Latest / Startup & Tech News from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland by Startuprad.io™ / Biotech, mRNA & Moderna: MIT's Robert Langer on Deep-Tech Innovation
Transcript
- WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.159 --> 00:00:05.920 Hello, and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from start up rate dot o, your 2 00:00:05.920 --> 00:00:09.460 start up podcast and YouTube blog from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. 3 00:00:09.934 --> 00:00:13.775 As you guys know, we attended Cures 2024. And in 4 00:00:13.775 --> 00:00:17.235 the aftermath of this interview, we would like to welcome 5 00:00:17.375 --> 00:00:21.020 professor Robert Langer here with us who 6 00:00:22.380 --> 00:00:26.060 I'll talk soon about you, but I did some research, and 7 00:00:26.060 --> 00:00:29.395 you won more than 220 major 8 00:00:29.615 --> 00:00:33.455 awards. So, welcome to Startup Radio. Very happy to have you 9 00:00:33.455 --> 00:00:36.675 here. Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 10 00:00:37.610 --> 00:00:41.210 Your your schedule has been a little bit tight at the event, so 11 00:00:41.210 --> 00:00:44.970 we're doing this in the, after the real 12 00:00:44.970 --> 00:00:48.595 event. Remotely. I believe you're joining from Boston. That's 13 00:00:48.595 --> 00:00:52.410 correct. Yes. We are honored to have you here. You are 14 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:56.410 officially professors, Robert Samuel Langer junior, a 15 00:00:56.410 --> 00:00:59.930 renowned biotechnologist, chemical engineer, and 16 00:00:59.930 --> 00:01:03.324 inventor who is distinguished institute professor at 17 00:01:03.324 --> 00:01:06.545 MIT. You are holding over 1,400 18 00:01:07.805 --> 00:01:11.630 patents. That's crazy. You're the most cited engineer in history 19 00:01:11.930 --> 00:01:15.550 and have been instrumental in founding more than 40 biotech startups, 20 00:01:15.610 --> 00:01:19.295 including Moderna. You've done groundbreaking work in 21 00:01:19.295 --> 00:01:23.135 drug delivery systems and tissue engineering, and you've 22 00:01:23.455 --> 00:01:26.520 that has earned you more than 200 and 20 23 00:01:27.299 --> 00:01:30.979 major awards, including US National Medal of Science and the 24 00:01:30.979 --> 00:01:34.595 Queen Elizabeth Prize for engineering. This interview 25 00:01:34.595 --> 00:01:38.035 is, as I said, conducted in connection with Cures 2024 in 26 00:01:38.035 --> 00:01:41.875 July in Minds, and we explore the insights in biotech startup 27 00:01:41.875 --> 00:01:45.270 and your pioneering contribution to modern medicine. 28 00:01:45.409 --> 00:01:49.170 But I have to admit, I'm not a doctor, so we 29 00:01:49.170 --> 00:01:51.945 would not go too much too deep into that. 30 00:01:53.445 --> 00:01:56.665 Given your extensive involvement in the biotech sector, 31 00:01:57.205 --> 00:02:01.020 how do you perceive the current landscape for biotech startups 32 00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:04.700 in Europe compared to UES? Are there specific 33 00:02:05.240 --> 00:02:08.155 strength or challenges unique to each region? 34 00:02:09.095 --> 00:02:12.615 Well, I think they're both I think, you know, it may actually depend 35 00:02:12.615 --> 00:02:16.459 where where you are in Europe. Obviously, Germany, you know, that 36 00:02:16.540 --> 00:02:20.140 I mean, if you look at the mRNA area, 2 of the 3 main 37 00:02:20.140 --> 00:02:23.920 companies are in Germany, you know, which is BioNTech 38 00:02:24.140 --> 00:02:27.925 and and CureVac. You know, I think different countries have different cultures. 39 00:02:28.865 --> 00:02:32.065 You know, I I I think there's a lot of great stuff going on both 40 00:02:32.065 --> 00:02:35.550 places. But, you know, for both areas, I mean, 41 00:02:35.550 --> 00:02:39.170 finding funding for biotech is, you know, can be difficult. 42 00:02:39.550 --> 00:02:42.845 Finding great business people, can be difficult. 