Latest / Bro-ing Pains / I Thought Love Meant Staying | Unpacking Abuse, Manipulation & Shame

Transcript

I Thought Love Meant Staying | Unpacking Abuse, Manipulation & Shame · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: For so long I didn't realize that I was trying to make my parents proud because I felt like I almost shamed them so much by being gay.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: That even led into the way that I stayed in relationships like this one.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: What's up, world?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Growing Pain, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So my friends like to call me Papa Chat.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Carlos, theater kid or self-proclaimed corporate copy.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: All right, welcome back, everyone.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is season two, episode nine.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a question for you, Chad.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: What do control and manipulation actually look like in a relationship?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you know when you're in an abusive one?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Today's conversation also asked us to sit with an uncomfortable truth.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Statistically, men are more often the perpetrators of abuse.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And while we're going to unpack the psychology behind these behaviors, this is not about excusing them.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's about understanding them so they can be recognized, interrupted, and changed.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Helping us unpack that today is my good friend Mauritio, an educator, advocate, and content creator who explores Latinidad, queerness, and culture.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Maudi holds a master's degree in urban education and educational policy from Loyola Maramount University, and his work centers on helping people unpack identity, culture, and power in real time.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: He describes himself as queer, prieto, indigena y cabrón.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: And today he's bringing us into a deeply personal story.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're now joined by Mauricio Amaral Vasquez, our third guest.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm super excited to have you on.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, from the very beginning of the podcast, you've been a supporter of us.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like a full circle moment to have you on and to hear about your story.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me, y'all.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really appreciate y'all.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we present to you vignette number 007, Mauricio's story.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up believing that love meant staying in Las Buenas and Las Malas through the good times and the bad.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was taught.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I saw.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then when you love someone, you don't leave, you fight for it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So when I fell in love for the first time when I was a when I was younger, I loved deeply, fully, without hesitation.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in the beginning, it felt right.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: We had a rhythm, a connection.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: There was laughter, there was warmth, there was something that felt like home.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: But there was also alcohol.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And at first, I told myself it wasn't a big deal that everyone has their vices.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I grew up with people around my household with vices themselves.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: That love means being patient, being understanding.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Until the night started changing, the tone would shift, the energy would shift, and the person I fell in love with would become someone I didn't recognize.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: The first time it happened, I was shocked.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: The second time, I was confused.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: By the third, I was already explaining it away.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't mean it.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: He was drunk, he's going through something.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a hard season.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because in my mind, leaving wasn't an option.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Leaving meant I didn't love him enough.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Leaving meant I wasn't strong enough to stay.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I stayed.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: For almost four years, I stayed.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Through the physical abuse, through emotional and verbal attacks, through the moments that chipped away at who I was.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish I could say I was just a victim the whole time.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: But there were moments I fought back, moments where I became someone I didn't recognize myself.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's the part we don't talk about enough.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: How abuse can blur the lines of who you are, how it can pull you into a version of yourself you never thought you'd be.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: But the turning point wasn't one of those moments.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was a day he dislocated my knee.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being on the ground thinking, not how did this happen, but why am I still here?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Something in me snapped.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe something in me finally woke up.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because love, real love, should not hurt like this.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that realization changed everything.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Leaving wasn't easy, healing was definitely not fast.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: It took years of therapy, years of unlearning what I thought love was supposed to be, years of relearning how to love myself.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And learning that staying is not always strength.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes leaving is.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: But so many don't talk about it because we're taught that being hurt makes us weak or less of a man.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we stay silent, we minimize, we explain it away, which means there are many people, especially men, living stories like mine quietly, believing they just need to love harder, stay longer, and endure more.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if sharing my story helps even one person feel less alone or recognize themselves sooner than I did, then it's worth it.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because en las buenas and las malas was never meant to include Lucy myself.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Today I understand something I wish I knew back then.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Love should feel safe, love should feel honest, love should feel like you can fully be yourself without fear.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And most importantly, love should never hurt.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, thank you for sharing that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Just uh it's uh incredibly vulnerable vignette.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: How are you feeling about all of this now?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's interesting because um I was with this person with in this relationship.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would say they were my first like serious relationship.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: We moved in together, did all the things that I thought um that I was taught relationships are done, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think as gay people it's really hard because we are trying to live by the rules that we are taught in heterosexual relationships, because that's who raced us, like right, a mom and a dad.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we get into relationships, we try to go into the same boxes.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, okay, I'm in a relationship.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: When we went together, like I said, I stay with this person through the tough times, the good times, and the bad times.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I saw many of my aunts and uncles do the same things, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, because they love each other, because of the children, they stayed together.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was back, it ended in 2013.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So more than 10 years ago, now at this point, almost 15 years ago, since this relationship ended.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so now when I look back at it, I look back at it as a learning experience, and it's really interesting as well because I'm actually really good friends with this ex-partner now.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: They've done a lot of work to heal themselves, they've gone through like AA programs, so they've been sober for a couple years, like anger management classes, they found spirituality, so they're very like spiritual, and so like they really have honed in into their own self and the pain that they've caused in in their life before.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's one of the reasons why we've been able to become friends, because we've been able to rectify the pain that was done while also realizing that we're all human and we can move forward.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so me talking about it is not as hard as it was years ago, I guess I could say.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, there's been years of therapy and years of uh relearning what love looks like.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: You probably wouldn't be able to do this 10 years ago.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, no, no, no.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I probably would just start crying reading the vignette, but now I'm like in a very good place where I'm able to talk about this, uh, so that other people also know that there is an a better place, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And even I'm not saying that everybody's gonna be confronts with their uh abuser, but there is like another layer to life, I guess you could say.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I echo what Carlos was saying.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, thank you for being willing to share just because it's great that you you've had some time to be able to talk about this.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like comedians when they try to talk about a traumatic event, like you can't start crying on that stage.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta make sure you're you're uh showing up and doing the work beforehand.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing that I wanted to kind of start and ask is like as I was watching you even explaining just right now about the process of these 13 years, like there's there's this whole stages of grief of like the losing yourself part that you talked about and grieving that, like, you know, did I do this to myself because I stayed too long?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and battling the shame.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And how has that journey been of trying to you know understand in a healthy way that it's okay, like it wasn't your fault that it happened, and you're not a bad person for um letting someone do this, like you didn't let this happen to you, you didn't ask, but I think there's a lot of just like confusion around that as someone who's been a victim, I'm sure, of of abuse.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to open the floor for that kind of conversation too.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I I hear that a lot, uh especially with people that are going through like domestic violence.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times people always say, Oh, I never thought that this would happen to me, or like uh I'm not the type of person that like this happens to.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tell people like, it's it's not what you did, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's never like the we need to stop like victim shaming almost.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes victims themselves do that, but like you just find yourself in these situations, and sometimes it's either love or the way that you were brought up that really like blinds you into continuing to be into relationship in a relationship that's abusive.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And in this particular relationship with me, I think there was a lot of like chipping away at myself-worth, uh, who I was, what what type of love I deserved, to a point where like I started to believe that this was like the most the best love I could get, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: The the best person I deserved.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it, a lot of that does come from like a place of trauma, like the way that you are treated when you're a child, or it always goes back to you being a child, honestly.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Everything goes back to you being a child.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: You can attest to that, Chad, as as the therapist, uh, as a living, but you're not therapizing now, but as a living, you do that.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: It all goes back to a child when you you were a kid and the way that you think that you deserve love.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me, it was it became that like this is the love that I deserve.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I stayed.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: For a while, there was a sort of shame around, like, oh, I can't believe I let this happen to me.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I'm the type of person that was more afraid of what people were gonna think about him, right?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Especially people that had met him, my friends, my family, like, oh, people like dealt, because it was all in closed doors behind closed doors.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so when people started thinking, like, oh, I did not know that he was this type of person, and I think it was also trying to make people realize, well, this is not the person that he is, like the actions never make the person, right?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I've heard you in in a previous episode, Chat, say, like, nobody is inherently a bad person, people make bad choices.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And even as like a teacher, I would always tell my students that, like, you're not a bad student, you're just making horrible choices, and you need to make better choices.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for him, not being able to control how much he drank and how that triggered his anger was the choices that he was making, and and the choice that I was making was staying in the relationship.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even from talking to you before this episode is just like the compassion that you have for for him and being able to that that shows I think a lot of growth from your part, but what is the understanding of like why the abuse was occurring?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you kind of have an understanding of of where that came from and why this was happening?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Over the years, we've been able to talk about that, and I think a lot of the things that he's explained make sense.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So he also was trying to fit into a mold of like what heteronormativity was telling us that we needed to do.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And now over the years, he's realized that he's not like uh a person that can do monogamy, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's not like a person that can do like one partner at a time.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he's realized that over the years, and I think during our relationship, there was a lot of resentment that he felt to the fact that he felt like he needed to be monogamous and doing this relationship.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: He did, he cheated a lot, he did cheat a lot, and uh over every time that he cheated, I would like forgive him because again, I was like, oh, you know, these are just the bad times that you need to like, you know, forgive the person that you love.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think now that we talk about it, he's like, Yeah, he's like, I just wasn't A, like I had an alcohol problem, B, I was then I realized I was not a monogamous person, like a person it could be in a monogamous relationship.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I held resentment towards you because of that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he was also a very jealous person because of that, because he was cheating on the side, he was expecting me to also do the same thing, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was times where like we would go to the gay bars, and if I like looked at the gogo dancers, he would get upset.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: He'd be like, Oh, why the fuck are you looking at them?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, do you want to go home with them?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it is?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you I was like?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're literally there.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you go to a gay bar, there's like 10 go-go dancers, and I think a lot of that insecurities, and another thing was insecurities, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of those insecurities also came from I met him because he was a go-go dancer.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So he used to go go dance for like uh this clip poppy like event.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like a traveling go-go dancer, that's how we met.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So he knew a lot of the go-go dancers, so whenever I would like look at them, he would get mad.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it got to a point where like after years, whenever we would go to gay bars, and this is crazy to say, I would not look at the go-go dancers.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would just like look down because I did not want to start an argument with him.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or it got so bad with like I would count the drinks that he was drinking, and I would purposely like toss some of the drinks or replace them with water.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like some of the bartenders, like, oh, can you just give me a drink with eyes and uh just water, like in a in a drink cut so it looks like a drink?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because he was so drunk he wouldn't know the the the difference.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I started almost building the um like safe guessing.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to ensure like, oh, if he gets too drunk, you know, when we get home, he might get violent.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or if I look at the gold dancers, I'm gonna hear about it later.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So little things like that that I thought that I had in my control.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: To make sure that we were in a peace that was a peaceful night, um, which is crazy to not talk about.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's so much that you put on yourself to manage.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Something else that I I wanted to unpack a little more was the the different um facets of of your identity, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Of being being part of the Latino community, it is so normalized to to stick through it, you know, like thick and thin or whatever.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and like whether that be like religious reasons, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like that you you you don't break up a family and you have to stay loyal.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was wondering if you could just like say more and and I guess like how that impacted you and in that relationship specifically.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like like I mentioned, like it's something that like I mean, at least I grew up seeing, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like my aunts and uncles, or like like we all, I don't know about you, Carlos, or even you chat, I don't want to speak for your experiences, but personally like I know other folks that are Latino, first generation, we all had that Thea or that Theo that we just knew that the Theo like hit our Thea, right?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like we just knew.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like if my Theo got too drunk and they left angry, I remember being a kid and there'd be times where like I literally would hear my Thea getting like hit inside the house because like one of my Theos was too drunk.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so even though like personally I my dad did not hit my mom, I still grew up in those environments, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I still like learned something about it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And even going back to the shame, I think a lot of the shame also came about because my dad never hit my mom.