Latest / Beyond the Sermon / I want to do what is right, but I can't!: Conversation

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I want to do what is right, but I can't!: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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You're listening to Beyond the Sermon, the podcast the First
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Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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On our podcast, the goal is not just to share our sermons, but
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to go beyond the sermon and talk about what we're learning and
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what God is doing in US and in our community.
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The conversation you're about to join was inspired by our Spring
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Mixtape 2025 non series sermon series.
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Rather than a series, this will be a collection of sermons based
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on what God is leading us to preach on this spring.
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You can find out more information about our church at
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fumccollingswood.org. Thanks for joining us for this
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conversation. So Jeremy, you really jumped
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into the deep end of the pool this week with your sermon.
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Did I? You did.
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You did. OK.
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I think you did, yeah. I mean, certainly not a bad
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thing. It's just it's not every day you
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walk into church or in my case, put on the podcast and, you
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know, hear someone wrestling with what Paul's talking about
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there in chapters 6-7 and eight of Romans.
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And, you know, I think most of the time pastors at best are
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like, are most likely to just kind of ignore those chapters
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and not really wrestle with the reality of them.
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Or hone in on like two to six verse section of them and just
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focus more on like the plain reading of.
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I think it's hard for a lot of pastors and churches to approach
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that section and let go of their already preconceived notions of
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what Paul is saying there. So hopefully it was helpful to
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people. How'd you end up there though?
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What what led you to jump into? That section in general, yeah,
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or like. Or to that idea like what how
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did how did God get you to want to preach that sermon from that
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passage? So there's a chapter.
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One of the books I had to do a review on for school was called
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To Be Holy by John Oswalt. Oswalt Dang it, one day I'll get
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it right on this podcast maybe. And I was, I think I talked
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about it earlier on the podcast of just like the first half of
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the book, I hadn't even finished it.
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And in the second-half, he really dives into this argument
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of believers not only being called to holiness, but the
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capacity to be more holy than maybe we either deemed possible
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or whatever. Because we know ourselves and we
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know our limitations. But we seem to focus more on
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that than on God and his lack of limitations of what he can do in
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general and what he can do in and through us.
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And so that's where I kind of started out with was like from
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that. And then I never even read that
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chapter last week, but like, like I was going to reference
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it, but kind of that that general thing.
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And then I was like, I this would be a whole series.
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Yeah. To go through all of Chapter 6
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and 7 and 8. And so which I did.
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Offer to you at one point. So then, but I, yeah, because I
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have, I'm, I'm preaching this coming week as well.
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And I couldn't find a part where like you would just cliffhanger
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and be like, oh, well, we just spent a whole Sunday to not get
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to a point and then next week we'll finish it up.
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I didn't know how to make it possible.
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I didn't know where to hone in. And then Angela Mess, I'll throw
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out her name, sent me a YouTube link of a, of a guy because we'd
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been like talking about Romans 6 through 8 and of a guy that she
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follows. Actually, she volunteers for the
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Wise Disciple and he had a video focusing in on this section of
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Chapter 7 and he points to reasonings within the text and
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wording in chapter 6 and 8. And I was like, OK, I really
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liked how he didn't have to go through all of the chapters, but
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he could focus on just a few to get us associated with the
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concept and the understanding of it.
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And then where do we go from there?
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And we and we went with like a similar conclusion, but he used
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very different texts. And it was his, his conclusion
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and application was very, very quick and short.
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He was more just focused on. Working through the.
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Yeah, working through the text and showing that it's not Paul
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talking about his current experience.
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And so that helped me give like a, a framework of how to tackle
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this in a way that's not as crazy.
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And then there was a there was a couple things that shifted
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around through the week that I guess since I'm talking about
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it, I'll just talk, keep talking.
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Here we are. That's.
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That's. What the podcast is for.
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So I, there were, there was a version of this sermon in which
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I ended the sermon before the prayer.
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The as in like I, I acted as if that whole first section was the
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entirety of my sermon. And then I would say, OK, let's
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close in prayer. And you know, that'd be like 5-6
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minutes, right? Which no one would be surprised
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of from me. But then I would afterwards be
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like, oh, I'm getting some dirty looks from SPRC members.