43 00:02:43.785 --> 00:02:47.545 I think different cultures have different appetites for risk taking, 44 00:02:47.545 --> 00:02:51.390 and I think that that's certainly important. But I I think there's a lot 45 00:02:51.390 --> 00:02:55.150 of similarities in the US and and and Europe. I think one 46 00:02:55.150 --> 00:02:58.715 of the other questions would be, you know, are there tax 47 00:02:58.715 --> 00:03:02.155 incentives that that you know, government incentives that can help, 48 00:03:03.275 --> 00:03:06.820 you know, people want to invest in in in 49 00:03:06.820 --> 00:03:10.340 companies, particularly in biotech companies. You know, I I'm not a 50 00:03:10.340 --> 00:03:12.440 100% familiar with the different 51 00:03:14.155 --> 00:03:17.675 laws and and tax issues in in different countries in 52 00:03:17.675 --> 00:03:21.230 Europe. I don't know that they're all the same, though. So, 53 00:03:22.030 --> 00:03:25.550 I mean, just as an example, I remember when I was in Denmark, they 54 00:03:25.550 --> 00:03:28.610 said that if you had a a reg a car, 55 00:03:29.125 --> 00:03:32.965 they, taxed it a 100 a regular car or gas guzzling 56 00:03:32.965 --> 00:03:36.485 car. I think they taxed it at, like, a 150%, you know, 57 00:03:36.485 --> 00:03:39.900 which and the reason they do that is to try to 58 00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.800 discourage, you know, or to help on things like climate change and so forth. I 59 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.495 mean, so different countries, I don't know that that's true in necessarily other 60 00:03:47.495 --> 00:03:50.935 countries. I mean, you would you would know better. But I I I think 61 00:03:50.935 --> 00:03:54.614 that, different countries have can have different laws 62 00:03:54.614 --> 00:03:57.740 that can either incent or not incent, 63 00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:01.900 you know, general investments or or biotech investments. 64 00:04:04.255 --> 00:04:07.615 Well, I I do believe we have more than 20, little 65 00:04:07.615 --> 00:04:11.430 laboratories here, all the countries in the European Union that try 66 00:04:11.430 --> 00:04:15.269 out their best to really, do what's possible within this 67 00:04:15.269 --> 00:04:18.730 frame, and I do believe you just need to learn from the best. 68 00:04:20.535 --> 00:04:24.215 What advice would you give to European biotech startups 69 00:04:24.215 --> 00:04:27.620 looking to achieve the same level of success as those in the 70 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:31.140 US, are there key areas they should focus on or 71 00:04:31.140 --> 00:04:34.895 common pitfalls they should avoid? Well, I think the 72 00:04:34.895 --> 00:04:38.575 the main thing is to have great scientists, great science, great 73 00:04:38.575 --> 00:04:42.015 intellectual property, and great business people. That might sound 74 00:04:42.015 --> 00:04:45.500 superficial. But, you know, I've seen companies fail 75 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:49.240 for any one of those reasons. So I think 76 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.925 that that you wanna make sure that you have all those things. And and I 77 00:04:52.925 --> 00:04:56.284 think you'd like to be fairly far along. In other words, you wouldn't wanna just 78 00:04:56.284 --> 00:04:59.884 have an idea. You'd wanna have reduced it to practice, you 79 00:04:59.884 --> 00:05:03.400 know, gotten some patents and publications and and things like 80 00:05:03.400 --> 00:05:06.919 that. Mhmm. As a cofounder of 81 00:05:06.919 --> 00:05:10.645 Moderna, what were the primary challenges you faced 82 00:05:10.645 --> 00:05:14.085 in the early stages of the company, and how did you overcome 83 00:05:14.085 --> 00:05:16.800 them? Well, I think the challenges 84 00:05:17.580 --> 00:05:21.259 really that Moderna faced, and they're not atypical. I mean, every 85 00:05:21.259 --> 00:05:24.720 every technology is different. I mean, I think the first thing 86 00:05:25.095 --> 00:05:28.935 that well, there were there were several challenges. I think one was, you 87 00:05:28.935 --> 00:05:32.775 know, getting