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Drug Counselor Supplies Friends Star Matthew Perry's Dope Gets Slap on Wrist · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:07
Speaker 2: Torpedo to the state, the so called drug addiction counselor
0:14
Speaker 2: who is really just a doper a pusher, The same
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Speaker 2: guy who supplied Matthew Perry, the TV icon to star
0:25
Speaker 2: our Friends with his dope, his ketamine, just sentenced in
0:31
Speaker 2: the court of law. If you can call it that
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Speaker 2: to a slap on the wrist. I'm Nancy Grace. This
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Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
0:40
Speaker 2: with us. Yes, Eric Fleming, a licensed drug addiction counselor
0:47
Speaker 2: whatever that means, admits to selling fifty one vials of
0:53
Speaker 2: ketamine to Friends star Matthew Perry, including the dose that
0:58
Speaker 2: killed him. But even after admitting guilt, gets a slap
1:04
Speaker 2: on the wrist. In the last days, Fleming sentenced to
1:10
Speaker 2: just two years in prison with good behavior. You'll be
1:13
Speaker 2: out in twelve months. What a letdown? What exactly happened
1:20
Speaker 2: to Friends star Matthew.
1:22
Speaker 3: Perry twenty three n twenty three on radio in part
1:31
Speaker 3: of the drowning across their few drives. That's a twenty
1:35
Speaker 3: three twenty three ms.
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Speaker 4: You can't tell a lot, but I learned something significant.
1:43
Speaker 4: Let's hear that one more time, said.
1:44
Speaker 3: Twenty three N twenty three and radio in part of
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Speaker 3: the drowning across their few drives. That's a twenty three
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Speaker 3: US twenty three sign.
2:00
Speaker 4: Now, some of those numbers are universal. Sometimes you hear
2:03
Speaker 4: numbers across a police ban or on an ems.
2:07
Speaker 5: That are specific to that region.
2:11
Speaker 4: But what I'm hearing that really jumps out at me
2:15
Speaker 4: is response to the drowning. So at the beginning, it
2:20
Speaker 4: was believed that the friends start died of drowning because
2:25
Speaker 4: that's what was reported to them.
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Speaker 5: But what do we really know. Take a listen to
2:31
Speaker 5: our friends at crime Online.
2:32
Speaker 6: The Los Angeles Medical Examiner determined that fifty four year
2:35
Speaker 6: old Matthew Perry died from the acute effects of ketamine.
2:40
Speaker 6: Other contributing factors listed were drowning, coronary artery disease, and
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Speaker 6: the effects of buprenorphine. Buprenorphine is used to treat opioid
2:49
Speaker 6: use disorder. The manner of death has been ruled an accident.
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Speaker 4: Okay, see, I'm a trial lawyer, and that is why
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Speaker 4: the medical examiners and everybody at the r lab would
3:00
Speaker 4: go hide under their desk when they saw my beat
3:03
Speaker 4: up Honda pulling up because they knew I was going
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Speaker 4: to go through it line by line literally to make
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Speaker 4: sense of what they wrote down in their scientific findings.
3:15
Speaker 4: What acute effects of ketamine. Other contributing factors were drowning,
3:20
Speaker 4: coronary artery disease, be prefer blue blue used to treat
3:26
Speaker 4: opioid disorder, manner of death, accident. There's so much there.
3:31
Speaker 4: I could do a whole flow chart on that to
3:34
Speaker 4: try to explain all that to a jury. Luckily we
3:38
Speaker 4: have experts with us. But first I'm going to go
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Speaker 4: to a special guest joining us, Miguel Melndez joining us,
3:43
Speaker 4: senior writer for E T Entertainment tonight.
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Speaker 5: Miguel, what a pleasure to have you on.
3:49
Speaker 4: Man. This sent shock waves through not only Hollywood, but
3:53
Speaker 4: across our country. Because I'm gonna follow this up with
3:55
Speaker 4: our shriek Karen Stark. We think we know Matthew Perry.
4:00
Speaker 4: Why because we've seen him on the big screen, we've
4:02
Speaker 4: seen him on the little screen.
4:04
Speaker 5: We follow him in the tabloids. We think we know
4:07
Speaker 5: him and about his life.
4:08
Speaker 4: We've been following his struggle with addiction, and a lot
4:12
Speaker 4: of people can identify with that if you haven't had
4:15
Speaker 4: that struggle in somebody, you know, somebody close to you
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Speaker 4: has had that struggle. So Matthew Perry was kind of
4:24
Speaker 4: like every man that was struggling with a lot. But
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Speaker 4: to you, Miguel Melendez, I want to go before I
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Speaker 4: get into Matthew Perry himself and how it ended up
4:34
Speaker 4: this way, I want to talk to you about what happened,
4:39
Speaker 4: what surrounded the discovery of Matthew.
4:42
Speaker 5: Perry dead in a hot tub leading up to that.
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Speaker 4: Tell me about the discovery and what came out at
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Speaker 4: the time that he was first discovered dead in the
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Speaker 4: hot tub.
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Speaker 7: Right, So what we know the timeline is that at
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Speaker 7: eleven am, Matthew had played pickleball. At one thirty seven
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Speaker 7: PM is when Matthew was last known to be alive
5:01
Speaker 7: by his personal living assistant to live with him in
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Speaker 7: the Pacific Policy home. He was off to run errand
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Speaker 7: at one thirty seven pm, the living assistant returned home
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Speaker 7: and found Matthew floating face down in the jacuzzi. The
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Speaker 7: assistant jumped into the pool, moved Matthew into the sitting
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Speaker 7: position on the steps of the pool, and found him
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Speaker 7: by the way on the heated side of the pool
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Speaker 7: called nine one one. Paramedics arrived and they moved and
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Speaker 7: they pulled Matthew out of the pos.
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Speaker 4: Okay, hold on, Miguel, You're giving me so much information
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Speaker 4: so quickly. I'm drinking from the fire hydrate because Miguel,
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Speaker 4: you know, I like to dissect every single sentence, and
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Speaker 4: I loved everything you just said as far as factually.
