Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How a Female Founder Tackles Invisible Labor and Startup Burnout with Jamie Albaum | Ep. 143

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How a Female Founder Tackles Invisible Labor and Startup Burnout with Jamie Albaum | Ep. 143 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
What we've seen with some of our user organizations is that folks
0:04
are taking more time off than they previously did.
0:08
And I know that's probably going to make some members of the
0:10
audience raise their eyebrows because isn't the whole point to
0:13
make sure people are like working better, working more
0:16
productively? Yes, absolutely.
0:18
But especially in the context of the United States, where, you
0:22
know, compared to folks in Europe, we don't have nearly as
0:25
much paid time off as you all get across the pond.
0:29
So the the work culture in American companies is a lot more
0:33
like like head, head down on desk.
0:36
You have to be working 24/7. And that's why discussions of
0:39
burnout and high rates of attrition are a lot more
0:42
prevalent in American workplace discourse than they might be for
0:45
other countries. That's the voice of Jamie
0:59
Albaum. Jamie is one of the three
1:01
founders of Callow Time, and she discovered something interesting
1:05
while working with mission driven companies.
1:08
Many of their employees feel overloaded and burned out, not
1:12
because they're working too hard, but because a large part
1:15
of their work is invisible. In episode 143, Jamie and I dive
1:21
into the world of invisible labor.
1:24
We explore how it creates burnout and hide structural
1:27
bias, and why making that hidden workload visible is critical for
1:32
building healthier companies. By listening to this episode,
1:36
you'll learn why burnout starts in the gap between assumed
1:40
workload and real workload, how time tracking helped founders
1:44
put overload before burnout happens, and what the data
1:49
reveals about gendered labor patterns and recognition.
1:53
Plus, you'll hear how real workload data impacts pricing,
1:57
fundraising, and project management in ways you may not
2:00
expect. So when you're ready to learn
2:02
how to build a healthy company by tackling invisible labor and
2:06
start a burnout, here's my conversation with Jamie Albaum.
2:11
Jamie Albaum from Calo Time. Good afternoon to you.
2:16
Welcome to women disrupting tech.
2:18
Good to have you. Let's start with some
2:20
background. How did you get to build Callow
2:24
Time? DJ, thank you so much for having
2:27
me. It's great to be here on the
2:29
Women Disrupting Tech podcast. I'm seriously very honored.
2:33
This is such a great question and I actually love telling
2:36
folks this story, so I'm glad that we can kick off this way.
2:40
My colleagues and I actually ended up building Callow because
2:44
we were responding directly to a client need that we encountered
2:48
at the time. We all met and began working
2:50
together at a business operations consulting firm and
2:54
we worked specifically with small businesses, nonprofits,
2:58
broadly speaking, mission driven organizations, and we helped
3:00
them with everything and everything to do with business
3:02
operations. We were working with a client
3:05
one time who came to us because they were dealing with a problem
3:09
related to their staff. Their staff were experiencing
3:12
high levels of burnout, high levels of attrition.
3:15
They weren't able to basically get a handle on keeping staff at
3:20
the organization, so they were losing institutional knowledge,
3:23
critical skills. It was not a good situation for
3:26
them. So when my team and I began to
3:29
do a little digging into what was the cause of these problems
3:32
that they were facing, we realized that fundamentally,
3:36
there was a really big discrepancy between how many
3:40
hours folks on that team were actually working and the amount
3:44
of time that members of the leadership of the organization
3:48
thought they were spending doing work.
3:49
So you had staff members who were working crazy hours, more
3:54
than 60 hours a week, sometimes up to 80 hours a week, like
3:59
really, really approaching burnout.
4:00
And a leadership team who was kind of blind to all the work,
4:04
all the invisible labor that their staff members were
4:08
conducting. So we came to the leadership
4:11
team and told them about this problem and we recommended to
4:15
them that they implement a time keeping system so that they
4:18
could keep better tabs on exactly how much time their
4:21
staff members were working in a given day and week, month, what
4:24
have you. And the leadership team
4:27
recognized the need to get the data on hours worked so that
4:31
they could get a better, more concrete understanding of the
4:35
problems that they could implement a data informed
4:39
solution. But given the culture of the
4:41
organization, implementing an organization wide time keeping
4:44
system was not something that they knew would go over well
4:48
with the staff. And we understand, I mean,
4:51
entering time and timesheets is one of the most laborious
4:54
processes. It's something that I myself am
4:57
guilty of having forgotten to do on a frequent basis.
5:00
And then I'm left hanging at the end of a week or the end of a
5:03
month, having to remember all the work that I did the week or
5:06
month prior. To put it in it in and of itself
5:09
takes so much time to complete. So we understood where they were
5:13
coming from and we said to them, that's no problem.
5:15
Why don't we go ahead and build a system from the ground up
5:19
that's going to work even culturally with your
5:22
organization. Let's build a time keeping
5:24
system that is flexible to your organization's needs, to the
5:29
culture and personality of your team members, but that also
5:33
gives you the specific data, the insights you'll need to
5:36
understand where this discrepancy in perception of
5:40
working hours is coming from. 1st place.
5:43
So Kello's Chief Technology Officer, Julia Gregor actually
5:47
went ahead with this idea, ran with it and built a meticulous
5:52
system of spreadsheets. It where and there was a master
5:56
spreadsheet that now serves as the Kello dashboard.
5:59
And each was connected to a spreadsheet that was a an
6:02
individualized timesheet for each member of this
6:05
organization's team. So each staff member would be
6:09
able to log their time and it would automatically sync to the
6:12
master spreadsheet slash dashboard and show the
6:15
difference between actual number of hours worked and estimated
6:19
number of hours that each employee supervisor thought they
6:22
would spend on each project. So we had this beautiful system
6:26
of far too many spreadsheets than any one person should ever
6:30
have to deal with in their life. And we implemented it for the
6:33
client and it ended up working for them.
6:36
And we obviously worked together.
6:38
Was a bit clunky at first, especially working with so many
6:41
different documents. But they got into a good rhythm
6:44
with the implementation plan and communications plan that we had
6:47
set them up with, and they were able to get the insights that
6:51
they needed to finally get a better understanding of what was
6:55
causing burnout. And IT have resulted in really
6:58
important changes for the culture of the organization and
7:01
reduced the burnout that folks were experiencing.
7:05
So when we saw that it worked for them, we kind of had a light
7:09
bulb moment, my team members and I, and we said, if this is
7:11
working for this one client, chances are that they're not
7:15
alone in having this problem. And maybe if there are a few
7:19
other organizations that are experiencing similar challenges,
7:23
our system could work for them too.
