Latest / Substack Writers Salon / Niche Down or Stay Open? A Conversation With Memoir Coach Esther Harder

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Niche Down or Stay Open? A Conversation With Memoir Coach Esther Harder · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we are live.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, hi, everyone, to another episode of the Substack Writer Salon.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I have today with me Esther Harder, who is a book coach.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: She helps memoir writers craft outsider stories that connect.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's also an author accelerator certified book coach and memoir.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Esther.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming here.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for those who don't know me, my name is Natasha Tynes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like to call myself the book finisher.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I help people finish their books through ghostwriting,
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: book coaching, and also publishing services.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Esther, so we have a lot in common.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: We do.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks to Substack for putting us in touch.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we can talk about a lot of things.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I hope some people will join online.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: If not, then they can watch the replay as usual.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Esther, you're a memoir book coach.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: How did that happen?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: How did you become a memoir book coach?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I became a memoir book coach because I was interested primarily in starting out
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: by telling my own story.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in process of Yeah.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, I got excited about like, how does this work?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started studying that and then noticed there was a book coaching program
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: through Author Accelerator.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so then within that program,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I learned even more about how you can blend both nonfiction skills
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: or novel like fiction writing skills to
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: So why did you specialize specifically in memoir coaching and not like being
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: a book coach in general?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because you said you also write fiction.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I am a book coach for both.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm not doing it right.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I am also here to learn.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so why did you only choose that box or that genre?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, memoir is what I'm certified in, but I can coach kind of across all genres.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I choose to focus to make it easier for people to find me, perhaps.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: In addition,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: with memoir,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I find that a lot of people,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: we reach a certain age in our life and then we start looking back and going like,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: huh, why did I do the things that I did or what happened to me?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I the way I am now?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that often results in some writing and then people often then process
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: and are like, well, maybe I want to put this out in the world in a bigger way.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I really...
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would agree it's across all genres, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you're an authorized book coach and I'm pretty familiar with the program,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: The Author Accelerator.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: I looked into it and it sounded great, but honestly, it was a bit expensive for me.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering how important is certification when you're a book coach?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Was it really worth all the investments?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And does it even make a difference when you're in client acquisition?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those are great questions.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: so the author accelerator certification program is trying to be the leader in
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: the field for book coaches.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very rigorous program.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the investment is equal to the rigor that you have to go through to get through this program.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of reading and then there's practicum assignments
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: where we work one-on-one with clients on recorded calls so
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: that other people can watch us in real time and give us feedback on our coaching.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: As to whether like, do you need a certification to be a book coach?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, you could be a book coach with the skills that you have.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think the difference with having the certification is we're all connected,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of the Certified coaches are connected in a community.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a network of knowledge.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so if a client comes and asks some kind of question that I haven't encountered
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  SPEAKER_00: before,
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  SPEAKER_00: I can say,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I have 450 people behind me who might let me go check in with them.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so we can bounce ideas off each other and get support.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then in addition,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: different book coaches within the community Focus on different parts of
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: the publication pipeline.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know as much about if my client wants to self-publish all the steps
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: that are involved,
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  SPEAKER_00: like to format and get the book onto Amazon or, you know, pick your platform.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I could research that for them,
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: but it's much faster to just drop a line in the community and say,
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: who focuses on this?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are coaches that like they're Specific niches like I want
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: to get people self-published.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I just do this routinely.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can pass your client to me and they can do that part.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I focus more on the very early stages actually of a memoir or of planning,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is like the person has an idea.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: They think they want to write their memoir,
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: but they're at that stage of like, I live this really full life.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get all of that?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's helping them think through their life and curate their life
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: and apply some kind of structure that might work as a book.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you do in a book coaching session?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is it mindset work?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is it outline?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do live editing, developmental editing?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is your session like in a memorable coaching session?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it depends a little bit.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: It depends if the person is way at the beginning and they haven't written anything
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: yet and we're working on structure.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're way at the beginning,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: there's a specific Method done by Author Accelerator Coaches,
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: which is called the Blueprint.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tool that asks 14 questions and it's very intensive to get the writer
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: to really collect their ideas.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's similar to writing a book proposal.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like drafting all those pieces that would be in a proposal,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: but doing that before you've started writing to start collecting your ideas
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: of what do I actually want this book to be.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: If a client is at that stage,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: what I'm doing is assigning them a few of those questions at a time and
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: then reading what they've written so far and then giving them feedback of like,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you're thinking of traditional publishing,
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: but you're telling me something else,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: these two elements don't quite line up,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: and you might need to adjust your vision in this manner to meet that goal.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like clicking all these multiple variables into place to create
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: the product, which is the book, that might best fit this goal.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: If the client's farther along and actively doing writing,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: then yes,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: then I'm receiving pages prior to a call,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: developmentally editing the pages,