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Speaker 5: What I'm learning. Could you say it again and very slowly? Okay?
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Speaker 5: Did you say the living assistant found him?
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Speaker 8: Yes?
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Speaker 5: Okay. Why did Matthew Perry have a live and assistant?
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Speaker 7: That I can answer you, Nancy. I don't know the
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Speaker 7: exact circumstances of what led to that. I do know
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Speaker 7: that the living assistant based found this report is that
6:01
Speaker 7: he administered the the Detoks drugs on Matthew twice a day.
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Speaker 5: That's important. Miguel Melendez, Hold on, Miguel, hold the thought.
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Speaker 5: Guys with me. He's a senior writer for entertainment tonight.
6:14
Speaker 5: You all know him.
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Speaker 4: Miguel Melndez giving us everything we need to know to
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Speaker 4: analyze this drug ketamine that claimed the life of Matthew Perry.
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Speaker 4: Karen el Starting joining me, renowned TV radio trauma expert
6:30
Speaker 4: at Karenstark dot com, Karen with the c if you're
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Speaker 4: trying to find her, Karen, So, is it like a
6:37
Speaker 4: minder you have with AA that. I don't think they
6:41
Speaker 4: call it a minder. They call it something else, someone
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Speaker 4: that checks in on you. It's like your partner, your buddy,
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Speaker 4: that kind of that's who you call when you have
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Speaker 4: a problem or you're going to relapse.
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Speaker 5: Is that what you think is happening here? He had
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Speaker 5: somebody to help him.
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Speaker 9: It's called a sponsor, and his distance. She was his sponsor.
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Speaker 9: She was his minder, as you said, Nancy, So she
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Speaker 9: was there. She could not stop him from taking something,
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Speaker 9: but certainly was trying. That was her role to make
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Speaker 9: sure that he was on the straight and narrow and
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Speaker 9: sticking to his determination to stop. And he was very
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Speaker 9: open about it. But he really did want to stop
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Speaker 9: taking drugs recreationally.
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Speaker 4: He really did, and he made no secret about it.
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Speaker 4: What led up to that moment Miguel Melndez is describing,
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Speaker 4: But first again, Miguel, could.
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Speaker 5: You tell me the assistant comes in? You said he
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Speaker 5: was near the heater end of the hot tub.
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Speaker 7: Correct, So at four pm, the living assistant walks in
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Speaker 7: from running errands find Matthew Perry floating space down into
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Speaker 7: jacuzi in the heated end of the pool. The assistant
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Speaker 7: jumped into the pool, moved Matthew into the sitting position
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Speaker 7: on the steps of the pool, and called nine one one.
8:06
Speaker 7: Paramedics soon arrived pulled Matthew out of the pool onto
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Speaker 7: the grass, where he was pronounced that at the scene,
8:12
Speaker 7: you know.
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Speaker 5: I think I had at bass akwars Migham Melendez. I
8:15
Speaker 5: was saying hot tub because I've read jacuzie. But was
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Speaker 5: the jacuzzi or the hot tub part of the pool?
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Speaker 5: Was he in a pool or was he in a
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Speaker 5: hot tub or jacuzi?
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Speaker 7: It looked like it was a long pool that has
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Speaker 7: a jacuzi in it.
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Speaker 4: If they're not two separate, Okay, that makes perfect sense. Okay, guys,
8:36
Speaker 4: what led up to this moment? Take a listen to
8:40
Speaker 4: our friend Nicole Parton.
8:42
Speaker 6: Matthew Perry went to his country club to play a
8:45
Speaker 6: game of pickleball with friends around eleven am. Perry returned
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Speaker 6: to his home after the game and was seen by
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Speaker 6: his assistant, who was leaving the house to run errands
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Speaker 6: at one thirty seven pm. At four o'clock PM, the
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Speaker 6: assistant returned to the home. Investigator Jennifer Hertzog says the
9:01
Speaker 6: assistant found Perry floating face down.
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Speaker 1: In the heated end of the pool.
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Speaker 6: The assistant jumped into the pool and moved him into
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Speaker 6: a sitting position on the steps and called nine to
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Speaker 6: one one. Paramedics responded, pulled Perry out of the pool
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Speaker 6: and onto the grass, and pronounced him dead on the
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Speaker 6: scene at four seventeen PM. His stepfather, Keith Morrison is
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Speaker 6: listed as the informant, which means the dateline host is
9:27
Speaker 6: who identified Perry to authorities.
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Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, that must have been so horrible on
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Speaker 4: the stepfather to have to do that. After the struggle
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Speaker 4: he Matthew Perry went through so publicly against substance abuse.
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Speaker 4: Mike McCormick joining me out of LA owner lead investigator
9:45
Speaker 4: mcm Investigations.
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Speaker 5: Mike McCormick, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 4: I'm very curious Matthew Perry had been so open and
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Speaker 4: public about his battle with addiction. Who I mean, even
10:00
Speaker 4: I know about that two thousand miles away, who would
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Speaker 4: be supplying him drugs, ketamine and all the other things
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Speaker 4: in his system.
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Speaker 8: It was either prescribed to him that Kennedy was prescribed,
10:15
Speaker 8: or he's getting it off the street. There's only several
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Speaker 8: ways of doing it. My understanding is that the from
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Speaker 8: he's a assistant or past girlfriend miss edwards that she's
10:30
Speaker 8: been involved with him off and on from about two
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Speaker 8: thousand and six, and she used to purchase his drugs
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Speaker 8: off the street for.
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Speaker 1: It crime stores with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: What a blow to justice. The so called drug addiction
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Speaker 2: counselor Eric Fleming admitted in court documents matt Perry had
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Speaker 2: known him since two thousand and five. He learned Perry
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Speaker 2: wanted ketamine, and he Fleming procured fifty one vials from
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Speaker 2: a dope dealer and sold them at a huge profit
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Speaker 2: to Matthew Perry's assistant to give to Matthew Perry. Perry
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Speaker 2: discovered dead after that same assistant injected him with three
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Speaker 2: shots of ketamine that he got from the drug addiction counselor.
