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Trump Promises "A Unified Reich" · Pod Save America

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: I am Adisu Demesi.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Adisu, welcome.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Look at us.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We are in the studio. No John, no Lovett, no Tommy.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: We have taken over.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: The Bay Area has invaded Los Angeles.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: On today's show, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris hit back
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: at Donald Trump for posting a video that uses Nazi language.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Trump refuses to say whether he'll limit access to contraception
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: if he wins. Manhattan hush money trial heads to a
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: jury next week. And some yahoos are still arguing that
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: the whole thing might help him. And our longtime friends,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Brian Wallach, Sandra Abravaya, and Katie Couric stopped by to
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: talk with John about their incredibly powerful new documentary about
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Brian's ALS diagnosis and how Brian and Sandra decided to
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: turn that crisis into an opportunity to push for a cure.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: You really won't want to miss this interview. It's incredibly powerful.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Amazing folks. God bless them.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: But first, on Monday, Donald Trump, a periodic dining companion
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: of no Nazis, posted a video to his Truth Social
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: account that used fake newspaper articles in the background. Included
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: in those articles was the headline, What's Next for America?,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Under that phrase was creation of a unified Reich. Everyone
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: quite rightly freaked out about this, and the Trump campaign
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: finally took it down after, oh, about 18 hours. The
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Biden campaign obviously saw an opening because both Joe Biden
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: and Kamala Harris immediately went on the attack. Let's take
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: a listen.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: What's next for America?
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Is this on his official account?
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: A unified Reich? That's Hitler's language. That's not America's.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: He cares about holding on to power.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I care about you.
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: Just yesterday... The former president of the United States, who
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: praises dictators, who said there were very fine people on
• 1:55
  Speaker 5: both sides in Charlottesville, took to social media and highlighted
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: language from Nazi Germany. This kind of rhetoric is unsurprising
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: coming from the former president, and it is appalling.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: The Trump campaign blamed a staffer who they claimed hadn't
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: actually seen the Reich language. The video also appears to
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: use stock footage that includes this language. However, this is
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: just the most recent example of Trump playing footsie with
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Nazi language. Here's a quick reminder.
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: They're poisoning the blood of our country.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: That's what they've done.
• 2:29
  Speaker 6: They poison mental institutions.
• 2:32
  Speaker 7: But you also had people that were very fine people
• 2:36
  Speaker 7: on both sides. Any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat,
• 2:43
  Speaker 7: I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge
• 2:45
  Speaker 7: or great disloyalty.
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: Isn't that anti-Semitic? No, no, no.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: It's only in your head. It's only anti-Semitic in your head.
• 2:53
  Speaker 6: Even these spoiled, rich Jewish guys, they can't believe how good.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: This is, you know?
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Now, you'll notice that Trump never accidentally posts a video
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: that has language like universal health care.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Stumbles into saying something like democracy is good.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Nazi stuff.
• 3:08
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Or diversity.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: The blame the intern strategy, really.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's 2024, guys. It's a classic of the genre.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: We have read a thousand times about how more disciplined
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: and strategic and better staff this Trump campaign is than
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: his previous efforts. So how the hell does this keep happening?
• 3:23
  Speaker 8: First of all, masks slip off sometimes. It seems to
• 3:29
  Speaker 8: be one of those times. Look, They do not deserve
• 3:32
  Speaker 8: the benefit of the doubt on this one. You've played
• 3:34
  Speaker 8: all those clips, obviously. There have been enough instances of
• 3:38
  Speaker 8: Easter eggs and hat tips to right-wing extremists that, you know,
• 3:42
  Speaker 8: you didn't play the clip from the 2020 debate, the
• 3:45
  Speaker 8: stand back and stand by to the Proud Boys. I mean,
• 3:47
  Speaker 8: after seven, eight, ten, dozens of times this happening, they
• 3:50
  Speaker 8: don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. I think that
• 3:52
  Speaker 8: they pulled it down is a somewhat rare, honestly, acknowledgement
• 3:56
  Speaker 8: that they really fucked this one up, but they have
• 3:58
  Speaker 8: run a smarter campaign this time, especially in the primary,
• 4:01
  Speaker 8: but You know, you're it's like it's like your crazy
• 4:04
  Speaker 8: ex who claims that they, you know, have changed.
• 4:06
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 4:07
  Speaker 8: Like then you see some of the old person come
• 4:10
  Speaker 8: out as we get. And I think as we get
• 4:11
  Speaker 8: closer to the election and as, you know, it gets
• 4:14
  Speaker 8: more stressful for the campaign and for Trump himself, you're
• 4:16
  Speaker 8: going to see who he really is and who, you know,
• 4:18
  Speaker 8: that mass slip off more and more.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're really grading Trump and his campaign on
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: a pretty steep curve.
• 4:23
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, the campaign's in 16 and 20, even though
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: he won in 16. Was an absolute shit show. And
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: 20 was just like filled with grifters who were trying
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: to make money off the thing. And this one, like
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles are like real political operatives.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're actual good political minds, as it were.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: And the campaign seems to have more of a strategy.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: They more adhere to a larger sort of strategic vision
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: of how they're going to win. And I think they're
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: probably spending money with more discipline than they did in
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: the past. The product is the product, man.
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: That's the thing. It's Trump.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: The thing that hasn't changed is Trump.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:58
  Speaker 8: And you can put lipstick on a pig, you know, whatever.
• 5:01
  Speaker 8: Use whatever metaphor you want. Like, ultimately, the truth is
• 5:05
  Speaker 8: going to come out about him. And he's going to
• 5:07
  Speaker 8: have to present himself at the debate on June 27th,
• 5:10
  Speaker 8: many times in public, unfiltered between now and November 5th. And,
• 5:15
  Speaker 8: you know, as much as Chris and Susie are going
• 5:17
  Speaker 8: to try to cover up who he really is, it's
• 5:20
  Speaker 8: going to continue to come out. And things like this,
• 5:22
  Speaker 8: he likes stirring the pot like this. And he's doing
• 5:25
  Speaker 8: this on purpose to send a message to his right-wing supporters.
• 5:28
  Speaker 8: And we'd have to call him out on it. And
• 5:29
  Speaker 8: the president and the vice president did.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: What do you make of the president and vice president's response?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: The campaign has leaned incredibly hard into this. Mitch Landrieu
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: has been out. There have been videos. They put out
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: a very lengthy statement. They clearly want this fight. Why
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: do you think they want it? And what do you
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: make of the way they're executing that?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: So I think they want it because....
• 5:48
  Speaker 8: The more this election is about a choice between Joe
• 5:51
  Speaker 8: Biden and Donald Trump, the better. And because, you know,
• 5:54
  Speaker 8: this is the first time that Donald Trump has run
• 5:57
  Speaker 8: as a challenger to incumbent, right?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: In 2016, it was an open seat. In 2020, he
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: was the incumbent.
• 6:01
  Speaker 8: So naturally, this election is going to be more about
• 6:04
  Speaker 8: the incumbent, Joe Biden, sitting there than about Donald Trump.
• 6:07
  Speaker 8: And so what I think they're doing is any opportunity
• 6:09
  Speaker 8: that they get to remind people who Donald Trump is
• 6:12
  Speaker 8: and that he is the alternative in this race, as
• 6:15
  Speaker 8: the president always says, don't compare me to the Almighty,
• 6:17
  Speaker 8: compare me to the alternative. Donald Trump is the alternative.
• 6:20
  Speaker 8: And this was an opportunity where they messed up and
• 6:23
  Speaker 8: they gave, you know, a small hole for the campaign
• 6:26
  Speaker 8: to run through and they're trying to drive a truck
• 6:27
  Speaker 8: through it. And so I think it makes sense as
• 6:30
  Speaker 8: a strategy. And I think, you know, particularly what the
• 6:32
  Speaker 8: president said in that clip that was played about, you know,
• 6:37
  Speaker 8: he's making this all about himself. He's in it for himself,
• 6:39
  Speaker 8: for power for himself. Joe Biden is in it for,
• 6:42
  Speaker 8: you know, I care about you. That to me distills
• 6:45
  Speaker 8: in a lot of ways what this election needs to
• 6:47
  Speaker 8: be all about to present that choice pretty clearly to voters.
• 6:49
  Speaker 8: So it makes sense as a strategic matter to jump
• 6:54
  Speaker 8: on an opponent's mistake. And I think as a tactical matter,
• 6:56
  Speaker 8: what they're saying is the right message to put forward.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: You know, when I first saw the video and saw
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: the sort of prouhaha about it on Monday evening, I
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: guess when it was, My first thought was like, this
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: is 2017 all over again. It just felt like we
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: were just doing the same dance we have always done
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: that has never really moved the numbers in any way, shape,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: or form. It's Donald Trump does something on social media.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: It was Twitter back in the day. We're outraged by it.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: A bunch of folks like myself and other resistance people,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: they tweet about it. And then cable news goes bananas
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: about it. And nothing happens. Nothing happens. And one of
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: the critiques that has existed about how Democrats have handled
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Trump is we swing at every pitch.
