Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S4 E2 Cult Crimes Pt 1

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S4 E2 Cult Crimes Pt 1 · True Crime and Wine Time

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Hi everybody, I am Harry, half of your fabulous co hosting team for
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True Crime and Wine Time, and here with me is the other fabulous half.
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Hello, it's me JT. And I think that makes a whole.
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I don't math. I don't do math either. Um. What is math
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good for? UM? I absolutely nothing to say it again, I don't
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know. I've got a I've got a calculator in my pocket. My teacher
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always told me I'd never have one in my pocket, but look at me
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now, to teach, I didn't remember the big, old fancy watches that
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everybody thought was the bomb, that you could have they're like Texas atment.
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Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Now they're on our phones and in our
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pocket. I always uh, when I when I was in the classroom,
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I'd always tell my students that, you know, and this is a this
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is a true fact that the computing power that we have on our phones is
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greater than the computing power that was put in the Space Shuttle to go to
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the moon. Um so killy, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh wow,
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I believe so so I think somebody got but I'm pretty sure that's true.
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You know. That's the thing though, don't let us know. Don't
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let us know. They will let us know. Well, I am very
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happy to be back. Um, as you know, I have been in
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training this week to learn how to do incident command for disaster and large events.
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And sitting in a room with a bunch of fire chiefs, true state
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troopers, some firefighters, some EMTs and things. They all think I'm a
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little weird. When I told him about the podcast and they're like, oh,
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so you really like true crime. I'm like yeah, and one day,
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hopefully I'm gonna find a dead body when I'm out hiking. Oh we
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might not want to all just sturt to kind of look at me like that
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took a left turn real. I was like, I want to be a
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part of helping in disasters, helping the community, help things get resolved.
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But I still wouldn't mind fun into dead body because then I would get to
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be a witness, I could get involved, I could follow the case.
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Listen, you are in the right state to find a dead body somewhere.
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That is true. Sorry Texas, Sorry Texas. And I know that's not
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everybody, but I will say that the ones that make me feel that way
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as the loudest. So you know, I would say Texas or Florida,
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Oh yeah, that's definitely true. And I think also Wisconsin's becoming the next
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Florida. But we'll see, we'll see remains to be seen, right,
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So, but it was just, you know, interesting to have them all
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look at me and kind of like, what is wrong with this chick?
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And why is she here? And who thought she would be a good director
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of a community emergency response team? Me? It was like, Hey,
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I didn't just be me, just be me? Yeah, So what's going
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on with you? And I know you have been a prolific tweeter and social
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media stud late late things have been going, well, yeah, did you
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quit your day job? No? Are you just not? So I hate
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I still hate Elon, but no, I'm still working a day job.
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In fact, it's exhausting because it almost feels like two full time jobs.
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But you know, I've I've combined live trial tweeting, so tweeting about trials
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that are broadcast on Law and Crime in Court tv UM, and then I've
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also started really kind of pushing along the lines of more justice based things um,
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finding out that I'm a lot more passionate about it than I thought,
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and you're passionate. I had to turn notifications off just so I was like,
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oh, yeah, I know think, yeah, it happens. I
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love it. So tell me about your covering very interesting justice case and I'm
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gonna let you share it. And I'll be honest, I'm getting most of
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my information from your social media post and your tweets, just because I've been
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so busy ben and training this week, things gone on, wrapping up day
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job and stuff. You're kind of my information source and the person that has
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the same passion as me about things like that. So I'm going to go
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on record right now and say if I repeat something that JT tweets and the
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fact is wrong at him, not me. So I would be embarrassed,
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but I also, I mean, I am kind of embarrassed that I get
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embarrassed by that kind of stuff. But it doesn't matter. I'm working with
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a group of folks that are wonderful and two of them actually live in that
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area, and so there's a lot of stuff. When I get things or
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when I see things, there's a lot of fact checking that goes on between
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me and them, and we talk things like that because a lot and in
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fact, if it's not even fact laden, if it's a response that I
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have to something like today there was the press conference from Police Department of Glenn
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County. My response, I actually took a screenshot and sent it to them
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and said, does this sound good? Because I don't really want to put
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out rhetoric like my rhetoric can be inflammatory to a degree, but I don't
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want it to be so inflammatory that it's not taken seriously. So there's a
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balance there. No, Well, so for example, when I say,
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like, facts here, I was in the training with all these trippers and
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stuff, we come back and the trainer goes, hey shall see the news
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One you're on break about Nashville. They think it was a teenager who did
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the shooting. Well, it turns out she's like a twenty eight year old.
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So I don't think necessarily anybody gives the wrong facts that at that point
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in time, with the information that was available and perceptions, that was the
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fact at the time. And that's something we're learning in incident command. We
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can only be as good as the information that we're given, and that information
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is ever changing in situations like that. Yeah, and that's something that you
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know, I take a look at. I think some people will find will
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be offended by the fact that somebody fact checks, and if you do it
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right, it's not offensive. So like when that teen thing came out,
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I had posted something about like some basics about what had happened, and I
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had mentioned that they were a teenager, and obviously that changed because information changes,
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and so you know, underneath it, I put an update and said
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they're actually twenty eight years old, and people had missed the update, so
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they had they were letting me know, and every time, you know,
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every time I could be like, well, look, I put the update
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and I did point that out, but I also said thank you because I
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would rather you make sure that my informations right if you do it right and
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nicely. Absolutely, as long as you don't come and say, hey,
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douche bag, it wasn't a teenager. Get your ship right right? You
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know? Yeah? I mean the trolls are real. I've had some people
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will follow me where I'm just like, I don't know if I want Maga
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Princess following me really, But that being said, and before everybody jumps down
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my throat, I give everybody a chance. And if something crazy happens,
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then block any block bock bock. But if not, then that's fine.
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It's it's at least you're getting information from a source that tries to fact jack.
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I am part of a group here in Texas. Uh huh, mother's
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against Greg Abbott. Look, that's great, brilliant. It is actually group
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we had during the elections. We put a sign in our yard because in
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our neighborhood you're allowed to for a certain amount of time. I actually was
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able to say, hey, I am part of a MACA group. I
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love that. That's so great. So just putting that out there because if
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it's somebody from Texas, it could be our Maga group. Yeah, we'll
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keep that. I'll keep that in mind. I'll keep that in mind.
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It's the only MC guy could love. So tell me about Trent. So
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this is happening in Brunswick, Georgia, which is in Glenn County, and
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it just so happens that Glenn County is the same place where Ahmad Aubrey was
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killed. I think I'm saying his name right. It ended up being the
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three guys and was a hate crime and all that stuff happening right Well,
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this is the same county that took seventy six days to arrest those guys,
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and then it's the same county that, as far as I have heard,
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they are trying to pull and remove the hate crime charge away from those guys.
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And they also have had a series of other things that have happened that
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are very questionable. They can't keep a police captain for more than like two
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years at a time. It's not great, and they've just kind of been
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I don't know. It's one of those towns. It's a lot like the
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Alex Burdo town where it's lawyers and police and things like that. And I'm
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not saying that it's everybody because I hate putting, thanking Blake and statements.
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I'm sure there there's a problem and it runs wide and deep. Probably,
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yeah, it does. And so you know what had happened was a nineteen
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year old Trent or Trent and Layer comp could be Camp, It's South,
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could be Camp. I'm saying it like it's German, which it is.
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Basically, he he just wanted to be accepted. It didn't matter who it
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was. He wanted some friends, and these seventeen year olds, sixteen or
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seventeen year old were taking advantage of this. There were some reports that came
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out that said, you know, they said that he was on the spectrum.
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However, that being said, you know, it eventually was fixed to
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say no, that's not necessarily true. There's no fact or proof of that.
