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Serial Killer Documentary - Joseph Franklin - Prison Interview · The Evolution of Evil - True Crime Stories

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: You are about to enter the criminal mindscape of Joseph
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Paul Franklin.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you were actually hunting human beings?
• 0:09
  Speaker 3: Well, I was.
• 0:11
  Speaker 4: You wouldn't call that hunting them? Hunting them and shooting them.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: On a mission to start a race war in America,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Franklin ruthlessly murders 20 people.
• 0:21
  Speaker 5: We're asking him to open up and talk about who
• 0:24
  Speaker 5: he is, his crimes, why he did what he did.
• 0:30
  Speaker 6: One thing we can tell you at this time that
• 0:31
  Speaker 6: we're positive of is that there have been two people
• 0:33
  Speaker 6: shot here at this location.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Larry Flint, the publisher of Hustler magazine. He and his
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: lawyer were walking down the sidewalk when somebody on the
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: street opened fire.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: His methods vary, making him nearly impossible to catch.
• 0:48
  Speaker 6: We know that they were shot by a sniper.
• 0:50
  Speaker 7: The rifle is a high-powered rifle with a scope on it.
• 0:54
  Speaker 5: Remember the two teenage boys in Cincinnati that you shot?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: You could see that they were young.
• 1:00
  Speaker 7: The well-known Klan's leader said, when I go out to
• 1:02
  Speaker 7: kill rattlesnakes, I don't make any difference between little rattlesnakes
• 1:06
  Speaker 7: and big rattlesnakes, because I know the little ones will
• 1:09
  Speaker 7: grow up and bite me when they get big. So
• 1:12
  Speaker 7: I looked at blacks the same way.
• 1:14
  Speaker 5: I totally understand that he will be in control of
• 1:17
  Speaker 5: this interview, and that is the way.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I'm planning it.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Now, a veteran FBI profiler enters death row and steps
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: into the criminal mindscape.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: These interviews for me are fascinating.
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: They are absolutely the most intriguing experience that I've.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Had in the FBI.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Mary Ellen O'Toole spent her career at the FBI, including
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: 15 years in the Bureau's famed profiling unit.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: I work specifically on profiling serial murder cases and assisting
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: law enforcement all over the world in how to understand
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: these offenders and how to make sense out of their crimes.
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: I think Joseph Paul Franklin will be very interesting to
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: talk to because if you scrape away the racism, he
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: is still a cold-blooded, predatory individual who was driving around
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: the country shooting and killing people. And so to say
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: that that's the reason that he killed is very difficult
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: for me to accept. Interviews like this are extremely helpful.
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: Will they identify all the answers?
• 2:39
  Speaker 8: No.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: But they will get insights.
• 2:42
  Speaker 5: Into why certain behavior at the crime scene, why not
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: certain behavior. Who are we looking for? What were they
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: like 20 years ago? What was their family like? How
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: were they deciding on their victims? Why did they kill
• 2:54
  Speaker 5: some victims and some they didn't? He doesn't have to
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: talk to me.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: He does not have to open up to me. He
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: can walk out of that interview any time.
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: By way of background, I'm a retired FBI agent after
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: about 28 years as an agent. Oh, yeah?
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: But you learned a lot during that 28 years.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, a lot.
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: And actually, the last 15 years I've spent back in
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: the FBI's profiling unit.
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: And we're located at the FBI Academy.
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: And most recently, my area of expertise was in the
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: serial killer unit.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: Well, I don't claim to be a serial killer, though.
• 3:31
  Speaker 7: Okay, and I want to talk to you about that.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: I don't put myself in that category.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Okay. Can you tell me what your idea of a
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: serial killer is?
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: Well, I've read in the news, the definition in the newspaper,
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: you know. Sure. And it says that.
• 3:47
  Speaker 7: Somebody who commits various killings with cooling off periods in between.
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: Tell me why you don't fit into that definition of
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: a serial killer.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Let's say Ted Bundy, who was out when you were out.
• 4:00
  Speaker 7: I don't feel like I have anything in common with
• 4:02
  Speaker 7: the dude, you know.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: I'm just a completely different type of person, you know.
• 4:07
  Speaker 7: A lot of these other criminals, you know, these serial killers,
• 4:09
  Speaker 7: they were just into one thing, strangling women and stuff
• 4:13
  Speaker 7: like that. See, they've been trying to associate me with
• 4:17
  Speaker 7: the scumbags like Ted Bundy who were killing innocent women,
• 4:20
  Speaker 7: you know, and take everything political away from my case.
• 4:24
  Speaker 7: Over and over again, you've been hearing on the newscast,
• 4:26
  Speaker 7: serial killer of this, serial killer of that, to try
• 4:29
  Speaker 7: to incite hatred against people like me, you know.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: I wasn't out for my own pleasure. I was motivated
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: by love of the white race.
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: Joseph is a serial killer, and he's different from other
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: serial killers, just like they're different from him.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: There's no one profile of a serial killer. So you
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: have cases where you were a sniper, and then you
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: have events where you were not a sniper. So you
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: really have both.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: In 1977, Joseph Paul Franklin, age 27, is a versatile criminal,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: a successful shoplifter and bank robber, who is ready for murder.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: He claims to have found his very first victims somewhat
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: spontaneously in.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: Madison, Wisconsin.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: He was in the parking lot of a shopping center.
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: He had his. 357 Magnum tucked alongside of him.
