Latest / Uncensored Objection / [Podcast Episode] Patriot or Nationalist? The Dangerous Game Trump Is Playing with America’s Soul

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[Podcast Episode] Patriot or Nationalist? The Dangerous Game Trump Is Playing with America’s Soul · Uncensored Objection

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: OK, so you look at the headlines today, 2025, right?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Things are moving so fast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Policies are changing.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it really makes you think, doesn't it?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: About what it means to be American right now.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's precisely what we want to get into today in this deep dive.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: We found this really insightful analysis.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: It cuts right to the core of this moment.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's from attorney Mitch Jackson's substack Uncensored Objection.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's been looking closely at the political climate,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: under President Trump and focusing on something fundamental.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Which is?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Where patriotism stops and maybe nationalism begins.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a critical distinction he's making.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not just semantics, is it?
• 0:40
  It feels like,
• 0:41
  you know,
• 0:42
  understanding that difference is key to navigating where we are.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the core distinction he lays out?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: he defines patriotism as fundamentally loving your country,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: but it's a love that demands something.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Demands what?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Demands that the country actually lives up to its promises.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, freedom, justice, equality for everyone.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not passive.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's active.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's about pushing for those ideals, not just waving a flag.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: How does nationalism compare in his view?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Nationalism, he argues, it's different.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's focused more on power, dominance and often exclusion.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exclusion.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like drawing lines.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who's really part of the nation?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it demands loyalty,
• 1:23
  but maybe more to a leader or a specific group rather than the
• 1:27
  Constitution itself.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really stark contrast.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So patriotism is about shared values.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: We the people.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: While nationalism,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: as he sees it,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: can sometimes lean more on like slogans and symbols,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: maybe even overlooking the actual values they're supposed to represent.
• 1:43
  So patriotism loves the country and its ideals,
• 1:46
  ready to criticize when they aren't met.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And nationalism in his framework is more about pride,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: power and often,
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: shutting down criticism,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: defining us very narrowly.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: OK, this brings us to that phrase, America first.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds appealing on the surface, right?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Very much so.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the analysis suggests that how it was put into practice,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: particularly under the Trump administration,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: tilted more towards an isolationist nationalism.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not patriotism.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Not in the way he defines patriotism, no.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: He points to things like,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: pulling back from allies,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: exiting international agreements like the Paris Accord.
• 2:19
  The trade wars that,
• 2:20
  well,
• 2:21
  ended up hurting American farmers and industries,
• 2:23
  too.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe sort of spurning alliances like NATO, that kind of thing.
• 2:29
  So the argument is that a truly patriotic America first might
• 2:34
  look different.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps more like global leadership for American values,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: working with allies,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: tackling problems together,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: but always grounded in those core principles of freedom and justice.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: He brings up history here, too, doesn't he?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Leaders who build alliances.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: He does.
• 2:50
  And quotes George Washington urging people to stick to the Union,
• 2:53
  stick to the Constitution.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: The idea is that engagement,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: working with others,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: actually makes America stronger and better able to promote its values.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: OK, let's shift gears slightly.
• 3:02
  Another big area in this analysis is how immigrants and
• 3:05
  minorities are treated.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: The argument is that patriotism recognizes America's foundation,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: built by immigrants and stands against prejudice.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And nationalism.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nationalism,
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  SPEAKER_00: in this view,
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  SPEAKER_00: often gains ground by,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: stirring up fear of the other,
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: creating suspicion about people who seem different.
• 3:24
  We've certainly heard rhetoric that,
• 3:25
  you know,
• 3:26
  paints certain groups negatively.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the author argues this kind of language is inherently divisive.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: It works against building a shared identity.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the patriotic view remembers the history.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Remembers people coming here for freedom,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: for the promise of the Constitution,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: like equal protection.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: His point is kind of nationalism looks for scapegoats outside.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of looking for solutions inside.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Based on our values,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: he brings up Lincoln,
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: a house divided against itself cannot stand.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: That warning feels relevant.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: That leads directly into the next point, doesn't it?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: The importance of justice and our institutions.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely central.
• 4:03
  The piece argues that patriotism requires deep respect for the
• 4:06
  rule of law,
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: trusting our systems.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And nationalism, again, the contrast.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's seen as prioritizing power above all.
• 4:13
  So if institutions,
• 4:15
  courts,
• 4:15
  laws get in the way of that power,
• 4:17
  they get questioned,
• 4:19
  attacked.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's the concern raised.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: The analysis points to examples like criticism of judges,
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: the FBI,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: the Justice Department,
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: even the free press.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: These are seen as attacks on the system itself.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And election integrity comes up, too.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Questioning results.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about foreign interference.