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Speaker 2: I'm saying that with quotes now, Matthew Perry dead.
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Speaker 1: What more do we know?
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Speaker 5: Can that be corroborated that an exit girlfriend would score
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Speaker 5: drugs for him?
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Speaker 7: Well, I don't know that the girlfriend and the assistant
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Speaker 7: are the same people.
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Speaker 8: I do know that there was a.
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Speaker 7: Girlfriend who was his assistant at one time, and she
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Speaker 7: has gone on record and asked that, you know, these
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Speaker 7: doctors be investigated if they were the ones who supplied
11:57
Speaker 7: the ketemine. Now she's gone record and said that if
12:03
Speaker 7: that happened, and then this investigation needs to happen. But
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Speaker 7: whether the assistant and this ex girlfriend how the same people,
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Speaker 7: it doesn't seem to indicate that that's what happened based
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Speaker 7: on the investigation and the details that are in the
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Speaker 7: medical examiner's report.
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Speaker 10: This is Wendy Patrick. It looks like the assistant that
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Speaker 10: it was living with Matthew Perry at the time his
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Speaker 10: death is a man named Kenny A Lasa.
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Speaker 1: Right, not the prior.
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Speaker 10: Not a prior girlfriend or a female assistant.
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Speaker 5: You're right, Wendy Patrick.
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Speaker 4: Guys, you're hearing California prosecutor and author of Why Bad
12:38
Speaker 4: Looks Good, Wendy Patrick at wendypatrickphd dot com, The Star
12:43
Speaker 4: of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ. I was just
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Speaker 4: coming to you, Wendy on another point, a legal point,
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Speaker 4: and that is I saw the trial go down. I
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Speaker 4: don't know if you remember Archie Bunker of all in
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Speaker 4: the family. Yeah, when his son died an overdose, he
13:01
Speaker 4: went after the supplier in the Fulton County Courthouse. And
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Speaker 4: I was just wondering, Wendy about people knowing about his
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Speaker 4: public struggle against addiction.
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Speaker 5: I mean, he wrote about it, he talked about it,
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Speaker 5: very open about it. Who would supply someone battling addiction
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Speaker 5: with drugs. It's a great question.
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Speaker 10: When when you're talking about somebody that's supposed to be
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Speaker 10: a confidant, a sponsor, a helper, a minder. We have
13:32
Speaker 10: all these terminology, these terms that we use. It's very
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Speaker 10: different than a Michael Jackson situation where you actually have
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Speaker 10: somebody medically administering a drug.
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Speaker 5: Who would do it?
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Speaker 10: I would have to say, Nancy, as you and I
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Speaker 10: and our listeners know the same people that are selling
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Speaker 10: drugs to begin with, maybe somebody that doesn't know him
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Speaker 10: well enough, or because it was prescribed lawfully for a
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Speaker 10: medicinal purpose, somebody that honestly, although mistakenly, thought that he
14:00
Speaker 10: needed it or could handle it in different doses. You know, ketamine,
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Speaker 10: if it's being supervised, is used certainly, not very not
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Speaker 10: as often as many other drugs. But you have to
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Speaker 10: believe whether or not. Somebody thought they might be doing
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Speaker 10: him a favor if he was depressed, if he.
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Speaker 5: Was suicidal, they could not have been more wrong.
14:19
Speaker 4: And if it comes out that we can find a
14:22
Speaker 4: supplier or someone who ate it or a bet at him,
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Speaker 4: I need to just think about this. Wendy Patrick about
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Speaker 4: criminal charges joining me right now? Is the expert in
14:33
Speaker 4: this field as far as I'm concerned. The pre eminent
14:37
Speaker 4: expert Doctor William Maroney, Medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert,
14:45
Speaker 4: author of American Narcan, which is on Amazon. Doctor Moroney,
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Speaker 4: take a listen to what we've learned about the autopsy.
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Speaker 6: Matthew Perry's autopsy report does it say how or when
14:59
Speaker 6: Perry used CA prior to his death, but the coroner
15:02
Speaker 6: ruled out the ketamine treatments he had a week and
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Speaker 6: a half before his death because ketamine has a half
15:08
Speaker 6: life of three to four hours or less. The report
15:11
Speaker 6: notes at the high levels of ketamine found in his
15:14
Speaker 6: post mortem blood specimens, the main lethal effects would be
15:18
Speaker 6: from both cardiovascular overstimulation and respiratory depression. Drowning contributes due
15:25
Speaker 6: to the likelihood of submersion into the pool as he
15:28
Speaker 6: lapsed into unconsciousness.
15:30
Speaker 5: And that's not all doctor Moroni, wait for it. I
15:34
Speaker 5: would never have imagine this goes into the cocktail.
15:39
Speaker 6: The autopsy report noted Matthew Perry's history of chronic obstructive
15:43
Speaker 6: pulmonary disease, emphysema, and diabetes. The report mentions Perry's past
15:48
Speaker 6: drug use, but notes Perry had reportedly been cleaned for
15:51
Speaker 6: nineteen months. The New York Post reports that in the
15:55
Speaker 6: autopsy report, a comment is made about Perry undergoing ketamine
15:59
Speaker 6: infusion therapy, most recently one and a half weeks before
16:02
Speaker 6: his death. The report states ketamine treatments are for anxiety
16:06
Speaker 6: and depression, but ketamine in the system couldn't be from
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Speaker 6: the infusion therapy. Doctor Bankkole Johnson, one of the leading
16:14
Speaker 6: neuroscientists and physicians in the field, tells The New York
16:17
Speaker 6: Post that ketamine in Perry's system is more likely from
16:20
Speaker 6: recreational use.
16:21
Speaker 5: Male hormone testosterone injections. And there's one more ingredient.
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Speaker 4: Why was Matthew Perry getting injections of the male hormone
16:35
Speaker 4: testosterone listen.
