you're never going to
18:00
get rid of the essential stuff. Well, yeah, I mean, this is kind
18:04
of getting deep political philosophy though.
18:07
But I mean, money only exists because of, because of the
18:11
government. I, I hear people say this all
18:14
the time and, and, and I know what you mean, but this like,
18:17
well, they just print money. But yes, of course they do.
18:20
That's exactly how it works, because that's what money is.
18:24
Money is an expression in this. I mean, there's a lot of, you
18:29
know, economic definitions, but it's called a Federal Reserve
18:33
note because it's a marker that says the Federal Reserve's going
18:37
to back this. And so whatever we, if we need
18:42
to print more money to do it, you pay for that by diluting the
18:45
rest of the economy with inflation.
18:47
Yeah, it's more like, hey, we're going to issue more shares of
18:50
stock. Yeah, the United States Treasury
18:53
never runs out of money until the last dollar in your pocket
19:00
is spent. I mean it is the collective.
19:04
Yeah, I think run out of money is when does the value of the
19:08
dollar get so low that it's you can't print enough, you know,
19:14
or. Yes, and that has happened.
19:16
I mean, it's not. And so I don't want to
19:17
trivialize that that that has definitely happened in history,
19:20
Germany in the 1930s for one. But I guess the point is that
19:25
you that the government doesn't really even like states.
19:29
Cities go bankrupt and have to reorganize, but States and
19:34
cities don't print slips of paper with governor's faces.
19:40
I'm like, well, but you know, can keep going.
19:43
It does. I know we're getting a little
19:47
deeper into the sling here, but like it does kind of suggest
19:51
though, like OK, what if Congress just was completely non
19:56
functioning? There's no bill.
19:58
I mean, the government could run indefinitely in a shutdowns.
20:04
State, there's going to be stuff that doesn't get done, but most
20:08
essential stuff is going to continue.
20:10
So then it becomes like, how important is the rest of
20:13
government if all these things just keep chugging along and
20:17
how, how does that impact the checks and balances of
20:20
government if oh, we shut down the government, but the
20:22
government keeps chugging and the deep state keeps running.
20:25
So like, you're not really in charge, guy.
20:27
Well, I, I think there's some truth to that.
20:29
And in times like this, that's a comfort to me, and A and an
20:34
irritation to you. But believe me, that flips the
20:37
other way. I don't, but you say it's a
20:39
comfort to you. I, I guess where I was going is
20:42
more this whole fear that again, I thought that Gavin Newsom
20:48
podcast was rich when he talked about Donald Trump, you know,
20:52
eliminating democracy in a totalitarian take over.
20:56
And I look at Gavin Newsom and his actions during COVID where
20:59
he basically created a police state.
21:01
But in any event, you could make the case that if a feckless
21:06
Congress can't pass a budget and the government keeps operating,
21:10
the Congress isn't even in power.
21:12
Trump's running the whole, you know, I guess where I'm going is
21:15
you could actually make that the case that a quote, UN quote,
21:20
shut down government. It's just the whole government
21:24
being run by one guy. Which is one of my great worries
21:26
about this and the threats to just fire people rather than
21:31
furlough them, you know? And like, yeah, I'm worried
21:34
about that. But the check and balance on
21:37
that is that Vance the wannabe is going to have to run on this
21:42
record. And so I guess.
21:43
I'm saying though, if if the Congress is that
21:46
inconsequential, they they make themselves irrelevant if they
21:51
can't do anything. I think fair enough.
21:54
The counter argument is that they're already irrelevant
21:57
because they do whatever Trump tells.
22:00
Johnson does whatever Trump tells him to.
22:02
Period. Anyway, so they've handed over.
22:05
Well, but is that ever? Is that any different?
22:08
I mean, Pelosi would do whatever.
22:10
I think the opposite. I think Biden wound up doing
22:12
what Pelosi told her to, to a degree so.
22:15
OK, but I'm just saying there was a union there.
22:18
There's there's a union. We have a we have a historically
22:22
weak Congress right now. Historically weak.
22:25
OK, I think the it's an, you could say it's a historically
22:31
weak opposition, but I don't, I don't think that the presidency
22:34
and the Congress agree and do things the same.