7:26
So we thought, let's do a little bit of market research and see
7:29
how widespread this issue is. And it turns out our hunch was
7:32
right. There are a lot of
7:33
organizations, especially small businesses and non profits where
7:38
this issue with oh, with invisible labor working so many
7:42
hours, a lot of those hours going unnoticed by supervisors
7:46
and members of leadership team, It's more widespread than we
7:48
thought. So when we realized that this
7:51
problem was something that we could potentially fix, we took
7:56
our system of spreadsheets, we approached the developer and
7:59
said, could you help us make this into something that is user
8:02
friendly, that looks beautiful, that could really be a bonafide
8:06
tool and a useful platform for small businesses.
8:10
Non profits of all sectors across all industries to be able
8:15
to use to get a handle on this challenge.
8:17
And that's exactly how we ended up building Kello.
8:21
Cool. So there's one thing I want to
8:23
double click on that. What I'm hearing you say is that
8:26
actually you found a problem by identifying that data, or in
8:34
this case time wasn't logged anywhere, so the management
8:41
didn't have any visible or it didn't have any view on what was
8:48
causing the problem. Right.
8:51
Usually if if you hear it now, like in the 2025, the immediate
8:57
hunch you get or at least that I got is all this has to do with
9:04
office culture and not necessarily with time.
9:08
So I was wondering if you could double click why you focused on
9:11
the time part as a solution to get a culture in place rather
9:17
than fixing the culture. And then what?
9:20
What triggered that You didn't say tell management, hey, you
9:24
need to have a conversation with these people about how much time
9:28
they actually. Spent right For us at Kello, our
9:32
ethos is that we are data-driven and human centered, so we
9:37
understand that quantitative data is going to tell a really
9:41
compelling story and numbers are not going to lie.
9:44
And for this particular client, we knew that we could make a
9:47
better case for the cultural changes that needed to transpire
9:52
if we had the numbers to back it up.
9:55
And when we were interviewing members of the staff, we kept
9:58
hearing the same refrain over and over again.
10:00
I am working, working way more hours than my supervisor or my
10:05
manager thinks that I am working.
10:07
And when we were asking them how that was making them feel, they
10:11
told us all these stories of feeling like they were burnt
10:14
out, feeling like their work wasn't being recognized or
10:17
valued. And then we sort of took all of
10:20
those steps back to figure out what is the causality here.
10:24
And we realized if we're hearing all of these concerns from staff
10:29
members about working too many hours, we need to be able to
10:32
show that to the members of this organization's leadership team
10:35
so that we have those concrete figures in place to show them
10:39
that there is a real problem at the organization that has
10:44
cultural implications at the workplace.
10:47
OK, so you used the time to actually quantify the problem
10:52
for them and to make it feasible like.
10:55
This is why you need to make changes in the code term and
11:00
this is how you start. Exactly One other thing I'll add
11:03
too is that for a lot of small businesses and even in the
11:07
nonprofit sector specifically, the need to keep time is not a
11:13
very prevalent one. Usually folks who work in the
11:17
private sector or who work in a lot of billable projects or in
11:21
billable industries, they're very used to time keeping and
11:24
having to keep meticulous records of all hours or minutes
11:27
worked. I know if there are any lawyers
11:29
in the audience, some of you are used to billing by the six
11:32
minute or even minute by minute increment.
11:34
But for a lot of small business owners or even nonprofits,
11:37
that's a very unfamiliar practice.
11:41
So but what what we realized as we kept going with this one
11:45
particular case with this original client is that it's
11:49
very useful for businesses of all types and sizes to have this
11:53
really important time data because you can start to
11:57
understand how the employees at your organization are using your
12:01
time. And with that data, you can make
12:03
so many better informed decisions about how to adjust
12:07
your resources, how to manage labour as an instrument of
12:11
capital so much more effectively, how to impose
12:15
better cultural practices within your organization.
12:18
It really is a powerful first step for a lot of business
12:21
leaders to then take a leap from.
12:24
Yeah. So you talked already a bit
12:27
about what's happened at the first client as a result of the
12:32
gap between the hours they thought management was thought
12:37
they were spending versus the actual number of hours.
12:41
What happens inside other teams? What did you, because you
12:45
interviewed as part of their business case, You interviewed
12:48
other companies? What what did they see?
12:52
What we ended up seeing was effectively a pattern and we
12:54
knew that what we had witnessed with that first client was not
12:58
just a one off. So this notion of staff members
13:02
feeling overworked and members of leadership were supervisors
13:06
not really having a strong grasp on how many hours people are
13:09
actually working or importantly, the invisible labor that people
13:13
are engaging with to keep an organization operable afloat.
13:18
All of those things were going unnoticed.
13:21
So the burnout that we heard from staff members at our first
13:24
client, that was something that we started to pick up on when we
13:28
were doing a little bit more of our market research.
13:32
High levels of attrition. Similarly also a symptom of
13:37
widespread feelings of burnout within a particular team.
13:40
We started to notice that amongst other clients that we
13:43
began to investigate as part of our market research.
13:46
So when we picked up on this pattern amongst similar
13:51
organizations, namely our target market of small businesses and
13:55
nonprofits, we realized that a tool to centralized this time
14:00
keeping data and what we end up at Kello calling the capacity
14:04
percentage or the capacity differential that's the
14:06
difference between the actual number of hours worked and the
14:10
estimated number of hours worked.
14:12
We realized that that tool is something really important for
14:15
businesses of this type to be able to understand the cause of
14:22
some of these really common problems and to give them ideas
14:25
about how to address it. Yeah.
14:28
So you indicated that it leads to burnout or feelings of
14:32
burnout. What does this look like in
14:35
practice? What kind of words do people
14:39
use? Yeah, I mean, this is something
14:41
that I can even speak to from personal experience.
14:44
When someone is feeling burnt out, their motivation decreases
14:49
significantly. Their ability to focus also
14:52
becomes more wavered and more uncertain, and you lose your
14:58
ability to show up with the utmost ability to engage in your
15:03
work on a daily basis. And when you lose that sense of
15:06
engagement, you start to feel resentment towards your job,
15:10
towards your boss, towards the company that you're working for.
15:13
And that's when that resentment starts to harbor and people
15:16
start to look for opportunities elsewhere.
15:19
We always like to say at Kello that for any company or
15:22
organization, your most important asset is your people,
15:27
the people who are doing the work every day.
15:29
So it actually makes the best business sense in our opinion,
15:34
to do what you can as a business owner, business leader to take
15:37
care of your people because your people are the ones who are
15:41
doing the work on the daily basis to drive your mission
15:43
forward, to accomplish your quarterly, your annual goals.