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Even when my mom found out that this happened to me, there was like shame towards that, right?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because she was like, what?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why would you let yourself get hit?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I she always racists to hit back, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Even friends now know that like I'm never one to start fights, but if someone hits me, like I'm gonna end the fight, and that's the way that I was like raised, but in a relationship was so much different because I saw that toxicity almost in like those left in my and like the first generation immigrant familias that we grew up in.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or even like just knowing that like the Theo cheats on my tia and like they're still together because of the children, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So little things like that.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's so crazy to now think about that.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I we grew up with that and we normalize that as children because, like you said, Carlos, because of religion, because of que va decir la gente, like que va a decir la gente is like so powerful in the Latino community, it's crazy to me.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if if you No, I don't know.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: What is that phrase?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, que va a decir la gente translate to like what are people gonna say?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Que va a decir la gente, okay.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it like guides like immigrant households and marriages and like what they do, what they say.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have a tia who has been divorced with her with my tío for more than 10 years now, and they think that none of us know, and they pretend like they're still together, even though they haven't lived in the same house for more than 10 years.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are people gonna say?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's so crazy.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like the main the main pe people that you're talking about when you're saying what are the people gonna say is the dominant culture because you is it because you would say immigrant communities are wanting to make sure that they're saving faith, that they're respected in dominant culture?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I would say so.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: At least I grew up that way.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you have a different experience, Carlos.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to hear what about you, Carlos?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: La gente for me is is just your your family, your community.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Your family.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but I do think that that like on a larger context, I feel like that also plays a part, you know.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I like I think about my own mom and like my my own family situation.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that definitely plays a part of saving face.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, like this is like where there is so much constantly telling us, like, no, this is how you should do it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: You you gotta do XYZ, and and if and if you don't fit into a mold, then you're othered, right?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, so I think that's that definitely plays a part.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny that not funny, but it's I guess the irony uh doesn't um pass me when immigrant communities are saying que va de ser la gente when like la gente is also having abusive relationships and you know yelling at their kids, or you know what I mean?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, bro, it's like you're you're trying to you're trying to save Faze, but you know, Bill and Julie down the block are fucking having just as much violence as you, so it's so interesting that you say that, Chad, because I constantly will talk to my mom about that, because sometimes she'll she'll fall into that as well.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, mom, why doesn't it matter?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like literally, my Tia's are doing the same shit or going through the same shit, and like it doesn't matter.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Cabasila Gente is really powerful in a lot of immigrant communities.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just as an example, when I came out of the closet, my immediate family cut out my extended family.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they stopped talking to my extended family because they didn't want the shame of me being gay, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so for years now, they don't talk to my extended family because they're almost like ashamed of like, well, Mauri's gay, so que vaya si la gente, like he I'm almost like disproving the fact that we had like this perfect family.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm imagining that that you feel a sense of guilt of your family having lost their relationships with extended family.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that also leads into the way that I had relationships, right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I always felt like, oh, I already like shamed them by being gay.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have to have like great relationships or I have to do great in my life.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that there's no other points of contention when it comes to me.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have to be another headache or another point of shame, I I guess you could say.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that I've also learned to like you're so therapy, right?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like for so long I didn't realize that I was trying to make my parents proud because I felt like I almost shamed them so much by being gay.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And e that even led into the way that I stayed in relationships like this one.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: There there's just so much toxicity there, and it's it's it feels it feels really unfair to you.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: For content shad, um, so I don't talk to my immediate family.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I only talk to my mom, uh, but I don't talk to my siblings or my dad.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was actually kicked out of my house when I was 18 because I came out of the closet.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's also that contest to it, right?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: How long has it been since you were estranged with your other parts of your family?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: My dad and my little brother haven't talked to them since 2020.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we have that in common.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: We both don't talk to our dad.