good animal data. 2, tied to that was developing the 88 00:05:32.775 --> 00:05:36.120 right delivery systems. You know, 89 00:05:36.340 --> 00:05:40.100 3 was getting the right business arrangements. So all those 90 00:05:40.100 --> 00:05:43.745 things, you know, were important. We were fortunate. We had very, 91 00:05:43.824 --> 00:05:47.425 very good people working at at Moderna and still do. So I think 92 00:05:47.425 --> 00:05:50.165 that that really was critical to 93 00:05:51.320 --> 00:05:53.820 solving those issues. Mhmm. 94 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.620 Moderna's mRNA technology has revolutionized 95 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:02.125 vaccine development. How do you envision this technology 96 00:06:02.425 --> 00:06:05.945 evolving in the next decade, particular for those 97 00:06:05.945 --> 00:06:09.670 diseases beyond COVID 19? Yeah. Well, 98 00:06:09.670 --> 00:06:13.270 you can already look at Moderna's pipeline. I'm sure you can look, by the way, 99 00:06:13.270 --> 00:06:16.630 at BioNTech's pipeline too. You know? I mean but what we 100 00:06:16.630 --> 00:06:20.155 see are many other vaccines, you know, 101 00:06:20.155 --> 00:06:23.695 RSV vaccine. This is now Moderna. RSV vaccines, 102 00:06:23.835 --> 00:06:27.580 flu vaccines, combination of vaccines. There may be 103 00:06:27.580 --> 00:06:31.260 vaccines for things like Epstein Barr virus, many others. 104 00:06:31.260 --> 00:06:35.105 These these are all public information. They're they're on the website. 105 00:06:35.105 --> 00:06:38.945 They're all in, fairly advanced clinical trials. And then, of course, 106 00:06:38.945 --> 00:06:42.770 there are cancer vaccines, which I think or or, individualized 107 00:06:42.990 --> 00:06:46.830 neo gen neoantigen therapies. And then there's different rare 108 00:06:46.830 --> 00:06:50.435 diseases. So I think there's so many 109 00:06:50.435 --> 00:06:54.035 different things that are coming about. And and 110 00:06:54.035 --> 00:06:57.810 and already there have been a number of approvals, and I expect we'll see 111 00:06:57.810 --> 00:07:01.590 a lot more. With your significant 112 00:07:01.810 --> 00:07:05.509 experience in truck delivery systems, what advancements 113 00:07:06.665 --> 00:07:10.285 are you most excited about currently, and how 114 00:07:10.825 --> 00:07:13.805 might they impact the future medical treatments? 115 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:18.460 Well, we're we're doing a lot in our own laboratory. Some of 116 00:07:18.460 --> 00:07:21.900 it's aimed at better at new nano particles that can target 117 00:07:21.900 --> 00:07:23.919 cells, specific cells in the body. 118 00:07:25.775 --> 00:07:29.535 Some is aimed at trying to get through barriers like could you ever take 119 00:07:29.535 --> 00:07:32.995 these drugs orally or, could you get them to the brain? 120 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.159 So and and so there are really a lot of different 121 00:07:38.159 --> 00:07:41.379 types of challenges that we've worked on, pulmonary delivery, 122 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.194 vaginal delivery for women's health. We're doing a lot with the Gates 123 00:07:45.194 --> 00:07:49.034 Foundation for, people in the developing world where we could 124 00:07:49.034 --> 00:07:52.875 make what I'll call self boosting vaccines so you wouldn't have to go back for 125 00:07:52.875 --> 00:07:55.820 a second injection. We're also doing a lot on, 126 00:07:56.460 --> 00:08:00.220 pills that you could swallow and maybe only have to do it once, because 127 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:02.720 they would last a week or a month or or longer. 