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No One Is Neutral: How Your Beliefs Shape the World Around You · Relish: a Christian podcast

• 0:01
  Relish, pleasing or zestful flavor, a quantity just sufficient to flavor,
• 0:07
  to be pleased or gratified by, enjoy.
• 0:10
  We are hoping that what we bring to your table today might add some spice to your life.
• 0:16
  Welcome to another episode of Relish. My name is Alex Zerman.
• 0:20
  This is Pastor Don Patterson. How are you doing, Don? Oh, wonderful. Wonderful.
• 0:27
  All rejuvenated. Oh, yes. Yeah.
• 0:29
  Great. You know, when we first started this, you know, I was saying,
• 0:32
  I think I had some sort of intro and we still have Rowan on our intro and I like it. I like it.
• 0:37
  Yeah. So, and I remember on our intro, it was Pastor with 38 years experience.
• 0:45
  What we really want to know? Well, I can't. It's in the 40s.
• 0:50
  In the 40s. Yeah. That's really cool.
• 0:53
  Yeah. Yeah. Given the fact that I'm not starting over again,
• 0:56
  that's good. That's good. Yeah. You know, if I was at the beginning of 38 years
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  and knew it was going to be 38 or 42 or 40 more.
• 1:04
  Oh, that'd be interesting. Then that would have been interesting.
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  Yeah. Because it would have shaded me, you know. Yeah.
• 1:10
  Oh, I'm going to praise the Lord. 42 years. Praise the Lord.
• 1:13
  The Lord doesn't give us uh, a lot of prophecy about what's going to happen during our life.
• 1:20
  Uh, it could, you know, I ain't going there.
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  Oh, right. And we might even shy away from opportunities that he really wants
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  us to go into, but you know how that happened with Jonah.
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  It didn't go well. Yeah. I'm not going to Nineveh. No way I'm going to Nineveh.
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  Ends up in the belly of a whale. Anyway, uh, yeah, it's been good.
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  It's a lot of wonderful people I've met over the years, and a lot of them I'm
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  still in contact with. Well, if they're alive, I am.
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  They're still in contact with. And over 40 years, people die. Sure.
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  It happens. Yeah. It's a grave thought. And so I don't contact them, of course.
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  Of course. I'm sorry. I had to slide that in there. Yeah.
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  You did. Yeah, you do. Yeah. My humor hasn't changed. It hasn't got any better.
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  Yeah. It's still about, it's still about.
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  Yeah. Exactly what I expect. Very extra dry. Yeah. You're great.
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  Well, hopefully everyone has been lucky enough. They're listening or watching
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  this and didn't have a political ad in front of the episode.
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  But I hope not. Oh, the other day I was watching TV with my parents.
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  It was some football game maybe or something.
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  And seven in a row were political ads. Oh, my. I know, and you're like,
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  where's my favorite pharmaceutical ad? I miss them, you know?
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  So today, we're,
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  not getting political, but we are going to talk about some belief systems here,
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  okay? All right, so let me just start with this question for the listeners.
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  Is there anything you believe is so harmful You wouldn't want your children
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  to be exposed to it Like pornography, for example Or drugs or a particular ideology
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  Maybe it's a religion you believe is false,
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  Whatever it is, I'm guessing Every one of us has something And here's where
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  the thing gets interesting If you have this thing that you think is harmful
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  Wouldn't you want to protect your kids from it?
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  Wouldn't you want to influence them in a different way because you want to protect
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  your kids? Well, of course you would. But what happens when someone else says,
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  and I hear this a lot, like you shouldn't impose your beliefs on somebody else.
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  That's the question we're going to explore today because here's my contention.
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  And I think this makes sense. It's like no one is neutral.
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  That's an argument I'm going to put out there. No one's neutral.
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  If you disagree, love to hear your comments.
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  But I think every one of us has beliefs about what is true and what is false,
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  what is good and what's harmful, what is morally right, what's morally wrong,
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  and what kind of society should reflect those values.
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  The Christian has their beliefs, the Muslim, you know, atheists,
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  you know, everyone has their own belief, then they want to influence society in that way.
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  So the question isn't whether we should have convictions.
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  Right. The question is, how do we determine which beliefs are true and how should
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  those beliefs influence our communities and how do we treat people who disagree with us?
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  That's what we're going to work through today. So, Don, that'd be a lot of fun.
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  Do you think it's possible for anyone to listening to this one?
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  See, I talk for two minutes and he gets so itchy.