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I guess I should keep on going because I think that many people
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would anticipate that first section to be the sermon itself.
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But it's, it's what's expected. And in a lot of places it's
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what's taught regularly because as I spoke in the sermon of like
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you do a plain reading and you're just reading that
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section. It's hard to get any other
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conclusion from that section. So that was shifted in the in
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the towards the end where I was talking about not focusing on
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the do's and don'ts, but whose we are and who we have to help.
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I was going to go into kind of like a back and forth of we are
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this because of God or God says we are this, we are not this and
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kind of going back and forth. And that got shifted Saturday
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night when I showed up and I was like, Oh, I'm like pretty much
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done. Let me just like connect a
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couple pieces. And then God just kept like
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providing things over and over again.
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And that was one of the changes that came out of that and giving
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phrases and all this stuff. And at one point I was like, I
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don't know, I felt like I wasn't capable of doing justice to what
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God wanted me to share. So I just like, I wasn't arguing
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with God, but I was just like, God, I, I don't know how to
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convey what you're providing me to the congregation.
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Well, yeah. And then at one point he was
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just like, have you not been paying attention to the entire
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sermon you've been preparing? I was like, oh.
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Not about you, Jeremy it. Doesn't have to be by my own
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power and me doing the thing. I'm like, OK, God, I I literally
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smacked myself in the forehead sanctuary so hard because I was
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like, wow, it it. And that's the thing.
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That's why I think it's so important to delve into this
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text and wrestle with this and not just be like interesting
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concept and be done. Because like, even though I've
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been ruminating on it slightly for maybe a month and intensely
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for the past couple of weeks, it can still just stick to head
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knowledge and you not know it with your heart.
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Yeah, like live it out. Well, and and it's not just
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about sin. Yeah, right.
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Like that's, that's what Paul's focusing in on.
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It's easy to just stay there and think, all right, this this
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whole passage is all about what God is or isn't able to do in
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regard to the sin and the way we live our lives.
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But we we don't realize that it's all about what God is able
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to do in a human person, Right. And that's exactly what God was
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finally trying to get through to you.
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Yeah, yeah. So it was, it was a beautiful
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time Saturday night. Like I went in and I was like,
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I'll be done by 9:30. I'll get a good night's sleep.
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And then I was there till like 12/30, 1:00.
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But it wasn't like I told her back.
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I was like, I'm doing fine. Like this is great.
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Like I'm I'm enjoying this time with God in preparation and then
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the only other shift that I guess people that were in either
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services. I used all Scripture NIV for
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service, all Scripture NLT second service.
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And there are some big enough changes in wording that it did
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change kind of how I talked about it afterwards.
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Still in the NIV it says, but those who live in accordance
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with the Spirit have their mind set on what the Spirit desires.
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So then I went on like mindset, what does the Spirit desire?
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He desires the same thing as the Father Son and went and then we
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went into the freedom and what does the Father and Son desire?
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But in the NLT, it uses the phrasing of, but those who are
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controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please
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the Spirit. And so like, same meaning, but
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how you like talk about those things.
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Yeah, I felt like it's more direct in the one text than the
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other. And so that was another
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variation, more of the more prominent variation I would say.
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Curious, as you were thinking through all of this sermon and
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what God's able to do and what sin means for us now and what it
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is to live in the Spirit, did you think at all about Genesis 2
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and 3? We're just reflecting on the
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fall in general. Yeah, because I, because the
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reason I ask is I think so often we get wrapped up in this idea
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that, you know, Romans 7 is Paul describing his current
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experience. Because we only ever start our,
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our theological anthropology, right?
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Our. Our.
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Idea isn't anthropology. Like, never mind.
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Yes, I'm with you, okay. The study of humanity, right?
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Not where I was going with it. That's why I stopped myself.
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Okay, all right, But this, this theological anthropology, this
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idea, this kind of biblical framework of what humanity is,
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we start that post Genesis 3. Yeah.
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You know, and, and we make Genesis 3 and the fall the
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limiting factor of humanity and completely ignore that God's
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creative intention for humanity preceded that fall and it's.
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Possible to live that for a while?
