Latest / Beyond The Horizon / Tyler Robinson Preliminary Hearing Transcript (Day 4 Part 16) (10/18/26)

Transcript

Tyler Robinson Preliminary Hearing Transcript (Day 4 Part 16) (10/18/26) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to dive right back into the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Tyler Robinson transcript from his prelim hearing on day number four.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: We have the defense doing the questioning and Samantha Karner
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: on the stand. Question. Okay. Now, once you had that
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: this and also that it was you said what's called
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the rifling was to the right, correct? Answer. Correct. The
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: direction of twist, yes. Question. Yeah, the lingo is 6
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: to right, meaning? Answer. 6 right, yes. Question. Yeah, and
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: that's a class characteristic? Answer. Correct. Question. So once you
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: have the diameter of the base of the bullet, and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: did you have some difficulty because of the damage to
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: the bullet in exactly measuring it? Answer. The reason I
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: provided a range was because of the damage and deformity
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: to the base. So at times it wasn't a perfect circle.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: So it was important for me to give a range
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: of what those diameter measurements were. Question, once you have
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: the diameter and the rifling characteristics and the land and
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  Speaker 1: groove measurements, can you then plug those measurements into a
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  Speaker 1: database and narrow down the class of weapons from which
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  Speaker 1: this bullet could have been fired? Answer, the general rifling
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  Speaker 1: characteristic search will use those class characteristics and will generate
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  Speaker 1: a list of possible firearms that could have fired the bullet.
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  Speaker 1: But that list is not all inclusive, and it's just
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  Speaker 1: used as an investigative tool. Question, sure. Could you go
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: to page 47, please? Could you tell us what we're
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  Speaker 1: looking at here? Answer, this is the result of the
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  Speaker 1: general rifling characteristic or the GRC search. Question, all right.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: And what did you determine in terms of just based
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: on the class characteristics? What weapons could have been fired
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: or fired the 6A bullet? Answer, there were several different.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: 30 caliber class firearms that could have fired the bullet. Question,
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  Speaker 1: and they're listed here, correct? Answer, correct. Question, could you
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: tell us what the initials PI and RI and PR
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  Speaker 1: mean in that far right hand column? Answer, they refer
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  Speaker 1: to different types of firearms. So rifles, revolvers, machine guns,
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  Speaker 1: any type of firearm. Question, and what are the pistol ones?
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  Speaker 1: How are they designated, PI or OR? Answer, correct. Question,
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  Speaker 1: and what is RB? Answer, bolt action. Question, bolt action. So,
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  Speaker 1: based on the class characteristics, any of these weapons could
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  Speaker 1: have fired that bullet. Answer, they could have possibly fired
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: the bullet jacket fragment, yes. Question, okay. Now, let's go
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: back to the examination of the other two measures, subclass
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: characteristics and individual characteristics. Is one of the reasons you
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: look at subclass characteristics because they can be confused with
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  Speaker 1: individual characteristics? Answer, that's a concern, yes. Question, in fact,
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  Speaker 1: your manual says right. It's important to rule in or
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  Speaker 1: out subclass characteristics to avoid the danger of confusing them
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  Speaker 1: with individual characteristics. Answer, I'm not sure if our manual
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  Speaker 1: says that verbatim. It says we do need to assess
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  Speaker 1: every piece of evidence for possible subclass characteristics. Question, and
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  Speaker 1: what's the reason for that? Answer, subclass characteristics can be
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  Speaker 1: similar to individual characteristics. However, trained examiners are able to
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  Speaker 1: notice the difference between subclass and individual. Subclass characteristics are
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  Speaker 1: not always present on an item. It's possible, but not
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: always present, and they tend to look a certain way.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: They're not going to be uniform in their appearance. They're
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: going to be spaced in a way that's more uniform.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: If you think of circles, those circles could be a
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  Speaker 1: distance between each other in the same distance every time,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: and they'll look almost exactly the same every time. Question now.
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  Speaker 1: Does your laboratory have certain protocols for conducting these comparisons? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: we have procedures for comparison, yes, like taking photographs. Question, well,
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  Speaker 1: also procedure for instance, you have a document called examination
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  Speaker 1: and comparison of unfired and fired ammunition and components that
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: deal specifically with the procedure to be followed for that
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  Speaker 1: kind of examination you did here, correct? Answer, yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: believe that refers to the minimal documentation necessary for a
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  Speaker 1: piece of evidence. Question, and one of those standard operating
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  Speaker 1: procedure requirements is document observations and evaluate for the potential
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: of subclass characteristics on the relevant tool working surface, right? Answer, correct, yes. Question,
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  Speaker 1: and you did that in this case? Answer, I did, yes. Question, okay.