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  Here's your question, Don. All right. Do you think it's possible for anyone
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  to be completely neutral when it comes to their beliefs about morality,
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  religion, and how society should operate?
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  I don't know how it's possible to be neutral. You can be apathetic,
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  but I'm not sure you can be neutral because you grow up.
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  Usually, most people grow up
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  a child of somebody, and our first influences are from our parents. Yeah.
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  And so, we'll have their opinions, or if we're really mad at them,
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  we'll go against their opinions so that we're totally opposite,
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  but you're not neutral. Right.
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  Because even if we're reactive to our parents' opinions, we have an opinion.
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  And so, we're not neutral. And then you go to school.
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  God bless us. And you hear all sorts of opinions. Oh, yeah. And lots of times,
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  opinions of teachers influence us in this. It's sort of the same way. Right.
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  If you like the teacher, then you, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we should
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  think. And if you don't like the teacher, oh, no way I'm thinking that way. Right.
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  And so we tend to have an outside influence to the crafting of our positions on any given subject.
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  And what's interesting is over the course of time, sometimes you can meet this
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  person who has this wild plethora.
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  Of opinions that have been formed from so many different places that,
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  wait a minute, that doesn't fit anywhere.
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  Conservative, liberal, it doesn't fit.
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  And you can even have communities that have an opinion about having an opinion. Oh, yeah.
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  And so I found some churches where if you raise the question.
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  You're in danger of being silenced because we just cannot talk about that here.
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  Yeah, your classic avoidant personality.
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  Which means they have an opinion. Exactly. Yeah.
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  I grew up with a very active family and a lot of, well, yeah,
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  my mom's side of the family talked politics all the time.
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  And read the newspaper, TV.
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  Yeah, they had it all down pat. So politics was,
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  talked about a lot, great deal. And it was a lively discussion. Yep.
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  And when we left, nobody was leaking blood on the floor. Uh,
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  so the conversation was something we could do.
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  Uh, and I grew up in dad's family. They, they could openly talk about what was
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  going on and sometimes disagree and it was all right.
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  Yeah. You're still my uncle after all that.
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  Uh, and, and we didn't divide up the family over that kind of issue.
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  Um, but there's some places where you cannot have an opinion.
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  And especially if that opinion deviates from somebody else's. Yeah.
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  And I think the thing that I mourn in the midst of that is you can't have the conversation.
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  That's the hard part. So that what you know about the subject and what I know
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  about the subject never reaches the table where we can look at it together and
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  say, well, you know, oh, well, yeah, that's right. Oh, yeah. And that's right.
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  So how do we deal with this realistically? Right.
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  And then there's also that aspect that it's possible somebody might be trying to influence us.
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  Yeah. Sort of like having seven advertisements during the football game.
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  Oh, yeah. Is somebody trying to influence you?
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  I mean, they pay a lot of money to have that advertisement in the middle of,
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  football. It's a game. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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  See, I don't watch football, so I didn't get that. Right.
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  So they have to put their advertisements in different places to get. yeah,
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  oh youtube is i'm sure yeah full of them i'm sure 50 billion dollars is being
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  spent on just youtube advertisement and it'll be right and it's one way to incite
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  you to actually sign up yeah,
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  and pay for this subscription so you don't get the advertisement okay that is
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  a good selling point right so
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  uh yeah so everyone's got this world view everyone's got this world view,
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  people are trying to influence it you know does that mean that everyone is in
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  some way trying to like shape the world around them or what they believe is good?
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  I think everybody's trying to do that a little bit. Right. In fact,
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  what scares me the most are the ones who don't.
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  Oh, interesting. Because if you don't have an opinion, do you really not have
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  an opinion? Or are you going to try to get your opinion across to me some other
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  way, subliminal or subversive or...
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  Who knows how they're going to try to get to point across. Um,
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  I never run the, uh, football commercials backwards. Have you.
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  I think you do raise an interesting point because I have heard like from atheists
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  and I, this is kind of the sense that I get from them is that they are, they are kind of, um,
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  there's like a reward system in their brain for not having an ideology.
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  Like oh no I don't have a deity so I don't do that and so the same thing goes
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  for people who just really just I don't have an opinion there's a reward system
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  in their brain that says I don't have an opinion so I'm better,
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  yeah so that's I mean maybe that's how that works maybe not I'm not really sure
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  but you know you can always find a way to say oh I'm not going to be confrontational
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  here or I'm not going to bring up this or I'm not going to speak of this at this point in time,
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  because of this moral reason in your head, right?