• 7:40
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Now, I think in this case, this is actually an
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: example of how I think the Biden campaign has learned
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: some of the lessons of the past. Because, look, if
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: your opponent puts out a video that says what's next
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  Speaker 2: for America is a unified right, like, you have to respond.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: That is a giant fat one across the plate. You
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: have to swing. But what they did is they swung strategically, right?
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: And to your point, that, the narrative that Trump cares
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: about himself, Biden cares about you, like, that is the
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Ultimate that is their narrative about Trump. That is what
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: they want to drive with voters So they saw not
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: they saw an opportunity that would have virality, right? Cuz
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: so much of what's happening breaks through to no one
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: and this one may not either but there this is
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: a sort of thing that at least is controversial enough
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: that there's a chance that it like jumps from Nicole
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Wallace's show to tick-tock like a normal voter may see it.
• 8:27
  Speaker 8: It's clippable in a way and and and Has the
• 8:31
  Speaker 8: potential for virality in a way that you know some
• 8:34
  Speaker 8: of the pitches are come across the plate don't. And
• 8:37
  Speaker 8: I do think that, you know, we're probably going to
• 8:39
  Speaker 8: talk more about this. The things that remind voters out
• 8:43
  Speaker 8: there about Trump's extremism, about the chaos that he brings,
• 8:47
  Speaker 8: about it just puts the choice in stark relief. You know,
• 8:51
  Speaker 8: part of the challenge for the Biden presidency and Biden
• 8:54
  Speaker 8: is that He's been a normal guy who's sort of
• 8:57
  Speaker 8: treated the presidency normally. And it's caused people to take
• 9:00
  Speaker 8: a step back from politics. And as, you know, swing
• 9:02
  Speaker 8: voters in particular, who it still may, they're not necessarily
• 9:05
  Speaker 8: paying close attention to the race, as they step back
• 9:07
  Speaker 8: into the political arena, the Biden campaign and those of
• 9:10
  Speaker 8: us who are supporting the Biden campaign need to make
• 9:12
  Speaker 8: sure that we remind people about who Donald Trump was,
• 9:15
  Speaker 8: because that has been memory hold a bit, right? So
• 9:17
  Speaker 8: even as this is, it does feel a little more 2017-ish,
• 9:20
  Speaker 8: like 2017 in the vote, in the.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Minds of a lot of voters was a long, long
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: time ago, and it doesn't exist.
• 9:27
  Speaker 9: It was.
• 9:27
  Speaker 8: It was seven years ago, right? And it also just,
• 9:29
  Speaker 8: it's gone, right? Charlottesville, things like what the vice president
• 9:31
  Speaker 8: talked about, memory hold for a lot of people. So
• 9:33
  Speaker 8: we are reminding people of something that's probably in the
• 9:36
  Speaker 8: back of their head and bringing it to the forefront, again,
• 9:38
  Speaker 8: to present a choice between Joe Biden, the guy who
• 9:40
  Speaker 8: cares about you and is a normal guy, and Donald Trump,
• 9:44
  Speaker 8: who is the guy who's in it for himself and
• 9:45
  Speaker 8: a chaos agent.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: The other thing that's interesting here, it's one of the
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: reasons why I wanted to play the clip, is Blueprint Research,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: a Democratic- polling in a messaging firm looked at, has
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: done a lot of polling on voters under 30. And
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: one of the things they discovered was voters under 30,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: particularly voters under 25, no, none of the things that
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: we all just could cite off the top of our head.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Like I was working with a producer. So I was like,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: can you get this clip? Can you get the very
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: fine people? One, like I know, you know, the greatest hits.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: I know we all know the greatest hits talking about Nazis.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: And we have this assumption and it really drives a
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: lot of, I think the political coverage of this campaign
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: is that everyone knows everything there is to know about
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump and Joe Biden. And therefore nothing new, there
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: is no new information about Donald Trump that could move voters.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: But if you are 25, like you, you probably weren't
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: paying attention to any of this, right? You were 18
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: years old or 17 years old. I hope when you
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: were 18, you were not watching Don Lemon at night, right?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: You were doing your homework, having fun with friends. And
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: so this can be new information. It's a reminder for
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of people, but it can also be new
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: information for other voters. The other thing about it that's interesting,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: and we can get into this a little more later,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: is swing voters, persuadable voters, are usually engaged with political
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: news less than everyone else. But the one thing that
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: has changed this time is when they were not fully
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: engaged in previous elections, they still had a general sense
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: of what was happening because you kind of, it was
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: kind of hard if you paid any attention to news
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: to not like just understand what was happening, particularly in
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: the Trump years when Trump was front and center. Now,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: you were either like a news junkie who like knows
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: everything or you know nothing. Like there is very little
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: people in the middle who are just kind of like,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: they have like one foot in political news.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Or you're getting it very passively on social media.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: And TikTok primarily.
• 11:24
  Speaker 8: And TikTok and Instagram reels and Twitter. not, not Twitter
• 11:29
  Speaker 8: or X from creators that are, who knows what, you know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 8: some of, some of the stuff we don't even see
• 11:36
  Speaker 8: the people who are in politics don't see, but is
• 11:39
  Speaker 8: sometimes factually compromised, let's say, and, or sometimes intentionally so
• 11:43
  Speaker 8: from a nefarious actor. So yeah, it is, it is
• 11:45
  Speaker 8: really interesting that, yeah, you can't like by osmosis learn
• 11:49
  Speaker 8: about what's going on in politics. Certainly not the same
• 11:51
  Speaker 8: way you could 12 years ago in the Obama campaign
• 11:53
  Speaker 8: or even eight years ago with Clinton.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Or even four years ago.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, four years ago, people were locked in their house
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: and they were like, you were consuming the news because
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: he told you whether you could go to work the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: next week or when to get a vaccine. And so
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: if you were watching- Might have.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Been watching more news. Right, people were.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, ratings were up because people had to watch
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: it for reasons that were not just politics. And then
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: you were getting politics and you were probably seeing, like
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: one of his probably great strategic areas in election was
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: doing those daily COVID briefings. So if you wanted to
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: find out when schools were going to reopen or when
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: to get a shot or not get a shot, it
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: was going to be you had to see Trump. And
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: now no one sees Trump.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Speaking of seeing Trump, here's something voters may care even
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: more about than a Nazi-promoting former president. In an interview
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: with a Pittsburgh TV station, Donald Trump declined to rule
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: out limits on contraception if he wins. Let's take a listen.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: So related to this is the whole issue of contraceptives.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: Do you support any restrictions on a person's right to contraception?
• 12:52
  Speaker 6: Well, we're looking at that, and I'm going to have
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: a policy on that very shortly. And I think it's
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: something that you'll find interesting. And it's another issue that's
• 13:01
  Speaker 6: very interesting. But you will find it, I think, very smart.
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: I think it's a smart decision. But we'll be releasing
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: it very soon.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I would note that it seems pretty clear that Donald
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Trump has no idea what the question is, may not
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: know what his policy is, and has been promising a
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: contraception policy in a few weeks for months now.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe years. I don't know.
• 13:19
  Speaker 6: But.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: He's obviously left a huge opening for Democrats. What do
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: you make of this, and how should Democrats take advantage
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: of it?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Gift. I mean, absolute gift.
• 13:28
  Speaker 8: I think we should talk about driving a truck through
• 13:31
  Speaker 8: a hole. This is a gaping one that we should
• 13:34
  Speaker 8: absolutely lean into. It's pretty clear, you maybe saw on
• 13:39
  Speaker 8: Truth Social, he tried to clean this one up immediately.
• 13:42
  Speaker 8: This might be one of the benefits of Trump being
• 13:44
  Speaker 8: a bit in the background, is that I'm not sure
• 13:45
  Speaker 8: a post on Truth Social is cleaning up any any
• 13:48
  Speaker 8: messes with respect to this, but we won't let him,
• 13:51
  Speaker 8: you know, Democrats should not let him. It is, it
• 13:54
  Speaker 8: is one of the core issues of this campaign. The
• 13:57
  Speaker 8: long tail of Dobbs remains. It is as strong as ever.
• 14:01
  Speaker 8: And let's be real and be serious and be clear
• 14:04
  Speaker 8: with ourselves and with the voters. This is part of
• 14:06
  Speaker 8: the Trump second term agenda. Like Dobbs was the beginning.
