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Politix Christmas Mailbag · Politix

• 0:00
  Joe Biden could just like declassify and release a bunch of
• 0:02
  government information
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: about Donald Trump and his shady ties.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he could probably just cancel Elon Musk's government contracts.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just do it.
• 0:10
  I would love to believe that they were thinking about it and to
• 0:13
  see them do it
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: because why the fuck not?
• 0:15
  And also like make it work at it,
• 0:17
  like make it take up some of their time and resources.
• 0:24
  Hello,
• 0:25
  and welcome to this special holiday mailbag episode of the
• 0:28
  Politics Podcast.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Brian Boitler.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this episode will be free to all in the spirit of Christmas,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: but the questions come from paid subscribers.
• 0:38
  So if you want in on the next mailbag episode,
• 0:41
  whenever we do that,
• 0:42
  you know what to do.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess for now, we should just jump in, right?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:52
  The first question comes from Stuart J.
• 0:56
  It's a two-parter,
• 0:59
  and it goes like this.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: A topic I've heard former Weeds host Ezra Klein, I like...
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I like the idea.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ezra Klein?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Ezra Klein, known as the former Weeds host.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: The former Weeds host, that meme, yeah.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Ezra Klein,
• 1:14
  a topic I've heard Ezra Klein discuss is Democrats' poor
• 1:16
  execution and how this is
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: a problem for them electorally.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: People have seen Democrats fail on high-speed rail,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: and don't believe Democrats can deliver on their promises.
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  Do you agree that this is part of what is driving Democrats'
• 1:29
  electoral challenges?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: What can Democrats do to solve the underlying issue of poor execution?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Part two.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are two questions from Stuart Jay, who became greedy, apparently.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's just take them away.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know...
• 1:44
  I was actually talking to Ezra about this last week because I
• 1:47
  have such mixed
• 1:48
  feelings because I agree with him that these problems are very
• 1:51
  bad substantively
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: and that it's important for Democrats to think harder about them.
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  And it's always good when your party loses an election to
• 1:59
  opportunistically –
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like try to urge them to have better ideas.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: I do have to say in like the spirit of intellectual honesty,
• 2:08
  I have been trying to look for quantitative evidence that would
• 2:13
  demonstrate this somehow.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a little bit lacking.
• 2:18
  I feel the same way without having looked at it for anything quantitative.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have reasons though.
• 2:23
  The main reason it's bad that the – like it's genuinely bad
• 2:27
  that the California
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: high-speed rail expansion has been such a fiasco.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: But like the reason that that's bad is that A,
• 2:35
  it would be nice to have a bullet train between Los Angeles and
• 2:39
  the Bay Area.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And B,
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  SPEAKER_02: if you were going to not build such a train,
• 2:43
  you could have used those billions of dollars to do something
• 2:45
  else that would have
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: been nice.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So like it's actually bad.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: I just – I don't really think –
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  SPEAKER_02: that it is super governance relevant,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: except in the minor case that theoretically,
• 3:00
  the kind of presidential nominee you would like is a governor
• 3:03
  of some state who had
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  SPEAKER_02: some signature accomplishment that people say something nice about.
• 3:08
  But that can be very low key,
• 3:10
  just like Josh Stein rebuilt that one highway.
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  SPEAKER_02: No.
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  SPEAKER_02: That's good enough.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Josh Shapiro.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Josh Shapiro.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: fuck, anti-Semitic on Christmas, which is also Hanukkah.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Josh Stein is about to be the powerless governor.
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  SPEAKER_02: He's never done anything.
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  SPEAKER_02: Josh Shapiro, too many Joshes.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, I enjoy the spirit of this take, but I fade its accuracy.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: so,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I also just kind of think,
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  SPEAKER_01: no offense to Stuart J or anything like that,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: the high-speed rail example is...
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  not his like the strongest possible example you could use if
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  you were trying to
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  SPEAKER_01: draw at this point,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the way cities responded to the crime spike would be a,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe a better one or,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like lacks,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: like lifestyle crime response in,
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  SPEAKER_01: in cities like Washington even,
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  that definitely do frustrate people who are down the line
• 4:02
  Democratic voters.
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  And I think what made this take appealing to people who want to
• 4:07
  see problems like
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: that addressed is that Kamala Harris lost ground everywhere,
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  SPEAKER_01: including in places like Manhattan and,
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: San Francisco, everywhere though, right?
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  And so it wasn't just some like localized liberal governance
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  failures that caused
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  SPEAKER_01: the Democratic Party to shrink from 2020 to 2024.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was other things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think just we can like –
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  SPEAKER_01: Doing good policy is right morally.
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  And I think at the extremes probably does like generate lasting
• 4:46
  either political
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: benefit or political detriment.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Sam Brownback really did fuck up Kansas really badly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think it has probably like helped Democrats there,
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  SPEAKER_01: even though it's still a very red state,
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  SPEAKER_01: but like,
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  It is not the case that Republicans are growing because where
• 5:02
  they run things,
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  SPEAKER_01: things are going excellent.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can find happy stories about housing in Texas.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are exceptions,
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  SPEAKER_01: but generally speaking,
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  SPEAKER_01: when you go to a place that is run by entirely Republican politicians,
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  SPEAKER_01: the quality of services is lower,
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  SPEAKER_01: the responsiveness to citizens is lower,
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  SPEAKER_01: the idea that
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Politics should be this common good thing is lower.
• 5:29
  And it doesn't like create a groundswell or it doesn't create
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  like a big backlash
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  SPEAKER_01: that allows Democrats to like lastingly build power in those places.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I just don't think mechanistically it's how things really work.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I guess I was going to say the exception to this.
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  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is not that different from what you said,
• 5:48
  but just the fact that the population growth in Texas and
• 5:52
  Florida is so high is
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: like mechanically empowers Republicans over the longer term, right?
• 6:00
  Like the electoral college map is going to shift after the next
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  reapportionment in
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  a way that is unfavorable to Democrats because New York and
• 6:10
  California are going to
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  SPEAKER_02: lose electoral votes and Texas and California are going to gain them.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, that's like a – you know, it's an –
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  SPEAKER_02: It's better to try to have the states you govern be growing.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I don't think this explains voting behavior.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I used to be tickled by this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Would you rather be rich and happy or poor and miserable?
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  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, rich and happy.
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  SPEAKER_01: You should want to govern well,
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  and you should want to retire with a record of accomplishment
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  if you're a governor
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  SPEAKER_01: or president or whatever.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't necessarily mean anything about your legacy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: The second part of Stuart J's question is addressed more squarely at you,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I also have thoughts on it.
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  SPEAKER_01: He says,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've heard you,
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  SPEAKER_01: Matt,
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  SPEAKER_01: talk about Democrats persecuting heretics,
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  which has led them to become a small tent party as a reason for
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  the election loss.
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  SPEAKER_01: Arguably,
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  SPEAKER_01: no one has purged more heretics than Donald Trump,
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  who would throw his own party members under the bus for saying
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  mundane things like
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  SPEAKER_01: the 2020 election was not stolen.
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  How come Donald Trump can aggressively police the speech of
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  this party – of his
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  party and cast out heretics while still building a large
• 7:18
  electoral coalition?
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  Yeah,
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  I mean I think you see a cost to that kind of behavior on
• 7:24
  Trump's part.
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  I mean especially when it's gotten really – it hurt them really
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  badly in the 2022
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  SPEAKER_02: Senate races that he was trying to put forward –
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  SPEAKER_02: These election denier type people.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was a bad moment, I think, for J.D.
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  SPEAKER_02: Vance in the course of a generally good debate when he couldn't answer
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  SPEAKER_02: straightforward questions about who won the election.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's like the thing that frustrates me.
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  SPEAKER_02: anti-Trump liberals,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think,
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  is that they would like it to be the case that everybody sees
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  Trump's personality
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  SPEAKER_02: cult stuff as repellent.
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  SPEAKER_02: But we see,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think,
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  SPEAKER_02: pretty clearly that especially the people who are less into politics,
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  SPEAKER_02: right?