128 00:08:04.944 --> 00:08:08.705 You answered already a part of this question, but I didn't know 129 00:08:08.705 --> 00:08:12.300 your answers up front. So, let me still ask a question. Maybe we can, 130 00:08:12.620 --> 00:08:16.300 discover a new aspect here. What role do you believe government and 131 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:19.335 private sector partnerships should play in advancing 132 00:08:19.795 --> 00:08:23.635 biotech engineering, innovation, especially in the context of 133 00:08:23.635 --> 00:08:27.430 startups? Well, I think so a couple 134 00:08:27.430 --> 00:08:30.710 of things. First, the government. I mean, the government can do, of course, a lot 135 00:08:30.710 --> 00:08:34.395 of things. In the United States, we have the NIH, which 136 00:08:34.395 --> 00:08:38.155 is a great organization, and they, not only do 137 00:08:38.155 --> 00:08:41.695 research themselves, they fund research at different academic places. 138 00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:46.930 We have the FDA that that regulates these things and 139 00:08:46.930 --> 00:08:50.529 and, and and and and and so forth. I think that, 140 00:08:51.685 --> 00:08:54.985 what I would say is from the NIH, we get the basic research, 141 00:08:56.004 --> 00:08:59.144 being done that often leads to these companies. 142 00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:03.200 So so I think that's very important. I think though 143 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:07.200 one of the issues, of course, is it's one thing to make a discovery, 144 00:09:07.420 --> 00:09:11.115 which is wonderful, but then, of course, to make a product, 145 00:09:11.115 --> 00:09:14.875 it's it's very expensive. You know? So I think different kinds 146 00:09:14.875 --> 00:09:17.980 of tax laws, you know, 147 00:09:18.680 --> 00:09:22.360 can can can play a big role. The United States 148 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.925 sometimes is very concerned about pricing. Of course, that sometimes 149 00:09:25.925 --> 00:09:29.764 causes a problem. I mean, because, you know, investors who put the money 150 00:09:29.764 --> 00:09:33.125 in, they have a choice. Should they invest in the next Facebook or the next 151 00:09:33.125 --> 00:09:36.870 Moderna? You know? And when there's a lot of criticism about prices, 152 00:09:37.090 --> 00:09:40.850 well, it's pretty clear what they will do. And that's 153 00:09:40.850 --> 00:09:44.455 why I think, you know, there were very few places like I mean, 154 00:09:44.455 --> 00:09:47.095 Moderna was the only one in the US, and like I say, there were 2 155 00:09:47.095 --> 00:09:50.775 in Germany. So I think that the government can do many, many 156 00:09:50.775 --> 00:09:54.470 things, positive or negative, to influence, the 157 00:09:54.470 --> 00:09:58.230 development of of of new medicines. Sometimes there's also 158 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:01.875 agencies like ARPA H or DARPA in the United States, which 159 00:10:01.875 --> 00:10:05.315 also can be very helpful in in in, you know, young 160 00:10:05.315 --> 00:10:07.735 companies getting funding and things like that. 161 00:10:08.675 --> 00:10:12.259 Mhmm. I see. Diversity is a crucial 162 00:10:12.259 --> 00:10:15.940 element in problem solving. Can you elaborate how diversity has 163 00:10:15.940 --> 00:10:19.765 played a role in your teams and research outcomes at MIT and 164 00:10:19.765 --> 00:10:23.525 within the companies you founded? Yeah. Well, I'd rather not have 165 00:10:23.525 --> 00:10:27.205 adversity. But but but it on the other hand, it's it's hard 166 00:10:27.205 --> 00:10:31.019 to do research and and not have it. I mean, to 167 00:10:31.019 --> 00:10:34.699 me, research, I mean, is a very exciting thing. But I think when I 168 00:10:34.699 --> 00:10:37.885 look at what I've certainly done career wise, I failed 169 00:10:38.185 --> 00:10:41.805 many, many more times than I've succeeded. I think when I've developed 170 00:10:41.945 --> 00:10:45.785 for just to pick an example that's relevant, you know, 50 171 00:10:45.785 --> 00:10:49.430 years ago, I was interested in developing 172 00:10:49.890 --> 00:10:53.649 tiny little delivery systems for large molecules, which would include DNA 173 00:10:53.649 --> 00:10:56.855 or RNA, and I failed 100 of times. 