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Speaker 11: According to Matthew Perry, he had been cleaned for nineteen months,
16:41
Speaker 11: but the daily Mail reports the actor died from an
16:44
Speaker 11: overdose of the party drug ketamine. According to the autopsy report,
16:49
Speaker 11: a detective who attended the scene of Perry's death said, quote,
16:52
Speaker 11: during my investigation, no alcohol, illicit drugs or drug paraphernalia
16:56
Speaker 11: were found unquote. The Daily Mail also claims the fifty
17:00
Speaker 11: oriole was getting injections of the male hormone testosterone, and
17:03
Speaker 11: an unnamed female associate claimed the injections were causing him
17:06
Speaker 11: to be angry and mean for the last couple of weeks.
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Speaker 4: From my point of view, doctor Maroney, as a layperson
17:14
Speaker 4: and not a doctor an MD like you, if something
17:18
Speaker 4: causes you to be angry and mean, it makes me
17:22
Speaker 4: wonder if it also didn't jack up his heart rate,
17:24
Speaker 4: this male testosterone injection. But I mean, I don't know
17:28
Speaker 4: what to make of it, doctor Moroney, Because you've got ketamine,
17:33
Speaker 4: you've got testosterone, you've got the opioid treatment drug.
17:37
Speaker 5: There's so much going on there.
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Speaker 12: What you have is a cocktail of disaster because you
17:44
Speaker 12: probably are dealing with multiple doctors that are not communicating,
17:51
Speaker 12: nobody's coordinating his care. And if he's getting ketamine, as
17:58
Speaker 12: it's said in the alle atopsy, there's ketamine contents in
18:03
Speaker 12: the stomach, that would be ketamine pills. That's a rogue doctor,
18:08
Speaker 12: somebody outside of good practice guidelines giving pills they have
18:14
Speaker 12: no business giving. In addition to ketamine treatments.
18:17
Speaker 4: I mean, is a ketamine used by vets so animals
18:21
Speaker 4: don't have pain during operations.
18:23
Speaker 12: Yeah, it helps with anesthesia for your cats and dogs,
18:27
Speaker 12: but at low doses. It's been shown to be beneficial
18:32
Speaker 12: in a massively unstable major depressive disorder. But guess what
18:39
Speaker 12: that acceptable therapy is nasal It's a nasal spray with
18:45
Speaker 12: your psychiatrist.
18:47
Speaker 4: What you're saying ketamine, which many people believe is just
18:52
Speaker 4: used by veterinarians, Now people are using it, and you're
18:57
Speaker 4: saying that the only approved way for it to be
19:01
Speaker 4: used by people is by a nasal spray.
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Speaker 13: The acceptable SDA approved supervised ketamine treatment is to go
19:11
Speaker 13: see your psychiatrist, have an appointment, get a nasal spray,
19:16
Speaker 13: and stay until you're stable and have a counseling session.
19:20
Speaker 12: What you have here is somebody keeps saying, well, he's
19:23
Speaker 12: in treatment, he's in recovery, he's not getting enough psychosocial
19:27
Speaker 12: therapy because he's impaired, he's impulsive, he's processing poor decisions
19:34
Speaker 12: because he doesn't have that counseling part link to all
19:37
Speaker 12: this medicine.
19:38
Speaker 5: What is ketamine?
19:41
Speaker 12: Ketamine is a class of medicine that works on transmitters
19:48
Speaker 12: called glutamate.
19:49
Speaker 4: Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, speak English man, what speak English?
19:55
Speaker 5: I mean? Is this something I've got to worry about?
19:57
Speaker 5: They're going to have in the halls of my twins
19:59
Speaker 5: high school?
20:00
Speaker 4: I mean, I hear about ecstasy, coke, marijuana, blah blah
20:04
Speaker 4: blah blah.
20:04
Speaker 5: Ketamine.
20:05
Speaker 12: Ketamine's been abused for twenty years in drug culture and
20:09
Speaker 12: drug use.
20:09
Speaker 5: But is it traded freely on the street.
20:12
Speaker 12: It is on the street. You can buy it if
20:14
Speaker 12: you can ask for from your dealer, they'll get you some.
20:18
Speaker 12: But it's FDA approved as a nasal spray, and he's
20:20
Speaker 12: not getting the FDA approved version.
20:22
Speaker 5: Okay, I heard somebody jumping in.
20:24
Speaker 1: Is it windy? R?
20:25
Speaker 5: Karen Stark Karen.
20:26
Speaker 9: It's used as a club drug. It started years ago, Nancy,
20:31
Speaker 9: but it's continuing. People do use it recreationally, but it's
20:36
Speaker 9: exactly a There are a lot of trials going on
20:40
Speaker 9: where they are bychadelics to stop addiction, just the opposite
20:44
Speaker 9: of what we have here and for depression, and that
20:48
Speaker 9: has to be a trial because it's not FDA approved.
20:52
Speaker 12: These are rogue doctors in rogue clinics. The only doctor
20:58
Speaker 12: that's probably legitimate here is the one giving the bupen orphine.
21:01
Speaker 12: That's the hardest word to say, but in order to
21:04
Speaker 12: do that you have to have training. The rest of
21:06
Speaker 12: these people doing ketamine rogue. They're outside the law, they're
21:11
Speaker 12: outside good practice. We saw this with Anna, Nicole Smith,
21:16
Speaker 12: Michael Jackson, Prince, all these rogue doctors treating all these
21:20
Speaker 12: celebrities and you don't know who's around them.
21:23
Speaker 4: Ketamine has been around and being abused for a long time.
21:27
Speaker 4: We just don't know that much about it, and we
21:29
Speaker 4: don't see it as much. We don't it's not soaked
21:33
Speaker 4: into our national understanding as well. But as far as
21:38
Speaker 4: I can remember that it's been called baby food, bump,
21:41
Speaker 4: cat killer, cat valume, fort, dodge, green, green, k kayland ko.
21:47
Speaker 5: There's a million slang words for ketamine.