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  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_02: the people who don't consume large amounts of political news,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: and even the kind of media personalities who are not that into politics,
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  SPEAKER_02: but who have kind of like gotten into Trump.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or just like kind of OK with being like, sure, whatever.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't like does Elon Musk say that the 2020 election was stolen?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not totally sure.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: He says all kinds of things.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: He's really fired up about the stuff that he's fired up about.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Joe Rogan, all these other manosphere influencers.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know even 100 percent what it is they think about this.
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  But Trump is so dogmatic on this point of personal loyalty to
• 8:47
  Donald Trump and then
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  SPEAKER_02: so lax on everything else,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: right?
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  So like Marco Rubio,
• 8:54
  Tulsi Gabbard,
• 8:56
  we're going to talk later about like –
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Trump taking Trump literally versus seriously and stuff like that.
• 9:01
  But it's like he has a genuinely big tent of people actively
• 9:07
  supporting him who
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: have wildly divergent ideas about many of the major issues of the day.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: including like people who absolutely want to ban abortion.
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  I think like abortion is murder and there's a Holocaust of the
• 9:20
  unborn playing out,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: but also people who like pro-choice people are welcome in his coalition.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're welcome in his tent.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: What he asks is loyalty to him,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: slavish loyalty to him,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: that he be allowed to get away with corruption,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: that he be allowed to get away with abuses of power,
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: that he be praised as a personality.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: I find it very cringe.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: I would like
• 9:44
  rather be able to have a political – I personally would rather
• 9:50
  be able to have a
• 9:50
  political movement where I can say that Nancy Pelosi is one of
• 9:54
  the great political
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: –
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  SPEAKER_02: icons of my lifetime,
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  but also that she has made multiple serious errors and that
• 10:04
  she's really wrong
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: about this AOC thing.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't get killed for that.
• 10:09
  But lots of people are just more comfortable with the way that
• 10:16
  what you need to be
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  SPEAKER_02: a member of the pro-Trump movement in good standing is to be pro-Trump.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually don't disagree with any of that.
• 10:24
  I would add a couple things and I might pick a little fight for
• 10:28
  no reason,
• 10:29
  just gratuitously.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think you see that when Trump imitators try to...
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: police the party or police people under them the way Trump does,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: but they lack his cultural cachet or his celebrity.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: They do very badly, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like Trump is like no joke.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: He has maxed out at 49% of the vote,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: which is like enough to win,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: but it's not a majority,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so in some sense,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: you're right,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Matt,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: that his inner circle is ideologically heterodox,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't actually –
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: necessarily think that that tells us much.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a place where lots of misfits can hang out together,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: but there just aren't that many misfits in society.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I also think that he over-indexes on that.
• 11:22
  Loyalty is so important to him that anybody with any other idea
• 11:26
  is welcome in the
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: party means that they're not going to be able to govern together.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's already happening.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Elon Musk
• 11:34
  causing the stampede away from the government funding bill
• 11:37
  because it was going to
• 11:38
  fund stuff or maybe it was going to help Mark Cuban's pet cause
• 11:45
  of penalizing
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: pharmacy benefit managers.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know what
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: triggered it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But like, that's not Trump stuff.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Trump,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think prior to Elon Musk getting engaged in,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: involved in this government funding fight was happy to just get through
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: inauguration and without tons and tons of drama.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And now there's tons and tons of drama and it's not over anything Trumpy.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's over this,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: this like Musk driven tea party style complaint about the size of the,
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: of the appropriations bill.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just doesn't,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't work.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think we're going to get into this with subsequent questions.
• 12:26
  I actually think that that's a useful way to glimpse into the
• 12:32
  future of what the
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Trump presidency will look like.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that I support
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: efforts to make the progressive coalition less like,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: witch hunty and like cast out the heretics.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that even like,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: even if it's just a marginal effect being seen as scoldy and,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: and whatever is like not a great way to get bigger.
• 12:58
  Um,
• 12:59
  when like the goal,
• 13:00
  like Trump's at 49%,
• 13:01
  but if you're at 47,
• 13:02
  you're,
• 13:03
  you're going to lose.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like, I have, um,
• 13:10
  You have this idea you return to a lot that the people who
• 13:14
  engage in this kind of conduct,
• 13:16
  whether they're Democratic Party staffers or they work in the
• 13:19
  groups or whatever,
• 13:20
  is to put a Post-it note at their desk that says that the
• 13:23
  median voter is 55 years
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: old without a college degree and white,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is a worthy heuristic.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know there are people who think it's a pointless observation.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't...
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: like really think it's the main drive.
• 13:41
  I don't think that Democrats in Washington or progressives who
• 13:45
  live in big cities
• 13:46
  talk a certain way or treat other involved liberals and
• 13:52
  progressives a certain way.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then that filters into the mind of this hypothetical median voter.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think like the, the, a better way.
• 14:03
  way to understand these woes is to be like,
• 14:07
  is to,
• 14:07
  is to write a different post-it note.
• 14:09
  And it would say like the marginal voter is somebody who never
• 14:13
  watches the news and
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: never reads the newspaper,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: but they get their information from somewhere.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And increasingly that somewhere is red pilled.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's like the biggest part of the story.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like, if,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: so I mean,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I would say like,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like a lot of times,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'll say something and then like your reply is like,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: ah,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: but like these things are mediogenic,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: which is true,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 14:48
  But that's also why,
• 14:49
  to me,
• 14:51
  that's like actually the significance of the post-it note,
• 14:55
  right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can...
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: You can say to yourself,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: OK,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 15:01
  I'm going to sort of pretend to be a certain way or I'm going
• 15:04
  to portray myself as
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: a certain way,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm Kamala Harris.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really focused on working people.
• 15:12
  I care a lot about Social Security and Medicare,
• 15:15
  et cetera,
• 15:15
  et cetera,
• 15:15
  et cetera.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: But information or like takes on like what things are all about,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: like spreads through different circles of media,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 15:27
  And so like how you present yourself in the highest information environments,
• 15:33
  right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or just like in private.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: like, matters.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was mostly picking a gratuitous fight.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, so this will be relevant, actually, to the next thing.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: So if you see,
• 15:45
  any tips on predicting what Trump will actually do and giving
• 15:47
  coverage that takes
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: the issue seriously?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Before the election,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: coverage was all about assuming he'll do exactly what he says,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: dictator for a day,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: across the board tariffs,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: concentration camps for deportation,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 15:57
  Now the narrative is all about his tough talk negotiating tactic,
• 16:00
  how it's going to take
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: years to do anything.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically business as usual,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: aside from some grifters in the oval,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: and he definitely doesn't care enough to start deportations,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Since no new information came to light to drive the narrative shift,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm now extremely skeptical and distrusting of such punditry.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: How do you two make predictions needed to plan your lives?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: don't pay off loans if you're expecting hyperinflation,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: or buy things early if you're expecting massive tariffs.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 16:27
  I have never made any predictions about this because I don't
• 16:29
  know because Trump is
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: a liar and he's mercurial and he's whimsical.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's just very hard to know.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also – I don't know why I don't do this.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: In theory,
• 16:45
  I have some ideas about what is likely to happen or what I
• 16:49
  worry about happening
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: that would imply that I should hedge retirement accounts.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: investments in certain ways.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't done any of that, and I'm not going to.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'll probably kick myself for not doing it.
• 17:03
  I don't agree that no new information came to light to change
• 17:09
  the conventional
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: wisdom about this.
• 17:12
  We're living through something happening right now that is
• 17:15
  making me reassess what
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I thought was more likely.
• 17:18
  I was worried that Trump was going to come in guns blazing and
• 17:20
  have a much more disciplined
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: operation,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: and so be able to make more headway,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: and that the likely scenario was that that would generate backlash,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: but then there would be crackdowns on the backlash,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: and then that would leave us in a really like a tinderbox,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: a bad situation.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: As we were just talking about, I think
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: there,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: it's more likely that like,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: he's going to try to,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: try to come in with a,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: like a blaze of,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: of fascism,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: but he's not,
• 17:53
  it's not going to be well-planned and it's going to be
• 17:55
  orchestrated by people who
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: have different ideas about what the objective to all this is.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to make them make a lot of mistakes.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: and that's what I think is essentially happening with the,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: with the government funding fight.