174 00:10:57.334 --> 00:11:00.935 Finally, I succeeded. But, of course, one success can 175 00:11:00.935 --> 00:11:04.670 wipe out a lot of failures. And, you know, it was it 176 00:11:04.670 --> 00:11:08.430 was funny. I think one of my I I think 177 00:11:08.430 --> 00:11:12.270 at one of these recent meetings, somebody one of my 178 00:11:12.270 --> 00:11:15.095 former students, she apparently showed, 179 00:11:16.435 --> 00:11:20.195 had a cartoon of herself and and had and had 180 00:11:20.195 --> 00:11:23.940 a quote from me about that I said that I said something to the effect 181 00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:27.720 that really what's after she got a grant turned down, I said 182 00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:31.495 to her something like, well, it doesn't you know, what's really important is 183 00:11:31.495 --> 00:11:34.935 not how you handle success. Anybody can do that. It's how you handle 184 00:11:34.935 --> 00:11:38.315 failure. I like that one. 185 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.760 Like that one. The biotech industry has seen rapid 186 00:11:42.760 --> 00:11:46.220 growth during the pandemic. How do you foresee the 187 00:11:46.520 --> 00:11:49.685 industry's growth and evolution post pandemic, 188 00:11:50.225 --> 00:11:53.685 especially particularly regarding start ups? 189 00:11:54.385 --> 00:11:58.160 Well, I'm still very optimistic. There's 190 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.760 I think there'll there'll be more and more startups. I mean, you know, I think 191 00:12:01.760 --> 00:12:05.520 that that's happened the last 40 years, and I think we'll 192 00:12:05.520 --> 00:12:09.365 continue to see that. And and in in many areas, biotech and 193 00:12:09.365 --> 00:12:12.665 other areas as well, I think there's a tremendous 194 00:12:13.045 --> 00:12:16.640 amount of great science going on worldwide and and a 195 00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:20.320 need, you know, to do better and better. So I expect that that will 196 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.000 continue to happen. You know, getting enough funding, that that'll certainly be an 197 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:27.695 issue, But I think that, you know, what's I think if the 198 00:12:27.695 --> 00:12:31.375 past is any predictor, you know, there'll be ups and downs, but I 199 00:12:31.375 --> 00:12:35.050 still believe overall the good that can come out of these new 200 00:12:35.050 --> 00:12:38.510 little companies is tremendous. So I think we'll see a lot more. 201 00:12:39.530 --> 00:12:43.265 I think you've already answered the last question because we would be looking 202 00:12:43.265 --> 00:12:46.885 at the future of Moderna, but you have already talked about the public pipeline. 203 00:12:47.425 --> 00:12:50.750 And I do understand you know a lot more, but there's 204 00:12:51.290 --> 00:12:55.130 a there's a certain limit to what you could tell, according 205 00:12:55.130 --> 00:12:57.870 to SEC rules and so on and so forth. So 206 00:12:59.125 --> 00:13:02.645 only thing left, we have, 207 00:13:02.885 --> 00:13:06.725 something interesting for the last question. Otherwise, we can just cut 208 00:13:06.725 --> 00:13:10.500 it out. Yeah. I know. No. That's okay. I mean, I think that, you 209 00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:14.020 know, if there's public the the the 210 00:13:14.020 --> 00:13:17.415 real thing coming up for Moderna, probably coming up for 211 00:13:18.855 --> 00:13:22.394 any type of biotech company will be readout in clinical 212 00:13:22.454 --> 00:13:26.259 trials. You know, what what will be the readout on the cancer trials? What 213 00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:29.940 will be the read out on on other trials? I mean, that's, you know 214 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:33.905 so I think that that that will be for for 215 00:13:33.905 --> 00:13:37.505 any company, those readouts are are important milestones. I 216 00:13:37.505 --> 00:13:41.185 mean, you know, I'm it's so far, and I expect it will 217 