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  And I wonder if maybe there are some Christians in the world that are getting
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  to this point of this maybe complacency, maybe it's fear where they're not quite
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  sure if they have the space in here to do it because we're not confrontational.
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  No, we're compassionate and we don't do this, but that's not something that
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  we really see Jesus model at all.
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  Yeah. The fear, there's also a fatigue factor to it. Yeah.
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  We've been at this issue a long time and it's been talked about and talked about
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  it has never been settled and so the fatigue factor fear fatigue what was the
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  first one you had you had one more before that and i forgot it already it's a joy of becoming older.
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  Uh i'm just tired talking about it yeah and i've run into those people uh-huh
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  i'm just tired talking about it yeah,
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  But the opinion is still there. Right.
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  And that's what we're hitting on. So that's kind of like my first argument that
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  I'd like us to make out there that I don't think that anybody really can disagree
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  with is that here it is. No one's neutral. Right.
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  There's not a soul here. Like everyone has beliefs about truth,
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  morality, good and evil.
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  And I don't think I have to fight anybody over that. I think everyone would
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  be like, yeah, that's pretty reasonable.
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  So if that's the case, everyone has an opinion, right? No one's neutral about literally anything.
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  On anything.
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  What does that do? Well, I mean, those are beliefs, right? Those,
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  can we say those shape how we live?
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  Do your beliefs shape how you live? They do. They affect how I respond to any
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  given situation in my day. Right.
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  Because if somebody has a flat tire beside the road, I'm, I'm nudged in my,
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  in my very being to say, oh, that
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  person should be helped. Because of my beliefs. Because of my beliefs.
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  Do unto others as you would have them do, do unto you. I'd like to have somebody
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  stop when I have a flat tire beside the road. So I'm going to stop for somebody
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  who does have a flat tire beside the road, because that's part of my belief system. Yeah.
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  And I'll feel guilty all the time. I don't go.
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  If I don't stop, I'll feel guilty. And that also is impacting my opinion as well.
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  So those beliefs are, yeah, we can't be neutral. Nope. You're going to think
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  something as you pass that car. Right.
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  And those beliefs shape how you live. They shape how you live.
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  They shape a people around you, right?
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  They shape society, right? Yes, exactly. And households. And our beliefs affect our children.
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  They're going to affect maybe to the third and fourth generation.
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  That's a good point. Because we share those and they see those.
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  We are their adults and they know what we value and what we don't value.
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  And carry those on. Right.
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  And here's a tricky segue here then. If we see the shaping of this society,
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  right, we see all this happening.
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  I mean, in the United States, sometimes we like to think, we like to tell ourselves
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  this, like, oh, we are the first society that says...
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  We allow everything, every religion. But that's not.
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  That's not what the constitution says. No, it is. Right. It doesn't say that
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  religions can't shape culture.
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  It doesn't say that. It says there's no state religion. Right. Right.
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  So just getting past that, the point here I'm trying to make is that like,
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  there's no neutral society. There's no such thing. There can't be.
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  Right. It's not going to happen. So. As long as you're human and I'm human.
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  Exactly. Everybody else listening is human, I think.
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  Some of them are. There might be one out there. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
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  Right. But maybe AI is listening. Truly.
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  At some point. Right? At some point. Yeah.
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  But the thing is, how is my religion going to get in your way?
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  How is your religion going to get in my way? How much does it affect each other?
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  How much can it create good between us?
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  Change what you just said, but take out religion and put beliefs.
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  Belief because i think there's people out there that don't have a religion and
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  actually have a maybe a stigma against that word oh but they do have beliefs
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  we've just established that right,
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  so if you don't have a religion because that's a something that stupid people
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  do right they have religion oh you're better than that i'm not i'm not trying
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  to alienate anybody out there but um,
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  i've heard that and i sympathize well that makes sense um.
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  You've heard that you've been influenced by that yeah yeah i mean it makes sense
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  i get i get where they're coming from right you know but like they still would
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  say that you know i have a system of beliefs,
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  and yeah and they would and i and
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  i want my system of beliefs to influence society not yours not yours oh,
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  and see i'm ornery mainly because i'm born that way i guess i would like to have the conversations,
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  What's interesting is in so many of these beliefs, belief systems,
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  I hang on to mine. I don't want yours. Yeah.
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  And you just keep them over there to yourself because I don't want any of your beliefs.
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  And what's happening is, and I think there's some intentionality behind it.
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  We separate the beliefs so that we can't have the conversation and allow those
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  things to be out and say, oh, yeah, I can see where that really benefits. all of us.
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  And I can see where that doesn't benefit anybody.