• 18:07
  Like by the time you listen to it,
• 18:09
  maybe we'll be in a government shutdown.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was not on anyone's bingo card.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is not part of any grand plan.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And to me,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: that just says the fears,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: which I think were justifiable back in September or whatever,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: not to flush them down the toilet or anything,
• 18:30
  but that we're seeing that maybe he and the people around him
• 18:34
  learned less from
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Term 1 than we suspected they did.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just say –
• 18:43
  I hear what Nathan is saying about being distrustful of the way,
• 18:47
  like,
• 18:47
  these narratives flip.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I am a little distrustful of people who complain about the narrative,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: quote unquote,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: because you need to,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: like...
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Be rigorous.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: is there a specific person who said before the election,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: you can take to the bank,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Trump's going to do exactly what he says.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And now that same person is saying blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 19:16
  Or is it literally like the narrative in the sense of like the
• 19:19
  information you are consuming?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: has changed.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because like one reason that it may have changed is that once Trump wins,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: people are more interested in people who are well sourced in Trump world.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And like those are different people.
• 19:37
  Like Paul Krugman is not somebody who I read for his takes on
• 19:41
  what Donald Trump's
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: advisors are telling him.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like I read Paul Krugman for his economic analysis.
• 19:49
  And what I think he was saying before the election was let's
• 19:53
  take Trump at his word
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: and explore what the implications of that are.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And like now I'm reading more Maggie Haberman,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: who is like,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: let me tell you what I'm hearing from the Trumposphere.
• 20:05
  And like those are different things because the people in the
• 20:08
  Trumposphere – an
• 20:09
  interesting quality about Donald Trump is that Trump allies
• 20:15
  will frequently tell
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: you that he's lying,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like as a case for Trump.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: which is unusual, right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: You almost never heard somebody say as part of a pitch for Joe Biden,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: this guy's totally full of shit.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: It makes Trump unusual to cover,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: not because he's the only person who's ever lied,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: but he is,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 20:38
  unique in politics in that his fans will tell you
• 20:43
  enthusiastically what a huge liar
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: he is and how great that is.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that new information has actually come to light around this.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think that before the election,
• 20:54
  it was clear that Elon Musk was pulling strings to try to get
• 20:59
  Donald Trump elected president.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea that Musk would emerge as a key Trump policy advisor,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think was not obviously there during the campaign.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that...
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Every post-election photo has been Trump and Musk,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: not Trump and Stephen Miller or Trump and Susan Wiles.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or J.D.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Vance.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: But,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: like Susan Wiles,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: his campaign manager and his designated chief of staff,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: the vice president,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like Stephen Miller, his longest standing policy aide.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think any of those people are like gone.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But-
• 21:37
  Where they have been this December has been a much more
• 21:40
  marginal role relative to
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: what I would have predicted in October.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because – and just like Musk has like – he's got a lot to do.
• 21:51
  But he is spending his time in Mar-a-Lago shadow presidenting
• 21:56
  in a way that I think
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: was like – and sorry,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: to add to this,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: his priorities seem much more like –
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: straight out of Paul Ryan 2012 than like the classic Trump message.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: So things have been shifting.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Kevin P. Oh, no, no.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're doing this the other way.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we are.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that your point about Krugman versus Haberman is well taken,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: and I would just add that like as a –
• 22:28
  People who consume media should try to be attuned to what
• 22:33
  people who are making the
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: media are saying and writing,
• 22:36
  but the people doing the saying and writing should be careful
• 22:39
  to be clear.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what we're saying.
• 22:41
  Just like Trump says he's going to pardon the January Sixers,
• 22:44
  that's in his power to do.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: We should assume he'll do it.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: The implications would be this and not, I predict it's going to happen.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Kevin P writes, Brian, I've been following your work since Rubicon...
• 22:57
  Kevin P writes,
• 22:58
  Brian,
• 22:58
  I've been following your work since the Rubicon podcast.
• 23:01
  My question is how your relationship with crooked media is now
• 23:04
  that you started
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: your own podcast.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't meant to be in any negative way, but just genuine curiosity.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you still keep in touch with any of the PSA bros?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: What made you decide to leave?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Matthew, what are your opinions on PSA as a whole?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's Pod Save America.
• 23:21
  Do you find that you typically agree with their views or find
• 23:24
  that you're at odds
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: more often than not?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Also, any chance of having them on as a guest or vice versa?
• 23:32
  You know,
• 23:33
  I mean,
• 23:33
  you can't say who will or won't be on guests on different things.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I like –
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: The spirit of what they're doing at Kroger Media,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: by sort of high level,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: it's not even a criticism of them,
• 23:49
  but why I wish things were different is that there's an idea of
• 23:54
  a like mainstream
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Democrat podcast network,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think is a good idea.
• 24:00
  And there's also an idea of like some of Barack Obama's top
• 24:05
  political operatives
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: tell you their perspective on the world as political operatives.
• 24:11
  And I think that there's a little bit of a mismatch between
• 24:15
  those two concepts,
• 24:17
  right?
• 24:17
  Because part of the like crooked media concept as an abstract
• 24:21
  is to be kind of like
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: really friendly,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: So like everybody who's important in Democratic Party politics,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: they are friendly too,
• 24:29
  which I think is kind of reasonable relative to like the
• 24:32
  corporate mission of
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: crooked media.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know what Jon Favreau,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Barack Obama's speechwriter,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: thinks about what politicians should be saying,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 24:43
  Like you can't do the work that they did when they were
• 24:46
  practitioners without being
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: like quite opinionated about like which candidates are the good ones,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: which messages are the good ones,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: how should you think about politics without being,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: like me,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm a jerk about all this stuff.
• 24:58
  Like I have like strong opinions,
• 24:59
  say mean things about people,
• 25:01
  et cetera,
• 25:01
  et cetera.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I want to hear that version of them.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: I want a different podcast network,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: which is run by friendly people,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: that then has the hosts of Pod Save America on,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: who they then say meaner things as guests.
• 25:18
  Because whether you agree with them or not,
• 25:20
  I think it would be more informative to the public.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: to get the hardest edged version of those guys' takes.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: To be like,
• 25:28
  my take as a former Obama guy is that this thing that we did
• 25:34
  was wrong and it's
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: good that post-Obama Democrats changed.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: But this other thing that we did was right.
• 25:40
  We had really good reasons for it and people have fucked up by
• 25:43
  changing direction.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know what their real takes on all that stuff is.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not exactly what they're doing, not because they're like,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: bad people or lying or whatever,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: but because it's like – Crooked Media has like a friendly big tent vibe,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: which is a good vibe to cultivate.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like – it's the same as like –
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know what they really think,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: and it's not really what the show tells you.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: a little more of the candor that you're describing is,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: seeped through since the election.
• 26:18
  Yes,
• 26:18
  I mean,
• 26:19
  after you lose,
• 26:20
  it's always easier to convener to the guys who just lost,
• 26:24
  right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Which I sympathize with.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: now that it's over,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: at least,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: they're like,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: it was wrong of Nancy Pelosi to intervene against AOC,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: but it's,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's too late.
• 26:34
  I am mostly going to politely demure and decline to answer the
• 26:39
  parts of the
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: question that were aimed directly at me.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say two things.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: One is I would happily be a guest.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have been a guest on Crooked Media Podcast since I left,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: and I'd happily be a guest on PSA in the future.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd be welcome here.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had internal,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: but also very public,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: so I don't mind talking about it,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: disagreements about
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: like democratic party and progressive strategy.
• 27:08
  And also like what purpose crooked media should serve in,
• 27:13
  in the,
• 27:15
  like the media sphere.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: in the embryonic phase of crooked media,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: there was a lot of talk about like,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: it could,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: it could be a Fox news of the liberal left.
• 27:28
  But like with,
• 27:28
  you know,
• 27:28
  without the like incitement and the lying,
• 27:30
  just like a,
• 27:31
  a tool to like,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: mobilize people and also discipline the party.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that second thing was a bit missing.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you watch Fox News,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: other than Donald Trump,
• 27:43
  they bring the hammer down on Republican politicians when they
• 27:48
  think that they're
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: doing something suboptimal strategically.