22:37
The Democrats are terrific at that.
22:39
They all fall in line and do whatever the the guy says.
22:42
I mean, they've all been very much more loyal to the president
22:46
than the other way around. In fact, this is a rare thing.
22:49
I mean, the first Congress, they didn't, they butted heads with
22:53
Trump all the time. Most Republicans in Congress and
22:57
the president's butt, butt head. I, I don't know if you can put a
22:59
stat on that, but you know, that's always been the
23:03
criticism. The Democrats in the Congress
23:06
and the presidency stick together a lot better than
23:08
Republicans have. And because you know, you see,
23:10
you've seen that multiple times where you had a Democrat
23:13
president in Congress and they got all these priorities done
23:16
because they all stuck together and did the same thing versus
23:19
many cases you had the Republicans and they could never
23:22
get anything accomplished. So I don't, I don't think that
23:25
Trump's and Johnson's union is that different than others that
23:31
have been on the side of the Democrats.
23:33
The difference is just that they're Republicans and usually
23:35
they don't stick together like that.
23:37
Yeah, and how much of this honestly, ultimately is so they
23:41
don't have to vote on the Epstein?
23:43
That all gets back to that. Well, it does.
23:47
How in the world are we at the point that we are right now?
23:52
And there is still, Did you catch the new representative
23:57
from Arizona that they refused to swear in so she couldn't vote
24:01
for the resolution to release the Epstein files?
24:04
How bad must this be, Kyle? How how bad must this be that,
24:10
you know, we've said it before that consecutive
24:14
administrations, Trump, Biden, Trump the presidency doesn't
24:18
want anything to do with it. And now the Congress, like who
24:22
the hell are they afraid of? And yet they are apparently
24:27
terrified. Both sides are terrified.
24:30
Agree, except there are a small number of Republicans and a
24:35
large number of of Democrats who are willing and ready to vote
24:39
for a resolution to release the files, and they're being
24:43
administratively and procedurally blocked at every
24:45
term. Like refusing to swear in a
24:47
Congress person. Who was it there?
24:49
I'm trying to remember just in the last week or so some pretty
24:53
high officials said Epstein was ACIA asset.
24:58
I couldn't believe it. Did you see?
24:59
I think it was Lutnick. Oh yeah, we talked about that.
25:03
I think it was who, I don't know what the what the setting was.
25:08
And then he was. His next door neighbor, Blotnick
25:11
was his next door neighbor in New York.
25:12
And he went over there and they go in like, like the first time
25:17
they go in there, and I'm paraphrasing, but like, there's
25:21
Epstein opens his double doors and there's this huge living
25:24
room with a massage table in the middle.
25:26
And Epstein says to Lutnick, oh, yes, I get a massage every day.
25:29
And he's like, and I get the right kind of massage.
25:32
And Lutnick is like, this guy is disgusting.
25:35
And his wife left and they never went back.
25:36
But it's like. That whole story that he said,
25:39
again, I'm with the forum that Lutnick was speaking in and
25:42
again you talk about strange bedfellows.
25:44
Not exactly am IA fan of Howard Lutnick, but it was clear to me
25:50
this dude walked in, looked around, said no, want no part of
25:55
this, and walked out. You know who didn't do that?
25:59
Like everybody else, apparently. You know how?
26:02
How is it that Howard Lutnick's the only one with a soul in this
26:06
thing? Looks around, says this guy's a
26:07
creep. I don't want to be here.
26:09
We're leaving. He said in the podcast that he's
26:12
the greatest blackmailer ever. That should tell you something.
26:16
Yeah, yeah, he lived next door so that Epstein once showed him
26:19
and his wife a massage room at Epstein's townhouse and made a
26:22
suggestive comment to him. Our secretary said he and his
26:25
wife decided they'd never be in that room with that disgusting
26:27
person ever again. But he said what happened to
26:29
that massage room, I assume was on video let Nick said this guy
26:32
was the greatest black man ever. Black male people.
26:33
That's how he make how he had money.
26:35
That's he thinks that's how he got all his money.
26:38
I assume way back when they traded those.
26:40
He said, I assume way back when they traded those videos in
26:43
exchange for him getting that 18 month sentence.