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Plus it might be that Trent doesn't want to acknowledge that or or doesn't
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want to you know, just say that he is and that's fine. There's
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I know that there are cases like that. So you know that obviously was
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stopped. However, you know, he was very he wanted to be he
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wanted to be accepted, he wanted friends, he wanted to be with a
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group, and it just so happened that he was picked up and he went
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to this party. And this party was at in a kid's house in the
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basement or bottom floor, and I think there were parents there, but it
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does. Basically what happened was he was tortured. I mean he was tortured,
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tortured and humiliated. Um. They they forced him to down an excessive
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amount of alcohol and other substances it was reported possibly mushrooms. And then there
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were pictures that were taken and video that was taken on Snapchat and passed around
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and sent to other people, and well, you know, here's the thing
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about these kids is they apparently thought Snapchat was not forever because it quote goes
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away that ha ha. So now ethane goes away that you put on an
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app or the internet exactly and captured somewhere. One of the pictures is is
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Trent unconscious, bound to a chair covered in spray paint. There's four kids
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around him giving him the middle finger. They they urinated on him, There
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were feces, There was feces involved. There was a conversation about the possibility
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of them forcing him to drink battery acid. There's a lot of stuff going
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on here, right, and so at some point three of these kids hopped
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in the jeep, put him in the back and took him to the hospital.
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And they went in and said, hey, we've got a friend that
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drank a lot and is on anti to presents. Of course, he's covered
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in spray paint and stuff, so how are you anyway, So they came
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out, they grabbed him, and the kids were like, well, can
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we go? And then they offered, and they did leave their name and
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their numbers, so they have the names and numbers. They have some security
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footage from the hospital. They've got these these videos and things like that,
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and so you know, it was initially reported as a haze. Excuse me,
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it was initially reported as a hazing, which is what Trent's dad had
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called it when they called the police. However, that being said, it
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is not a hazing. It does not fall within hazing. However, if
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you're a dad, you're gonna say whatever. You know, he's in a
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state. You know, you may not have a word to put to it.
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I mean, there is no word. I mean, what do you
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say, Like if my son was like that, I don't know what I
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would say. Is he attack? I mean bully? I mean what word
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would I mean, I don't even know what you would use, right,
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And so, you know, this happened last last Tuesday, this event,
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this whole thing happened Tuesday Day, and I don't think much got done until
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the public outcry on Saturday or Sunday. Really, I just I don't I
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don't think much happened. You know, the Instant report was horrible. I
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read it. I mean, just everything that was described in there is what
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might have happened or did happen that that report was terrible and certainly warranted further
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investigation. Apparently they've they've put out you know, they won't say how many
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warrants, but warrants to search, and you know, they've done some interviews
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and stuff. But there have been absolutely no arrests whatsoever, at least the
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three kids that dropped him off. There's there are things that need to happen,
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and the reason why they haven't happened is because this is an assumption on
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my part. However, I feel pretty safe in saying this. The parents
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of these children are affluent and they're really well connected. There is a possibility
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that one of kids parents is actually in the police force. So there's a
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a lot happening with that, and and so a lot of stuff like if
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you if you ever see me online, Like at this point, the phrase
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that I came up with randomly late at night one night, it was affluence
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is not innocence. I saw that, Yeah, and I mean I'm not
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you know, some people might take that as you know, you can't be
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affluent. I hate people who are affluent, and that's not the case.
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That's not it at all. What I'm saying is that if you're affluent,
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Um, oh, I thought I changed it. I thought I would tell
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you so for those of you who laughing and he are going to see this
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video on jay Trum, we just had a little snapped from the boop.
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It's fine, just ignored. Um, not a biggie. It's a big
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town. Um. So I'm not I'm not against affluence. I mean,
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by all means be successful, you know, whatever successful means to you.
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However, if you decide to use that to get yourself out of trouble or
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get your kids out of trouble in a way, that's totally unethical. It's
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just not the way it is. Like, just because you have money and
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you're connected does not mean you're innocent, That's what I mean by that,
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And you're right. I mean, plus, your wealth should have nothing to
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do with whether or not you're held accountable for your actions exactly, And I
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think we're super sensitive to that right now, at least the folks that have
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been, you know, trial watching and things because of the whole Alex Murdoch
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trial. I mean, he was quote unquote affluent and well connected obviously,
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and he got away with a lot of stuff for a very very long time.
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We don't even know about half of it, I think, but oh,
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you know, so we're super sensitive about it. But you know,
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so when this stuff came out, the police were like, we're looking into
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it. We can't really take these videos and photos at face value. In
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fact, they might be from a previous incident. And I'm like, hold
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on, whoa, who boa boa, whoa? What you're telling me,
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what you think you're telling me, is that we can't take this at face
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value because this might not have been this time. But what I'm hearing is,
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oh, there was more than once, and you know about it,
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and so yeah, apparently this happened two times prior, not to this degree.
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But like, I mean, it doesn't matter, like, doesn't matter.
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This is torture. To me, this is torture. I mean,
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I don't know what the definition in Georgia of attempted murder is, but I
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feel like this is attempted murder. I would whether it was on purpose or
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not, you know, maybe involuntary, but there's involuntary attempted to anything.
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So so there's a lot that's happening. And you know the two folks,
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well, really it's five of us. Oddly enough, you will appreciate this.
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I ended up being in contact with some folks that are called the wine
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Moms. Oh, I need to meet them and become friends with them.
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They're wonderful and they they're basically they were in somebody thought they were insulting the
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four or a group of them by calling them wine mom, saying you don't
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know anything about true crime, what or whatever, and they decided to own
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it. Um, and they were like, well that's what we are now.
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And so if you look at my bio and Twitter, you'll see that
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it says wine mom because they have accepted no, it's whatever. Um.
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Okay, I am going to go right now to Twitter because I need to
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find the wine mom and you're a wine mom. So that's even I already
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know a wine mom. I don't even know, honestly, I don't know
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if I can leave that in. I don't know if they want anybody to
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know about that, to be honest, it's sas wine mom. Yeah,
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So that's something that the group that I'm working with is very focused on getting
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justice for for Trent. That's the bottom line, and we would like it
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to be just like he deserves, speedy. We want it done right.
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But we also know that there's a bunch of stuff out there and that there
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are some folks like the neighbors that haven't been interviewed like that we know of,
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you know. And today's press conference didn't do them any favors because it
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was a lot of the same They basically reiterated with the DA put out in
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a press release. They were very evasive of some questions and a lot of
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it I think has to do with I mean, a lot of it is
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they can only say so much, and I get that, but there is
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also a lot of it that I think they feel the pressure from whoever these
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kids parents are and they're not saying much. So the other issue is that
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there's a local paper that's been calling, you know, initially called it as
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an overdose, and then they called it an incident, and they're not calling
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it what it is. And it just so happens that one of the kids
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parents might actually work at that paper. So so yeah, I'm going to
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just go out. I have kids and grandkids and I have you know,
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they call me, you know, Mama Bear for kids that are not biologically
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mine, but that my kids friends and stuff, and I have to tell
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you, and they all would say, yeah, Mama bears right, you
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do something like that to somebody else. I'm still gonna love you. I'm
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not gonna stop loving you, but I damn sure I'm not going to protect
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you. Whatever the consequences are, You're gonna pull up your big boy,
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big girl panties and deal with it. Because you made a dumbass decision.
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You're gonna suffer the non dumb ass consequences. Yeah, And so those parents
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are not doing their kids any favor. You're basically saying it's okay. Yeah,
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And some of these kids have had problems in the past and there's been
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no consequences, and so you know, they get that invincible feeling that's like
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the Affluenza guy Ethan Pouch from Dallas. Yeah, and so like what what
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what I really struggled to understand is the whole, the whole excuse of boys
21:06
will be boys. And if I ever hear that from anybody, I just
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want to smack him in the face because I'm gonna be honest with you.
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Boys will be boys works for like pull my finger or smell my fart or
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what I was going to say, right, that's the only thing. Or
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when they bring you a frog and to ask you to kiss it mom,
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or they stick it in the bathtub because I want to scare you. But
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that's not boys. That is. I don't think I can say what I
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want to say. I mean, that's just everybody can make bad decisions and
21:38
make shitty decisions, but if you do it more than once kind of starts
21:44
making you a shitty person. And yeah, and so I agree, and
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so like was it last night? I think it was last night? There
21:52
was a there was a gathering. It was a vigil. It was actually
21:55
organized by Ahmad Arbrey's aunt, I believe, and she man, she is
22:02
a hell of a public speaker, no joke. So I received a bunch
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of the videos from somebody who was there, and I put them all together
22:08
and put it in a video package that you know, we tried to get
22:12
out before the evening news and then they are going to also be meeting.
