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An Interview with Jeff "JN" Chaney · This Dad Reads

• Jason: Today I'm chatting with a USA Today bestselling author who's the mind behind the massive Renegade Star Universe and co-author of sci-fi series like Wayward Galaxy, Sentence to War, and Backyard Starship, with an MFA in creative writing and dozens of science fiction series to his name. He's built an impressive catalog of intergalactic adventures. It's Jeff JN Cheney. Welcome to the show, Jeff. Jeff: Thanks for having me. Jason: You bet. I'm so glad to have another author here. I love talking to authors. Jeff: Yeah. we're we're not so much I think well some some are, but most of us aren't really keen on public outings and interviews and so please excuse me if I if I don't exude I don't know, ex you know, I don't know, not excitement's the wrong word, but I'm you know, I'm I'm used to just being in my office working all day. So you know, I don't if I have that energy. I if I can match your energy. But I'll do my best. Jason: it's all good. This is just this is just a conversation. So we just I basically just get on and have nerd nerd chats with people. So if you're a fellow reader, if you're a lover of nerdy things, I think I think we'll be fine. I also want to say you are Jeff: Absolutely. Jason: you are a fellow dad. This is this dad reads. This channel's all about just sharing nerdy passions with people who might be in a certain phase of life. So how how many kids do you have? Jeff: I just have the one and he's more than enough. he's two and a half, so he's Jason: Okay, okay. Jeff: a toddler. He's at that like the worst possible. He's also one of the best ages, I guess. I mean, it's that's all I know so far. 'cause I don't have any other kids. But man, just yesterday, I'm sure y you know, most dads have experienced this. You go to the ER a lot, and our kid has a peanut allergy, so he's been to the ER a couple of times. Jason: no. Jeff: And then yesterday we took him in. And we ended up getting bounced around from multiple different wings of the hospital. So we were there for eight hours. So if Jason: No Jeff: I'm a little tired today, that's that's what it is. he has the flu, but there's like a weird side effect with it where he loses like I guess this happens to toddlers, they lose like muscle control in their legs sometimes if they get the flu. And so he was having a hard time walking around. So we were like, well, something's going on. We took him in and that's that was a diagnosis. They ran, hospitals, they run a billion tests just to tell you your kid's got the flu. But it's better to be safe than sorry. Jason: That's funny that you say that because one of my coworkers, her son, every time he gets a flu, that happens to him, his legs just like he can't walk. And he's like eleven now. So I'd never heard of that. Jeff: wow. Jason: That's never happened to my kids. So there's always something, Jeff: Yeah. Jason: right? And especially at that age, having sick kids is the worst no matter what age they get, because It's just terrible. you it's terrible. So I'm sorry to hear that. Jeff: Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's crazy. but you know, i I think we were able to tell because he's like the most high energy kid you've ever seen. He's like obsessed with basketball and Jason: Okay. Jeff: just runs around the house with a ball, constantly like trying to get it in the hoop and you know, I I don't know where he gets that from 'cause I'm not into sports. My wife's not into sports, so it's very strange. But yeah, when he when he got really lethargic the other day, we were like, Well, that's strange. something must be going on and he doesn't really complain a lot about, you know, if he doesn't feel good, unless it's really bad. So he was just kind of taking it, you know. And he had a slight s sniffly nose and that was about it. but now it turns out yeah, he's got the flu. But you know, he's doing a lot better today, so yeah. Jason: Okay, good. Good to hear. Good to hear. Well, outside of that, in terms of fatherhood, parenthood, are you at the are you guys at any phase where you're like trying to introduce any of your like nerdy stuff to yet? Like for my kids, even at the youngest age, like any of their board books are already like Star Wars, Nerdy, Lord of the like they knew everything. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like you have an obligation to brainwash your kids from a young age to Jason: Yes. Jeff: dumb shit. sorry, part part of my language. I don't know, I don't know how that flies here. okay, okay. yeah, Jason: No, you can curse, it's fine. Jeff: so my my kid, he really likes He-Man, which is awesome. 'cause I Jason: Okay, okay. Jeff: I was a big He-Man kid. And actually have a little statue up here on my shelf from the original show. But He's got a couple of those golden books, you know, from Star Wars, Star Trek, He Man. He knows, you know, he knows what this is. He knows to say live long and prosper. My wife got somebody, I don't know, I can't remember who it was. I think it was Matt Goodwin. He's one of my co authors, got him a little golden book about how to speak Klingon. And so he knows like a couple of Klingon words, you know, he knows like Gok. and kapla and stuff like that. So no he's a he's a good kid and Jason: Excellent. Jeff: kinda and kinda nerdy. he he loves popsicles and he'll hold up his popsicle above his head and say I have the power which is pretty funny and he does it Jason: Yes. Yes. Jeff: a lot so anytime he gets a popsicle he does that. So if you Jason: Good. Well you're doing it right in my book. Jeff: Yeah, if you stock my Facebook, my personal page, you'll you'll occasionally see a video of him doing something like that. So anyway, yeah. Jason: Okay, there you go. Yeah. Jeff: I never thought I'd be that guy that posts about his kid all the time, but yeah, here we are. Jason: It just happens, right? same thing. Before we had kids, I was like, people post about their kids a lot. But I'm like, wait, it something changes in you. Like a lot of stuff changes. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, some changes in here. Jason: A lot of stuff changes for sure. But yeah. Jeff: Yeah. Jason: I'm like twelve years in. My oldest is twelve and my youngest is nine. So my days of influencing, they they still love all my nerdy stuff and they still love to engage with it. But what I the challenge I'm facing right now, and maybe I'll get there someday, is that I give them new books or I'll get them new books to read, but they just want to read the stuff that they like, which is fine. As long as they're reading, they love to read the readers. But my daughter's reading this graphic novel over and over. And I'm like, there's more out there. Come on. there's really anyway, so that's my that's my current struggle. Jeff: Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, we you know, he's too young to start on comic books or anything, but I've got like a th this whole you can see here, this Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: shelf that's all comic books. And so I'm very excited to like introduce him to X-Men, Batman, you know, Spider-Man stuff. Jason: man, yes, this year is the year I finally been my son's been chomping at the bit to watch the Marvel movies like MCU. and Jeff: Mm, yeah. Jason: so we finally did it and he we're so stoked for Doomsday. So it it'll it's so much fun when you get there. And it's fun to do it and you know, in the build up to it too. But I just feel like hitting that twelve marker like really as at least for I'm like, this is a lot more fun now. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, because you think back to when you were a kid and what you were into at that age. And I was obsessed with the X-Men nineties cartoon. Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: I you know, I would watch like the Spider-Man cartoons. The like the the one from the I think it was like the 70s. I would watch Jason: Okay. Jeff: that. Yeah. And and then the one from the nineties too. Like that was the that's Jason: Yeah. Jeff: I think still the like the definitive version. you know, and I I'm excited for him to get to that age where I can kind of reintroduce all this to him. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: they just don't seem to be making shows anymore for that age demographic at the rate that they used to. I mean, occasionally you'll see something, but like X-Men 97, I really like it's really good, but it's a sequel to the original show and it's geared more towards people our age. Jason: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: than it is to eight year olds and ten year olds like the original show was. So I I'm like, I I don't wanna show that, 'cause people die in it and it it's it's good, but it's it's just too mature. but yeah, I don't know. They don't have like anything age appropriate, it seems like, these days for kids. So I mean maybe I Yeah, yeah, or it's really bad. Jason: Well yeah, or or the age appropriate stuff is terrible. so bad. Jeff: yeah, so you might you're better off just showing the old stuff. yeah. Jason: That's exactly that's what I say, that's what I do. And Batman the animated series was huge for me at like it's like a ten year Jeff: yeah. Jason: old s gold standard, still my favorite Batman ever. So yeah. Jeff: Yeah, the whole the whole DCCU, or whatever they called it, the the DC animated universe. you Jason: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: know, static shock, Batman, the animated series, Batman the New Adventures, Superman the Animated Jason: Yep. Jeff: Series, Batman Beyond, I really liked. all that stuff. Justice League. I can't wait to show them all that. Jason: For sure, for sure. And I will say, a good way to do that when they're before they're ready age wise is like I would give my kids he would just go through some of the graphic novels and just look at them. And like even when he could some of them are kind of violent, but the a the adventury ones are a little bit more like aimed towards younger readers. So there's some good on ramps there. So Jeff: Yeah, yeah. It's funny though, because if you're a parent that doesn't know comic books and but your kid is into it, and I I have a friend. Yeah, I have a friend, and yeah, exactly. I have a I have Jason: it can get dangerous. Jeff: a friend who who doesn't read, he's never read comic books, right? And he he only ever watched like the X-Men cartoons. but and he and he's really into the MCU and everything, but his wife took their three and a half year old to the library and this kid goes to I just think he just wandered off and he found a comic book and it had a Marvel like spine Marvel on the spine but you know he can't really read he doesn't he didn't know what it was and it was Ender's game and the comic book right so or the graphic novel I guess Jason: Uh-huh. Okay, yeah. Jeff: so she she messages me she's like look it's that book you like they made a comic book I'm like yeah she's like my my kid he brought it to me, he wants to read it, or he wants me to read it to him. And I said, Don't read that to She's like, Well, what Yeah, yeah, Jason: Yeah, probably not appropriate. Jeff: yeah. But he he just knows Marvel, right? So he just saw like the Jason: Yeah, right, right. Jeff: the logo and assumed Spider Man, you know, all that stuff. So I'm like, No. there's like genocide and some adult themes. Jason: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: And she's like, Well, it's gotta be okay, right? It's Marvel. And I'm like, No, no, no. That's not what that means. Marvel does not instantly mean safe for kids. yeah, in general. Yeah. Like there's a big Jason: Or comic books in general, Yeah. Yeah. Jeff: difference between Superman and Batman. And there's a d big difference between Spider Man and you know, some of the newer X Men stuff. So you Jason: Right. Jeff: just you gotta be a little careful there. But you know, she doesn't know. So Jason: Sure. Jeff: good luckily she she knows somebody that actually does read comic books and can and can ask So I would advise people if you don't, don't just let Jason: There you go. Jeff: your kids read comic books for the sake of it. Jason: Might I recommend Dogman? Dave Pilke. Very appropriate. Yeah. There you go. Good. Jeff: Yeah, yeah. That's what I told her. That's what I told her. I said, Yeah, yeah, check out Dogman. and they have Spider Man for kids. he's three and a half. he doesn't be reading stuff for ten year olds. Yeah. Jason: Yeah. No. Even some of the Spider Man titles, they're violent. some of the Jeff: yeah. Jason: adult they're adult titles. They're not kids titles, Jeff: There there's a scene with superior Spider-Man, when Doc Ock takes over Spider-Man's body for Jason: Mm. Jeff: a long time. there's like a whole run of that. And he punches, I think it's Scorpion. He punches him so hard that his jaw breaks off. And he realizes that, Peter Parker's been holding back this entire time when he fights people. And that's when he gets like a real sense of Spider-Man's real strength. But like he It shows the jaw coming off and I'm like, Jason: Yeah. Jeff: this Spider Man, it's not supposed be that violent, but it still gets violent. I mean, Carnage Jason: Yeah. Yeah. It Jeff: is from Spider Man, he's a serial killer, so Jason: True. Even some of the stuff, I don't know if you keep up with MCU, but the new Vision Quest show just came out. And basically anything that comes out now, I'll let my twelve year old watch. Most stuff's like PG thirteen ish. But even this show, it's like there's some violence in it. And I was watching it before him and I was like, am I making the wrong choice here? But I I he's thankfully he's mature enough and you have to know your own kid, right? And know their boundaries. But Jeff: Yeah. Jason: but I'm like, this is getting a little getting a little out there. Jeff: Yeah, yeah. we watched the first episode of that and I know what you mean. Like we're we're sitting there watching it and like these guys, like this you know, I don't know, it's like SWAT team or something comes in and they all get mowed down and killed and everything and and I'm like, Man, it's pretty violent for for a Marvel show. But you know, it's cool. I like it, it's fine. Yeah. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And of course my son's like, I like it. It's cool. I'm like, that's the problem. Like I don't want you to like Yeah. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. and and you know, like people forget like Punisher is a Marvel character too, and and he's just Jason: yeah. Jeff: like, you know, I mean, technically like a serial killer, mass murderer. Yeah, yeah. So Jason: Serial killer shooting guns. Yeah. It it's intense. Jeff: he can't watch that. But yeah, Jason: Nope. Jeff: I think it's great. I think it's cool to see kids getting into into comic books. parents just you know, just we gotta make sure we're keeping up with it too. So Jason: A hundred percent. I'm gonna say it here because I've had this idea floating around forever and maybe I'll edit this out of the episode because it's a self promo. But I've been having this idea kicking around in my mind to create this nerdy parents field guide book, like putting together like by age range what might what might be like an appropriate like show to watch, books to read for stuff like your friend just said, and then having authors like you, having them like contribute kind of stuff from their childhood. So anyway, you're not you're making me want to go dust off that idea that I had at one point. Jeff: Yeah, there I don't remember what it's called, but it's like mom's it moms rate stuff or whatever. It's like a guide for moms on how Jason: Yeah. Jeff: to like what material's okay for kids at what ages and stuff. So it might be cool to see that from a dad's perspective. cartoons and shows and and comic books listed by age, you know, for for parents to follow. Stuff like Jason: Yeah, as their chur as their kids grow, Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuff what what we're talking about here, comic book, things that that maybe the that mom website might not necessarily cover. I have no idea if they do, but yeah. Jason: Y Yeah, forget those moms. We dads know what's up. Jeff: I feel like that would be useful for me, you know, as a as a new dad. Jason: Okay, well I'll I'll send you my manuscript. I'll send you the draft we'll go from there. Jeff: Yeah, for sure. Jason: Anyway, but I wanna go back into more about you and you obviously there's a passion for comics, but how about like books and like sci fi specifically? Like what were some of the books that really opened your eyes to that world and made you realize that it was something that you wanted to do? Jeff: Well, man, I guess it depends how far back you want to go. So I am from a really small town with a bad education system where you don't Jason: Okay. Jeff: really read. I mean, I had a friend who graduated from the same s high school without knowing where periods went, or how paragraphs worked. Like that's how bad the education system is in Avon Park, Florida. I think they were rated like a C minus, because that's how Florida grades their schools. So Jason: Wow. Jeff: pretty bad. but for a little bit when I was in middle school, I went to a a Christian school. and I went for like three years. they had a little room that was like a dedicated library room, and it was filled with all these books that I didn't want to read. And 'Cause most of you know, it's like most of them are religious books. And so, I I you know, looking back, I realized now I had like this hunger to read something and I was looking for that something without realizing it. And I and I was in the li I was just drawn to the library in that room a lot and I would go and I would just browse stuff and then one day I was in there and I found a book Think it was Prince Caspian Jason: Mm. Jeff: from The Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe. And I read that at the school. I read it in just a few sittings and was drawn in and fascinated by it because it was like, you know, it was a religious associated book, but it wasn't directly religious. And so that affiliation, it was kind of lost on me, like the the metaphors and all that stuff. I, you know, I must have been, I don't know, eleven years old. maybe twelve, it's like seventh grade or something. And so I just like got really immersed in that. And then I I didn't even know that there were all these other books in the series for the for the longest time. so I just read that one. And then later on I found the prequel book, The Magician's Nephew. And I read that and that became kind of my favorite in the series and and got really attached to to that story. so that was my first introduction to reading something on like the fantasy sci fi side. I guess, you know, it's it's really just fantasy portal fiction. But later on, I got pretty into video games and I would play things like RPGs, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, lots of reading in those. And I think I had to read one book in all of high school, which i yeah, is it it's called A Land Remembered. forget the author, but it's a big book about Florida. and that was the first book I read that I had a like an emotional response to. So that kind of got me more interested even more in reading years after I had read those Chronicles and Arnia books. And so then I I got to college well I think right before college and a friend of mine recommended I read Ender's Game because I was really into Halo. And he's like, if you like Halo's story and world, then Ender's game will really resonate with you because a lot of Halo's mythology and lore ha came from Ender's game as turn in terms of influence, which is true. The Fall of Reach, which is the the prequel book about Halo, a lot of that is pulled from Ender's game. So I went and I read it and I got so into that book. I think I read it like three or four times, just back to back to back. You know, and from a for a small town kid that had barely done much reading, you know, for me to get drawn into something like that was very rare. And so I latched onto that book and then I couldn't stop. I was like, I need to read more sci-fi. And so I read the sequels. I went, I read some, you know, Ray Bradbury, Arthur C. Clark, Heinlein, Asimov. You I I read all the greats, as it were, and then I got into more Orson Sky card books, and just couldn't couldn't put them down. I I built up like this little library. in my little apartment my first year of college of just paperbacks that were all sci-fi. I think I had like three shelves or something. And I would get them on sale, you know, wherever I could. So some of those had been just destroyed. They were missing the cover. but I was reading and reading and reading. And then finally, while this was all happening, right, I was writing fan fiction on the internet. my first fan fiction story was about Zelda, the legend of Zelda. And Jason: Awesome. Jeff: Yeah, and that that's kind of where I started writing, where I was showing it to other people. But my first story ever was something when I was fifteen I wrote on a a yellow legal pad. Like before I had ever read like a science fiction story, I wrote a f a story about finding a spaceship in my backyard. And that's where like the initial idea for Backyard Starship came from. and that blended with a d a different idea. but I had written that at fifteen, showed it to my mom, and was too scared to show it to anybody else. I think I wrote like twenty eight pages or something by hand. And Jason: Wow. Jeff: yeah. and it was terrible. I think I found it years later while I was in school for writing, like when I was twenty one or something, and I was like, my God, this is so bad. but you know, that's kind of where the The spark in writing originated. And that only happened because a friend from high school came over one day and showed me his story that he had written in math class. And I don't know why it never occurred to me before that, but when I was reading his little, it was like half a page or something. I realized, and I'll never forget that feeling, but I realized, you can just make stuff up and write it down. What a concept. Jason: Ha ha ha. Jeff: you know how how teenage brains work. And so I just sat down that that night and started writing. And I I was like writing wish fulfillment