Latest / The Long Haul with The Articulate Fly / S8, Ep 73: REDUX: The Fight for Our Future: Land Tawney on Grassroots Advocacy and Public Lands - The Articulate Fly

Transcript

S8, Ep 73: REDUX: The Fight for Our Future: Land Tawney on Grassroots Advocacy and Public Lands - The Articulate Fly · The Long Haul with The Articulate Fly

• 0:03
  Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly.
• 0:07
  On this episode, I'm joined by outdoorsman, conservationist and grassroots organizer Land Tawney.
• 0:13
  Land and I discuss the keys to effective grassroots advocacy, the challenges facing our public lands, and his newest endeavor, American Hunters and Anglers Action Network.
• 0:22
  I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.
• 0:28
  If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice.
• 0:34
  It really helps us out.
• 0:37
  And as 2026 approaches, just a reminder for our industry friends that the Articulate Fly offers consulting services.
• 0:43
  Whether you need help planning for 2026, help figuring out how AI can boost your bottom line, or just need help with some old school blocking and tackling, we would love to hear from you.
• 0:53
  Check out the link to our consulting page in the show notes.
• 0:57
  And finally, a shout out to our sponsor, TroutRoutes.
• 1:00
  We all know streams are getting crowded and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point.
• 1:05
  Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using TroutRoutes Pro.
• 1:09
  With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, TroutRoutes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook.
• 1:20
  Up your game and download the app today.
• 1:23
  Use code ArtFly20 ArtFly20 all one word for 20% off of your TroutRoutes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now on to our interview.
• 1:36
  Well Land welcome to The Articulate Fly.
• 1:39
  Marvin, thanks for having me.
• 1:40
  I'm stoked to be h Yeah, I'm super excited too.
• 1:42
  And we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly.
• 1:44
  We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.
• 1:48
  So my earliest is really my dad would go down to the Big Hole river, which is in southwest Montana, during the salmonfly hatch, and we go down there for a week at least.
• 1:57
  And, and so my earliest memories are on the river with him and, you know, fishing these gigantic bugs for fish that were eaten on top.
• 2:06
  And you know, I always wondered why he would go out in the morning with his friends.
• 2:10
  It's because he had to deal with his kids in the afternoon, right.
• 2:13
  And so he would take these early morning floats, get up super early and then go fish and, and then come back, you know, and deal with us.
• 2:20
  But that, you know, I won't ever forget kind of those times with him especially.
• 2:25
  There's a canyon section and like that is just a gorgeous place.
• 2:28
  Yeah, that's super funny you say that.
• 2:30
  So my oldest son now is 23 and to get him to behave when he was younger, I would say, you know, little boys that don't listen can't get in drift boats.
• 2:38
  And so when he was almost eight years old, I took him out.
• 2:43
  Took the whole family out.
• 2:44
  I go to Montana a lot.
• 2:46
  I don't go as much now as I used to.
• 2:49
  We actually hit the salmon fly hatch.
• 2:50
  We were out for 4th of July and we hit it on the upper Madison.
• 2:52
  And here's this kid who's almost 8 years old in the back of a drift boat with an eight weight fly rod, you know, and he just thinks that's normal, right?
• 3:03
  And he's designed flies and he's running around the put in at Storey's Ditch, talking to guys about the cosmic blue butt bomb.
• 3:10
  That's basically like Chinese strung hackle and chenille and like lead eyes and showing it to everybody.
• 3:16
  And everyone's like, who's this kid?
• 3:18
  So.
• 3:20
  Well, very similar.
• 3:20
  I wasn't tying my own flies, but I was.
• 3:23
  I remember my dad like slamming on the brakes when we go by like a, like a dead squirrel so we could go cut the tail off, you know, I mean fishing, you know, and hunting were just a part
• 3:32
  of my life from a very young age.
• 3:33
  So like your son, like I didn't know anything different.
• 3:36
  Yeah.
• 3:36
  And so were you always a fly fisher or did you have to come officially to the dark side later in life?
• 3:41
  No, I started, I.
• 3:43
  It's funny, I started on the dark side and then I really had a hard time with conventional tackle.
• 3:48
  But I started fly fishing, you know, as early as I can remember.
• 3:51
  So probably five.
• 3:52
  And it wasn't like there was some big lesson.
• 3:54
  It was just like get in the back of the boat and kind of watch dad.
• 3:57
  And he maybe he taught me a little bit.
• 3:59
  That was trial by fire.
• 4:00
  But I remember the first time I went to go fish conventional tackle down in Louisiana after redfish that never really used it.
• 4:07
  So I get a lot of bird's nest, but they also called me moonshot because I would shoot that thing straight up in the air and then I'd like land like 10ft away from the boat.
• 4:15
  And I'm better now, but no, with a fly rod, that's something that, you know, I use since I was a little kid.
• 4:20
  And can I get better?
• 4:21
  For sure.
• 4:22
  But it definitely feels like it's like riding a bike or comfort in my hand.
• 4:26
  I would say.
• 4:26
  Yeah, I would say the baitcaster still causes me fits.
• 4:29
  Yeah, I haven't, you know, I haven't touched those because those are really bad for me.
• 4:33
  But conventional tackle, you know, like that kind of that flip over basket.
• 4:37
  I can do that now, you know, fairly proficiently.
• 4:40
  Yeah.
• 4:41
  So it sounds like your dad was a really important mentor to you in your outdoor life.
• 4:44
  Who are some of the other folks?
• 4:45
  I mean, you, you kind of grew up in the cradle of, like, everything amazing about fly fishing in Montana.
• 4:49
  Who are some other folks that have kind of mentored you on your fly fishing journey?
• 4:53
  Oh, it's great.
• 4:54
  So, I mean, my dad, my mom, I mean, I.
• 4:56
  I'd have to say both of them.
• 4:57
  My mom can still pick up a fly rod and just cast that thing.
• 5:00
  Great.
• 5:01
  And it was fun to go fishing with her.
• 5:03
  My dad's no longer with me, and so he died when I was 19, so I probably aggrandize him more more thanmymom,but Iwantto give my mom credit.
• 5:09
  Shout out, mom, if you're listening to this.
• 5:12
  And then, you know, I think Jim Posewitz.
• 5:14
  Jim Posewitz was an author here in Montana.
• 5:17
  He was a fisheries biologist at Fish Wildlife an Parks.
• 5:20
  But he and my dad were good friends, and so I spent a lot of time around him.
• 5:24
  Then a guy named Dale Burke.
• 5:26
  Dale Burke wrote for the Missoulian, the newspaper here in my hometown of Missoula.
• 5:31
  When my dad passed away, he would kind of continue that, that, that sojourn down to the big hole and take me down there and, you know, and give me flies.
• 5:41
  I remember his favorite fly was the Golden Stone, which, you know, doesn't look like necessarily like a salmonfly, but it's a stonefly still.
• 5:48
  And it was just something different about that bug.
• 5:52
  And it works all the time, but especially during the salmonfly, I think Ithinkitjustlooksdifferentandthosefish like it.
• 5:56
  But yeah, Dale Burke.
• 5:58
  And then, like, last one, you know, probably would be Jim Range.
• 6:01
  And Jim Range is actually from Washington, D.C.
• 6:05
  i met him when I was working for the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, but he had a ranch here in Montana.
• 6:10
  And, man, just the patience that I would see with him.
• 6:14
  You know, I think I was at an age when I first met him that I wanted to catch all the fish and all the big fish, you know, and he, he was much more patient.
• 6:23
  And I think, you know, looking at runs and the way you dissect those runs versus just going in there and trying to, you know, just go in there and catch a fish.
• 6:30
  Right?
• 6:30
  Like he would want to catch them all.
• 6:31
  So, yeah, Those are a few.
• 6:34
  But, you know, I feel very lucky, like you say, to be in the cradle and have people that, you know, that not necessarily wanted, you know, like, were very thoughtful about teaching me, but that I was just around.
• 6:45
  Yeah, that's pretty neat.
• 6:46
  It's important, you know, to kind of get that, that jackrabbit of youth out of your system.
• 6:51
  It'll make you kind of a better at lots of different things.
• 6:54
  Right, Good description.
• 6:55
  The jackrabbit of youth.