21:51
Speaker 4: And the first time I ever saw that was when
21:56
Speaker 4: I was prosecuting and somebody had it as an essay
22:00
Speaker 4: eye drug. They were dealing heroin, and they also had
22:03
Speaker 4: vitamin K. And you're gonna laugh at this, Mike McCormick,
22:07
Speaker 4: I said, so, what's wrong with vitamin K? Because I
22:10
Speaker 4: didn't know what that vitamin K was. Kenny Maine and
22:14
Speaker 4: that was oh gosh, I was prosecuting a dope lord
22:18
Speaker 4: and he had a stash of vitamin K.
22:20
Speaker 5: That's the first time I heard about Kennemy.
22:23
Speaker 7: And Matthew Perry was not the first celebrity to be
22:26
Speaker 7: open about the Kedemy therapy session. I mean the week
22:30
Speaker 7: before he died on December first, Christy Keagan was very
22:35
Speaker 7: open about the fact that she underwent the Academy therapy
22:37
Speaker 7: session to celebrate her birthday and she said on Instagram
22:41
Speaker 7: how she saw Spaece and time and for her late son,
22:45
Speaker 7: late son Jack is someone she saw during this therapy session.
22:49
Speaker 7: So Kenymy has kind of like sort of has come
22:53
Speaker 7: into the conscience as of late and now more because
22:57
Speaker 7: of Matthew Perry's death. You're seeing the horror side effects
23:00
Speaker 7: that it can have.
23:01
Speaker 4: So Miguel Melndez from at Joining Us, you're saying that
23:06
Speaker 4: it's common use among celebrities to what fight depression.
23:10
Speaker 7: To fight depression, to figure themselves to use them to
23:13
Speaker 7: use it as a form of therapy. Christy Keahan is
23:16
Speaker 7: far from the only celebrity who has been open about
23:21
Speaker 7: taking or undergoing academy therapy sessions. You have the lights
23:26
Speaker 7: of Sharon Osborne and Pete Davidson who have been open
23:28
Speaker 7: about this. But again, academy therapy session is not dangerous
23:33
Speaker 7: if it's done under supervision, as our doctor seen doctors.
23:37
Speaker 7: Heareff said, when you go rogue, and in this case,
23:41
Speaker 7: it seems to indicate that that's what Matthew Perry did.
23:45
Speaker 7: You're going to see the fatal consequences, consequences, and that's
23:48
Speaker 7: just that's exactly what happened.
23:50
Speaker 13: Here.
23:50
Speaker 4: You're hearing Miguel Melendez, senior writer at and I've got
23:54
Speaker 4: to get everything he said, which is all correct. By
23:57
Speaker 4: the way, explain to me medically, doctor William Moroney, renowned
24:01
Speaker 4: expert in this field. So when you have ketamine treatment
24:06
Speaker 4: with a doctor, you're saying ketamine is.
24:11
Speaker 5: Ingested nasally like through dristand.
24:15
Speaker 4: The spray into your nose, and if it's used any
24:19
Speaker 4: other way than it's rogue.
24:21
Speaker 5: Do I have that right, Maroni?
24:22
Speaker 12: The reason why it's rogue is the FDA approved spray
24:27
Speaker 12: comes with specific conditions that you're observed, that they follow instructions,
24:33
Speaker 12: and that your safety comes first, and you really can't
24:36
Speaker 12: even drive to and from your session. You're supposed to
24:39
Speaker 12: have somebody take care of you. As soon as you
24:41
Speaker 12: let somebody take ketamine pills, Well, it's unobserved, it's uncontrolled,
24:47
Speaker 12: and it's clear there was ketamine in his stomach and
24:50
Speaker 12: his level in his blood was exactly halfway between low
24:56
Speaker 12: anesthesia and high anesthesia. You don't have those levels when
25:01
Speaker 12: you're supervised. And the whole idea that ketamine therapy is
25:07
Speaker 12: matched to a psycho social treatment, a behavioral counseling session.
25:13
Speaker 12: That's where you make the changes. You have better insight,
25:17
Speaker 12: you have better processing and stress, and you're not impulsive.
25:20
Speaker 12: The last thing you want with impulsive behaviors with somebody
25:23
Speaker 12: in addiction is to put them on poposterone. That's insane. Well,
25:30
Speaker 12: everybody knows it makes you feel really good as a man.
25:35
Speaker 12: You're sixty years old, suddenly you feel thirty six, okay,
25:39
Speaker 12: But it comes at the price of frustration and anger
25:44
Speaker 12: and really short tempers. Add that to the impulsivity of
25:48
Speaker 12: substance use disorder and you could have, you know, a
25:53
Speaker 12: dark rabbit hole, a hidden monster in the shadows, and
25:57
Speaker 12: somebody who's not going to listen to somebody when they say, oh,
26:00
Speaker 12: you know, it's taking a few too many ketamine pills.
26:03
Speaker 12: Ketamine spray is not something you do every day. It's
26:07
Speaker 12: once or twice a month with counseling session.
26:09
Speaker 5: And because he had the pills in his stomach still
26:12
Speaker 5: at the time of autopsy, we know it was rogue
26:16
Speaker 5: ketamine and not the type used for infusion treatment. And
26:20
Speaker 5: of course you've got the other factor weighing.
26:22
Speaker 4: Into Matthew Pierre's death, and that is with all these
26:27
Speaker 4: drugs in the system, he gets into the pool, the
26:31
Speaker 4: hot top and it's not the first time.
26:34
Speaker 5: Take a listen to our cut thirteen Now how you
26:39
Speaker 5: doing it?
26:39
Speaker 14: In security from Burverle Hilton, Hi, what going on? I
26:41
Speaker 14: need a paramedic, grandly, I got a forty six year
26:43
Speaker 14: old femail done in the bathroom. But fell up guy
26:45
Speaker 14: right now, But they're requesting paramedic crew. Okay, para fell
26:48
Speaker 14: about there and I'll love rimcdannel. I'm not sure you, fellow.
26:50
Speaker 14: She was in the bathroom with the water fourth fourth
26:52
Speaker 14: sixty four three four I'm sorry. The room four three
26:54
Speaker 14: fourth yeah, okay, they're not youth or anything else.