adventure pulp without realizing it. And here we are, like I don't know, 25 years later, 27 years later, and I'm still doing it. So it's crazy. Jason: That's awesome. That's such a inspirational story because I don't know if you've thought about this as much because but that just shows you that all it takes is a little bit of exposure and a little bit of encouragement. I I hope your mom encouraged you. I don't want to assume that she did. But I'm like, that's all it takes, Jeff: absolutely. Yeah. It's funny, you know, look Jason: right? Jeff: Yeah, it's all it takes. I mean, I look back on that and I remember the moment I showed it to her and you know, our our memories aren't perfect, so I'm sure I i the details are wrong. But like I remember sitting there in our in our little house and I'm like, Look what I did. And she had already written a book, you know, when I was a kid. and it was a r like I think it was a romance novel. it never got published. And she never did anything with it, but she wrote it on an old typewriter. And so I didn't realize it at the time, because when you're a kid, you're not really paying much attention to stuff like that. But I have to imagine from her perspective, seeing your kid do the thing that you're also passionate about has to be pretty exciting. because I know if my kid did that and he brought me, look, I I'm writing this book. Without even knowing that I had done the same thing, I would feel like, wow, there's something in the genes, I guess. I mean, she's sh Jason: Exactly. Exactly. Jeff: at at this point, she's written like 10 books. She's published a few of them. I've helped her with that. And and she's improved a lot since, you know, I mean, that was like 30 plus years ago when she first wrote that book. But I gave her that that yellow legal pad and she read the whole thing in one sitting and she looked at me and said, this is incredible. What made you do this? And I said, I don't know, I just wanted to. And she was like, This is really good. You should keep writing the story. and anytime I would show her anything, she would always say that. She just keep keep going, keep going, keep going. This is great, this is great, this is great. And it wasn't, it was all terrible. but she was a good liar. And so, you know, I felt super encouraged to keep going. And and then eventually I got to college and originally I think my my major was criminal justice or criminology, I think. I was gonna try to be in in the FBI or something. I had spent multiple summers in high school internationally. I lived in China for a semester. I lived in Russia for two summers. I used to go to this thing called a language camp where they would teach you a language, it was this Concordia Language Village, I think was the company. And I spent three summers doing that. And it was my whole goal. I was like, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be in the CIA or the FBI. Like that was my my my dream when I was like 13. and so I got to college, I was majoring in criminology and and I I was studying all these languages and I realized I didn't really want to do that. and I had been writing that fan fiction on the internet for years at that point, just publishing every week fan fiction. and eventually my own stories. And I was getting like such positive feedback from people that it was like the only thing I really liked doing. And so one day I had to make a decision of like what I was gonna really do. Cause I think I I had I had chosen criminology, but I hadn't declared it yet. Jason: Mm. Jeff: for whatever reason, I can't remember why, but I was sitting in a it was a weird phase at that point in my life. And so I had to make a choice. And I'm like, you know, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I wanna do something else. And so I thought like what's the only what what out of everything that I that I do in my life, out of all my interests, what's the one thing that you know I would want to do it as a career? And I chose writing and I was like, this is the only thing. I think I even went on the message boards that I used to post my stuff on and I asked everybody like, What should I do? And they were like, just do it. Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: Just do it. And so the people on online encouraged me to pursue that as a degree. And so I did. I asked my mom what she thought and she said I should do it. And then when it came time to declare my major, I chose creative writing. And then I got a master's in it and you know, here we are. So just been on that been on this path since I think I was like nineteen or twenty. Jason: That's awesome. And I would say too, in hearing that story, your mom wasn't lying. She wasn't she was telling you to go because you couldn't get where you were going unless you did unless you kept going, right? if you hadn't have kept doing that work, I don't think you probably would have gotten where you've gotten, without that encouragement. Cause she knows how much Jeff: yeah. Jason: time it takes to write. Cause you can't be a good writer unless you're writing all the time, right? So that's awesome that she encouraged you. And so that I mean. Jeff: Yeah. And I think anybody that pursues I have any writers during your audience, but I have to imagine there are several, probably a lot. And and one thing I think most people that pursue this professionally have experienced is discouragement. Most people in my life, over the years, when I was in the Air Force, all my supervisors, with the exception of a few would tell me, don't do that. that's a bad idea. Don't get out of the military to be a writer. That's a terrible idea. without ever looking at my work or you know, the fact that I was getting a master's degree in this, you know, mil I remember one guy was like, the military is the best job you're ever gonna get. You know, don't don't be a fool. And I'm like, no, I think I'm gonna be a fool. And so I got out and started this company and s published my first book. But people in various parts of my life, most of my jobs, whenever I would talk about this stuff, I would constantly get ridicule and discouragement. So it's a rare thing, especially with a parent, to get somebody in that position that understands. And Jason: Mm. Jeff: I think because my mom had a passion for writing, like, you know, she she really did understand. My dad didn't get it at all. he thought it was silly and weird. He gets it now, because I've made it work, but Jason: Right. Jeff: but for a long time he didn't understand it. He would say, like, everybody's trying to write a book. What makes you so special? but you know, people come around over time once they realize that that this is a real thing that you can do. And I think Amazon's made it more accessible. And I think the world at large, the internet age, all that stuff, our parents grew up in a time before all that and they didn't really get it. So you know, I do consider myself very lucky to have had someone early on, Jason: Mm. Jeff: when I wrote my first story who told me I could do it and was encouraging. Jason: so you you mentioned it, the like one of your earliest stories being the inspiration behind Backyard Starship. I have the hardcover right here. I read it recently and I've been partnering really closely with Aethon Vault recently. And there it's just one of the titles that when it came across my review option, I was like, this sounds like such an interesting, fun concept. So I want to hear more about the backstory about how this book actually came to be. And little did I know after I read this book, I'm like, I wonder if there's another one. There's p Jeff: Yeah. Jason: more than another one in this series. Jeff: Thirty f yeah, thirty-five just got back from beta readers. We we just wrapped that up. We're working on thirty-six now. it's gonna end at forty. So there is a there is an end in sight. we Yeah. Jason: So realistic for people. Jeff: we write it in arcs and phases, so you know i the you can jump off at various points and still feel like you got a complete story. I think the biggest one would be book twelve. At the end of book twenty-five, I wanna say, there's a big time jump of 10 years, Jason: Okay. Jeff: and then we start a new storyline that goes all the way to 40. So we've got four current spinoffs: Peacemaker Wars, the first Peacemaker, Blades in Time, and the Flying Gas Can. we've done most of them with co-authors. Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: So we brought in Aaron Bunce and Glenn Segwin, two fantastic writers, to help us flush those sides of the universe out. Now, before this, they were they were both editors and lore masters for this universe. So they're intimately familiar with the material and the s and the you know the original ideas and the characters and everything. but they sort of write in their own little corners, right? And Jason: Mm. Jeff: time periods and different things. So after the c main series is over, we're gonna write a sequel series that jumps ahead a thousand years and follows what you know the title's The Last Peacemaker. So it's gonna follow the the final remnants of the current story, without giving anything away. I don't want to spoil anything, but we're very excited about that. And we also have an Icky and Funboy spin-off book that's just a standalone, and then we have a bunch of short stories that talk they're all little origin stories for different characters. So it's a pretty expansive universe. I think when it's all done, it's probably gonna be close to 80 to 90 books, roughly, somewhere in there. But if you just want to stick to the main series, that's gonna be 40 books. And like I said, we have jumping off points if you don't want to keep going. To answer your question though, so the original idea, I had written that story when I was 15. So it was always in the back of my mind. but obviously I don't want to write a book about me and my friends finding a spaceship in my backyard. Like that's not really gonna work for a publishable book. So I didn't really come at this for a long time until I finally got like a real idea, a real hook. And that came when the pandemic started. I was playing a game called Stardew Valley, which is a farming game, for those who don't know. You inherit it's it's heavily inspired by old Harvest Moon games from back Jason: Mm. Jeff: in the day. and I grew up on Harvest Moon, playing those a lot. The original one was on the Super Nintendo. And believe there was one on every console after that, sometimes more. And so I think the one I I put the most hours into was the one on the PlayStation. and the N64. And so the idea, the premise behind both Stardew Valley, which is what I was playing when I came up with this, and Harvest Moon is that you build a farm and you know you date Townspeople, you get to know everybody, you form relationships. you go into the mines and fight and dig up artifacts. The main primary focus is the farm. well, you inherit the farm from your grandfather, who has mysteriously died or whatever. Jason: Mm. Jeff: and so when you inherit the farm, you get all the land and it's overrun and you have to build it back up. Well, I was playing this game and I thought. randomly, wouldn't it be fun if this happened? but there was like a spaceship in the barn or something. And that's where Backyard Starship really originated from. Was that that idea? and when I when that idea gestated I realized maybe I've got something here. I need to find a good co-author. Cause I was in the middle I think of writing like the last arc of Renegade Star And Terry was working on the Messenger series with me. I think he was on like book eleven, if I remember right. and so I didn't really want to bring on new co authors. And so I I thought like who would do a good job with this? And I looked around, I think I approached one person and they declined, which I'm sure they regret now. but But they declined at the time because they wanted to go off and do something else. And so I sat on the idea. I mean, for like two years, basically. or like I think it was about a year. And then Terry he finished he finished up the messenger. I think he was like a book or two away from the end. And I said, hey man. I've got this idea. Are you interested? And he immediately was like, Absolutely yes. cause he's very he gets so excited about ideas. He g he's very passionate about books and and coming up with stories and characters and everything. So you talk to Terry, man, you'll you'll walk out high as a kite. I I'm really chill and subdued and everything. And and Terry's like, he's just at an eleven all the time. I I tell him all the time, like, man, you could be a game show host. You Jason: Yeah. Jeff: got that kind of energy. You remember Doubledare? You remember that show? Yeah, he's got Jason: my gosh, yes. Love that show. Jeff: that energy, man. It's awesome. Jason: Love it. Jeff: so you put him out in front of people at a book show, he'll sell a hundred books. It's crazy. Jason: There we go. Jeff: so so you know, we were we were talking about it and he's like, yeah, this is gonna be great. and I pitched it as like my backyard spaceship series, right? Like this Jason: Mm. Jeff: is gonna be 'cause this is that's what I was calling the trope at the time was like a backyard spaceship. Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: not a lot of people had really done the found starship. Concept in a popular way that had really taken off. So I had no idea if this was actually gonna sell. Like I had a gut instinct that it would, but you know, it's always a gamble when you put these things out. And so I talked to him about it, and I think it was the first or second conversation. He told me, he's like, I I had told him where the idea came from. I was like, Yeah, when I was 15, I wrote the story, and he's like, my god, Jeff, I I did the same thing. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, the first story I ever wrote. I found a yeah, it's about a character finding a spaceship. And I'm like, no way. What what are the chances, you know? Jason: Whoa. Meant to be, yeah. Jeff: meant to be, right. Yeah. So we we w we would have these phone I mean, we talked I mean, I talked I used to talk Terry like almost every day on the phone. now we talk about once a week. And 'cause I have a kid, you know, and he's he's on the road doing this book tour and So we just don't talk as much, but we still make the time, or we still take the time. but back then it was all just ideas, ideas, ideas all the time, every day, talking about he'd wake up in the middle of the night, it'd be three in the morning, I'd be getting a Slack message, and and it's like I had this, you know, I had to write it down, whatever. so when we were coming up with this book and this this series, like it was all just ideas constantly. like a waterfall. So one day, I guess he was walking around some kind of old town or main street or something, and he found an antique shop, and he went into the antique shop, and there