• 6:57
  I'm going to borrow that.
• 6:57
  That's a great one.
• 6:58
  Yeah, no, it's.
• 6:59
  Absolutely.
• 6:59
  I'll license that to you.
• 7:01
  You know, so it's interesting you spent in conservation and grassroots advocacy.
• 7:06
  And I was kind of curious, I mean, you know, to do something literally for, you know, gosh, about 30 years, right.
• 7:11
  You got to be passionate about it.
• 7:13
  And I was kind of curious, like where that interest and passion for that particular kind of issue and that modality came from.
• 7:20
  I mean, I'd start with my parents.
• 7:22
  You know, they were the first full time conservation lobbyists at the state legislature, but they helped start numerous organizations in this state.
• 7:30
  And then, you know, I mentioned Jim Range, who was with the TRCP.
• 7:35
  I mean, that guy, like when I was at the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership.
• 7:39
  We built a gigantic grassroots-like network to deal with roadless, which is funny because we're dealing with roadless right now too.
• 7:46
  But you know, to make sure that you're, you're getting the people to speak.
• 7:50
  You know, he came from Washington D.C.
• 7:51
  where everybody in D.C.
• 7:52
  thinks the world revolves around D.C.
• 7:54
  which in a lot of ways it does.
• 7:56
  But democracy is run by the people.
• 7:58
  And so I think, you know, through my parents, through my mentors, I mean, Jim Posewitz is another great example.
• 8:05
  You know, he wrote five books, but he would tour around the country and talk to any group, no matter how big, how small, about kind of like he wrote about, you know, conservation ethics.
• 8:17
  And so, you know, that just the people I was around, you know, the people, democracy works if the people speak up.
• 8:25
  And you know, I think that I've found a long time ago that that is rings true every single time.
• 8:30
  We might not win every single time, but you know, those voices at the table are super important.
• 8:35
  So I've learned that, you know, again from my parents and others.
• 8:38
  And yeah, you get some losses and that sucks.
• 8:41
  It really does.
• 8:42
  You know, or things take forever.
• 8:43
  You know, policy, sure you can have some wins and especially the stuff that you push back against that are the negative things you might win because you stopped it.
• 8:53
  But a Lot of the positive things that you do.
• 8:54
  I mean, the Land and Water Conservation Fund is something that I worked on for, you know, pretty much my entire career, 25 years until we got permanent, you know, funding for that at $900 million a year for access
• 9:05
  and conservation, like, that's like hitting your head against the wall for 25 years, you know, but finally the politics got right and you broke through.
• 9:12
  So, you know, you ask, like, why?
• 9:15
  It's just because I've seen it work, and I just believe wholeheartedly in the people and I believe in our democracy system.
• 9:21
  And so, you know, that's kind of a great segue to the next question, which is, you know, there.
• 9:26
  There are multiple avenues, right, to skin this cat.
• 9:30
  And I know why it's, you know, resonates with you, but why should other people, when they're saying, well, gosh, I could go work for a lobbyist, I could go work for an NGO or I could be an organizer,
• 9:40
  why should they kind of dig in on the grassroots side as opposed to going down a different path?
• 9:47
  You know, I'm not going to discourage from anybody from doing that.
• 9:49
  Right.
• 9:49
  I think it takes all people.
• 9:50
  I mean, that takes, you know, I think business people.
• 9:53
  I think that takes, you know, if you're an artist and you make music or you make art, like, use that talent.
• 9:57
  Right?
• 9:57
  But I think one of the things I like about grassroots activism is it's like, do what you can with what you got, where you are.
• 10:05
  Right?
• 10:05
  And so a lot of people, you know, they maybe have a different career, and they only have a certain amount of time.
• 10:10
  And so grassroots is kind of the only thing they can do.
• 10:12
  And so to me, you know, going back to, again, that tail kind of wagging the dog, democracy, you know, that's the.
• 10:21
  The squeaky wheel gets the grease in a lot of ways.
• 10:23
  Right?
• 10:23
  And so that noise needs to be loud from the grassroots.
• 10:26
  And so then that lobbyist, as you described, then can go into a room in D.C.
• 10:31
  and there, you know, there's a bunch of noise from the field and like, hey, are you hearing this?
• 10:35
  Oh, I'm hearing this.
• 10:36
  Well, okay, let's talk about this and let's figure out a compromise or a way forward, whatever that is.
• 10:40
  But that does not happen without that pushback from the grassroots.
• 10:43
  And so, you know, people listening to this grassroots, please.
• 10:46
  You know, I'm not going to say it's easy, but it's probably the easiest thing to put into your life where you can make a difference.
• 10:53
  Yeah, I think the important thing, too is because we're both raising children is, you know, to tell them that it's, you know, it's not about talking about doing stuff, it's about doing stuff.
• 11:02
  Yes, Right.
• 11:03
  And I think, you know, regardless of the issue, conservation, whatever it is, you know, we as a country suffer because they're not enough people putting their shoulder to the stone, regardless of their opinion.
• 11:14
  Right.
• 11:15
  Yeah.
• 11:16
  Yeah.
• 11:16
  I mean, the world is run by those who show up, you know, And.
• 11:20
  And, you know, people think that their voice doesn't count right now.
• 11:24
  And I understand that.
• 11:25
  Right.
• 11:25
  That sometimes, like, the pressures of.
• 11:27
  You look at, you know, the influence of money in particular in politics, and I would agree that, you know, those things are there, but, man, if you don't show up, then, you know, and we.
• 11:38
  We really.
• 11:39
  We don't have a chance at all.
• 11:40
  Right.
• 11:40
  And so to me, like, I love that idea of doing, you know, and in that doing, you're gonna fail, and that failure is sometimes one of the best things because you learn from it.
• 11:51
  Right.
• 11:51
  And.
• 11:51
  And to me, you know, you mentioned our kids.
• 11:54
  Like, I.
• 11:54
  I do.
• 11:55
  Like, you get out there and you try stuff, and no matter what, you're gonna learn from that.
• 11:59
  And so I think grassroots, just the grassroots nature in general, is about doing and then learning from those experiences.
• 12:06
  Yeah.
• 12:06
  It's funny, too, because the flip side of that with kids is you.
• 12:08
  I always tell my boys to watch what they do, not what they say.
• 12:13
  Fair, fair, fair.
• 12:15
  There's, like, doing has.
• 12:16
  Has definitely.
• 12:17
  There's some accountability with doing, but that is not bad either.
• 12:19
  Right.
• 12:20
  Because again, like, you learn from them.
• 12:21
  Yeah.
• 12:22
  So, you know, it's interesting.
• 12:23
  We've talked about this multiple times, and I've always kind of for my own not for profit experience, but also just kind of being around the outdoor industries, you know, and looking in at kind of what you did while
• 12:34
  you were backcountry hunters and anglers.
• 12:35
  And, you know, there are lots of outdoor organizations.
• 12:38
  But I think the thing that always strikes me is how broad based a coalition you built where you had young people and old people, liberals and conservatives.
• 12:48
  I mean, you had duck hunters, fly fishermen, gear guys, deer hunters, elk hunters.
• 12:53
  And that's.
• 12:54
  I mean, it's.
• 12:55
  I think it's actually singular.
• 12:56
  Right.
• 12:56
  Like, I think it's even more than just saying it's unique.
• 12:58
  Like, I don't think there's another organization in that space that accomplished that.
• 13:02
  And I was really kind of curious, you know, if you could share your secret sauce with us this morning.
• 13:07
  Let's get to the recipe.
• 13:08
  So I mean, I.
• 13:11
  It's a great question.
• 13:12
  And I've been, you know, I think about this stuff often.
• 13:15
  I mean, I.
• 13:16
  I break it down maybe into three things, but then know that there's much more to this recipe.
• 13:20
  Right.
• 13:20
  But to keep it, like, kind of simple, I think the first one would be just fun.
• 13:26
  Like.
• 13:27
  Like the issues that we deal with are very serious.
• 13:30
  And, you know, and.
• 13:31
  And then also, you know, a lot of these older nonprofits, they're very systematic about the way they do things, and it's not that much fun.
• 13:38
  Like, you know what you're going to get when you show up.