22:18
This will come out after, but they would be meeting again on Saturday at
22:23
at the pier in order to continue that protest. And something that before we
22:27
move on, something that I really want people to know is that there's a
22:30
lot of stuff circulating. Just make sure that the facts are right, number
22:33
one. And by the time this comes out, we might discover different facts
22:38
or that what I said was wrong, but this is what we know at
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the time. And you know, there's there's a very fine line that you
22:48
walk between harassing the people that were that have already been named as possible suspects
22:55
and their parents or just doing the right thing, which is letting things take
22:59
their course. And I think while I wish law enforcement would go faster,
23:03
we cannot be doxing people. We can't be you know, do violence to
23:07
these people. We can't. What we can do is we can boycott their
23:12
businesses. We can we can do a lot of stuff because if you know
23:17
them, you know in that town, and you know what they do,
23:18
and you know what they're connected with. Don't go there anymore, right,
23:22
Um, And so you know there are other ways of doing things that are
23:27
a little more non violent. Right. I already feel like the social media
23:33
outcry is what has kind of pushed this just in general. Um. By
23:38
no, you know, I am just a part of that, and I'm
23:41
really happy that people are really taking notice and and really trying to to to
23:51
get people to understand what's going on down there. Um. And I think
23:53
so anyone that's positives to social media. I mean, there's a lot of
23:57
things about social media. It's really bad, but yeah, I do like
24:03
that it can bring awareness to things, educate people, and it can also
24:08
help people to do something in a positive way if they do it, you
24:15
know, go about it the right way, you know, like setting up
24:18
vigils, peaceful protests, you know, things like that. Absolutely, I
24:22
think it's good for that, yeah for sure. And yeah, so as
24:26
long as things are done right, it's awesome to be able to push out
24:30
information to people in real time. The important thing for people to understand is
24:34
that real time means that it's that information at that moment. And like you've
24:40
mentioned, information is a constant. It's constantly changing and developing and maturing and
24:45
evolving. So you know, always keep that in mind that when people like
24:49
me are putting out and putting information out at the moment and as things go,
24:56
you know, there's a there's a level of grace that's needed there because
25:00
as long as we're doing it right and updating right, then there you go
25:03
right well, And I think everyone in this world, even me, needs
25:07
to work on it, and I try really hard. We all need to
25:10
give people more grace. It's true me too, just because we don't know
25:15
what's going on people. I mean, we just need to have more grace
25:19
and and there. Of course, you know, I'm very being very pushy,
25:23
and I'm being a little you know, down on law enforcement over there.
25:27
It primarily has to do with their history and kind of how this is
25:30
just repeating itself. I also know that there's a lot of things that we
25:36
don't get told, Like there's a lot in my head, I'm very mixed
25:38
emotions about a lot of this. I just know that he deserves the justice
25:45
and you know that, you know, he should get for what happened to
25:48
him now, right, I totally neglected to say that for a couple of
25:52
days he was in the ICU. Now he's been out of the AICU for
25:56
about a day, so it looks like he's recovering. You know. When
25:59
he rived there, he was literally at sixpreaths a minute. Yeah, and
26:04
so they were sixpressed a minute away from a murder charge, is what they
26:07
were. So they lucked out on that that note. Trend's a pretty strong
26:12
kid, so um, you know, and I would be a blessing for
26:18
them, because I mean it it could be. I mean hopefully the family,
26:26
the kids, everyone maybe will be like, Okay, wait a minute,
26:30
I did this. I need to own it. Yeah, and now
26:34
I need to handle it better. All we can hope for. But no,
26:38
I'm glad that he's out and doing better. And I appreciate you doing
26:44
that and sharing the news because I would not even know about it if I
26:49
hadn't a senior tweets there. There are a lot of people that are that
26:55
are on this this train trying to push it forward, and I'm great solve
26:59
them. Yeah, I'm very grateful for them. And um, you know
27:04
this is something also that you know, a week ago, I didn't know
27:07
about um, but once I heard about it. You know, I couldn't
27:11
not say something. Let your passion fire. Yeah, it really did.
27:17
Um. So there's been a lot of people that have come out to talk
27:19
and comment on stuff, and I've become you know, we we formed at
27:23
least an acquaintanceship, a social media acquaintanceship, whatever that is, and um,
27:27
this has been great. So I call it social friends. Yeah,
27:32
pretty much, social friends, that's what it is, um, because you
27:34
can't really say smfs because that's really awkward as that just was a little odd
27:42
there, but that's okay. But well I am a little odd sitting here.
27:48
I haven't opened my wine today, but it's a micute little thing just
27:52
because I'm gonna have to make some noises. It's just like really a tight
27:56
twister. I can't get it open. I'm like, I may have to
28:03
call the handsome hobby in here so kind, but I'll chump ahead and say,
28:17
look, see my cubes light up and they change colors. They do.
28:23
That's awesome. And then when you take them out, they go off
28:30
and most of everybody can't see it. But you have a lovely, lovely
28:33
new paint color in your room. I do so for those that you know,
28:38
follow me on social or have the pleasure of knowing me. Some people
28:42
say, oh, your favorite color is pink. No, my favorite color
28:47
is not pink. I am pink, I am body pink. I I
28:55
believe in pink. I believe in the power it brings. You know,
28:59
it's just a great color. So no, it's not my favorite color.
29:03
I am just pink. I really think my blood is pink. Like I
29:07
even have a pink keyboard. I love that. I just love your entire
29:12
office everything. So it's shimmery, y'all. It's shimmery pink paint. And
29:18
when the sun hits it, I will do a picture and put it up
29:22
on one of the socials. But for our Patreon members, we've reopened Patreon,
29:27
we will be putting the videos on there so you too can enjoy my
29:32
bright pink office. I notice it was gray before. I'm happier spending as
29:38
much time in here. Now it's brightened up the whole room. It's I
29:42
don't know, it's just I don't know if it's just because pink is me,
29:45
but I really feel just like brighter and happier. No things like that.
29:49
I mean, we all know that when you put on you know,
29:52
clothes that you know, you dress for the occasion or higher than the occasion,
29:56
you carry yourself differently. I think the same goes for Holmes, you
30:00
know. And of course I say that in a very dark room, right,
30:04
But I also kind of like that whole Batman miss But if you like
30:08
the Batman thing, then it works for you. But yeah, and there's
30:12
a reason why my acoustic tiles are purple and black. You know, well
30:17
my heart pink and black in the podcast booths, which maybe coming back,
30:21
but I only wish the ice cubes were pink because they don't have pink ones.
30:29
Oh but that's okay. Well, you know what, though it works,
30:33
I like it. It works. I do have a question. I
30:37
have not had time to look, but I saw a quick headline what is
30:42
going on? And I always say his name wrong, so forgive me add
30:48
non Syed a non sed. All I saw was the head the headline.
30:55
Yeah, I'll get a little reversed it. Yeah, I'll explain it is
31:00
from how I understand it, And that does not mean that I understand it
31:03
correctly. No, I just I don't have any info. But setting the
31:07
headline, so I was really you'd have a little bit of info. Yeah,
31:11
and I'm conflicted about it too. I have mixed emotions too. So
31:15
basically, they did reverse the decision, and a lot of people read that
31:19
and were like, what the hell, Like, you can't just reverse the
31:22
decision now, It doesn't make it any better. But they reverse the decision
31:26
on a technicality, and the technically being that a certain hearing that he went
31:30
through before he was given, you know, they reversed his sentence. The
31:34
Hayman Lee's family was supposed to be given enough time to be there at the
31:41
hearing, and they were not given enough notice and not enough time to attend
31:45
the hearing, and because of that they rescinded or reversed it and said,
31:51
you have to have that hearing again. Now, whether that's going to have
31:53
a difference or make a difference, or if it's just going to end up
31:56
being like it sucks that it's red tape, but also you want to do
32:00
right. Also, I believe in giving victims a voice if that is part
32:01
of that case that that here, would it have changed the outcome because they
32:07
didn't get to speak at that I don't think it's on my list after you
32:12
know, recording tonight to you know, get on my tablet and look,
32:15
because I just saw the headline and I was like, what U there?