15:47
And when you take care of your people and ensure that they're
15:51
working in a work environment, that fosters high motivation,
15:55
that fosters engagement, that fosters high job satisfaction,
15:59
Those folks are going to want to stay and be loyal to your
16:02
organization. So you're building a really
16:06
strong repository of institutional knowledge amongst
16:10
your team members who are demonstrating long term loyalty
16:13
to the organization. Those are the folks who are
16:15
going to help your business grow and achieve new heights.
16:19
Yeah. OK.
16:20
So so one question I still have about This is why didn't this
16:24
come up through conversations? With the original client you
16:28
mean? No.
16:30
So at the original client what you saw is management expecting
16:35
that everyone was working 40 hours a week and living happily.
16:41
And the reality was that there were close to burnout and
16:45
working 60 to 80 hours. Do you know how it came about
16:50
that this didn't come up through water cooler conversations or
16:56
let's say conversations that people were having on the work
16:59
floor? Yeah.
17:01
If I can be quite honest, in small businesses and small teams
17:04
specifically, I was eluding before to this notion of
17:08
invisible labor. And that is a very, very
17:12
widespread phenomenon among small businesses as something
17:16
that I've just anecdotally observed over my near 10 years
17:20
of working with businesses of that size.
17:22
And this goes unnoticed by a lot of business owners and leaders
17:26
because they are doing 1,000,000 things a minute.
17:30
And I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, but
17:35
it really just is the reality that when people are really
17:38
busy, they can get distracted and they can overlook a lot of
17:42
other tasks. They can overlook the well-being
17:47
of the people who are working for them because they are so
17:50
focused on trying to take off all the the myriad things that
17:53
are on their To Do List every day.
17:57
So I think that it didn't come up in water cooler conversations
18:01
because there literally was a blindness, an utter lack of
18:07
awareness of the actual number of hours that team members were
18:11
working. And this is something that we
18:12
even observed before going back to the original client with
18:16
those business with with that organization's leaders, is that
18:19
they too were working way more hours than they ever thought
18:22
that they were because they would be working on something at
18:26
night as they were putting their kids to bed.
18:28
And not actually considering the fact that those minutes turn
18:31
into hours. And that actually is part of
18:34
work. If your brain is focused on your
18:37
business, then you're working on your business.
18:39
If you're doing anything other than doing something, engaging
18:43
in a hobby, spending time with the family, anything that
18:45
doesn't require you to think for an iota of a second about your
18:48
business, then then you're working.
18:52
And I think it's that lack of awareness that led to that.
18:56
Inability to openly talk about the issues that the organization
19:01
was facing from the time keeping standpoint.
19:03
But how? But what the cultural
19:05
ramifications were for that lack of awareness?
19:08
That's why going back again to why for us, when we were working
19:12
with that client, it was important to present them with
19:14
the data that was so important to us because we could say to
19:18
them here without a shadow of a doubt, we have concrete evidence
19:22
to support what your staff members have been telling us.
19:25
We have concrete evidence to support to support that you
19:28
yourselves as this organization's leaders are not
19:31
setting a good example for your team members of what a healthy
19:36
work life balance should be. Yeah, I was about to say, you
19:39
also gave them a sort of a mirror.
19:42
Absolutely of their own. Behavior.
19:44
Absolutely. Which usually is even more
19:46
powerful if they say like oh, because actually by extension if
19:50
if you work like really long hours, you expect others to do
19:54
that too. 100% culture is set at the top and if your business
19:59
leaders are only showing that they work 20 hours a day and
20:05
that sets the standard of expectations for all other team
20:09
members, then that. Broadens to become the overall
20:13
culture that your organization embodies.
20:16
And again, for some folks who are out there who absolutely
20:21
love, love working and who love to be on it 100% of the time,
20:26
that's fantastic. I'm certainly not saying that
20:30
there is a right or wrong, wrong way to go about work life
20:33
balance. It's something that's highly
20:35
individualized. And I think it's forever going
20:38
to be a struggle for anybody who holds any kind of employment to
20:42
be able to find a team, find an organization who will respect
20:47
the work life balance needs that each of us bring to us on and
20:51
bring to our lives on an individual basis.
20:53
But yeah, at the top, that's where it's set.
20:56
And that has a trickle down effect to expectations that are
21:00
set for all other members of the team.
21:03
And this happens in start-ups a lot because especially the early
21:07
stage founders, they, they do something where they work and
21:13
they had just looking at myself and the people I spoke to, they
21:18
see, they don't see it as work. They see it as sort of their
21:22
life. This is their mission, this is
21:24
their legacy. This is what they're they're
21:26
supposed to be working on. So if it takes another extra
21:29
hour or two or three or four and it doesn't impede with let's say
21:34
the children. Yeah, absolutely.
21:37
And as a founder myself, I, that resonates with me personally.
21:41
I completely understand. And especially when I find
21:43
myself working really productively and I get into a
21:46
groove, I can lose track of time and keep going and going and
21:50
going. But I'm really lucky in that I
21:52
have a support system. I have family members who can
21:56
help me pick up slack in other areas of my life that also need
21:59
attention. With your podcast, especially DJ
22:02
speaking to women in the tech industry, this is something that
22:05
goes unspoken about a lot of the times and that it's society
22:09
still imposes the disproportionate burden upon
22:14
women to manage the household and all the work that comes with
22:19
keeping up with a home and keeping up with the family.
22:21
So as female founders, there's an additional layer added to all
22:27
of the work that we're that we're putting on our own plates.
22:30
There's oh, but we have to make sure that we're taking care of
22:33
the family. We have to make sure that this
22:35
part of the house gets cleaned today.
22:37
We have to make sure that the kids get dropped off for one of
22:40
their millions of activities or sports leagues that they need
22:43
to. And granted, of course it's
22:46
wonderful when folks have the help to do that, but I think
22:49
that the societal pressure and expectations for women
22:53
specifically to take on all of that invisible labour even in
22:56
2025 still very much exists. Well, yeah, absolutely.
23:01
There's absolutely extra burden on on women when it comes to
23:06
care duties of care and not only children, by the way, in
23:09
household, but also care for elderly family family members
23:13
usually goes to the to the female side of the of the
23:17
equation. One question before we shift to
23:21
to more into how callow then solves the problem.
23:25
Did you see any in in the data that you collected and that you
23:30
still collect. Do you see that this balance
23:32
between men and women also back in the data on the number of
23:36
hours that they work or? That's a very interesting
23:39
question. In the organizations that we
23:43
researched for as part of our market research and just, you
23:46
know, examining Callow's current customers, we don't necessarily
23:50
see that there is a discrepancy in the number of hours worked by
23:55
gender, but we are still seeing a discrepancy in in the projects
24:00
or the tasks where those hours are logged.