• 13:40
  And so the fun, you know, we did pint nights, we did brew fest, we did storytelling nights, you know, film fest.
• 13:49
  Like, the meetings were.
• 13:51
  I guess there's some rules of, you know, Robert's rules of order, you know, but it wasn't like this just kind of really stagnant kind of stuff.
• 13:57
  It was a lot more fun.
• 13:58
  So I think that fun factor is number one.
• 14:01
  That's what really, I think attracted a lot of the young folks.
• 14:03
  But also the older folks have been around for a long time.
• 14:06
  They were looking for something different.
• 14:09
  The next one, I guess, would be that.
• 14:12
  And we've talked about this, but I think there's a lot of hierarchy within nonprofits.
• 14:18
  And you have to spend a lot of time in a nonprofit a lot of times or in an organization, even be part of leadership.
• 14:26
  And, you know, you have to pay your dues, supposedly, or you have to have so much experience on the outside and at BHA, if you are willing to step up and volunteer your time and your energy and your
• 14:37
  brain, we let you be part of that leadership.
• 14:40
  And I'm talking about at a volunteer level in particular.
• 14:43
  And so that, you know, you may have somebody that's brand new to hunting or brand new to fishing, but their eyes on something is so different than somebody that's been around for 25 years, 30 years, right?
• 14:54
  And they may be brand new to conservation, but they don't have maybe some of the baggage from fights before now.
• 14:59
  They don't have that knowledge and that experience, which we need to kind of combine.
• 15:03
  I always used to say that you got to combine youthful exuberance and that sage wisdom, right?
• 15:10
  You know, you combine those two, that's a.
• 15:11
  That's a very secret sauce.
• 15:13
  But you got to allow the younger folks in particular, an opportunity to lead and be participants and not turn them away.
• 15:20
  And then the last one, which, you know, sounds simple, but we got to stand for something, too, right?
• 15:26
  And we all hear A lot of political speak, or we watch people not engage when you think they should be engaging.
• 15:33
  Right.
• 15:33
  And I think about organizations in particular, and, you know, right now, in particular, there's a lot of threats to our conservation legacy.
• 15:41
  But at BHA, you know, and what I'm doing now is that, you know, you just stuck up for the resource every single time.
• 15:48
  And when you did that, people saw that you were standing for something and, you know, there wasn't this, you know, real political speak.
• 15:55
  Now, I'm not going to say that, you know, there was times that I want to say certain things that I didn't say, but I said or I said it in a different way, because I did.
• 16:03
  But for the most part, you know, it was like, no, we're going to talk about this, and, and, and really give it plainly, but also succinctly on what this threat is and why and who you should go talk
• 16:13
  to.
• 16:14
  And so I think, you know, I always reference, like, you know, TOMS shoes, right.
• 16:18
  So these, these flat shoes.
• 16:19
  I don't know if you know about these Tom shoes, Right.
• 16:21
  Like, I remember them.
• 16:23
  Got them dating myself now about 15, 20 years ago, and they're coming out and they would buy a pair of shoes, you know, for somebody in a developing country, every single time you bought a pair of shoes.
• 16:33
  And, and so it was like this way to pay it forward, right?
• 16:35
  Standing for something.
• 16:36
  And I think that company took off not because their shoes are super rad.
• 16:40
  I mean, I can own a pair of, or like, I don't know how comfortable they are was because they were paying it forward, right.
• 16:44
  And so I think that idea of standing for something resonates in this world and folks are looking for it.
• 16:50
  So those are three of the recipes.
• 16:51
  I mean, the last thing I guess would say is just surrounding, you know, myself with a bunch of amazing people.
• 16:57
  You know, I mean, I mean, I think that, you know, at a volunteer level, at a staff level, I got to work with, you know, some of the best of the best, and I count my lucky stars for
• 17:07
  that.
• 17:08
  Yeah, it's super interesting.
• 17:09
  You know, listening to you talk, it makes me think about, you know, Simon Sinek talking about why.
• 17:13
  Right.
• 17:14
  And, you know, people, you know, it's not what you do or how you do it, it's why you do it.
• 17:18
  And that's what makes whatever it is you're doing sticky.
• 17:21
  Right?
• 17:22
  Totally.
• 17:22
  Totally.
• 17:23
  Yeah.
• 17:24
  That's great.
• 17:24
  Yeah, it's super interesting, too, Right?
• 17:25
  I mean, you know, we've talked about this a little bit too, and you Touched on it earlier.
• 17:29
  You know, it's ironic, right?
• 17:30
  We're.
• 17:31
  We're more connected today than we've ever been, but we're also more disconnected than ever.
• 17:37
  And, you know, one of the great challenges is we have these, you know, I think people legitimately, to your point about fun, I think they're starved for authentic community, Right?
• 17:45
  Absolutely.
• 17:46
  But I would also say too, that, you know, we've got these digital tools, but we're not really making great use of them for that type of connection.
• 17:54
  You know, what do you think we can do to kind of leverage these kind of new digital tools that we have to build authentic community?
• 18:01
  Yeah, I mean, I mean, the, the proverbial campfire, right?
• 18:06
  You know, like the, the fire that, you know, the first fire that was gathered around, like, we came together because we were community.
• 18:12
  So how do you create that, you know, in this digital world?
• 18:15
  And I think that part of that is, you know, is.
• 18:19
  Is really.
• 18:21
  There are so many people that I've met for the first time face to face that we were.
• 18:25
  Knew each other, you know, online before that.
• 18:28
  And it wasn't because they were just liking my posts, you know, or I was liking theirs.
• 18:32
  It's because we were DMing each other in the background.
• 18:35
  Right?
• 18:35
  Like, you know, thank you for this or like, tell me a little bit more about that.
• 18:39
  And, and so, you know, we almost knew each other before we did.
• 18:42
  Right.
• 18:42
  And so I think that idea of building community online, it's not just this stagnant screen, you know, I think that we have to think about how we're interacting with people.
• 18:52
  And again, that can be liking posts or whatever.
• 18:54
  But I think DMing people and getting to know them that way or responding to dms, right?
• 18:59
  Like, I think a lot of people send or receive DMs but don't respond to them either they think they don't have the time or they're like, well, this is kind of weird, you know, like, I don't even know
• 19:09
  this person.
• 19:09
  But like, to me, you know, anybody, you know, I think at BHA and even now that anybody that's like, curious about the conservation legacy that we all have and wants to kind of perpetuate that going forward, you know,
• 19:23
  I'm willing to talk to any of those people even if, you know, we don't share, you know, many other ethos or many other similar things, but if they care about that.
• 19:30
  So I think that's that interaction that way, you know, you get to see people.
• 19:35
  I mean, I know I've met people, they're like Man, I've seen your ugly, like, gap tooth face so much, and it's crazy to meet you in person.
• 19:42
  And so, you know, video, you know, makes people real too.
• 19:44
  Right?
• 19:44
  And I think, like, that idea of not being polished, you know, and just kind of showing how it really is, I think is another way to kind of be authentic online and so that people can identify with that.
• 19:54
  But, you know, I think it never takes the place of that face to face, ever.
• 19:59
  But I will say that there's ways to kind of, you know, like, get around that or, like, utilize the tools that we have.
• 20:05
  Yeah, it's interesting, right?
• 20:06
  Cause I've.
• 20:07
  I mean, I have a love hate relationship and would be much less involved in social media if it wasn't for the podcast stuff.
• 20:12
  But I've met great people.
• 20:13
  And, you know, to your point, like, if people DM you or, you know, if they tag you, they probably meant to tag you for a reason.
• 20:20
  Right?
• 20:21
  But I also think, you know, if you're just that person, but you now have this easy way to have people find you.
• 20:25
  I always tell people that, like, all these platforms for what I do in podcasting, they're like my imperial probe droids.
• 20:31
  Right?
• 20:32
  Like, right wherever you are.
• 20:35
  Like, if you're a Twitter dude, you can find me on Twitter.
• 20:37
  If you're on Facebook, like, wherever it is, I just want to make it easy for you to find me if you think what I'm doing is interesting or helpful.
• 20:44
  Totally, totally.
• 20:45
  And yeah, I mean, it's.
• 20:46
  I mean, we're living in an era where you can talk to everybody.
• 20:51
  Literally, like, you can talk to everybody.
• 20:52
  And so, you know, that sometimes is like, again, it maybe makes it so it's not as personable, but that's just up to the.
• 20:59
  That's up to the person that's creating, and that's up to the person that's, like, receiving.
• 21:02
  Right.
• 21:02
  And.
• 21:03
  And to me, as long as that stuff's authentic, man, it's a great way to communicate.
• 21:07
  And, you know, how lucky are we that we do get to spread this message in a very simple way to as many people as possible?
• 21:13
  Yeah, it's funny, I always tell people it's a tool.
• 21:15
  It's like a shovel.
• 21:16
  I can hit you on the head or dig a hole.
• 21:17
  It's up to me, dude, I can't.
• 21:21
  Wait to listen to this back and just write all these things down because they're money, dude.
• 21:25
  That's good.
• 21:26
  Well, I'm glad you like that and you touched on the importance of empowering people, particularly young People.
• 21:33
  But also that creates headaches, right?
• 21:38
  So I suspect probably at your time at BHA, you got phone calls like, I can't believe Bob did this.
• 21:42
  You got a real Bob in.
• 21:44
  Bob's off the reservation.
• 21:46
  You know, how do you manage that where, you know.
• 21:49
  Because it's always tough, like, if you empower, particularly younger or.
• 21:52
  And I don't mean less experienced in a bad way, just factually, less experienced people, you know, they're going to eat some yellow snow, right?
• 21:59
  So you gotta, like, coach them without breaking them.
• 22:03
  Yeah.
• 22:03
  And I think, like, that word coaching is super important, right?
• 22:07
  And I think that, you know, at BHA, we would put guardrails on kind of like, you know, where what folks could do and like, kind of within the realm of backcountry hunters and anglers.
• 22:18
  And sometimes their tactics or sometimes they go outside of that.
• 22:21
  But I loved it because, you know, I'd rather.
• 22:24
  I'd rather.
• 22:25
  I use this analogy a lot.
• 22:27
  I don't want to kick horses out of the barn.
• 22:29
  I want to try to, like, you know, like, rein them in a little bit, right?
• 22:31
  And like.
• 22:32
  And coach them.
• 22:32
  And I think that word coaching is super important.
• 22:34
  So when those mistakes would happen, you know, I had multiple times fish and game directors would come to me and be like, so and so said this to me.
• 22:41
  And I was like, okay.
• 22:43
  And for one, like, are they wrong?
• 22:44
  You might not have liked the way they said it, but, like, are they wrong?
• 22:47
  But then two, thank you for the feedback.
• 22:49
  And then you go talk to that person and be like, hey, the director's talking about you.
• 22:52
  So that's a good thing.
• 22:53
  Let's talk about, you know, maybe maybe a little bit different how you could have done that, so you could have be heard differently, right?
• 22:58
  And so again, like, that horse is running and it is kind of crazy, right?
• 23:04
  And it's going out there and it's chewing up ground.
• 23:07
  I'd rather have that than, like, hey, like, trying to coax them out of the barn, right?
• 23:11
  I say kick him out of the barn.
• 23:12
  Like, oh, here's like a, you know, little apple to try to get out of the barn.
• 23:15
  And so that coaching, I think, afterwards is such an empowering thing.
• 23:19
  But they gotta.
• 23:20
  They gotta want to, like, hear that coaching too, right?
• 23:22
  And I think that, that, you know, sometimes I will say there was some that didn't, and that was really hard to have those conversations.
• 23:29
  At some point, you know, we also had to.
• 23:32
  Had to cut bait.
• 23:32
  But, you know, the majority of people were in this for the right reasons and they would Listen to coaching, you know, not just for me.
• 23:40
  Like, I.
• 23:40
  I wasn't at the.
• 23:41
  At the top of that coaching, you know, all the time, but many others in BHA.
• 23:45
  But if they were willing to listen, then you knew that they were going to be even a better, I would say, conservation leader because they wanted to improve themselves.
• 23:53
  You know, they weren't just out there trying to conquer the mountain.
• 23:55
  They wanted to do it in the right way.
• 23:56
  And.
• 23:57
  And so, you know, yeah, I.
• 23:59
  I think I would.
• 24:00
  Again, I'll say it one more time because I think it's so important, but I would rather have to coach those people, like, on how they did things differently versus just coach them in the first place to do something,
• 24:10
  right?
• 24:10
  Like, they have to get out of that barn, and they have to be willing to do that.
• 24:14
  And if they do that, then, you know, I think there's definitely opportunity to help steer them.
• 24:18
  Yeah, it's interesting, too, right?
• 24:19
  Because, you know, people also have to be willing to take that kind of feedback, right?
• 24:24
  So, like, you know, it's kind of interesting because people will ask you what you think.
• 24:28
  And, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you, but we've got some miles on the tires.
• 24:31
  And, you know, at this point in my life, I was like, well, do you want me to affirm you or do you want me to help you get better?
• 24:37
  Which is.
• 24:38
  Which is good.
• 24:39
  And I, you know, I always say that, you know, feedback is tough, and I'm not always taking it the best way either, you know, And I think as I get older, like, I'm.
• 24:46
  I'm starting to realize that, you know, there's more that I don't know than I do know.
• 24:51
  And then I also want to get better at what I do.
• 24:54
  And.
• 24:54
  And so.
• 24:55
  But, yeah, I mean, throughout my career, I'm sure that I got some feedback.
• 24:58
  And I was like, go pound sand, man.
• 25:00
  And now when I look back at that, I was like, yeah, probably could have learned a little bit.
• 25:03
  And I did, but maybe not right in that moment, you know?
• 25:07
  Yeah, it's like.
• 25:07
  It's like I tell my boys, like, when your football coach stops yelling at you, you're done.
• 25:11
  Right?
• 25:13
  Well, I mean, my mom.
• 25:14
  My mom has, like, you know, she's told me, because I get caught in the, you know, crosshairs quite a bit, and she's like, if somebody's not mad at you, it probably means you're not doing something right, you know,
• 25:23
  and you got to kind of be in that arena.
• 25:25
  And that means, you know, for me, I Call it the radical middle or the movable middle, maybe where I'm talking about it more.
• 25:31
  But you have somebody on the far left or the far right, and if they're mad at you, you're probably right where you need to be.
• 25:36
  Yeah.
• 25:37
  Which is kind of funny because another important thing that helped you at BHA, and I think, you know, people don't understand this.
• 25:42
  I mean, you went from like a thousand.
• 25:43
  You corrected me.
• 25:43
  It wasn't 50, it was 40,000 people.
• 25:46
  Still an amazing accomplishment.
• 25:47
  But you were also very judicious about when to lean in.
• 25:51
  Right.
• 25:52
  And so.
• 25:52
  Because you can't fire all your bullets.
• 25:54
  Right.
• 25:54
  Because then you're kind of screwed later on.
• 25:56
  But, you know, how did you make that decision about when was the time to lean in?
• 26:01
  And I think that's something that I see a lot of organizations in this, our space playing it safe.
• 26:06
  So, like, one is like, how did you make that lean in decision?
• 26:09
  But then also to, you know, what can other folks learn from me to be more effective in their mission?
• 26:14
  Marvin, it's a great question.
• 26:16
  This is probably the hardest one I have answering.
• 26:18
  And I think that part of that is just intuition, really.
• 26:21
  But I also would say, like, I mean, the sale of public lands, that's a hell no.
• 26:25
  Right?
• 26:26
  Like, that's a hell no.
• 26:27
  And like, that happened with Congressman Chaffetz back in 2017, you know, right when BHA was really ramping up.
• 26:34
  And that was when it was like, one.
• 26:37
  Is that going to be super bad for, you know, our, our conservation legacy, the 640 million acres that everybody that is listening to this owns?
• 26:48
  Like, we cannot, like, you know, chip that away at that and that 3 million acres.
• 26:52
  So that resonated.
• 26:53
  But I also knew that one was like, it didn't matter if you were Republican, you know, a Democrat, independent, didn't matter how much money you had.
• 27:01
  Like, those public lands, since they belong to all of us, like, the idea of selling them just resonated.
• 27:06
  So that's, that's, that's easier, I would say.