00:13:41.185 --> 00:13:44.480 continue. The readouts have been terrific. You know, 218 00:13:45.260 --> 00:13:48.860 both BioNTech and Moderna got FDA approval for the 219 00:13:48.860 --> 00:13:52.235 COVID vaccine. Moderna got approval for the RSV 220 00:13:52.295 --> 00:13:55.815 vaccine. The data on the cancer trial so far has been excellent, but 221 00:13:55.815 --> 00:13:59.255 there's more to come, and also there's gonna be more different kinds of 222 00:13:59.255 --> 00:14:02.870 cancer trials. So, and and then there are many, many others in the 223 00:14:02.870 --> 00:14:06.710 pipeline. If somebody just looks, for example, at the Moderna website, and I'm sure 224 00:14:06.710 --> 00:14:10.355 that's true for other companies, you can you can pretty much figure out what 225 00:14:10.355 --> 00:14:13.815 the what the milestones will be. But the number one milestone 226 00:14:13.875 --> 00:14:17.550 is how well does it do for patients. You know, so far, 227 00:14:17.690 --> 00:14:21.530 it's done very, very well for patients, you know, because of the COVID 228 00:14:21.530 --> 00:14:25.365 vaccine, and I think the others are are look quite promising as well. 229 00:14:26.625 --> 00:14:30.245 I would for the last question, I would be curious because 230 00:14:30.510 --> 00:14:34.270 you have achieved already so much. What would you 231 00:14:34.270 --> 00:14:38.025 personally see as your next milestone, like a 232 00:14:38.025 --> 00:14:41.865 1,500 patents filed? Well, I think 233 00:14:41.865 --> 00:14:45.385 at this stage of my my life, I, you know, I 234 00:14:45.385 --> 00:14:49.140 I I I think to me, you know, we have a lot of 235 00:14:49.140 --> 00:14:51.940 things we're working out in the lab. I don't know that I think about it 236 00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:55.460 in terms of specific milestones, but I I always feel happy 237 00:14:55.460 --> 00:14:59.175 whenever we get a scientific paper accepted. I feel happy 238 00:14:59.175 --> 00:15:02.634 when my students get, you know, really good jobs. I 239 00:15:02.855 --> 00:15:06.530 certainly feel good when the companies I've helped, you know, 240 00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:10.290 get going, you know, get good clinical data. I mean, all 241 00:15:10.290 --> 00:15:13.645 those things. I mean, those, you know, I hope I hope I 242 00:15:14.125 --> 00:15:17.904 you know, that I'm fortunate enough to continue to see these things happen. 243 00:15:19.404 --> 00:15:23.120 How long do you want to do your research? 244 00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:27.759 Can you see yourself doing it for the next 5 or 10 years? 245 00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:32.125 I can. I mean, again, I'm I'll be 76 in in in a little 246 00:15:32.125 --> 00:15:35.885 over a month. But, I I to me, I always 247 00:15:35.885 --> 00:15:39.325 ask how could I make the most impact, positive impact on the 248 00:15:39.325 --> 00:15:43.100 world. And and, you know, as long as my health is good, 249 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:46.720 which so far it is, you know, I'll I'll try to keep going. 250 00:15:47.260 --> 00:15:50.824 I I love what I do. It's been wonderful to be able to interact 251 00:15:50.824 --> 00:15:54.584 with great students and postdocs and colleagues, and, you know, I 252 00:15:54.584 --> 00:15:58.079 I hope that I'll be able to to do a few more good 253 00:15:58.079 --> 00:16:01.839 things. Well, only thing left 254 00:16:01.839 --> 00:16:05.355 for me to say is thank you very much for this great interview, and 255 00:16:05.355 --> 00:16:09.055 hopefully, you get to do 20 more years great and impactful 256 00:16:09.195 --> 00:16:12.875 things. Well, I appreciate it. I hope you're right. Thank you so much for 257 00:16:12.875 --> 00:16:16.350 thinking of me. Totally my pleasure. Have a good day, 258 00:16:16.350 --> 00:16:20.030 professor Lange. Bye bye. And and good luck to you and your family. Thank you. 259 00:16:20.030 --> 00:16:21.730 Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye.