Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Appropriateness of Choreography in Competitive Dance

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Appropriateness of Choreography in Competitive Dance · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like almost every week during competition season, there's a conversation about inappropriate choreography happening on the dance teacher forums online.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this issue so covered and what can we do about it?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Today on Making the Impact, we try to answer these questions with IDA judges Debbie Stampson and Tommy Scribbins.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_06: Hello everyone, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact and Dance Competition Podcast.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_06: I am your host, Courtney Ortez, and I'm here with my co-host Leslie Mueller.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_06: Hello, Courtney.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_06: How are you doing?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_06: I'm doing good.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_06: How are you today?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: I got a new ring light, so I look very fabulous, even though nobody can see me.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I got new hair products for redheads because somebody told me I had brown hair recently and I was offended.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm just admiring my red hair in the in my new ring light.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_06: I love it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_06: I'm so glad.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_06: And you know what?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_06: I was just thinking that we have not had the opportunity to sit next to each other in a very long time for our podcast recordings.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Things got very busy.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_06: Our life are like we are just too busy.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Truly.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: It because it's not like I can just walk over to your house.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have to either take a bus or two trains or drive and then drive for like 30 minutes to find parking.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it even though you you live like a mile and a half away, it's a challenge.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I could walk.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_06: I couldo far.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: It would take me like an hour.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so it's been a while since we've been next to each other, but you know, through the wonders of technology, we can still do this.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, that's what I love about the podcast.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_06: We can sit here in our PJs, we can sign on five minutes before it's time from our home offices.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_06: And we will chat about dance from a distance.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm really uh excited for this topic today because we're talking about appropriateness in choreography competition, which is like one of the hottest topics ever in the industry for sure.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, m we're deep into the season now.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the the Dance Teacher Network Facebook pages, all of them are abuzz with all kinds of, you know, things about appropriateness, whether that's choreography or costumes or intent or themes or everything.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of the perfect timing, I think, to do this because we have a lot to say, and we have two really awesome guests that are joining us that have also been uh deep into their season judging.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got a lot a lot to talk about today.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, we do.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_06: And before we jump into this week's episode, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this one, and that is Fave Four Hair.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_06: If you are in need of some fabulous hair products to use throughout the competition season that are made by professional moms who were once dancers and now have dancers themselves, then you should check out Fave 4.
• 3:10
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• 3:13
  SPEAKER_06: They know the importance of easy-to-use, brushable, and clean products that can last through those long competition days.
• 3:19
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• 3:22
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• 3:25
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• 3:29
  SPEAKER_06: That's F A V E Fave the Number 4.com.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_06: We also have an exclusive podcast promo code to offer to our listeners to try out Fave4 Yourself.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_06: Use the code Impact15InALLCaps at checkout to receive 15% off your very first order.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_06: I know you're going to love their products and can't wait for you to try them out at your next competition.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you to Fave 4 for sponsoring us in season four.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: We also have a few Making the Impact Award winners to shout out on the podcast today.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't know already, all of our IDA affiliated competitions give out one Making the Impact Judge's Choice Award per event in the 2023 season.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: We've been doing this now for a couple seasons, and we're super excited to shout out some of those winners.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: These Judges Choice Making the Impact winners uh stood out to the judges just pretty much, it's a very general award, but it's also specific because it's it can be anything.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: It can be a dancer by themselves, it could be a dancer within a group, it could be an entire group, and it's a piece or a person that just really made an impact on our judges throughout the weekend.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we're super excited to shout out from high-demand dance competition in Baltimore, Maryland.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Congratulations to Born to Dance Studio from Vienna, Virginia, for their small group, Fame, and from the Streets Dance Convention and Competition in Dallas, Texas.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Congratulations to Pure Movement Dance and Production Company from Allen, Texas for their large group, Sweet Disposition.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_06: Yay, we love our Making the Impact winners.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_06: And if you are a recipient of the Making the Impact Award at any of our IDA affiliated competitions, don't forget to scan the QR code on the back of your award so you can get a shout out live on the podcast.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_06: All right, Dance World.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_06: It's time to jump into this very important topic that we're tackling today on the podcast.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_06: We always have these really hot topic topics over here at Making the Impact, and this is a big one.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_06: Appropriateness in choreography at competition.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_06: I'm sure we have a lot to cover in this chat.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_06: We have two IDA judges who are joining us on this discussion.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_06: And the first judge that I would love to welcome back to the podcast.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_06: They have been on the roster for many years.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_06: They have they're a fantastic dance educator and based in New York City.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_06: I've had the opportunity to dance alongside them in the New York City dance scene many times.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_06: And you may remember them from season two, episode 52, The Importance of Musicality.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_06: I'm excited to welcome back Tommy Scriven to the podcast.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome, Tommy.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, hey, hey, thank you.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_06: Excited to have you back on the pod.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_06: It's been a minute.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Excited to be here and to talk about this topic because it is so very important.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, yes.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, it is.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_06: And I can't wait to hear what you have to share.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_06: But before we jump in, if you wouldn't mind refreshing everyone's memory, since we're going all the way back to literally almost a hundred episodes ago that you were on the podcast.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_06: That's crazy to think.