• 5:23
  Speaker 7: His first case in Madison, Wisconsin was kind of an
• 5:26
  Speaker 7: unplanned thing.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: What put you in that parking lot that day of
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: the shooting?
• 5:31
  Speaker 7: Well, I was driving around and I saw a couple
• 5:34
  Speaker 7: of Young girls standing at a bus stop.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: I pulled over and picked them up. I would often
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: do that.
• 5:41
  Speaker 7: I would just pull over and see a couple broads
• 5:44
  Speaker 7: waiting at a bus stop and offer them a ride.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: They said, are they going to this mall? So I
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: gave them a ride to that mall.
• 5:49
  Speaker 7: And a pretty tall black dude, about 6'2, was sitting
• 5:52
  Speaker 7: in the car with a white girl. And I beeped
• 5:55
  Speaker 7: at him because he was driving too slow. He then
• 5:58
  Speaker 7: began traveling about five miles an hour just to aggravate me,
• 6:01
  Speaker 7: you know.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: So I sat on the horn then, you know. Tee,
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: real loud. So he stopped his car in front of me,
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: got out of the car and began walking toward me.
• 6:11
  Speaker 7: He had this real scowl on his face at first,
• 6:13
  Speaker 7: you know, walking toward me. So without even thinking, I
• 6:16
  Speaker 7: just reached down there with my right hand and whipped
• 6:18
  Speaker 7: out my. 357 Magnum with a six-inch barrel. And then
• 6:22
  Speaker 7: when he saw the gun, the scowl turned into a surprise,
• 6:25
  Speaker 7: you know.
• 6:26
  Speaker 8: And then.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: Then he just closed his eye like that and just
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: keeled over.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: That was a very risky thing for you to do.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: There you were in a shopping center, and it was.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: Daylight, and there was a whole bunch of people.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Why did you shoot the woman in the car?
• 6:43
  Speaker 7: I figured, well, I'm against interracial couples. She was one
• 6:46
  Speaker 7: half of an interracial couple, you know. I thought, well,
• 6:48
  Speaker 7: I might as well get both of them, because I'm
• 6:49
  Speaker 7: going to probably get caught for this.
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: So I shot her and sped out of the parking lot. Man,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: I was burning rubber, man. You know, trying to get
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: out of there.
• 6:58
  Speaker 7: And luckily, there was a whole bunch of lights all
• 7:01
  Speaker 7: in front of this mall, you know. And every single
• 7:04
  Speaker 7: one of them turned green for me. I got on
• 7:05
  Speaker 7: the interstate and took off and got out of Madison, Wisconsin.
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: It's pretty amazing that that's the first time that you
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: committed murder. That's a pretty cold-blooded thing to do to
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: a complete stranger. Joseph identifies a first murder. which is
• 7:23
  Speaker 5: a double murder at point-blank range. Joseph has very good
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: recall of that incident. Broad daylight in a parking lot
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: of a shopping center. My question is, is that in
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: fact the first incident, or is that the first one
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: that he.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Wants to talk about? What were you feeling at the
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: time you pulled that trigger?
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: Fear, you know.
• 7:46
  Speaker 7: I feared if I get into a fight with that guy,
• 7:48
  Speaker 7: I'll be arrested for all this bank money I got
• 7:51
  Speaker 7: in the trunk.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: I just... at the bank in Columbus a few days earlier,
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: He had a very difficult time describing his own internal feelings.
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: He could say what he was thinking, but he could
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: not articulate or describe how he was feeling.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 8:07
  Speaker 7: I guess it's kind of like, you know, you see
• 8:11
  Speaker 7: this stuff going on on TV a lot, you know,
• 8:14
  Speaker 7: and it seems to desensitize you.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: Maybe that was it.
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: I did not do an official assessment of Joseph as
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: to whether or not he was a psychopath. But it's
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: my opinion that he does show traits of psychopathy. This
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: underlying personality disorder known as psychopathy does seem to be
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: present in most serial killers. It's difficult for people who
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: do have traits of psychopathy to identify feelings because they
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: don't feel the same way that regular people feel.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Coming up.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you were actually hunting human beings?
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: Well, I was.
• 8:56
  Speaker 7: You know, the way people would sit down there and
• 8:59
  Speaker 7: wait for a wild game, I guess.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Before launching his career as a serial killer, Joseph Paul
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Franklin was a deeply troubled young man, searching for identity
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and belonging, first among evangelical Christians, then with right-wing extremists.
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: During the early 70s, you kind of see a metamorphosis
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: with Franklin. He begins to associate with the Nazi party.
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: He begins to associate with the Ku Klux Klan. And
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: then you see a little bit of the trial and
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: errors of his criminal behavior. You became, for a brief time,
• 9:37
  Speaker 5: a member of the American Nazi party and even the
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: Ku Klux Klan.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: I was involved with the party. That was in 1973.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: You weren't a member very long. Just a year for
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: that one, yeah. I didn't stick with any of them.
• 9:50
  Speaker 7: A lot of them were just filled with FBI informants
• 9:53
  Speaker 7: and people just always trying to get information from you.
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: But how did these groups think about you? I mean,
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: you weren't there for a very long time. Were they
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: too conservative for you?
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: They were mostly weren't doing anything, you know. Most of
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: them were into talking.
• 10:07
  Speaker 7: That's what the average Klansman and average Nazi, you know,
• 10:10
  Speaker 7: they're all talk.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: And that's it.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: And what were you into?