• 4:35
  The core argument is that patriots defend these institutions
• 4:38
  even when they don't
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: like the outcomes.
• 4:40
  He quotes Theodore Roosevelt on this about opposing a president
• 4:44
  who threatens the foundations.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: He does.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And Washington, again, on the Constitution being sacredly obligatory.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the system being bigger than any one person or party.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Which brings us to the idea of a cult of personality.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: How does that fit in?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 4:57
  the concern outlined is about loyalty shifting from the
• 5:00
  country's ideals to a
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: specific leader.
• 5:05
  Patriotism uses symbols the flag,
• 5:07
  for instance,
• 5:08
  to represent shared values.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: But in this other dynamic...
• 5:11
  The observation is that sometimes symbols seem tied mainly to
• 5:14
  the leader's presence.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Think rallies where loyalty feels very focused on the individual.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And questioning that leader becomes unpatriotic.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's the danger highlighted.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: that patriotism gets twisted to mean you can't ask tough questions,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: whereas the argument goes true patriotism demands we ask tough questions.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: He mentions specific examples like the Bible photo op or flag usage.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: suggesting they felt more about projecting one person's image than about,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: the nation's collective identity or value.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Contrasted with, say, veterans serving under that flag.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 5:48
  Or General Eisenhower's warning about not substituting slogans
• 5:51
  for core values.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a powerful point.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: This all feeds into a really fundamental question the analysis raises.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Who counts as American?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is patriotism inclusive?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Does it embrace everyone under we the people?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or does nationalism create divisions, like real Americans versus others?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's the worry.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: That nationalism inherently creates an us and a them.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: The counter-argument is that patriotism has to be about everyone,
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: all citizens,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: not just those who voted a certain way.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Lincoln and Gettysburg comes up again here.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, speaking about this nation unifying north and south even then.
• 6:24
  And Washington warning against splitting people off from their
• 6:27
  fellow citizens.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's about finding common ground.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:30
  The analysis even points to everyday things like people with
• 6:33
  different views just
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: working together in their communities.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's seen as patriotism in action, cooperation over division.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting how this analysis keeps connecting back to history,
• 6:44
  arguing that figures we see as patriots today actually echoed
• 6:48
  these same concerns.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Washington,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Lincoln,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Teddy Roosevelt,
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  SPEAKER_00: they all talked about unity,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: about facing national failings,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: honestly,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: about holding leaders accountable.
• 7:00
  That Roosevelt quote,
• 7:01
  again,
• 7:02
  the duty to oppose a leader who isn't serving the country.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a strong statement about where ultimate loyalty should lie,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: not with the person,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: but with the country and its principles.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the analysis mentions others, too, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: People who are controversial in their time.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like Susan B.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Anthony or Martin Luther King Jr.,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: seen as disruptive,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: maybe even unpatriotic by some back then.
• 7:23
  But now viewed as deeply patriotic for pushing America closer
• 7:27
  to its ideals.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: It shows that patriotism isn't always comfortable.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: It often involves challenging the status quo for the better.
• 7:34
  So boiling it all down,
• 7:35
  what's the final takeaway,
• 7:36
  the call to action from this piece?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty direct.
• 7:38
  It urges every voter,
• 7:40
  every citizen to consciously choose patriotism over nationalism.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: How?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: By speaking out,
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: getting involved,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: volunteering and critically by voting,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: by actively defending the Constitution and our core values.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it means standing against a popular leader.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Especially then, perhaps.
• 7:57
  The argument is that true love of country means upholding its
• 8:01
  foundational
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: principles above all else.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: It paints this moment as a real crossroads.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 8:06
  A choice between sort of a nationalism focused on power and
• 8:09
  exclusion and a
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: patriotism rooted in democracy,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: justice and unity for everyone.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it ends with that question about the flag, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: What does it represent?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:17
  Is it a trophy for one party or leader or is it a symbol of our
• 8:21
  shared democratic ideals?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: A powerful question to leave people with.
• 8:25
  So wrapping up this deep dive into the analysis from uncensored objection,
• 8:29
  it really drives some of these crucial differences between
• 8:31
  patriotism and nationalism,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: particularly relevant in,
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: 2025.
• 8:36
  The core message seems to be about sticking to our
• 8:39
  constitutional principles,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: valuing inclusivity,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: justice,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: equality,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: that that's the heart of true American patriotism.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: We really do recommend you check out the full piece.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Head over to the Uncensored Objections substack.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: The author is attorney Mitch Jackson.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Read the article.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: See his other work, too.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, subscribe if you find it valuable.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Share it.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Jump into the comments.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Engaging with these ideas is important.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: It leaves you thinking, doesn't it?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: How can each of us,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: in our own way,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: make that active choice for patriotism in our communities,
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: in our lives?