32:21
People are on either side. This is obviously a very polarizing situation in a
32:24
very polarizing case. However, I think there's one thing we can agree upon
32:29
that is a mind f you know, that is literally a mind Yeah,
32:34
just in terms of like being free and then being back. Did they put
32:38
him back back? But I have to check that I have. So that's
32:45
what I'm really concerned about, because the trauma to him in out, in,
32:52
out and out. Because yes or no, here we go. Okay,
32:59
I does add no, On does not have to return to prison for
33:01
now. The court's order to reinstate his conviction and sentence does not go into
33:06
effect for sixty days. That doesn't really say whether he actually has to or
33:09
not, but not for sixty days. And we all know how justice moves
33:14
slow. So I don't know when that hearing to be rescheduled. Um.
33:17
But this is really hard, I mean, you know, and not from
33:22
a PR side. He was already on an uphill battle, um being you
33:27
know, having that decision reversed after what was it ten plus years he was
33:30
in prison twenty three years, was it twenty three? Can there's DNA evidence
33:38
it's not him. I mean they haven't tested or it's not him. It's
33:43
right so much that wasn't done so and I mean, I agree they need
33:46
to do it right, But I also believe if somebody being there and they're
33:52
not allowed to speak, and if it can't affect the outcome, is it
33:57
really a technicality? Well, and that's the part that I don't know,
34:00
because if I'm invited to go see, you know, just to be there
34:07
at a hearing or something, but I don't get a voice, I don't
34:08
get to say anything. I don't affect the outcome. Just because I didn't
34:14
get invited doesn't mean whatever the outcome was should be change. But I'm going
34:20
to table that and say, I'm going to have to read it and do
34:22
some research. Yeah, I figure there's a couple of podcasts, so we
34:30
know who followed that case very well, and I'm sure they're going to be
34:34
putting out some updates and I'll have to go and look at that. But
34:37
I was just shocked seeing it as a headline. And I've made a commitment
34:44
to myself and I don't know if it's a good mental health commitment or a
34:46
bad one. But I try to wake up, set my alarm thirty minutes
34:52
earlier, and before I get out of the hammock or bed, depending on
34:59
where I sleep at night, I look at the news, yeah, and
35:04
read the articles and then I don't look at news again until the end of
35:08
my day. And the reason why because I found myself so involved in certain
35:16
things that it was getting in the way of doing my job and things like
35:22
that. So I'm trying that you did the opposite of what I did say,
35:25
and you did the opposite. You just jumped all in. Oh,
35:30
I sure did, But you know what, And that's how I got entertained
35:35
by watching the Gwyneth Paltrow trials. So oh, Joe even, I mean,
35:46
the things she says, the things he says. I'm like, is
35:51
this a reality TV show? It is the whitest trial I have ever been
35:55
heard of. I mean, like I said, Owens, who is Paltrow's
36:04
attorney, said how has this affected you talking to Terry Sanderson, the plaintiff,
36:07
And he said, well, I can't ski anymore, and you know,
36:10
there were other things that he said, but he said a lot of
36:14
shit, and Owens totally decimated him today, which was day seven. If
36:20
this comes you know when for this one comes out. So day seven on
36:22
the cross he decimated him. And I haven't seen news tonight, nothing since
36:28
this morning, so I'm curious to see. And I will say that that
36:34
mental health thing will change a little bit because the company I worked for here
36:39
in Austin, because I still also work for the company in Finland, they
36:43
let go the entire recruiting team, so I laid off all of my recruiting
36:46
team last week. The very upside of that story is I can now spend
36:52
more time in the news and watching those things for the next couple of months
36:59
till Finland ramps back up. But I kind of excited. I will say
37:05
this. UM. I was not into trials until I hopped into one channel
37:09
and it's kind of like a live view, like they're watching and then you're
37:14
watching, and there's a community and it's a positive community, which is awesome.
37:17
And the channel is by Recovery Addict is what it's called the channel?
37:23
And where's the channel as YouTube? And he actually he just crossed ten thousand
37:30
subscribers today, which was awesome to be a part of UM. He is
37:34
a fantastic guy, and he is a guy that doesn't talk over the trial.
37:37
He will make small comments, he will acknowledge other comments in the chat,
37:42
but he waits until breaks to talk about things. And that's what I
37:45
like because that lets me ingest the material without having to hear commentary the entire
37:50
time. And it's the only live channel that I've really stuck with. It's
37:54
called recovery channel. Recovery addict him. Let me make sure that that's his
38:01
entire Okay, how about at me with it? Yes, I will.
38:07
I want to make sure The last live trial I watched, the entire entire
38:14
trial of H was O. J. Simpson. And the reason it it
38:22
did me in for watching live trials just because it was a ship show,
38:30
which we all know it was. It was, but it was one thing
38:36
I hate, Like you say, when I see recaps or I see other
38:37
people who do live, I can't hear what's going on because all I've been
38:40
hearing is their thoughts, and I don't ever get to have thoughts on my
38:45
own, and I find myself being a sheep following them because all I heard
38:51
was there a thought. So there's my thought, and that's what I really
38:53
like is because he lets it happen and he acknowledges people in the chat by
39:00
popping them up on the feed. So he'll click on the comment, the
39:02
comment will pop up, and so that will kind of help like explain kind
39:08
of how he's feeling without him having to say anything, etc. So that's
39:13
kind of really nice. And it's a smaller community, and I know it's
39:15
at ten thousand, but it's usually around eight to twelve hundred people that watch,
39:22
and I don't know. It's just really good. And I really like
39:25
good people and nice people and caring people that do great things, and he's
39:30
one of them. M and yeah, so yeah. And he's also on
39:35
Twitter at Recovery Edict two because apparently the first one was taken. So well,
39:42
I know, I went ahead and sorry, I went ahead, jumped
39:46
and poured my wine. I'm drinking bread and butter rose. Never had it.
39:52
I have to say, I'm liking it. But I like bread and
39:55
butter pickles, so I thought bread and butter rose. I was kind of
40:00
curious to see because it's pink and it's my bread and butter. There you
40:07
go. Is it good? It is? It's it's pretty dark, good
40:10
pretty darn good. What are you drinking today? Victory Sour Monkey Triple IPA?
40:20
No, I'm sorry, it's not an IPA. It's a sour triple.
40:22
It's a beer. I am drinking a beer. It's tart. Um.
40:27
What does sour triple mean? Um? And if you were asking Mike,
40:32
he could tell you. Will you send me a message let me know
40:38
what sour triple means? Right? Um? What I can tell you is
40:43
a triple is a type of beer. What does it mean? I don't
40:45
know, but it's tarts and that's what I like about it, is that
40:47
you got that kind of It's not you'll know tot uh, but it's one
40:57
of my favorites. Um. Well, we all could be tart sometimes,
41:01
right, Um, But it's really good. I really like Victory Brewing.
41:06
Um they're they're out of Downington, Pennsylvania. Um, but they're it's it's
41:12
a really good beer. I just enjoy it. And I know it's not
41:15
wine, but I haven't gotten any in the mail, so I know.
41:19
I'm like, come on mine as should I be there? Well? But
41:22
I do like beer occasionally. Um. It just makes me so full.
41:28
I can have one beer and that's it. It just I feel like I
41:32
just swell like a great diet. It's like um because there was this place
41:38
Copper Copper Tank, that used to be down in deep Ellham and Dallas,
41:44
and they had a Raspberry Ale. The only beer that I've ever been able
41:50
to drink three or four of and not feel like I just ate ten Big
41:55
Max and just be miserable. I've never found anything close to it. So
42:00
that's my problem with beer, something about it. I've had someone tell me
42:04
maybe you have that thing like not selly act, but intolerance to all the
42:10
wheat, the barley and something, because I literally feel like I just ate
42:15
ten Big Max. It's uh, see what you need is you just need
42:21
what I have, which is a little more space. You need a little
42:22
more. So yeah, I'm already on my second one because that's I've just
42:35
where I'm at. Norm have had one. So why don't you tell us
42:39
what our topic we're covering today is? Ah, Yes, one of us,
42:45
one of us. One of us. We're talking about cults today.