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Yeah, right before the. And, and not just for a while,
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right? Because Jesus did as well,
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right? And so.
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That's why it's so important that he was fully human, yes,
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and fully God, because it was only partially then he didn't
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give a an example that it is possible.
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Right, yeah, but and so I just I I think we we limit what God can
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do if we only start with humanity after Genesis three,
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Yeah. Any thoughts about how that?
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I mean there so if you so I get I hopefully by Wednesday you
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guys have till Wednesday. You've done the homework I
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assigned at Sunday. Which was to read Jenna Romans
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6-7 and eight. Yeah.
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Hopefully, you know, in close succession, if not all at once,
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yeah. Because in there there's a
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section that like, I didn't really dive into, but it's
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talking about like kind of the history of sin and the law and
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like how it makes us dead. And I think Adam's even thrown
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in there where it's, you know, the interplay of like the law.
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Let us know what is good and then we send afterwards because
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we knew what was good. So the law didn't 'cause our
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death. But it like I'm I already know
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that I'm butchering some of the phrasing, but it is very
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intricate and intentional. And so I think that part kind of
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alludes to what you're talking about, about how from Adam, pre
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fall, post fall, all the way to the Israelites receiving the
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commandments, what that meant for us and sin in our
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relationship with God. And there's a lot happening in
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those chapters. Yeah, there's a lot happening,
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yeah. Yeah, easily some of the densest
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parts of of the New Testament and.
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And and that's the thing I think dense because it covers a lot
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and it and it can shift how we view parts of the faith, parts
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of Scripture, parts of our personal life.
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But I think if we deem some of those things impossible because
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our emotions are experienced, the theology we've grown up with
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or we've gotten ourselves into, then we're withholding what God
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is going to do in our life. Or we're like putting some sort
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of barrier of like there's no condemnation in Christ.
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Oh, I just listened to a great. Great.
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Podcast, I know you're tired of hearing about him, but Francis
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chanted his first podcast in years, right?
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And not that I get notifications about that, but it just happens
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to be. He's just been watching every
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day. In years.
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And he was talking about a church pastor that had worked in
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the business world and specifically in like, training
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businesses on how to maximize profits and all that kind of
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stuff. And he would always tell
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businesses to hire insecure overachievers and their
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production will always go up infinitely.
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Yeah. And he was very saddened because
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when he got into ministry, he found that mindset influencing
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how he would preach and lead people because if they were told
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there's no condemnation under Christ, it would relieve them of
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the insecurity. And in his mind, it was he was
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trying to do it for their benefits.
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Like the more insecure they are, the more it will push them into
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the doing the good works that God wants of them.
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So if we take away that insecurity, then they'll just
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get complacent and not want do what God calls us to.
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Sure. And he's like, but when I'm
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looking at Scripture, it's as we lean into who God is, when we
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think of the things that the Spirit desires, that the, you
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know, all of this kind of stuff and truly accept the love of
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God, that's what stirs up and leads to the actions.
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Not the insecurity of not being good enough and falling short
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and all of that. But we can move confidence not
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in our works, but what Christ has done on the cross and what
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God has done. And, you know, all of the
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inspiration that we might hear about next week.
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But yeah, it was really interesting to me where, like,
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we can't fully believe certain statements because either we
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don't want them to be true, we can't fathom them to be true.
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What would those truths mean? Maybe not only for us but for
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our loved ones or for our church.
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Sure. And would that paint them or us
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in a picture we don't want to see them as?
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I mean, there's just so many layers going on in these
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chapters that I think I just provided Scott a good series
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coming up. You know, you said most pastors
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want to avoid certain sections. Yeah, but that's not our pastor,
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Scott. No, no, no.
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Yeah. It's a great example of what a
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older missionary mentor while we were in Uganda would call
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stinkin thinking. Stinkin thinking I.
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Think that's a Saint Augustine quote.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably one of those church
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fathers, but yeah. And just that idea that you you
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really got into there towards the end of the sermon, that
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where our mind is is where everything else, our actions are
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going to flow out of that, you know, the things we think about
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are going to determine the things we do, right?