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  And so we have to keep that in check because it hurts our society.
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  It hurts our culture. It hurts our children. It hurts the next generation.
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  And this we embrace because of what it does good for us.
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  Not just for me, but also for you. And so the conversation doesn't happen.
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  It's kept from happening. And we all suffer.
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  I guess I think our forefathers thought ahead well in that when we bring together
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  the Senate and the Congress, they're coming from different places,
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  different cultures are represented just because of the location they're at.
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  And so the conversation can happen in such a way on the floor of our government,
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  that we can make the case that this is good or this is not, and why.
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  And I think it's, I'll be on me. Can I be on me? Go for it.
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  When you elected officials don't show up for the conversation,
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  naughty. That's very naughty.
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  Yeah. You need to show up for the conversation. and represent the people you are voted to represent.
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  That's naughty that you don't show up to have the conversation. I'm more...
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  It's as important to me that you show up for the conversation as it is the vote.
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  The conversation's important. Absolutely. When I hear statements that,
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  oh, well, this group of people didn't show up when this group of people was
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  talking, I think there should be some demerit.
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  Yeah. Am I mean? Because you guys are elected to be the conversation. Right.
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  Right. And to have a conversation. We're literally paying you to sit in the
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  room within the tension, right, and to work this out.
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  Now, whenever I'm in a conversation, and we're definitely getting sidetracked
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  here, but I think it's okay. It's okay.
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  Whenever I'm in a conversation where I'm trying to win, we're not getting anywhere. Ah. Right.
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  When winning is the goal. Right. And so I get that politics,
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  there is a point where there has to be some winning and losing, right?
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  Yeah. But I think we all see and respond correctly when we don't like that attitude
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  of it just looks like they're trying to win and lose.
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  Right. Like you and your spouse, if you if you if you approach every conversation
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  trying to win, that's not going to get anywhere.
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  But if you're able to sit in the tension between disagreements without needing
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  to defeat to make yourself feel good for being a winner.
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  Well, first of all, you're going to be a lot better place. you're going to make
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  better decisions and the relationship's going to remain intact and probably
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  grow stronger. But if you're trying to win, that relationship's going downhill. Right.
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  And that's where, uh, one of those little commodities like respect is helpful
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  in any conversation because I really don't want to diminish you.
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  Uh, I, I want to hear what you have to say, but I also want to be able to say my piece.
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  And so to me, that's, that's what we need to be about more in this,
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  especially in this era, in this era with so much communication going on.
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  It's done in almost different fields. Yeah. And oh, then you enter the fact
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  that AI is part of it and they can actually craft the algorithm of what you get.
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  So if you go on Facebook and some of these, they actually have crafted what
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  you get. Right. When you scroll. Yeah.
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  Because they know what you like to scroll. Yeah. And so they crafted that.
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  I love those algorithms. Sure.
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  They're enjoyable. They make. I'm onry. Yeah.
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  Because what i will actually do is go on to the,
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  okay so say it's uh politics yeah and and so i'm a certain party okay and so
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  i get a lot of that because that's what i will be ornery,
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  and start looking at looking for the other ads yeah.
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  Keep it guessing because yeah i love to make that dumb mechanical thing think different interesting,
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  i'm thinking outside the box because i i'm aware of how much it's being crafted,
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  what i consume is being crafted outside of myself and so just the awareness
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  makes me honoree and so i'll go and bring up,
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  do you disapprove no i'm just uh i'm sitting here thinking how foolish you are
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  to be saying this online i mean it's your algorithm ai bot's gonna hear and
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  now it's gonna know no oh i'm sorry ai i informed you.
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  How foolish i am yeah we are okay well it'll be interesting seeing what comes
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  up on my feed oh yeah hopefully it's just like puppies and stuff um so go back on track here,
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  maybe we'll see uh you know because we're talking about the senate we're talking
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  about how values are shaped how all these things, these belief systems,
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  what that does to society, right?
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  So every society,
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  then through, you know, for the United States, this is the House,
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  this is the Senate, this is the judicial branch, this is the executive branch.
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  Promote certain values, right? And discourage other. And what's interesting
• 21:45
  is you tend to get more of the behavior you encourage and less of the behavior
• 21:49
  that you discourage. Right.
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  Okay. So that's the way it should be. That's, well, that's, that's logic.
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  That's the way, that's what happens, right? So you, if you, if you,
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  and I'm going to, hopefully I'm going to hit both sides here as an example.
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  Um, if you allow people to come across the border,
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  and they get very good treatment and then get to spend all this time in the
• 22:11
  United States free of charge at the taxpayer's dime, free this,
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  free that, you're proponing that.