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: and then jumping on the call to clarify my comments,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: but also to address maybe the higher level concerns about that work that might carry
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: over to other chapters or other parts that they're writing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you structure your coaching program?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you like do like a card with like,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: hey, I want a coaching session or do you like enrolled in and like along?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So for me,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: I structure my program specifically like 120 days,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: especially for people Who have the idea but they want to start.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we do like a four-month program.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll take them from idea to a manuscript.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you structure your program?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's similar.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: I split it up into three chunks as starting places.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then they can pick from that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So one is that they...
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Have this idea, but they haven't written anything yet.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so then they would do kind of the planning process with me.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or there's like a container that's like,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to write forward with you until I get my project done.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a different container that It has a number of calls and a number
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: of submissions in it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also for the people that have a draft,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes they want a manuscript revision, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a manuscript review, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I can do that as well, where they submit a manuscript to me.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I read it through closely and provide an editorial letter of a punch list
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: of what their next revision steps might entail.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of those pieces can segue into more work with me as
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: the writer determines what support they might like.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you get your appliance?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's hard to explain what a book coach is.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so how do you like publicize your offers and get clients?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is your method?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was curious too for you.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to jump in and explain how you explain what a book coach is to people.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I try to explain like I take.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I take a writer from their idea all the way to finished manuscript if they want to.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the steps along the way that I particularly like helping with.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Where I find people.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I do find that Substack is a great platform to get out my point of view.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: My Substack is called Write Like an Outsider.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because my niche of people that I'd like to serve are writers that have battered passports.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning that they're well-traveled and maybe they spent a long time in one
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  SPEAKER_00: or multiple countries.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And now they're perceiving their life through kind of a multi-layered lens.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they're writing a book somewhere in that zone.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a hard mouthful to explain like, who is that?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Am I in that?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I use my Substack to kind of show like,
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: here's like the type of person I would like to serve.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or here are some of the main issues you might be having if you're writing in this zone.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of my posts at Write Like an Outsider are meant to help
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I useSubstack for outreach.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's some word of mouth.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I am just getting started.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was certified last year, so I'm still building and happy to take on people as they come.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you explain what a book coach is?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, similar to what you did.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's mostly take people from an idea to a manuscript.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized putting it within a time frame helps people and gives them
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: an accountability instead of keeping it kind of open-ended.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this honestly came from people asking me.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I did not plan to become a book coach.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just started getting DMs on LinkedIn mostly from people who say, hey, I see you.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because I talk about books all the time.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: I publish my books.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, hey, can you help us?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when I realized, okay, wait a minute here.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have the skills.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: I published a book.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I can help people.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I started with the 120-day program and then some people started coming to me
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: with like a half, like unfinished manuscript.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So they did not need the one.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I started like the 60-day program.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the way I do it,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I would tell people, yeah,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: we do work on mindset and what's blocking you,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: but that's maybe the first 10 or 15 minutes of the call.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what I realized is that they really like,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: especially after we pass the outline and Explaining,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know, how the process is, is the live editing bit of it.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that they send me and I usually insist
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: on them sending me pages beforehand so that
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: the book coaching session would not only be about mindset,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: but you're actually doing work.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And help them reach that deadline of at least 50 or 40,000 words in 120 days.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So this is how I kind of explain it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's someone that gives you accountability, explain the process and also edits with you live.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people, they say, Natasha, I got busy, whatever, something happened.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I did not have any pages.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm very flexible.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, let's meet next month, next week.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I tell them, you know what?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do live writing session.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So like I set the alarm for like 15 or 20 minutes.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: I tell them, you work on your stuff.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I will work on my stuff.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm going to look and we're going to edit together.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: This way, at least, especially if they're stuck and they need that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if you pay for that session, you're going to Write and show up.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of the accountability part.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: But so your audience is very niche.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people who traveled and lived outside.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And are you worried about like niching down that much that it would
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: or you're You're okay with,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know, your client pipeline is healthy and you're not worried at all.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So what is, you know, I think right now I'm still in the experimentation stage.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's sort of too early to tell.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: But there are a lot of people out there.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, if you take Peace Corps, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody coming back from Peace Corps, there's thousands of people every year.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: If they,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: however many number of that,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: decide to write their memoir, that is a large number of people.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all within this category.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: You also have, you know, you have third culture kids.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So those are adults now,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: but who traveled a lot and have struggled kind of identifying where their home is
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: because they've lived in so many places.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big number.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would say...
