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Savannah Guthrie Mom Missing: Does Barking Dog Signal Abduction? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie
0:09
Speaker 1: missing this as Pima County helicopters joined by Maricopa County
0:15
Speaker 1: helicopters take to the air headed toward the Phoenix, Arizona
0:23
Speaker 1: FBI headquarters tonight. A careful analysis of the lights that
0:29
Speaker 1: appear over the shoulder of the so called porch guy.
0:33
Speaker 1: Are they actually coming from the vacant house now that
0:37
Speaker 1: we know where it is, or the construction site now
0:40
Speaker 1: that we know where that is? And an expert joins
0:44
Speaker 1: us on the mysterious tracks outside Nancy Guthrie's home. Good evening,
0:49
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
0:52
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
1:04
Speaker 2: Directly from our home to Nancy's house. It would be
1:10
Speaker 2: rough brush especially in the dark. She was just a pleasant,
1:13
Speaker 2: wonderful neighbor. And we're so saddened, of course, a heartbroken
1:18
Speaker 2: about what's happened.
1:21
Speaker 1: The Caddy Corner neighbor of Nancy Guthrie revealing a lot.
1:26
Speaker 1: Mister Lemie tells us that the vacant home and the
1:32
Speaker 1: construction site we're very near Nancy Guthrie's home. We learned
1:39
Speaker 1: a lot this is helicopters take to the air from
1:43
Speaker 1: Pima County and Maricopa straight out to Dave matt crime
1:47
Speaker 1: Stori's investigative reporter, first the helicopters. What happened and why?
1:52
Speaker 3: Nancy, the Pima County Sheriff's Department has been using helicopters
1:56
Speaker 3: in the Guthrie investigation since early on and yes, yesterday
2:00
Speaker 3: they took off early and flew in a corridor between
2:05
Speaker 3: Tucson and the border with Mexico and flew back but
2:09
Speaker 3: then landed. It's at the FBI office headquarters.
2:14
Speaker 1: Now.
2:15
Speaker 3: As the day went on, Pema County was joined by
2:19
Speaker 3: Maricopa County Sheriff's Department helicopters also joining in the travels
2:24
Speaker 3: between Tucson and the border and back to Phoenix again.
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Speaker 3: So we've got evidence that has been transported by helicopters
2:32
Speaker 3: in this investigation and in other investigations, and wonder if
2:37
Speaker 3: that's the same thing taking place now with Pema County
2:40
Speaker 3: going down toward the border and back to Phoenix.
2:43
Speaker 1: Well, guys, this is from our friends at Fox and
2:45
Speaker 1: US this video. You're saying, you know, Scott Morgan, I
2:50
Speaker 1: would discount it as being primitive, but you know the
2:55
Speaker 1: fact that Apma County helicopter went toward the Mexican border
3:00
Speaker 1: and was joined by Marikoba County helicopter. But for the
3:03
Speaker 1: fact that the helicopters then went to the FBI headquarters.
3:09
Speaker 1: To me, that's just too much, too much of a coincidence.
3:13
Speaker 1: So that says to me, this was Nancy Guthrie related.
3:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, would I would say that it was. Do you
3:21
Speaker 4: recall when we saw those individuals show up at the house.
3:24
Speaker 4: They were dressed in suits. We thought that maybe they
3:27
Speaker 4: were part of the prosectorial team, perhaps FEDS. They're trying
3:31
Speaker 4: to assess the whole area in its fatality. All right,
3:36
Speaker 4: so if you fly that cycle from that location and
3:40
Speaker 4: then all the way back pending around, you're kind of
3:42
Speaker 4: getting a bird thy view, arn't and maybe they had
3:45
Speaker 4: picked up on something, if they had done any kind
3:48
Speaker 4: of light OAR mapping, any kind of BSI BIS mapping.
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Speaker 1: They're trying to Okay, you need to explain to everyone
3:55
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Just throwing out acronyms is not helping
3:59
Speaker 1: anyone under stand what you're saying, and it's very valuable
4:02
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Go ahead.
4:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, So if they're if they're working on any kind
4:07
Speaker 4: of imagery, uh that has been either generated by drones,
4:13
Speaker 4: it's been generated by satellite imagery. It's one thing to
4:16
Speaker 4: take that and look at it on a computer screen.
4:19
Speaker 4: But if you've got people that are interested in this investigation,
4:22
Speaker 4: they can take those images and go back and say, Okay,
4:25
Speaker 4: we're going to fly this route. This is something that is,
4:29
Speaker 4: like you said, potentially probative. If they're talking about a
4:32
Speaker 4: track or a trail that leads in that particular direction.
4:35
Speaker 4: See here, we have it on the imagery that we've generated.
4:39
Speaker 4: We're going to fly this route, and then we're going
4:42
Speaker 4: to go back to the office discussing. I think that
4:45
Speaker 4: that that very well might be or have some value
4:48
Speaker 4: for individuals that are, let's just say, in military terms,
4:52
Speaker 4: on the tipic sphere in this particular investigation.
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Speaker 1: Joining us now in addition to Joseph's Got Morgan, Director
4:58
Speaker 1: Operations USPA Nation White Security leading a team of investigators
5:02
Speaker 1: around the world to locate and extract missing people. Former
5:07
Speaker 1: Marine Iraqi war Vet Brian Fitzgibbons I find it very
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Speaker 1: telling that first Pima County helicopters take to the air.
5:16
Speaker 1: This is in the last twenty four hours, they are
5:18
Speaker 1: joined by Maricopa County helicopters. They go toward the Mexican border,
5:23
Speaker 1: seemingly rendezvous, and then head back toward the FBI headquarters
5:28
Speaker 1: in Phoenix. Remember a couple of weeks ago, the FBI
5:32
Speaker 1: decamped largely from Tucson, leaving guys and women on the ground,
5:38
Speaker 1: but heading back to assimilate evidence at their main headquarters
5:43
Speaker 1: where they have all of their facilities. They're in Phoenix,
5:47
Speaker 1: so why what could they be looking at? This is
5:51
Speaker 1: what you and your team at USPA Nationwide Security do
5:55
Speaker 1: when you are trying to find missing people. So how
5:58
Speaker 1: does this fit in with Nancy Guff?
6:01
Speaker 5: Yeah, we live in an age of incredible amounts of
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Speaker 5: open source intelligence where you know, the public online sluice
6:09
Speaker 5: private firms are able to track with incredible detail, in
6:14
Speaker 5: immediacy any movements of aircraft in and around related to
6:20
Speaker 5: this case, with tail numbers and everything else, you know, destinations,
6:24
Speaker 5: their travel patterns, you know, could this be something related
6:29
Speaker 5: to the case. Potentially, could this be related to some
6:33
Speaker 5: other case. We don't know all that. All that we're able.
6:36
Speaker 1: To see that Brian, Brian, I know it may or
6:41
Speaker 1: may not be related to this case. I would venture
6:45
Speaker 1: to just go out on a limb and say it
6:47
Speaker 1: is because they circle back to the FBI headquarters. What
6:50
Speaker 1: other case is PAYMA handling that is FBI connected that
6:55
Speaker 1: they want to use a helicopter form So what are
6:57
Speaker 1: they looking at? Why do they need a helicopter van point?
7:01
Speaker 1: Why bring in another law enforcement agency mirricope? Of course
7:05
Speaker 1: I know it may or may not be connected. I
7:08
Speaker 1: mean I can ask a guy on the street that.
7:10
Speaker 1: But you're the director of Operations USPA Nationwide Security, so think, think, think, ye,
7:15
Speaker 1: what are they doing?
7:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this looks like movement of personnel to me.
7:21
Speaker 5: So for some reason they went directly to that FBI location.
7:27
Speaker 5: You know, we didn't see them scanning similar to the
7:31
Speaker 5: Bluetooth beacon where they were searching in a slow, methodical
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Speaker 5: grid pattern. These were directed movements of personnel for a
7:41
Speaker 5: specific reason back to that FBI location.
7:46
Speaker 1: I don't think they took the scenic route. Brian Fitzgibbons.
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Speaker 1: I don't think they went from PEMA to the Mexican
7:55
Speaker 1: border and then too the FBI headquarters to transfer personnel.