42:51
I am excited. And as you don't, I changed which coult I was
43:00
covering because of the clock I did. So we got out of training early
43:07
today. We because our trainer had something to do, and after sitting there
43:12
with the troopers and everybody talking, I changed with case. So I knew
43:16
the case a whole lot, and it's one of those cases that there's so
43:22
much out there you could do an entire podcast on it. So kept a
43:27
lot of it. But I'm really excited because it reinvigorated me just to remember
43:35
the craziness about it. That's that's exciting to me, because I'm excited to
43:38
hear you talk about that, and everybody else should be too. You don't
43:42
know what it is yet, but you should be excited. And then my
43:45
case, without giving out the title, is this is a cult that I
43:47
really hadn't heard of before, and so this is it's very interesting to me,
43:53
and we get into some of the stuff that they do. But also
43:55
there was it's buck wild, so we'll get there. That is exciting,
44:02
And I guess I should say this episode contains graphic content, a lot adults
44:07
language, and most likely is not suitable for all listeners. Surprise, just
44:15
putting out there for you now. Since they're talking about cult crimes, I
44:22
tiptoed around doing some research on another potential cult, but it was just so
44:28
bizarre. Do you remember the Mark Kilroy case is the UT student killed in
44:36
Mexico over spring break back in the eighties. It turned out to be a
44:43
Satanic cult. It's a religious thing, and they found all of these bodies
44:47
and stuff buried because they were sacrificing them. And what made me spawn that
44:53
thought is the thing that happened where the ladies were going across the border to
44:58
get surgery, got kidnapped, got killed. And it kind of made me
45:05
start thinking about that because every time anyone here in Texas says Mark Kilroy,
45:10
you just think of the good looking college boy who got killed on spring break
45:16
and Mattam Morris. Well, when you dive into it, there was a
45:21
whole lot of other people killed. It was a Satanic cult, and it's
45:24
one that I've put on the list that someday I'm going to have to do
45:30
a lot of research and cover. Just didn't have the time to do it
45:34
for this one. But it's very interesting because I'll have to try to learn
45:39
how to pronounce because I felt Spanish three years in a row. The Spanish
45:45
teacher told me, he goes, just give it up. You're pretty well.
45:52
I can't help you because I took seven years of German and I don't
45:55
remember remember that shit either, So I can't roll my rs. I can't
46:02
do it. So oh well, but so my case, my new case
46:10
is, I'm not going to tell you bomb. I want to thank you
46:22
for listening to True Crime and Wine Time, and if you enjoy our podcast,
46:27
it would mean the world to me in a handsome hubby if you would
46:30
go to Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and give us
46:34
a review five stars in one sentence. It only takes a minute and means
46:39
the world to us and helps keep that wine flowing. I'm going to just
46:52
sit here for five minutes and let people try to figure out what it is.
46:55
What do you think? You have one good guess? Oh my good
47:01
guess. So now thinking about doing this case, I know a lot of
47:07
people say religions, all religions are a type of cult, and you know,
47:14
I thought about it, and that can be true, I guess to
47:20
some degree. But just because you believe in something that other people believe in
47:25
or you have the same values, does not make it a cult. No.
47:31
So I think it'll be interesting diving into this because it was about twenty
47:38
five years ago that had happened here in the great state of Texas. Did
47:45
I do my math right? No, I think it was. I think
47:52
it was thirty years ago. I think today's Yeah, it's thirty. Is
47:54
it thirty? That means I'm forty. So it happened in nineteen ninety three,
48:02
so it's thirty years ago. It means I'm forty. I need to
48:08
accept that that I'm not thirty five. You are always twenty one, always
48:15
twenty one. Thank you. You look better than twenty one years So you're
48:20
doing fine. And Terry, you're doing fine. It's just because I've learned
48:23
hydrate hydrate, drink more water than wine. I don't like that part,
48:30
but all right, drink more water than one. So the Branch Davidians were
48:37
in and everybody laughs when I say this apocalyptic because it's the only time I
48:44
will say it, right, because once I have a couple more glasses of
48:45
wine, apocalyptic in me will not do well. But it was a new
48:53
religious movement, so it was founded in nineteen fifty five Benjamin Rodin. But
49:01
the Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist was established in nineteen thirty five by a Victor,
49:14
I mean his Hulgarian immigrant does that work? Yes, yes, call
49:20
him Victor. So until I did my research, I did not know about
49:27
all of the name changes, the takeovers, the different breakoffs of it.
49:32
And I never knew it was part and some of it started from the Seventh
49:37
Day Adventist. So that was kind of shocking. It's cutthroat, like I
49:45
mean ever since. Like I mean, it's happened earlier than that, but
49:47
Martin Luther nailing the stuff to the door, you know what I mean,
49:51
Like if they don't agree, they're gonna branch off. And a lot of
49:54
times when they branch off, it's just like it's a it's almost a cash
49:59
grab for a lot of I'm not saying it was for him, but yet,
50:02
right, I mean, I just it was. So it was interesting
50:07
to read and do research on all of that. So that Victor was a
50:12
Bulgarian immigrant and he was a Seven Day Adventist, so it was interesting to
50:19
see that within these religious groups. Oh great, JT. You have disbelief,
50:24
I'm gonna let you preach that. Then you start preaching it and you
50:29
get your own little followers. So and that's what happened, and he goes
50:34
to them and he says, Okay, we need to reform this. This
50:37
isn't good, This isn't good, this isn't good. And they said,
50:42
yeah, no, we're not doing that. You know what's funny, it
50:45
sounds a lot like Twitter, kind of does I post things? People follow
50:52
me? And then Elon comes in and says no, no, no,
50:54
and everybody says, f you, Elan, that's what happened. That's true.
51:00
I didn't think about that. So they broke off and they found their
51:05
own group that later became known as the Davidians. And you will find these
51:12
people were not creative with their naming conventions. It's almost like, um,
51:20
who's the oh the boxer, he has George Foreman. All his kids are
51:24
named George Foreman. Right, They're all named George. All the boys are
51:29
named George as no unique, so you're gonna see a lot of that.
51:34
So anyway, Victor moved his Davidians to Waco, Texas. Back then,
51:40
it was not called oh my gosh, Waco Waco as it is currently today
51:47
because you just can't get past it. But they built this community after this
51:52
past couple of weeks, it's definitely that. But we'll move on from that.
51:57
Yes, it's called the Amount Carmel Centaur. And is it Carmel Carmel.
52:05
Well, I can say this. There was a church in Newport News
52:07
where I where I grew up, called Mount Carmel, and so I'm guessing
52:12
it was a Catholic church. Carmel. It's not caramel, there's not.
52:16
Yeah, well I say caramel, but it's as far as I know,
52:22
it's Mount Carmel. So it's odd. You know, I'm gonna say,
52:25
wherever you live, call it whatever you want, but it's like the little
52:30
squares of Carmel, caramel whatever. Anyway, right, So he took off
52:37
ran it. They were you know, we'll call that. Well, then
52:38
he died and his wife took over. So she just she steps in and
52:47
you know, it takes suffer. But didn't last very long because Benjamin Rawdon
52:52
proclaimed that he received a message from God, and he wrote letters to his
53:00
fellow Davidians about these messages, and he signed the letters the Branch, which
53:07
is what he believed the new name Jesus took ah. I didn't know any
53:17
of that part. It's so fascinating how many times God talks to somebody.
53:23
It really benefits them. It does, it does nobody else. But so
53:30
those who believed him went off with him. They broke off and they became
53:36
the branch Davidians Seventh Day Adventists. So they just threw in the branch in
53:43
front of it. Oh, it's like new Coke exactly. That'd like nobody
53:52
liked you. So yep. So what got even more interesting? Missus Holtiff
54:01
sold the original property, you know, she took over everything, but they
54:07
moved it to Elk, Texas, which is it's only about thirteen miles outside
54:12
a Waco. Called it the new Mount Carmel Center. Just put the word
54:19
new, kind of like New Coke. We now have the new Mount Carmel
54:22
Center. I do not have an analogy for how little their creativity flows.