26:57
Speaker 3: There's rowing four three four three fourth.
26:59
Speaker 14: Yeah, you don't know see a country.
27:01
Speaker 7: Of breathing at all.
27:02
Speaker 14: Apparently she wasn't breathing and she's twenty six year old, but.
27:04
Speaker 10: She was not breathing.
27:05
Speaker 14: Yeah, okay, but gee your breathing now, but I don't know,
27:08
Speaker 14: okay with the person. Thing that called me was guy
27:10
Speaker 14: ray and okay, much out of it. Okay, you know,
27:13
Speaker 14: gontry here to go in there now, Okay, we'll come to.
27:15
Speaker 3: Breathe her fire over there with a person not breathing,
27:17
Speaker 3: they're kind of like the first one to going not breathing.
27:18
Speaker 14: Yeah, that's correct. Okay, we'll get them there for not
27:20
Speaker 14: bringing really give me to the remplaning if I get
27:22
Speaker 14: too pr Yeah, we're going there.
27:23
Speaker 12: Now.
27:24
Speaker 14: Are you getting into the real plank and try to
27:25
Speaker 14: get keep car on truck? Oh I'm sorry, uh no,
27:27
Speaker 14: because you kept hanging up on it, kept bringing it
27:29
Speaker 14: up on. Yeah, okay, right, we're good there you okay, okay,
27:32
Speaker 14: thank give away.
27:33
Speaker 4: And there was water in Whitney Houston's lungs, indicating she
27:37
Speaker 4: was alive when she was submerged underwater, but according to
27:43
Speaker 4: what we learn, the level of cocaine in Whitney Houston's
27:46
Speaker 4: body was not lethal, but it was enough to make
27:51
Speaker 4: her unaware of the fact she was going underwater, and
27:56
Speaker 4: in an eerie twist, the same thing happens to her daughter.
28:01
Speaker 5: Take a listen to Our Cut sixteen.
28:04
Speaker 11: The only child of Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown, Bobby
28:08
Speaker 11: Christina Brown wanted to follow her mother's footsteps as a
28:10
Speaker 11: singer and actress. Tyler Perry cast Bobby Christina Brown in
28:14
Speaker 11: his television series for Better or Worse and had high
28:17
Speaker 11: praise for her work. In her personal life, she became
28:20
Speaker 11: engaged in Nick Gordon, a friend of the family who
28:22
Speaker 11: lived with them from the age of twelve. Never officially
28:25
Speaker 11: adopted by Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown, Bobby Christina Brown
28:28
Speaker 11: referred to him as her big bra online. Their engagement
28:32
Speaker 11: shocked many. On January thirty first, twenty fifteen, Nick Gordon
28:36
Speaker 11: found Bobby Christina face down, unconscious in a bathtub in
28:39
Speaker 11: her home in Alfaretta, Georgia.
28:40
Speaker 4: And then, just recently, we lose another celebrity, Aaron Carter
28:46
Speaker 4: in Our Cut twenty.
28:46
Speaker 11: One as the younger brother of Nick Carter of the
28:49
Speaker 11: Bank Street Boys. Aaron Carter had a connection to the
28:51
Speaker 11: big time. He could sing, he could dance, and he
28:54
Speaker 11: had the look as with most teen idols when they're
28:57
Speaker 11: fifteen minutes is up. Aeron Carter struggled. His first stint
29:00
Speaker 11: in a treatment facility was announced by his manager when
29:02
Speaker 11: the singer was just twenty three. Then a year later,
29:05
Speaker 11: it was announced that he completed a twenty eight day
29:07
Speaker 11: rehab stint at the Betty Ford Center. On November fourth,
29:10
Speaker 11: twenty twenty two, Aaron Carter's housekeeper found his body in
29:13
Speaker 11: the bathtub at his home. The Los Angeles County Department
29:16
Speaker 11: of Medical Examiner Corner ruled cause of death was attributed
29:20
Speaker 11: to drowning after inhaling die floro ethane and taking the
29:24
Speaker 11: generic form of the brand named Xanax. The report also
29:27
Speaker 11: indicated the Carter was incapacitated while in the bathtub due
29:30
Speaker 11: to the effects of the drugs he took, which contributed
29:33
Speaker 11: to his death by drowning. Aaron Carter was thirty four.
29:36
Speaker 4: You know Winny Patrick, California prosecutor and author. So many people,
29:42
Speaker 4: not just celebrities, die in pools and hot tubs after
29:47
Speaker 4: too many drugs or too much alcohol.
29:50
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's so unfortunate. You know, we only hear about
29:53
Speaker 10: some of these famous people because they're famous. Think about
29:56
Speaker 10: how many men and women, friends, neighbor's family members die
30:00
Speaker 10: in the same way. But maybe don't just grab headlines.
30:04
Speaker 10: It's one of the reasons we always want to reach
30:06
Speaker 10: out sooner rather than later for people that are struggling.
30:09
Speaker 10: And I like the way in that last flip they
30:11
Speaker 10: talked a little bit about what happens after the fame.
30:14
Speaker 7: You know.
30:14
Speaker 10: One of the things that Matthew Perry said, he said,
30:17
Speaker 10: taking kay is like being hit in the head with
30:20
Speaker 10: a giant happy shovel, But the hangover outweighed the benefits.
30:24
Speaker 10: And that's part of what I think celebrities are getting
30:27
Speaker 10: better at explaining and that yes, perhaps they're self medicating,
30:31
Speaker 10: but it's not worth it in the end. And that's
30:33
Speaker 10: one of the messages that Matthew Perry wanted to leave
30:35
Speaker 10: us with.
30:35
Speaker 4: Karen start joining us a renowned psychologist. Karen, we know
30:39
Speaker 4: that Matthew Perry told everyone he had been clean going
30:45
Speaker 4: on two years. Is that common for addicts to insist
30:51
Speaker 4: their claim.