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than being worried if the niche is too narrow,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: right now what I'm focused on is like, how do I find these different networks?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're not necessarily living on Substack.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I need to go to them to sort of let the word out of like,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: hey, I'm fulfilling a need in this area.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to come to me when you're ready to write your story.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed that you go live quite a lot on Substack.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've watched a number of your lives.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Have you tried YouTube or just to branch out?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't done that yet.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I actually just started doing the lives on Substack because I have a number
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: of friends that are publishing books this fall.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, this would be fun to try.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't quite branched out into YouTube,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: but I assume you probably post there as well, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wish I had more time to post because YouTube is great.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, it takes a lot of time.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I do now, like this conversation.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't do much.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I edit maybe the beginning and the end and I just drop it on YouTube.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I bought this AI thumbnail creator, which is great.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: It can create a thumbnail because YouTube, it's all about thumbnails.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: In five minutes and I'm done because I just threw money at the problem.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm always broke.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what you have to do, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: In an iteration stage.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's going to work.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So why did you pick that niche specifically?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because of your background?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's because of my background.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I grew up in a family where my mother was a missionary kid.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so she...
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then as a parent or as adults, they took us abroad for short-term missionary work.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that was at the time of my earliest memories.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so then that set up this longing inside of me to return.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: We were in West Africa as kids.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had this longing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so as an adult, then I went abroad after college to do development work.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up in East Africa and spent almost a decade there doing a variety of And
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: so
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I came back from that knowing that it's a struggle to reintegrate into society
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: and not be able to tell your story and sort of like be in society and seem like
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: a normal person.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: But you had all this other stuff happen in your life that you're still trying
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: to figure out what it means.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm writing about that.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I figured there must be other people like me out there writing about that.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to find them.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, let's make this niche that we can all be in community together and share stories.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's fun.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So do you have a book yourself?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a memoir published yet, but like you, I have a picture book.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's nice.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is it about?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mine is called The Quarantine Kids and it was written during COVID.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: My child was just turning one during COVID and we were living in an apartment building.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so the only...
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, that's nice.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's nice.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And how is it selling now?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Are you promoting it?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not currently promoting it.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I do have copies of it, but I launched it during COVID because that's when it was ready.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I haven't pushed it a lot lately.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a great learning experience.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: You self-published?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you're active on Substack, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to hear about your Substack experience.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And did you find it useful to build the community,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: to get clients, to PR, like maybe build your newsletter?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: How are you using Substack to meet people and also to help your business?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm still getting started with all of that, but I use Substack.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just crossed a barrier of having posted weekly for a year, and that felt big for me.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So early on when I started, I said,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: let's just try doing one article or post,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it's called now, a week and try to keep that up.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so that I was able to do, and that helped...