24:03
We were talking again about invisible Labor and what we've
24:06
seen with current Kello users as well is that female identifying
24:10
members of a team will spend more time taking on operational
24:17
tasks that support the bottom line of the business and to
24:22
ensure a positive employee experience for the overall
24:26
organization. Rather than male identifying
24:29
team members who will pretty much log all of their time to
24:34
specific project work. That's not to say that the
24:37
female identifying team members are not still logging that
24:40
project time, But if folks all only have the same hours of the
24:43
day, what we're noticing is that this kind of doesn't set up
24:49
female team members for success. Because again, there's that
24:53
unspoken expectation that they will take on the invisible labor
24:56
that's required to keep the business afloat, keep the bottom
24:59
line of the business, you know, at A at a reasonable state while
25:03
still having to accomplish all of their project or external or
25:09
client facing goals. Now, do you actually also make
25:14
that point to clients on on that balance, like like, hey, this is
25:20
what we're in addition to, this is the gap between what you
25:23
thought you were spending in terms of hours and this is what
25:26
you really spend. You also give feedback on, hey,
25:29
this is if we look at populations, this is what they
25:33
spend their time on or this at least this is what they logged,
25:37
their time. Most most definitely for us at
25:40
Kello, transparency is the name of the game.
25:43
And we were I was talking before about how our ethos is
25:46
data-driven and human centered. And what underlies that is a is
25:51
US valuing equity as a pillar of our business, as a pillar of our
25:56
ethics and the way that we always want to go about
25:59
delivering our product and its service to all of our clients
26:03
and its users. So if we encounter a situation
26:07
where we're seeing this data in one of our clients, we would be
26:11
remiss not to say anything, especially if we start to
26:14
recognize that it's again a larger pattern within the
26:17
organization. We understand that if we're
26:20
seeing this data, like I've said before, it has cultural
26:25
implications that can negatively affect the business overall,
26:29
negatively affect the business from even a productivity
26:32
standpoint and a profitability standpoint.
26:35
As I mentioned before, it makes good business sense to take care
26:39
of your people and to have a human centered culture at the
26:42
core of your organization or your company.
26:45
So if we're finding through the data that we're collecting that
26:49
one of our client users is going down a road that might not be
26:54
beneficial for them, we're going to say something and work with
26:58
them as needed to implement any recommended changes so that they
27:02
can get ahead of any consequences.
27:06
Let's shift to what Gallo then actually does.
27:09
How does it work? Where does it start?
27:11
Where does it end? Absolutely.
27:14
So for most users, it's a very simple and user friendly time
27:19
keeping system wherein you login, you can see a very user
27:23
friendly dashboard with all of the projects that you've been
27:26
assigned to. And then you have your timesheet
27:28
where you can log the time that you spend working on all the
27:32
projects to which you are assigned.
27:34
But one thing that makes Kello as a time keeping system stand
27:38
out from other time keeping systems on the market is that
27:41
with Kello, you don't just have the one option of logging your
27:44
time on a daily basis. You can log your time in weekly
27:49
or even monthly increments. And this is a really effective
27:53
tool for organizations who are new to time keeping as a human
27:58
Capital Management process. You can start off by asking your
28:02
team members to provide general estimates for the number of
28:06
hours that they work on certain tasks or projects in a month.
28:10
Then you increase that frequency to a week, and then you can
28:13
increase it to daily. This is also really helpful if
28:18
organizations don't need such explicit detail in number of
28:24
hours per day across projects. If they just need a general
28:28
estimate of how team members are spending their time across
28:31
different projects, tasks, departments, etcetera, then
28:35
being able to lessen the time keeping task burden on team
28:39
members by having them do it less frequently is a way to get
28:42
people more or better acquainted with the idea of doing something
28:48
new as part of their work day. It increases the buy in of
28:52
trying to implement a new process and system into people's
28:55
already busy days. Yeah.
28:58
So how do you how do you make that distinction if I need it or
29:02
not really the granularity in the data on an hourly basis or
29:08
on a weekly or even monthly basis?
29:11
That's where we as members of the Kello team will speak
29:14
directly with new client users and we will provide
29:18
recommendations that are suited to the needs that they express
29:23
to us. And what's very easy with the
29:26
Kello platform is that it can always be changed.
29:29
So let's say a new organization comes to us and they say they
29:33
want to use Kello, but they're really unfamiliar or or they're
29:36
team members have never used a time keeping system before.
29:39
Well then we might recommend that they start with the monthly
29:42
frequency of time keeping. And if after even just the first
29:46
month we find that it's not working for them very well, we
29:50
can adjust and in a matter of seconds we can change their
29:53
frequency. None of the previously recorded
29:55
data is going to go away. There's absolutely no disruption
29:59
to the usability or the operability of the platform.
30:03
And then we can even revert if we find that the weekly
30:06
frequency is too much, we can go back to monthly.
30:10
So it's all that the heart of Callow and the platform itself
30:14
was the user experience. We wanted it to be as seamless
30:17
and easy as possible for folks to use, and we wanted it to be
30:21
flexible to organizations changing, ever changing and ever
30:26
evolving needs. That's what that is what the
30:28
platform does. What are the benefits that
30:31
you're you are seeing? Definitely.
30:34
Before I get into some of the benefits that we're seeing, I
30:36
also want to talk a little bit about some of the some of how
30:39
the platform works when you are at a manager or an admin level
30:44
user. So there are different user or
30:46
account types within Kello. As I mentioned, for most folks
30:50
who use Kello, they're going to have a basic user type account
30:54
wherein you see all the projects that you've been assigned to and
30:56
then you can log your time. But of course, somebody has to
31:00
assign you to all of those projects, and that's where the
31:03
manager and and the admin level user types or account types come
31:07
into play. So in those manager and admin
31:10
account types, what you're also able to do is you can provide
31:15
estimated hours for all members of your team across all the
31:19
projects to which they are assigned.
31:21
So that's where the ultimate calculation for that capacity
31:25
differential comes in. If we go back to the example of
31:28
the original client, remember that they were experiencing A
31:31
discrepancy between actual number of hours worked and the
31:35
perception of the number of hours worked by their
31:37
supervisors and managers. So if we take you and me to even
31:42
simplify this example further, DJ, if you are my supervisor and
31:46
you've assigned me to work on Project X and you think that I'm
31:50
going to spend 20 hours a week working on Project X, you can go
31:56
in and enter in Kello that for Jamie, she's going to work 20
31:59
hours on Project X this week. But at the end of that week,
32:03
after I've inputted my time for all the hours I've spent working
32:07
on Project X, you see that I actually needed to work 30
32:10
hours, not 20. The capacity differential is
32:14
going to light up. And we actually have a really
32:16
simple color coding system in Kello to identify if you're
32:19
within the, if the estimate is really accurate to actual number
32:23
of hours worked, it's green. If the estimate is, you know,
32:26
within a 10% differential, it's yellow.