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And so I think that makes it all the more important when later on
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in Romans, Paul says chapter 12, don't be conformed to the
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patterns of this world, which is what he's talking about there,
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right in Romans 7. All these things that we do
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because we're part of fallen humanity in the world is don't
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be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed
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by doing more good things. No, no studying more good books.
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No, no. Loving people better No, no,
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this is by the renewing of your mind.
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I appreciate how you you brought that in without needing to
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necessarily go to Romans 12 and where Paul's kind of climaxing
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the the book. But yeah, the idea that it's our
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minds and something you could argue mind, heart, you know,
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there's a pretty close connection there.
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But wherever you think, we, we actually think about things and
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dwell on things and reflect on things.
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That's where it's at. That's that's what has to change
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because it's like Jesus says about our speech, it's out of
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the overflow of our hearts that our mouth speaks.
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Yeah, my mom used to hold that against me, not hold that
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against me. Remind me of that scripture
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regularly when I would, out of anger, say certain things and be
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like, oh, I didn't really mean it.
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And she was like, well, out of the heart is yeah, where your
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words come from. Yep.
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I've definitely pulled that out on my boys couple times for
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sure. But it's true, right?
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It's we we want to think that somehow what's internal to us,
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as long as we don't act on it, somehow doesn't count.
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And that there's there's this divide between what we do and
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what we think about. As long as we don't do
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something, then we're off the hook.
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Yeah. Which is somehow, and I think if
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you in the context of Romans 6 through 8, you could say like,
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that's what the law said, right? As long as you don't do it,
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you're good. And that's where the law was
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never going to be enough to make us holy, as God is holy.
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Yeah, and that's the thing, I didn't even like hardware in on
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it more than I that I could have.
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But like the way 7 in that section talks about the law
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compared to how and and like I quoted verses, you know, that
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has the contradiction, but compared to how the law is
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talked about all around it. I don't know how to explain it,
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but it's it's very much it's given way more power and credit
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in the that chapter of seven. Then all these new things God is
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revealing through Paul in chapters 6 and 8, specifically
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in regards to how believers relate to the law.
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Now post Jesus and PUT. Sure yeah, I'll see if it picks
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up. Tick, tick, ticking me.
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But Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount takes all that the law was
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doing and its focus on the outward behavior.
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And he says it doesn't actually go far enough, right?
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And, and so all through the Sermon on the Mount there and in
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Matthew chapter 5-6, that area, he's saying, you heard it said
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from Moses that if this, then you're a Sinner.
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But I'm telling you that if it's in your heart, right?
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If it's in your heart, then you're just as guilty.
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So if you have hatred in your heart, it's just the same as if
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you murdered somebody. And so I think it's really
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helpful to us that you got to the point of forcing us to think
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about what it is we're thinking about.
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Yeah. Right.
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And so any recommendations or other passages of Scripture or
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anything that have been helpful to you as you have in your own
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life had to work through allowing your mind to be
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transformed. Oh gosh, I don't want to edit a
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podcast this morning, Scott. Whatever yet. 28.
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Resource wise I would say outside of scripture that points
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to scripture call to be holy mentioned earlier.
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Which we can throw that in the show notes.
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Yeah, I'm going to throw all these in the show notes.
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Brainwashed, Manny Rango and Crazy Love Francis Chan.
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For this specific area. I would say those three were
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probably the most impactful books, maybe the only books I
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read related to. That's why, because you guys
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don't read much. But those, those 3 and, and I've
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had some others that like touch on it, but these are like solid
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all the way through. I will say that crazy love is
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probably the most approachable. And that's more of just wrapping
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our minds around God's love for us and how we respond to it and
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that. So if you're dwelling on it or
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reading that book for that long, you know, it'll, it'll lead to
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things. And then brainwash is more of a
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getting out of the mind of Adam and into the mind of Christ and
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giving more next steps that and then called to be holy is more
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of like a overarching look, beginning of Bible to end of
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Bible of how holy God is and how us as his people are called from
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the beginning to the end to be a holy reflection of him.
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So I would say those are like the levels, maybe as you're
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entering into this, if you'd like to enter into this or feel
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like you're already in a certain place within that tier.
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Experiences and slash practices that have gotten me there is the
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more you trust God, the more you'll trust God.
