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How The Social Media Ban is Going · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today on
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the pod, we inspect the social media band the minimum
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: age legislation that commenced on December ten. Under sixteen's no
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: longer allowed to use the major social media platforms Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, snapchat,
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  Speaker 1: ex YouTube, Reddit, Twitch, threads and kick. The obligation, of
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: course on the platform is none of the parents of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the kids, which has a bit of good news there
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and penalties to those platforms for forty nine point five
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: million dollars for non compliance. How's it all going? We're
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: nearly eight weeks in. Should we be celebrating or commiserating?
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Has the legislation landed with a thud? Or has it
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: been the smooth sailing? Today on the Happy Families Podcast,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: we have a look at what's going right, what's going wrong,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: and what we need to do in our families to
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  Speaker 1: help our kids to navigate the digital world with these
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: changes safely and effectively. Stay with us. Gooday, Welcome to
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, where you get real parenting solutions
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: every single day. It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: just love that Kylie. Today it's a conversation that is
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: being met with, Like, I'm seeing a lot of exasperation
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: from parents who are kind of going, it's been a
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: big nothing burgers, the big deal. Yeah, like it was
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: supposed to do stuff. Nothing's happening. So today we wanted
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to have a chat about what's working, what's not, and
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: what we need to be doing in our families if
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  Speaker 1: we're not quite satisfied with the current situation in terms
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: of children under sixteen supposedly not having access to social media,
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  Speaker 1: but a lot of them still having access.
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  Speaker 2: One of your followers posted this online and it really
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: hit me hard. I said, this isn't about cutting kids
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  Speaker 2: off from their friends. It's about removing big tech algorithms
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  Speaker 2: from our children's brains.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love this. It's not like we're punishing kids
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  Speaker 1: saying that's it. Kids, you can't have this thing that
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  Speaker 1: everybody wants. You can't have this social media thing.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: So we're banning communication. We don't want you talking to people.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's literally. So here's what's fascinating. I've mentioned this
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  Speaker 1: on the pod last year, but it's just one of
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: those things that keeps recycling through my brain. Meta was
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: in court in the United States late last year and
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  Speaker 1: in an affidavit that they produced, they said that their
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: platforms Instagram and Facebook specifically, about ninety percent of content
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  Speaker 1: that's shared on those platforms is not shared, not communicated
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  Speaker 1: from me to you. That is from a person who
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: knows the people that they're communicating with. Overwhelmingly, everything that's
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: happening on those platforms now, at least ninety percent of
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: it is strangers communicating with strangers through short term TV,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: short term video, like really short short video content, short
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: TV content. So your point, extending on what that Facebook
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: follower said is, I just think really cuts to the chase,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: that really gets to the very core of what this
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  Speaker 1: is about. We are not banning that I'm saying, we
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: like it's me, the federal government, the Safety Commissioner is
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: not banning communication. In fact, we want kids to communicate.
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  Speaker 1: What is happening is that platforms now no longer have
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  Speaker 1: the opportunity to algorithmically hijack our children's neural architecture and
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: dope minergic systems to maximize time on screens.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: It's interesting to me, just as you were talking, I
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: had this image when COVID hit. You know, the world
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: was like shut down, right, We didn't have access to
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: the face to face relationships that we would celebrate and enjoy,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: and the world had a meltdown, like they really really struggled.
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  Speaker 2: It's almost like we were given this gift to remind
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  Speaker 2: us how important face to face communication is, and we
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: promised we'd never go back.
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  Speaker 1: I'm never going to go back to how it was, and.
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  Speaker 2: But that's exactly what we've done.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about the band itself. It was
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: never going to be clean, and it was never going
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  Speaker 1: to be immediate, and something that is often missed in
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: dialogue around this, and I've done a number of media
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  Speaker 1: interviews just in the last few weeks about this. The
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  Speaker 1: platforms were ideally going to be up and running straight away.
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  Speaker 1: But nobody that I spoke to with any quote unquote
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  Speaker 1: power here, the people who were right behind everything, Nobody
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  Speaker 1: expected that everything was going to be smooth sailing from
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  Speaker 1: day one. They've got to get through this messy phase.
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  Speaker 1: And I think what we really want to be doing
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  Speaker 1: is judging this in let's say twelve months, rather than
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: its twelve weeks. We're literally like, what is it. It's
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: a third of feb We're not even two months into
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: the legislation rolling out. When you think about we were alive.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Believe it or not, we were alive when the seat
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: belt legislation rolled out. People didn't instantly start wearing their
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: seat belts perfectly on day one in the nineteen seventies,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: when it became the law that you have to wear
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  Speaker 1: a seat belt, it took time for people to get
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: their head around it and start doing it.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Well, take it down a notch, just to personal, you know,
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  Speaker 2: kind of life. You decide you're going to make a
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: change in your everyday.
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  Speaker 1: Life New Year's resolutions.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and day one, day two, day three, you're doing amazing, right,
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  Speaker 2: and then you have a slip back. Right, Like if
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: we judge something on a day to day basis, we
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: actually don't see the full picture because we've got such
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: a narrow view with which we're looking at things.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the metaphor only holds a little bit because, like
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  Speaker 1: we start our New Year's resolutions with a lot of enthusiasm,
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  Speaker 1: the big tech platforms did not start this with a
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  Speaker 1: lot of enthusiasm. But anyway, let's have a chat about
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: how it's all going. Huh.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I guess let's start with where we're winning.