8:00
Speaker 1: Personnel can get in a car and drive they're not
8:03
Speaker 1: getting a helicopter escort. Plus, they're not going to go
8:06
Speaker 1: in a triangle. If it was just transferring personnel, they
8:09
Speaker 1: would go from Pema to Phoenix. They would not go
8:15
Speaker 1: a drive by at the Mexican border. What, Brian, You've
8:22
Speaker 1: extracted a lot of people that were missing. Why did
8:25
Speaker 1: they need an aerial view? This is not like catching
8:28
Speaker 1: an uber to carry somebody to FBI headquarters. They're looking
8:32
Speaker 1: for something. What.
8:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I disagree. I think that this is a
8:37
Speaker 5: movement of people. You know, whether those personnel are you know,
8:42
Speaker 5: Pema County Sheriff's office or a potential suspect in this case.
8:47
Speaker 5: That that flight pattern looked to me like they were
8:50
Speaker 5: moving people.
8:51
Speaker 1: Okay, I reject that, but maybe you're right. Before I
8:55
Speaker 1: totally throw out the baby with the bath order, Dave
8:58
Speaker 1: mac tell me again, what we know about the helicopter
9:01
Speaker 1: movements last night.
9:02
Speaker 3: What we know, Nancy, is that it started with Pima County, Okay.
9:06
Speaker 5: At first, it was.
9:07
Speaker 3: Just Pima County flying there helicopter from Tucson to the border,
9:13
Speaker 3: then coming back landing near the Phoenix office for the FBI.
9:19
Speaker 3: Then later in the day, Maricopa County then joined the
9:24
Speaker 3: Pima County Sheriff's Department helicopter. So you had Pema County
9:27
Speaker 3: going alone, then returning and going back with Maricopa County
9:32
Speaker 3: two helicopters flying from to the border from the Tucson area,
9:37
Speaker 3: and then again incorporating the FBI landing into that as
9:41
Speaker 3: well in Phoenix, again Pima alone, then Marikopa County together.
9:46
Speaker 1: Hmm. Todd Shipley joining US digital cybercrime expert and you
9:51
Speaker 1: can find him at dark intel dot info. Former Detective
9:56
Speaker 1: Sergeant Reno twenty five years in LA, the author of
10:00
Speaker 1: Surviving Cyber Attack Todd, What were they looking for? Why
10:06
Speaker 1: did they need helicopter vantages? Why did they need to
10:11
Speaker 1: look at why did they need an aerial view?
10:15
Speaker 6: Well, they could have easily gotten new information that we
10:19
Speaker 6: didn't know about before, which leads to them looking for
10:23
Speaker 6: a path that the kidnappers could have taken there, trying
10:27
Speaker 6: to verify locations. There may have been some evidence that
10:30
Speaker 6: they found near the border, but they wanted to hurriedly
10:34
Speaker 6: get back to the FBI to go through. So there's
10:38
Speaker 6: a couple of different things that could have happened. I mean,
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Speaker 6: the transportation to personnel is definitely one of them, but
10:44
Speaker 6: there's a lot of other things that could have happened there.
10:46
Speaker 6: I think that they still want to try to find
10:50
Speaker 6: signals from the pacemaker. If it's still active, they could
10:53
Speaker 6: be updoing that again. Again, they would be doing something
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Speaker 6: more patterned. But if they had specific information about a location,
11:02
Speaker 6: than may have wanted to get down there in the
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Speaker 6: air right away to try to see if they could
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Speaker 6: get the signal.
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Speaker 1: Shipley, I agree with you on everything you said except
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Speaker 1: one thing. I don't think it has anything to do
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Speaker 1: with Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker because they started Correct me if
11:17
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Dave Matt. They started the pacemaker search with
11:21
Speaker 1: a signal sniffer, which is blue flight technology. They quickly
11:26
Speaker 1: transferred to drones with the sniffer attached because the bluetooth
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Speaker 1: signal from a pacemaker does not extend as high as
11:41
Speaker 1: many people think, so they had to get lower down
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Speaker 1: to the ground. Therefore, I don't think they would make
11:50
Speaker 1: the same mistake of attaching signal sniffers to a helicopter
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Speaker 1: and flying to Mexico. I see where you're going. I
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Speaker 1: agree with everything you said before the What is that
12:01
Speaker 1: Dave mac jumping in? Go ahead, Dave and by the way,
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Speaker 1: that's from our friends at Blue Flight YouTube.
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Speaker 3: I'm just trying to point out that, you know, Bluetooth technology,
12:08
Speaker 3: it only reaches about twenty feet, and so once you're
12:11
Speaker 3: past that, I'm not going to do a lot of good.
12:13
Speaker 3: And that's the case where they were able to use
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Speaker 3: the drugs because you can bring the drones in a
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Speaker 3: lot lower than you can bring in helicopters, and a
12:20
Speaker 3: lot they're less disruptive as well. So I'm with you
12:23
Speaker 3: on that one. With regard to what the helicopters were
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Speaker 3: being used for.
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Speaker 1: Yesterday, well, I'm so glad that there's an echo chamber,
12:30
Speaker 1: but the Bluetooth signal, as we learned at the time,
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Speaker 1: goes much further than twenty feet. That was the Bluetooth
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Speaker 1: signal you're referring to, correctly, Dave Mac the Bluetooth signal
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Speaker 1: from her phone and her WiFi. Once she left the home,
12:53
Speaker 1: it cut that connection. That video from our friends at
12:55
Speaker 1: Fox News. But Brayfhatz Gibbons didn't we learn upon a
13:00
Speaker 1: careful review that Bluetooth signals can go as far as
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Speaker 1: the football field.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so there had been some work done on these
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Speaker 5: antennas to amp to increase the range of that signal
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Speaker 5: sniffer up to you know, one hundred and fifty to
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Speaker 5: three hundred feet in some test cases that I saw online.
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Speaker 5: So I believe that some of that technology had been
13:31
Speaker 5: deployed earlier on in this case, you know, to broaden
13:35
Speaker 5: the scope of that search.
13:37
Speaker 1: You're right, helicopters could actually interfere with the signals reception
13:41
Speaker 1: and cannot get low enough to connect, and that is
13:45
Speaker 1: why the device was then attached to a drone. So
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Speaker 1: I don't think this had anything to do with trying
13:54
Speaker 1: to find her pacemaker. I do, however, think Todd Shipley's
13:58
Speaker 1: onto something about what they were looking for. Could it
14:02
Speaker 1: have been a route, Could it have been even a hideout,
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Speaker 1: It could have been so many things. We don't know yet,
14:08
Speaker 1: but we're trying to find out. That said, in the
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Speaker 1: last twenty four hours, helicopters from Pima County Sheriffs, then
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Speaker 1: joined by Maricopa County Sheriffs rendezvous, we understand en route
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Speaker 1: to the Mexican border, then travel to the FBI headquarters
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Speaker 1: in Phoenix. Also, the Guthrie family issuing another desperate plea
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Speaker 1: asking neighbors to search their memories.
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Speaker 3: We are deeply grateful for the outpouring from neighbors, friends,
14:44
Speaker 3: and the people of Tucson. We're all family now. We
14:47
Speaker 3: continue to believe it is Tusonans and the greater Southern
14:51
Speaker 3: Arizona community that hold the key to finding resolution. In
14:54
Speaker 3: this case, someone knows something. It's possible a member of
14:59
Speaker 3: this commune unity has information that they do not even
15:02
Speaker 3: realize is significant. We hope people search their memories, especially
15:06
Speaker 3: around the key timelines of January thirty first, the early
15:10
Speaker 3: morning hours of February first, as well as the late
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Speaker 3: evening of January eleventh. We desperately ask the community for
15:17
Speaker 3: renewed attention to our mom's case. Please consult camera footage,
15:22
Speaker 3: journal notes, text messages, observations or conversations that in retrospect
15:28
Speaker 3: may hold significance. No detail is too small it may
15:32
Speaker 3: be the key. We miss our mom with every breath,
15:36
Speaker 3: and we cannot be in peace until she's home. We
15:39
Speaker 3: cannot grieve, we can only ache and wonder. Our focus
15:43
Speaker 3: is solely on finding her and bringing her home. We
15:47
Speaker 3: want to celebrate her beautiful and courageous life, but we
15:50
Speaker 3: cannot do that until she's brought to a final place
15:53
Speaker 3: of rest. Thank you for continuing to pray without ceasing.
15:58
Speaker 1: That statement from the Gufrie family is heartbreaking on so
16:03
Speaker 1: many levels. Again referring back to Thessalonians begging people to
16:09
Speaker 1: pray without ceasing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace out to
16:23
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of
16:27
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a
16:30
Speaker 1: hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, but more importantly,
16:36
Speaker 1: death investigator with over ten thousand death investigations under his belt.