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: It helped me get in this practice of like, well,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: what can I say about book coaching or how can I write a personal essay
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: that models kind of what you do in a chapter of a memoir?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like a great practice and it's building this material that people can
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: then look up about me and see my perspective of coaching
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: because there's all this archive, right, of my thoughts.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Since then,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've been reaching out to different authors who have books that are coming out
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: and offer to interview or chat with them live.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've done a few cross posts with people or recommendations.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would say you can look at my list.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not one who has suddenly gone viral,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm in for the slow climb and I'm open to experimenting with whatever I see
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: that comes up and I think, oh, I could try that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think book coaches will ever go viral.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because we don't dance on TikTok.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: But, I mean, I don't think we should go viral.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's because our,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: like, I think our audience is very niche, especially you is very niche.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, I'm thinking about you niching down.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And from your experience, I want to ask you something.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And since we're collaborating and people are listening,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: and if anyone,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: thank you for joining us,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: you can help me with this dilemma and tell me if I should do that or not.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So most of my clients, let's say, Maybe more than half have a Middle Eastern background.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: They either were born there,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: parents there,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: like they live in Europe or in the US,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: or they've traveled and like some of them were like in the army and they lived there
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: and they're writing books about there.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, the Middle East is a huge part.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes you brainstorm with AI and Claude keeps telling me,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Natasha,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: you should like brand yourself as with your specialty like I am a like a ghostwriter
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: or a book coach specialized in the Middle East or bilingual or all of that
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: and it's good but at the same time you know I've also been living in the US
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: for 21 years you know I have a lot of connections I you know And shall I box myself
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: into that box or shall I be just open to whoever?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that's kind of catch-22.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have clients who come to me anyway that are not directly in my niche.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think people will find you,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: even if you create a very narrow niche,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: if people have connected with you through, like you post on Notes a lot.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: If people start getting a sense of your voice and your style of your coaching
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: and they connect with that and maybe they've subscribed and they see more,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can see people coming even if they're not directly in that niche.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other part of niching that people
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: in our community do is it doesn't necessarily have to be specific to your identity.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: It can be So you can also...
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: If that identity grouping is feeling too narrow,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: you can pick more of like,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: this is my part of the process I really love,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: or maybe this is the problem that I really like helping people work through.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: It sounded like the overcoming mindset could also be something to explore.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you think I should put that in the bio or no?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Should I say like specialized in Middle Eastern affairs?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Possibly.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you could try it for a while and see how it goes, see how it fits for you.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: But okay.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what are your future plans now in terms of...
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've started thinking about some form of group coaching because,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: as you probably know,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: you can only take on so many one-to-one clients and then your calendar fills up
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: and it's hard to focus.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or even if your calendar is not full,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I can only hold so many stories in my head at one time and give them
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: the attention they deserve.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was thinking about some kind of group plan that also or group process
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: that also gets people who have these similar backgrounds of travel together in
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: a space where they're working on it together.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: one thing about this group is that we're sort of lonely and we don't know
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: who else is out there that has this story.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so getting people in the group also gives this community that they might be lacking in life.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or it might just further motivate of like,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: oh, you know, other people are in this space and wanting to write about it.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's this like?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm kicking around that idea.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have anything official yet, but it's sort of in my brain.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, my problem is I do too much.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's part of like my brain.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of ADHD.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I always joke I am like the ADHD patient zero because I was like ADHD since the 80s.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Prior to diagnosis.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Prior to diagnosis and prior to it being popular on social media.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was even a bit dyslexic.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I had all the signs.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm always like, oh, wow, I need to do this.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: This new trend.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do YouTube.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do Substack Live.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, sometimes it just distracts you.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is, yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been kind of toying,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: not toying, but I'm kind of committed to it, is to create a private community.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's similar to group coaching on Circle, not on Substack.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: But in order to make people trust me and join this private community, I'm going to start...