26:45
I mean, he's a serial sex offender.
26:46
How could he get 18 months and be able to go to his office
26:49
during the day and have visitors stuff?
26:51
There must have been a trade. There must have been a trade for
26:53
the videos because there's people in the A. 100% like state
26:58
the obvious. Yeah, it's so messed up.
27:02
Like I can't. So here's the part that really
27:05
has me head scratching now, and I'm wondering if you've got a
27:08
thought. You know, I'm not a conspiracy
27:10
guy, but like this is just I can't imagine a more plain clear
27:17
crystal circumstance. Exactly what Lutnick said,
27:20
right? Like he apparently had the goods
27:24
on enough people, people in high places on this is CIA whatever.
27:29
So let me ask you this, why has nothing leaked or has it leaked
27:34
and people just deny it? I don't know what's up with
27:36
that. Well, and that was our dad's
27:38
thing always about anytime we talked about government
27:41
conspiracy, his thing was like, you know, everybody leaks.
27:45
I mean, if there is some of these huge conspiracies,
27:48
somebody would have said something somewhere.
27:50
Yeah. So no, it was a James O'Keefe
27:52
thing. So Glenn Prager, a long time
27:55
investigator with USDOJ, he worked on the F Jeffrey Epstein
27:58
case, recently claimed that Epstein was CIA asset.
28:02
In an undercover video released on September 24th by James
28:04
O'keefe's Media Group, Prager said that Epstein was protected
28:08
from full prosecution because he served as ACIA informant and an
28:12
asset for the United States and Israel.
28:14
He added the DOJ avoided pursuing Epstein aggressively to
28:17
shield powerful figures involved.
28:19
The claim gained traction in late September 25 and then
28:23
earlier last month that Representative Polina Luna
28:28
suggested he was likely for an intelligence asset without
28:30
special on CIA. But this guy's comments and, and
28:34
this was I, I mean, undercover, he's talking a lot more freely
28:40
than he would be talking in an interview.
28:42
Right. It makes some sense in that that
28:47
might have avoided like both parties wanting to have him
28:51
talk. Like, what the hell does that
28:53
mean that you're an agent for the CIA in Israel?
28:57
Like let's just, let's just contemplate that, like how are
29:01
they using you as an as an asset for both countries?
29:04
I don't know, but you know, it related to that.
29:08
OK, so the conventional wisdom is that he was ACIA asset and
29:16
it's to protect people in positions of power that this is
29:20
going down. But wait a minute.
29:22
It would appear that Joe Biden and Donald Trump are just pawns
29:27
in this whole drama. Like who are the powerful
29:32
people? Like who would they be afraid
29:33
of? Yeah.
29:34
And Bill Gates is our, you know, has already been implicated
29:40
here. Like, who are we talking?
29:44
Who's got something to lose at this point?
29:48
Right. Yeah, I just don't get.
29:52
And you know, Lutnick must be right.
29:54
I mean, he figured out a way to keep everybody paranoid.
29:59
I mean, that is quite a feat. Right, He figured out what we
30:03
can't seem to How do you make Republicans and Democrats unite
30:07
around an idea? Well, you know, Grock's got this
30:11
conspiracy mode and like you bring up everybody, we were
30:15
playing with it last night, like, well, of course so and so
30:19
that's just a conspiracy. Like everything's a good.
30:21
But like, like Dad would say though, you know, you know, like
30:24
the UFOs and all this stuff where the credible report, I
30:27
kind of feel like with UFOs, you're starting to see those
30:30
come out now. There are like actually fairly
30:32
credible people saying that they exist.
30:35
It's odd to me in the Epstein case, nobody is saying it, which
30:42
I mean, this guy wasn't that much of A genius.
30:44
But that's interesting what what Nick was says because
30:46
everybody's like, well, how's the guy a billionaire?
30:48
Well, if you blackmail the hell out of people that are worth a
30:52
ton of money, I mean, if you're blackmailing Bill Gates, you
30:56
make some money. Yeah, I, I mean, I guess I kind
30:58
of presumed all along that that was the source of his wealth.
31:02
And it started with Les Wexner, which, you know, I don't, I
31:06
don't know how that played out, but you know, that he that he
31:10
had that, that figured it's, it's just a weird deal.