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  That's going to happen more now, whether that's good or bad, whatever.
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  If you allow large businesses to get giant tax breaks or to,
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  manipulate the supply chain system so that they push out all the smaller guys
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  and then you create a monopoly, that's also that tax code, those laws that are
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  on the books are enabling that.
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  You're encouraging that behavior as well. So whatever you encourage,
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  whatever you promote, that's what you're going to get more of.
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  Whatever you punish, that's where you get less of in our values,
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  our beliefs shape that. Yeah, true.
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  And I remember when we were working with Hmong people who were being highly
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  persecuted in their land.
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  And churches were finding places where they could live over here to escape the
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  persecution they were going under.
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  And how hard it was to get spots and make sure that they could find employment
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  and even translate the Bible into their language, because their language is a minority language.
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  And we worked really hard with
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  the immigrants to their lives tolerable compared to where they came from.
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  And the next generation sort of, oh, this is fun.
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  Uh, then we get to the point where it's so easy to come in.
• 23:43
  It was hard at those years to get people to be able to come into our border like that.
• 23:48
  And now it was so easy. Yeah. So if you live long enough, you see this swing,
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  in the pendulum to one time to another. Um, and how dangerous it is for the
• 23:59
  pendulum to swing quite as far as it does. Yeah.
• 24:02
  Because it is dangerous. Yeah. It is. I'm.
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  I mean, that's how society is structured. And so there are going to be consequences
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  of those things, right? And it's always been. Yeah.
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  You go back and study social systems all the way back, early Greek, Roman.
• 24:19
  They always did that kind of thing. They, as if you, oscillated between two positions.
• 24:25
  They'd be over here and then they'd be over here. Oh, yeah.
• 24:28
  So it goes over time. It does. It does. I mean, you're exactly right on that.
• 24:34
  But you see one side and you see the other. And so, and obviously they're disagreeing, right? Right.
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  So let me ask you this then. In that disagreement.
• 24:47
  How do we handle that? Because more I'm seeing, because we were just talking
• 24:52
  about having conversations with people about these uncomfortable subjects.
• 24:56
  And how these uncomfortable subjects, these belief systems shape our society.
• 25:01
  And how often we might feel like the other side hates us because of our beliefs like that um,
• 25:12
  Can you, can you disagree with someone without hating them? Yeah.
• 25:15
  Do you? Yeah. It's possible.
• 25:17
  Doesn't happen very often, but it is possible. Yeah. One of the key pieces of that is respect. Yeah.
• 25:22
  And, and, uh, I, I enjoy having conversations, lively conversations.
• 25:27
  Uh, and, uh, especially, and the, the only thing that I find that's different
• 25:33
  is my respect of the individual. Yeah.
• 25:37
  I have to be responsible for how I respect the individual.
• 25:40
  And usually, not always, but usually I find if I bring respect to the other
• 25:47
  individual, then I get respect back and we can have a decent conversation.
• 25:53
  I had on several issues that were church political kind of things where just
• 25:58
  because of my position on a certain subject, people would look at me and walk away.
• 26:05
  Yeah. And I would get snappy texts from them once in a while. Yeah.
• 26:10
  When I was doing things online and things like that, because without having
• 26:16
  that respect, I mean, even if I did respect them, I didn't necessarily get it back. Yeah.
• 26:23
  So you can only be responsible for your part of the conversation.
• 26:27
  Yeah. And I think that's exactly how Christians should handle this is to.
• 26:32
  Your belief system says, treat others how you want to be treated.
• 26:35
  So treat that other person with respect, you're not going to hold that resentment
• 26:39
  in your heart about them disagreeing with you, right?
• 26:44
  We don't have to treat them like they hate us. Yeah, it hurts when someone disagrees,
• 26:48
  I guess, but I think we need to get past that to be in a more relational stance, can't we? Yeah.
• 26:54
  And then what I find is interesting is in the course of time,
• 26:59
  I'd end up in the same room with them again.
• 27:01
  Oh yeah. And then how do you treat them? Right.
• 27:05
  Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, As Christians, you know, in this society too, I'm,
• 27:11
  I feel like I've been, like, shocked at how more understanding I've been to
• 27:17
  people who are just really, really against Christianity, who are,
• 27:20
  you know, aggressively against it.
• 27:25
  I'm, like, more and more just like, yeah, I get it. Like, because Christianity
• 27:29
  is just, it is, I mean, it challenges your autonomy.