was like this bird statue. and he got really fascinated with this bird for some reason, because Terry's a weird guy, but What I like about him is that he's eccentric and eccentricity often leads to good ideas. and our our relationship works really well because he is very much an idea person. And he comes up with ideas that sound insane, but when applied to a good story, work really well. And so oftentimes my job is to direct him on where to go Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: with it and and like say yes or no or you know brainstorm stuff with him. And that's why our relationships work so well creatively. that's kind of what you need in a collaboration sorry, collaboration. You need two people whose brains Are on the same wavelength where it matters, but are on different tracks at the same time. And I think Terry, he comes up with ideas that just never would have occurred to me. Right. I can look at something like Backyard and I can say, I think this is gonna do really well in the market. I think that people want this, there's not enough of it. and that's what we're constantly doing over at Variant. That's my the publisher I founded 12 years ago. And I work with all these co-authors. And a big part of my job is just what do people want to read? not necessarily what do you want to write to Jason: Mm. Jeff: the co-author or what do I want to write, but what do you want to write that's gonna sell and do well with the audience? And then finding a balance of that of what you're passionate about and what readers will wanna read. And so, you know, we'll come up with three to five different series ideas. that this author will be really interested in. and then we'll sort of whittle it down to one based on where we think readers will, you know, how many how many readers there are that will actually want to receive that. So with Backyard, that's kind of what we did. but from the get go, it was just sort of like, here's something I really think and I I believe in and I think will do well. And so when Terry went into that antique shop, he came out of it like, I want to put a metal bird in the book. And my first reaction was like, What are you talking about? Like, that sounds Yeah, it sounds insane. Jason: I don't even understand what you're saying. Jeff: Like, what are you talking about? And he's like, Well, it it's a bird that would fight and it'd be like an AI campaign. We at the time we were doing like AI campaigns were a big thing and sci-fi and We all really like writing them and they're really fun and you can do a lot with them that you can't do with a regular character. And so he was like, This'll be our take in this series on an AI companion, like a physical AI that can interact and do things. but not an Android, you know, like you'd see an alien or whatever, or Blade Runner or anything like that, but something different. And I said, Well, this is certainly different. but I'm gonna trust your instincts, Terry. Let's let's let's see where it goes. And so he started writing Perry and and as it developed, you know, I could clearly see the potential. And Terry instantly became like a fan favorite. and same thing with like Icky and Funboy and all these different characters, to the point where we were getting just reactions in the group and you know, 'cause we have a Facebook group with all these fans. And people would start quoting and making memes and stuff of these characters, more than the main character. And I'm like, well that's you know, that's how like you've really struck something here. and so we kinda leaned into that for the sequels and we would just try to come up with more and more characters. And that that were just unique and weird and like really alien, but in a fun way, not in a scary way. And so over time, the fandom just built and built and built and built. the books came out, they took off. I think the first book. We had three books in the top one hundred at one point, early on, the first three books. and then they Jason: That's awesome. Jeff: continue to hit the top one hundred on Amazon for like, man, I think all the way up to like book twenty eight. And and now it's sort of like one twenty, one thirty, because we've had some drop off over the years, but still by far the most successful thing that Either of us has ever done. and that's why we've got the print run now. That's why we're going to Barnes Jason: Yeah. Jeff: and Noble's. I'll be there tomorrow signing books. And Terry's on the road right now doing a bunch of stops at different Barnes Noble. And we get interest all the time from you know agents and producers and stuff in Hollywood. Most of that goes nowhere. But if you'd have asked me When I was fifteen, if I thought that that little story would develop into this, I would have said that sounds crazy. But here we are. Jason: Here we are. Well, congrats, man. That is so cool. And I just want to hear a little bit more about like you were you so you've spent years already building a community, writing in this world. But I feel like sometimes going into retail, having your book be at a physical bookstore, for a lot of people that might seem like, now I've made it. I'm not gonna assume that's the case for you. But like, what does it feel like being able to kind of move into this kind of new Part of the story, if you will, of moving into physical. And does it feel like just another marked moment in your career? Does it feel how special does it feel to you? Jeff: it's it's definitely a special moment. I I can't really sit here and say that it doesn't feel good to finally have sort of that traditional recognition, I guess, of seeing your book in a store. But that's sort of just the beginning that process and that experience. Like I think people think if you get a book in a bookstore. Because I started out independent and I'm still mostly Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: independent. but I a lot of our stuff is mixed between Shred and Indie. Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: like most of our audio is traditionally published through like Audible Studios and Podium and Recorded Book, all these companies. but in terms of like I think paperbacks and hardcovers, this is the second time this has happened. The first one was Old Guns, which I did with Nicholas Sandsbury Smith. And that series was traditionally published by Podium, but it didn't really get the same level of distribution as Backyard. Jason: Okay. Jeff: and so like I think Old Guns is available in Barnes Nobles, but you'd have to go there and like physically like order it. And only a handful of copies went to stores for whatever reason. But Backyard, I mean, there's about a 50-50 shot. You go on a Barnes and Nobles, they're have copies. So I think we've got like seven Barnes Nobles here in maybe six in Orlando, and I think half of them had copies of it, which is pretty cool. Yeah. Jason: That's so cool. Yeah. Jeff: I did a signing at one, we sold like 30 copies, I think. But it's it seems to be that way, the same case across the country where most stores will get one to three copies. And I've Jason: Hm. Jeff: I'm constantly seeing pictures in the group, I'm getting emails of people saying like, I bought your book, found it, they'll send me a picture of it on the shelf, and that's amazing. I mean, that's a different level of I think broad appeal that in a different in a completely different market than I'm used to. But it's still, like I said, it's just the beginning. Because once you get a book