• 14:10
  Speaker 8: Contraception is on the table. Project 2025, you probably have
• 14:13
  Speaker 8: seen this, like the, banning birth control is, or at
• 14:16
  Speaker 8: least limiting birth control, restricting birth control is part of the,
• 14:19
  Speaker 8: the Trump second term agenda. And so I think there is,
• 14:22
  Speaker 8: there's the specifics about this, right? The, this, the, um,
• 14:26
  Speaker 8: how backwards it is to talk about, you know, banning
• 14:29
  Speaker 8: birth control, but it's also an opening to talk about
• 14:32
  Speaker 8: what the real consequences of a, of a, of a
• 14:35
  Speaker 8: Trump second term. We are not just talking about Trump,
• 14:38
  Speaker 8: the person we were talking about Trump, the agenda and Trump,
• 14:40
  Speaker 8: the person is reprehensible, but Trump, the agenda is, is
• 14:43
  Speaker 8: just as reprehensible. And we cannot let, we can't talk
• 14:46
  Speaker 8: about the former without talking about the latter.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you think Trump's position on abortion is unpopular,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: wait till you meet his new position on contraception.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Which is, like I gave some examples in the Navigator,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: in a recent Navigator research poll, 74% of voters think
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: that access to birth control pills should be much easier.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: That includes 60, more than 60% of independents and more
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: than 50% of Republicans. And 80%, nearly 80% of voters
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: think that birth control pills should be available over the
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: counter without a prescription.
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And so this is.
• 15:12
  Speaker 8: It's like, it's one of the few things that Americans
• 15:15
  Speaker 8: agree on, regardless of where you live, live your party,
• 15:17
  Speaker 8: et cetera. It's pretty standard part of American culture and
• 15:21
  Speaker 8: American society now. And he is squarely in the minority
• 15:24
  Speaker 8: and wants to put policy federal policies in place to, uh,
• 15:29
  Speaker 8: to legislate this. So it's, it's a, it's a clear
• 15:31
  Speaker 8: win for Democrats. It's a clear win on the campaign side.
• 15:34
  Speaker 8: And the key is we can't, let it just be
• 15:38
  Speaker 8: one of, this is one of those pitches that we
• 15:39
  Speaker 8: have to keep, keep hitting over the course of the
• 15:41
  Speaker 8: next six months.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is, you know, one of the rules
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: in politics is you want to focus the voters' minds
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: on issues that unite your base and divide theirs. This
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: is a perfect example of that, right? You have just
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: this week, Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin vetoing a right to
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: contraception bill passed by the Democratic Legislature. We know that
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Senate Republicans have already blocked efforts to pass a law
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: to enshrine the right of contraception. We know that Justices
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Thomas and Alito have looked at and are revisiting the
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Griswold case, which guaranteed the right to contraception, the right
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: to privacy. And so like this is this is on
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: the table. And we talked about this in the podcast
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the other day. Trump will have a Supreme Court. What
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: do you think those next two justices are going to
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: feel about contraception that replaced Alito and Thomas? This is
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: very much in the margin. And I kind of wanted
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: to bring up the Nazi video and the contraception comments
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: in tandem because it does speak to this broader debate
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: within the democratic universe about what it is we talk about.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: And the Biden folks, they did talk about the contraception thing,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: but they made a choice to focus their energy on
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: The Nazi comment, not the contraception comment. It doesn't mean
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: that they won't run ads on the contraception comment down
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the line.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: It will come. It will be heard from again. Let's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: just put it like that.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: But I think it speaks to sort of this. Trump
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: is a target rich opportunity on a daily basis.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And it's like, what do we do?
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: How do you pick? What do we talk about? What's
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: your sort of take on that debate? How do you fall?
• 17:08
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 17:09
  Speaker 8: I think there's two things I think that are sort
• 17:12
  Speaker 8: of prerequisite issues to talk about.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: In this election.
• 17:16
  Speaker 8: And we already talked about the message, which I think
• 17:19
  Speaker 8: can overlay on all this. One is reproductive freedom. The
• 17:21
  Speaker 8: other is the cost of living. One is sort of
• 17:24
  Speaker 8: us on offense. One, honestly, is us a little bit
• 17:26
  Speaker 8: more on defense. But reproductive freedom is, in and of itself,
• 17:30
  Speaker 8: a winning issue.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: You just talked about all that.
• 17:32
  Speaker 8: But it also is a gateway to talk about what
• 17:34
  Speaker 8: comes next, right? And voters believe that. I think until Dobbs,
• 17:38
  Speaker 8: I'm not sure it was as persuasive. But now you
• 17:41
  Speaker 8: can very persuasively make the case to voters, they came
• 17:44
  Speaker 8: for your reproductive freedom, what's next? The freedom to marry,
• 17:48
  Speaker 8: the freedom to vote, the freedom to retire with dignity,
• 17:50
  Speaker 8: the freedom to use birth control. And that is a consequence,
• 17:55
  Speaker 8: a potential consequence of reelecting Donald Trump. So both for
• 17:58
  Speaker 8: the issue itself and what it allows us to talk about,
• 18:00
  Speaker 8: I think abortion rights and reproductive freedom have to be
• 18:03
  Speaker 8: core to our message. On the cost of living, harder issue, right?
• 18:07
  Speaker 8: We can't convince people that gas is cheap or what
• 18:10
  Speaker 8: have you. But I think it goes back to the
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: frame about who's going to fight for you and who's
• 18:14
  Speaker 8: going to care for you Joe Biden has done things
• 18:17
  Speaker 8: in his presidency, significant things, to lower the cost of
• 18:19
  Speaker 8: significant things for people. Inflation Reduction Act and everything that's
• 18:22
  Speaker 8: in there, we could go into it ad nauseum. There's
• 18:26
  Speaker 8: a lot of, there's a Christmas tree from which to choose,
• 18:27
  Speaker 8: but Joe Biden has tried and cares about you. And
• 18:31
  Speaker 8: what did Donald Trump do the first thing he did
• 18:33
  Speaker 8: when he went into the administration, economically speaking? Tax cuts
• 18:36
  Speaker 8: for his rich friends, right? And we're still bearing some
• 18:39
  Speaker 8: of the, or feeling some of the effects of that.
• 18:42
  Speaker 8: And so, Who is going to go in there and
• 18:45
  Speaker 8: actually put what a middle class, a lower middle class
• 18:47
  Speaker 8: family cares about at the center of their agenda? Joe Biden,
• 18:50
  Speaker 8: who's already shown he's going to do it, or Donald Trump,
• 18:52
  Speaker 8: who's already shown you what he's going to do. Look
• 18:53
  Speaker 8: out for himself and his rich friends. Those two issues,
• 18:56
  Speaker 8: I think, are if we can't make those cases, it's
• 18:59
  Speaker 8: not that the other stuff, democracy, climate, like everything matters.
• 19:03
  Speaker 8: But if we can't sort of make those two cases,
• 19:05
  Speaker 8: I think we are going to be in a really
• 19:06
  Speaker 8: tough spot. Last thing I'll say is, and I kind
• 19:08
  Speaker 8: of referenced this earlier, character cannot be the only thing.
• 19:13
  Speaker 8: We all think Donald Trump is a terrible person. He
• 19:15
  Speaker 8: is a terrible person. But voters this election, I think,
• 19:19
  Speaker 8: are particularly transactional, particularly looking at their bottom line because, frankly,
• 19:24
  Speaker 8: they have to, especially swing voters. And so it can't
• 19:27
  Speaker 8: just be that Trump is bad. It has to be
• 19:29
  Speaker 8: that what Trump will do is bad. And it is
• 19:32
  Speaker 8: hard for Democrats. It's hard for hardcore Democrats like myself
• 19:35
  Speaker 8: to ignore the reprehensible nature.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Of the person.
• 19:38
  Speaker 8: But we have to go deeper than that if we're
• 19:40
  Speaker 8: going to be successful in the election.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because a lot of, you know, it's very
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: clear that Donald Trump's mere presence on the public stage,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: like morally offensive.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, right?
• 19:51
  Speaker 11: As it should.