• 27:34
  It does challenge your autonomy. It does. So, like, the people that are like,
• 27:37
  Christianity is all just about just controlling people. And I was like,
• 27:40
  I get why you would think that, you know, right from the outside.
• 27:44
  I'm, I makes perfect sense why you would think that.
• 27:49
  Yeah, because Christ calls us all. Yeah. And that is common call. Right.
• 27:55
  And it's not Alex doing it or Don doing it.
• 28:00
  It's bigger than that. Yeah. It's more corporate than that and more complicated than that. Yeah.
• 28:06
  And yeah, the thing keeps coming in my head is the way the Christians of the
• 28:12
  first century, second century,
• 28:16
  were influencing their culture in such ways that it's written about how weird these Christians are.
• 28:24
  You know, here they go out and get our babies that we leave in the forest because
• 28:29
  we've got one, two, or three too many babies already. Yeah.
• 28:33
  And they would bring them and raise them as their own. And, of course, that started.
• 28:39
  Orphanages and taking care of children in the community.
• 28:44
  Christian community and how we would take care of, oh, the big one was when
• 28:48
  there was all of a sudden a disease going through a community,
• 28:55
  and it would be the Christians that would go out and take care of those who
• 29:00
  were ill because everybody else shuttered their doors. They didn't want this illness.
• 29:04
  And the Christians all of a sudden would come out and take care of them in the midst of this plague.
• 29:10
  And why would you do that?
• 29:13
  Why would you do that? And I think probably what's missing in the Christian
• 29:17
  realm right now is how many places are there that we as Christians demonstrate
• 29:22
  that commitment of Christ, that love of Christ in a,
• 29:28
  public way that people could actually see it.
• 29:31
  They're so used to having the church around. You're right. doing those things,
• 29:35
  that, uh, the public, yeah, it'll be a big deal. Let them do it.
• 29:41
  You're right. Yeah. We have given a lot of, uh, a ground that way.
• 29:45
  But I mean, if you want to be specific about getting people to view Christianity, um.
• 29:53
  The positive sides of it, right? Because obviously that's your bridge,
• 29:57
  right? That's, that's your, that's your clear bridge.
• 30:00
  Like on anyone, anyone's like, whenever anyone is inclined to think that Christianity
• 30:08
  is too oppressive, it's just about control.
• 30:12
  It's just trying to, you got to do these things, you're going to hell.
• 30:15
  I'm like, you're missing the good part.
• 30:20
  You're missing the other thing, like this other crucial part of it.
• 30:24
  But from their perspective, like I get like admit to being sinful,
• 30:29
  right? Right. All to repentance, right? You've got these things,
• 30:33
  these attitudes, these behaviors you want to live by.
• 30:36
  That's tough. That's tough. And then they see on the news, well,
• 30:40
  that pastor did that and look what he did. Oh, yeah. And that affects all his
• 30:44
  congregation. And there's another Christian that says he's so great. Right.
• 30:49
  He's just as human as that guy next door. Yeah.
• 30:52
  And you know, every time I hear that, I'm like, yeah, we're sinners.
• 30:55
  We're sinners. Yeah. Say, I'm not sinners, which is necessarily how the way we should respond.
• 31:01
  I don't think, but at least don't view every attack as persecution or not every
• 31:09
  criticism as persecution, you know, we should still obviously be willing to
• 31:14
  examine ourselves, right?
• 31:16
  Got to. In fact, Scripture calls us to do that before we take the body of Christ in communion.
• 31:23
  And so before we identify with Christ in the communion act itself,
• 31:28
  that we have to examine ourselves and make sure that we're worthy.
• 31:32
  That we've taken care of our lives in such a way that we are ready for communion.
• 31:38
  So I think we've kind of painted a pretty good picture of this problem, this issue.
• 31:44
  I mean for anyone non-believers listening um,
• 31:48
  i mean i mean even christians alike seeing this this like we do share this i
• 31:52
  this framework of like we all have beliefs,
• 31:54
  we're all want those beliefs to shape society because they shape how we live
• 31:58
  right right and we think they're good things right that's how it is too it's
• 32:01
  like oh well yeah online are objectively right,
• 32:04
  all mine are too you know no they're not because mine are right oh okay,
• 32:10
  That's usually, that's not usually how the conversation goes,
• 32:12
  but you get the idea, right? You get this idea. Like there's, and then shuts up.
• 32:18
  Amazing. A miracle. Oh, okay. Yeah. When you're that blunt and you can,
• 32:23
  I can see in Don's eyes. So he goes, yeah. Okay.