31:14
And it the longer it goes on without a vote in Congress,
31:19
without any action like, the more preposterous it seems to
31:23
me. And again, I don't think of
31:24
myself as easily swayed by this kind of thing.
31:27
Do you know anybody who's like, Oh yeah, it's probably nothing?
31:32
Right. Yeah, Nobody's like or, yeah, or
31:35
Trump's statement like, well, I don't know why everybody's so
31:37
fired up about this. Like, are they still talking
31:38
about that? Epstein?
31:41
What are you smoking? Crack?
31:45
Like it. It's not going to go away,
31:50
right? I hope it didn't go away.
31:53
I mean, I think it seems like a lot of people wanted to go.
31:55
Yeah, but like, how does that go?
31:57
Like you can't unring that bell. Maybe I'm crazy.
32:02
It it does seem, though, that people are like there's real
32:07
interest. I'm going to throw a shout out.
32:10
There's a a woman who does this is like she is locked in on this
32:17
story. She's got a YouTube channel and
32:21
she does a lot of guesting on on TV stations.
32:26
I've just seen her. Tara Palmeri.
32:29
No. She her YouTube channel.
32:33
I mean, you can't say she is not trying to keep this in the in
32:38
the public eye. And she is, she is worth
32:42
watching. She's she is relentless about
32:45
these things and questioning people.
32:48
And I just, I really have a great admiration for her as a
32:53
journalist. Definitely worth a look.
32:57
I I can't recommend her enough. Tara Palmeri show.
33:02
She started her career in 2010 at the New York Post as a Page 6
33:05
reporter letter advancing to general assignment City Hall
33:08
political reporting, where she broke stories like Chris
33:10
Christie's weight loss surgery. Getting the answers we all want.
33:16
I guess that's right. She's she is a bulldog on this
33:20
story though. She's the one that had, I think
33:24
maybe I told you about this, had Michael Cohen on and she just
33:29
was relentless on him because she believed that he was a part
33:36
of the deal that bought off a Jane Doe during the 2016
33:41
campaign. That you know that that that
33:44
would have come out that Trump was involved and had to pay off
33:48
a woman to avoid a scandal in this in this space woman said
33:52
Trump was part of the game, assaulted her at a party at
33:56
Epstein's. The case got dropped and Michael
33:59
Cohen pretended he knew nothing. Michael Cohen claimed he knew
34:02
nothing about. I shouldn't say pretend.
34:03
Which is odd because you think if he had a way to get it,
34:07
Trump, he would. So like, why is he?
34:10
That's interesting. Well, this whole thing is about
34:11
powerful people. So, you know, maybe he's afraid
34:14
of somebody. The guy, the guy who goes to war
34:17
with the president of the United States.
34:19
And then it's like, yeah, but I'm not touching that Epstein,
34:22
right? Yeah, exactly.
34:24
Well, it just makes you wonder. And again, this it gets back to
34:28
the root of all conspiracy theory that there's some
34:31
powerful, you know, the Q Anon people thought it's a powerful
34:36
group of pedophiles, which, OK, those people I think are nutso.
34:41
But when you see something like this that's not that far out of
34:46
the realm of possibility or you know that there's the trilateral
34:49
Commission. Are you however you want to spin
34:52
it right? If presidents on both sides of
34:56
the aisle are afraid of somebody else, how the hell can that be
35:01
other than there's some more powerful organization And then
35:04
who's that? Because it's not a party of
35:06
government. So it's got to be some, you
35:08
know, But then you you look back as you start investigating this,
35:11
next thing you know, you're like, are we talking about the
35:14
Riddler or the, OR what's a what's a guy?
35:17
The guy in Batman, you know, you know what I mean?
35:20
The Joker 2. Face or Yeah?
35:24
Yeah, you know, like, do we have a joker?
35:26
I mean, then it's like, it sounds laughable, but there's
35:30
something going on here. Well, and the part that really
35:34
mystifies me, I think I think JD Vance's campaign is in full
35:42
swing. You know, I've mentioned that
35:43
before, like when the rumors were that Trump was under the
35:46
weather. And Vance is like, I'm good, I'm
35:48
ready to go. I mean, this guy wants it so bad
35:51
he can taste it. And, you know, at some level, I
35:55
mean, Biden was expendable to the Democrats.