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  Speaker 1: There was a press release that just came out maybe
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  Speaker 1: two weeks ago. Meta has closed over five hundred thousand
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  Speaker 1: accounts belonging to children. So their press release says, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, that's half a million Australian kids that are
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  Speaker 1: no longer using our platform. So that's their press release saying,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: look at how good we are. I would argue that
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  Speaker 1: that's probably not what it means.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about to say, so right, nice, I've
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  Speaker 3: been because I've had lots of conversations with people whose
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: children got booted, got booted and they just replaced.
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  Speaker 1: Their accounts, signed up for a new account and lied
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. So, but it is a win because
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  Speaker 1: there's half a million kids accounts that have been closed down.
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  Speaker 1: The other thing that has struck me, I've had a
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  Speaker 1: handful of conversations with parents who are reporting genuine, real relief,
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  Speaker 1: Like they're saying, the kids are happier, they're more active,
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  Speaker 1: they're outside, they're less anxious, they're feeling free from their screen,
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  Speaker 1: and I think that's a huge win. And a couple
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  Speaker 1: of parents have also said to me. In fact, I
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: did a podcast interview the other day and the dad said,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I know what I went through. He's a parent who
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: was born in the late nineties, so now he's got
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: his first child and he's saying, I know what I
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  Speaker 1: went through, being one of those first generations to really
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  Speaker 1: have a whole lot of access to these platforms. Don't
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  Speaker 1: want my kids having access to it. And I think
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  Speaker 1: that we're seeing a cultural shift where it is going
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  Speaker 1: to be increasingly weird for younger children and tweens and
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  Speaker 1: even younger teens to have access to things like Instagram.
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  Speaker 1: It's becoming not normal, which is what we want, right
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: in the same way that wearing seatbelts is normal and
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: not wearing one is not normal. That's good news, and
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  Speaker 1: the platforms are at least trying to. I mean, I
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  Speaker 1: got a press release from Roadblocks the other day. They're
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  Speaker 1: not even included in the social media band, but platforms
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  Speaker 1: seem to be taking increasing amounts of responsibility instead of
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: hiding behind while it's just up to the parents. So
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  Speaker 1: that's where we're winning. That's my brief summary of that.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I think that's kind of good news.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess there's got to counter it with the
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  Speaker 2: ways in which we're kind of losing here.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to go through my list of where
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  Speaker 1: we're losing pretty quickly because I want to talk about
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  Speaker 1: what to do, and the clock's ticking. So the first
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  Speaker 1: thing is this, we're losing because kids are migrating platforms.
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  Speaker 1: So they're leaving these major social media platforms and heading
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  Speaker 1: to discord and a whole lot of other smaller apps
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  Speaker 1: and going into gaming spaces. But as I was making
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  Speaker 1: this list, I paused and thought themselves, well, hang on
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  Speaker 1: just a sec. The goal here is not to stop
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  Speaker 1: kids communicating. The goal here is to put them into
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  Speaker 1: spaces where big tech can't get access to them with
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  Speaker 1: the algorithms, and keep on feeding them endless scrolling content.
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  Speaker 1: So if they're messaging friends, if they're collaborating in games,
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  Speaker 1: if they're not going through this infinite scroll, the infinite feed,
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  Speaker 1: I don't think that's actually bad. So even if they
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  Speaker 1: are migrating to other platforms, they're going to places like
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  Speaker 1: WhatsApp where there is no algorithm, the algorithm isn't manipulating,
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  Speaker 1: so that might be fine. There is a risk, of course,
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  Speaker 1: some of them are going to platforms where there's less moderation.
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  Speaker 1: There could be more predation because we haven't educated them
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  Speaker 1: about why the big platform was a harmful. Other losses,
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  Speaker 1: parents are signing kids up for new accounts with fake ages.
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  Speaker 1: I have heard so many kids talking about how their
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: parents just sign them up for a new account. One
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  Speaker 1: word to every parent who's listening who might have done that. Stop, honestly,
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  Speaker 1: just stop. You are literally undermining your child's well being,
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  Speaker 1: and you're also teaching your kids that the law doesn't matter.
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  Speaker 1: I just stop. Other losses kids along about their ages.
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  Speaker 1: They're signing up for accounts using VPNs to fake the location,
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  Speaker 1: although apparently the tech is doing a half decent job
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  Speaker 1: of identifying that. And there's a whole lot of kids
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  Speaker 1: that haven't been removed at all, our daughter being one
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  Speaker 1: of them. So that's the challenge.
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  Speaker 2: I guess when we look at the bigger picture, this
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  Speaker 2: actually feels like this is more a parent problem than
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  Speaker 2: it is a kid problem.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that part is for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, kids are going to push the boundaries, are going
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  Speaker 2: to test. That's normal. But parents actively helping them circumvent
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: the protection that's on offer that I think that's a
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: real issue.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, I totally agree with you on that.