• 27:08
  I think that, you know, there was also, you know, lots of issues when it came to, like, state wildlife management that we didn't engage in.
• 27:17
  Because I watched organizations, you know, throughout my career, 25 years, I worked for National Wildlife Federation for a long time.
• 27:25
  And these state federations who are, do amazing work, but they would get concentrated on like, like season setting, let's say, right.
• 27:32
  You know, or, you know, when the season opens or how many you can take.
• 27:35
  And I'm talking both on fishing side and the and the hunting side, and that's all they would do.
• 27:40
  While these other issues, let's say like, clean water, which is, you know, like when the, when the Clean Water act is attacked, that's one that's going to affect so many people.
• 27:49
  So now they're not working on the Clean Water act because they're focused on these other issues.
• 27:52
  And I'm not saying that those issues shouldn't be addressed.
• 27:54
  I just think that you like, to your point that these larger issues that have, like the sale of public lands.
• 28:01
  I just talked about the Clean Water act.
• 28:04
  Like, those issues are bedrock issues for our legacy and we have to stand up for those every single time.
• 28:11
  And if we do not, it doesn't matter about this other stuff down the road.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:15
  It's like picking the hill you're gonna die on.
• 28:16
  Right?
• 28:17
  Totally.
• 28:17
  And it's, there's some art to that.
• 28:19
  Right.
• 28:20
  And I, and I, again, like, that's why I think it's hard for me to tell you that.
• 28:23
  But I would say, like, again, like, these issues that are large enough that affect, you know, so many people, like, it's almost like you can't not get involved in those, you know?
• 28:33
  Yeah, it's interesting.
• 28:33
  I mean, it's a really challenging thing, right.
• 28:35
  About when you're trying to, like, you know, you can't be transactional.
• 28:38
  You're trying to play a long game and you're trying to figure out like, you know, you're kind of like Barney Fife, Right.
• 28:42
  You only got so many bullets and you're trying to figure out when to pull the trigger, Right?
• 28:46
  Yeah.
• 28:47
  Yeah.
• 28:47
  But, you know, it's interesting, right, because if people thought you were aggressive at BHA, I mean, I just re shared one of your Instagram reels last night.
• 28:54
  You are like, you're throwing some gasoline at American Hunters and Anglers Action Network.
• 29:00
  You want to tell us about, about your new venture?
• 29:03
  Sure.
• 29:04
  So, you know, I've been involved, like we've Talked about for 25 years in conservation, and the majority of that has been with, you know, organizations that are 501(c)(3)s.
• 29:15
  They have membership bases.
• 29:16
  And it's been, you know, really the joy of, of my life is working with these organizations.
• 29:22
  But there's some, there's some restrictions there.
• 29:24
  And, you know, with the 501(c)(3), which is a designation by the IRS, you can only lobby 20% of your overall budget.
• 29:32
  So let's say at BHA, when we had our largest budget, yes, we could start, we could do quite a bit of lobbying, but it's only 20%.
• 29:40
  And so that's grassroots lobbying, and that's direct lobbying out in Washington, D.C.
• 29:43
  so grassroots lobbying is what we've been talking about all day today.
• 29:45
  That's like, you know, letting people know what's happening and then asking them to get involved.
• 29:51
  So that is 20% of your overall budget, and then you can't get involved in politics.
• 29:55
  And, you know, I've done a lot of political work on the side for Jon Tester in particular.
• 30:01
  He used to be a senator here in Montana.
• 30:02
  And trying to help him get elected and the inability to elect leaders that care about, you know, our issues, I think is a major disconnect in this country.
• 30:10
  Now, 501(c)(3)s cannot do that at all.
• 30:14
  This new entity, American Hunters and Anglers, it's a 501(c)(4).
• 30:18
  And so we can 100% of the time lobby if we want.
• 30:21
  And so that's why you see us up almost every single day on social media talking about, you know, an issue that's facing hunters and anglers.
• 30:28
  And then we can also get involved in politics.
• 30:30
  And so the idea, you know, especially in 2026 that's coming up, it's going to be an important election to kind of talk about our issues and have people from both the Republican side and the Democratic side really care
• 30:44
  about our issues.
• 30:45
  And so I think the way that you do that is that you get some of the bad actors unelected.
• 30:51
  Now, Mike Lee's not up till 2028, but I'll tell you that there's definitely a target on him right now from the entire community, not just American Hunters and Anglers, but you help get people diselected.
• 31:00
  Then you also help get people elected, and that just helps us win.
• 31:04
  The 501(c)(3) is like the Trout Unlimiteds, the BHAs, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundations, Ducks Unlimited, whoever.
• 31:10
  When they walk into that room, you know, people know that they have to pay attention because of elections.
• 31:15
  And so American Hunters and Anglers is new.
• 31:17
  new.Iwouldsaythatthe other thing that's new is we don't have a membership.
• 31:20
  We don't have a volunteer base.
• 31:23
  And so we're able to.
• 31:24
  We're not able to.
• 31:26
  We don't have to really worry about what we say, or we don't have corporate partners either.
• 31:29
  Right.
• 31:29
  And so sometimes people, you know, oh, I wish you wouldn't have said it like that, or why are you talking about that at all?
• 31:35
  Like, that's not happening now.
• 31:36
  And so we're very free.
• 31:37
  And so you're seeing that We're a little more aggressive.
• 31:39
  That's partly my nature in general, but it's also, you know, we're trying to get people's attention because in my 25 years of working in this space, I have never seen it this bad.
• 31:50
  And I described the other night I was talking about Trout Unlimited chapter that I haven't really thought about this way.
• 31:55
  But, you know, in the past, in my career, you'd have a thing going on, you know, one place, one over here and then another.
• 32:01
  But those were all at separate times, right?
• 32:03
  Like, you know, whether that was an attack on, like I said, the sale of public lands or attack on the clean water or other issues, but it's all happening at the same time right now.
• 32:12
  And so this pressure that's in front of us is this important moment.
• 32:17
  And I mean, get on my soapbox a little bit, but my mentor Jim Posewitz would just pound in my head that there was really no great leaders.
• 32:25
  There was just great occasions.
• 32:27
  And these great occasions, you know, came when, you know, something bad was happening in this country where that was the market killing, you know, that was.
• 32:33
  That was happening, you know, early 1900s, the dirty 30s, when the lid's coming off the prairie, the dust bowl, you know, 60s, when rivers are freaking on fire.
• 32:43
  Like, there was some.
• 32:44
  There's been some really rough times for conservation in this country.
• 32:47
  But every single time during these great occasions, like, leaders have stepped up.
• 32:51
  And sure, we know some of the names like the Theodore Roosevelts, the Aldo Leopolds, the Ding Darlings, the Rachel Carsons.
• 32:58
  There's also a lot of people we don't know the names of that stood up.
• 33:01
  And so right now is our great occasion.
• 33:03
  And, like, this is starving for leadership and that leadership, you know, I think there's a lot of people scared about, you know, retribution right now.
• 33:12
  And at American Hunters and Anglers, we're not scared of that at all.
• 33:15
  In fact, like, we kind of lean into it.
• 33:17
  And I'm, you know, I'm willing to be in the fight.
• 33:19
  And that's what American Hunters and Anglers is.
• 33:21
  And I will say one last thing, is that, you know, we're a small nimble little speedboat right now, you know, or, like, you know, if you think about a raft versus a.
• 33:29
  Or drift boat versus, like, a kayak, we don't have to worry about talking to a bunch of people to make decisions.
• 33:35
  We can make decisions within the small group of four that I'm working with and make them fast, which, you know, move at the speed of politics, because it's happening Every single day right now.
• 33:44
  It's not like you can, you know, plan for something over a month, because stuff's changed in a month right now.
• 33:49
  So that's.
• 33:50
  That's me on the soapbox a little bit.
• 33:52
  I would just say that it's like, in short, American Hunters and Anglers really is about telling the story about what's going on through social media in particular, and then giving people an opportunity to do something about it in
• 34:06
  a grassroots way.
• 34:07
  Yeah.
• 34:08
  It's interesting, too, because, you know, I think people also don't understand that one of the reasons some of the organizations that they would expect to be more vocal aren't is because they're beholden to people for their money.
• 34:19
  Right.