35:59
Trump is expendable at some level to the reply hasn't really
36:02
shown up that way. But right, there's a there's a
36:05
day, there's a point at which it's like step aside.
36:08
We got other things to do. And yet even in that, like the
36:13
one that's most in the dark right now on Epstein, in my
36:15
opinion, is JD Vance. Because I think if he had
36:18
anything on Trump on it, oh man, it would be this awful scandal
36:23
like. I just go back to that.
36:26
I've told you about it before. I don't know if our producers
36:28
ever linked it, but if you pull up that video of Bush seniors
36:33
funeral and what looks like it notes passed around to the ex
36:37
presidents and they all have are pissed off like like, hey, the
36:40
trilateral just communicated to them that Trump's going to be in
36:43
power and that's what it looks like.
36:44
And they're like, oh crap, you know, like.
36:47
Wow, it's so weird. Yeah, I like, I just
36:52
constitutionally can't go down the path of some, you know, the
36:57
the Illuminati running. Yeah, but.
37:03
But you go back, OK, I'm not trying to turn our podcast into
37:07
a conspiracy podcast, but you need kind of going back to our
37:11
conversation earlier about, hey, the government's going to shut
37:13
down and it's going to keep chugging.
37:16
Like, oh, Congress can't agree. OK, that's fine.
37:20
We're going to keep chugging along.
37:23
I mean, people are still going to show up and stuff's going to
37:25
get done and you know it. And then meanwhile, you and I
37:32
and both sides of the equation are arguing over meaningless
37:36
crap. At the end of the day, when
37:39
we're all missing the the it's like the lead got buried, like
37:42
somebody else is running the show and we're all arguing about
37:46
nonsense. You know, it almost makes you
37:48
wonder if that's where we are. Yeah, it feels a little like
37:51
that. I would almost go down that path
37:55
20 years ago when the news was controlled by three networks.
38:00
You you know what I mean? Yeah, but think about how
38:03
effective, whatever this, I can't believe we're talking like
38:07
this, but think about how effective this, you know, this
38:12
cabal must be because if all you got to do is have CBSABC and NBC
38:19
by the cojones, right? I mean, that's not easy, but
38:24
that's feasible. But how do you also rein in
38:29
100,000 podcasters? And you know what I mean?
38:33
Like. Well, but then, OK, this would
38:36
be an interesting topic for a whole podcast of itself.
38:38
Is go in with the assumption that a shadowy cabal is actually
38:44
running the place and look at everything through the lens of
38:48
somebody else running the show. And then you get into like, you
38:53
almost begin to think is the way Trump operates, if somebody was
38:58
telling him is pulling the strings and they say, OK, we
39:01
want you to buck every norm and be, you know, just stir the pot
39:08
so intensely. Is that a smokescreen?
39:13
Because people are going to be so caught up with all the
39:16
outrageous stuff you do, that's all they're going to talk about
39:18
is Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.
39:20
And they're going to miss the fact that somebody else is
39:22
pulling the strings here because if everything else is there
39:25
wasn't any drama and he wasn't, could that then produce less
39:30
cover for the the showrunners, you know?
39:34
I mean, what you're kind of saying is that like I've sort of
39:38
seen the reason that we have a Trump phenomenon is because
39:42
we've got this micro division of news and media and social, You
39:48
know, that everybody gets their own feed from the algorithm and
39:52
that that's divided us up enough so that a bigger than life
39:56
figure like Trump is the logical emergence from that.
40:00
You're kind of saying the opposite, that Trump gets pushed
40:04
on to the world stage to create the diversion because the
40:11
democratization of media otherwise might actually land on
40:16
this cabal. Yeah.
40:18
And then the swing is going to be AOC is going to get groomed
40:22
as the next president. And that's only going to, it's
40:25
just going to get everything going haywire.
40:28
The opposite end of the spectrum.
40:30
And the the ruse continues. And everybody's fighting each
40:34
other at a fever pitch over all these extreme positions, left or
40:39
right. And nobody's really looking at
40:42
the bigger picture. I feel like we need some
40:44
substances to you. I think if this podcast continue
40:48
we may have to upgrade to some type of THC product.