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I don't, I don't know a more refined way to say it, but like,
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yeah, just trusting God. I need to expand because it's,
24:40
it's too vague to articulate all that it entails.
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But for me it's, it's in everything like name any action
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or decision that you make in the daily or in life.
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Are you relying on God for that, asking for direction with it?
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Are you trusting him no matter how it turns out?
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Like the more you trust him with every aspect of your life, he
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proves himself trustworthy and it makes it easier for you to
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trust him in the future. And the more you trust him, he
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shows himself. Then you're love.
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Like it's just adds an intimacy and a stronger connection within
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the relationship that helps you with the next thing and the next
25:32
thing and the next thing. And so I, I wish I had more like
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I can give, I guess examples in my life of like moving to
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Columbia for a few months to help with compassion
25:44
International. That was one of the biggest
25:47
shifts because I was trusting God with my all day, every day
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for three months of like, I don't know what this is going to
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look like. I don't know if I'm going to
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interact with what I'm going to be doing day-to-day at this
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thing. It was just being faithful to
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what God had formula. He would provide physical needs,
26:05
social needs, emotional needs, spiritual needs, like all of
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these things. And so every day it was just
26:12
being faithful. And after doing that for so many
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months in a row, why would you want to do anything else?
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And afterwards, like you, you realize how the blessings that
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he not only provides you, but also how He's able to bless
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other people through your faithfulness.
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I was like, oh, this is so much more important than the goals
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that I had prior of certain destinations to go to or things
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to acquire in this world or whatever it may be.
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And so I don't necessarily know, right, you can't just plunge and
26:49
leave your current life and standings and sure jump into
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something that that dramatic after listening to a podcast.
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But if you do, I'm so excited for you.
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But I think it's. And you didn't, right?
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You didn't just wake up one day and say I'm going to go to
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Colombia for the next three months.
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It took two days. Yeah, yeah.
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No, it was a maybe a little over a year discerning process and
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after hearing from God and that. And so I think for us here and
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now, it's literally going through your list of life and
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your priorities, your desires, all of these things and like
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checking in with God, even if it's something so minuscule that
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you're like, God doesn't care about that part of my life.
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He does, right? Heart, mind, soul, strength,
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every single part of who you are, what you have, what you do,
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He wants to be a part of it and he knows best for each and every
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one of those areas. You may be on the right track
27:53
and he may not in a loud voice say yes, stick with this amount
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of caffeine coffee for the morning, like to those degrees.
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But if you yearn after his will for your life in every area, he
28:07
will make himself known. And it's it's doing this with a
28:11
true honest desire for it. Because why would he tell you
28:16
what he already knows you're not going to go through with?
28:19
Right. Right.
28:21
So it's like, well, I didn't make it clear.
28:23
He's like, well, he knows your heart.
28:24
He knows it doesn't matter if he shouted it from the heavens.
28:27
You're not going to give up coffee forever and always.
28:29
Not that everyone has to, but like, right, a lot of people
28:31
struggle with coffee from trying to give a yeah common example of
28:35
something that sure, most people don't, but even.
28:38
Just what we do with our discretionary time, right?
28:40
Like should I sit down and watch this entire sports game or TV
28:45
season or horror movie or whatever?
28:51
It's about those little check insurance, just like in a
28:56
relationship, right? Because that's what it is.
28:59
But in a relationship with another human, like, we build
29:02
trust through the small interactions, and how we respond
29:07
to someone determines, you know, in those little bids for
29:11
attention that happen. Yeah, you.
29:13
Know when you say hey do you know blah blah blah and you're
29:16
like, no, and I don't really care, that's going to cut off
29:19
part of that relationship, right?
29:21
It's going to shut it down. But if you engage, if you get
29:23
curious, if you keep asking, then the trust grows.
29:27
And it's the same with our. Relationship on the specifics
29:32
while also trusting and the broad that he's called us to as
29:37
his people in Scripture. Yeah and so we have the
29:39
foundation and you know, example that comes up with like kids and
29:44
and should be more. It's like, OK, we're called to
29:47
dress modestly. That's objective what modesty
29:50
is. So going to God personally and
29:52
asking, you know, how does this look in my life?