• 34:19
  Like, not just on the corporate side, but, I mean, you know, if you look at the big movers and shakers, I mean, you know, 95% of their budget are state and federal grants, right?
• 34:28
  Totally.
• 34:29
  Totally.
• 34:29
  And, you know, I don't know.
• 34:32
  You know, I used to.
• 34:33
  When I was.
• 34:33
  Earlier in my career, I used to always talk about trying to accumulate FU money.
• 34:36
  Right.
• 34:36
  Cause then it sets you free.
• 34:40
  So, I mean, that's.
• 34:41
  That's a problem you guys don't have.
• 34:42
  And you've intentionally designed your mousetrap so that you don't have that problem.
• 34:46
  You don't.
• 34:46
  And I.
• 34:47
  And I don't like what I really want to say.
• 34:49
  And like, you know, at 50 years old, I.
• 34:51
  Again, I have so much more to learn, and I'm learning every single day.
• 34:55
  But one of the things that I have learned is that, you know, every organization plays their role.
• 35:00
  And sometimes I get frustrated, you know, that certain organizations aren't stepping up because these policies that are happening at a federal level, in particular from this administration or from this Congress, are affecting them and their mission directly.
• 35:14
  Like, maybe that's just not the role.
• 35:15
  Right.
• 35:16
  Like, you know, with American Hunters and Anglers, like, we're kind of creating that fire in that firestorm and so that these other organizations can walk into that room and then make the deals.
• 35:25
  Like, you know, we're not at American Hunters and Anglers.
• 35:28
  You know, we've.
• 35:28
  I've been out to D.C.
• 35:29
  a couple of times.
• 35:30
  I've been in some rooms and done some conversations.
• 35:33
  But the majority of what we're doing is creating that upswell from the grassroots so these other organizations can walk in the door and make the deals.
• 35:40
  Right.
• 35:40
  And I think those are different roles, and that is okay.
• 35:44
  Not everybody has to be doing the same thing.
• 35:45
  Like, we're in a battle right now.
• 35:47
  And like, you Know, we're just kind of like the front SEAL team.
• 35:50
  That's fucking shit up.
• 35:51
  Excuse my language.
• 35:52
  And so the others can kind of come in there and mop up the mess.
• 35:54
  Right.
• 35:55
  And I think that, you know, that's an important role to play, and not everybody can play the role that we're playing for the exact reasons you just described.
• 36:01
  Yeah, it's interesting.
• 36:02
  Makes me think about being the lead car in the NASCAR pack, and you've got everybody drafting behind you.
• 36:07
  It's.
• 36:07
  I mean, it's.
• 36:08
  And I don't want to.
• 36:09
  I literally don't want to, you know, aggrandize what we're doing in American Hunters and Anglers too much either.
• 36:13
  Right.
• 36:13
  But I do think it's an important role right now because, you know, a lot of people aren't.
• 36:18
  Aren't willing to step up.
• 36:20
  And, you know, you said federal grants and corporate partners, but that's also membership.
• 36:25
  Right.
• 36:25
  Like, you know, membership is an important thing.
• 36:27
  And, you know, I talked about at BHA, you got to stand for something, which I think is super important.
• 36:32
  And these other organizations do stand for something, but sometimes they're not outspoken because they're going to lose membership.
• 36:38
  Yeah, it's interesting.
• 36:39
  And so, you know, people kind of understand at a very high level, you know, even if they're slightly watching the news that we've got, you know, we've got a public land issue.
• 36:46
  And, you know, the.
• 36:47
  The reel that we were talking about before started recording that you put out last night was on the boundary waters.
• 36:51
  But, you know, I think probably at most people have kind of gotten desensitized to the news, so maybe they get an alert from TU or somebody else saying, like, hey, hit this thing.
• 37:02
  Reach out.
• 37:03
  But can you kind of maybe throw out maybe a handful of the most pressing instances and issues that you're seeing so people can be a little bit more attuned to kind of what's going on on the ground.
• 37:13
  Absolutely.
• 37:14
  And thank you for the question.
• 37:16
  You know, I would break it down into kind of three areas, and those three areas would be this idea of dismantling, then defunding, and then divesting our public lands and our public waters.
• 37:28
  And so that first kind of piece of dismantling, I think we're all aware and hopefully are aware of the kind of the DOGE-ing, which is now an active verb, I guess.
• 37:37
  But like, that happened, you know, starting back in February and cutting all these employees, federal employees, from our state or from our federal management agencies.
• 37:47
  Right.
• 37:47
  So these are the people that are on the front lines of conservation.
• 37:49
  Was there some dead weight?
• 37:51
  Absolutely.
• 37:51
  But the way that was done was not with a scalpel, that was done with a, you know, and a big old splitting maul probably more than anything.
• 37:58
  And so that severed, you know, I think 25% of most of our agency workforce.
• 38:03
  There's another one in front of us right now during this shutdown.
• 38:06
  You know, they're talking about a RIF, which is a reduction in force and making this stuff permanent.
• 38:11
  And so you're just taking away agencies that were already understaffed.
• 38:17
  And again, was there some dead weight?
• 38:18
  Absolutely.
• 38:19
  But I think that dismantling piece is huge.
• 38:24
  Another part of that dismantling piece is really, you know, like going after our special places.
• 38:28
  So you mentioned the Boundary Waters, right?
• 38:30
  The Boundary Waters in northern Minnesota.
• 38:32
  1.1 million acres, most visited wilderness in the entire Country.
• 38:36
  Because 5 year olds and 95 year olds can get in there because it's pretty darn easy.
• 38:40
  Like you just get in a canoe and you go across this lake, right?
• 38:43
  And you're in the Boundary Waters.
• 38:44
  The portaging, sure.
• 38:45
  When you gotta go in between lakes is a little bit arduous, but not much.
• 38:48
  Right.
• 38:49
  You're not gaining that much elevation.
• 38:51
  So there's a reason why it's the most visited wilderness.
• 38:53
  They're trying to dismantle kind of that legacy by putting a mine a quarter mile south of the Boundary Waters.
• 38:59
  It's a Chilean-owned mine.
• 39:00
  That water goes north and so that, you know, why are they doing it there?
• 39:04
  Because if they can do it there, they can do it anywhere.
• 39:05
  Right?
• 39:06
  I mean, you look at the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, which was established when energy development was happening on the North Slope, in particular in Alaska, they said, let's establish the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge as a place where we
• 39:20
  don't do development.
• 39:20
  So that caribou population, those salmon, all the species that call that place home, that they can thrive without human kind of impacts from development in particular.
• 39:30
  And now we're talking about going into the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, right?
• 39:33
  And, and drilling for oil.
• 39:35
  And then you go up to like the Brooks Range up in northern Alaska.
• 39:40
  This place that has been kind of untouched.
• 39:42
  I mean, that there's a road, that's the Ambler Road that's proposed up there, that is 210 miles and that, you know, would go right through Gates of the Arctic National Park.
• 39:52
  It crosses 11 rivers, 3,000 streams.
• 39:55
  Like it's just, like it's just this industrial road, right.
• 39:58
  There's just places where we shouldn't be touching.
• 40:00
  But that dismantling has Been is happening and being tried in these places like the Boundary Waters or the Arctic, because there are these special places that if they can do it there, they can do it anywhere.
• 40:10
  So that first place I would say is dismantling the defunding.
• 40:14
  People should be aware of this.
• 40:15
  This isn't new to this administration.
• 40:17
  Defunding of our public land agencies have been happening for last two decades where we're not prioritizing, I would say, our funding on our public lands.
• 40:26
  And this administration has taken it to a whole nother level.
• 40:28
  Right.
• 40:29
  I think that across the board, this budget hasn't been passed yet, thank goodness.
• 40:33
  But they're talking about cutting our federal management agencies by 35%.
• 40:38
  So, you know, that's, that's a defunding.
• 40:40
  I would say in a big way, I have solutions for that.
• 40:42
  Maybe we can get to later.
• 40:44
  But that defunding and then the last place is that divestiture.
• 40:47
  And I think that, you know, everybody is looking at kind of the sale of public lands that happened late spring and early summer.
• 40:54
  You know, it's proposed to help pay off these tax breaks.