54:34
But now that we have Google Maps, you know, you just type in
54:37
like Mount Carmel Center and it pops up too. How do you know if
54:42
you go to the old one or the new one? Good question. I
54:46
mean, luckily they're like thirteen fourteen miles apart, but still I'm like,
54:51
cauld you do it. So anyway, her group failed, and it was
54:57
very convoluted as to why it ailed. But basically she said all of this
55:02
is going to happen this date. Well it didn't happen, so everybody said,
55:08
well, we don't believe you anymore now. Mind you, she only
55:12
got it because her husband died, right, sure? Yeah, but so
55:19
well, the thing that was interesting she sold the property to Roden because he
55:23
had that separate branch. He, his wife and his son took over the
55:29
new Mount Carmel. They begin just calling it Mount Carmel dropped center and dropped
55:36
new, and all the marketing people are like, what the hell, guys,
55:39
pick one? But Caliber Brochure say, we can't do this anymore.
55:45
Could you just stop? But when he died, his wife stepped in and
55:51
took over. So I'm just like I was raised Catholic. Granted the pope
56:00
doesn't have a wife, but if he did, I don't think she would
56:02
automatically become the pope. No, what are your qualifications just because you were
56:09
married? Because I mean, I'm married to handsome hobby and he drops dead,
56:14
I can't take over his job. I'm not qualified. Well yeah,
56:17
and I mean for summer reason. In Catholicism, you have to have dangly
56:22
bits in order to me that's true. You do you do honestly there in
56:29
lines of their problem. So that is true. But so anyway, she
56:36
took over. Well, nineteen eighty one, Vernon Howe arrived at Mount Carmel
56:42
to study biblical prophecies under Missus Rowden, Benjamin's wife, and by nineteen eighty
56:52
three he had his own group of followers and they break off, break off
56:59
and become known as the Davidian Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist Association. I don't
57:10
how is where is Lois is Rawdon's group contained to you know, continue to
57:17
operate as the remaining you know, branch Davidians. So now Vernon Howe becomes
57:24
the Davidion Branch Davidians Seventh Day Adventist Association. Wow, on the same property.
57:32
She's operating the branch Davidians. This sounds like a South Park episode Batstone
57:40
and Trey Parker. You're welcome. But they stayed separate until she died.
57:50
Her son take over for a year. Then Vernon came in. But the
57:55
thing that was interesting it comes out Vernon and us we're having a little affair.
58:01
She was in her upper sixties, seas in his early twenties. Um,
58:07
so I'm sure she was not happy that he decided to break off.
58:12
Not only did he leave her bed, he left her group. Uh you
58:17
didn't say the magic word. And then when she died and her son took
58:22
over, he filed a document claiming to be the president of their group,
58:29
the Branch Davidians, and rose to power over the group. So he said,
58:35
I'm the president. The election was no, I'm kidding, said,
58:42
and he won it. Yep, oh man, So yeah, just kind
58:49
of funny. Now, in eighty four, how of his followers left Mount
58:54
Carmel and they were accused by George, you know, because his mama died.
59:00
They're Leavid of burning down the administration building. As they left, they
59:04
relocated to Palestine. Some people say Palestine. It is Palestine, Texas people
59:09
born and raised here. At me, if you don't like it, it's
59:12
like East Palestine. Ohio, everybody says East Palestine. It's East Palestine.
59:17
Just stop people. I have argued with people before about it, because I
59:22
used to when I did call centers, ran call centers. One was there.
59:27
But anyway, interesting thing they moved there. They didn't have a lot
59:30
of money, so they were living in Mount Carmel. Now they're living in
59:34
buses in tents for the next couple of years. So they were no restrooms,
59:38
no kitchens. They were It's like the intro to Jesus Christ, Superstar
59:45
of the musical movie. They're just traveling around in busses. We're going back
59:50
to the sixties. Whoo all right now. And George Roden because um,
59:55
you know, when they broke off, he renamed his followers that stayed with
1:00:00
him because when his mom died he inherited. They were called the Rodentville Road.
1:00:10
I think of Rodents. I'll tell you what, if they're living on
1:00:16
buses, maybe now, this is the one that stayed in Mount Carmel.
1:00:22
Son Howe went off. Yeah, so, but Vernon Howe in November of
1:00:29
eighty seven, he took seven of his followers. They rated Mount Carmel their
1:00:34
previous place because they wanted to take it and make it there because they're retired
1:00:37
of living in tents and buses. They went with semi automatical weapons, rifles
1:00:44
and shotguns with over four hundred rounds of ammunition to try to take on something
1:00:50
Jesus would do. M hmm. Well, George called the police on Vernon
1:00:57
Howe and his followers. They all got a red. They actually went on
1:01:02
trial. Yeah, all of the followers were found not guilty. The jury
1:01:07
was unable to agree on a verdict or Vernon House, so it was just
1:01:13
mistrial and it was dropped. The funny thing is George Roden later several years
1:01:19
he was found at a trial to be insane and sent to a psychiatric hospital
1:01:24
after he murdered Dale A. Dare with an axe. And he swore that
1:01:30
Vernon House sent him to cause him to kill him. That is very convenient
1:01:40
for him, huh. But I was like, he sent somebody who played
1:01:45
a mind game on you and made you killed them. I feel like John
1:01:51
Wayne Gacy had a better case for insanity. I don't feel like this guy.
1:01:58
They found him insane and they said books in a psychiatric hospital. Yeah,
1:02:01
so I thought that was interesting because you don't not a lot of people
1:02:05
get get by with that insanity defense. No back from the eighties, he
1:02:08
did. He did. Now, Vernon Howe legally changed his name to David
1:02:17
Koresh. There it is in May of nineteen ninety. Up. I just
1:02:23
heard mister bear Bark. I never knew he legally changed his name. I
1:02:30
thought he just proclaimed I am David Koresh. I didn't know he legally changed.
1:02:37
Yeah. I don't think I knew much about the intro. You know,
1:02:42
everybody just starts at Waco. Yep, David Koresh, I'll never hear
1:02:46
that. He when he came into the Davidians, he was Vernon Howe.
1:02:51
I actually looked and saw the legal paper where he changed his name. And
1:02:57
he did that because he said he had ties to the Bible, called King
1:03:00
David and Cyrus the Great. Oh, well, you know what then obviously
1:03:08
credible. Yeah, now this is something else I did not know. Did
1:03:15
you know that David Koresh had something in common with Hitler? Mmm? That
1:03:22
he had something in common with Hitler. I mean he kind of besides being
1:03:29
Oh, he wanted to create a new pure lineage of future leaders. He
1:03:38
wanted to get rid of everyone else and use his you know, Hitler was
1:03:47
his White Nation. Tip. Here's a tip for cult leaders. If you
1:03:52
don't want to get caught, there are certain things you shouldn't do. One
1:04:01
don't involve children. Two, don't involve other people's wives. Three don't make
1:04:10
it a sex cult, and chances are you'll be fine. Well, however,
1:04:15
what's interesting though, after David Koresh changed his name and started preaching that
1:04:23
new pure lineage and his message was the serpent's root. His ability to attract
1:04:32
many other followers who were buying in an okape with the children, the extra
1:04:41
wives that his crazy found other crazies. Yeah, there it is. Yeah,
1:04:49
crazy attract crazy. Yeah. But it wasn't long after that did some
1:04:55
of the former followers when he made that change. They are the ones who
1:05:00
started calling the police and saying, hey, you need to look into this
1:05:06
guy. There's child sexual abuse going on. They're we're taking in polygamy.
1:05:12
However, police investigated and they could not find any proof of it. And
1:05:19
I didn't want to put a lot of this in there because reading some of
1:05:23
the reports that I got into. One of the reasons is because people are
1:05:28
lying. Yeah, And I was like, hopefully, now, if this
1:05:33
was to happen, people are trained a little bit better to call bullshit.
1:05:40
Yeah. Yeah, you'd hope, So, I mean, you'd hope it's
1:05:42
more than just a phone call saying hey, we heard this is going on.