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now the new trend is a challenge and it's going to be a three-day challenge and
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: the three-day challenge will be done through the space of the community.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then I can say, hey, if you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy being part of this community.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I would start the challenge for like Maybe like, I don't know, $40 that set or something.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I haven't got for three days,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is, you know, a very good deal if you get like three sessions for.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, it's not the challenge.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for the money.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's the funnel.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's the funnel.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, like I look at my calendar, like you and me, like I rescheduled.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: You are going to kill me,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: but I risk it to what I live like so many times because like this client does this
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: and this happens and it's like,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know, as working moms and all of that, it's really hard.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm struggling with.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds fun.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds like a fun idea.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm going to try it and let's see what happens.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm open to not succeeding.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like to use the word failure.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think of it as collecting data.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I collected so much data.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: In my lifetime.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to try this and I'm going to offer it for free for
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: the paid subscribers on Substack.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you can see I've been kind of like growing, thinking about it.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where I'm going.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: This week is crazy, so maybe next week I will announce it and see what happens.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: If it works, if nobody signs up, I will.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: I collected the data.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I will keep marching on, but that's kind of what I'm trying.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And Substack has been amazing for me,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: not in terms of like getting clients per se,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: but building the community, like people joining my webinars.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them actually buy my digital products or my books or all of that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: But my newsletter,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: like the number of subscribers that Because I usually tag them in kit
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: for
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: a different funnel.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever they join, they get into a welcome funnel that takes them.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a lot of work, but.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I like what you said about how you're trying things out and you think of it
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: as data instead of failure.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that's also a thing we teach as coaches, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Through your mindset work with your clients.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: just because you have to throw out a chapter and it's not fitting currently in
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: the manuscript, it's not failure.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to do that mindset shift and just sort of remain open to
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: the experience is important on all sides of this process.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like the older I get, the more I realize that everything in life is mindset.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if what you tell yourself,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: how you look at everything, like you publish a book and nobody bought it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I enjoyed the journey.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should adjust the marketing.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the book was not the right time for the right market,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: and If you tell yourself that it opens so many doors for you in life and you realize
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: that some people think,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: especially what some of my clients would say,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: well, you're either born to be a talented writer or you're not.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I keep telling them, you don't have to be Shakespeare.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the point.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe that talent is overrated.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to put in the reps.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because some people,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: they think they are inherently not good because they were not born with it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I were chatting about other stuff we do and I play the violin.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that kind of made me freeze in the beginning is
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: that I don't have a perfect pitch.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some people like you can play any note and they can delete D sharp.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: You have the perfect pitch,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: but if you don't practice, you're not going to be joining an orchestra.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Your perfect pitch is not going to do anything for you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I might have to work a bit harder than you because I don't have the perfect pitch,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: but I will probably be better than you because I'm practicing more.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: So stay with your perfect pitch.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Have fun with it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's basically what I tell people,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: especially in my book coaching sessions,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: because these are some of the things that make them get stuck,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: especially in the beginning.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have to use very complicated vocabulary to impress people with my knowledge.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, no, no.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, just use your voice.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Write in your voice.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: The same way you text.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just use this.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And people would like,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: I like books with voice instead of flowery language
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: where some author spends two pages describing a curtain.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want that.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want your voice.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: But probably that's me because, again, I am ADHD patient zero.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: We all have different ideal readers, right?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we each write for a specific audience.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a type of audience, yes.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I know you have to go.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: But this was fun really.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: This was fun, yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for anyone who wants to reach you,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: to like work with you on their memoir,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: especially if they're lived outside, how can they reach you?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: What's your Substack, email?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is your time to shine.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: My time, great.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, my Substack is Write like an outsider.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can also find me by looking up my name.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: So Esther Harder, like try harder.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And also my website's the same,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: E-S-T-H-E-R, Harder, H-A-R-D-E-R. And all of my About Me and services are there.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you're welcome to reach out.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for joining me today and talking about,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know, the same work that we do and we can collaborate on.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for everyone who joined us today.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, Kate, Dave, Sheena, Karen, Michelle, Georgia, Marcia, Paul, another Paul.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Merle, thank you everyone.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Please feel free to reach out to Esther or me for all your book coaching
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: or book publishing needs.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are here to help.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for joining me for another episode of the Substack Writer's Salon.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: And until we meet again, bye everyone.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.