32:28
Anything above 10%, it's going to be red.
32:31
To say there's a really big misunderstanding and discrepancy
32:34
here. So if I've, if you thought I was
32:37
going to work 20, but I actually work 30, that's going to show up
32:41
in your account, it's going to be red.
32:42
And you're you're going to realize, OK, maybe I have to go
32:45
and have a conversation with Jamie and figure out, you know,
32:50
how what actually was worked on this week, what was triggered
32:54
and and why did I have a such a big miscalculation as to how
32:59
much time it was actually going to take her to get the work
33:03
done. Yeah.
33:04
And, and usually it's a, it's a discussion that you have not
33:09
necessarily like in, in this particular case, I asked you how
33:14
much hours do you need? But if I'm a good manager, I
33:17
actually do challenge you and what to actually can provide you
33:21
with is let's say basis to chat to do that challenge.
33:25
Exactly. To tell you what, you said you
33:29
were going to spend 20 hours, but we saw in the previous weeks
33:33
it's going to be it was more like 30.
33:36
So what makes it is it's 20 now. Exactly.
33:40
Exactly. Could be, yeah.
33:41
Yeah. So then you as a manager can
33:43
make again better informed data, informed estimates as to how
33:47
much time it actually takes to accomplish a project.
33:52
And what this actually going back to the original question,
33:55
what is one of the benefits? What this helps organizations do
33:59
is be a lot more strategic with new business opportunities.
34:04
If they're going after some new business and it's a project that
34:08
the organization has completed already.
34:11
You have all of the data for how many man hours, how many labor
34:15
hours it actually takes to get a project like that done.
34:18
So you know exactly how many hours to quote your new client,
34:22
how much to charge your new client.
34:24
You have all that data so that you can go to you go to those
34:28
new business opportunities armed with that information and you
34:31
know how to crunch the numbers so that that you can at minimum
34:34
break even and even better, achieve a profit.
34:37
Yeah, yeah. Because I think that's also very
34:40
important to the business side of it.
34:43
At the end of the day, if you know the number of hours a it
34:48
makes it possible to avoid unnecessary losses and
34:53
unexpected losses because you underpriced a customer or under
34:57
quoted customer. Secondly, it also gives you
35:01
trust towards customer because you can actually deliver on time
35:06
at cost. And thirdly, it also gives you
35:09
the ability to to do decent pricing on on projects or
35:14
products or what have you and include all the information in
35:20
there and then do it actually data based, not let's say, yeah,
35:26
we call it like using your phone to to make up a quote.
35:31
Exactly. We have an expression here too
35:33
about assumptions and it's quite crass, but the, the, the, the
35:37
gist of the saying is that when you making assumptions, is, is,
35:41
is a, is a poor thing to do. So again, that's why having the
35:44
data that a platform like Kello can give you is so important.
35:49
Obviously we just talked about the benefit that it has from,
35:52
you know, the, the new business standpoint from, from being able
35:55
to deliver projects for your clients on time and on budget.
35:59
But it also helps businesses better allocate their human
36:04
capital resources. Say we're taking, we want to
36:07
take on new business at our company.
36:10
And you know, we know that it, you know, let's say DJ, you're
36:13
working at my company and you're a really high performer.
36:16
And I'd like you, DJ to work on this new project that we just
36:20
got for this new client. But I can see in your time
36:23
sheets that you're already kind of maxing out your capacity for
36:27
work hours in a week. Well, that tells me that it
36:31
would probably be a really bad idea to add more work to your
36:36
plate because again, I don't want to bring you close to
36:40
burnout in any way. We talked in great length
36:42
already about the consequences that can arise for companies
36:46
when they work their team members to the bone and they
36:50
approach burnout. So if I see from your
36:53
timesheets, from the data and Kello that you're already
36:55
working, you know, hours that are approaching your maximum,
36:59
what I can do is either assign the new project to a different
37:02
team member or I can readjust the projects that are currently
37:07
on your plate. I can take you off of something
37:09
else if it's really important to me that you're put on this new
37:13
client work. So I'm better able to manage
37:16
work across my team members to ensure maximum productivity,
37:21
minimize likelihood for burnout and ensure the all the projects
37:25
are completed on time, at cost and a maximizing profitability
37:29
in the process. Yeah.
37:31
And on top of that, it also enables companies, I think to
37:39
put a price on the service that they give to a customer post
37:43
sale. 100%. Because that is one of the
37:47
things that I saw, at least in my time as a corporate, is that
37:54
burnout was most prevalent in finance and in operations.
37:59
Why? Because not because the managers
38:03
didn't care, but because there was no at least early on the
38:10
budget allocation there was tied to the assumption of, OK, it's
38:15
going to cost about this number of hours.
38:18
And they actually, they did a lot of calculations on that
38:21
beforehand, but those were based on assumptions and they never
38:25
actually looked at the actuals. Right.
38:28
And we know that operating on assumptions is a bad thing to
38:32
do. So that's why I, I feel like I
38:35
sound like a broken record. So to your audience, I
38:37
apologize, but at least we're very consistent here.
38:40
If you have the data, then you don't have to rely on
38:43
assumptions and you can make more accurate projections and
38:46
forecasts. You're able to even build
38:49
budgets for your company many fiscal years in advance.
38:53
If you have this data and you've collected it over a long enough
38:57
period of time with consistent use of the platform, if you
39:00
notice a steady pattern of behavior through the data that
39:04
that Kellogg was yielding for you, you can create budgets for
39:09
several fiscal years down the line.
39:11
So that minimizes the operational and financial burden
39:14
as well for members of those teams because they're armed with
39:17
information that can allow them to do their work more
39:20
efficiently. So one thing that I had
39:26
personally with time management as an experience is that it sort
39:31
of feels and sounds like micromanagement.
39:34
Yes, everyone understands why it needs to be done.
39:37
Yes, everyone needs understands why it's sort of helping the
39:43
bigger helping myself, but also the bigger picture get better
39:48
and still is someone looking at my hours and looking if I'm
39:53
really making those 40 hours doesn't.
39:57
How do you avoid that discussion?
40:00
That's a really good question. We were talking before about how
40:05
we used data to inform the conversation about culture, but
40:10
I think in this particular picture that you're painting,
40:14
you would need to have the discussion about culture first
40:18
before going after the data collection.
40:21
Like I mentioned before, Ethos at Calo is that we are human
40:25
centered. We want to deliver an equitable
40:27
experience for all of our clients through the platform as
40:30
a tool and through the services that we offer.