• 27:52
  And I thought that the clout that those guys have within the
• 27:57
  party would be
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: valuably used toward trying to
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: get the party to be,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit more antagonistic to Republicans,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: essentially,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: and more confrontational to them.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that I think that they're,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 28:09
  unwilling to do that kind of thing on principle or because
• 28:12
  they're trying to,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: put forth that,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: inclusiveness and niceness vibe,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: although that's probably part of it.
• 28:20
  It's also that,
• 28:21
  like,
• 28:21
  they just disagree with me about how the party should operate.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that they mostly thought that the approach –
• 28:29
  Democrats took from 2017 through 2024 was right until it kind
• 28:35
  of fell apart.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm curious how it changes,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: but at the end of the day,
• 28:40
  I didn't persuade because there was just a basic disagreement
• 28:44
  there that we never –
• 28:46
  really resolved um okay okay next one um okay how available are
• 28:52
  farmers as a
• 28:53
  potential block of the democratic party seems like farmers
• 28:55
  would be a valuable
• 28:56
  block to get because of how overrepresented rural america is in
• 28:58
  congress also like
• 28:59
  maybe farmers have more transactional relationship politics um
• 29:02
  trump's trade policy
• 29:03
  seems to have been materially bad for them which might be an
• 29:06
  opportunity uh you
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: have any thoughts on this
• 29:08
  I don't know why I got this question because I kind of know
• 29:11
  jack shit about farm
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: policy and farming politics.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in theory, yes.
• 29:21
  We've talked on this show about how if Trump does what he says
• 29:25
  he's going to do,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be really bad for Iowa farmers and
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: like that could be good for Democrats in Iowa.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish I thought it was likely to play out that way.
• 29:39
  Donald Trump has already been bad for farmers,
• 29:42
  as far as I understand things.
• 29:43
  And he's currently being extremely bad to the farmers who just
• 29:48
  helped get him elected.
• 29:50
  Like if the government shuts down,
• 29:52
  the farm bill is not going to be extended.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: might not be extended until after he's inaugurated.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's going to be disruptive for them.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so obviously, drive a wedge where you can.
• 30:07
  I hope Democrats exploit what Trump has done to farmers and
• 30:11
  will do to farmers for
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: political gain.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I assume that as with so many different voting blocs,
• 30:20
  People are less and less voting their material interests and
• 30:23
  more and more voting
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: their cultural or identitarian interests,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: and farmers are not going to get less white,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: less culturally conservative anytime soon,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: and so the payoff is probably going to be pretty marginal.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's my intuition.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean this is sort of a complex issue.
• 30:42
  I think it's interesting to look at how Republicans navigate
• 30:46
  the kind of material
• 30:47
  interests of agriculture because I do think it – so part of
• 30:53
  this CR drama,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: is that Republicans,
• 30:59
  once it became clear they weren't going to get appropriations
• 31:02
  done in time,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: started looking to negotiate a continuing resolution.
• 31:06
  Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then they said at the behest of North Carolina Republicans,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: we've got to put some disaster aid in here.
• 31:14
  And then farm state Republicans wanted to put some kind of like
• 31:19
  ag bailout in there
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: that I didn't 100% understand.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so Democrats said to that,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: fine,
• 31:28
  but you got to give us some stuff because you can't just put
• 31:32
  extra spending in for
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: your constituencies and then expect us to vote for it.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's how this bill got a little bit Christmas treeed.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then that's what Musk blew up.
• 31:45
  But then when Republicans came back to like put Humpty Dumpty
• 31:47
  back together again,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: it was CR plus disaster aid plus the farm bailout.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And they just took out all the concessions that were made to Democrats,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: which is like that's not on the level,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so in some sense,
• 32:02
  what Trump and Musk have done here has been bad for farmers
• 32:06
  because it's taken away
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: this bailout money that they could have gotten,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: that Democrats were willing to give them.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: But from a standpoint of pure position taking,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Republicans keep saying spending is out of control,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: small government,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: free markets,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: and also a random bailout for farmers,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: The turn that it would take,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: because I think the material and the symbolic are intertwined,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: For somebody to not only do something that is bad for farmers,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: but to say that that is good,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think is what it would take to change it, right?
• 32:46
  To be like,
• 32:47
  this trade war is going to hurt American farmers and that's
• 32:52
  fine because we can't be
• 32:56
  destroying our manufacturing base in order to build up natural resource,
• 33:01
  whatever it is.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's not how Trump talks, right?
• 33:04
  But it's like position taking against rural America to say that
• 33:10
  like this is an
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: example of the kind of wasteful spending that Doge is going to eliminate.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think would have a big impact because people care about,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 33:22
  people care about money to an extent and people care a lot
• 33:25
  about like values and
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: ideas and like the ether.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so like everyone who's like sucking on the government teat,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: like not only wants to keep getting their money,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: they want to like hear that it's right and correct and
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: that they should be getting that money.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they do still hear that from Republicans,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: even as Republicans and they're thrashing around some sort of way,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: which is different from like in the 90s,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: like Newt Gingrich stood up and was like,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: we're wasting too much money on fucking farm subsidies.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that was great for Tom Harkin, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the Vilsack and the Plains Democrats of old who could be like,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: you're wrong,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Mr.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Meany Republicans,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm fighting for farmers.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but those days are not with us.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: The, uh, like you guys remember Tom Harkin?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: What a real one.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Byron Dorgan.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: We used to have a country.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I used to talk to those guys all the time.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 34:24
  like the nature of Trump's populism is like a big part of it is
• 34:27
  just like,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love our farmers.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love our cops.
• 34:29
  And like whatever policy he does that hurts them just kind of
• 34:33
  gets swept under the
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: rug and is done very quietly.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: In any case,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Benji asks,
• 34:41
  how much is moderate signaling for Democrats about policy
• 34:44
  positions versus visibly,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: quote unquote,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: punching left?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Especially on cultural issues,
• 34:49
  is it more important to have the right position or visibly
• 34:53
  argue with the right people?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think punching left is overrated.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is actually like sucker moderation.
• 35:02
  When I talk to people on the Hill who think they agree with me
• 35:05
  about stuff,
• 35:06
  this winds up being like the number one thing that we end up
• 35:10
  disagreeing with.
• 35:11
  They always want it to be the case that Iglesias thought is I
• 35:15
  should take some
• 35:16
  marginal left position that Democrats have already rejected and
• 35:20
  talk more about how
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: we're rejecting it.
• 35:23
  But I actually think that's like lame,
• 35:25
  like leave the poor defund police people alone.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was stupid.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: But like they're they're fucking dead, man.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like leave them alone.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like the the pain point is to just like actually say things.
• 35:42
  that are reasonable and that people disagree with and to not be
• 35:46
  worried that the
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: left will punch at you.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And like,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: it's fine to punch back,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: probably like,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think like the best concrete example is,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: assault weapons ban.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:02
  everybody i know almost has like incredibly strong feelings
• 36:06
  about this and just
• 36:07
  gets like really upset every time there's like a mass shooting
• 36:11
  somewhere and like
• 36:12
  really wants to go on twitter and be like gotta ban us all
• 36:15
  weapons we gotta ban us
• 36:15
  all weapons i think we just see time and again that like this
• 36:19
  issue not everywhere
• 36:20
  in america but particularly in rural areas right where you want
• 36:23
  to get these
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: farmers and stuff like that like it's a it's a loser
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you need some Democrats.
• 36:30
  You don't need to like,
• 36:31
  quote unquote,
• 36:32
  punch left at the assault weapons banning people.
• 36:35
  But like you need to like say that you don't agree with them
• 36:39
  and that there's like
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: a solid actually like policy argument against this,
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: that it's very expressive,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: emotive politics,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: but has very little to do with homicide incidents in the United States,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is, is that if you say that,
• 36:54
  While there's sporadic news attention to these things,
• 36:57
  left-wing people will get mad at you.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: But, like, that's okay.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: You just – you have to learn to live with it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: you don't need to attack them,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: but you need to,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 37:07
  do your politics and do your position-taking and say to the
• 37:12
  voters who you are
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: trying to – again,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: lots of people aren't trying to court.