in a store, you then have to continue to sell the book in the store. Otherwise Jason: Mm. Jeff: the store, in this case the chain will not carry it anymore if it doesn't sell. And so that's really where these signings come in. you Jason: Mm. Jeff: go on you go on a tour, and you sell as many copies as you can. Because if the author's there in person signing books, people are more likely to give it a shot, talk to, you know, the author. And and see what it's all about. And so if if you do that enough, then a chain like Barnes and Nobles will be more likely to do another run in the future. And Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: so, like, that's like getting it in the store is really just sort of the first step. And then the real work sets in after that. And and that's where I think most people kind of fall off of it because it is so much work to go out and do Jason: Mm. Jeff: this. Like Matt Dinneman, right? I'm sure people are familiar. Matt Zinneman's the guy that wrote Dungeon Crawler Carl. From what I've heard, he is doing 50 or 51 weeks on the road this year. Just Jason: Wild. Jeff: yeah, crazy, crazy amount of dedication. Like that, that guy's one of the hardest working authors, I think, in the industry, and one of the most successful for that reason. But his books are in just about every Barnes Nobles on the planet, and I think that's why that is the case. He's just constantly Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: going. Jason: And I I just from a reader's perspective, I've been a lifelong reader and I've been in this bookish reviewer space for, six years, making content, just talking about my love for books of all kinds. I feel like we're reaching like a time in culture that is it feels almost like a critical moment. I don't want to say apex because I don't want to I I can think things can always there's always room and space for more stories to grow. But it feels like at at culture right now that these out there stories and the people like us who are our age out there buying books and who are raising kids and being influential in our families are just looking for stories that are just fun and entertaining. And I I think that's a testament to the community that you've built and to the people that you, you know, the friends that you've made in this on this journey. And then it's so cool to know there's probably so many more out there who You don't even know. There's fans out there and friends that you haven't met yet that are not gonna read your book until they see it in a store and then join that community too. So I guess all that to say, what does the community part of it mean to you? I've talked to some I just talked to Seth Ring recently and he was like the lit RPG community progress, progression fantasy community is ever it's the best thing. So I wanna hear your take on that. Jeff: Yeah, so couple a couple of things there. number one, sci fi No, no, no. it's okay. Jason: Yeah, sorry, I rambled for a second. Jeff: let me dissect that a little bit. So number one, you mentioned LitRPG, right? So like that's a up and coming community. maybe not even really up and coming anymore. I think it's already here, but Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: I mean they have their own convention now. it's a huge genre with a lot of broad appeal. And That used to be the case for sci-fi. And what we're seeing now is sort of this shrinking of the genre, which is very disheartening. A lot of prominent sci fi authors have largely disappeared. the people that I grew up with are much older now and they're barely writing or they're gone. the people that I came into this industry with have left in Jason: Mm. Jeff: you know, l in large part. It's hard to find people that were writing independently 10 years ago that are still around. And if they are around, they're either writing far less or or they're the rare exception. which, you know, I I can't really nobody comes to mind really who's still prominent. But I think It is still one of those genres that over time will have cycles. It had cycles, going all the way back to the thirties, the fifties, the seventies, the eighties. I mean, we've seen it come up and down over time. And I think we're in sort of a lull period right now for the genre. That sort of happens in certain genres between big new innovative concepts, right? When Backyard Starship came out, it's just like other other big hits, there were a slew of copycats. And, you know, I don't really get mad about that. you really gotta take it as a compliment. but what I think it indicates, because you don't necessarily see it in every genre like that. And you really I haven't seen it like that in sci-fi in a long time, where just a bunch of books come out that are very, very similar. I think that happened in sci-fi because there just weren't a lot of new ideas coming out. Jason: Mm. Jeff: And I think when people see something that's successful, they want to make their own take on that. And I'm not even saying, like obviously back air is not the first found Starship story. There's they've been making found Starship stories for decades. I mean, Flight of the Navigator, that was in the eighties. Jason: Mm. Jeff: But our book came out and just kinda took off on the charts. And I think the title helps, 'cause it kinda summarizes really what it is. Jason: It's a great title. It's a great title. Jeff: Yeah, yeah. I mean it's I that was a complete accident. wasn't even planning to call it that. It's just we couldn't come up with a title and I'd c I'd kept calling it to Terry like, you know, let's write my backyard spaceship series. And he's like, Why don't we just Jason: Yeah. Jeff: call it backyard spaceship? And I'm like, Well, sure, you know, can't come up with can't find anything else. And then Jason: Ha ha ha. Jeff: I think he suggested we change spaceship to Starship and and it was perfect. It worked out great. But Jason: There you go. Jeff: Yeah, but I I think the genre hasn't had anything major in a in a couple of years now. that's come out and really broken through and lasted, you know, and sort of created a new subgenre or a new trope. sometimes I'll think it's happening, right? Like somebody'll write a book and I'm like, it's taking off, it's doing really well. But then that idea is so specific to Jason: Mm. Jeff: that story. That it's not something that can be like expanded upon over and over again. Like Jason: Okay. Jeff: we did a found Starship story, right? And then somebody comes out with a another found Starship story that's similar, but it's not the same thing. You know, it's it's not super derivative. It's it's not a copy. It's like it's different enough to where it is its own thing. And we saw that happen like with I think four months after it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And a lot of these would sell really well. And even to this day, like people are still doing it. But like now we have it, like I said, we haven't seen anything come out like that that could be expanded upon and and revitalized over and over and over again or reinvented over and over again. but I think litRPG, it's sort of is doing that. And it's been doing that since its inception, right? Maybe a lot of that has to do with the fact that LitRPG came out of Isekai anime. Jason: Mm. Jeff: and that has been around for I don't know, twenty years. So there's so many ideas there in that genre of anime that you can pull from that, but like there's not a lot of sci fi stuff in the media