30:51
Speaker 9: Is tremendous amounts of denio Nancy, because they really are
30:56
Speaker 9: struggling in most cases to be clean. They don't want
31:00
Speaker 9: to be addicted, but they're very, very susceptible. And when
31:04
Speaker 9: you think about somebody who's famous like that, there are
31:08
Speaker 9: always people around who were willing to oblige them with
31:11
Speaker 9: drugs and tempt them with drugs because they want to
31:15
Speaker 9: make them happy, they want to be around the celebrity.
31:18
Speaker 9: It's something that happens all the time. So I am
31:22
Speaker 9: sure he was trying but obviously not succeeding, or that
31:26
Speaker 9: ketamine would not have been there.
31:28
Speaker 4: He had really been through a battle. I want you
31:32
Speaker 4: to take a listen to our cut four our friends
31:34
Speaker 4: from crime online. Something I didn't know until after Matthew
31:39
Speaker 4: Perry passed away after.
31:41
Speaker 5: Years of addiction.
31:42
Speaker 15: Matthew Perry spent five months in the hospital after his
31:45
Speaker 15: colon burst from prolonged opioid abuse. Perry says he was
31:49
Speaker 15: in surgery for seven hours, in a coma for two weeks,
31:52
Speaker 15: and doctors told his family he had a two percent
31:55
Speaker 15: chance of survival.
32:02
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
32:08
Speaker 2: Oh please stop. In a letter attached to his sentencing memo,
32:13
Speaker 2: Eric Fleming the dope dealer. The drug counselor apologized to
32:17
Speaker 2: Perry's family and wrote, he took full responsibility for my
32:20
Speaker 2: criminal acts. Blah blah blah. He did that out of
32:25
Speaker 2: one side of his mouth while grabbing and saying I
32:28
Speaker 2: do to a sweetheart, deal a sweetheart sentencing on the
32:32
Speaker 2: other side of his mouth, Fleming said in court, I'm
32:36
Speaker 2: still in disbelief. It's truly a nightmare disbelief. You gave
32:44
Speaker 2: Matthew Perry fifty one vials of ketamine. Perry was an addict.
32:49
Speaker 2: What did you think was going to happen? What happened?
32:52
Speaker 2: The night TV icon and movie star Matthew Perry died.
32:57
Speaker 4: Doctor William Maroney joining us the pre eminent expert in
33:01
Speaker 4: this field, Doctor Moroney, I believe.
33:06
Speaker 5: That if my colen had burst from prolonged.
33:10
Speaker 4: Drug use, I would go through hell in high water
33:14
Speaker 4: not to get addicted again. But see that's me on
33:16
Speaker 4: the outside looking in, because I'm not addicted. Addicts tell
33:20
Speaker 4: me that they can't stop themselves.
33:24
Speaker 12: What it is is, there is an insight issue that
33:29
Speaker 12: comes with substance use disorder, and the only way you
33:33
Speaker 12: can rewire the brain. It's like rewiring a vacuum cleaner,
33:39
Speaker 12: rewiring a radio or you know, rewiring a power strip.
33:44
Speaker 12: You rewire the brain, not by feeding the body drugs
33:50
Speaker 12: just as a substitute, but in depth therapy, making selections,
33:57
Speaker 12: looking at the trauma in your life, choosing not to
34:01
Speaker 12: be impulsive, choosing to process your stress. You have to
34:06
Speaker 12: do that with another person, face the face. It's not
34:10
Speaker 12: always about the drugs. He may have been clean from
34:14
Speaker 12: heroin for two years, but his brain was not done
34:20
Speaker 12: processing that. Impulsivity and impulsivity, poor processing, and lack of insight.
34:28
Speaker 12: Those are the three things that substance use disorder people
34:31
Speaker 12: suffer with every single for alcohol, heroin. Okay, those are
34:36
Speaker 12: the three things. And the only way through that rewiring
34:40
Speaker 12: is with another person in a chair, face the face,
34:44
Speaker 12: and that's just not being done today. Everybody wants a pill,
34:47
Speaker 12: they want to quick fix, and these rogue doctors are
34:50
Speaker 12: not getting people the therapy they need. In the end,
34:54
Speaker 12: the same thing is going to happen. Somebody's going to
34:57
Speaker 12: be investigated by the medical board. There'll be another trial
35:01
Speaker 12: any year. Somebody's going to lose their license. And it's
35:05
Speaker 12: so sad that Matthew Perry had to die This way.
35:09
Speaker 4: Same thing with Michael Jackson, Conrad Murray. There was a trial,
35:13
Speaker 4: he gets convicted. In the end he walks free, and
35:18
Speaker 4: Michael Jackson still did. Same thing with Matthew Perry. A
35:22
Speaker 4: bright light has been extinguished because of ketamine. And I
35:28
Speaker 4: want to follow up with Miguel Melndez, Senior reporter, Entertainment Tonight. Miguel,
35:34
Speaker 4: I had no idea that Matthew Perry had been through
35:38
Speaker 4: so much in his battle, even having his colon burst
35:44
Speaker 4: from prolonged opioid abuse.
35:46
Speaker 5: But there's more, Miguel, let's nowur cut five.
35:50
Speaker 15: Two years after his near death experience, Matthew Perry goes
35:54
Speaker 15: to a rehab facility in Switzerland. He wrote that he
35:57
Speaker 15: faked pains and dumbs to get oxy conton during he
36:00
Speaker 15: was also getting daily ketamine infusions. While at the facility,
36:04
Speaker 15: Perry needed to have surgery and was given propofol. When
36:07
Speaker 15: he woke up eleven hours later, he found out his
36:10
Speaker 15: heart had stopped for five minutes and during the long
36:13
Speaker 15: CPR process, eight of his ribs were broken. The doctor
36:16
Speaker 15: then refused more mets.
36:18
Speaker 5: So this guy, Matthew Perry, I mean, we look at him, Miguel.
36:24
Speaker 4: And we think, Wow, he's famous, he's a star, He's
36:27
Speaker 4: got all this money in this beautiful home.
36:29
Speaker 5: This guy was in a living hell that nobody knew about.
36:33
Speaker 5: I mean, he had his com burst from opioid use.