16:43
Speaker 1: Did you hear not only the heartbreaking nature of that?
16:47
Speaker 1: And I can't help but think of Savannah specifically, since
16:52
Speaker 1: many people believe they know her or seen her on
16:55
Speaker 1: TV so much, having seen her heart wrenching, please to
16:59
Speaker 1: find her mother. There was a lot said in that.
17:04
Speaker 1: I heard the date January eleven mentioned now again Nano saying,
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Speaker 1: oh yeah, well, maybe the guy wasn't on the front
17:13
Speaker 1: porch January eleven. But you know what, I had a
17:18
Speaker 1: guest in the last twenty four hours, Joe Scott, you
17:20
Speaker 1: were with me? That says it was mister Lemi that
17:24
Speaker 1: stated FBI asked him about January eleven. He a lot
17:30
Speaker 1: of people are attacking him, of course online I say,
17:34
Speaker 1: and saying that he made that. No, he was asked
17:38
Speaker 1: to review his video and he did, and he discovered
17:43
Speaker 1: after FBI requesting it, and he reviewed it. That was
17:47
Speaker 1: one of the very few times that and the night
17:51
Speaker 1: of the kidnap, that on those two nights alone, his
17:55
Speaker 1: dog went crazy and wanted to go outside. He also
17:58
Speaker 1: said the FBI asked him about that date, even though
18:01
Speaker 1: Nanos says, yeah, he's backtracking. Maybe it wasn't that date,
18:06
Speaker 1: but Savannah is mentioning that date as well. That date
18:11
Speaker 1: is significant and I'm learning a lot from this most
18:14
Speaker 1: recent statement. Do you believe that this statement has been
18:20
Speaker 1: specifically issued because law enforcement is no longer giving any
18:27
Speaker 1: information out There are no more no pressers, So Savannah
18:31
Speaker 1: and her brother and sister are trying to keep the
18:33
Speaker 1: search alive.
18:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. Just imagine somebody doing chess compressions here.
18:40
Speaker 4: They're trying to breathe life or sustain life in this investigation,
18:45
Speaker 4: and information, incoming information and also outgoing information are always
18:50
Speaker 4: the life's blood of any of any kind of investigation. Answer,
18:55
Speaker 4: And yeah, it's not just about her making a statement
18:58
Speaker 4: like this This is something that her people are telling
19:02
Speaker 4: her to do, to reference back to her mother, to
19:05
Speaker 4: keep this case alive. I do not hold with all
19:09
Speaker 4: of these people out there saying that this is a
19:11
Speaker 4: cold case. You want to talk about cold cases, I'll
19:14
Speaker 4: talk to you about cold cases. This is not, I repeat,
19:18
Speaker 4: a cold k stop saying it. All right. At this point,
19:23
Speaker 4: I know that many weeks have gone by, the media
19:26
Speaker 4: is begging for more data. This is not a cold case,
19:30
Speaker 4: not the way a cold case is handled. At this point, Tom,
19:33
Speaker 4: there's still life here, there's still hope. There's a possibility
19:37
Speaker 4: of some type of conclusion. None of us can guarantee
19:40
Speaker 4: what that conclusion will be, but yet there's still data
19:43
Speaker 4: to be gleaned. It's not a cold case.
19:46
Speaker 1: Back to the issue, and the issue is what is
19:50
Speaker 1: Savannah stating and this most recent plea to Rivis Gibbons
19:54
Speaker 1: joining us USPA nationwide security, she mentioned several days which
19:59
Speaker 1: belong contradict what Nana's is saying that Jan twenty four,
20:04
Speaker 1: Jan eleventh, Yeah, we're not sure about that anymore. She
20:07
Speaker 1: specifically says Jan eleven specifically and Jan. Thirty one, which
20:13
Speaker 1: leads me to believe that date is significant do you
20:18
Speaker 1: agree or disagree and why the statement? Now?
20:23
Speaker 5: Of course I agree that January eleventh is an important date,
20:30
Speaker 5: and we know this as fact. At this point, the
20:34
Speaker 5: FBI went door to door Todd, Mister Lemie, your guest
20:39
Speaker 5: yesterday corroborated that looking for information about January eleventh. So
20:46
Speaker 5: the fact that p MA County Sheriff Chris Nanos is
20:49
Speaker 5: saying that that date doesn't necessarily mean anything, I don't
20:53
Speaker 5: understand that statement. That date is clearly important and connected
20:58
Speaker 5: to this case.
21:01
Speaker 1: The Guthries holding on to hope that someone in the
21:04
Speaker 1: community will hand over critical information about their mom. They
21:10
Speaker 1: of course express gratitude to all the citizens. They name
21:15
Speaker 1: specific dates, which contradict what Nanos is saying. Now they
21:20
Speaker 1: are asking for renewed attention. They say, no detail is small,
21:25
Speaker 1: It may be the key, It may be the key.
21:30
Speaker 1: Many believe that this statement was timed because no more pressors,
21:36
Speaker 1: no more information coming from law enforcement. Many people think
21:42
Speaker 1: that the statement is coded in some way, just as
21:45
Speaker 1: they speculated about an earlier plea by Savannah.
21:50
Speaker 7: We received your message and we understand. We beg you
21:55
Speaker 7: now to return our mother to us so that we
21:59
Speaker 7: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we
22:02
Speaker 7: will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and
22:07
Speaker 7: we will pay.
22:09
Speaker 1: She may have been using code words, we know that
22:14
Speaker 1: the authorities, specifically the FBI, helped her come up with
22:19
Speaker 1: those statements. Savannah didn't just go rogue. That was very
22:23
Speaker 1: carefully worded, as is the current statement that has just
22:27
Speaker 1: been released. Well aside from helicopters taking to the ear,
22:31
Speaker 1: the Guthries issuing a very carefully worded plea for information,
22:36
Speaker 1: Let's take another look at those lights, specifically where we
22:42
Speaker 1: have a pointer showing the lights behind the purpse shoulder.
22:49
Speaker 1: There you go. Now I want to talk about what
22:53
Speaker 1: we learned from mister Lemi. This is from Blue Star
22:57
Speaker 1: eight twelve on X. By the way, thanks blue Star.
23:00
Speaker 1: What did we learn last night from mister Let me.
23:05
Speaker 2: If you're on Escalante and you directly stare from Nancy's
23:11
Speaker 2: home up the street, that kind of there's a there's
23:15
Speaker 2: a cul de sac above. If this on this camera
23:19
Speaker 2: view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house
23:25
Speaker 2: at the very very top of that cul de sac.
23:28
Speaker 2: That's where construction is occurring.
23:32
Speaker 1: So we see the construction site and the vacant property site.
23:36
Speaker 1: Now do those lights coincide with either of those properties?
23:44
Speaker 1: To Dave Matt from Crime Stories, what about.
23:47
Speaker 3: It, Nancy, It's really it's very possible that those lights
23:52
Speaker 3: line up where you can see or what appears to
23:56
Speaker 3: be not a natural light, this is something that is
24:00
Speaker 3: at an angle right there. I'm just amazed it's coming
24:03
Speaker 3: from what appears to be the vacant house where the
24:06
Speaker 3: construction work is being done.
24:08
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Dave Matt, you said it could be
24:11
Speaker 1: coming from the vacant house the construction site. Those are
24:15
Speaker 1: two different things. Let's see the map again. It can't
24:18
Speaker 1: be coming from both. So based on where her home is,
24:22
Speaker 1: where the porch is, which is more likely, what's the
24:27
Speaker 1: most likely source? Would it be the construction site or
24:31
Speaker 1: the vacant property?
24:33
Speaker 3: The construction site is what I meant. And if you
24:35
Speaker 3: notice as the purp glances over the shoulder, it's like
24:40
Speaker 3: that's where this light is coming in. And when he's moving,
24:44
Speaker 3: we can see it. It's a stationary light. It's not moving.
24:47
Speaker 3: He's moving.
24:48
Speaker 1: Gotch you Okay, there are many scenarios which could create this.
24:54
Speaker 1: It could be headlights, but yet it's not moving. But
24:58
Speaker 1: there you see the per looking back at it. It could
25:02
Speaker 1: still be headlights, even if the vehicle wasn't moving. That
25:06
Speaker 1: could be the so called getaway car. Could it be
25:10
Speaker 1: solar lights? Could it be a house light? To Todd
25:15
Speaker 1: Shipley joining a cybercrime expert, how well can the FEDS
25:21
Speaker 1: enhance that?