• 19:52
  Speaker 8: And probably everyone listening to this podcast.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And that comes through in how he thinks about him.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: The character thing is hard. Like, you know, there is
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: the sort of, I think, somewhat unfairly infamous ad from
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the Clinton campaign in 2016 of a little girl watching
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump on television that sort of became... Shorthand for
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: what not to do. Yeah, shorthand for why Clinton lost.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: That is giving one television ad way too much credit.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: But there was a sense that a lot of the
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: message was that Donald Trump is a terrible person. I mean,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: who also do terrible things, but it was, you know,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: he was just like such a shock to the political
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: system in terms of how often he lied. the things,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you know, his corruption and all of that, that, you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: people couldn't avoid talking about it. And Trump is actually,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I think, too, you know, in a pretty strategic way,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: made his lack of character an asset in this election,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: which is when he is making his, what is his most,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: and this is a sad statement on everything, his most
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: broadly persuasive message, it is, I'm an asshole, but I'm
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: going to be an asshole for you, right? You may
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: disagree with how I act, what I say, even what
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I believe, and that can go right or left, but
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: I am strong enough and tough enough and I'm not
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: going to give a shit about those other people, I'm
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: going to give a shit for you. And like that,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: like that works. And so then you have to turn
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: that around and say, how do we turn that part
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: of him against him, right? How do we make it
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: be about what he would do?
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Exactly right.
• 21:17
  Speaker 8: And I think there is a, there's a tendency to the,
• 21:21
  Speaker 8: to the point about swinging at pitches. We get so
• 21:25
  Speaker 8: rightly morally outraged that sometimes we don't make that second step.
• 21:28
  Speaker 8: It's like Trump is a racist. Trump is a misogynist.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: And yes, he is. And yes, he is.
• 21:33
  Speaker 8: But what will that mean for the, the mother in
• 21:36
  Speaker 8: suburban Phoenix who is struggling to pay her bills? And
• 21:39
  Speaker 8: that means that when he gets there, he's going to
• 21:41
  Speaker 8: do bad things like take away your, uh, you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 8: right to birth control or, or, um, take away your
• 21:46
  Speaker 8: right to marry or whatever.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: It might be.
• 21:48
  Speaker 8: And so making that second step critical and making sure
• 21:52
  Speaker 8: that we don't fall into the trap of, of, of
• 21:55
  Speaker 8: not doing that is obviously like the hardest thing to
• 21:58
  Speaker 8: do for political professionals and observers alike. But like it is,
• 22:02
  Speaker 8: I can't stress it enough. It is required to win
• 22:06
  Speaker 8: the election in my opinion, because swing voters, people who are,
• 22:09
  Speaker 8: you know, potentially not listening to this podcast, they need
• 22:13
  Speaker 8: the second step to, to decide to vote for Joe Biden.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: You know, in the list of things you, you mentioned
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: inflation and reproductive freedom as the big issues and cost
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: of living, et cetera. One issue that is central to
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: so much of how Democrats talk about this election, very
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: central to a lot of what the Biden campaign talks about,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: is democracy. I've been pretty skeptical that saving democracy is
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: going to be a good message for us. You see
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: all the polls that show that basically 4% of people
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: think the political system's working. So if we become the
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: defenders of democracy, we're becoming the defenders of the system.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: 96% of people think it's not working. However, I was
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: struck by a report in Bloomberg Businessweek this week where
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: reporter Josh Greene wrote that in focus groups, including some
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: run by friends of ours like David Binder, who worked
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: for Obama and is working for Biden now, and Sarah Longwell,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: who's been on this podcast before, have seen real fear
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: amongst persuadable voters that Donald Trump would try to stay
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: a third term and that that is moving people towards Biden.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Have you seen that in any of the research that
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: you look at?
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Not specifically.
• 23:11
  Speaker 8: I mean, I honestly haven't looked. It certainly isn't sort
• 23:15
  Speaker 8: of popping up on its own. I think I'm I
• 23:18
  Speaker 8: can be convinced that it would be a useful argument,
• 23:21
  Speaker 8: but I think it is not going to be as
• 23:23
  Speaker 8: potent as the arguments about, you know, cost of living,
• 23:27
  Speaker 8: about abortion rights and others. And it's not that, I
• 23:29
  Speaker 8: think democracy also is like another layer, right? It's on the,
• 23:33
  Speaker 8: what is Trump coming for next, you.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Know, list, right?
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Like there is a, there's a bigger beta. It's like,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: are we, is it, are we, are we framing this
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: conversation about freedom?
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Are we framing about democracy?
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:42
  Speaker 8: And I think freedom is, I mean, we saw this
• 23:43
  Speaker 8: in 2022 very explicitly. I think it's still, it's still
• 23:46
  Speaker 8: valid in 2024.
• 23:47
  Speaker 11: Yeah.
• 23:48
  Speaker 8: That freedom is also a word, A, and a concept,
• 23:53
  Speaker 8: I think, that is more accessible to voters than democracy.
• 23:57
  Speaker 8: And so the more we can talk about freedom and
• 23:59
  Speaker 8: the freedom to vote, the freedom to participate, however any
• 24:02
  Speaker 8: organization might want to lean into it, the better it'll be.
• 24:05
  Speaker 8: It's one more tool in the arsenal to talk about
• 24:08
  Speaker 8: what Trump will take away from you if he becomes
• 24:10
  Speaker 8: president again.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I was struck by this in part because on Tuesday's podcast,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Tommy and Favreau and I talked about Trump's NRA speech
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: and how the press really focused on Trump kind of
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: in almost in jest, throwing it like kind of trolling
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: the audience and the reporters about serving a third term
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: and getting the crowd to chant third term, um, which
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: is concerning in an NRA convention, but, um, And as
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: opposed to Trump saying he was going to repeal all
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: of Biden's gun safety laws.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: But I do.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: And so we kind of said, like, once again, everyone, Democrats,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the press are missing the big the thing that really matters.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: We're focusing. We're we're gravitating towards this shiny object.
• 24:51
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: But I can see.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: And this is sort of how you like how we
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: should think about messaging in any campaign is if the
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: message is Donald Trump only cares about power for himself.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: You can fit the third term thing under that into it.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. It's not.
• 25:06
  Speaker 8: And I do like what the president said in that
• 25:09
  Speaker 8: TikTok yesterday. He's only in it for himself. He's in
• 25:13
  Speaker 8: it for the power. I'm in it for you. I
• 25:14
  Speaker 8: care about you. That is a message. You're the master
• 25:18
  Speaker 8: of message, not me. But that is a message under
• 25:21
  Speaker 8: which you can talk about any number of issues.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: And I.
• 25:27
  Speaker 8: Kind of misframed this in my earlier answer to your question,
• 25:30
  Speaker 8: which is like, it's not the issue of abortion per se.
• 25:33
  Speaker 8: It's not the issue of the cost of living per
• 25:36
  Speaker 8: se that is going to convince voters. It's the feeling
• 25:38
  Speaker 8: that Joe Biden is going to do good things for those,
• 25:41
  Speaker 8: you know, with respect to those issues and Donald Trump
• 25:43
  Speaker 8: is going to do bad things. And so you need
• 25:44
  Speaker 8: an overarching message to fit things under. Same with democracy,
• 25:47
  Speaker 8: same with climate, same with any, pick your issue. You
• 25:50
  Speaker 8: can fit it into that frame and that means it's
• 25:51
  Speaker 8: a pretty good frame.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, moving on to Trump's Manhattan election interference trial.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, God, okay. Oh, here we go. Here we go.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: On Tuesday, the defense rested after calling just two witnesses.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: To the surprise of absolutely no one, Donald Trump was
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: not one of those witnesses.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Closing arguments will be next week, and then the jury
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: will get the case. John and I are going to
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: talk to Andrew Weissman on Friday's pod for all the
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: legal details about how the case has come in and
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: how it's going to proceed. But I want to talk
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: to you all about the politics. And over the weekend,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Ross Douthat of the New York Times had a particularly
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: trollish column that said Trump's trial is actually helping him.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: He wrote, and I quote, Even sinful demagogues can face
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: a politically motivated prosecution and stand to gain from the
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: appearance of legal persecution. And that appearance so far has
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: been this trial's political gift to Donald Trump. This was offered,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: of course, with absolutely no polling or doubted to support
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: his point. Disu, what is your response to this scorcher
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: of a hot take?
• 26:50
  Speaker 8: It is a classic of the genre, for sure, again,
• 26:53
  Speaker 8: of hot take-ism. But I do not agree that being
• 26:57
  Speaker 8: on criminal trial has helped somebody politically.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But, you know... I will be honest.
• 27:03
  Speaker 8: I don't necessarily agree that it has hurt him yet.
• 27:06
  Speaker 8: You know, in general, the more we're talking about Trump,
• 27:09
  Speaker 8: the more he's sort of out front on things, as
• 27:11
  Speaker 8: we talked about before, the more we're presenting a contrast
• 27:13
  Speaker 8: between Trump and Biden, I think the better. And so
• 27:15
  Speaker 8: to the extent that this is bringing him back to light,
• 27:18
  Speaker 8: I think that's on balance.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 27:20
  Speaker 8: It goes back to the, you know, woman in suburban Phoenix.