• 10:14
  Speaker 7: I was into action, you know, doing things. You know,
• 10:17
  Speaker 7: I wanted to get, you know, actually do something. I
• 10:20
  Speaker 7: wasn't sure exactly specifically what.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: I wanted to do, you know.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: So you became kind of a loner.
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. You got to be because you can't trust anybody.
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: I thought when he gave that explanation, he was more
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: or less legitimizing why he left those organizations. Even though
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: he touched on it, I think part of the reason
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: he left was because they weren't extreme enough for him.
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: Then you begin to see him focus a little more
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: and more on what he ends up being for the
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: rest of his time before he's arrested, which is a sniper.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: St.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Louis, 1977. Two months after Franklin's first murder in Wisconsin,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: a group of people chat in the parking lot of
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a synagogue. They are about to become the targets of
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Joseph Paul Franklin's first sniper shooting.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: There was a total of five shots.
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: One shot struck a man in the chest, which killed him.
• 11:26
  Speaker 9: Police that are arriving on the scene didn't know where
• 11:29
  Speaker 9: it was coming from.
• 11:35
  Speaker 6: The only thing we can tell you at this time
• 11:36
  Speaker 6: that we're positive of is that we have the weapon,
• 11:39
  Speaker 6: the rest post, and we have five spent cartridges, which
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: is right up there at that telephone pole. It appears
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: to be someone planned to come here and do just this.
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: This was not an impulsive act whatsoever. This was an
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: act that required planning, lots of patience. He chose this location...
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: It had all the features that he was looking for
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: or that he needed to set up his rifle, to
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: give him an escape route, and to be able to
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: sit there for two hours laying in wait for his
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: perfect victim. The victim is almost the last thing he
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: decides to do before he commits the homicide.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: For his first sniper killing, Franklin boldly leaves the murder
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: weapon behind. having removed both his fingerprints and the serial
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: number from the rifle.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: Though St.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Louis police eventually traced the gun back to Texas, it
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: would never lead them to Franklin.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: Being a sniper is a very unusual type of serial killer.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: You choose the place that you're going to shoot. You're
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: kind of off.
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: So it minimizes any contact whatsoever with the people you're
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: going to shoot. And I'm wondering, what is it like
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: when you're laying there getting ready to have a person.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Walk in front of your sights?
• 13:01
  Speaker 7: The way people will sit down there and wait for
• 13:03
  Speaker 7: a wild game, I guess. I guess it's the same,
• 13:06
  Speaker 7: you know, hunters who find a tree stand or something.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: It's a similar situation, I guess. Just sit there and
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: wait until the target appears and shoot. I would just
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: stake out an area.
• 13:14
  Speaker 7: Find a good place to hide, you know, bushes or
• 13:17
  Speaker 7: just a vacant.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Yard as long as it was dark, you know. And
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: I knew that I could see them, but they couldn't
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: see me.
• 13:23
  Speaker 7: You go over everything, every little step you'll take, so
• 13:26
  Speaker 7: that when you do get all your adrenaline going, you
• 13:29
  Speaker 7: can just follow the plan that you already had in mind.
• 13:31
  Speaker 7: You don't have to worry about getting so scared that you.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: Can't even move, you know.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you were actually hunting human beings?
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Well, I was. You wouldn't call that hunting them?
• 13:43
  Speaker 10: I wouldn't.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: Hunting them and shooting them. Well you know a lot
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: of people in the military do the same thing all
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: the time. Kill people they don't even know.
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: Some of the heroes of this country were the same way.
• 13:54
  Speaker 7: But they killed the enemy soldiers so they're not looked down,
• 13:57
  Speaker 7: despised by the society whereas.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: People like me are.
• 14:01
  Speaker 7: Some people are just born homicidal is what I'm saying.
• 14:03
  Speaker 7: And believe it or not you'll find a lot of
• 14:05
  Speaker 7: people in the Bible who fit into that category who
• 14:07
  Speaker 7: are prophets of God.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: Look at all the Philistines Samson killed.
• 14:11
  Speaker 5: He's implying, how can you judge me for doing the
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: same thing that people in the Bible have done and
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: heroes in Vietnam have done and soldiers in Iraq have
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: had to do?
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: So he's saying, I had to do this.
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: This was a good thing. I mean, it may sound bad,
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: but it's a good thing and I had to do it.
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: So don't judge me on the basis of my actions
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: because I'm not that different from people in the Bible.
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: I'm not that different from heroes in Vietnam and in
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: the Iraq war.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Blacks all over the country would be afraid to walk
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: down the street. I would be terrorizing the entire United States.
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: Just one man.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: What a sense of power.
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: After his St. Louis sniper killing, Joseph Paul Franklin hits
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: the interstates looking for new opportunities to carry out his
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: racist wrath. From 1977 to 1979, he commits similar shootings
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: in Virginia, Tennessee, and Oklahoma.
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: You begin to see this really what I would call
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: very mission-oriented serial killer who's killing a lot. He's driving
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: around a lot. He seems to have perfected the method
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: of his killing.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: In addition to blacks and Jews, Franklin sets his sights
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: on an infamous magazine publisher who dared to print pictures
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: of an interracial couple.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Larry Flint, the publisher of Hustler magazine. He and his
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: lawyer were walking down the sidewalk when somebody on the
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: street opened fire, shooting Flint in the stomach and his
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: lawyer in the side and then escaped.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: Both are in critical condition.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: To Franklin's frustration, neither the police nor the media recognized
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: that one person is behind this shooting, the one in St.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Louis and those in other cities.