40:51
You know, the the the psilocybin and rum podcast, like it just
41:01
runs against my grain to think of that nameless faceless group.
41:05
But wow that I really I'm really struggling for to navigate this
41:13
because so much stuff seems pretty obvious.
41:16
Where do you go with that? Yeah, It just doesn't make a
41:19
sense. I hope there's a courageous
41:22
group of congressmen that spew all this stuff out, no matter
41:27
how ugly it is, no matter how much awful stuff there is behind
41:30
it. It's what we need.
41:32
You know, it's just, is there somebody with that level of
41:34
courage and excess? Or or nothing left to lose.
41:38
You know, I mean, I think I said it before, you know, Marjorie
41:42
Taylor Green like calling this for what it is, you know, she's
41:46
not somebody that they. Oh, I know what I was going to
41:48
say about your point about that. I don't want to shortcut what
41:52
you were trying to say, but that essentially the cabal uses
41:57
Trump's kind of the cloud of chaos that surrounds Donald
42:01
Trump is a strategy in this case, not a.
42:04
But the problem with that would be, I mean, honestly, of all the
42:09
things that I can say about Donald Trump, I don't think if I
42:14
were a cabal, he would be the tool I would want to use.
42:20
I mean, he has a hard time staying on script when it's
42:25
like, what's for lunch? That, that, that he would do,
42:30
you know what I mean? Like that he would be
42:33
deliberately evocative. Yeah.
42:35
Like but. That and I think, but I think
42:37
that's where, you know, that whole is everybody still talking
42:42
about Epstein? I mean, that was like so
42:44
uncharacteristically it like like just flies in the face of
42:48
everything he stood for and it doesn't make any sense.
42:52
And then it's like, and then it's like, and The thing is,
42:55
you'd have to have more than life or death over somebody.
42:59
Like for somebody might change their behavior to that degree.
43:04
It's got to be deeper than, hey, we're going to kill you, OK?
43:08
I mean, I'm 80. You know, at some point somebody
43:10
would be like, screw it, you know?
43:13
Right. I I think that's the part that's
43:15
so head scratching to me like what do you got on Donald Trump?
43:19
The entire Democrat political machine through felony
43:24
indictments at the guy one the case is in court and that all
43:30
kind of fell away. Like, like what do you to, to
43:34
your point, what, what are you going to do, Kelly?
43:37
Well, they tried and and they survived, you know?
43:40
Right, like right and and it and yet it doesn't change the
43:45
behavior. It it, it's still sticking to
43:47
the line. You threaten people's children,
43:51
I mean. Now I don't.
43:52
Understand it. OK, so it's either the cabal or
43:57
back to it's nothing. The guy was a Jackass and he
44:02
probably blackmailed a few folks and there's nothing there.
44:05
But isn't that easily provable? That there's nothing there.
44:09
Yeah, take the, take the redactions.
44:12
And what you'll hear people say is, well, the files have all
44:14
been released. They're like black pages with
44:18
redaction marks on them. Take the redactions off, give me
44:21
the names, give me the names. And we'll, we'll, we'll put a
44:26
Commission up and we're going to say, this should be, this should
44:30
be my congressional offer if I were to win the 1st district in
44:34
Iowa, which I won't because I'm not running put up a, we're
44:39
going to give blanket immunity to any person who is.
44:44
We're going to say that Jeffrey Epstein was the prime mover.
44:46
He was the bad guy and he's dead, so we can't send him to
44:49
jail. But the public deserves the
44:51
truth more than they deserve retribution.
44:54
Therefore, right. Therefore, I, Donald Trump, am
44:58
going to issue an executive pardon to anybody who's named in
45:01
the Epstein files for doing anything.
45:03
And if that's me and my kids or my best friend, I don't care.
45:07
I'm going to take the political risk the the people will trust
45:09
me for this. And I think they would.
45:11
I think I would trust Donald Trump if he said that I'm going
45:14
to make a blanket pardon for everybody and we take the names
45:16
out. It's embarrassing.