25:24
Speaker 5: Well?
25:24
Speaker 6: I think with the technology we've got to day, they
25:26
Speaker 6: can do a lot to identify what it possibly was.
25:30
Speaker 6: If it was a car, maybe they can outline the
25:34
Speaker 6: lens and try to figure out what it is. But
25:37
Speaker 6: at the altitude that it's at, it's probably, as you're suggesting,
25:41
Speaker 6: the construction site something down the street is. It doesn't
25:45
Speaker 6: look low enough to be the street level, so it's
25:49
Speaker 6: probably coming from that construction site. But they can do
25:52
Speaker 6: a lot to make it look better and try to
25:55
Speaker 6: figure out what it is. But again, like I said yesterday,
25:58
Speaker 6: why didn't they notice this earlier? Why was this not
26:02
Speaker 6: something that they looked at? What was the bias they
26:04
Speaker 6: were looking at?
26:05
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold On, Shipley? How do we know they
26:08
Speaker 1: didn't notice it? I mean I haven't been tripping through
26:13
Speaker 1: the FBI files, but for all we know they have
26:16
Speaker 1: noticed it. And if they haven't, well they have Now
26:19
Speaker 1: I want to use your brain On another issue, I
26:24
Speaker 1: want to talk about those tracks. Those tracks. We got
26:28
Speaker 1: additional photos of the tracks outside Nancy Guthries home. Let's
26:34
Speaker 1: see the additional There you go, there's one of them.
26:38
Speaker 1: Let's keep looking, and I want you to notice that's
26:41
Speaker 1: from Chillinois on X We've got several more. Keep looking.
26:50
Speaker 1: That's the one we showed you last night. Now, very
26:55
Speaker 1: concerning how this scene was treated, How was it's this
27:00
Speaker 1: scene handled? When were these photos taken? When were the
27:06
Speaker 1: tracks left behind? Extremely significant? Had the pizza delivery guy
27:11
Speaker 1: come up there? Had the gravel been disturbed? What about it?
27:17
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, this is your Baillywick.
27:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, looking at these, Nancy. Actually, now if you take
27:24
Speaker 4: a look at that larger kind of panoramic view of
27:28
Speaker 4: the tract, you can actually appreciate that it's got what
27:31
Speaker 4: we refer to as kind of a curved or curved
27:33
Speaker 4: linear pattern. And this is a bilinear track. So you've
27:36
Speaker 4: got two tracks that are running parallel to one another,
27:39
Speaker 4: and it's hard to judge from this angle, it's hard
27:42
Speaker 4: to judge depth. But what I can tell you though
27:45
Speaker 4: looking at this, and there's been a lot of speculation
27:47
Speaker 4: about this is what we refer to in automotive terms
27:51
Speaker 4: when we're doing automotive work. As far as investigations, it's
27:56
Speaker 4: got a wheelbase, very specific wheelbase. What can we deduce
27:59
Speaker 4: from that, Well, we've heard any number of things. I've
28:02
Speaker 4: heard people say a wagon. Don't think it's a wagon.
28:05
Speaker 4: I think probably two wheels. That could be a trash men.
28:09
Speaker 4: I've heard a lot of chatter about that, and of
28:11
Speaker 4: course what we mentioned yesterday, a wheelchair. Of course, if
28:16
Speaker 4: you think about a wheelchair, you've got two separate tires.
28:20
Speaker 4: Are you've actually got four, but they're on both sides,
28:23
Speaker 4: and so as you turn this thing, the radius of
28:26
Speaker 4: this thing is going to Readjust this looks like you're
28:29
Speaker 4: talking about two wheels at this point, Tom. So what
28:32
Speaker 4: could generate that? If they do the wheelbase assessment on
28:36
Speaker 4: this and I hope that they did this at the
28:38
Speaker 4: time because these tracks have probably been eradicated. Now, if
28:42
Speaker 4: they did a measurement on this, that could put them
28:45
Speaker 4: in the neighborhood of what it was what conveyant actually generated,
28:50
Speaker 4: and that could point back to something specific. Did they
28:54
Speaker 4: show up with these items in p that is a
28:57
Speaker 4: perpetrator perhaps, or is this something that was left behind
29:00
Speaker 4: as a result of dragging trash cans out the road.
29:04
Speaker 4: But here's the problem, and this has been one of
29:06
Speaker 4: the problems all the way along, Nancy, is that if
29:09
Speaker 4: they didn't do it in the beginning, there's a problem
29:13
Speaker 4: because you can't go back and undo what you haven't done.
29:17
Speaker 4: It just doesn't make sense. And the fact that he
29:20
Speaker 4: has stated he being to share that these are of
29:23
Speaker 4: no consequence, I beg to differ, sir. They are significant
29:28
Speaker 4: concepts because every bit of information that you can glean
29:31
Speaker 4: from the scene is important to the investigation.
29:35
Speaker 1: Fince the various conveyances that may have been used. For instance,
29:40
Speaker 1: I get the significance of a wheelchair. I get that
29:44
Speaker 1: did they bring it? Did she already have a wheelchair?
29:47
Speaker 1: But I don't get the significance of, for instance, a dolly.
29:51
Speaker 1: What would that be for now? One reason this could
29:56
Speaker 1: be critical is because it does seem as if I
29:59
Speaker 1: can advance, was used. Could we see the blood video
30:04
Speaker 1: the video not the still because Brian, it seems as
30:09
Speaker 1: if the blood trail stops where the conveyance the tracks
30:14
Speaker 1: pick up. So was she then put in some sort
30:19
Speaker 1: of conveyance, a wheelchair, something movable. Why do I care, Brian,
30:26
Speaker 1: because someone else would likely have had to help the
30:30
Speaker 1: porch guy. He couldn't do all of this on his own,
30:34
Speaker 1: or could he?
30:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, this would definitely speak to a second subject being
30:41
Speaker 5: there on the scene. And as Joe Scott Morgan pointed out,
30:45
Speaker 5: identifying the width of that wheelbase, you know, is going
30:49
Speaker 5: to help identify what that object was that was creating
30:55
Speaker 5: those marks, and then can provide us a little bit
30:57
Speaker 5: more of an insight into you know, the weight required
31:01
Speaker 5: to create a depth of a tread that deep, and
31:05
Speaker 5: how far they went? You know, where did it go?
31:08
Speaker 5: Where did it begin? Where did it stop? So I
31:11
Speaker 5: think it's very possible that some sort of conveyance was
31:14
Speaker 5: used to bring Missus Guthrie from the door to the vehicle.
31:19
Speaker 1: Another issue that has reared its head is a previous
31:24
Speaker 1: armed robbery in the same area. Let's see the video
31:28
Speaker 1: footage of that. Interesting this seems to have appeared in
31:34
Speaker 1: broad daylight, very very different from them in the current case.
31:40
Speaker 1: Dave Matt explained to me what this prior robbery.
31:44
Speaker 5: Is, Nancy.
31:45
Speaker 3: This group of robbers show up at the door, but
31:47
Speaker 3: they do it in a very tactical way. First, a
31:50
Speaker 3: woman goes to the door claiming to have a package
31:53
Speaker 3: from Amazon. The homeowners do not answer the door as
31:57
Speaker 3: they're not expecting anything from Amazon, so the person goes away.
32:03
Speaker 3: A couple of weeks later, Okay, two weeks go by,
32:06
Speaker 3: this is all in September. Two weeks go by and
32:09
Speaker 3: the same woman in the same outfit shows up again,
32:12
Speaker 3: but this time she's got a van that can be
32:15
Speaker 3: seen on the ring doorbell camera out by the road
32:17
Speaker 3: and a guy is in it. Now she goes to
32:19
Speaker 3: the door again blaming to have an Amazon. This time
32:23
Speaker 3: there are occupants of the home are not there, so
32:25
Speaker 3: there's nobody in this house. The second time, this woman
32:28
Speaker 3: shows up at the door. Forty five minutes later, Nancy,
32:33
Speaker 3: this woman comes back. This time she's got men with
32:36
Speaker 3: her in the van. The men go to the side
32:39
Speaker 3: of the house and break in. They go into the home.