40:33
But if a client is the culture, and a client organization is one
40:39
where micromanagement is abundant, then the
40:43
implementation of a time keeping system will probably not get a
40:47
lot of buy in from the people who actually have to keep their
40:50
time. And this unfortunately is
40:52
something that is not easy to avoid because you're, you're
40:59
right, there are some folks who can miss.
41:02
Folks can mismanage any tool. And certainly with time keeping,
41:06
it can be used with some micromanagers to nitpick the
41:09
number of hours or minutes that people are spending across their
41:12
day. So I think that the culture at
41:15
the organization needs to be one that espouses trust between
41:21
employees and their supervisors and an understanding that if
41:24
folks are getting their work done with minimal interruptions,
41:29
minimal problems, people are getting their work done and it's
41:32
delivered on time, and the quality of the work product is
41:35
satisfactory, then, at least in my opinion, it shouldn't matter
41:40
how much time it takes people to get the work done or when
41:45
they're working on it. If folks work better between the
41:48
hours of midnight and 5:00 AM, that's fantastic.
41:52
If folks work better during traditional nine to five hours,
41:55
that's fine too. But for me as a business leader
41:58
and a manager, as long as you are getting your work done on
42:02
time and again, if I'm satisfied with the quality of the product,
42:05
for me, I don't care when you do it or how long it takes.
42:09
So if that culture of trust is built in, then already I have
42:14
that accord with my employees where they are like more likely
42:20
to trust that I'm not going to use this tool to micromanage
42:24
them because that's not a culture at my organization that
42:28
I've pushed upon them at all. Trust is going to be your
42:32
strongest foundation to build that culture to enable your team
42:37
members to give you the buy in that's needed to implement these
42:40
new processes and systems. OK.
42:44
So what are the biggest shifts that you've seen over time after
42:48
using the, after implementing Kellogg in terms of of of
42:52
culture, in terms of maybe company, even performance?
42:57
Great question. What we've seen with some of our
43:00
user organizations is that folks are taking more time off than
43:04
they previously did. And I know that's probably going
43:07
to make some members of the audience raise their eyebrows
43:10
because isn't the whole point to make sure people are like
43:13
working better, working more productively?
43:15
Yes, absolutely. But especially in the context of
43:18
the United States where, you know, compared to folks in
43:21
Europe, we don't have nearly as much paid time off as you all
43:25
get across the pond. So the the work culture in
43:29
American companies is a lot more like like head, head down on
43:34
desk, you have to be working 24/7.
43:36
And that's why discussions of burnout and high rates of
43:39
attrition are a lot more prevalent in American workplace
43:42
discourse than they might be for other countries.
43:45
But again, ensuring that folks are able to take time off to
43:50
rest and recharge is statistically found to ensure
43:55
that when they come back to work, they are better engaged
43:59
with the work that are doing. They have greater satisfaction
44:03
with their job, with the organization because they've
44:05
been given sufficient time to to step away and to rest their
44:10
brains, rest their bodies and come back feeling better than
44:13
ever to attack the problem, attack the mission that any
44:18
organization is going after. So again, a strange thing to
44:22
have noticed, and I know folks are going to feel some sort of
44:26
way about it, but the ability to recognize how hard people are
44:31
working, how much time they're putting into their work, and
44:36
using that to encourage them to take time off to rest and
44:40
recharge and come back and perform at such optimal levels
44:44
has positive impacts on productivity and
44:49
unprofitability. Yeah.
44:51
That that and that is proven also in in numerous other
44:55
studies. Certainly.
44:57
Even the Bible was clear on that.
44:59
Thou shall have one day off. Exactly.
45:02
Yes, if the powers that if the powers that be even needed to
45:06
take a day off from creating the world, then we should be able to
45:09
take some time off from our jobs as well.
45:12
That's a very good statement. So did you, did you see any
45:18
cultural changes besides the taking more time, encouraging
45:23
people to take time off like the team, let's say the camaraderie,
45:32
team performance, but also in terms of like well-being
45:38
increasing? Absolutely, 100% yes to even all
45:42
of those examples. It's kind of even like you were
45:44
there. DJ Yes.
45:46
What we've seen is that when armed with this information and
45:50
when business leaders are able to make these better informed
45:52
decisions about how to staff people on different projects so
45:56
that their time is maximized, they again feel like they can.
46:00
Employees can feel like they can accomplish more in a day, which
46:03
makes them feel really good about the work that they're
46:06
doing and makes them more ready to show up for work the day
46:10
after and the day after that and.
46:13
Did you, did you also see changes in management behaviour,
46:17
like them taking more time off or working less long hours
46:22
because they were like, Oh yeah, I'm going to have to log this?
46:28
100% and actually we were working with one client
46:32
organization where in the leader of the organization actually
46:36
decided to take a month long sabbatical.
46:39
And what happened with that was that the organization itself
46:42
implemented in a company wide sabbatical policy to reward
46:47
people for their long tenure and loyalty to the organization.
46:52
So after working with the organization for five years, 10
46:55
years, five year increments, after that you get extended paid
46:58
time off under the sabbatical policy.
47:01
So these are really wonderful results with big impacts that
47:07
we're seeing from folks, you know, in in hopefully large part
47:11
because of their use of Kello and what it's been able to do to
47:14
improve their organizational culture, improve the efficiency
47:17
and how they're working on the day-to-day.
47:19
So that if somebody gets to take sabbatical for an additional 2
47:24
weeks or even up to a month. There's such a good and
47:27
productive cadence of work hours going with the other members of
47:31
the team that folks are able to make real, really well informed
47:35
decisions about how to pick up some of the work for folks who
47:38
are going to be out for that extended period of time.
47:41
While all reducing burnout, ensuring that people are only
47:44
working a sustainable number of working hours so that their
47:48
productivity does not suffer. Yeah, and also there will be
47:53
well-being does not suffer. Absolutely.
47:55
So my audience is preliminary founders and investors who may
48:04
not perceive that they have a problem yet in their teams.
48:10
And maybe they don't. Don't get me wrong.
48:13
What we we as founders, we're all doing great.
48:15
It's fine. We are blissfully ignorant, as I
48:18
like to say. So to the founders who are
48:21
blissfully ignorant, what are three things to watch for to
48:26
spot these differences between actual workload and quote UN
48:32
quote assumed workload? I think one of the biggest
48:36
triggers for when this can start to happen is when you as a
48:39
manager start to have questions about how much work your
48:46
employees are doing. If you at any point start to
48:49
question it, if you start to get these thoughts in your mind of
48:52
Gee, I wonder what this person is doing all day, or wow, I
48:55
haven't heard from this person all day.