• 32:26
  There's something I don't, maybe we haven't quite addressed all the way yet.
• 32:30
  The Christianity doesn't just give us a set of values, right?
• 32:33
  That's not it. And I kind of hit on that a little bit. It's not just a values
• 32:36
  to apply to society. That's not Christianity guys.
• 32:41
  It makes a claim about every single one of us right it says that we aren't simply
• 32:46
  people who need to correct everyone else's beliefs that's not what it is,
• 32:50
  we're sinners who need to be reconciled to god and that changes the way we should
• 32:55
  live and how we should approach this entire conversation because if if,
• 33:00
  if i need god's grace just as much as the person i disagree with then I have
• 33:05
  no basis for treating them,
• 33:08
  as though I'm morally superior.
• 33:10
  And I hope I got through that in a coherent way.
• 33:13
  Yeah. And I think that's probably a good way, a segue to get into a conversation. Yeah.
• 33:18
  I'm no better than you. Yeah. Hey, listen, I'm listening to you, man.
• 33:21
  I'm, I'm don't think that my, I don't think that I am personally better than you.
• 33:27
  And I think that's the key really for if you're not a believer or if you're
• 33:31
  really struggling with this overbearing weight that you think Christianity is,
• 33:36
  you might just be in that law-based camp where you're viewing it that way instead
• 33:42
  of receiving the grace of God, the forgiveness, the.
• 33:47
  Unshackle yourself and free yourself to be able to be like, hey,
• 33:50
  you know, I'm not better than you.
• 33:53
  The difference is, I think the beliefs, right? The different,
• 33:56
  I think that Jesus is better than, and I think there's evidence for that.
• 34:00
  Now that's, that's just my standpoint.
• 34:03
  And I think if we can separate that, then I can still be able to be relational
• 34:07
  with somebody. Is that possible? It is. Okay.
• 34:11
  I, I just, I, it keeps going back in my head when we were having difficulty
• 34:17
  over the human sexuality question in the church.
• 34:21
  And so there were two lesbian ladies who were part of the conversations.
• 34:27
  God bless them. Wonderful ladies.
• 34:31
  And we would actually eat together. Yeah. Whereas the guys in the middle,
• 34:35
  you know, I'm on one side and they're on the other side of this issue.
• 34:39
  But wonderful ladies. And one really powerful truth they shared with me,
• 34:47
  and I hope you're listening,
• 34:50
  is that, wait a minute, why are you isolating this sin over all these other sins?
• 34:56
  And I said, you're exactly right. That's right. You're exactly right.
• 34:59
  I'm no better than you. Yeah.
• 35:04
  Right. And the question, ironically, was, is it sin? Is homosexuality sin?
• 35:11
  Why would that be a question? Because the question is, do we sin?
• 35:18
  Yes, we do sin. And these are ways we sin.
• 35:21
  And that's one of the ways that there's sin.
• 35:23
  And so I think they were just spot on saying, so why are you elevating this
• 35:31
  sin above all the others in those lists? And they're right.
• 35:37
  When we lie, it's just the same. When we commit adultery, it's just the same.
• 35:46
  They're right.
• 35:48
  And I respect them for being part of the conversations, and I still think highly
• 35:53
  of them. That's awesome.
• 35:56
  There's a point we disagree on. Right.
• 36:01
  That was a good challenge for me. Yeah. And I think, I guess I just really convicted,
• 36:07
  that if we can enter those conversations with a certain amount of respect for
• 36:12
  each other, the conversation will go much farther. Right.
• 36:16
  And then we can end up at a better spot rather than, well, you're evil. You're just evil.
• 36:22
  I won't talk to you anymore because you're just evil.
• 36:25
  So I think we can kind of go. Yeah. It's just, we are damaging the next generation
• 36:31
  and how they can work with things they disagree on because we're not bringing,
• 36:38
  illustrations of a good conversation,
• 36:40
  and productive conversations and where those conversations could lead and where
• 36:45
  truth can actually be tested out among.
• 36:48
  The two of you or the five of you so that you actually say, okay, that's in scripture.
• 36:53
  Let's take that seriously. That is not in scripture or that is truth.
• 36:56
  It can be proved scientifically or it can't. Right.
• 37:01
  And to me, respect in the middle of those conversations goes an awful long way. Right.
• 37:07
  Yeah, I think you want to be bringing respect in.
• 37:10
  That's how you want. You want to be able to make sure that your head and your
• 37:12
  head space going into that conversation. Check yourself.
• 37:15
  Make sure you're going in there saying, hey, or how do I want this conversation to go?