45:18
Nobody goes to jail. Well, that works if it was
45:22
adultery. It doesn't work if there's
45:24
children. There's no way that would work
45:26
that. And that's where the rub here
45:29
is, you know? Yeah, no, you're right.
45:31
You're right. Yeah, Because people wouldn't.
45:34
Yeah. Yeah.
45:35
No, that's true. I I still, my frame of reference
45:39
still is at the, you know, the the unseemly part of it, the
45:44
adultery part of it. But no, you're right.
45:49
You're right. That really does invalidate
45:51
that. But then how?
45:53
How do people not? If you're not involved, how do
45:57
you countenance not solving that?
46:00
Unless leaders on both sides are Trump went and you name it,
46:06
major entities on both sides hurt a child, Yeah, then it's
46:13
got there to have to be enough on both sides even.
46:17
At that. Yeah, but still, somebody's
46:19
going to some. Not everybody's involved.
46:22
Right. And that's what I mean.
46:24
So I'm picking on I'm picking on our our buddy JD, but I'm going
46:28
to assume that he was not a part of the a part of the game at at
46:32
some point. Do you not say, you know what,
46:34
I'm going to light the match. It's going to burn a lot of
46:36
people on both sides, but I'm going to come out looking OK.
46:40
Like disgusting. Somebody, somebody has to have a
46:43
moral compass high enough to pull the pull the right.
46:47
Howard Ludnik walked out. I Yeah, that's the part that I
46:51
just, I don't know. I mean, this probably sounds
46:53
like a broken record. I don't mean to go on and on.
46:55
But like so much in life, you can trace the incentives, right?
47:00
And you might agree. You might think it's a good
47:02
idea, a bad idea, but you can like, it's it's rational, even
47:07
if stuff that's wrong might be rational.
47:09
This is irrational to me. Well, and, and I, like I said
47:13
after the fact, it's like, well, this isn't resolved.
47:17
We'll talk more about politics weekly as this goes and we'll
47:21
argue about stuff. But to me, this is a core issue
47:23
that I don't think we ever give up.
47:26
I mean, I think this is something we come back to every
47:28
month that or two of like, why the hell isn't this solved?
47:32
Because this is just fundamental to everything, no matter.
47:35
What? How can it not be like, right?
47:37
Like if the premises of the question are wrong, right?
47:41
Like if there's nothing there. OK, well, what would nothing
47:45
look like? We know he was a real guy.
47:47
We know that real women, real, real girls were hurt.
47:52
Right? Does any?
47:52
I don't think anybody doubts. We know he had a lot of coin
47:57
like that one person saying like there's rich people and then
48:00
there's rich people that own islands.
48:02
Like there's a lot of money. And everybody that's ever talked
48:05
to this guy didn't think he knew Jack Squad about investing.
48:09
So he didn't make his money as a hedge fund.
48:12
He made his money getting paid off.
48:14
Right. And why doesn't the cabal or the
48:18
leader, whoever it is, I mean, if you want to like, give me a
48:24
villain, right? Epstein's dead.
48:27
But let's, OK, let's say Les Wexner.
48:30
And I don't know if there's ever been a credible allegation that
48:32
he actually did anything wrong. But he gave all this money to
48:34
Epstein. And Epstein seems to have a
48:36
pattern of blackmailing people. So let's just let's throw a
48:40
whole less under the bus and say that's what the whole story was.
48:44
They had this bad thing. He did this bad stuff.
48:47
But it just it goes too deep that they can't seem to bring
48:51
themselves. I, I Kyle, I'm with you.
48:55
This is 1 I can't get past because I can't see it right.
49:00
And there's too many unopened unresolved questions to I don't
49:06
care what side you're on. I feel like this is 1 and we
49:10
can't talk about every week, but it's one we need to keep on the
49:13
back burner to talk about because it's just unacceptable.
49:18
100% And if you're innocent, there's a straight line way out
49:22
of this, right? If if you're, if you're a member
49:25
of Congress and, and you're not tainted by this, there's a real
49:30
straight exit, right? Hey, thanks for joining us on
49:37
this episode of Bourbon and Rum Podcast.
49:39
We hope you enjoyed it. Remember to subscribe on your
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And until next time, cheers.