1:05:45
Is it happening? No, okay, and here's why and we'll get
1:05:48
to it. So looking into it. So back when he was how he
1:05:55
was nineteen, he had an illegal sexual relationship with a fifty year old who
1:06:00
got pregnant, and he was kicked out of the Seventh day Adventist church after
1:06:08
he told the pastor that God wanted him to have his teenager teenage daughter as
1:06:14
a wife, and the pastor was like, you're out of here. So
1:06:18
before he started to crazy preaching, he already had these issues. But he
1:06:28
started teaching that message the Serpent's Route when he was with Lois and he just
1:06:34
announced one day that God told him to marry Rachel Jones, who was fourteen
1:06:41
at the time, and it was granted and he married her. So when
1:06:51
a couple of years later they come and they're investigating, how did you not
1:06:56
look at his wife and go how old are you when you married him?
1:07:00
Because I'm just not My math isn't great, but let me get my calculator
1:07:04
out. You've still got an InSync posters, so this is not you know.
1:07:11
That's what I mean by they lied to him? How did they not?
1:07:15
Because I mean, I will say I've seen some fourteen year olds.
1:07:18
I think it passed for sixteen seventeen, but you would still be able to
1:07:26
tell if you had a conversation with them that they're fourteen. Oh yeah,
1:07:30
absolutely, but her family said, okay, I'm sure. But he also
1:07:38
practiced the doctrine of the House of David, which led to marriages with many
1:07:45
other women the polygamy style. One of his new spiritual wives he took was
1:07:53
Rachel's sister. So he took his legal wife's sister as of his spiritual wives.
1:08:00
It even had children with her. All right, So what we're saying
1:08:05
really is that this tree is just the trunk, like there are no branches
1:08:13
in the branch. So not only polygamy, but with your wife's sister.
1:08:21
I mean it wasn't his own sister, thank goodness. I mean, at
1:08:29
least it wasn't blood to him. But anyway, I just found that interesting.
1:08:33
So the rumors continued around them that there was multiple children being sexually abused.
1:08:42
They wouldn't say, and I found this interesting. And things have changed,
1:08:45
And I think that is because of Warren Jeffreys that it's changed. They
1:08:49
no longer if this was to happen now, they wouldn't say they were just
1:08:53
sexually abused. They would say they were sexually abused, that they were also
1:08:58
emotionally abused. But is they were spiritually married and they were told you were
1:09:03
married in the eyes of God. In this case, they know where go
1:09:09
back and say even though he married this young child. They only talk about
1:09:14
the sex abuse. They don't talk about all of the other forms of abuse.
1:09:18
Yeah, and I'll just say I kind of got a little pissed off
1:09:21
today about that, sure, because we're more aware now, and I would
1:09:31
think you would come back and say, because even with some newer articles about
1:09:36
it, they still don't say, oh, yeah, that happened. And
1:09:41
now with all of our experience and what we've learned, there's this, this
1:09:45
and this, But yeah, they don't. But anyway, I'm I'm regressing.
1:09:49
So February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three, the Bureau of Alcohol,
1:09:55
Tobacco and fire Arms, also known as the ATF, in case anyone to
1:10:00
know that they attempted to execute a search warrant relating to the rumored sexual abuse
1:10:06
charges and gun violations. Now I could not. I tried really hard.
1:10:14
I went into some of the court cases, went into things. I was
1:10:17
like, what gun violations? This is Texas. I couldn't find anything that
1:10:28
was like, what was the violation? Because you can have as many guns
1:10:31
as you want, all right. Yeah, so I couldn't find that.
1:10:38
And we'll talk a little bit more about some of the charges later, But
1:10:41
yeah, I put a pin in it for myself that when I'm back in
1:10:45
training tomorrow, I would have to talk a couple of the troopers and then
1:10:48
one of the tections say, okay, please explain this to me because some
1:10:51
of them are ye are a little older than that. Yeah, but how
1:10:58
where there are so many gun charges? Weren't they altering guns to make them
1:11:02
automatic? Didn't? It didn't say that's what I found. It's it is
1:11:09
such an innocuous and it's just says gun violation of gun, violation of gun.
1:11:16
Are they sought off and making them start off shotgun? Like you said,
1:11:20
making an automatic? Did they not have? I don't know, but
1:11:25
in Texas, of all places, it sounds like verbiage in order to get
1:11:30
a warrant. That's probably well. And then of course they thought that they
1:11:35
would go in at four twenty in the morning, thinking most people would be
1:11:40
asleep. You wake them up, you startle them, you get in,
1:11:44
you serve the search warrant. Well, as we all know, that is
1:11:49
not what happened. Now I'm going to save it till the end. I
1:11:56
have wondered for years how it got so out of hay end. I think
1:12:00
I found the answer today, whoopoo, and I will share it at the
1:12:08
end. And what is so interesting when I reveal it to you? How
1:12:12
far I had to dig to find this tidbit? Oh it was interesting.
1:12:17
So anyway, they went in. So they tried for a couple of hours
1:12:23
to get into the compounds. They didn't prepare very well because they started running
1:12:30
out of bullets and ammunition. Oh good, I was like, really,
1:12:35
I mean did you think? I mean? That just tells you how confident
1:12:39
we're gonna go in four twenty in the morning. We're gonna do this.
1:12:43
We don't need all that. We got it right, We'll be back to
1:12:45
Bob evans by. Yeah, they thought they were gonna have their donuts.
1:12:51
Yeah. So, needless to say, four ATF agents were killed in the
1:12:59
attempted compound breach, and the FBI took over their hostage negotiation team. Do
1:13:06
you know how many days it continued? I don't remember. So I have
1:13:16
a group text thing with people and I put the message out there. I'm
1:13:20
like, how long do you think it went on? I got twenty days.
1:13:25
Somebody said ninety days, and somebody said two. Damn long. I
1:13:31
like that person d one days. FBI hostage team was on site, communicating
1:13:41
with David and trying to reach a peaceful in so Koresh kept putting them off.
1:13:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well we'll do that. I just need
1:13:49
time. And they did release nineteen children early in this part, so they
1:13:56
were like, good faith, you know he's doing us. We now know
1:14:01
he was just stalling for time. But and I'm going to just be really
1:14:10
nice here because I personally like Governor Ann Richards, I don't care what anybody
1:14:16
else says. She you know, may not be perfect, but her in
1:14:21
As, how do you say? Reno? Janet reno. And they decided
1:14:30
we're tired of this ship and we need to get it done. And one
1:14:34
of these then nineteen kids had been released and they were interviewed by the Texas
1:14:41
rengeers in the FBI. They confirmed all of them had been physically and sexually
1:14:45
abused, so they decided they're still kids in there. So in April nineteenth,
1:14:51
they had enough of this ship and they said, you know what we're
1:14:56
going in So they brought in an armored combat vehicles and large fifty caliber weapons.
1:15:02
That's a great way to de escalate. Well, and here's what's interesting.
1:15:06
They never fired the fifty caliber weapon, so it was a show of
1:15:13
force. It wasn't necessarily to be used. Well, here's how big is
1:15:19
interesting. And so they did their standard thing. They started putting in tear
1:15:26
gas right to flush them out. Right. I found in a couple of
1:15:30
articles, but I could never find it where I felt one hundred percent confident
1:15:34
to say this. But the theory is they were able to put the tear
1:15:40
gas canisters into that fifty caliber weapon and shoot it in and they called it
1:15:47
a tear gas grenade. That's fascinating. I found it in two or three
1:15:55
that said that, but I never enough from a reputable place to say that's
1:16:01
what's done. So what happened. They were told, you're not shooting at
1:16:06
anybody, right, you're gonna pump gas in, you're gonna get them out.
1:16:10
Well, they started hearing gunshots and they're like, oh shit, they're
1:16:14
firing at us. Then they realized, wait a minute, they're not firing
1:16:18
at us. There's a lot of shooting going on. So they decided to
1:16:23
pump more tear gas in and that's where I read that they launched the tear
1:16:30
gas grenades via the fifty caliber weapon. And I mean, I would just
1:16:39
love to know. Is that an attachment that you put on there? I
1:16:44
mean, I'm just thinking, I mean, so I really have to find
1:16:47
out about that too, because if so, that's pretty damn awesome. It's
1:16:51
a cool idea, that's for sure. So yeah, But so they were
1:16:58
told not to fire, which they still say they didn't. But after putting
1:17:03
in all this extra tear gas, all of a sudden, three fires broke
1:17:08
out in different areas that at the same time. So the debate still is
1:17:15
whether the Davidians Branch Davidians blah blah blah blah blah blah blah started it.