• 37:17
  centrist rural voters but like if that is what you're doing
• 37:21
  like that's what you
• 37:22
  have to do is just like talk to the people who you are trying
• 37:26
  to get to vote for
• 37:27
  you and agree with them about some stuff and then pitch them on
• 37:31
  on some of your
• 37:31
  other things punching left whatever i i think that's like fine
• 37:35
  for me like i'm just
• 37:36
  on twitter i'm not trying to get anybody to vote for me i'm
• 37:38
  just trying to stir
• 37:40
  some shit up and create space for other people but i think it
• 37:43
  would be weird for
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: like um uh
• 37:47
  I don't know,
• 37:48
  just like politicians to be mixing it up in that kind of random way.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: like Nancy Pelosi will like talk about the green dream or whatever,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: basically just like chiding progressives in her caucus just to be like,
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am not like the people in my own party.
• 38:03
  And like,
• 38:04
  I agree with you that punching left is weak,
• 38:08
  but for another reason,
• 38:10
  which is
• 38:12
  If you're trying to signal how pure you are of defund the
• 38:16
  police or the Green New
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Deal by punching left against those ideas,
• 38:20
  you have successfully centered an increment of public discourse
• 38:24
  around issues that
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: are unfavorable to you.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations, you've owned yourself.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's really stupid.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 38:32
  I think that that is a bad way to convey moderation if
• 38:35
  conveying moderation is the goal.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like the assault weapons ban example so much.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't particularly have strong feelings about what,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: if anything,
• 38:45
  Democrats should do about gun control given the amount of gun
• 38:49
  violence in the
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: United States.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like the idea of surrendering.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you make progress on an increment,
• 38:58
  proving that the gun lobby and various gun enthusiasts in
• 39:03
  America don't have a
• 39:05
  totally iron grip on the future of the country in this regard
• 39:09
  is important.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much political capital Democrats should spend on it,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't like the notion that they should just be like,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: all right,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: I guess we lost this fight.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let me pitch you a better example, actually.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, defund police, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's done.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: Those people lost.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Don't fucking talk about it.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Don't elevate that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to convey more moderation on the crime issue,
• 39:32
  this is where I think like the average Democrat could
• 39:34
  dramatically improve their performance.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: Take your speech where like a little chicken shit,
• 39:40
  you've written public safety because you decided like seven
• 39:44
  years ago that it's
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: racist to talk about crime.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you're going to say public safety.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing air quotes because this phrase is dumb.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And just like fucking cross it out and say crime.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Say I'm concerned about crime.
• 39:57
  I want to arrest criminals and I want to put them in – just be
• 40:01
  more moderate.
• 40:03
  It leads into the point I was about to make before you rudely
• 40:05
  interrupted me,
• 40:06
  which is I think the main thing Democrats should think about
• 40:09
  when they're trying to
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: convey moderation or really to convey anything is to think about how –
• 40:18
  how to express something in a way that can break through past
• 40:23
  the immediate
• 40:24
  audience of other members of Congress and people in the media
• 40:28
  to the kinds of
• 40:30
  voters we talked about when I was like blathering on about
• 40:34
  post-it notes and the
• 40:35
  marginal voter and where they get their information is like
• 40:38
  using terms like public safety,
• 40:41
  like using terms like the kitchen table issues of America's
• 40:44
  families or whatever is
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: such sad,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: lame boilerplate that like nobody hears it.
• 40:50
  And most of the people who do hear it,
• 40:52
  like just stop listening because it's,
• 40:54
  it's lame.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: It has no emotional content.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Crime has emotional content.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: The word crime has emotional content.
• 41:00
  And there are ways to talk about Donald Trump and Elon Musk
• 41:03
  blowing up the CR that
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: have real emotional content beyond like,
• 41:08
  what about America's families during the holidays and the deal
• 41:11
  that they struck and
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: they're going back?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: They should really,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: really think if they were trying to get something across,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: how to get it across and not just...
• 41:26
  articulate it in a way that like on the text of it is quote
• 41:31
  unquote moderate or whatever.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's my view on just how to convey.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Literally put your text into GPT-4 or Claude.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: Ask it to rewrite it at a sixth grade reading level.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or just ask it to rewrite it the way like a Republican would say it.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is it my turn to read a question?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's yours.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's, yes, it's yours.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: Three and a half years ago,
• 42:02
  several people argued for eliminating or reforming the
• 42:04
  filibuster to make Congress
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: more productive.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Do those arguments still hold up today?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 42:09
  All the pro-democracy arguments,
• 42:12
  they really took root when Matt and I were young bucks.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think both of us were...
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: really early adopters of this idea that the filibuster is bad,
• 42:22
  but it's like one institution in American politics that is
• 42:27
  anti-democratic and we
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: should like make all of the anti-democratic institutions more democratic.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think the,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: I am assuming that the spirit of the,
• 42:38
  the question is asked in the spirit of Republicans coming back
• 42:40
  to power with the
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: trifecta and,
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: and would it be good if they like,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: didn't have the filibuster to contend with now.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: And this gets back to something that we discussed with Ben Wickler.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about it in other contexts too,
• 42:58
  is that I don't think Democrats should play themselves by
• 43:03
  refusing to eliminate the
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: filibuster when they have power,
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: but then giving Republicans the votes
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: to eliminate the filibuster now that they're coming to power.
• 43:11
  But I don't think that they should light their hair on fire if
• 43:14
  Republicans decide
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to eliminate the filibuster now.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Say, all right, good.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's long past time that that goes into the dustbin.
• 43:25
  And now it's going to be entirely clear what the Republican
• 43:28
  Party does and doesn't
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: stand for because we can't filibuster your bad ideas.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so go ahead, govern the country.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's my view on the filibuster when Republicans are in control.
• 43:41
  That's my view on gerrymandering insofar as Republicans refuse
• 43:45
  to adopt a national
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: nonpartisan gerrymandering rule.
• 43:49
  It's my view on super PACs,
• 43:52
  and I assume it's your view on that stuff too.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: way this still leaves things a little bit imbalanced is that most of what
• 44:02
  Republicans want to do public policy-wise is exempt from the
• 44:06
  filibuster anyway,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: in some part or in total.
• 44:10
  You can do tax cuts for 10 years through the budget
• 44:13
  reconciliation process,
• 44:14
  no filibuster.
• 44:15
  you can confirm judges now because of previous filibuster rule
• 44:18
  changes without a filibuster.
• 44:21
  And then those judges can do whatever right wing policy you
• 44:25
  can't enact in Congress.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the stuff Democrats tend to want to do is still, uh,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of it, but much of it is still subject to filibuster.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: So even in the world we're living in,
• 44:39
  the filibuster is like just a bigger millstone around the
• 44:44
  Democrats' neck than it
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: is around the Republicans' neck.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: We'll just keep – Move on.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Kirsten R.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: says,
• 44:56
  I love the pod for some real talk and appreciate you guys for
• 45:00
  your candor and bits
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: of dry humor.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the whole question.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm kidding.
• 45:06
  I've also got questions about what Joe Biden can do in the last
• 45:09
  month of his
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: presidency to give some of us hope.
• 45:12
  Since SCOTUS seems to have expanded the power of a president
• 45:15
  while he's president,
• 45:17
  can Biden take advantage of that to be bolder than before in
• 45:21
  trying some crazy
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: last-minute things?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not advocating for having SEAL Team 6 take anyone out, but...
• 45:27
  Is there stuff that would have previously been out of bounds
• 45:29
  that Biden can do
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: without fear of repercussions now to help dreamers,
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: to protect abortion doctors,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: to invest in climate research,
• 45:36
  to protect the free speech of members of the media who might
• 45:39
  call out corrupt
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: political behavior,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera?
• 45:42
  Please tell me there's a cabal of super smart people working on
• 45:44
  awesome ideas,
• 45:45
  please.
• 45:46
  I do not think that there is a cabal of super smart people
• 45:49
  working on awesome ideas.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: I also don't think it's not like they're not doing anything.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like the morning before we were called,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: we recorded,
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: they announced the completion of a new round of student debt forgiveness.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: And they have somebody wrote a book.