• 27:23
  Speaker 8: I talked about the substance of the trial, which like,
• 27:26
  Speaker 8: to be clear, I'm not really following it that closely.
• 27:28
  Speaker 8: Like I'm trying to consume the media like a normal person.
• 27:31
  Speaker 8: I see what I see, but I don't.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: You said that as you're sitting in on a political podcast.
• 27:35
  Speaker 8: Yeah, but, uh, but no, I'm not, I'm not like,
• 27:38
  Speaker 8: you know, watching cable news for the, like, you know,
• 27:41
  Speaker 8: the OJ trial style coverage that it, that it may
• 27:43
  Speaker 8: be given. Anyway, point is the, the woman in suburban
• 27:46
  Speaker 8: Phoenix who is struggling to pay her bills. Like this
• 27:49
  Speaker 8: is about hush money and adult film star, uh, you know, kickbacks.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: And does that have.
• 27:56
  Speaker 8: Anything to do with, you know, with, of voters' day-to-day life. No,
• 28:00
  Speaker 8: like the substance of the trial doesn't. And so I
• 28:02
  Speaker 8: can get why Democrats don't want to talk about it, right?
• 28:05
  Speaker 8: It's like, okay, do I really want to talk about
• 28:08
  Speaker 8: Stormy Daniels? Like, no, I don't want to necessarily talk.
• 28:10
  Speaker 8: That's not affecting people's life day-to-day. I think it's kind
• 28:13
  Speaker 8: of been a wash. It's been a bit of a
• 28:14
  Speaker 8: nothing burger politically, electorally so far. The verdict, that's a
• 28:20
  Speaker 8: different story. And, you know, we'll see what happens. I
• 28:22
  Speaker 8: think either, I am not, I will not predict what
• 28:26
  Speaker 8: at this point, what a conviction or acquittal or a
• 28:29
  Speaker 8: hung jury will do. But I do think that will
• 28:32
  Speaker 8: be a moment where people will have to talk about
• 28:35
  Speaker 8: this and actually have something specific to talk about. This
• 28:38
  Speaker 8: is trial machinations and salacious details and things that are
• 28:42
  Speaker 8: not moving swing voters in May of 2024.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: I understand intellectually all the things you just said. But
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: then there's another way of looking at that, which is
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: the former president of the United States, the person who
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: is right now at least a coin flip away from
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: returning to the White House, is on trial in the
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: media capital of the world for a crime that emanated
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: from an affair with an adult film star that could
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: theoretically have him be sentenced to prison in the next
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: three weeks. Like, why is this not the biggest story
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: in the country?
• 29:14
  Speaker 8: I mean, it is the biggest story in the country.
• 29:16
  Speaker 8: I think it's just not persuading people. Well, is it
• 29:18
  Speaker 8: the biggest.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Story in the country? Like, you know, there's a PBS
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: NewsHour poll which was that 55% of the country is
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: paying zero to little attention about this.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:26
  Speaker 8: It is the biggest political story right now for sure.
• 29:29
  Speaker 8: I think there are two reasons for that. One is
• 29:31
  Speaker 8: the things you talk about about the media environment. People,
• 29:34
  Speaker 8: it's easy to ignore things now. It is easy to
• 29:36
  Speaker 8: not passively find out about things anymore. I think that
• 29:40
  Speaker 8: is just the nature of the beast right now in
• 29:45
  Speaker 8: our political news economy. But I think the bigger thing
• 29:48
  Speaker 8: is opinions about Trump, I think I said this the
• 29:50
  Speaker 8: last time I was on this podcast, are pretty baked
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: in with most of the electorate. Like people think he's
• 29:56
  Speaker 8: a creep. Even the people who vote for him think
• 29:57
  Speaker 8: he's a creep. People can easily believe the allegations that
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: are being made in court about him. And I think,
• 30:03
  Speaker 8: you know, the hard thing that I've had to internalize,
• 30:06
  Speaker 8: especially over now, I started with the Clinton campaign in
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: January of 2016. So now it's been like eight years
• 30:14
  Speaker 8: that I've been fighting this guy. His superpower in some
• 30:17
  Speaker 8: ways is that he has such firm opinions that have
• 30:22
  Speaker 8: been established about him, not just from those eight years,
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: but from 10 years of The Apprentice and 20 years
• 30:26
  Speaker 8: of being.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: In Home Alone or whatever.
• 30:28
  Speaker 8: That getting people, you're not going to change people's opinions
• 30:32
  Speaker 8: about him. You have to get them to change their
• 30:33
  Speaker 8: opinion about what he might do for them, going back
• 30:35
  Speaker 8: to our previous conversation. So I think it's partially just
• 30:38
  Speaker 8: that it's easier to ignore things in 2024. I think
• 30:40
  Speaker 8: it's a lot about these facts are reinforcing what people
• 30:44
  Speaker 8: already believe about him and are not necessarily going to
• 30:48
  Speaker 8: affect their vote choice. I think a verdict very well could.
• 30:51
  Speaker 8: And you don't want to felon as your president. And
• 30:56
  Speaker 8: that's not a Democratic or a Republican statement, I don't think.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: So we'll see.
• 31:01
  Speaker 8: If it's hung, if he's acquitted, I think it could
• 31:04
  Speaker 8: swing the other way. But it's uncharted territory. That is
• 31:08
  Speaker 8: for sure for all of us.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Obviously, there's one pretty specific detailed reason why people are
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: paying less attention. It's not on TV.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:15
  Speaker 8: If it were OJ trial, you know, to bring up
• 31:19
  Speaker 8: a truly dated.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: People in our 40s know, but like the people in
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: our 20s are like, what?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: They saw the FX dramatization of it. You know, that's
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: even an interesting question I've been sort of wrestling with,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: the theoretical one about the media environment is, let's say
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: it was televised and it is live on CNN, MSNBC,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: and probably not Fox every day, right? And maybe on
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: big days, like the first day of the Cohen testimony,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Michael Cohen testimony, you know, the networks break in at,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know, 10 AM. I don't know what they're
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: breaking in from. Like, do even more people see that?
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Like the way people more see it is that it's
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: on video. So therefore there will be clips of it
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: on TikTok and Instagram. So people would see that, but
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: just the same people, like, and this is so much
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: of what I think about, which is sort of like
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: political earned media strategy. Now is we're all just talking
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to each other all the time. So it was just,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: we would just have more ways to watch it, the
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: same people.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: But I think you're right.
• 32:12
  Speaker 8: The video, you know, think about the George Floyd video or,
• 32:16
  Speaker 8: Rodney King back in the day or any number of things.
• 32:18
  Speaker 8: When you can catch things, video has a unique power
• 32:22
  Speaker 8: that audio does not and that drawings and graphics do not,
• 32:26
  Speaker 8: et cetera. So I do think it would provide both
• 32:30
  Speaker 8: grift for creators to do funny things on TikTok or
• 32:36
  Speaker 8: more content from which to draw other content, as it were.
• 32:38
  Speaker 8: But I don't think it changes the fundamental second point,
• 32:42
  Speaker 8: which is It's kind of saying things about Trump that
• 32:45
  Speaker 8: the people who like Trump like about him, which is gross.
• 32:48
  Speaker 8: And the people who don't like Trump don't like about him.
• 32:50
  Speaker 8: And the swing voters kind of know about him and
• 32:52
  Speaker 8: have baked into their opinions about him and are looking
• 32:55
  Speaker 8: for another reason to vote against him or vote for
• 32:57
  Speaker 8: Joe Biden.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: I'm a thousand percent with you on reproductive freedom, cost
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: of living. That is the whole thing. But one of
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama's communications rules is you have to talk about
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: the elephant in the room. Everyone knows the elephant's there.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So it's weird when you don't talk about it. And
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: once again, Donald Trump is on trial. And polls have shown,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: media polls I've looked at, show that when you describe
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: the charges in this case, majorities of people, including a
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: not insignificant swath of 2020 and current Trump voters, find
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: it pretty concerning. Most people do not know what those
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: charges are. To the extent they have any sense of
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: why he's on trial, it's kind of vague. Stormy Daniels
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: they're vaguely aware of. They don't really know about the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: election interference part. they know it's not classified documents and
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: violent insurrection, but like, and then you.
• 33:46
  Speaker 8: See, which by the way, I will just, as an aside, say,
• 33:48
  Speaker 8: I think those trials will and would be more concerning
• 33:53
  Speaker 8: to voters.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: But we're talking about theoretical exercise right now.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: But anyway, and this is another challenge we have as Democrats.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: It's just, there's such asymmetry in the messaging around this,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: which is Trump is out every day in every forum and,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Mike Johnson is showing up in New York. Yeah, and
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: he's bringing these fucking yahoos and the red ties in
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to be there. And then you have the right-wing media apparatus,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: just everything from Fox News to the local conservative person
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: that is on midday Iowa radio when people are driving around,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: defining this in a way. And there's no one saying
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: the opposite.