• 37:21
  If I'm like, if I'm not answering that question before I go in,
• 37:24
  and if I'm not saying, I want this to end respectfully, I want this,
• 37:28
  I want this to go well, I want this, I don't want to win.
• 37:30
  I want the relationship to remain intact.
• 37:33
  You're going to become in more understanding and you're going to be more respectful. Now.
• 37:38
  And I'm going to try to kind of close with this because everything deserves
• 37:41
  a response. You're going to respond to everything, right?
• 37:46
  So every view. So someone comes to you with a view you don't believe or you
• 37:51
  don't agree with, you have the choice of how you're going to respond.
• 37:53
  Are you going to react and tell yourself a story in your head,
• 37:57
  which I am guilty of? And I'm trying to teach my seven-year-old like this.
• 38:01
  There's a story going on in your head right now.
• 38:03
  It's not what I said. It's not what I intended, but I see it.
• 38:06
  It's valid. Yeah. It's just your feelings are valid here.
• 38:11
  But if you're on the other end of that and that's happening with you,
• 38:13
  you have to understand that you are choosing how to respond there, right?
• 38:18
  And if we want to choose by saying, okay, no, they disagree because they hate
• 38:22
  or they are morally inferior, that's not the way to go. If you're a Christian,
• 38:28
  that's not the way to go because we already went over that.
• 38:30
  We're no better, right? We're no better than them.
• 38:34
  So make sure you're not making that reaction, right? Right. Yeah,
• 38:37
  exactly. And it's really, I'll tell you what, it's easier with a seven-year-old than a 17-year-old.
• 38:43
  Can you close us by just answering this final question here, right?
• 38:47
  Because this is going to be our baseline for Christians. And if someone who's
• 38:50
  not a Christian, this might enlighten them a little bit as to how,
• 38:54
  why Christianity is not just rules and punishing and making us feel superior
• 38:59
  to somebody. So just who is Jesus Christ?
• 39:03
  He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that's hard to understand unless
• 39:08
  you realize the freedom that Jesus has given us.
• 39:13
  We have the do's and the thou's and the oughts and things of the Old Testament,
• 39:18
  and often we as Christians are seen by the do's, the thou's,
• 39:21
  and the oughts, and that we propagate them, if you will. Sure.
• 39:26
  But the truth of Jesus is the fact that he loved us enough to give up himself for us. Yeah.
• 39:32
  And that's not just a handover it he loved us enough to give himself for us
• 39:38
  so that we could be free of the things that hold us back yeah and keep us from
• 39:43
  being all he created us to be,
• 39:45
  he he has a purpose for each one of our lives i'd say he even have a purpose
• 39:50
  for each one of our conversations that they can,
• 39:55
  move in a way for the for god to be glorified yeah i think all that's anchored
• 40:02
  in Jesus Christ as our Savior.
• 40:04
  It is for me. Yeah, that's great. It's not about me. Nope. Even the conversation isn't about me.
• 40:12
  But if God puts me in a conversation, he did it in such a way that it's for him.
• 40:16
  It's for his honor, for his glory. And I'm just a representative. Yep.
• 40:20
  And hey, that's a good way to go into a conversation, too. Mm-hmm.
• 40:25
  How much better my life would be if I started every conversation,
• 40:29
  started every task, every job, every tedious little thing in my life with, this is for God.
• 40:35
  How does God want me to do this? How can I glorify God through this?
• 40:40
  How much better that would be if I could get outside of myself. Yeah.
• 40:45
  My brother, in view of God's mercy, offer your bodies as living sacrifices,
• 40:50
  holy and pleasing to God, which is your sacrifice of worship. Mm-hmm.
• 40:55
  No longer be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the
• 41:00
  renewing of your mind, then you will be able to test and approve what God's
• 41:03
  will is, his good, pleasing, and perfect will.
• 41:07
  And from there, Paul goes on and talks about how each one of us is uniquely
• 41:11
  made for the benefit of the kingdom. Amen.
• 41:17
  Romans 12, verses 1-9.
• 41:21
  Let's leave it at that. Go out there. Sacrifice yourself and serve others around
• 41:27
  you in view of God's mercy for you. Yep. Good?
• 41:33
  I think so. All right. Good job, everyone. You made it through the whole episode.
• 41:36
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• 41:40
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• 41:42
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• 41:45
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• 41:53
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• 41:57
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• 42:00
  understanding of who God is And is calling to us in our daily lives Thank you
• 42:04
  again for joining us and may God bless your day.