29:55
So like, there's the broad and then there's the specific for
29:58
the individual and going to God, desiring what he wants for us.
30:04
But sometimes we go into scripture and we see, for
30:08
example, we, this is going to sound horrible, but I hope my
30:12
ultimate point will make it not sound as horrible.
30:16
Like take care of widows and orphans, right?
30:19
So God calls us to do so in Scripture and, and care for the
30:23
least of these and so forth, so on.
30:25
So if I, you know, open my house, put on a sign, all widows
30:29
and orphans welcome here all the time, anytime, whatever.
30:32
And like this is just my thing based off of this one scripture.
30:36
I do this forever and always. I never talk to God to get about
30:39
it. I never, you know, all this kind
30:41
of stuff. I just went all in on this thing
30:44
that we are called to do. It's thinking on like
30:48
relationally, if you know, Rebecca's favorite movie is
30:52
Pride and Prejudice, like, oh, I know that you love Pride and
30:56
Prejudice. You love reading the book, You
30:58
love watching the movie. You know, here or now, anytime
31:02
we ever watch TV, we're going to be watching Pride and Prejudice
31:05
because I know how much you love Pride and Prejudice and not give
31:10
her a voice and to say not ever reconsider.
31:13
At some point, maybe we should stop.
31:15
You know, it's been three years of only watching Pride and
31:18
Prejudice. You want to watch something
31:21
else, Rebecca, like never considering that something else.
31:25
And so it's also, I think as we see Paul and and them as I
31:30
talked a couple weeks ago of like desiring going out because
31:35
they knew that they were to share the gospel.
31:37
That's what God wanted all of his believers to go and do.
31:40
And as they're going out to do what God wanted, the Spirit
31:43
steers them away, not from sharing the gospel, right, but
31:47
doing it at that specific place at that specific time and moving
31:52
on and moving on. Because trusting God that with
31:55
the time He's given us that it would be most fruitful for the
31:59
Kingdom where he sends us at that time.
32:02
And I think that needs to be the desire in our heart, not just,
32:05
oh, I feel most comfortable with housing and feeding widows and
32:11
orphans. And God likes that.
32:13
So that's what I'm going to do because that's what I'm most
32:14
comfortable with. What if God calls you to
32:16
preaching and you're like, I don't like talking to five
32:19
people in a room, let alone to a room of 50 or more, whatever it
32:24
may be. And yet God knows not
32:27
necessarily what you can do on your own power, but with the
32:31
power of the Holy Spirit in you, what he's able to do in that
32:34
time. And so that's, I think the mind
32:37
shift that's important, the thinking of the Holy Spirit,
32:40
thinking on the Father, on his love, what he desires for us,
32:43
and allowing him to lead us, right.
32:46
It's in the NIV. The NLT version was controlled
32:49
by the Holy Spirit. We're relinquishing that control
32:53
over to Him. And I think those are the things
32:57
that the more you relinquish control, the more you think
33:00
about what God desires and you strive again to love him with
33:04
all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
33:06
Love your neighbor as yourself. He will guide you.
33:11
We just don't want to do that. Yeah, like, and I'm not saying
33:15
we use them like we extremely immature Christians that, you
33:19
know, whatever it may be, but like just down to our core,
33:24
releasing control completely and trying to focus on something
33:30
that isn't ourselves, right? We're the main character of our
33:33
each of our lives is going against the grain.
33:36
That's why it's the narrow path. Yeah.
33:39
So here's the invitation for you today as you listen to this
33:43
podcast. You know, unless you've been,
33:46
you know, sitting in your car hoping to finish this before you
33:50
rush into your next thing, as I know you do, if you've got the
33:54
time, take two minutes, 3 minutes, 5 minutes and just ask
34:00
God about the rest of your day and, and what he's saying and to
34:05
give you the his eyes to see the situations around you and, and
34:11
to ask him how he might want to use you today.
34:19
Well, that's our conversation for today, but that doesn't mean
34:22
the conversation is over. We'd love to hear your thoughts
34:25
on these topics as well. To ask a question about anything
34:28
we've discussed in this episode or to join the conversation, you
34:31
can head over to fumccollingswood.org/podcast.
34:37
Thanks for being part of this conversation.