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, yeah.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Trauma bonding.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yay! Fuck our dads.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I wanted uh switch gears a little bit and and talking about I think one of one of our favorite topics, Mauri, is pop culture.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: In the news you hear about things like Dolores Huerta speaking out against um Cesar Chavez, and then the whole the bachelorette scandal with what's her name?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Frankie Frankie Taylor Paul?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she has three three boy names.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Three three first names, three first boy names.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Three first names.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah, like I I think that um I guess my first question is is just like what does that all sort of do to you or or mean to you?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like that thing, like this is um I mean for one, it's always been around and and it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere, but like it's important to to to talk about this and and not not let people in positions of power just do whatever the fuck they want to and and get away with it, you know what I mean?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think that I think that's the the point that I was trying to make earlier of like these are with Cesaf Chavez, you know, like somebody who he was the face of that movement, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: And because of that, I feel like he got away with so much, and people, you know, were afraid to speak up and and for years just this went, you know, like not talked about or unnoticed or whatever.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I want to unpack that a little bit of of how power influences people, I guess, for or against, you know, speaking speaking out against that.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can start with talking about like the Bachelorette situation.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: So Frankie Taylor Paul, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think when things like that with like the Frankie Taylor Paul situation comes out in the media, as somebody who has gone through domestic violence myself, I always think about and this is probably a horrible thing to say, but I always think like, okay, but what did the man do?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like what did that man do to her for her to get to that point, right?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the past I've heard a term um like re I I can't think of the name, but it's like almost like retard retaliatory abuse.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like the victim like almost like snaps and abuses back.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and even in in my vignette, I kind of, you know, name that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I like I would never in my life have ever put my hands on somebody, even relationships that I have before or after that relationship.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: But in in the thick of it, when somebody is like hitting you, like I start I started hitting him back and started getting into literal fistfights with with my ex-partner, and it was a a form of almost like protecting myself, but I also knew that I was kind of like also extending that abuse now to him.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when the whole uh Frankie Taylor Paul thing came out, that's the first thing that I thought about.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like we see as soon as he's recording, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because he's the one recording with this happening, and in the video, he's like smiling or kind of like laughing while she's like screaming at him, asking him to leave, throwing things at him, and he's just recording her.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So in my head, I'm like, okay, but what did he do to her for her to get to that place?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe he didn't, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he didn't do anything to her.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe this is just who she is, and she's actually the abuser.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know that, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not in that relationship.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: But my head, my my first thought was that was what did he do for her to get to that to that place?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really good point, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is if if people are responding from abuse in a self-protective way, like they need to protect themselves.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, if you need to hit someone back, you need to hit someone back to get off of you or whatever.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think about two different things that popped up in my head.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: One was the Ray Rice incident in the NFL.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: This was about 15, maybe 10 years ago.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and was in an elevator, I think, and like he like either slapped or punched the shit out of his partner.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then so, like, in my opinion, this is where it gets dangerous of like, okay, well, if you say in the same respect, what did she do?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it doesn't, it doesn't justify any behavior, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I don't I don't I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think that what you're saying though, it needs to be acknowledged, right?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because when people hit back, right, it doesn't mean that they're need to be labeled as an abuser, right?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: It means that they are protecting themselves, right?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also think about the very famous Bill Burr joke when he tries to um hilariously um say that really there's no reason to hit a woman, and he tries to talk about it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's he's like trying to justify it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: He's trying in in his comedic way, in his fucked up way, he's trying to say that like she must have done something for him to go to that point.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, and I could separate the comedy from all that stuff, and I get it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, people can think Bilber's funny, and I think he is sometimes too, but that's so like that's such a slippery slope to say that, right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you're saying that like these behaviors are justifiable, that like, oh, you pushed me to the edge, so that's why I hit you.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, no, you you still have a choice on how you respond.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: But again, if you're the victim of abuse and then you hit back, it's like, I don't know if people necessarily have a choice at that point, right?