• 46:06
  Bidenomics essay that Joe Biden signed that appeared in the
• 46:10
  American Prospect.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: They are doing various things.
• 46:13
  I think probably the closest to what you're talking about is
• 46:18
  they officially raised
• 46:21
  America's climate targets under the Paris Agreement earlier
• 46:28
  this week in mid-December,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: even though they know that Donald Trump is going to just...
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: abrogate those commitments.
• 46:36
  I think the thinking of that is that they are setting a new
• 46:40
  benchmark for the...
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: In effect,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: they're trying to box in the next Democratic president,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: because you're not going to want to say,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm setting less ambitious targets than the Biden-era ones.
• 46:52
  So I think that's a good example of doing something sneaky and
• 46:56
  counterproductive
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: that they should probably not be doing.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I
• 47:02
  I hope that they are helping work with senior civil service
• 47:07
  people to like fortify
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: their agencies and get ready for shit storms that are here to come.
• 47:14
  But I mean,
• 47:14
  I think the bad news is that obviously a lot of people are demoralized.
• 47:18
  But I think that to the extent that like they're really cooking
• 47:22
  on anything,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: it's just a kind of like –
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: policy maximalism,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:29
  this like last student loan relief before we get out the door
• 47:32
  thing where I think
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: you'd be hard pressed if you asked anyone like,
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: like what's actually the strategic logic of this,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like to the extent that people, it makes people happy.
• 47:43
  They're going to think Trump did it,
• 47:45
  um,
• 47:45
  which doesn't seem,
• 47:46
  you know,
• 47:47
  really ideal to me.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the, the Supreme court immunity thing, I think, um,
• 47:55
  probably in some small way responsible for this because I'm not
• 47:58
  always super
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: precise when I talk about it or what the implications are.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in part,
• 48:01
  that's because I know that the immunity itself has different
• 48:07
  ramifications
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: depending on whose hands it's in.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when it's in Trump's hands,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: it's potentially much worse than it is now under Joe Biden,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: who doesn't have criminal intent about everything.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: But what the immunity confers is the presumption that
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: that if an official act of a president violates a criminal law,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: that prosecutors can't charge it.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if they do charge it,
• 48:35
  they have to prove it without intruding on the president's
• 48:39
  official deliberations
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: and papers and things like that.
• 48:42
  So it creates a really high bar to convicting a president for...
• 48:47
  Like,
• 48:48
  for instance,
• 48:48
  if...
• 48:52
  if Donald Trump went to somebody in a armed branch of the
• 48:56
  government and said,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: go shoot that person and I'll pardon you.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's criminal all over the place,
• 49:02
  but it'd be really hard to do anything about because you'd have
• 49:07
  to prove that the
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: conversation went down as I just described it.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: nobody's going to talk, right?
• 49:14
  That just doesn't describe a terrain that Joe Biden can run
• 49:20
  around on a lot.
• 49:20
  There aren't a ton of criminal laws or laws with criminal
• 49:24
  penalties that he could
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: violate to make good policy on his way out the door.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've mentioned the Anti-Deficiency Act allows for some...
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: or forbids the president from spending money that hasn't been allocated.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so in theory, he could just...
• 49:39
  tell an agency to spend a shit ton of money that hasn't been
• 49:43
  allocated on some,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: something he thinks is good.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it would accomplish very much.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: He would be immune.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: and you know,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: it would be a big kind of,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: however,
• 49:55
  like there are things that I think he could do on his way out
• 49:58
  the door that would
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: be helpful.
• 49:59
  And I think the reason they're not happening is that they're
• 50:02
  just exhausted and
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: they're done and they're not really engaged at all in like,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: the effort to like, buttress American democracy for what's coming.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: I do hope and suspect
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're telling civil service workers,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 50:17
  be prepared to come in five days a week even if you've gotten
• 50:19
  used to telework
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: schedules and don't resign just because of this or that.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect some of that is happening.
• 50:26
  But Joe Biden could just declassify and release a bunch of
• 50:31
  government information
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: about Donald Trump and his shady ties.
• 50:34
  And I think he could probably just cancel Elon Musk's
• 50:37
  government contracts.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just do it.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to see that kind of –
• 50:45
  I would love to believe that they were thinking about it and to
• 50:48
  see them do it
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: because why the fuck not?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: And also,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: maybe Trump tries to put,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: the Humpty Dumpty back together again afterwards,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: but...
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Make it work at it.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Make it take up some of their time and resources.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I kind of suspect it won't happen,
• 51:07
  except maybe we'll get a report from Special Counsel Jack Smith
• 51:13
  on the stolen
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: documents in the January 6th case,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: since those cases aren't going to be tried now.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wish we had better news for you, Kirsten.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:26
  think that's right um all right um what are the what are the
• 51:29
  mechanisms of the 22nd
• 51:30
  amendment that uh prevent trump from running for a third term
• 51:34
  can a constitutional
• 51:35
  amendment be found unconstitutional kind of goes on but i mean
• 51:38
  you know okay i've
• 51:40
  i've given this some thought because here's here's an example
• 51:43
  of where we can be
• 51:44
  precise in our um the way we describe something and uh leave
• 51:50
  like listeners um
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: not confused about, this is not a prediction.
• 51:54
  I don't know if Trump is going to try to run for a third term
• 51:58
  or if he just hints
• 51:59
  at that and people around him hint at that to trigger us or
• 52:03
  because they actually have,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: they're laying the groundwork for something.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: My suspicion,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: if I had to guess,
• 52:08
  is that they realize that Trump being a lame duck is a
• 52:10
  political vulnerability for him,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: both domestically and internationally.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: People are just going to be less scared of a guy who
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: is time limited.
• 52:19
  And so they're trying to psych people into thinking like,
• 52:21
  what if he never leaves?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: like the text of the 22nd amendment says,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: and this is me quoting,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: no person shall be elected to the,
• 52:30
  no person should be elected to the office of the president more
• 52:34
  than twice.
• 52:35
  And no person who has held the office of the president or acted
• 52:38
  as president for
• 52:38
  more than two years of a term to which some other person was
• 52:42
  elected shall be
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: elected to the office of president more than once.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Add it all up is you can't be elected three times,
• 52:50
  and if you became president because you were vice president and
• 52:54
  the person you were
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: serving under died or left office,
• 52:57
  you can't run for a second term if you were president for three
• 53:01
  years of that first term.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: You have a 10-year maximum.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the prohibition is against being elected.
• 53:08
  And what I suspect is that if Trump tries to make good on this,
• 53:11
  he'll just announce a campaign.
• 53:13
  And then his legal argument will be like,
• 53:14
  I haven't been elected to anything.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's no prohibition against me running for president.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then-
• 53:20
  Leave it up to the Supreme Court to decide whether states can
• 53:23
  omit Trump from their ballot.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 53:27
  this version of the question that was called when Colorado
• 53:30
  tried to kick Trump off
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: the ballot for violating a different clause of the Constitution,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: the insurrection clause.
• 53:38
  And they'll hope that the Supreme Court says,
• 53:40
  yeah,
• 53:41
  like states can't leave him off.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's running.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of don't think that's what would happen,
• 53:46
  but I think the goal would be to get him on election night to
• 53:51
  be declared the
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: winner of the 2028 election and then say,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: what are you going to do?
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Stop him?
• 53:57
  The people have spoken and kind of turn the 22nd Amendment into
• 54:01
  a dead letter.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like both a fun and also kind of unsettling thought exercise.
• 54:13
  But I think that that is the mechanism that he would use if he
• 54:17
  was actually serious about this.
• 54:20
  I'd just say this is,
• 54:21
  like,
• 54:21
  pretty far down my,
• 54:23
  like,
• 54:23
  specific list of concerns.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's this, like...
• 54:29
  17 different flips that kind of have to happen versus just
• 54:32
  something more like,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: Trump is constitutionally ineligible to run again.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Elon Musk is constitutionally ineligible to become president.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: But the troika of like Trump, Musk, and Vance...