36:38
Speaker 4: Then he dies essentially during a surgery and all eight
36:42
Speaker 4: of his ribs are broken during CPR, and yet.
36:47
Speaker 5: He went back to his own hellhole. He couldn't stop himself. Miguil, Yeah.
36:52
Speaker 7: I mean it's tragic. All these near death experiences rooted
36:56
Speaker 7: from his need of these substances. And he wrote in
37:01
Speaker 7: his book that he thought that the only reason why
37:04
Speaker 7: he was revived and given CPR in such aggressive manner
37:08
Speaker 7: was because the first in performing the CPR said, I
37:12
Speaker 7: can't let the guy from Friends die on my table.
37:15
Speaker 7: That can't happen on my watch. So in retrospect, Perry
37:20
Speaker 7: asked himself, had I not been on Friends, would they
37:24
Speaker 7: have stopped giving me CPR after three minutes, and said
37:28
Speaker 7: they went five minutes.
37:29
Speaker 8: Five of them.
37:30
Speaker 7: Wow, And you talk about these drugs in his system.
37:34
Speaker 7: And even when he was detoxing in the final episode
37:38
Speaker 7: of Friends in two thousand and four, when the episode
37:41
Speaker 7: ended and it all came to a close and everyone
37:44
Speaker 7: felt emotional, not just the cast and the crew, but
37:47
Speaker 7: everyone who was tuned in to that show. Perry himself
37:51
Speaker 7: said in his book that he felt nothing because the
37:54
Speaker 7: detox drug that was in his system at the time
37:56
Speaker 7: made him feel numb. So even in the happy moments,
38:00
Speaker 7: or what should have been the happiest moments of his life,
38:04
Speaker 7: he felt nothing. And again, it all rooted because of
38:07
Speaker 7: the sustance issue that he's had for so long.
38:10
Speaker 4: Miguel, you are bringing up a whole other issue, not
38:15
Speaker 4: only the battle against addiction, but how it affects your
38:19
Speaker 4: life day to day.
38:20
Speaker 5: He couldn't even feel regular emotions. I mean, you know,
38:25
Speaker 5: this morning, when I was driving the twins to school,
38:28
Speaker 5: I was so happy just being with them.
38:31
Speaker 1: What a loss in.
38:33
Speaker 5: Your life not to be able to feel all those
38:37
Speaker 5: wonderful things.
38:39
Speaker 4: And guys, we're finding out now how his ketemine addiction began.
38:46
Speaker 4: Take your listen to Our cut six Our Friend. Investigative
38:49
Speaker 4: reporter Nicole Parton.
38:50
Speaker 6: Matthew Perry wrote about the ketamine infusions he received at
38:54
Speaker 6: the Swiss clinic. He explained in his memoir that ketamine
38:57
Speaker 6: quote has my name written all over.
39:00
Speaker 2: They might as well have called it Maddie.
39:02
Speaker 6: The New York Post reports that Perry described the drug
39:05
Speaker 6: as a giant exhale and said he would be blindfolded
39:09
Speaker 6: and listening to music when he got his injections. Perry
39:13
Speaker 6: also said he would disassociate during the infusions and often
39:17
Speaker 6: felt as if he were dying. Perry said he kept
39:20
Speaker 6: signing up for it because it was something different, and quote,
39:23
Speaker 6: anything different is good. Taking kay is like being hit
39:27
Speaker 6: in the head with a giant, happy shovel, but the
39:30
Speaker 6: hangover was rough and outweighed the shovel. Still in his memoir,
39:35
Speaker 6: Perry says ketamine was not for me.
39:38
Speaker 4: You know, doctor Maroney, Ketamine is my new nightmare, my
39:43
Speaker 4: new nightmare because I've never known of it actually killing
39:46
Speaker 4: anyone until now.
39:48
Speaker 12: Well, I think the ketamine awareness has went from zero
39:53
Speaker 12: to one hundred on our National barometer. But the whole
39:57
Speaker 12: idea is effective, evidence based FDA approved ketamine treatment comes
40:04
Speaker 12: with counseling, and where we have rogue doctors and really
40:09
Speaker 12: dark rabbit holes is people are going to look for
40:13
Speaker 12: this stuff and not match it to the counseling. The
40:17
Speaker 12: lack of feeling that he had meant that he was
40:21
Speaker 12: just altered by drugs, seeing people having emotions. You know
40:27
Speaker 12: you talked about your kids. I got kids the same age.
40:31
Speaker 12: Where's the celebrities with taking their kids to school? They
40:35
Speaker 12: miss all that stuff. They're in they're in clinics, they're
40:38
Speaker 12: in rehab, their their homes are in the hills, and
40:41
Speaker 12: nobody had families out there that let's get back to
40:46
Speaker 12: simple things. If you're gonna do ketamine, you're gonna seek
40:49
Speaker 12: it out. Seek out. The FDA approved katamine, the counseling,
40:55
Speaker 12: the psychiatrist, the behavioral health clinics, not the rogue. Rogue
41:00
Speaker 12: leads to death.
41:01
Speaker 2: I also blamed the prosecutors because prosecutors said sentencing guidelines
41:08
Speaker 2: called for Fleming to get up to fifty seven months,
41:12
Speaker 2: but they prosecutors agreed to a downward departure, claiming the
41:20
Speaker 2: drug addiction counselor aka dope dealer, accepted responsibility seriously. Of
41:27
Speaker 2: course he did, because he was caught red handed. There
41:31
Speaker 2: was a digital chain. The assistant pointed to him. It
41:35
Speaker 2: was a very badly kept secret that he was the supplier.
41:39
Speaker 2: They had him dead in the water. Why agree to
41:41
Speaker 2: wi light sentence, Try him and get the max. I'm
41:45
Speaker 2: just I'm disgusted the so called assistant mister Iwamasa. Set
41:51
Speaker 2: for sentencing in just a few weeks, We wait as
41:55
Speaker 2: justice unfolds. Nancy Gray's crime story signing off the King
42:01
Speaker 2: of had been set acted to Equsis