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  Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to look at the three
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  Speaker 1: most valuable things we can do right now as parents
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  Speaker 1: if we really want to help our kids to navigate
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  Speaker 1: this social media minim makes legislation effectively. Stay with this.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: We're back. This is the Happy Families podcast.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: You said that you had three things you wanted to
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: walk us through navigating this period of change. Let's just
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: say you've got a kid they're really reluctant to give
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: it up. We might have one of those no idea.
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  Speaker 1: What you're talking about?
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: What are we supposed to do?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: All right? First off, we've got to have the y conversation.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Don't just say it's the law or social media as
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: battle because I said so, because I'm the parent that
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: doesn't work. I've said this a bajillion million, gazillion times.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: If you've read my books, this is the stuff where
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: we explore, we don't explode. It's where we get curious,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: not furious. It's where we provide a really clear rationale,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: where we step the through so that kids will buy
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: the why. You want to explain things like these platforms
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: are making money by keeping you scrolling. They use algorithms
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: that are designed to show you content that makes you
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  Speaker 1: feel something. Usually it's something to make you feel inadequate
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: or angry or envious, because that is the content that
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: keeps you compelled to be there. And also really remind
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: them we're not banning your friendships. We're protecting you from
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: big tech systems that are designed to manipulate your brain
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: and hijack your brain and stop you from doing the
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: deep inner work and using the parts of the brain
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that are important. Right, Like, we're just this is about
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: you being healthier and happier.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: And I guess it's about making them smarter consumers instead
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: of just compliant rule.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Followers, right. Love. That second thing that I would say
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: is we've got to offer real alternatives, right because nature
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: abhors a vacuum. So I made a big deal about
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: last year the three most important woods. You can say
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: to your kids just go outside, And I stand by that,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: but it's also a little bit glib and it's not
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: really helpful if you are a parent who is struggling
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: and going well, that's not really working.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: So especially right now. Do you know how humid it
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: is out there?
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Well it is in Queensland. Yeah, we have. We have
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: bought a landline for our daughter. So if your children
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: want to talk to friends, give them a phone that
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: texts and calls but doesn't have a camera, or they
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: can't send images, or one of my staff members has
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: just bought the GM phone. Again not sponsored. I don't
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: get any kickbacks for talking about the phone. But it's
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: a phone where parental controls are really really effective, and
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: your kids can have a phone in a way that
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: you can feel good about. If they want to play
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: games with friends, get games that aren't massive multiplayer online games.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Get games we actually have to buy the game and
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: then they have to sit there playing on the console
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: in your living room on the TV, but it's not
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: connected to the internet. Those are the games where there's
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: fewer of the negatives associated with it.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: They're feeling disconnected. Play day, you organize a hangout.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: That's the face to face stuff.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: And the third thing, and this I think is maybe
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: the most important all is model what you're asking. So
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: if you, as a parent, are laying on the bed
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: and scrolling Instagram for what was supposed to be thirty
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: seconds but it ended up being thirty minutes, stop because
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: you're sending a really clear message and you're not sending
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the message on the phone. You're sending the message to
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the eyeballs of your child who is watching you do it.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: If you're complaining about the band and your doom scrolling yourself,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: your kids are going to notice. So if you want
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: them off screens, create not a screen based childhood, but
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: a play based children and show them what an adult,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: play based childhood looks like like. Life is not supposed
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: to be phone dependent.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: We're a few weeks in now New Year's has come
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and gone, and I made a really conscious effort this
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: year to make some changes. I removed all of the
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: games off my phone. I taken social media off my
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: phone woo, and it literally is a communication device for
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: a navigation tool. And what was really curious was our
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: younger daughter needed to talk to somebody and the number
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: was on my phone, and so she asked if she
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: could FaceTime her friend and I said that that was fine.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: And after she'd finished, I kind of was looking for
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: my phone and I said, what have you done with it?
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: And she said, I put it back in the office
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: because I've made a conscious decision that it's going to
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: charge in the office. And it's out of my bedroom,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: it's out of our living space. There's no primer for
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: me to pick it up, and she's already picked that
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: up and it's just gone straight back there.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Great story. The ban, the social media minimum age legislation,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: let's call it what it is. Is not perfect. It
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: is very messy. It's being tested in the courts, but
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I read it right now and kids are clearly finding workarounds.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: But you know what it's done. It's changed the default
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: for the first time, Big tech has to justify why
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: children should be on their platforms and rather than parents
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: justifying to their kids why they shouldn't be on the platforms.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And to me, that's progress.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Of course, we've got to do the hard work. We've
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: got to teach our kids why these platforms it is
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: on to harm them and give them better ways to connect.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: But I think that we're on the road to that.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: There's the update. We hope that that's useful, and we
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: hope that those three ideas are hand is well. Check
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: the show notes if you'd like more, and we are
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: going to put together a blog and stick it on
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: the website to give you more information about the stuff
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: we've talked about today. Hopefully that's going to be helpful.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammond provides research, admin and all of
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: our other support and for more information. To make your
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: family happier, visit us at happy families dot com dot
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: a u