• 54:48
  constitutes like a path forward to continue immunizing Trump
• 54:52
  from accountability,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: enriching him,
• 54:55
  allow Musk to continue whatever this shadow president shtick
• 54:58
  he's been running for
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: the past three weeks.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it seems like, um,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 55:03
  a lot of other wealthy business people are both genuinely
• 55:07
  afraid of Trump and
• 55:08
  genuinely like and admire Musk a lot and are perhaps becoming
• 55:15
  entranced with the
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: idea of,
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 55:19
  authoritarian right synthesis that will allow them to achieve
• 55:24
  the long-time just,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: normal rich business guy dream of,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 55:30
  gutting Social Security and Medicare and getting away with it politically.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's just always been what,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: rich businessmen thought America should do,
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: even rich businessmen who were,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: very liberal and friendly with Barack Obama and stuff like that.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, like –
• 55:45
  It worries me more that you're going to have an oligarchic
• 55:48
  consolidation of people
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: than that Trump will have a personalistic – he's really old.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree with this.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: He's also not that interested in politics.
• 55:58
  I don't think that Donald Trump has any particular desire to be
• 56:04
  in charge of the
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: question of how do NEPA rules apply to –
• 56:11
  you know,
• 56:12
  power generation projects for AI data centers on public lands,
• 56:18
  right?
• 56:18
  Like the thing about Elon Musk is that he seems actually like
• 56:21
  quite interested in
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: In like running the federal government.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I have a lot of concerns.
• 56:30
  Didn't he tweet some like the new German Nazi party needs to
• 56:35
  win the election?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like he's got like,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: who knows exactly what he thinks,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: but he seems to be thinking like a lot of stuff.
• 56:45
  Like how to be president despite being constitutionally
• 56:48
  ineligible because you're
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: an immigrant from South Africa.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right,
• 56:50
  and how to pull strings in different countries and create AI
• 56:55
  that will determine
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: the future of humanity.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's a bad dude.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Should we do one more?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading this one.
• 57:04
  As someone that works in venture capital and has watched the
• 57:07
  slow motion move of tech,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: and in particular the tech podcast world to the right,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super fascinated by it.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: By the way,
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I should say this question is from Doji S.
• 57:17
  And one thing I think has been under discussed is the impact of
• 57:21
  the tech recession
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: that happened when the Fed started jacking up rates.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: After a decade of employees calling the shots,
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: power shifted dramatically back to investors and management.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: When the Twitterverse was freaking out about Elon's acquisition,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: the VCs and CEOs were fetishizing his layoffs.
• 57:37
  I'm curious how you think about the importance of this
• 57:39
  management worker dynamic in
• 57:41
  tech versus the wokeness debate and how it should impact Dem
• 57:44
  strategy moving forward.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, impact Dem strategy.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't really know.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: John Ganz,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: who hates me,
• 57:55
  but who I think is an insightful writer wrote a pretty good
• 57:58
  piece on this on
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: December 5th,
• 58:00
  where I would just ignore the parts where he's just like a
• 58:03
  dipshit to me personally
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: and ignores what I actually said about this.
• 58:07
  Read what,
• 58:08
  what he says,
• 58:08
  which is that,
• 58:09
  you know,
• 58:09
  there's a significant sort of
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like in a literal Marxist sense,
• 58:14
  I think like class war playing out in the tech sector where the
• 58:20
  labor force had
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: obtained a lot of power during the kind of the 20 teens,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 58:29
  Like a phrase that I heard a lot from Silicon Valley executives
• 58:34
  during that time
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: was war for talent.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it was incredibly important to Apple,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: Google,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: Microsoft,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: Netflix,
• 58:43
  all the growing tech companies needed to hire skilled engineers
• 58:49
  who could go work
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: for the other companies,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: but who also very plausibly could be early employees at startups.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 58:56
  You would be giving up a nice sweet pay package at Microsoft to
• 59:01
  go be employee 11
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: at a new startup.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: But the upside to being an early employee at a startup was huge.
• 59:08
  And so all of these companies were doing a lot to try to make
• 59:11
  people want to work there.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: And some of that was pay.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Some of that was,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: these infamous to everyone who doesn't work in Silicon Valley,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: like benefits,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: like Google cafes and stuff.
• 59:23
  And a lot of it you would see in the rhetoric was that like
• 59:26
  mission oriented
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: rhetoric of these different companies.
• 59:29
  But it would be so like Mark Zuckerberg was really interested
• 59:31
  in making you feel like
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: Facebook was on a mission to connect the universe.
• 59:39
  Google was going to not be evil,
• 59:41
  and they were going to systematize all the world's information.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Tim Cook,
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: there was a famous moment where he was asked at a investor meeting,
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: a shareholder meeting.
• 59:51
  Somebody said,
• 59:52
  why are you spending all this time on these accessibility
• 59:56
  features for iPhones?
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: What's the ROI on that?
• 59:59
  And Cook says,
• 1:00:00
  it's the right thing to do,
• 1:00:01
  and I don't care about your bloody ROI.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: Return on investment.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: And like, of course, Tim Cook does care about your return on investment.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think because he was a good executive,
• 1:00:11
  he saw that the return on investment of making people feel like
• 1:00:15
  designing really
• 1:00:16
  good smartphones with integrated hardware and software was like
• 1:00:19
  a noble thing to do
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: with your life.
• 1:00:21
  was high because he wanted to hire people who had strong
• 1:00:25
  intrinsic motivation and
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: not just kind of mercenary in it for the money type people.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the workforce in the tech sector is pretty liberal.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: And this caused every tech
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: entrepreneur to,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say like change their opinions,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: but like play up the views that they had liberal views on,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:00:50
  So like most people in this space are like pretty liberal on
• 1:00:54
  immigration and
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: understand that climate change is a significant problem and are not
• 1:01:00
  got personally invested in driving a pickup truck or having a
• 1:01:04
  rack full of guns at
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: their house and stuff like that.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: So they tried to align with this kind of thing.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: I do think not just the mechanics of the interest rates,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: but the nature of the AI revolution,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: the kind of vibe shift that all the layoffs at Twitter induced,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: have created an opportunity for capital,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: like literally venture capitalists,
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: to change this dynamic and to say,
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:33
  we would rather have Republicans who we agree with on taxes and
• 1:01:37
  regulation –
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: running the show and we don't need to pay obeisance to,
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:44
  abortion rights or anti-racism or being nice to gay people in
• 1:01:49
  the way that we used
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: to feel like we needed to because we have gained leverage over employees.
• 1:01:55
  And so it's no longer,
• 1:01:57
  you know,
• 1:01:58
  when when Mark Zuckerberg goes to Mar-a-Lago and
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: to have dinner with Donald Trump,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: he can come back and say to his team,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: look,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: the guy won the election.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: Of course I'm going to talk to him about what's good for the company.
• 1:02:11
  If that had happened in 2017,
• 1:02:13
  Zuckerberg would have faced an employee revolt at Meta
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_02: And he would have talked about – he would have defended it.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think he still would have done it maybe,
• 1:02:22
  but he would have talked about all of Forward.us' work on
• 1:02:26
  immigration reform and
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: how determined he was to protect undocumented people and build a world.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Facebook is all about connecting everyone,
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: and that includes across borders,
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: But now he doesn't need to worry.
• 1:02:40
  If random leftist engineers want to quit in a huff,
• 1:02:44
  I think he would say that that's probably –
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: Good for him.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: It means he doesn't need to do any layoffs.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: He'll just hire some different people.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's right.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I'm boiling down what you're saying correctly,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: is that these guys were passing off greed as a kind of moral vanity.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then when the bubble popped,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: All that went out the window.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: All the high-minded shit went out the window,
• 1:03:12
  and it was just David Sachs shit-talking the left and calling
• 1:03:18
  Joe Biden enfeebled
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: and asking for a bailout for Silicon Valley Bank,
• 1:03:22
  and then turning around and casting aspersions about various
• 1:03:27
  other policies that he
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: would lambast his bailouts.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's that...
• 1:03:33
  That was the mechanism that turned off the bullshit that they
• 1:03:39
  had been peddling and
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: like the true colors emerged.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and just to be precise about who we're talking about, right?