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: These would have been very difficult crimes to link. There's
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: such a limited amount of evidence at those crime scenes.
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: There's no interaction with the victims, so the detective has very,
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: very little to go on.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: By 1980, Franklin finds a strategy he thinks will demand
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: law enforcement's full attention.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So what did you decide to do in 1980?
• 16:27
  Speaker 7: Well, just to keep doing a whole lot more of them.
• 16:30
  Speaker 7: so they could not ignore it. All the law enforcement
• 16:32
  Speaker 7: officers knew all about it, but they wouldn't tell the
• 16:34
  Speaker 7: media that it was a national thing. I guess they
• 16:36
  Speaker 7: figured until we catch the guy, we're not going to
• 16:39
  Speaker 7: give him any kind of national publicity.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: That had to be frustrating.
• 16:42
  Speaker 7: Yeah, it was kind of frustrating, but that just made
• 16:44
  Speaker 7: me want to do even more. That's why I wanted
• 16:46
  Speaker 7: to shoot Jesse Jackson the most. That's the one I
• 16:50
  Speaker 7: stalked up in Chicago, went to Operation Push headquarters up there. Evidently,
• 16:55
  Speaker 7: I might have been a little too obvious because I
• 16:56
  Speaker 7: was driving down that road one day, And I looked
• 16:59
  Speaker 7: and saw a car behind me. And I thought, it
• 17:02
  Speaker 7: looks like that dude is following me in that car,
• 17:05
  Speaker 7: an unmarked police car. I'm going to take the next right,
• 17:09
  Speaker 7: and if he takes the right too, I know he's
• 17:12
  Speaker 7: following me. So I took the next right, and sure enough,
• 17:15
  Speaker 7: he took a right too and kept on going.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: I thought, if somebody's tailing me here, I better get
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: out of town, you know?
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: The paranoia really, in a way, is very justified because
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: he knows that he has shot and killed people all
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: over the United States. It's that personality trait of his
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: that actually led to his identity and ultimately to his arrest.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: After Franklin's plan to shoot Jesse Jackson fails, he stumbles
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: upon another high-profile target, civil rights leader Vernon Jordan.
• 17:45
  Speaker 7: So I left Chicago at that time, headed toward Indiana,
• 17:49
  Speaker 7: and I stopped in Fort Wayne that night And it
• 17:52
  Speaker 7: just happened here on the news that Vernon Jordan was
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: speaking at the Marriott Motel.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: At such and such time, I.
• 17:58
  Speaker 7: Thought, well, if he's speaking at the motel, he's probably
• 18:00
  Speaker 7: staying at the motel.
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: So I called the motel up from my motel room.
• 18:04
  Speaker 7: I said, could you tell me what room number Vernon
• 18:08
  Speaker 7: Jordan is in?
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: She said, sir, that's against policy. I can't do that.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: We're not supposed to do that. Somehow I was able
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: to convince her to give me the room number. So
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: that's all it took.
• 18:17
  Speaker 7: I was able to set up an ambush outside by
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: the interstate, you know, That's how that went down.
• 18:25
  Speaker 10: Vernon Jordan is said to be in very serious but
• 18:27
  Speaker 10: at least stable condition at a Fort Wayne, Indiana hospital
• 18:30
  Speaker 10: this morning, while local and federal officials are trying to
• 18:33
  Speaker 10: find out who shot him and why.
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: He talks about going after high-profile targets like Mr. Jordan
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: and Larry Flint and actually stalking them, getting up close
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: to where they were staying and where they were at
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: the time.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Which really is very.
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: Stupid, because when you go after people who are famous,
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: you're going to unleash law enforcement from.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: All over the country.
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: Was there something that triggered it that happened to you,
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: or did you decide that I need to kill somebody?
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: I was actually trying to get a race war started.
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: That was my goal, commit enough racial incidents all over
• 19:11
  Speaker 7: the country to get the blacks all stirred up, you know,
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: and they would start killing whites, and then the whites
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: would then get angry, and retaliate for that, and he
• 19:19
  Speaker 7: would go back and forth until a full-scale race war
• 19:21
  Speaker 7: was going on.
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: Joseph wanted blacks and Jews to fear that anywhere they went,
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: they could be gunned down. That is such a grandiose scheme,
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: and it's unrealistic, and having unrealistic goals is consistent with
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: people who.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Manifest traits of psychopathy.
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: In fact, that's one of the traits of that disorder
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: is that they have unrealistic goals. That never would have happened,
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: and yet, He believes that he was capable... of being
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: able to accomplish that.
• 19:52
  Speaker 7: I guess if I would have been able to do
• 19:53
  Speaker 7: it long enough, they would have had to give me
• 19:56
  Speaker 7: national publicity. Blacks all over the country, interracial couples would
• 19:59
  Speaker 7: be afraid to walk down the street. I would be
• 20:02
  Speaker 7: terrorizing the entire United States.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: Just one man.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: What a sense of power.
• 20:07
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: They didn't want to freak.
• 20:09
  Speaker 7: Out the blacks all over the country. That's why they
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: wouldn't give me all that new national publicity.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Wow, that must have made you feel pretty important.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: No, I wasn't really important.
• 20:17
  Speaker 7: You know, it was just the facts, the acts I
• 20:19
  Speaker 7: was trying to do. My goal was to get the
• 20:21
  Speaker 7: race war started, you know.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: But you weren't successful.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: No, I wasn't successful in that.
• 20:26
  Speaker 7: I got caught after the Salt Lake City shootings three years.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: Later, you know.
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: I think underpinning a lot of his criminal behavior was
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: this need for attention, this need to get credit for
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: these crimes. It's what we call need-driven behavior. And his
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: need-driven behavior was law enforcement recognizing that one person, and
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: one person alone, was capable of creating chaos and fear
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: in the United States.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Coming up.
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: Remember the two teenage boys in Cincinnati that you shot?
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: You could see that they were young.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to ratchet up the violence.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: In 1977, serial sniper Joseph Paul Franklin begins wandering the
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: country shooting people he calls enemies of the white race.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: His victims are chosen at random, except for two, civil
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: rights leader Vernon Jordan and Hustler magazine publisher Larry Flint,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: who are targeted for.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: Their high-profile work.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: By 1980, Franklin, feeling that his crimes are not getting
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the attention they deserve, escalates his violence.
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: A serial sniper is a tough, tough offender to understand.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: He decides who will be in his sights.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: He realizes that that person's life rests in his hands.
• 21:55
  Speaker 5: So the ultimate thrill and sense of power and control
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: over another human being has to be considered as part
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: of the motivation for being a serial sniper.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: It appears that Franklin also decides to expand his target
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: list to include children. On June 8th, 1980, the sniper
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: unleashes his pain on Cincinnati, Ohio.
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: You have two teenage boys who were shot and killed
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: in Cincinnati. No one sees anything, no one identifies anybody
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: that was responsible.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: The victims, Dante Evans Brown and Darrell Lane, cousins and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: best friends. were 13 and 14 years old.
• 22:41
  Speaker 8: Give our brother Dante peaceful rest in this grave.
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit come on
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: you and remain with you forever. Amen. Up until that point,
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: we had not seen really young victims, 13 and 14
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: years of age, who now were targeted by this serial sniper.
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: And it really suggests that Joseph was changing his MO,
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: he was increasing the number of crimes, and he was
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: even changing his victimology to include these two very sympathetic victims.
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: If we could go back to the choice of, you
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: remember the two teenage boys in Cincinnati?
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: The what?
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: The two teenage boys in Cincinnati that you shot. They
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: were 13 and 14, and this was during that period
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: of time that you described that you were going to
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: do things differently.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to ratchet up the violence.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Is that why you picked two young teenage boys? Because
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: you had a scope on your.
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: Weapon at that time, and you would have been able
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: to see that they were young.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: There was only one time during the interview.
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: When his body language became defensive, and that was when
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: we started to talk about the homicide in Cincinnati involving
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: two young African-American.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Boys ages 13 and 14.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: I couldn't really tell exactly how old they were.
• 24:16
  Speaker 7: I figured they were young, but maybe just 18 or
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: 19 years old, you know, sitting in there in the dark,
• 24:23
  Speaker 7: you know, and seeing just their silhouettes, you know, their shadows,
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: you know, it's kind of hard to tell how old
• 24:27
  Speaker 7: somebody was.
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: I had no idea they were that young.
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: I knew from reviewing the case and from talking to
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: other people that not only could he have seen through
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: the scope, but he wasn't all that far away from
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: those two young victims. When you know only shoot young children,
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: the repercussions for you as the offender can be far greater,
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: especially when you are incarcerated in prison. And people think
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: of you differently when you shoot and kill children.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: It didn't really matter to me.
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: I had no conscience as far as the blacks go.
• 25:00
  Speaker 7: When you're a member of the Klan and you spend
• 25:03
  Speaker 7: years around white supremacists, you begin thinking of blacks as non-human.
• 25:07
  Speaker 7: Connie Lynch, who was a well-known Klan's leader, said, when
• 25:10
  Speaker 7: I go out to kill rattlesnakes, I don't make any
• 25:13
  Speaker 7: difference between little rattlesnakes and big rattlesnakes because I know
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: the little ones will grow up and bite me when
• 25:18
  Speaker 7: they get big. So I looked at blacks the same way.
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: So it appeared to me that he was speaking out
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: of both sides of his mouth. He was talking about
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: not knowing that they were younger victims. And yet, if
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: he shot two young boys, he knew that he would
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: get much more attention from the media and much more
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: attention from law enforcement.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Coming up.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: I was a little kid that was beat up and starved.
• 25:50
  Speaker 7: You get so traumatized, you're just trying to pay back
• 25:53
  Speaker 7: other people all the pain that you suffered.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: In the summer of 1980, an unusual type of serial killer,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: a racist sniper, roams the U.S.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Looking for targets.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: In states from Virginia to Oklahoma, he's used high-powered rifles, shotguns,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: and a.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: 357 Magnum to kill.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: In Salt Lake City, detectives are facing a double homicide
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: that has all the trademarks of this serial killer.
• 26:27
  Speaker 9: We had reports of several shots fired. When we arrived here,
• 26:32
  Speaker 9: we had two victims down. We do have confirmed on
• 26:36
  Speaker 9: two of the victims that they have expired.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Two young men, 18 and 19, both black and well
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: regarded in the community, are dead. The two white girls
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: they were jogging with escape.
• 26:53
  Speaker 7: I responded that night.
• 26:54
  Speaker 8: It looked like the sniper had laid in wait inside
• 26:57
  Speaker 8: this field and then shot these four people as they
• 27:00
  Speaker 8: were coming across the lighted intersection.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: Both the boys were.
• 27:05
  Speaker 8: Shot even after they had quit moving. They weren't wounds
• 27:08
  Speaker 8: to the legs or the extremities. These were all, in
• 27:12
  Speaker 8: shooter's talk, these were all like kill shots.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I'd like to talk to you about the Salt Lake
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: City shooting.
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: That was August 1980.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Why did you travel to Salt Lake?
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Well, I'd been there before already, back in 1975. Okay.
• 27:26
  Speaker 7: And had noticed a lot of miscegenation.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 27:32
  Speaker 7: Mixing of the races, especially white with non-whites. It would
• 27:37
  Speaker 7: be a good place to target. I saw two interracial
• 27:40
  Speaker 7: couples jogging toward the park, two black dudes and two
• 27:43
  Speaker 7: white chicks, you know?
• 27:45
  Speaker 8: So.
• 27:46
  Speaker 7: I thought, well, I'll just keep waiting here until they
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: come back. And so there was a mound of dirt there,
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: so I was, you know, concealed with tall grass and everything,
• 27:55
  Speaker 7: you know.
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: Salt Lake City had been used to dealing with a
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: number of very violent crimes, so there was tremendous experience
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: in the department, but this was a very different kind
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: of offender.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Although Franklin has killed his intended targets, the crime has stopped.
• 28:15
  Speaker 8: We did find some tire tread marks in the field
• 28:18
  Speaker 8: where the shell casings were found. They were a prototype tire,
• 28:22
  Speaker 8: and they were only sold in a very limited amount
• 28:25
  Speaker 8: of states, but every one of those states were east
• 28:27
  Speaker 8: of the Mississippi River. They had to be from somewhere
• 28:31
  Speaker 8: back east.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: It's not long before witnesses come forward and describe seeing
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: a dark-colored Camaro parked in the field near the sniper's position.
• 28:43
  Speaker 8: We found a man who was walking by about a
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: week later, and he actually saw the Camaro, and he
• 28:47
  Speaker 8: gave us a very good description of the car.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Soon, a local prostitute confirms that she's done business with
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: a man who drove a similar car.
• 28:57
  Speaker 8: He didn't want to trick in the car, so he says,
• 29:00
  Speaker 8: we'll go to my motel room. She thought he was
• 29:02
  Speaker 8: from the south because he had a southern accent, but
• 29:05
  Speaker 8: she couldn't remember where in the south. What made it
• 29:08
  Speaker 8: interesting to me is she mentioned that she saw some
• 29:10
  Speaker 8: handguns and rifles in his room. Then he told her
• 29:14
  Speaker 8: that he was a hitman for the Ku Klux Klan.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: The witness is able to help police put together a
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: composite of the suspect.
• 29:22
  Speaker 8: When we knew that there had been other killings back east,
• 29:26
  Speaker 8: we now knew that this guy was from that area.
• 29:29
  Speaker 8: I think from the composites alone, we're pretty much convinced
• 29:33
  Speaker 8: that we were on the right road.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: The registration card from the motel also lists the Camaro's
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: license plate number. and the name of its driver. While
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the information is phony, Salt Lake City police soon discover
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: a trail of similar aliases in motels across the region.
• 29:51
  Speaker 8: So from the 9th of August to August 20th, we
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: could place him in, I think, seven or eight different motels.
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: We never found him after August 20th, which was the
• 30:03
  Speaker 8: night of our shooting. It's like he just disappeared off
• 30:06
  Speaker 8: the face of the earth.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: The Salt Lake City police catch a break when one
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: astute motel owner writes down the Camaro's real license plate number.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: A month later, this information pays off.
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: I think 11 o'clock one night, I got a call saying,
• 30:28
  Speaker 8: head to the airport, they found this guy and were
• 30:31
  Speaker 8: flying you to, I think the little town was called Erlanger, Kentucky,
• 30:36
  Speaker 8: and they'd arrested him at a motel on our warrant.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: In an odd turn of events, police in Boone County, Kentucky,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: while arresting a burglar at a local motel, encounter an
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: angry and paranoid man in the room next door.
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: They check his identification, they check his vehicle, and they
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: realize that his vehicle parked in the parking lot is
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: a vehicle that is wanted by the Salt Lake City
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: Police Department in a double homicide.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Finding two high-powered rifles and handguns in the man's room,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: police take him in for questioning.
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: So law enforcement in Kentucky didn't realize when they brought
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: him into the interview room really who they had. They
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: didn't know how many homicides that he had committed and
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: how committed he was to not being apprehended.
• 31:25
  Speaker 8: And it wasn't until they got him into the station
• 31:27
  Speaker 8: and then they started talking about Salt Lake City and shootings,
• 31:30
  Speaker 8: I think then that's where he got worried and he
• 31:32
  Speaker 8: manufactured his escape and he took off.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: During a break in the interview, Franklin escapes out an
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: open window and disappears. One of America's deadliest serial killers
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: is back on the street. But now, police have his
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: real name. On September 25th, 1980, Joseph Paul Franklin, age 30,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: is now the object of a nationwide manhunt. One month later,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: the FBI, aware that Franklin regularly sells his blood, catches
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: him at a blood bank near Tampa, Florida. Franklin proclaims
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: his innocence while proudly admitting his racist beliefs.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Do you have white racist views?
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: Oh, definitely, yeah.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Well, how do you feel about blacks?
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: I'm against racism and communism.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: His denials don't last. In the coming years, Franklin confesses
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: to numerous murders. For the sniper killing at the St.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Louis synagogue, Franklin is sentenced to death.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: Mr.
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: Franklin has said that his motivation was to eliminate what
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: he referred to as ugly people from the community. That
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: is an explanation that he thinks would give him more credibility.
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: But as far as what caused him to become a
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: serial killer, I think that was an excuse. So how
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: did you, Joseph, evolve to the point where you could
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: do something that seems so cold-blooded?
• 33:04
  Speaker 7: You get so traumatized that you're just trying to pay
• 33:09
  Speaker 7: back other people all the pain that you suffered. That's
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: what happened to me. From the time I was a
• 33:14
  Speaker 7: little kid and was yelled at all day long and
• 33:17
  Speaker 7: beat up and starved, it had an effect on me
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: when I got older, you know. Just about everybody in
• 33:22
  Speaker 7: the family had an alcohol problem, you know. They all
• 33:25
  Speaker 7: drank like crazy, including my dad was an alcoholic. After
• 33:30
  Speaker 7: spending all his paycheck, my mother would start fussing at him.
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: They would be fighting, cussing, and screaming at each other,
• 33:35
  Speaker 7: and he would be beating her, and, you know, that's
• 33:38
  Speaker 7: the way it went. I remember the landlord would come
• 33:40
  Speaker 7: and bang on the side of the trailer, and it
• 33:41
  Speaker 7: would just terrorize us, you know. He would hit the
• 33:43
  Speaker 7: trailer real bad and start yelling at my mother to
• 33:45
  Speaker 7: pay the rent, you know. And she had no money
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: because my father would take all the money and spend
• 33:51
  Speaker 7: it for alcohol.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Eventually, they split up.
• 33:53
  Speaker 7: In 1965, they were divorced, and it was, you know,
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: that left us on welfare, you know. And so she
• 34:00
  Speaker 7: began abusing us even worse after he left, you know.
• 34:02
  Speaker 7: I was the only child in the family who was
• 34:07
  Speaker 7: always bringing animals home. One afternoon, there was a little
• 34:10
  Speaker 7: terrier dog, you know, from the neighborhood. We were all
• 34:13
  Speaker 7: out in the yard, all of us kids, petting this
• 34:15
  Speaker 7: little terrier. It was a cute little dog, too, you know,
• 34:17
  Speaker 7: with a little tail that stuck straight up, you know.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: And just as friendly as can be, you know.
• 34:23
  Speaker 7: Mama had been sitting in her lawn chair watching us
• 34:26
  Speaker 7: and went into the house, set a pot of water
• 34:30
  Speaker 7: on the stove and began boiling it. She got the
• 34:33
  Speaker 7: water up to a full boil, you know, and poured
• 34:35
  Speaker 7: it right on the little dog's back, you know, and
• 34:37
  Speaker 7: he went, you know, screaming and running away real fast,
• 34:41
  Speaker 7: you know.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: She had a lot of cruel behavior.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, she was a sadist.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: How old were you?
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: About 10 or 11.
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: Joseph talked about a childhood that was chilling. The question is,
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: despite the harshness and the severity of the abuse, does
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: that act as a cause and effect for him later
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: to go on and become a serial killer? We have
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: no research at this point to say that there is
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: a cause and effect just with childhood abuse because we
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: know that there are unfortunately many people who are raised
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: in very abusive situations and they don't go on to
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: become serial killers. So I think we have to incorporate
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: that environment that he described But I think it would
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: be wrong to say that he was a serial killer
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: strictly and solely because.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: He was raised in an abusive environment. Do you think
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: you were born to kill?
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess you could say that. I was under
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: the influence of the devil.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: What do you think is going to happen to you
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: when you die?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Joseph Paul Franklin has been on Missouri's death row for
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: more than a decade. Extreme hatred and what appears to
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: be an utter lack of conscience drove him to kill
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: some 20 people and injure many others.
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: How do I feel about someone like Joseph? Do I
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: pity him?
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: What are my feelings towards him?
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: I feel that it's important that we understand how he
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: developed to be able to go back and say, was
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: it possible early on to prevent this? Was it possible
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: to do something that would have changed the course of history?
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Your first thoughts of killing somebody, how old do you
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: think you were?
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: About 17 years old, I think.
• 36:38
  Speaker 7: When I would watch all these Westerns on TV, I
• 36:40
  Speaker 7: guess I would see people wanting them to get shot.
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: Here he was, watching TV, watching Westerns, lots of shootouts.
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: He particularly enjoyed when the bad guy was successful. In
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: the late 50s and during the 60s, the era of Vietnam,
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: John Kennedy was assassinated by a sniper. Charles Whitman was
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: a particularly successful sniper at the University of Texas in 1966.
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: It was a period of time of a lot of violence,
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: a lot of violence that didn't make any sense. So
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: you have to wonder about the impact of some of
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: the events of that period and what role they played
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: in him and his decision to ultimately become a serial sniper.
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: Was there a point in time where something could have
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: been done to put you on a different course?
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Was there some kind of intervention that could have happened?
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: If I had some people to teach me and encourage
• 37:34
  Speaker 7: me to go to school and get an education and all,
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: when I was little, my life would have turned out
• 37:38
  Speaker 7: a whole lot differently, you know?
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Do you think you still would have become a serial sniper?
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: I don't think I would have, no. I wouldn't have
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: built up all that hatred over the years, you know?
• 37:47
  Speaker 7: It's a The thing that everybody does when they get hurt,
• 37:49
  Speaker 7: they want to pass that pain on.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: I just kept getting angry, you know.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Do you think you were born to kill?
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess you could say that.