32:43
Speaker 3: They get a safe, They get another jewelry and valuables
32:47
Speaker 3: inside the home, and again remember this home is not
32:50
Speaker 3: currently occupied, the owners are on vacation, the daughter is
32:53
Speaker 3: away from the house. They the robbers. They ended up
32:57
Speaker 3: pepper spraying the little dog. Pepper sprayng the dog. They
33:03
Speaker 3: then escape and it took about two weeks for police
33:08
Speaker 3: to track down the woman who was pretending to be
33:10
Speaker 3: the Amazon delivery person. But the other three have not
33:14
Speaker 3: been arrested. And this happened in the Catalina Foot Hills area,
33:18
Speaker 3: not far ten minutes from Nancy Guthrie's house.
33:21
Speaker 1: There are startling similarities, but overall, I would say a
33:26
Speaker 1: lot of dissimilarities. In that case, I find it critical
33:31
Speaker 1: to you, Fitzgibbons, that the other three perps were not apprehended,
33:38
Speaker 1: and there are theories that as many as five purps
33:43
Speaker 1: are responsible in the Nancy Guthrie kidnap. But Fitzgibbons, this
33:48
Speaker 1: would mean that there are three perps still floating around
33:51
Speaker 1: from this last armed robbery. There are a lot of
33:54
Speaker 1: dissimilarities as well, Brian, what do you make of it?
33:58
Speaker 5: Yeah, certainly definitely enough here to at least tell us
34:03
Speaker 5: that what's possible and what's possible to avoid detection and
34:10
Speaker 5: apprehension by law enforcement right that there are three of
34:13
Speaker 5: these subjects still walking amongst the residents of Tucson right now.
34:19
Speaker 7: Someone needs to do the right thing. We are in agony, Yeah,
34:26
Speaker 7: we are in agony. It is unbearable and to think
34:38
Speaker 7: of what she went through. I wake up every night,
34:43
Speaker 7: in the middle of the night, every night, and in
34:49
Speaker 7: the darkness, I imagine her terror, and it is unthinkable,
35:02
Speaker 7: but those thoughts demand to be thought, and I will
35:08
Speaker 7: hid in my face that she needs to come home now.
35:16
Speaker 1: Yes, that from my friends at today YouTube Savannah issuing
35:23
Speaker 1: another plea, begging people for help and describing the anguish
35:30
Speaker 1: her family has been endearing since her mother vanished in
35:35
Speaker 1: the middle of the night. At this hour, we understand
35:40
Speaker 1: that l E is re examining potential headlights behind the
35:47
Speaker 1: porch guy's shoulder. Let's take a look at that, and
35:50
Speaker 1: if possible, control room, please slow mow the porch guy. There.
35:56
Speaker 1: You see the lights that many people observe first looking
36:00
Speaker 1: light head lights. Keep watching the lights, the porch guy
36:06
Speaker 1: fumbling around. Many people with the naked eye believe that
36:12
Speaker 1: they see the lights actually moving, and if you look carefully,
36:19
Speaker 1: it does appear as if a car is inching forward.
36:24
Speaker 1: We also see the porch guy looking back over his
36:28
Speaker 1: shoulder at the lights. Last night, we heard theories that
36:33
Speaker 1: those lights were actually solar powered lights that would gain
36:37
Speaker 1: power during the day from the sun and then they
36:40
Speaker 1: would shine during the night, we heard theories that those
36:45
Speaker 1: were lights that are continuously kept on at a construction site.
36:49
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, take a listen to our
36:51
Speaker 1: friend mister Lemie, Nancy Guthrie's neighbor.
36:55
Speaker 2: If you're on Escalante and you directly there from Nancy's
37:01
Speaker 2: home up the street, that kind of there's a there's
37:05
Speaker 2: a cul de sac above. If this on this camera
37:09
Speaker 2: view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house
37:15
Speaker 2: at the very very top of that cul de sac.
37:18
Speaker 2: That's where construction is occurring.
37:21
Speaker 1: Joining us tonight, Brian fitz Gibbons, Director Operations USP, A
37:25
Speaker 1: nationwide security leading a team of investigators around the world
37:30
Speaker 1: finding and extracting missing people. Former marine Iraqi war ve.
37:37
Speaker 1: What would be the significance if in fact those lights
37:42
Speaker 1: are moving.
37:44
Speaker 5: Yeah, it does appear to me that these lights are moving.
37:48
Speaker 5: And it's important to remember when you see this now
37:51
Speaker 5: in regular speed and you see the lights appear, there's
37:55
Speaker 5: quite a bit of vegetation on that side of Misco
38:00
Speaker 5: three's property, so it's very plausible that that vehicle is
38:04
Speaker 5: coming down Escalante and then the lights are hidden and
38:09
Speaker 5: obscured by the trees there.
38:11
Speaker 1: Fitz did you explain the significance.
38:13
Speaker 5: If they're moving, the significance there would be It would
38:17
Speaker 5: certainly add credibility to the theory that there was a
38:22
Speaker 5: second perpetrator here and that that was indeed a vehicle
38:28
Speaker 5: that was involved in this abduction.
38:31
Speaker 1: Joining us tonight special guest Jeff Martin. He's joining us
38:35
Speaker 1: out of Grand Rapid. Certified digital forensics expert over twenty
38:39
Speaker 1: years of experience. He specializes in cell phone forensics, computer forensics, cybersecurity,
38:45
Speaker 1: and more. Instructor Davenport University Wow. You can find him
38:52
Speaker 1: at Jeff Martin c FCEE and at Jeffrey Michael Martin
38:57
Speaker 1: on instat at Jeff March. Jeff, thank you for being
39:00
Speaker 1: with us tonight. The possibility that those lights are in
39:05
Speaker 1: fact a vehicle opens up a wide range of potential
39:12
Speaker 1: digital evidence as to who was up there, not who
39:16
Speaker 1: was at her doorstep, but who was up there explain.
39:22
Speaker 8: Right, So it ultimately opens up the crime scene. Right
39:27
Speaker 8: If that vehicle or those lights are you believed to
39:32
Speaker 8: be involved in the event, then that opens up the
39:35
Speaker 8: crime scene to that construction site, and there is a
39:40
Speaker 8: potential for investigating digital evidence footprints in and around that
39:45
Speaker 8: construction site.
39:46
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, Jeff Martin, the degree to which the
39:51
Speaker 1: construction site was secured. I mean, think about it, Jeff,
39:56
Speaker 1: we didn't even have this video until somehow. It's Franklin
40:00
Speaker 1: a miracle that, out of the literally trillions of data points, Google,
40:06
Speaker 1: not law enforcement, but Google managed to find Nancy Guthrie's
40:10
Speaker 1: ports video and then resurrect, like Lazarus, for Pete's sake,
40:14
Speaker 1: resurrect the video. So I see no reason why law
40:19
Speaker 1: enforcement would have secured the construction site as a potential
40:24
Speaker 1: tertiary crime scene.
40:27
Speaker 8: Correct, I mean, you know, ultimately, until they know that
40:30
Speaker 8: that site is potentially involved, then they may have not
40:35
Speaker 8: identified it as something to even investigate, let alone secure
40:39
Speaker 8: as a crime scene.
40:40
Speaker 1: Let's take a look at the map again, Jeff. And
40:43
Speaker 1: I'm not throwing a stone at right now anyway at
40:46
Speaker 1: Nanosu's outfit, because at that time I don't believe that
40:50
Speaker 1: they had any reason to secure the construction site, although
40:53
Speaker 1: it should certainly have been investigated right at the beginning,
40:56
Speaker 1: along with the vacant property. But look at location the
41:01
Speaker 1: middle red marker Guthrie home above it, the construction site,
41:07
Speaker 1: and if life is given says he sees movement. It
41:12
Speaker 1: would have been the car moving forward toward the cul
41:17
Speaker 1: de sac and toward Nancy Guthrie's home. Now, how does
41:21
Speaker 1: that fit in Jeff Martin with potentially capturing digital events.