• 40:57
  So it was in the house first 3 million acres, then it went over to the Senate and, and you know, it was resoundingly, like sent back to the drawing board or like put in the dirt.
• 41:08
  Maybe using that shovel, that analogy earlier, you know, they got banged on the head and then we brought out the shovel and buried it.
• 41:14
  But Mike Lee, who's, you know, this, the in charge of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee in the Senate, you know, once he pulled back that provision of the bill, he said publicly and he said it multiple times
• 41:27
  that I'm not done.
• 41:29
  And he is the chair of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee.
• 41:31
  So believe me, it's not over when he has that position.
• 41:34
  And, and ultimately, you know, the sale of public lands, which that, which the defunding and dismantling lead to, like if we can't take care and feed of our public lands and our public waters, well, man, maybe we should
• 41:46
  privatize those things that divestiture.
• 41:49
  We never get neverget itback.
• 41:50
  Right.Andthat'snevergoing to goaway.And I think Roy Rogers this quote, and that was, that was my dad that told me this.
• 41:56
  I'm not dating myself far back to Roy Rogers, but he just quote, you know, buy land because they're not making any more of it.
• 42:01
  And like this public land, 640 million acres that you and I all own, the real estate alone is worth, you know, trillions of dollars.
• 42:09
  But then, you know, all the resources There are worth a lot too.
• 42:12
  And so somebody's going to always try to privatize those.
• 42:15
  And we the people just have to like, you know, do what we can to keep, keep in front of that.
• 42:18
  So those three, three kind of ideas of defund, dismantle and then divest, I think are the three main things right there.
• 42:26
  And there's plenty more that I could talk about and all that, but I don't want to, you know, overwhelm people, I would say.
• 42:32
  Yeah, and I would say too, I think the important thing is that, you know, while you are absolutely a defender of public land, you are not anti development and anti management.
• 42:40
  Right.
• 42:41
  And so I think, you know, you and I have talked before, you know, your frustration is to your point is like, as opposed to having a thoughtful, deliberate process, you know, we just kind of go in with sledgehammers
• 42:52
  and mauls.
• 42:53
  Right.
• 42:53
  And so why don't you let folks kind of know?
• 42:55
  Because, you know, that's always a common kind of little bit of shade people throw on people that do what you do, which is like, well, they're against everything.
• 43:01
  Right, right.
• 43:02
  And they'll, you know, talk about owls and salamanders and all kinds of stuff and how things didn't happen.
• 43:08
  But you know, why don't you let folks understand that?
• 43:10
  Like you understand that yet we have to responsibly unlock the value in our kind of common heritage.
• 43:18
  So good.
• 43:18
  So good.
• 43:19
  So, you know, Roosevelt, back in the early 1900s when he kind of started our conservation legacy, he kind of, that made conservation a national ideal.
• 43:30
  And part of what he was talking about is these resources should be, you know, for the most amount of people, for the longest amount of time.
• 43:37
  And that rings true to me.
• 43:39
  Like these aren't just a set aside and not do anything about, but how do we do this in responsible ways so that we're not robbing the inheritance of future generations?
• 43:48
  Right.
• 43:48
  Like we could rape and pillage and take everything we can right now, which would be beneficial in the short term.
• 43:54
  But the long term, what is that?
• 43:55
  How's that going to play out?
• 43:56
  Right.
• 43:57
  And so I'd say that in a couple ways.
• 43:59
  I already brought up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge that was established.
• 44:02
  While development is happening in the North Slope.
• 44:04
  What an amazing compromise.
• 44:07
  You're going to do all this oil and gas development over here, but over here we're going to protect this area.
• 44:11
  Right.
• 44:11
  I think that is a super awesome compromise that was come up with.
• 44:16
  When I think about oil and gas development more recently, when you think about down in Wyoming in particular, they went in there and they really nuked that landscape.
• 44:25
  And what they could have done is they could have developed that oil and gas in one spot, then behind it, you know, get that done, get it cleaned up as you're developing the next.
• 44:34
  But they kind of did it all at the same time.
• 44:36
  So the impacts that had to mule deer populations in particular, or pronghorn antelope and their, and their migration, like you were doing that all in the same place at the same time when you could have done that in
• 44:45
  phase development and cleaned up as you went.
• 44:48
  And you know, this term right now of like energy, you know, dominance, that doesn't sound like conservation to me.
• 44:55
  That sounds like a lot of money being made by a few amount of people in a short amount of time.
• 44:59
  It doesn't talk about, you know, like, let's, let's make sure that we have energy for future generations.
• 45:05
  And so I think that, that, you know, that's part of the way I'd answer that question.
• 45:09
  I would.
• 45:09
  You know, renewable energy has super impacts on the ground, you know, and, and, and how do you, how do you mitigate that?
• 45:16
  Well, again, create funds that come out of, you know, the development of those resources to know that you're sacrificing this certain area, but in other areas you're going to promote, stay out of, you know, wildlife corridors, stay out
• 45:29
  of like kind of the riparians.
• 45:30
  I mean, you're not putting renewable energy necessarily in riparian zones, but like utilize that money to do good things elsewhere.
• 45:37
  Right.
• 45:38
  Another good example historically would be the Land and Water Conservation Fund.
• 45:42
  There was oil and gas developing, happening, you know, in the Gulf of Mexico in the 60s in a big way.
• 45:47
  It was starting to ramp up.
• 45:48
  And Congress passes the Land and Water Conservation Fund to basically take excise tax or, excuse me, royalties off of the oil and gas being developed and put that into conservation and access all around this country.
• 46:01
  And so, you know, here in Montana, my home state, 70% of our fishing access sites are paid for by the Land Water Conservation Fund.
• 46:07
  So money that is coming from development of oil and gas in the Gulf is benefiting things here in Montana, which is a long ways away.
• 46:14
  That to me is forward thinking.
• 46:16
  And so we're still going to develop these resources.
• 46:18
  But one, let's stay out of like very special places.
• 46:21
  I mentioned the Boundary Waters.
• 46:22
  There's no reason, I mean, I don't know if you've ever been up there, but like it's all water up there, you know, the land of 10,000 lakes.
• 46:27
  I think it's more like 30,000 lakes, but you have this wilderness area.
• 46:31
  They want to put a mine a quarter mile south where all water flows north.
• 46:35
  There.
• 46:35
  I got this.
• 46:36
  It blows my mind that they think that that is a good idea.
• 46:38
  Right.
• 46:39
  Not to mention that it's owned by a Chilean billionaire.
• 46:42
  But that's beside the point.
• 46:43
  It's not an American owned company, but it's where we put these things and how we develop it.
• 46:48
  Right.
• 46:48
  And if we're going to think about conservation, how do you do that in a sustained fashion?
• 46:52
  And I think logging.
• 46:53
  You know, I grew up here in Montana where clear cuts used to be the way we log.
• 46:58
  We don't log like that anymore.
• 46:59
  You know, we're doing things in a much more sustainable fashion and more mimicking, I would say, nature.
• 47:06
  And so that, that logging, that timber harvest can happen in a.
• 47:11
  In a sustained way that is.
• 47:13
  Is very methodical, that actually is beneficial to the fish and wildlife versus not.
• 47:19
  And so I think that there's ways to do development that, you know, both benefit and benefit the resource and, you know, benefit the people as far as resource extraction.
• 47:29
  But this idea of energy dominance, that sounds like plunder and pillage to me.
• 47:34
  It does not.
• 47:35
  You know, it's like of the days of old.
• 47:36
  So we need to get away from that.
• 47:38
  Yeah.
• 47:38
  It's interesting too.
• 47:39
  Kind of back to the whole raising children thing.
• 47:41
  You know, I always tell my boys that all the hard work is in the middle.
• 47:44
  Right?
• 47:45
  Yeah.
• 47:45
  So to your point, that's the fulcrum that you work on.
• 47:47
  But, you know, it's like to be able to have like.
• 47:50
  I always think it's such a false framing.
• 47:51
  Like it's either a or not a.
• 47:53
  Totally.
• 47:54
  Right.
• 47:54
  And, you know, we.
• 47:55
  I think the everybody we.
• 47:56
  And not just for this, but in lots of things.
• 47:59
  The world would be such a better place if we could, you know, kind of hold two ideas in our head at the same time and talk about them.