48:59
I wonder what's going on if you're starting to see even like
49:02
that, that pattern of minimized communication that could mean
49:07
either that somebody is sitting and twiddling their thumbs and
49:10
maybe need something to do and is maybe a little bit too
49:13
intimidated to come and ask or somebody is just working
49:17
non-stop that they cannot in all human possibility respond to you
49:23
within 10 seconds. So I would say if you're
49:27
starting to get those questions and if you're and if those
49:30
questions are informed by unusual patterns of
49:33
communication or specifically minimized communication, that's
49:37
when I would start to maybe think about investigating what
49:42
that particular person's workload is like.
49:44
And maybe looking at their timesheet entries in Kello
49:47
against the estimated hours that you've that you as their manager
49:51
have entered for their time on all the projects that they've
49:54
been staffed. Take a look at that data and see
49:57
if you can back up some of the assumptions that are already
50:00
starting to form in your head and use that as an opportunity
50:04
to have a discussion with that particular employee.
50:08
But if with your direct report, let's say and, think about how
50:12
you can help them use their time better.
50:15
Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say,
50:17
just to put it really briefly, is if they stop talking, you
50:20
need to start talking. Absolutely.
50:23
Yep, Yep. Because again, communicate 2 two
50:26
way communication. It's going to build the trust
50:28
that we talked about earlier. And we know how important that
50:31
trust is for ensuring productive collaboration, for ensuring that
50:35
people have what they need to get their work done and for
50:38
ensuring that they're that everyone at your company is
50:41
going to have an optimal work experience working there.
50:45
OK, cool. Are there other things to watch
50:49
out for? For instance, if you don't have
50:50
Callow yet to support you. Oh, that's a, that's a very good
50:54
question. I would say as a business
50:57
leader, maintain an open dialogue with the people who are
51:02
working for you and who for the people with the people who are
51:05
working with you. A lot of times I've even seen
51:08
this with a lot of founders. Founders can get all up in their
51:11
heads and we as founders, it's our job to constantly try to
51:16
innovate and think of ways to make our products and services
51:18
and our tools better. But you have to remember about
51:21
all the people who are working alongside you to turn your ideas
51:25
into a reality. And you can't be divorced from
51:29
all the work that they are doing and from the work environment in
51:32
which they're making it all happen.
51:35
So I would say first and foremost, maintain that open
51:37
dialogue so that you always have a pulse, a touch point on the
51:41
working experience of your team members.
51:44
Because as we've talked at great lengths already, you want to
51:47
ensure an optimal working environment and experience for
51:50
your team so that you all have the energy and the motivation to
51:54
continue to innovate. OK.
51:57
So then if you see innovation drop, would that then also be
52:05
because ideally you don't want to rely on metrics like
52:09
attrition and and people leaving, you want to be ahead of
52:13
that. So if you see innovation going
52:17
down in a team over time, would that be a signal for people to,
52:23
let's say, at least start having discussions besides having that
52:27
open line? Right, right.
52:29
I think, I think it certainly could be because I know, you
52:32
know, it's one thing for me to say he was a business leader.
52:35
You, you as a founder maintain that touch point with your
52:38
employees. But I know that not everybody,
52:42
not everybody brings people management, brings people
52:46
management to the forefront. It's a very unique skill that
52:50
that people have. Everyone can learn it, but not
52:53
everybody is equipped to be the best people manager so.
52:59
Pre installed in everyone. Exactly, exactly.
53:01
So I think that your your proxy metric of analyzing innovation
53:09
can can be a really great way to see, you know, whether your
53:12
organization is still on the trajectory that that it needs to
53:15
be. If you see that innovation
53:17
starting to drop, I would caution folks to, for their
53:22
first instinct to be to blame folks, to blame the people who
53:26
are working with them and working for them on the
53:28
innovation drop. Take a little bit of time to
53:31
explore the causality. If innovation is dropping, what
53:35
might be the cause of that? And go all the way back until
53:38
you find the root source of that symptom that you're noticing.
53:43
So you've been building a startup yourself with, I think,
53:48
three female founders. That's correct.
53:50
Yeah. It's three of us at Kellow.
53:53
So how do you do you apply the learnings that you have from
53:58
building it, from building Kellow and also the the
54:01
experience implementing it with customers and then getting show
54:07
actually showing that there is a problem.
54:10
How do you apply that inside your own company?
54:13
Oh my gosh, this is a great question.
54:15
I think for me and my Co founders, Lauren and Julia, we
54:19
have another member of our team, our Chief Marketing officer
54:21
Zach, we're a small but mighty team as a lot of startups are
54:26
and we do a really great job holding one another accountable.
54:31
Again, this I think I'm just very lucky in that amongst my Co
54:35
founders and I and our whole Kello team, we are very trusting
54:39
of one another and we would be remiss to not practice what we
54:44
preach. So again, as we know as
54:47
founders, founders can work crazy, crazy hours.
54:50
But especially for me and Lauren and Julia, if we start to notice
54:55
again, by recognizing those communication patterns, if I
54:58
know that, oh, I haven't heard from Julia in an inordinate
55:02
amount of time, I'm going to be proactive about reaching out to
55:06
her and checking in with her, seeing what's on her plate,
55:09
seeing what's going on. And nine times out of 10, if I
55:13
haven't been hearing from her as frequently as I'm used to, it's
55:16
because she's juggling 1,000,001 things.
55:19
So I want to be able to intervene and say, OK, what is
55:23
currently on your plate that maybe can be de prioritized for
55:26
a bit? What is something that's on your
55:27
plate that we can offload to somebody else who might have a
55:30
little bit more flexibility in their schedule right now?
55:34
How do you how do you keep that out of the blame game?
55:37
I think for us, it's just that we we've built that foundation
55:41
of trust and we're also honest with each other.
55:45
So if, if I've ever made a mistake, I know that my Co
55:49
workers are going to be able to come and tell me that I've made
55:52
the mistake. And you know, they'll give me
55:56
the grace of being able to recognize the mistake and to put
55:59
in the time to correct it and work past it and learn from it
56:02
and not make the mistake again. Because I, as a business leader,
56:06
that's the way that I show up for my team members.
56:08
If somebody makes a mistake, I'm not going to blame them for it
56:12
immediately. They're like, we're all human.
56:14
Nobody's perfect. And I want the people who are
56:17
working with me to be able to learn from the mistakes, learn
56:20
from experiences. And by giving them the grace to
56:25
do so, rather than being automatically punitive again,
56:29
I'm going to make sure that I'm fostering that positive work
56:32
culture. It's going to make people more
56:34
likely to want to work with me. I always want to be someone that
56:37
people want to work with. I think that's very important,
56:40
especially as a founder, as an entrepreneur, That's how I'm
56:44
going to be able to attract the best talent that there is out
56:47
there. So being overly punitive is not
56:50
going to move anything forward. Yeah, I just heard you give
56:54
another indicator for that. Things might be a little bit
57:00
going off the rails if you're not able to attract the people
57:04
you want to attract. That's also.