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you are fighting for survival, and I think so that's why like I want to both name that there is no justification for hitting back and being abusive, but I also want to name what you're saying, Marty, is like, well, no, sometimes we need to protect ourselves, right?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just really hard balance to figure out.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to bring the those those two pop culture things popped in my head.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's something that you said when you were talking um around like the justification, like you pushed me to that edge, and that's why I hit you.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that reminded me almost like as being a kid, like sometimes, I mean, we I don't know about you, Chad, but in the Latino household, the cinto the bell is a common It's a staple.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a staple, thank you.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a common form of discipline.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes those same words I remember my mom saying, like, oh, porque está haciendo esto, like you you're making me do this almost.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know quiero, pero tú me like you're forcing me to hit you, and and so then almost like hearing the same thing as an adult, like you're pushing me over the edge, and it's you did something for me to hit you.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's crazy that even years later, as you're saying that, I still made now I made that connection of like, oh shoot, like I heard that as a kid, yeah, which might have been why when I heard it as an adult, it felt damn acceptable almost.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you want to know what's funny what I say to parents when they try to justify, like, oh, well, I have to yell because they're not listening.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I say, Okay, so when you're not listening and you're on your phone, is it okay for your kids to yell at you?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I throw it right back at, I'd be like, Okay, so when you're being a bad parent or a bad boy, like they get to spank you too?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that what you're saying?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're like, Well, no, of course not.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, then you're you're creating this power imbalance.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And look, there does need to be some authoritative authority when it comes to like protecting your kids and safety and all that stuff.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're gonna raise people to be respectable, like we we don't we don't get to hit people.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: It does there is no justification for that.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really great that you were able to acknowledge that, like, oh man, maybe I thought that it was acceptable because of my mom coming with the junkla or whatever, like being like, you know, like for for white people it's the wooden spoon, but um for just you know, we're all you know, culturally divergent.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think the wooden spoon was used on me once or twice because I think my mom felt her her like her American self.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: She was culturally appropriating the wooden spoon.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then usually happened when she was cooking and she used to throw it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she always had the best aim.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't matter how much I six stacked, it always hit me.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, how were you as a as a kid?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Were you like a rambunctious kid?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's another thing, right?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think Chad, you were a Rembrandt's kid.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Extremely.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was too.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell people that like now looking back at it, um Carlos, I've shared this with you.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have an ADHD, and so like my parents didn't know how to raise a child with ADHD, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would always say, Katania, uh, or might I have ants in my hat in my ass because I couldn't stay still.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was a running joke.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I for me, because I have ADHD and my parents didn't know that when I was a child, I always tell people, like, when people hear, like, oh, the way that I was raised, or they like my parents used to hit me because they just couldn't deal with an ADHD child, I always tell people like they just did the best they could, right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I look that that goes for a lot of parents.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like parenting, nobody has a parenting manual.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I give them the the benefit of the doubt that they were just trying to do their best with an with an ADHD child.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: But in hindsight, they did, you know, use the belt multiple times on me, which might have been um what's the word I'm not instructed, but almost like molded me into when I was in an abusive relationship, for that to be like it was okay for that to happen.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like as human beings, we want to be able to explain things or like understand things and and to unpack them.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so like when it comes to this this issue around control and manip manipulation, like it's important that we state or or that we hold men accountable because men are the main perpetrators of control and abuse and manipulation.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we can also hold space for like how how they got there, right?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and like what what to unpack that and try to find some sort of like yeah, some sort of explanation there, you know.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really feel like men, you know, despite if they have done abusive behaviors or not, we need to be able to acknowledge that um living in a patriarchal society is perpetuating opportunities of violence either for yourself or for your fellow men.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to figure out ways to change the system so that these expectations or these um the these systems that allow abuse and without repercussions um don't continue.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a hard pill to swallow, I think, for men.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a hard uh pill for uh white people to swallow to be able to acknowledge that the way that you move through the world is pr potentially perpetuating white supremacy and um you need to be able to have that sense of um the sense of humility and that take off your your white guilt and uh show the fuck up and and start making some changes.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you saying chat saying that, chat, because they do go hand in hand.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh patriarchy and white supremacy are definitely very much embedded to one another.