• 37:58
  Speaker 7: Some people are just born with a streak that they
• 38:00
  Speaker 7: can do something like that. There's other people, I guess
• 38:03
  Speaker 7: if the same thing had happened, they wouldn't have done anything.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Joseph.
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: referred to himself in previous interviews as a natural born killer.
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: And I asked him about that, and he agreed that
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: that was a possibility for him. Again, almost a recognition
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: that in spite of this environment that he described as abusive,
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: he still was a.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Natural born killer.
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: And the research up to this point seems to suggest
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: that there seems to be some part of it that
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: is hardwired In other words, genetic link to this personality disorder.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Do you think there was a part of you that
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: at that time enjoyed the killing?
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: I wouldn't say enjoyed it. It was just something I
• 38:49
  Speaker 7: felt I had to do. There was nobody else doing it,
• 38:52
  Speaker 7: so I figured.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: I had to do it.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: How did you feel once you finished the shooting?
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: I was just glad to get away.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Was it sexually arousing when you were pulling the trigger?
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Not at all, no.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Have you had violent sexual fantasies?
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: What do you mean by violent sexual fantasies?
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Violence and sex are involved in your fantasies.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: That would be a VSF, huh? No, I never had
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: any of those. I wasn't into that. The only thing
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: I got sexually aroused with was women.
• 39:21
  Speaker 7: I was either out chasing skirts, trying to get laid,
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: or I was out trying to kill an interracial couple
• 39:28
  Speaker 7: or a black man.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: That was what I was spending most of my time doing.
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: For some people, though, killing is very sexual.
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know. There's some sick puppies out there. I
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: don't fall in that category, though.
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: The most frequently seen serial killer in my unit are
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: those serial killers who who are motivated for sexual purposes.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: In other words, they're.
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: Sexually gratified in some way as a result of murdering
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: the victim. Joseph does fit the definition of a serial killer. Now,
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: his motivation was different, and he talked about his motivation
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: being non-sexual, which is obviously a very touchy area to
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: get into with an individual. Is he telling the truth?
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: There's no way to know that. We're depending on him
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: to tell us that. If it is true, it may
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: be too embarrassing for him to admit. Or they may
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: not have been sexually motivated.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And as we close, let me ask you this.
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: How do you feel about the people that you killed?
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: I feel sorry for them. I regret having done that,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: What does regret feel like to Joseph Paul Franklin?
• 40:39
  Speaker 7: Well, I just, in other words, I just wished I
• 40:40
  Speaker 7: had not done it, you know. I feel sorry for
• 40:43
  Speaker 7: the people, you know. It was really wrong for me
• 40:46
  Speaker 7: to do that.
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: I think like most serial killers, Joseph knows right from wrong.
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: He talked about regret, but whether or not that was
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: a sincere, remorseful regret, I can only tell you what
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: my opinion was based on my experience with these types
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: of offenders. And I did not walk away with the
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: sense that he had those feelings of remorse and guilt.
• 41:12
  Speaker 7: I was under the influence of the devil, to be
• 41:14
  Speaker 7: quite honest. I know that sounds, you know, I'm not
• 41:17
  Speaker 7: trying to say the devil made me do it, but
• 41:19
  Speaker 7: the devil does put thoughts in people's minds.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: That is a fact.
• 41:24
  Speaker 7: At the time when Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy
• 41:27
  Speaker 7: were both assassinated, the same year, and the party carried
• 41:31
  Speaker 7: an article that was titled Two Enemies of the White
• 41:35
  Speaker 7: Race Die. That's the kind of stuff I was feeding
• 41:38
  Speaker 7: my mind for.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Years and years.
• 41:39
  Speaker 7: That's why I began thinking of Blacks is nothing but
• 41:43
  Speaker 7: subhumans who go around committing nothing but rapes and raping
• 41:47
  Speaker 7: white women and killing. I know that's just a criminal
• 41:50
  Speaker 7: element now. There's a lot of hardworking blacks who don't
• 41:52
  Speaker 7: do that stuff.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: You mentioned heaven and hell.
• 41:56
  Speaker 7: Yeah, the Bible mentions those and so does the Koran.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: What do you think is going to happen to you
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: when you die?
• 42:03
  Speaker 7: Well, I'm trusting in Jehovah's mercy, you know, trusting in
• 42:07
  Speaker 7: God's mercy.
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: I think Joseph lives in the here and now. I
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: think he lives for the present moment. I think he's
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: obviously cognizant or aware that he has the death penalty
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: hanging over his head. But there also may be a
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: part of him that thinks that something may happen ultimately
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: and he won't be executed. Many serial killers who are
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: psychopaths are very optimistic in terms of their future.
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Joseph was hardly a disappointment. Joseph's smart. He's articulate.
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: And listening to him talk about what he wanted to do,
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: what his whole purpose was, made him even more frightening
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: of an individual than we realized 30-some years ago. I
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: think that he was absolutely a very, very dangerous serial killer,
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: set apart from many of the other ones that we
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: saw then.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: And that we see today.
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: One of the reasons for this kind of interview is
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: not just to develop a better understanding of these kinds
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: of offenders, but also to help investigators the next time
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: that this.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Type of crime occurs.
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: Joseph Paul Franklin will not be our last serial sniper.
• 43:26
  Speaker 5: And we know that because we had the Beltway snipers
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: right after 9-11. A lot of the information that Joseph
• 43:33
  Speaker 5: talked about is information that we can take in to
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: not only prepare the investigation but to also help prepare
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: for the interview with the next serial sniper.