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  Speaker 1: And what conclusions did you reach? Answer, can I refer
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  Speaker 1: to my notes? Question, yes, please. Answer, my subclass assessment
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  Speaker 1: that's on page 13 of my report states... The stria
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  Speaker 1: observed in the land and groove impressions contain starts and stops,
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  Speaker 1: are not coarse, and vary in their height, width, and depth,
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  Speaker 1: and spatial arrangement. No apparent subclass influence. Question, okay. And
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  Speaker 1: what page was that on again? Answer, page 13. Question,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: page 13. Let me ask you about that. The stria
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  Speaker 1: observed are not coarse. I think I understand that. And
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  Speaker 1: vary in their height, width, depth, and spatial arrangement. Did
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  Speaker 1: you measure the height, width, depth, And land and groove impressions? Answer.
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  Speaker 1: The land and groove impression widths? Yes, I did. Question.
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  Speaker 1: And how about the stria? That's different than the land
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: and groove impressions, right? Answer. Correct. Yes. Question. You didn't
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: measure the height, width, and depth of those marks, correct? Answer. No,
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  Speaker 1: I did not. Question. Okay. And your protocol says, does
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  Speaker 1: it not? Due to their similarity to a potential confusion
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  Speaker 1: with individual characteristics, it's essential that the evidence be evaluated
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  Speaker 1: in for potential of subclass characteristics? Answer, it does, yes. Question,
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  Speaker 1: that's the whole purpose of why you're doing that part
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  Speaker 1: of the exam, right? Answer, correct, yes. Question, and anywhere
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  Speaker 1: in your protocol does it specify that you're looking for,
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  Speaker 1: or is it just up to you to decide what
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  Speaker 1: is and what is not a subclass characteristic? Answer, subclass
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  Speaker 1: characteristics are a very large part of the training process
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  Speaker 1: to become a firearm and tool mark examiner. There are
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  Speaker 1: modules that are taught where you're trained to recognize what
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  Speaker 1: subclass characteristics look like, what manufacturing techniques might lend to
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  Speaker 1: more subclass characteristics. So I'm trained to know what it
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  Speaker 1: looks like. Question okay. And my question though was, does
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: your standard operating procedure set out? Here are the things
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  Speaker 1: you should be looking for. For instance, does it say
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  Speaker 1: if what the marks you're looking at are not coarse
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  Speaker 1: and vary in their height, weight, depth and spatial arrangement,
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  Speaker 1: or if they're perpendicular on the barrel, that indicates that
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  Speaker 1: it's not a subclass characteristic. Is there anything like that
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  Speaker 1: in the manual? Answer, no, there is not. Question, okay.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Did you inspect the interior of the barrel? Answer, I did, yes. Question,
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  Speaker 1: and did you notice whether it had any debris or
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  Speaker 1: dust in it? Answer, I believe my notes state that
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  Speaker 1: debris and dust was observed in the inside of the barrel, yes. Okay,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: and could you further characterize what that was, debris? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: I think it says dust. So I would say dust. Question, dust.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: What can cause dust to get inside of a barrel? Answer,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: a plethora of things. I'm not sure why something is
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  Speaker 1: ever in a barrel. Question, okay. So you determined here,
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  Speaker 1: you rule out subclass characteristics, correct? Answer, yes. Question. Then
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: the next part of the examination was determining... whether you
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: had any individual characteristics on the bullet, correct? Answer, yes. Question,
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  Speaker 1: and what did you conclude in that regard? Answer, that
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  Speaker 1: there were microscopic marks of value worthy of comparison, or yes,
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  Speaker 1: individual characteristics in the land and groove impressions. Question, and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: does your standard operating procedure have any guidance in terms
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  Speaker 1: of how you go about determining that? Answer, no, I
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: don't believe so. Question, okay. And then once you determine
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: that you have items of value on that question bullet,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: do you then do something to reduce the test bullets? Answer, yes.
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  Speaker 1: Part of the comparison process when there is a firearm
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  Speaker 1: that we receive is to test fire it to make
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  Speaker 1: pristine samples to see if reproducible individual marks of value
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  Speaker 1: is on the bullet or the cartridge case. Question, how
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: many test fires did you produce in this case? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: I made three sets, so six total. Questions. Is that
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  Speaker 1: your standard number of test fires? Answer. Our standard operating
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  Speaker 1: procedure states that you need at least two. There's not
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  Speaker 1: a maximum number that we're allowed to do. It's the
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  Speaker 1: discretion of the examiner. Question. Were you informed by other
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  Speaker 1: investigators working on the case that this particular weapon was
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: manufactured in Germany in 1938? Answer. I was not. No. Question.