41:28
Speaker 8: Well, you take digital digital evidence can be just about
41:31
Speaker 8: anywhere these days. And you know, I'll give the example
41:34
Speaker 8: of cell phone digital evidence, cell phone tower digital evidence,
41:40
Speaker 8: just that location alone. The construction site location alone could
41:44
Speaker 8: be operating on a different cell phone tower, for example,
41:48
Speaker 8: and if law enforcement hadn't identified that early on, then
41:52
Speaker 8: that may be something that they could go back and
41:54
Speaker 8: look at as far as digital evidence there. Then you
41:58
Speaker 8: take the vehicle for example, depending on what type of
42:00
Speaker 8: vehicle is, there could be a lot of digital evidence
42:03
Speaker 8: from that vehicle. Now unfortunately we can't really identify what
42:07
Speaker 8: type of make model the vehicle is, but you know,
42:11
Speaker 8: that's just another avenue of digital evidence. Take the construction
42:15
Speaker 8: site alone. Does the construction site have digital devices on
42:21
Speaker 8: the construction site? Some construction site these days they leave
42:25
Speaker 8: equipment on site. Are those is that equipment secured with
42:30
Speaker 8: you know, digital devices? Does the construction company have maybe
42:33
Speaker 8: Wi Fi set up so that the construction workers have
42:36
Speaker 8: the ability to you know, communicate. You know, there are
42:39
Speaker 8: a lot of different things that we could speculate on
42:43
Speaker 8: as far as what type of digital evidence could be
42:45
Speaker 8: available at that site.
42:47
Speaker 1: Okay, Jeff Martin, you just went deaf coom four on me.
42:49
Speaker 1: You're going warp speed. Could you explain what you were
42:52
Speaker 1: saying about digital evidence at the construction site?
43:00
Speaker 7: Right?
43:00
Speaker 9: So?
43:01
Speaker 8: You know, some construction companies, in order to secure their equipment,
43:05
Speaker 8: you know, they want to leave their equipment on site
43:07
Speaker 8: so they're not transporting it back and forth. Some of
43:10
Speaker 8: them secure their construction sites with digital devices, such as
43:15
Speaker 8: security cameras or digital lots and such. Some construction companies
43:22
Speaker 8: today use digital time cards, where employees show up and
43:26
Speaker 8: they tap a digital device to enter in their time
43:30
Speaker 8: on site or off site. You know, I'm just spitballing here.
43:34
Speaker 8: With the amount of digital evidence that I've seen in
43:37
Speaker 8: numerous investigations, What could be or what as I would
43:42
Speaker 8: have as a law enforcement investigation, what I would be
43:44
Speaker 8: thinking about trying to determine what type of digital evidence
43:48
Speaker 8: would be available at that construction site.
43:52
Speaker 1: You know, you also mentioned for all we know, and
43:55
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible the construction site was most connected to
44:02
Speaker 1: a different cell tower. Why would that be significant?
44:07
Speaker 8: Well, I just use that as an example, right, so
44:10
Speaker 8: you know, I'm sure the law enforcement has done a
44:13
Speaker 8: cell phone tower investigation surrounding Savannah or Nancy Gothrie's home,
44:19
Speaker 8: and what that entails is they typically try to determine,
44:24
Speaker 8: you know, on the night of or the morning of
44:26
Speaker 8: February first, what cell phones were connected to the tower
44:30
Speaker 8: that services that home. That I think would have been
44:34
Speaker 8: done by law enforcement early on. Now, one possibility, if
44:39
Speaker 8: there is more than one tower servicing the area surrounding
44:43
Speaker 8: Nancy Gothrie's home, is that construction site might be serviced
44:48
Speaker 8: by a different cell phone tower than Nancy Gothrie's home.
44:54
Speaker 8: Is just based on the serviceability and the signal strength
44:58
Speaker 8: of cell phone towers. It's just in the realm of possibility,
45:02
Speaker 8: something that I would think about if I was an
45:04
Speaker 8: investigator in this investigation.
45:07
Speaker 1: In addition to the lights behind the porch guy's shoulder
45:13
Speaker 1: reportedly moving inching seemingly forward. Now, of course the FBI
45:19
Speaker 1: will be able to enhance that, no end, how do
45:22
Speaker 1: they do that? Jeff Martin.
45:24
Speaker 8: Ultimately there's software out there that video experts will use
45:30
Speaker 8: to enhance video and you know, get rid of the noise,
45:35
Speaker 8: get rid of the clarification, mess with the lighting so
45:39
Speaker 8: that you can enhance the area of the video where
45:43
Speaker 8: the headlights are. You know, they can get they can
45:47
Speaker 8: adjust contrasts and saturation, colors and all of those levels
45:51
Speaker 8: that are usually present in video.
45:54
Speaker 1: Also, we are learning that signal jammers emit a certain frequency.
46:01
Speaker 1: And as I was researching last night, I saw sign
46:06
Speaker 1: Wizard six on Twitter come up with a very unique
46:11
Speaker 1: theory that dogs can be affected or respond to such frequencies.
46:20
Speaker 1: That made me think about what neighbor Jeff Lami told us.
46:26
Speaker 2: Preceding the event. There were some evenings where our dogs
46:29
Speaker 2: woke up, which was highly unusual. We don't know if
46:32
Speaker 2: there's a correlation. I know the FBI and the investigators
46:36
Speaker 2: have asked for cameras and camera footage. All the neighbors
46:40
Speaker 2: have shared camera footage and any recollection they have. The
46:45
Speaker 2: dogs did rouse and I took them out. There's a
46:48
Speaker 2: image of me on camera. I did heard nothing or
46:52
Speaker 2: saw nothing. But you know, animals can be especially dogs
46:55
Speaker 2: can be hyper sensitive. Yeah, and also some of the
47:00
Speaker 2: other evenings that we've been questioned about. I'm working from
47:03
Speaker 2: memory again, I believe January eleventh was another date that
47:06
Speaker 2: was in question. So we had this activity at that time,
47:12
Speaker 2: and you know human nature, we just folowed away and
47:16
Speaker 2: didn't really think about this until we were asked to
47:19
Speaker 2: review our video and then had this recollection and saw
47:24
Speaker 2: this correlation which was very unusual.
47:26
Speaker 1: On January eleven and January thirty one, both nights, your
47:32
Speaker 1: dog's uncharacteristically wanted to go outside. Yes, and that was
47:38
Speaker 1: very atypical. Yes, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining us
47:53
Speaker 1: now special guest doctor Kendall Crowns. He is a chief
47:56
Speaker 1: medical examiner in Terrance County, Texas. That's Fort Worth, never
48:00
Speaker 1: lack of business in the Morgue there. He is the
48:04
Speaker 1: star of hit podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. He is
48:08
Speaker 1: the esteemed Lecturer at the Burnette School of Medicine at TCU.
48:13
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendle Crowns, thank you for being with us. What
48:17
Speaker 1: do you make of the suggestion that dogs, as we know,
48:23
Speaker 1: we see them when they respond to dog whistles that
48:26
Speaker 1: people can't hear, and they react very violently, very agitated
48:33
Speaker 1: when they hear those whistles. Would they respond or start
48:38
Speaker 1: barking or want to go outside. If a signal GM
48:41
Speaker 1: or emitted a similar frequency, well.
48:45
Speaker 10: The answer is yes. Any radio frequency that may be
48:48
Speaker 10: inaudible to human beings can be picked up by dogs
48:52
Speaker 10: because because of their sensitive hearing, they can hear a
48:55
Speaker 10: wide spectrum of sounds that we cannot even hear or
48:58
Speaker 10: whatever be able to hear. And these sounds emitted by
49:02
Speaker 10: radio frequency devices can disrupt their sleep, cause agitation, and
49:07
Speaker 10: make them upset and cause them to bark. So it
49:10
Speaker 10: could very well be a radio frequency that's being omitted
49:13
Speaker 10: can't be heard by human beings, but the dogs pick
49:16
Speaker 10: up on it and it upsets them and they start
49:18
Speaker 10: barking or wake up and start barking. So yes, dogs
49:21
Speaker 10: are very sensitive to things like that.
49:25
Speaker 1: So they're not only their noses, but their ears are
49:30
Speaker 1: much much more sensitive than those of humans.
49:35
Speaker 10: Yes, a dog's hearing is very acute. They can pick
49:39
Speaker 10: up very high pitched sounds, very low sounds that are
49:42
Speaker 10: way beyond the spectrum of human hearing. So dogs are
49:46
Speaker 10: very sensitive to their environment in numerous ways that we
49:49
Speaker 10: won't even ever understand.
49:51
Speaker 1: Probably, you know, I'm very curious Saw Brave has gibbons.
49:56
Speaker 1: If ajam Or was used. There's so much we're going
49:59
Speaker 1: to be able to learn from that. For instance, the
50:02
Speaker 1: direction the part was going. If jammer was used. And
50:07
Speaker 1: now we're having Lemi and other neighbors all stating that
50:12
Speaker 1: their WiFi went out at the same time that Nancy
50:16
Speaker 1: Duthrie was kidnapped. It would it be able to show
50:21
Speaker 1: us a direction, Brian, for instance, if it was jamming
50:24
Speaker 1: along the route.