• 34:31
  Speaker 8: Well, you know what I think that is? The uncertainty
• 34:33
  Speaker 8: about the outcome. Because you go out there and talk
• 34:37
  Speaker 8: about this for two months or however long, how long
• 34:39
  Speaker 8: has the trial been? Feels like two months. Talk about
• 34:42
  Speaker 8: how terrible it is, et cetera, et cetera. And then
• 34:43
  Speaker 8: a jury of his peers acquits him and you look
• 34:46
  Speaker 8: like a doofus. So, and I feel like the, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 8: the Republicans who are there can just say witch hunt,
• 34:53
  Speaker 8: witch hunt, witch hunt. And if he gets convicted, they'll
• 34:55
  Speaker 8: just keep saying witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. But
• 34:56
  Speaker 8: I think- And if he's acquitted or hung jury, then
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: it's like.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Proven innocence for a told you is proven, right?
• 35:03
  Speaker 8: So I think a lot of it just basically has
• 35:05
  Speaker 8: to do with the fact that if you can't be
• 35:06
  Speaker 8: sure of the outcome, it's really hard to go out
• 35:08
  Speaker 8: there and crow about the facts, et cetera, and then
• 35:11
  Speaker 8: have the legal system let them go. So again, verdict
• 35:14
  Speaker 8: comes down. I think everything changes. I think that's a real,
• 35:17
  Speaker 8: real big elephant that you absolutely can't ignore. But I
• 35:21
  Speaker 8: get why, and I generally support the idea that while
• 35:26
  Speaker 8: the legal process is playing out, it's a high risk
• 35:29
  Speaker 8: situation to talk about this in public if you're a
• 35:32
  Speaker 8: campaign or what have you. And there are plenty of
• 35:35
  Speaker 8: other things like Nazi videos and contraception bans that are
• 35:41
  Speaker 8: probably a more effective use of the limited airspace you
• 35:43
  Speaker 8: get to talk about politics.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Do you think if he is convicted that Democrats should
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: talk about it?
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I do.
• 35:53
  Speaker 8: I mean, I think That becomes an elephant that is
• 35:56
  Speaker 8: like so crazy to ignore that it just seems ridiculous
• 36:01
  Speaker 8: at some level. Do I think it's going to be
• 36:03
  Speaker 8: the only thing we talk about?
• 36:05
  Speaker 7: No.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Everything I said before still holds.
• 36:07
  Speaker 8: But I think having a convicted felon in the White
• 36:10
  Speaker 8: House is actually probably in the range of arguments that
• 36:15
  Speaker 8: we can make. it probably ranges towards the top. Maybe
• 36:19
  Speaker 8: not the top, but it probably ranges towards the top.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: One of my theories of this election is that we're, like, yes,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the campaign needs an overarching narrative about why Biden and
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: why not Trump, right? And probably a little more why
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: not Trump than why Biden is going to be more effective.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: But the way the media ecosystem has changed, and even
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the way advertising has changed, right, the way you have
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: to be much more, other than the stuff you're doing
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: in basically football games where you see reach audiences, it's
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: very targeted. You're reaching a small number of people is
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: that You can have a much more targeted micromessaging. We
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: know there are a group of Nikki Haley voters who
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: disagree with Joe Biden on a whole bunch of stuff,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: don't really like Donald Trump, and are concerned about the
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: idea of a felon as president, right? And so you
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: can target those people, but that may not be what
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: is in the ad that runs during the Georgia-Michigan game
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: in October, right?
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's a Georgia-Michigan game, but you get
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: two big battlegrounds.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: That's my point, yes.
• 37:16
  Speaker 8: I think you're generally– yeah. The reason why I'm hesitating
• 37:19
  Speaker 8: is because I actually think the medicine is kind of
• 37:21
  Speaker 8: the same for a lot of people right now.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:23
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 37:24
  Speaker 8: And so the macro message and the micro message oddly align.
• 37:28
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 37:28
  Speaker 8: But there are probably some– there are definitely some things
• 37:31
  Speaker 8: that work better with some communities than others. The interesting
• 37:34
  Speaker 8: thing though is that abortion and the cost of living.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Is broadly popular, yeah. Cross-tab any poll you see.
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Speaker 8: However you want to 25 to 34 year old women
• 37:46
  Speaker 8: with red hair. Like I guarantee you cost of living
• 37:49
  Speaker 8: is the top issue.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 37:50
  Speaker 8: So, um, when that, when that is the case, you can't,
• 37:53
  Speaker 8: those are the prerequisites, but maybe not the only thing
• 37:55
  Speaker 8: that you can use to persuade folks.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: One quick thing before we go to break. I am
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: thrilled to announce that John is back with season four
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: of The Wilderness. Yes. We've been, Democrats have been in
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: the wilderness for a long ass time now.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: I think I'm on episode one.
• 38:08
  Speaker 11: That's right.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: The Wilderness is.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: John's deep dive into who the undecided voters are, where
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: they are, and how we can win them over. John
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: talks to all of our favorite political experts and strategists
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: and organizers about what's working and what isn't. It's a
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: truly great podcast. It is mandatory listening for people who
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: are working in politics, who are, even if you're just
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: somebody trying to convince your Biden's skeptical cousin not to
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: vote for RFK Jr., this podcast will help you figure
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: that out. Listen to the trailer in the Pod Save
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: America feed and make sure to subscribe so you don't
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: miss the first two episodes, which drop on May 26th.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: When we come back, Brian Wallach, Sandra Abravaya, and Katie Couric.
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: We have some very special guests here with us today.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Brian Wallach and Sandra Abravaya are two of our friends
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: and former colleagues from the Obama years. They met in
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: a campaign trail, got engaged while working in the White House.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: And in 2017, right after the birth of their second daughter,
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Brian was diagnosed with ALS at the age of 36.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: They have since become two of the most inspiring and
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: effective advocates for people living with ALS and are the
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: subjects of the new Amazon documentary, for Love and Life
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: No Ordinary Campaign which comes out on May 28th and
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: was produced by friend of the pod Katie Couric who's
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: also here with us today Katie Bryant Sandra, welcome to
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Pod Save America and thanks for being here.
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: Yay, friend.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having us.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: It's so good to see you guys. It's so good
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: to see you guys. So Brian, it's been seven years
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: since you were diagnosed with ALS. You were initially given
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: six months to live. Can you talk about the mental
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: and emotional journey that brought you from that day to
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: the moment that the two of you decided to turn
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: your personal battle with ALS into a grassroots movement called
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: I Am ALS?
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: Well, at the beginning, I ignored my diagnosis. And we
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: didn't tell anyone other than our family. And after Christmas,
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: I turned to Sandra. And I wanted to do something
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: to help the fight.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: And I asked her if.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: And I asked her if I could start an ALS nonprofit.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: And her response? You're turning to me? I don't want
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: to swear on air.
• 41:01
  Speaker 9: Go ahead.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Well, fuck no, was my answer.
• 41:05
  Speaker 7: I mean, really?
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: Yes, we just had this terminal diagnosis, and Brian wanted
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: to start a whole new endeavor.
• 41:11
  Speaker 10: And so what did you do?
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: So what did you make me do?
• 41:17
  Speaker 10: Brian's asking.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: What I made Brian do was I said, in true
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: political form, go on a listening and learning tour.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: There you go. Where did you listen and learn?
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: All over the country. Brian flew literally all over the
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: country for six months with this diagnosis, which was wild
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: because we had a newborn and a two-year-old and this
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: diagnosis and everything. He ended up coming back, and I
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: did not request this, but he did present me with
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: a 40-page PowerPoint. Again, to be clear, I did not
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: request it, but it was very informative and convincing. And
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: what is that? Oh, yes, and it only had text,
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: no images.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. Because he's an attorney.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: The real lawyer, I was just about to say.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: Real lawyer. There were also footnotes, I think.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh.
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: And after that, I was all in. Sandra was all in. Yeah.
• 42:23
  Speaker 10: And so then we.
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: Reached out to our network to help us start IMLS.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: You guys have achieved an enormous amount in the last
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: several years. Sandra, how did you decide what you guys
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: were going to focus on and come up with a
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: strategy that got you to this point?
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, some of it was in the PowerPoint. And
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: part of that entailed Brian and I observing what kind
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: of advocacy was being done on the Hill. And of course,
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: You know, before Brian and I met, we worked in
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: the Senate together.
• 43:04
  Speaker 10: And I, as we all.