57:07
Absolutely. Absolutely.
57:09
If yeah, if you have a critical vacancy in your organization and
57:13
you find that you're unable to fill it, I know that, you know,
57:17
in in start up spaces, it's a it's a small world and people
57:21
talk. And if somebody garners a
57:24
perhaps negative reputation, that's going to be something
57:28
that people take note of pretty quickly.
57:31
And nobody wants to work with someone who's not nice to work.
57:37
Not true, absolutely true. So I want to shift towards the
57:41
end of the conversation. Jamie, I'm developing an an AI
57:45
tool for female founders for fundraising.
57:49
I was wondering F for you from your perspective, how much
57:55
invisible work is going into that?
57:57
For you putting together this AI.
57:59
Tool for for you fundraising. Oh, Oh my gosh.
58:05
A lot of it goes on, you know, goes unrecognized.
58:08
For me specifically. I mean, I'm, I'm so honored that
58:12
I had the opportunity to be on this podcast with you, but
58:15
public speaking does not come naturally to me.
58:18
So for me, I know I have to take a lot of time before any
58:23
recording or pitch appearance or meeting to prepare my speaker's
58:30
notes, prepare myself mentally and emotionally for this kind of
58:34
engagement. And for me, that can take a
58:36
couple of hours. But I know that by putting in
58:40
that preparation, I'm going to feel more confident when I get
58:43
to that public speaking setting. I'm hopefully going to have a
58:46
much more fruitful conversation because I've mitigated some of
58:50
my nerves with all the pre preparation.
58:52
So that preparation time for, at least for me speaking
58:56
personally, is some of that invisible labor that some folks
59:00
for whom public speaking comes naturally, they could be able to
59:03
go up on a stage and deliver their pitch and basically wing
59:08
it and it will seem flawless. I need to put in some more time
59:12
before the pitch actually happens so that I can get to the
59:15
same level of fluidity and seamlessness that natural public
59:20
speakers might be able to just get away with.
59:24
OK, so now I'm a bit curious what, what, what are some tips
59:29
that you have for other people who are notes, let's say, crazy
59:35
about public speaking? How do, how do you prepare
59:39
mentally? I mean, the, the, the preparing
59:41
the notes. That's that's well, let's say an
59:46
obvious one. For sure preparing your notes
59:48
and I'll say practice, practice, practice.
59:53
I know it's not going to be a piece of advice that pleases
59:57
everybody because it seems kind of cliche and I know we're all
1:00:01
really busy and practice takes time, but at least for me, it's.
1:00:06
Really been the most effective tool to make sure that I can
1:00:08
show up, that I can feel ready, that I can deliver my message
1:00:12
with clarity and with confidence.
1:00:14
Especially as founders, when we're pitching our ideas to
1:00:17
potential investors, we want to make sure that potential
1:00:20
investors understand the problem, they understand the
1:00:23
solution, and they understand what the product is all about
1:00:26
without any shadow of a doubt. So practicing your elevator
1:00:30
pitch over and over and over again till you feel like you've
1:00:33
perfected it is what's going to make you best able to deliver
1:00:38
that message with the clarity and confidence that's required.
1:00:42
And I think you've done a terrific job at doing that
1:00:46
today. Thank you again.
1:00:47
It's a lot of practice. And if I might add another piece
1:00:50
of advice, part of practice isn't just staring in front of
1:00:53
the mirror and speaking to yourself.
1:00:55
It's maybe stepping out of your comfort zone a little bit,
1:00:58
showing up on podcast recordings just like I am here.
1:01:01
This for me is a wonderful opportunity for me to share the
1:01:05
story of Kello, The facets of Kello with your audience.
1:01:09
But for me personally, it's also an opportunity for me to
1:01:13
practice the way that I communicate about our business,
1:01:16
about my team, about our platform.
1:01:19
And each time I'm able to engage with folks like you, DJ, who are
1:01:23
so kind to give me this platform.
1:01:24
It's my ability to put myself out there, out of my comfort
1:01:28
zone and continue to refine my communication skills.
1:01:31
Well, glad to have had you. Really enjoyed our conversation.
1:01:36
Jamie, if people want to connect with you, learn more about you,
1:01:41
and especially learn more about Kello, where would you like to
1:01:45
send him? Definitely for Kello, you can
1:01:47
find us online at our website that's going to be
1:01:50
www.kellotime.com. We're also on LinkedIn at Kello
1:01:55
Time and we're on Instagram at Kello under score Time.
1:01:59
Folks can also find me on LinkedIn with my name, Jamie
1:02:04
Albaum. I think I'm the only one with my
1:02:06
name on LinkedIn, so it shouldn't be too difficult to
1:02:08
find me. But you can always even find
1:02:11
Kello through my own LinkedIn profile, and I welcome any
1:02:15
direct messages. If folks have any questions
1:02:17
about Kello or even just want to start a conversation one to one,
1:02:23
I'm really excited to hear from any of the folks who are in your
1:02:26
audience. Jamie Albaum, thank you very
1:02:29
much for this conversation. We'll include the links in the
1:02:32
show notes. Of course.
1:02:35
Listeners, thank you very much for listening to this episode.
1:02:38
And until the next episode, as always, keep being awesome.
1:02:55
Thank you for listening to episode 143 of Women Disrupting
1:02:59
Tech, titled How a Female Founder Tackles Invisible Labor
1:03:03
and Startup Burnout with Jamie Albaum.
1:03:06
Jamie and I hope that you had as much fun listening to this
1:03:10
conversation as we had recording it.
1:03:12
And if you have any questions for Jamie, please leave them in
1:03:15
the comments on Spotify, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.
1:03:19
I do read all the comments and I'll make sure you get an
1:03:21
answer. If you want to connect with
1:03:24
Jamie or learn more about Gallow Time, you can do so via the
1:03:28
links in the show notes. As usual, you can find the show
1:03:31
notes at the website Women Disrupting Techno Blog and on my
1:03:35
sub stack. Find the links in the caption.
1:03:38
If you found this episode helpful, please take a moment to
1:03:41
rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or
1:03:45
YouTube. And if you don't follow us yet,
1:03:47
please hit the follow or subscribe button so you never
1:03:50
miss a future episode. Once again, thank you for
1:03:54
listening. I hope to see you in the next
1:03:56
episode. And until then, as always, keep
1:04:00
being awesome.