50:27
Speaker 5: Yeah, we will hopefully be able to get some data
50:31
Speaker 5: from the devices in the houses. These would be the
50:36
Speaker 5: Wi Fi terminals that connect that house to the Internet.
50:40
Speaker 5: That potentially what would be recoverable are those data points
50:45
Speaker 5: of when service was disrupted and that could point to
50:50
Speaker 5: a direction that the jammer came in or went out from.
50:54
Speaker 1: Jeff Martin everyone certified Digital forensics expert, twenty years in
50:59
Speaker 1: the business. Jeff again, thanks for being with us tonight.
51:02
Speaker 1: Now we've heard what doctor Kendall Crown said, medical doctor
51:06
Speaker 1: regarding the possibility the frequency would affect the dogs hearing,
51:10
Speaker 1: But in what other ways could that not have affected
51:17
Speaker 1: the dogs?
51:19
Speaker 8: Well, with regards to the signal jammer, what you potentially
51:24
Speaker 8: could have is dogs are highly receptive to things that
51:27
Speaker 8: we can't hear or things that we can't sense. And
51:30
Speaker 8: if a signal jammer is in operation, you know, they
51:34
Speaker 8: may or may not be able to hear the exact
51:36
Speaker 8: signal gammer itself, but they could be picking up on
51:39
Speaker 8: the residual effect of that signal jammer, such as the
51:43
Speaker 8: devices that are being affected by the signal jammer could
51:47
Speaker 8: be experiencing issues and they're trying to self correct themselves,
51:53
Speaker 8: so they start to speed up a little bit. And
51:56
Speaker 8: you know, when I listened to the doctor described that,
52:00
Speaker 8: that is what came to my mind, is if all
52:03
Speaker 8: of these devices are starting to act different because their
52:07
Speaker 8: signals being jammed, then that is certainly something that I
52:10
Speaker 8: could see. A dog and I'm by no means a
52:13
Speaker 8: dog expert senses as something different, something that that dog
52:17
Speaker 8: has not heard before in the span of his or
52:20
Speaker 8: her life. And that is a potential, you know, indication
52:24
Speaker 8: that something was not right that night and that.
52:29
Speaker 1: Time, guys, another issue has reared its ugly head. Was
52:35
Speaker 1: DNA overlooked on the foliage outside Nancy Guthrie's home? And
52:41
Speaker 1: also tonight what does an Amazon delivery have to do
52:43
Speaker 1: with anything? But first with me, Tammy Ballard, she is
52:47
Speaker 1: a DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation reconstructionist, former
52:52
Speaker 1: DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police Department Crime Lab. Okay, Tammy,
52:58
Speaker 1: look with me. See the porch guy grabbing foliage leaves
53:07
Speaker 1: and taking it up to there? You go? Okay, and
53:12
Speaker 1: they call him a professional. I don't buy it. But
53:17
Speaker 1: is there any way, especially in light of the fact
53:20
Speaker 1: that he kept mouthing a bite light. Is there any
53:25
Speaker 1: way having put the byte light in his mouth, taken
53:30
Speaker 1: it out in his mouth, taken it out, then picks
53:33
Speaker 1: up the foliage. We know he's got on gloves, but
53:37
Speaker 1: that does not preclude transfer of DNA from his person
53:41
Speaker 1: to the tips of the fingertips of those gloves. Can
53:45
Speaker 1: you get DNA off foliage? Tammy?
53:49
Speaker 9: Unfortunately, this field is going to be filled with people
53:52
Speaker 9: that will tell you no. But I would challenge any
53:58
Speaker 9: DNA analyst, any investigator to prove that. I don't ever
54:05
Speaker 9: tell somebody no, because unless I've done it and been unsuccessful,
54:11
Speaker 9: I won't say that you can't get DNA. The transfer
54:14
Speaker 9: is there, most likely, but it's a matter of being
54:20
Speaker 9: very cautious, being very thorough and finding that DNA. So
54:26
Speaker 9: I have done a lot of items in my lifetime,
54:30
Speaker 9: thousands of items I've worked on for DNA, and I've
54:34
Speaker 9: had some strange requests, and I've blown my own mind,
54:38
Speaker 9: if you will, because sometimes like we used to say, no,
54:42
Speaker 9: we can't get DNA from rocks. Now you can get
54:45
Speaker 9: DNA from rocks. It just has to have a case
54:48
Speaker 9: that brings it forward where somebody actually does the DNA
54:51
Speaker 9: and says, oh, look, yes we can and this is
54:53
Speaker 9: a probative item.
54:55
Speaker 8: So I would say that those.
54:57
Speaker 9: Plants should be evaluated for DNA and hope they could
55:01
Speaker 9: recover them with the technology that is available today.
55:05
Speaker 1: Something like MVAC might be a value. Well you know what,
55:10
Speaker 1: Timmy Ballard, You're right, you just blew my mind. I
55:12
Speaker 1: didn't think of trying an MVAC. And it's so obvious.
55:16
Speaker 1: How would an MVAC potentially work on foliage.
55:21
Speaker 9: It depends on the surface area of those leaves on
55:25
Speaker 9: that foliage. But you know, the MVAC is designed to
55:28
Speaker 9: collect every cell. You could also use an alternate light
55:31
Speaker 9: source if it is transferred from saliva. That's something that
55:35
Speaker 9: should give you some sort of fluorescence to maybe hone
55:39
Speaker 9: in on a particular area so you can kind of
55:42
Speaker 9: control your surface area, but the MVAC is designed to
55:45
Speaker 9: collect every cell.
55:47
Speaker 5: I don't know if MVAC.
55:49
Speaker 9: Has been used on plant material, but I bet you
55:52
Speaker 9: they'd be willing to try. So it has to be
55:55
Speaker 9: somebody who's willing to go forward and say, you know what,
55:58
Speaker 9: we haven't tried it, so we can't say no.
56:01
Speaker 1: Well, you brought up another theory, a possibility of using
56:04
Speaker 1: alternate light light source, and what she's talking about this
56:07
Speaker 1: is what it would look like. You typically do it
56:11
Speaker 1: in the dark or semi darkness, and you shine an
56:14
Speaker 1: alternate light source, which means basically, not your lamp, not
56:19
Speaker 1: your overhead light. It's a do any of you remember
56:24
Speaker 1: black light posters something like that. That's what you see
56:29
Speaker 1: DNA saliva and other DNA. They fluoresce. They fluoresce, that's
56:35
Speaker 1: a verb like fluorescent light. They fluoresce, and you see
56:39
Speaker 1: them in the semi darkness when you use this alternate
56:43
Speaker 1: light source. I don't see why that would not work
56:47
Speaker 1: on plants. Skeptical regarding an MVACT, but I don't see
56:51
Speaker 1: why als would not work on those plants if there
56:56
Speaker 1: is DNA there. DNA is very sensitive. I've been holding
57:00
Speaker 1: this pen my DNA is on it. If I take
57:03
Speaker 1: a bite light out of my mouth repeatedly and put
57:06
Speaker 1: it back in, I'm getting my saliva on my fingertips.
57:10
Speaker 1: Then you pick up the foliage. It's just that simple.
57:15
Speaker 1: If the foliage has been secured and taken into evidence,
57:21
Speaker 1: which I doubt because we didn't get this video until
57:24
Speaker 1: weeks later from Google. But you know you brought this up,
57:29
Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard. You invited this question. What's one of the
57:33
Speaker 1: craziest things you've been asked to evaluate for DNA.
57:40
Speaker 9: Well, I think I'm probably one of the I think
57:42
Speaker 9: I'm the only DNA analyst in the country, maybe the world,
57:48
Speaker 9: who was able to obtain DNA from melted biological tissue
57:53
Speaker 9: for the Cartel. So we had two individuals that were
57:57
Speaker 9: melted in acid, and I obtained a DNA profile from
58:03
Speaker 9: the melted tissue.
58:05
Speaker 5: So it was probably.
58:07
Speaker 9: My most unique and most difficult I've had a lot
58:10
Speaker 9: of challenging samples. But that's why I will never tell somebody, no,
58:15
Speaker 9: you can't get DNA unless I've tried, or I know
58:19
Speaker 9: somebody who's tried and not succeeded.
58:22
Speaker 1: You know, Timmy Ballard, I know that using an MVAT
58:27
Speaker 1: on foliage is not SOP standard operating procedure, but it
58:33
Speaker 1: has been done, right, it has been done.