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: Had experienced, we knew what good advocacy looked like. We
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: knew that it was about meaningful relationships with members, with
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: chiefs of staff, legislative directors. And what we observed happening
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: was these really cursory meetings with, you know, a bunch
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: of advocates one day a year. And it just wasn't
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: a sustained systemic approach. And so... When we saw that
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: reality and we knew what was possible, we decided that
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: one way in which we could have a real impact
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: was to create this coalition of patients and caregivers who
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: would drive forward the movement and not be treated as tokens.
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: And they would tell their stories and they would develop
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: meaningful relationships with the House and the Senate.
• 43:46
  Speaker 10: And we knew that we could do it.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: We knew how to do it. We knew the people
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: to do it with and we knew it wasn't being done.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: Katie, what drew you to their story and what made
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: you decide to become an executive producer on this project?
• 44:01
  Speaker 9: Well, I was reading an article about profiling Brian and
• 44:06
  Speaker 9: Sandra in Politico written by Sam Stein, who I'd crossed
• 44:10
  Speaker 9: paths with when he was at Huffington Post. And I
• 44:14
  Speaker 9: was so captivated and moved by their story and so inspired. Honestly,
• 44:19
  Speaker 9: it was a pretty long piece. And I remember just
• 44:23
  Speaker 9: reading it and not being able to put my phone down.
• 44:26
  Speaker 9: And I saw in the body of the piece that
• 44:29
  Speaker 9: they were developing or kind of working on a documentary.
• 44:34
  Speaker 9: And I thought, oh, gosh, I really hope that they have.
• 44:38
  Speaker 9: Some kind of video of the journey they've been on
• 44:41
  Speaker 9: because I thought it would be really difficult to reverse
• 44:44
  Speaker 9: engineer a documentary after at that point in Brian's disease.
• 44:50
  Speaker 9: So I reached out to Sam Stein on Twitter. I
• 44:53
  Speaker 9: DM'd him.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: As one does.
• 45:01
  Speaker 9: And I said, Sam, that was such a beautiful piece. Congratulations.
• 45:07
  Speaker 9: And I would love to meet Brian and Sandra. And
• 45:11
  Speaker 9: he said, great. So a few days later, we had connected.
• 45:15
  Speaker 9: We set up a Zoom. It was during the pandemic.
• 45:18
  Speaker 9: And I remember being in my kitchen and we just
• 45:23
  Speaker 9: Brian and Sandra were very, they were excited to talk
• 45:25
  Speaker 9: to me. I was so excited to talk to them.
• 45:27
  Speaker 9: And what can I say? It was love at first sight.
• 45:30
  Speaker 9: Love at first Zoom. And I just said, listen, I
• 45:36
  Speaker 9: want to help in any way I can. You know,
• 45:38
  Speaker 9: I want to be useful to you all. So I
• 45:41
  Speaker 9: ended up, you know, helping with the documentary, giving some notes.
• 45:45
  Speaker 9: You know, I think because I've done so much cancer
• 45:48
  Speaker 9: advocacy work, John, I'm really committed gotten good at synthesizing
• 45:53
  Speaker 9: and distilling complicated medical concepts. And I think I was
• 45:58
  Speaker 9: maybe helpful in giving some feedback on that. I helped
• 46:02
  Speaker 9: with some finishing funds. And I basically just got to
• 46:07
  Speaker 9: know the whole group and said, I would like.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: To be your vessel.
• 46:11
  Speaker 9: Do what you will with me. And so I think
• 46:16
  Speaker 9: we've established developed a deep friendship. Some might say a throuple. Yes, yes.
• 46:23
  Speaker 9: We talk about being a throuple all the time because
• 46:25
  Speaker 9: we think it's so funny. And I'm just so, I
• 46:31
  Speaker 9: feel so honored to be a part of this project
• 46:35
  Speaker 9: and to help spread the word because it's not just
• 46:38
  Speaker 9: about ALS. It's, well, it's first and foremost, I think,
• 46:42
  Speaker 9: a love story, but it's also about the power of
• 46:46
  Speaker 9: people when they're when they join forces and are galvanized
• 46:52
  Speaker 9: and care about an issue, that you could actually get
• 46:57
  Speaker 9: real change accomplished. And, you know, I think because of
• 47:01
  Speaker 9: Brian and Sandra's political acumen, they were at a distinct advantage.
• 47:06
  Speaker 9: But I do think it shows the power in numbers.
• 47:10
  Speaker 9: And I think it is a real template for other
• 47:15
  Speaker 9: so-called rare diseases, which as The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, which couldn't,
• 47:22
  Speaker 9: this film couldn't have been done without them. They have
• 47:24
  Speaker 9: a whole program called Rare is One. And rare diseases
• 47:27
  Speaker 9: are not really rare. What is the quote that Jeff
• 47:30
  Speaker 9: always gives? There are like 10,000 of them.
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, 10,000 rare diseases.
• 47:33
  Speaker 9: That affect 300 million people.
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: Is that worldwide? Which is basically every American family is
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: affected by some rare disease.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 47:40
  Speaker 9: Yeah. So anyway, I just, I love them.
• 47:43
  Speaker 10: And I'm so grateful.
• 47:45
  Speaker 9: I'm so happy that you're giving this film attention because
• 47:49
  Speaker 9: I think it really will inspire a ton of people.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited to see it. What was it like
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: for you guys to open up your home and your
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: lives to this documentary? Was it hard? Was it cathartic?
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: Was it both?
• 48:06
  Speaker 10: For me, it.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: Was easy.
• 48:12
  Speaker 9: Brian's not shy.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I was a lawyer.
• 48:18
  Speaker 10: And I had a career.
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: Where I was always doing public speaking. So for me,
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: when Chris, our director, raised the idea, I said, hell yes.
• 48:42
  Speaker 10: I said, hell yes.
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: But I had to convince Sandra again.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: Very persuasive.
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.
• 48:56
  Speaker 10: I mean, it's hard.
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: But I think that as we started to do press
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: around the work and the impact we were having in
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: the early days, and then Brian has this social media presence.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: And I was really struck by how much people were
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: responding to it. And I thought, wow. These are mediums
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: where we can really drive change. So it's not only
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: in the advocacy work, but in communicating about this disease
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: in a that there is the chance that we could
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: be among the first generation of survivors with this disease.
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: And so we think it's so important to impart that hope,
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: because if you don't have that as the backdrop, then
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: there's only inaction, right? You need that hope to drive
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: forward and motivate a coalition. And I think through all
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: of these mediums, Brian Social and the press, and then
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: now really in an incredible way on Amazon Prime with
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: over 200 million viewers to be able to drive forward
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: that message that this is a disease where there is
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: hope and possibility and what it looks like for someone
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: to drive forward in the face of these odds and
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: to really accomplish remarkable things.
• 50:12
  Speaker 11: Yeah.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: And you guys have two daughters, six and eight. How
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: have they handled all of this? How are they handling it?
• 50:25
  Speaker 10: Well, they haven't seen the movie. But we.
• 50:35
  Speaker 10: But we have a... Oh, but we have told them.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, all about ALS.
• 50:49
  Speaker 10: And how we're trying to turn it.
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: From fatal to chronic. So I think that they know
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: how hard we are fighting.
• 51:04
  Speaker 11: And they have been amazing.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: And they have been amazing. They, along with Sandra, are
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: my reason for being here.
• 51:37
  Speaker 9: You know, I wanted to mention, you know, Chris Burke
• 51:40
  Speaker 9: did an amazing job. He's not here, but he and
• 51:44
  Speaker 9: Brian went to college together. They went to Yale, my
• 51:48
  Speaker 9: safety school. And basically, when Brian was diagnosed, Chris was
• 51:54
  Speaker 9: one of many people. You know, Brian was a huge
• 51:58
  Speaker 9: leader at Yale. Everyone thought he would run for president
• 52:01
  Speaker 9: one day. You know, he was that guy. And so
• 52:05
  Speaker 9: many people reached out and Chris said, what can I do?
• 52:07
  Speaker 9: And Chris did the initial film for IMALS to kick
• 52:12
  Speaker 9: off the nonprofit. And then he said, there's more here.
• 52:16
  Speaker 9: So he followed Brian and Sandra around for three years.
• 52:20
  Speaker 9: And the film is so intimate. I think, you know,
• 52:25
  Speaker 9: there are so many scenes where, you know, Sandra and
• 52:29
  Speaker 9: Brian are preparing for their Capitol Hill testimony. That's one
• 52:32
  Speaker 9: of my favorite scenes. They're in a hotel room late
• 52:35
  Speaker 9: at night, kind of going over what they're going to say.