1:17:23
Was it an accident, Did the FBI started accidentally or deliberately? No,
1:17:33
I mean, there's conflicting information. So all in all, David Koresh and
1:17:41
eighty of his followers, twenty two which were children, died during this final
1:17:45
FBI push. And there's a lot of opinions about David Koresh. He died
1:17:54
from a gunshot wound. Some say his first hand man killed because he figured
1:18:00
out he was a fraud. Some say it was because he was doing a
1:18:04
compassionate kill. Others say he committed suicide. But then his right hand man
1:18:12
also had a gunshot wound. So however you look at it, they died
1:18:17
right, Yeah, don't know who or what. So twenty of the followers
1:18:24
who died on this day were shot, including five who were children and under
1:18:30
the age of fourteen. And mind you, the FBI did not fire into
1:18:34
this facility on this day. Yeah, and a three year old was stabbed
1:18:42
to death, only one of those that. The others all died from falling
1:18:49
debris, fire things like that. But I just want to know, how
1:18:59
fucked up do you gotta that you turn and you shoot five children, Just
1:19:04
kill yourself and let the kids go. Yeah, but these people are so
1:19:12
stuck on the next like I've got nothing. Honestly, I've gotten nothing.
1:19:18
Just let your kids go. But so the government says that the Davidians were
1:19:24
shooting each other as part of a suicide pact, or they were killing people
1:19:29
who were trying to escape. What I found it interesting about that none of
1:19:33
the people who were shot on any of the diagrams I looked at were outside
1:19:40
of the building. So maybe they grabbed their backpack and said, hey,
1:19:45
I'm leaving and they shot him. But it's not like they were jumping out
1:19:48
of windows and got shot. Yeah. Yeah, So I just found that
1:19:56
to be kind of interesting. But all in all, for at F were
1:20:00
killed, six team were wounded during the initial raide. Now, twelve of
1:20:08
the surviving Davidians were indicted by a jury with charges for aiding and abetting and
1:20:15
murder of federal officers and unlawful possession and use of various firearms. We're back
1:20:21
to their use of various firearms. I don't know. I don't know what
1:20:30
the gun laws were back then, but they haven't changed that much. They
1:20:36
have gotten looser. Yeah, but eight an additional eight were convicted on firearm
1:20:43
charges, five convicted on voluntary manslaughter, and four were acquitted of all charges.
1:20:49
So my next question is, how did you decide who got charged with
1:20:54
what out of those people and how did four get nothing. I'm gonna I
1:21:01
have my theory they were females. They probably aren't the one who shot anybody.
1:21:12
It was probably the best but that's pure speculation on my part. Yeah,
1:21:18
here's the batshit crazy thing. By two thousand and seven. All of
1:21:25
them who were convicted were out of prison and living their lives. Oh fun,
1:21:30
two thousand and seven. It's good, that's great. I'm so glad,
1:21:36
so aiding and at betting and murder a federal officers. That's all you
1:21:44
get. I mean, Texas was just pissed they couldn't use the chair.
1:21:47
I don't know, I just let them out. Here's the other thing.
1:21:53
There are several religious groups still in practice today that proudly claim to be descendants
1:22:03
of the Branch Davidians from Waiteco. Anything to get a couple extra followers.
1:22:13
So now, FBI did finally admit that the tear gas grenade they used have
1:22:19
been known to cause fires, which means maybe the Davidians didn't start the fire.
1:22:30
But all three fires started at the exact same time, right in three
1:22:36
totally different areas. They would have had to have three fifty cows trained on
1:22:44
the three different areas all at the same time. But they did finally admit
1:22:49
and own that they could have possibly started it. But yeah, another interesting
1:22:57
thing. David Crush is buried at Memorial Park Cemetery and Tyler in the last
1:23:01
Supper section good and he had a burial with his family members there, but
1:23:14
his legal wife Rachel, her brother David, and her sister Michelle, and
1:23:18
the kids they had together were all kids killed in the fire. All of
1:23:23
them were buried in a pauper's grave. His family buried him in a nice
1:23:32
little private place, and Tyler, they just let them go to the county
1:23:36
owned pauper's grave where twenty others were buried. They basically dug twenty and put
1:23:44
them there. But how do you not take your grandkids and bury them next
1:23:48
to their dad? If you're gonna do it funeral service for your son,
1:23:55
shouldn't you have taken your grandkids and your daughter in law. I guess it's
1:24:00
easier to claim the cult leader than the illegitimate children. But they were married.
1:24:06
We're talking about his legal wife, Rachel, the one he legally was
1:24:12
married to, and the legal kids, not all the mastards that he had.
1:24:15
But that's not my word. People that I found articles that called them
1:24:19
that the children born out of wedlock. But I don't get why they just,
1:24:27
oh, we're gonna claim him, y'all keep the rest of them money.
1:24:32
I don't know. That's fascinating. So now here's the little tidbit I
1:24:40
found. Yes. So, first off, the families have the ATF agents
1:24:45
who were killed. They sued two media news organizations over the claims they're reporting
1:24:53
led to the death of them. A settlement was rached, and of course
1:24:58
they all said, well, well, it's not that we did anything wrong.
1:25:00
It was a business decision. It was cheaper to pay than to go
1:25:03
to court, right. But American Medical Transport was also sued after an employee
1:25:12
admitted to tipping off the Waco television station about the raid two hours before it
1:25:21
happened. Boom so and with me and my training that I'm in right now,
1:25:29
we start staging when those things happened. So they knew it was going
1:25:31
to be a big deal. So they had a medical group, Hey,
1:25:34
you need to be on standby. This could potentially go down. We're serving
1:25:39
this warrant. That employee told the news, So the Davidians found out before
1:25:47
they showed up. That's why they were all awake and armed and shot at.
1:25:53
They're ready to go. Oh my god, how in all of these
1:25:58
years had I not heard that the news? That's why, because it was
1:26:02
the news. I don't know. That's wild. What a numb's call So
1:26:13
I found that by looking at lawsuits that were filed, because there was a
1:26:19
lot of lawsuits filed against the government. You did this wrong, you did
1:26:24
this, YadA YadA yah. In fact, in July two thousand, a
1:26:28
jury absolved the government, saying it was a terrible tragedy. Right, you
1:26:33
didn't know they were gonna get tipped off, right, and you get killed.
1:26:39
Because if they would have gone in at four twenty and everybody was sleeping,
1:26:43
it would have probably been a little bit different outcome, Oh for sure.
1:26:48
But we employ told the news. So do you think that employ I
1:27:00
had to get some therapy? Yeah, you mean now still yes, because
1:27:08
I mean I can see you know, yeah, this is going down just
1:27:13
y'all know, probably didn't understand the cause and effect of what consequences would be.
1:27:17
Yeah. But the fact that they didn't tell how they were waiting for
1:27:25
them, yeah yeah, Oh my gosh. So that's it. So I
1:27:33
know there's a lot I left out, but I wanted to tell a little
1:27:38
bit about how how became David Koresh. There is a lot more on this
1:27:45
case. I did find at the end of all my research that there is
1:27:50
a good series on the History Channel to watch about it and that they have
1:27:57
some interviews from some of law enforcement that was on scene that day. That
1:28:02
would be good. Wow, that's it. Waco, Waco, Waco,
1:28:10
Waco. Thank you for joining JT and I for Part one of Cult Crimes.
1:28:15
Be sure to check out JT on Part two as he covers another crazy
1:28:21
cult. Until then, stay safe, watch out for crime, and enjoy
1:28:28
wine time. I want to say our episode today was researched by Terry Dousold,
1:28:33
edited by Phil Dousold. Our theme music is by attic Old. If
1:28:39
you want to support me in True Crime and Wine Time, please go to
1:28:44
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1:28:49
also interact with me directly on our Facebook page at True Crime and Wine Time
1:28:55
or on Twitter at Terry true Crime. Thank you for listening to True Crime
1:29:00
and Wine Time. Until next week, stay safe, watch out for crime,
1:29:06
and enjoy your wine time.