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  Speaker 1: You did not review a report from an ATF agent
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  Speaker 1: who investigated that issue? Answer, no, I don't believe so, no. Question,
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  Speaker 1: in doing your examination, is it important to know something
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  Speaker 1: about the manufacturing process of the weapon? Answer, it's helpful
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  Speaker 1: to know how a barrel or any part of the
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  Speaker 1: firearm is manufactured, yes. Question, and why is that? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: certain manufacturing techniques will lend to that individual characteristic. So
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: grinding is a method that is known to leave individual
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  Speaker 1: characteristics on a tool. So if an item that I receive,
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  Speaker 1: I can tell is finished, or are manufactured by grinding,
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  Speaker 1: it already gives me an indication that the individual characteristics
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  Speaker 1: would be left from that tool to tool mark. Question, now,
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  Speaker 1: once you have your six test fires, then did some
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  Speaker 1: comparison between the test fires, right? Answer, that is correct, yes. Question,
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  Speaker 1: why do you do that? Answer, that establishes whether or
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: not there are individual reproducible marks of value on the
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: test fires. It's important to know that because if there's
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: not reproductibility amongst the test fires, then there's a chance
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  Speaker 1: to say, oh, it's not going to reproduce on the
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  Speaker 1: evidence and I wouldn't have anything to compare it to. Question, yes.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: And you've had cases where you fired the six test
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  Speaker 1: fires and you don't get reproducible marks? Answer, not that
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  Speaker 1: I can recall. Question, and when you do your comparisons,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: just looking at the test fires, do you get situations
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: where there's some dissimilarities between those two fired bullets from
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: your test fires? Answer, yeah. There are at times, there
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  Speaker 1: will be disagreement amongst the individual characteristics, even in test fires.
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  Speaker 1: You have to think of it as when a bullet
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: travels down a barrel or a cartridge case interacts with
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: a firearm, the marks aren't going to be left onto
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  Speaker 1: that item the same way 100% of the time. It's
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: almost like a stamp. If you know you're using a
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  Speaker 1: stamp and you put it in ink and then you
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  Speaker 1: put it on two separate areas of an item, it
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: might look a little different just from the way the
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: stamp was placed. It's the same thing with a bullet
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: traveling down the barrel or a cartridge case coming into
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: contact with a firearm. Question, so even when you know
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: a bullet fired from the same weapon, you can have
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: six bullets fired, and when you start comparing them, you'll
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: see differences between each bullet? Answer, there is a possibility
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: to see some areas of disagreement. However, if I'm rendering
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: an identification and saying there's reproducible individual marks of value
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  Speaker 1: on these test fires, there will be an overwhelming amount
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: of sufficient agreement of that individual characteristic. Question, and when
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: you're doing these comparisons, You use something called the ATF
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: theory of identification, don't you? Answer, yes, the AFTE theory
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: of identification. Question, all right, and take a look. And
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: that's the standard that you used in the case to
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  Speaker 1: draw conclusions that you made the report that I showed
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: you earlier, correct? Answer, that is the theory stating how
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: an examiner is able to come to a conclusion when
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: examining two or more sets of tool marks. And yes,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: this is how I go through my examination And now
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  Speaker 1: I come up with the conclusion, yes. Question, okay, and
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: what is AFTE? Question, AFTE is the Association of Firearm
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and Toolmark Examiners. It's the governing body of the firearm
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and toolmark community whose primary goal is to further research
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: and continue to show information about manufacturing and evolution of
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: firearm and toolmark examination. They hold annual seminars, publish a
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: glossary of terminologies, used by the firearm community, and they
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: also have a peer-reviewed published journal. Question, peer-reviewed published journal.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Can I join AFTE? Question, most of the firearm members
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: are firearm and tool mark examiners. There are also technical
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: advisors and associate members. Those members are not usually firearm
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: and tool mark examiners, but they still have a livelihood
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: in firearm and tool mark examination, meaning they conduct research
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: or they're involved in products or manufacturing. And anybody's allowed
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: to come to the annual seminar or get the journal.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: You just have to pay the fee. Question. You just
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: have to pay the fee, okay? Could you display to
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the witness Exhibit 27, please? Do you recognize what's displayed here? Answer.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: It appears to be the AFTE Theory of Identification, yes. Question.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I move that into evidence, Your Honor. Judge Graff, what
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: is it? Answer. This is the standard that she used
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to make comparisons in the case, correct? Question, Judge Graf,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: would this be Karner 27? Answer, this would be Karner 27,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Your Honor. Judge Graf to the state. All right, and
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: that's where we're going to pick up in the next episode.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: All the information that goes with this episode can be
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: found in the description box.