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things that I keep thinking about as we're talking about this episode, or even as I live I've listened to different episodes that the two of you have uh uh created, I constantly think about how this is almost like an anti um podcast to like the metosphere that we are constantly with constantly growing, right?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about like uh when we talk about like domestic violence, that's one of the things that uh I I fear that a lot more uh women and a lot more partners are gonna experience domestic violence in the upcoming years because so many of our young men are growing up with the menosphere and this belief that uh others are there to serve them as men, they are superior, and um these beliefs are like these uh figures of the manosphere could constantly feed our our young men.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's a constant fear of mind that we're gonna see more cases of domestic violence, or or even uh tragically more like uh I don't know what's a term when like a partner kills their partner.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's like a term for it.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would just call it intimate partner violence at that point.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like we're gonna see more of that.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So those numbers are gonna spike for sure.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh at least that's the way that I've been looking at it.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you could give like a bit of advice or or what you have you learned when it comes to relationships moving forward, like, you know, before when you were suffering abuse or or manipulation, like you tried to find ways to um either avoid it or to minimize the damage, right?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or to try to do these other things, like change the alcohol to water or whatever, right?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think that you and and what do you want other people to respond in those situations to make sure that they're adequately protecting themselves, um, but also like sticking up for themselves and not getting hurt?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you want to respond in those particular situations in the future?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that I've learned, um, and I tell this to people all the time, is that you can't change somebody, right?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of times people stay in relationships like, oh, I can be the person to change that man.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I can make him a better person.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or yes, they might be abusive, but like if I just am good to them, they're gonna see what a good person I am and they're gonna change, and that's never gonna happen.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And just point blank period.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: If it does happen, you are the minority, not the majority, right?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're the exception, not the rule.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're the exception, not the rule.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and because at least in my situation, my ex-partner would never have got to AA, never have started his journey to spirituality, would never have like understood his faults and understood that it was because the way that he was raised that he felt like he needed to manipulate, I mean, um not manipulate, um, control, uh, abuse.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: He needed to do those things in order to feel love.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: It it was when we parted ways and I decided to choose myself, and he decided to be a better person of himself that that happened.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: But that never was gonna happen if we stayed together.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's one of the biggest things that I learned is that you're not gonna be able to change somebody.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: They have to do it for themselves.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so to anybody that's going through domestic violence in this moment, I need you to hear that.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're not gonna change that man, you're not gonna change that woman.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: They are who they are until they don't have you anymore.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times that is the trigger, right?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because once you're long gone, the trigger is, oh shoot, like I did mess up.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I let go of a great person, and I was such a shitty person to them, and now I have to like cope with that with myself and be able to become a better person through therapy, through self-worth.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my eds didn't go to therapy specifically, like in a traditional way, but he found like meditation, spirituality, which is a form of therapy uh in in in many uh cultures.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so there it it that never would have happened if I was there, right?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And also I think there's a a a shame attached to it, like we mentioned earlier, like, oh, like I I don't want people to think that I'm the person that allowed this to happen.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's never something that you allow to happen to you, it's just something that happened.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: And now you can use your experience to ensure that we break that shame down, right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's different shame that our communities have.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's that shame of domestic violence, there's a shame of like in the LGBT community, there's a big shame around like HIV uh prevention or being HIV positive or things like that.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's so different shames that we want to like start to chip away, especially when it comes to men experiencing domestic violence.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just really appreciate you taking the time to do this.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of a blessing to be able to have someone talk about their vulnerability like this.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen often, not only on a podcast format, but just in day-to-day life.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And to have someone being willing to talk about this is um it's just incredible.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for for sharing your story and and people can learn from this.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, of course.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate y'all so much for having me.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Carlos asked me when we were prepping for this episode, he was like, Oh, is it okay for you to talk about it?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know how your ex is gonna feel.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, it's also easier to talk about because I have a relationship with my ex-partner, and we have openly talked about this, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he has openly like admitted to some of the things I have, to some of my faults.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we're able to have that conversation.