anymore that's new and fresh, that can lead to inspiring new authors. And I think the audience is getting older and older and older. and not a lot of new young people are coming in to the genre. I think they're migrating to places like Lit RPG. Jason: Mm. Jeff: But I think all it's gonna take at some point is one big idea. Dune is a big IP and that's doing really well in in movies and stuff, but it's it's from the fifties. So so Jason: Ha ha ha. Jeff: we're not getting anything original really, that's taking off. and so I'm just waiting for that to happen. but yeah. What what was the rest of your question? Jason: But I I feel like it can still ex I feel like it can still exist in this space. I feel like there's a lot of people who like sci-fi who like will Jeff: Yeah. Jason: can get into lit RPG or they can kind of move around within this like world, right? Like to me it's all like good stories, good like nerdy, fantastic, fun stories. So I think they can all exist in the same spot, but I hear what you're saying. and I I just think it's so cool that there's so many opportunities for people. whether it is lit RPG specifically or progression fantasy or science fiction, that there's so many different ways that you can onboard. And I think even if you get into reading maybe Dungeon Call of the Carl or whatever, that you'll stumble upon, something in backyard and be like, I like that too. So, I think it's also Jeff: Yeah. Jason: like so many people are fractured and there's so many niches out there that it's, you know, I feel like it's hard to Jeff: Yeah, it Jason: yeah. Jeff: it is interesting to look at DCC, Dungeon Carla Carl, and see that he's he's act he's also blended in some sci-fi to it. Jason: Yep. Yep. Jeff: And I think that might be the future of the genre, like where we're seeing it go. is sort of this fusion of other ideas to keep it fresh and interesting. We'll just have Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: to see where where people go. And like one thing about books is that What really sets the trend, the audience is really the the thing that sets the trend. It's not Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: up to the authors, it's really up to the audience. And if the audience reacts to something very strongly, then other people are going to pursue that in their own Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: way. They're gonna find new ways to do it, to tell those stories. And so people are really re responding now to DCC. Is that gonna have a big influence on the lit RPG community, the lit RPG? genre absolutely is that Jason: Mm-hmm. Jeff: is it gonna have a similar influence on sci-fi that's yet to be seen you know we don't know Jason: Fair. Yep. Fair. Jeff: I think it will but I just don't know what form that's gonna take. I think progression Jason: Sure, sure. Jeff: fantasy is a lot easier to write than progression sci fi because it's just it just lends itself to that. But we you know we have a progression sci-fi series called Infinity Upgrade that's doing really well. and we're working on like three others right now. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're Jason: Nice. Okay, good to know as I'm like taking notes here because I'm always looking for something new and something fun. So I do not genre does not hold me down. I'll do anything, so. Jeff: Yeah, we're constantly trying to to stay ahead. I try I I Jason: Nice. Jeff: I try really hard not to repeat myself in terms Jason: Ha ha ha. Jeff: of stories. that's an easy trap to fall into. Like you wanna set the trend, you don't wanna follow it necessarily. And that's that's very high risk. Jason: Fair, yeah, totally. Well, hey J Yeah, well yeah, of course. Well all this is, right? Jeff: yeah, absolutely. we we we mostly we wanna write stories we think people will wanna read. And sometimes that's not gonna be like the most popular thing. other times it will be. So you just have to like we have a a Ruins of the Galaxy spinoff in the works now. We have more backyard stuff coming. I just wrote a series called one eight hundred Starship. that's sort of like a retro eighties eighties arcade, Jason: it's fun. Jeff: yeah, type of type of story, Rubik's Cubes and lots of references to the stuff I grew up with. and Jason: That's awesome. Jeff: that yeah, that came out and did pretty well and I don't know if you've read that one yet. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? Jason: No, but I I want to now. I'm forty three. Jeff: Okay, yeah, yeah. So perfect. Yeah, so you're like a year older than me. pick that one up. Check that one out if you like if you Jason: Okay, I was gonna say we'll we'll touch base afterwards. I'll we'll get there. so I know you have you have so much going on right now. and I thank you for carving out the time to chat. but if people like what they hear, obviously I'm gonna link your website and everything about your all your books in the show notes of this episode. They can go and find you and they can connect with you. But if they want to actually see you face to face, check you out on one of your show dates. Where can they go find information about that? Jeff: If you go to JNChaney dot com and I think it's forward slash signings with an S plural, you should be able to see my schedule. But I think it's also posted on the main front page. I'll be Jason: Nice. Jeff: in Tampa tomorrow, but I know that's well before this episode's going live. Jason: Ha ha ha. Jeff: I believe in two weeks. I have to go to a wedding on the thirty first, but I believe on the seventh I'll be doing another one. Jason: Okay. Halloween wedding. Okay, nice. How about Jeff: So I have two signings left. Yeah. Yeah. Up in Salem, Massachusetts. Jason: that's fun. that'll be cool. Hopefully it's a costume. I'm just kidding. is it? Nice. Jeff: Yeah. It is a costume party, yeah. It is. Jason: how about any conventions? Are you gonna be anywhere that are you gonna be at the dragons at the Nexus event? Okay, okay. Jeff: not this year, no, unfortunately. I I will probably go next year. this year I will be at Author Nation slash Reader Nation. So I think if you're a reader, you want to go to Reader Nation, authors want to go to Author Nation. It's sort of the same conference. they connect one to the other. But I will be there this year. I will be interviewing Andy Weir on the Friday of that week on stage and asking Jason: Awesome. Jeff: him all kinds of questions about his books. I'm I believe you'll be able to stream that online afterwards. But I'll also be giving a talk on you know, how to sell a book. So Jason: Excellent. Jeff: Anybody that's going to Author Nation, if you're an author, like reach out and say hi. stop me in the hall. You know, we can sit and talk. if you're a reader, I will have a booth at the reader event on Saturday at Reader Nation. This is all in Las Vegas, so swing Jason: Okay. Jeff: by and say hi. A lot of the authors that I work with will be there. And well I'll be signing books all day. Jason: Sounds good, man. Well, thank you so much for hanging out. Please check out Backyard Starship and everything else by Jeff. And again, I'll link to everything in the show notes of this episode. Thank you so much. Hopefully this isn't the last time we chat. Jeff: Yeah, thanks thanks for having me. sorry if I rambled a little too much. I don't do a lot of interviews, so I'm a little out of practice. but I do appreciate you having me on and I love talking about sci-fi comics and books, so it's always fun.