58:36
Speaker 9: Yes, it has been done. And I will say on
58:39
Speaker 9: items that I have actually swabbed myself the traditional methods
58:44
Speaker 9: where I've taken two wet swabs and swabbed, you know,
58:48
Speaker 9: let's say a rock that was from a homicide. I've
58:52
Speaker 9: covered some of that surface area is best that I
58:56
Speaker 9: can and obtained results that weren't sufficient for DNA testing
59:02
Speaker 9: or comparison. And someone has used the MVAC after that
59:07
Speaker 9: and obtained sufficient DNA. So it is designed to collect
59:12
Speaker 9: everything that could be missed from swabbing an item.
59:16
Speaker 1: Right, And MVAC is that actually a microbial vacuum system.
59:22
Speaker 1: It's like a handbag, and it has located viruses and
59:27
Speaker 1: toxins on foliage, specifically lime and acorn leaves, so it
59:36
Speaker 1: can pick up DNA off foliage. It's rare, but it
59:41
Speaker 1: has been done, and it can be done very quickly.
59:45
Speaker 1: To Dave Matt, what can you tell me about an
59:48
Speaker 1: electricians permit for work done just before Nancy Guthrie goes missing.
59:55
Speaker 3: During the month of January, Nancy security work was being
59:59
Speaker 3: done by an electionlectrician inside Nancy Guthries' home. An entire
1:00:03
Speaker 3: electrical panel had to be replaced and updated and upgraded.
1:00:07
Speaker 3: That required some special tools, a couple of days of work.
1:00:11
Speaker 3: Don't know how many people were on the electricians crew,
1:00:15
Speaker 3: but we know of at least one certainly because that
1:00:17
Speaker 3: was the contract and the work was finished just before
1:00:21
Speaker 3: Nancy Guthrie went missing.
1:00:24
Speaker 1: Okay, Ryan, it's Gibbons. I don't like coincidences as it
1:00:28
Speaker 1: relates to disappearances or violent crimes. I don't like coincidences.
1:00:34
Speaker 1: An electricians work crew was in and around her home
1:00:37
Speaker 1: and then she goes missing. That's got to be investigated.
1:00:42
Speaker 5: Absolutely. They're going to know the name of everybody associated
1:00:48
Speaker 5: with that account and also really who knew that the
1:00:54
Speaker 5: work was being done at missus Guthries and who have
1:00:56
Speaker 5: potentially could have known the connection to Savannah. You know
1:00:59
Speaker 5: who you saw the sales slip, who even saw the
1:01:02
Speaker 5: work order? Everyone at that contractor will certainly be interviewed
1:01:08
Speaker 5: and looked.
1:01:09
Speaker 1: At day Matt let me throw you and Jeff Martin
1:01:15
Speaker 1: unlike you, Rinch, let me throw you a curveball. Was
1:01:20
Speaker 1: there an Amazon delivery at Nancy Guthrie's home the morning
1:01:26
Speaker 1: before she's kidnapped. She's kidnapped that night.
1:01:29
Speaker 3: That morning, Nancy, what appears to be an Amazon delivery
1:01:35
Speaker 3: box is pictured. There you go on the front porch
1:01:40
Speaker 3: where we found the video of porch got This is
1:01:43
Speaker 3: shocking evidence that it was there.
1:01:45
Speaker 1: Okay, of course we're going to have to time it
1:01:48
Speaker 1: out and find out when the package got there. But
1:01:51
Speaker 1: to Jeff Martin, digital forensics expert instructor Davenport University, Jeff Martin,
1:02:00
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that the delivery driver spotted anyone skulking around.
1:02:07
Speaker 1: But Jeff, we know that authorities have asked for information
1:02:14
Speaker 1: about vehicles and more as it relates to ten a m.
1:02:21
Speaker 1: The morning she's kidnapped. Later that night, ten am. Isn't
1:02:28
Speaker 1: it true that many delivery trucks such as Amazon, keeps
1:02:32
Speaker 1: video like an Uber car keeps a video of what's
1:02:37
Speaker 1: happening to say, yes, here, I am here, I did
1:02:41
Speaker 1: deliver your package. So you telling me you didn't get
1:02:44
Speaker 1: it is a lie. Here I am doing it. Many
1:02:47
Speaker 1: of them have video to document deliveries.
1:02:50
Speaker 8: Right, Definitely, images, Nancy. You know a standard practice is
1:02:57
Speaker 8: the Amazon driver will take a picture of the package
1:03:00
Speaker 8: sitting where they left it right, just to prove that
1:03:03
Speaker 8: they delivered it. And Amazon vehicles. I work a lot
1:03:07
Speaker 8: of cases involving Amazon delivery trucks getting into accidents, and
1:03:12
Speaker 8: not a lot of them have camera recording type systems,
1:03:16
Speaker 8: but that's certainly a possibility. Other things to note are
1:03:22
Speaker 8: not just Amazon delivers for Amazon. Amazon farms out a
1:03:27
Speaker 8: lot of their deliveries. I, you know, happen to have
1:03:30
Speaker 8: a wife that we tend to get Amazon packages almost
1:03:33
Speaker 8: every day, and a lot of times the Amazon delivery
1:03:38
Speaker 8: drivers are in personal vehicles or rented vehicles, and of
1:03:43
Speaker 8: course all of those vehicles have the potential to have
1:03:46
Speaker 8: video recording devices built into them as well as you know,
1:03:50
Speaker 8: other digital evidence. But also the Amazon driver. You would
1:03:55
Speaker 8: be really important to talk to the Amazon driver, you know,
1:03:58
Speaker 8: determine who would who delivered the package and what did
1:04:02
Speaker 8: you see that when you delivered that package. Did you
1:04:06
Speaker 8: see an electric you know, a construction vehicle parked near
1:04:09
Speaker 8: the house. Did you see an electricians vehicle parked near
1:04:12
Speaker 8: the house. You know, we had the electrical repair conducted
1:04:16
Speaker 8: on the on Discovery's house shortly before the incident. Maybe
1:04:21
Speaker 8: one of their vehicles came back to surveil or you know,
1:04:26
Speaker 8: there's all kinds of possibilities with regards to digital not
1:04:29
Speaker 8: just digital. Evin.
1:04:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I'm looking at specifically, not that they may
1:04:33
Speaker 1: or may not have caught the actual perpse strolling along
1:04:36
Speaker 1: the street, but the vehicle, because research reveals Amazon delivery
1:04:40
Speaker 1: vehicles are equipped with AI powered cameras. It is the
1:04:45
Speaker 1: Netrodyne drivery system. It has four high diff lenses with
1:04:50
Speaker 1: a three to sixty degree, a two seventy degree carriage
1:04:55
Speaker 1: of the road, the size, the driver, and they record
1:04:59
Speaker 1: continuously while the ignition is on BAM. So what I
1:05:06
Speaker 1: want to know is when that package arrived and if
1:05:11
Speaker 1: there's anything probative, not just when the Amazon driver pulls
1:05:16
Speaker 1: up to Nancy Guthries's home, but along the route. Do
1:05:21
Speaker 1: you see the possibilities, Brian, It'sgibbons absolutely.
1:05:26
Speaker 5: And you know it's important to remember we have we've
1:05:30
Speaker 5: had time to analyze some of this new this evidence.
1:05:33
Speaker 5: It's been around for a while, right, think about how
1:05:37
Speaker 5: much more time investigators from the FBI now at their
1:05:42
Speaker 5: office in Phoenix able to dissect and analyze this. I
1:05:47
Speaker 5: think that this, you know, if you see what we
1:05:50
Speaker 5: can do here there will be more possibilities with federal investigators.
1:05:55
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the
1:05:58
Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy three, please call anonymous FBI eight hundred
1:06:04
Speaker 1: two two five five three two four two two five
1:06:08
Speaker 1: five three two four or five two zero eight eight
1:06:13
Speaker 1: two seven four sixty three five two zero eight eight
1:06:16
Speaker 1: two seven four six three. There is a one point
1:06:20
Speaker 1: two plus million dollar reward for information leading to the
1:06:25
Speaker 1: whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. Thank you to our guest tonight,
1:06:29
Speaker 1: but especially to you for being with us and helping
1:06:32
Speaker 1: us keep the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray
1:06:38
Speaker 1: signing off, but I'll see tomorrow night, and until then,
1:06:41
Speaker 1: good night for me.