• 52:38
  Speaker 9: But there are so many very intimate moments. And Chris
• 52:41
  Speaker 9: did a beautiful job, I think, of being more than
• 52:45
  Speaker 9: a fly on the wall, but because of his relationship
• 52:48
  Speaker 9: with Brian and Sondra, which I'm sure grew during this
• 52:51
  Speaker 9: period of time, he was able to capture these intensely
• 52:55
  Speaker 9: personal moments, which I think really make the film as
• 53:02
  Speaker 9: moving and poignant and meaningful as it is. And I just,
• 53:07
  Speaker 9: you know, Chris works so hard, and I just wanted
• 53:10
  Speaker 9: to give him a shout out.
• 53:11
  Speaker 10: Yes, yes, he's amazing.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: So what's next for IMLS? Like what for people who
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: want to help, want to contribute? And what are you
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: guys hoping for in the in the months to come
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: in terms of research, treatments, legislation, funding? Like what's what's next?
• 53:39
  Speaker 10: What's that this week? I am ALS.
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: They're having the first ever summit in D.C. And they're
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: bringing together. Yeah, groups from all sorts of different but
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: related neurodegenerative diseases.
• 54:07
  Speaker 6: So.
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: Brian and I have so much admiration for so many
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: things that Katie has done, including, and importantly, Stand Up
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: To Cancer. And so how Katie led this coalition and
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: really lifted all boats, that is so much in the
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: spirit of what Brian and I see as possible. with
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: Alzheimer's and ALS and Parkinson's and Huntington's, all of these
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: diseases are really a part of this family of neurodegenerative diseases.
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: And so at this moment, IMALS is really spearheading along
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: with others, this coalition of neuro diseases to bring attention
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: to them, to drive forward with, you know, more collaboration
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: and coordination.
• 54:47
  Speaker 9: Because there, you know, there are a lot of areas
• 54:49
  Speaker 9: where this, these diseases overlap. And if they could kind
• 54:54
  Speaker 9: of focus on collaboration instead of competition and really kind
• 54:58
  Speaker 9: of figure out where the Venn diagram exists, then hopefully
• 55:04
  Speaker 9: that'll move science forward faster because I think that's one
• 55:09
  Speaker 9: of the main goals. And also just to use what
• 55:13
  Speaker 9: Brian and Sandra have done as a template or a
• 55:16
  Speaker 9: blueprint for other people who have rare diseases or any
• 55:20
  Speaker 9: kind of cause they believe in that there is actually
• 55:23
  Speaker 9: a roadmap to figuring out how you can be an
• 55:27
  Speaker 9: effective advocate and how you can actually implement and inspire
• 55:32
  Speaker 9: change as these two have done so beautifully, not only
• 55:35
  Speaker 9: with changes in legislation, like getting social security disability benefits to,
• 55:41
  Speaker 9: go into to happen immediately. You know, it used to
• 55:45
  Speaker 9: be you had to wait six months. And for someone
• 55:47
  Speaker 9: with ALS, that can be an eternity. They got that change.
• 55:51
  Speaker 9: They got so much more funding. I think it's been
• 55:54
  Speaker 9: raised to a billion dollars for ALS research when previously
• 55:58
  Speaker 9: it had been what, Sandra?
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in the low hundreds. And yeah, so
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: we have really And that's part.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: Of the legislation that President Biden signed, which is also
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: amazing that you guys got legislation through this Congress in
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: this or in 2021 in this political climate is just incredible.
• 56:14
  Speaker 9: They've worked with the FDA to make certain drugs available
• 56:17
  Speaker 9: for people. And so, I mean, honestly, it's an absolutely
• 56:22
  Speaker 9: Sisyphean task. And they were able to not only push
• 56:25
  Speaker 9: the boulder up the hill.
• 56:27
  Speaker 10: But get it to.
• 56:28
  Speaker 9: Roll on the other side. I mean, it's just phenomenal
• 56:31
  Speaker 9: what they've been able to achieve.
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: What were some of the lessons and advice you gave
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: Sandra and Brian as being someone who became a very
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: public advocate for a family member's terminal illness?
• 56:44
  Speaker 9: I'd like to think that I gave them advice, but
• 56:46
  Speaker 9: they didn't need any advice from me, John, honestly. They
• 56:50
  Speaker 9: were so focused, so myopically focused, and so.
• 56:56
  Speaker 9: You know, appropriately covering every aspect of this disease, getting people,
• 57:01
  Speaker 9: you know, galvanizing a community. You know, patient advocacy is
• 57:05
  Speaker 9: so important to, you know, the greasy wheel. Wait, the
• 57:09
  Speaker 9: squeaky wheel does really get the grease. It's been a
• 57:12
  Speaker 9: long day.
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 57:13
  Speaker 9: And, you know, so they were able to do that.
• 57:17
  Speaker 9: And members of Congress, as you know, they pay attention
• 57:20
  Speaker 9: to to, as Sandra says, the RPs, the real people, right?
• 57:26
  Speaker 9: And Sandra said she was in charge of RPs, and
• 57:29
  Speaker 9: then she became one, you know? And so they focused
• 57:32
  Speaker 9: on the community. They educated themselves about the science. I mean,
• 57:36
  Speaker 9: they're very smart people, as you know. And then they
• 57:39
  Speaker 9: figured out, like, legislatively, they navigated the bureaucracy and and
• 57:45
  Speaker 9: they were relentless in their advocacy. Even if only a
• 57:50
  Speaker 9: couple of committee members showed up at a hearing, which
• 57:52
  Speaker 9: really pissed me off, honestly. I was like, these are
• 57:55
  Speaker 9: my tax dollars at work. Where the fuck is everyone?
• 57:59
  Speaker 9: But they went there, and we recorded it. Well, Chris did.
• 58:05
  Speaker 9: And so you actually see them working through the system.
• 58:09
  Speaker 9: So As much as I'd like to say I gave
• 58:11
  Speaker 9: them advice, I really just tried to give them my
• 58:13
  Speaker 9: support and encouragement.
• 58:15
  Speaker 11: That's great.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: Brian, I follow you on Twitter where you are incredibly active.
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: I can relate.
• 58:21
  Speaker 9: It's X now.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: It's X now. Yeah, I can't do that. You're also
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: incredibly positive and profound, even as you're honest about how
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: hard this is. Why is it important for you to
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: stay so positive and hopeful for so many other people?
• 58:44
  Speaker 10: I believe that we have a chance to change the world.
• 58:53
  Speaker 10: For people. Living with all sorts of neurodegenerative diseases. And
• 59:04
  Speaker 10: I also.
• 59:05
  Speaker 11: I have been sick for a while.
• 59:10
  Speaker 10: I also have to stay positive because so much in
• 59:16
  Speaker 10: my world is changing.
• 59:18
  Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.
• 59:19
  Speaker 10: So much in my world is changing. And so I.
• 59:31
  Speaker 10: So I root myself in hope. And we have to.
• 59:35
  Speaker 10: We have to.
• 59:37
  Speaker 5: We have to.
• 59:39
  Speaker 10: What's that word?
• 59:41
  Speaker 11: We have to. B, A, N, banners. Oh, two banners
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 11: behind your desk.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: One of them says, joy is an act of resistance.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: And the other one says, just good trouble.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 10: Right?
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: You know who got those for us?
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 10: Brent Colburn.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, another one of our Obama friends.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: Another Obama alum.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 9: I think one thing, too, just watching, you know, Brian
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 9: and Sandra and the way they communicate, the way they
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 9: love each other, the way they support each other. I
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 9: think this film is very much a love story. And
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 9: I think a lot of people wonder, what would I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 9: do if someone I loved was dealing with a really tough,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 9: debilitating illness like this? And I think the two of
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 9: them are just a beautiful example of unconditional love and
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 9: support and For that reason alone, I think just watching them,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 9: you can model the kind of love and relationship that
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 9: you want to have in your life by watching them. Yeah.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, thank you guys for being here. Thank you
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: for doing this. Like, congrats on all that you've achieved.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: And I'm just so amazed and in awe. of both
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: of you as I follow you guys from afar. And
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: now I feel so lucky that I get to finally
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: see you in person because I haven't in so many years.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: The documentary is for Love and Life, No Ordinary Campaign.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: It comes out May 28th on Amazon Prime. So everyone
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: check it out and good luck, guys. Keep up the fight.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 8: Thank you so much.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 10: Thank you, John.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: Thanks, Katie. Thank you.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Adisu, thanks for joining us.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Good to be here again. Thanks to Brian Wall, Alexandra Abavai,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: and Katie Couric. John and I will be back with
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: a new podcast on Friday morning.
• 1:01:56
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• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo.
• 1:02:21
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• 1:02:25
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• 1:02:29
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• 1:02:32
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• 1:02:38
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• 1:02:41
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