• 48:08
  I use the word compromise, right.
• 48:11
  And that sounds like a dirty word to a lot of people.
• 48:14
  Compromise means you're giving up something.
• 48:17
  Absolutely, you are.
• 48:18
  We're also finding a path forward for everybody, too.
• 48:21
  And like, you know, an example of that would be here in Montana, where you had timber companies working with hunters and anglers, working with snowmobilers, working with hikers, working with mountain bikers.
• 48:31
  And they looked at this landscape up the Blackfoot Valley, they said, all right, we want to harvest more timber.
• 48:37
  We also want some more wilderness.
• 48:39
  But with that wilderness, we're not going to be able to use Snow machines in there.
• 48:43
  And so let's do some snow machine stuff over here.
• 48:45
  Same thing with mountain bikes.
• 48:46
  And so all those different groups, ranchers were involved as well.
• 48:50
  All these groups got together and they found a path forward.
• 48:54
  Now, was that perfect for everybody?
• 48:55
  I would say no.
• 48:57
  But was it a good enough path forward that everybody could live with?
• 49:00
  I would say yes.
• 49:00
  Right.
• 49:01
  And so working together, they compromised, which, again, a lot of people think is a dirty word.
• 49:06
  But it's also like, you know, man, if I didn't compromise, I wouldn't be married.
• 49:10
  You know, I mean, like, any relationship you have, if you're dominating that relationship, that's not going to last very long.
• 49:15
  Right.
• 49:15
  There's compromise in that relationship.
• 49:17
  And so I think we need to think about that word is not a dirty word.
• 49:20
  And when politicians in particular are thinking about how they extend, you know, an olive branch here, or they say, yeah, I don't really like that, but I want to get this done over here.
• 49:30
  So I'll say yes to this.
• 49:32
  Like, that is okay.
• 49:33
  And that's the way the world works.
• 49:34
  And I don't, you know, the way that that's portrayed in the media is that, you know, you, you sold your soul.
• 49:40
  And sure, you know, like, there are people maybe that did sell their soul, but the idea of compromise is something I think that we should celebrate versus put in the ground.
• 49:47
  Yeah, I think it's nuts to, like, think.
• 49:50
  I mean, because implicit in all this is you have to think that you or your tribe are right all of the time.
• 49:54
  And like, I don't know, like, if you put a gun to my head, I would say that's probably not true.
• 49:59
  Right?
• 49:59
  Yeah.
• 49:59
  Yeah.
• 50:01
  So, yeah, it's interesting.
• 50:02
  And so, you know, folks have seen, you know, American Hunters and Anglers on Instagram, you know, and you talked about, you know, that you, you know, you're, you're, you're like the swift boats.
• 50:11
  Right.
• 50:12
  So are people going to predominantly see you on social media or are they going to see you, you know, more active on the lobbying front kind of going down the road?
• 50:20
  I mean, kind of.
• 50:20
  What's that kind of, you know, interaction and outreach mix going to look like?
• 50:24
  It's great.
• 50:25
  So social media, for sure, is like our number one tool.
• 50:28
  It bothers me that, you know, more than half the people in America are taking their news now off of social media.
• 50:33
  You know, that's, that's frustrating to me because it's in 60 to 90 second hits, but also it's a huge opportunity, you know, to help influence that space too.
• 50:42
  And so that's really where we're focused.
• 50:44
  You'll see us, you know, in traditional stuff, you know, like Paul Smith wrote a great article about us in the Milwaukee Journal.
• 50:51
  You know, shout out to Paul and kind of that paper for continuing to have outdoor writers at his.
• 50:56
  At their paper.
• 50:57
  I think that's pretty amazing.
• 50:59
  The lobbying stuff, you know, we'll do some of.
• 51:02
  But again, that's not our main stick.
• 51:04
  I would say that podcast like this, you know, that's way different than the 60 to 90 seconds is where you can have a longer, nuanced conversation, which we've had today.
• 51:13
  And so, you know, we have our own podcast that we're ramping up this fall called The Arena.
• 51:18
  And that's back to the old Theodore Roosevelt kind of quote, the man in the arena or speech.
• 51:24
  But so see us on podcast.
• 51:26
  And then once election time rolls around, you're going to probably, you know, see us in ads in certain parts of this country, and not necessarily on TV, but, you know, probably on Hulu and YouTube and stuff like that,
• 51:37
  where we can become very targeted in certain states and certain demographics, try to tell the story and give people options to think about when they're going to vote.
• 51:46
  So those are kind of the three venues, I would say is.
• 51:49
  Is really not so much on the lobbying front.
• 51:52
  You know, I think, you know, maybe eventually, you know, I think that.
• 51:55
  But right now, you know, again, we're the ones that are creating fires and so that others can do that.
• 52:00
  Got it.
• 52:00
  And so folks wanted to get involved and support your work.
• 52:02
  Where should they go and what should they do?
• 52:04
  It's great.
• 52:05
  So you can follow us on Instagram.
• 52:06
  I think that's our most active piece right now.
• 52:08
  And that's just AmericanHuntersAnglers.
• 52:11
  No and in there, just AmericanHuntersAnglers.
• 52:13
  You can find us there.
• 52:15
  And you can do that on.
• 52:16
  On TikTok and Facebook.
• 52:17
  Facebook's probably, you know, that's the.
• 52:19
  The dying of all three, I would say.
• 52:21
  And then YouTube, you can find us there.
• 52:25
  But then our website is, is.
• 52:27
  Is nolandgrab.com and I'm stoked that we got that handle.
• 52:30
  But it's nolandgrab.com you can sign up for updates where we'll send press releases.
• 52:35
  We still do that kind of traditional press outreach that way.
• 52:38
  And you can stay, you know, up to date on kind of what we're doing there as well, if that's a venue.
• 52:42
  But Instagram is probably the best because we're most active there.
• 52:46
  Gotcha.
• 52:46
  And before I let you Hop, you know, this afternoon for me, late this morning for you.
• 52:51
  Anything else you want to share with our listeners?
• 52:54
  You know, I've kind of said this throughout, especially at the beginning, but, you know, your voice matters, and it doesn't if you don't use it.
• 53:03
  And another way to say that is that we're either at the table or on the menu.
• 53:09
  And at the table doesn't necessarily mean that you get everything that you want.
• 53:13
  But if we're not at the table, somebody else is.
• 53:15
  And we're definitely not going to get everything that we want.
• 53:17
  And so to me, you know, again, democracy is about engagement from the people.
• 53:25
  And right now is a pivotal, pivotal moment to do that.
• 53:27
  So do what you can where you are with what you got.
• 53:30
  Got it.
• 53:31
  And so we talked about American hunters, and I'll drop all those links in the show notes for you.
• 53:34
  But if folks want to kind of keep up with your adventures in the field and on the water and everywhere.
• 53:40
  Where should they go?
• 53:42
  Yeah, just landtawney on Instagram.
• 53:44
  It's like my handle, so my name.
• 53:47
  And you'll see, you know, a little bit of soccer in there because my daughter and son both play soccer, but they also spend a ton of time with me, you know, in the woods and water.
• 53:56
  So that's where you can find me.
• 53:57
  Yeah, I think I saw a duck dog not too, too long ago.
• 54:02
  I think I posted and said this is my side piece.
• 54:05
  She's.
• 54:06
  That's Tuli.
• 54:06
  She's eight years old.
• 54:08
  Absolutely.
• 54:08
  You know, one of the loves of my life that, you know, not only is a great duck dog, but a great companion as well.
• 54:14
  Yeah.
• 54:15
  Well, there you go.
• 54:15
  Well, listen, Land, I really appreciate you carving out some time for me today.
• 54:19
  Marvin, thank you.
• 54:20
  And thank you for, you know, I mean, just the opportunity to talk about these issues.
• 54:23
  Right.
• 54:23
  I mean, I think that's part of this whole thing is communication and letting people know what's going on.
• 54:28
  Absolutely.
• 54:29
  Thanks so much.
• 54:30
  Yeah, thank you.
• 54:31
  Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.
• 54:35
  Remember, links to all this episode sponsors are in the show notes.
• 54:39
  Check them out.
• 54:40
  Tight lines, everybody.