• 1:03:43
  So it was like Ro Khanna is like the House member who literally
• 1:03:47
  represents Silicon
• 1:03:48
  Valley because like the votes are like tech sector people who
• 1:03:54
  are quite liberal.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then David Sachs personally, David Sachs, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: These are white South African emigres who've always been right wing.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: Marc Andreessen was a Mitt Romney bundler, right?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: So like those are just guys who've always been conservative.
• 1:04:11
  What's changed is that it used to be that like broadly
• 1:04:15
  executives felt they had to
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: pander to the views of the media and software engineer.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: And like now they don't.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so they can be friendlier to right-wing venture capitalists.
• 1:04:29
  They can be more aggressive about the fact that they think
• 1:04:33
  government spending is
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: bad because they would like taxes to be lower and that they care a lot,
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: a lot,
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: a lot about regulation.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, to be fair –
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:04:43
  another thing that happened is that like Lena Kahn wrote an
• 1:04:46
  essay that said Amazon
• 1:04:48
  as a company is bad and the federal government should like make
• 1:04:51
  it not exist.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then Joe Biden put her in charge of an important regulatory agency.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever you think about her, that's why I disagree with Ganz.
• 1:05:03
  If somebody writes an essay that says the federal government
• 1:05:06
  should make slow
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: boring not exist,
• 1:05:08
  and then a politician puts that person in charge of a
• 1:05:10
  regulatory agency that could
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: plausibly cause my business to not exist,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be pretty fucking pissed about that.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now, maybe it's the right thing to do.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's not, right?
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: But some of the tech class stuff,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: I have a little bit of like,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: what did you think was going to happen?
• 1:05:26
  It was a kind of like,
• 1:05:29
  not necessarily even a bad idea,
• 1:05:30
  but politically thoughtless.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: to be like,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:05:36
  are we going to make taking on big tech the centerpiece of our administration?
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or is actually our top priority climate change and healthcare?
• 1:05:45
  It's just a weird thing to do if you're not going to welcome
• 1:05:50
  their hatred.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: You actually just beat me to where I was headed,
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: which is that if you think tech is a malign influence in the world,
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: you have to make it clear why so the tech realm becomes less
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: popular in the world and then do an FDR style.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: I welcome their hatred thing.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: And Democrats don't really do either of those things.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: They don't like,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: even with wall street,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: it was like,
• 1:06:14
  like Obama crossed this big Rubicon when he like used the word
• 1:06:18
  fat cats once,
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: and then,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: and then kind of never,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: kind of never again.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: But like,
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: but like even today,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: they,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: they,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: they don't do the demonizing thing,
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: which I think they should do more of.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then they,
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: When they're confronted with an unpopular but powerful opposing force,
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: they don't do the I welcome their hatred thing.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to disagree with that,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_02: though,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_02: because like Democrats do do the demonizing thing about big oil,
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: about pharma.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like and like.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think the problem here is like.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, like viewing the demonizing thing.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: As like subsidiary, right?
• 1:07:02
  And you – I guess what I would say about this is like you got
• 1:07:06
  to ask yourself,
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: like what do you actually think about this?
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:07:09
  And like I think that the reason Democrats haven't gone around
• 1:07:13
  demonizing Amazon
• 1:07:14
  and Google is that Democrats themselves in their heart of
• 1:07:18
  hearts do not think that
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: Amazon and Google are bad.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: That they buy stuff on Amazon, just like fucking everybody else.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: They think Google web search is useful.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: They think Gmail is a much better email than what came before.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: That Amazon package delivery is great.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: That fucking Jack Reacher is amazing.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but bracket that.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:07:38
  you could think that many of the products that come out of
• 1:07:40
  Silicon Valley are good,
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: but that it has created a wealth,
• 1:07:46
  a level of wealth and a form of political economy that is very
• 1:07:50
  bad for the United States.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then maybe the answer is not break up the companies,
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: but jack their taxes up through the roof.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, you could.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just, I think, what I think is that like,
• 1:08:02
  I think Democrats,
• 1:08:04
  if they're thinking about these things,
• 1:08:05
  feel like policy is one thing.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then demonizing, that's a really hot take.
• 1:08:14
  But you got to think about it from the point of view of the
• 1:08:16
  subject of your policy.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you're Jeff Bezos,
• 1:08:21
  you're going to be really upset about public policy measures
• 1:08:25
  that are really bad
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: for Amazon.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't mean Democrats shouldn't do it,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_02: but only do it if you want to immediately escalate to demonization.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: And like, if you're not Joe Biden, I think correctly.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: was not comfortable with the demonization of these tech companies,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: which I think means he just shouldn't have taken them on at all.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, just take the fucking dive and do your climate thing.
• 1:08:52
  Or if you care about the big tech,
• 1:08:53
  like,
• 1:08:53
  you got to take a dive on the climate thing.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and also, but with Biden, it was like –
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was like Elon in his labor, like the – Sure, yeah.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09:02
  But I mean actually that's like a great example where it was
• 1:09:05
  like Biden wanted to
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: promote electric cars,
• 1:09:09
  but he wasn't comfortable promoting the top electric car maker
• 1:09:12
  in America.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: So you could have just like let the whole thing lie.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just like that talked a lot about electric cars.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if somebody asks you, like, what's up with Tesla?
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Be like, well, I don't know.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: They seem like good cars, but I'm concerned about the labor practices.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: But he like wanted to talk a lot about promoting.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody made him host an EV summit at the White House.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: Once he decided to host an EV summit at the White House,
• 1:09:38
  there was then the question of surely an EV summit should
• 1:09:41
  heavily feature the
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: world's leading EV entrepreneur.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_02: But then they didn't want to celebrate Elon Musk.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: So then they held an EV summit that excluded him.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_02: And Musk,
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: I would be mad if somebody was like,
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: we're going to do a contrarian center-left politics substacker summit.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then like, I don't get to come.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, fuck you.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, like, what are you doing here?
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like, some of this is that Biden is old.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Some of this is just like,
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: everybody wants to get along,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_01: you gotta,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like,
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like Biden 10 years ago would have been like,
• 1:10:16
  I'm going to invite Elon Musk and then I'm going to bring him
• 1:10:18
  into the Oval Office
• 1:10:19
  and I'm going to persuade him that his views on organized labor
• 1:10:23
  are wrong and that
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: he should both make,
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: continue to make these great cars and also like let his workers go.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: or just like have a back and forth and be like,
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Elon,
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: we love how the acceleration,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: but like,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like how you're treating the workers.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why are all these guys South African?
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_01: What is there?
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a like, is it just a weird coincidence?
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's the it's it's the PayPal mafia.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I don't know the backstory.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't totally know the backstory.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: If it's a coincidence or... Yeah, anyway.
• 1:11:00
  Well,
• 1:11:00
  so Peter Thiel and David Sachs,
• 1:11:03
  I think,
• 1:11:03
  know each other going way back.
• 1:11:07
  I think they were both white South African Stanford students in
• 1:11:13
  the early 90s.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:11:14
  And so they were buddies and they wrote a book together called
• 1:11:16
  The Diversity Myth.
• 1:11:18
  And then were like PayPal co-founders and Musk was also there
• 1:11:24
  as were various other people.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I think, I think again, like not even in a bad way.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think if you find yourself at a college campus,
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: you will naturally gravitate to some other members of your weird.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was legitimately just curious.
• 1:11:41
  Like it just seems like a lot of very extremely rich tech guys
• 1:11:45
  who happen to be
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: from a small country.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's more than you would think.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing great stuff.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've been known to, I used to PayPal things.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Now I guess I Stripe.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Stripe, Venmo, and Zelle.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Stripe.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_02: See, we need more Irish entrepreneurs.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're so friendly.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think Mike wants us to wrap up.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're done.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're done.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Merry Christmas.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're sorry to those questioners whose questions we didn't get to,
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: but we're going to leave it there.
• 1:12:15
  We hope everyone has a great Christmas and an even better new year,
• 1:12:21
  notwithstanding everything.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll catch you again in 2025.
• 1:12:27
  Politics is a Matt Iglesias,
• 1:12:30
  Brian Boitler joint,
• 1:12:31
  and our producer is Mike Shane.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Farewell.