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to just nail down that what he did was the actions, it was not who he was, right?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: He is a a great person, um, and and I wish him nothing but the best.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and and also, like you mentioned, Carlos, like I am the exception.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't get to reconcile with their abusers, and that's fine, but I think the important part is that they reconcile with the fact that it wasn't their fault.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Reconcile with themselves.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like the abuse was not your fault, and it also does not say anything about what you're worth.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's another thing that people always think about, like, oh, this is probably all I'm worth, and it's not like at all.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: We like to end this with just a moment for you to like plug yourself, whether that be like your social media, whether that be like anything you have upcoming, anything you want to share with the world.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm at the pit stop.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I will it's like drag raise when the the hotel's always like, okay, tell me what's going on in your life.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Where can the girls follow you?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is that moment.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so currently not going on tour anytime soon.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: If people want to follow me, uh all of my social media is it's just a talk.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's it's just a talk all together.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's TikTok, Instagram.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can go follow me.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Currently have become the Coachella and Stagecoach guru for some reason.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Don't know how, but that's how I became.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So put your content out there, people.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is my that is my advice for people scared of content creation.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Just put it out there.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody will see her.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think the broing pain really lies in the humility that I think men have to be able to have.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: That like some of our behaviors that we're doing are perpetuating manipulation and violence.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um it's just really hard to admit.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about Mariscio's ex-partner and just like the years of self-reflection that it had to take to get to this point.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's really painful shit.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's really tough.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, my hope is that more men um do that for themselves because it's gonna be so healing, not only for them, but for all their relationships that they have.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: The broing pain for me would be just how control and manipulation is so deeply rooted in you know, as we were talking about earlier, in the patriarchy and white supremacy and and like yeah, it's just it's heartbreaking how normalized it is, like and and both sexes, right?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like both women and men experience this and and um you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: are our are victim to that.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think that's why I'm just excited about this episode to continue that conversation and and to to to get more more people talking because because there is so much fear around what are people gonna say you know what are what does that mean for me?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like what what does what does that mean for myself worth even my identity?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And there's like there's so many reasons why people are silenced and or and stay silent.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: My takeaway has really come down to like how shame can really dictate a lot of what we do or how we live our lives, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or decisions that we make.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it kind of encapsulates encapsulates both of your growing pains because there's a place in shame in both of those whether it's shame to like realize the the pain you have caused and then you have to do the work or shame and not speaking up about these experiences.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think once we uh peel the the the the layers of shame I think there is like gonna be more people that are healing and becoming better parts of our society specifically just because I know that it's never the victim's fault.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: And like I mentioned like for the abuser it's it's the actions that the abuser has taken it's not who the abuser is as a person.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there is some abusers who internalize these those actions and do essentially become bad people.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that there's not bad people in the world um but for the most part it it's because of that shame of not reconcile reconciling with your actions or the things that were you know done to you.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: I talk so much about shame in my work and I talk about the decoupling process of shame has to lean into there's seem shame and guilt.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Guilt is I did something bad shame is I am bad and so there's a difference there and you need to be able to take appropriate responsibility and feel guilty for the things that you did to hurt people.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: But then kind of what you said Carlos is like now what?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean like you have a choice on how you're going to respond and reconcile and repair relationships and move forward and be an advocate like you Mauricio to other people like I mean you you have a choice on how you respond.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: So let's not stay stuck in that shame because there's a lot more that you can do for the world.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: All right and so we leave you with this closing question.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: What's one behavior you've normalized in a relationship that if you're honest with yourself shouldn't be normalized at all so thanks again for joining us for another episode of Browing Pains.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know this whole season two we have been covering covert male depression and our last episode which is our next one is kind of the culmination and the extreme of what happens if we don't work on our covert male depression.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So everything from suicide self harm suicidal ideation we're gonna really unpack all that.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's a really important tough topic but we'd love to have you um join us and listen in.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: You mad bruh