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_06: Please feel free to share a little bit more about you, where you grew up, and New York City credits and what you're working on now.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm originally from Florida, went to school at the Ohio State University, got a BFA in dance performance.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've been in New York for many, many, many years now and done many things.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm currently a junk professor at Marymount University in the musical theater department.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this past year I was named a legacy teacher for American Dance Machine for the 21st century, and was also named a protege with the Vernon Fosse Legacy, which is pretty cool to be able to pass on that work.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: Love it.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, you are.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: You are a legend.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: I love it.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_05: You're working with the legends, you're a protege.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_05: I need to take a Fosse class for Tommy.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_05: Love it.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_05: Are you still teaching at studios?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_05: Like competitive studios as well?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I actually dropped teaching at competitive studios so that I could spend more time choreographing and also working with professional programs and other things like that.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was time.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing it since I was 18.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it was time to take a shift.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and now you're still involved in you know judging, so you're still kind of getting that competition dance fixed and helping helping the new generation too.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And also still choreographing and all of that as well.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_05: And you teach on a dance convention?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I teach at dance conventions and all of that as well.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to give myself time to do other things besides being locked into a dance studio in that schedule.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_06: Well, I can't wait to dive into this chat with you.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_06: Thanks for being back on the pod.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_06: Our next guest who is joining us is a brand new guest to our podcast and a brand new judge on the IDA roster this season.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_06: She's also a diehard making the impact fan.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_06: I'm excited to welcome Debbie Sampson to the podcast.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome, Debbie.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_05: Hi, everyone.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks so much for joining us on this chat.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for having me.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_06: We're so happy to have you.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm very excited to have you on the roster.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_06: I'm so glad you applied for IDA.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_06: We had you go out recently on an IDA-affiliated event that I heard went so great and so well.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So wonderful.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was a great time, and I feel super honored to be a part of IDA and so many, so many great people and just a great situation.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, absolutely.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_06: If you wouldn't mind, same same deal, given uh a little bit more detail about you, your life, where you grew up, where you're based, your training, and what you're working on now.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in a small town in California, northeast, uh, towards Reno, it's um Grass Valley, and just was raised in a dance studio.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: My mom opened her own studio when I was 12 in 1984.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And after high school, I went down to Southern California and was able to just take classes and train.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my favorite teacher, Doug Caldwell, rest in peace.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love him, and just was able to just take classes and train.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I never, you know, worked as a as a professional in, you know, as a uh in that space, but I did go home and quickly took over the studio and realized that teaching was where I belonged.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And although I love teaching every age, my favorites are my favorites are like babies, three to nine are my absolute favorite favorites.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and I uh jazz is my thing, but I also do ballet and tap and musical theater.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you make me, I will sub uh, you know, other classes.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: But that's really what I'm doing.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm running the studio every it's day to day, like uh Tommy was saying, it's just it it is day to day, and you just get in and I love the kids, so that's my thing.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's the kids.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is the same studio that your mom opened that you're continuing to run.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what 38 years of studio?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 38.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: 38.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we're a small our our city or our town, I should say.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: We only have one other dance studio.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, and plenty of dancers for each studio, and you know, it's just really truly a small town situation.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Are y'all a competitive studio as well?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: We have my mom was like totally against competition, completely against it, the whole thing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if you remember Manhattan Dance Project, like years ago, before it was like in the middle of Tram, like Tremaine was out and I love dance and all that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then Manhattan Dance Project came out, which was just a convention, just you know, and she was like, We'll do that.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're gonna do.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um, that's kind of where I started, was at convention.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Nice in my younger years.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then later I convinced her when she was still involved, like, we need to really get these kids out to, you know, some convention, some real true convention, like and competition.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just the direction that it was going.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we ended up finally starting to compete.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: We only go to a convention competition maybe twice a year, and then we have we go to local convent uh competitions in Sacramento in the Sacramento area.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Nice two to three times.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's still, I mean, that's a lot.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I try to keep it, you know.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important to do.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important that the kids uh know that the world is bigger than our little small town.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: They need to see big dance, they need to see talent, they need to see everything.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's not like the focus, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not who we're becoming as human beings.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, some of them go on to dance and professional, but you know, we're all gonna go on to be professional humans, right?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so yeah, I think the life lessons.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_06: Totally awesome.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_06: Well, I'm very uh happy to have you here on this chat today and bringing that West Coast studio owner perspective to the chat.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_06: Let's jump on in to this discussion.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, Courtney, where do we even start?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: I know, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's there's so much to cover.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and this this episode is specifically talking about appropriateness of choreography.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think that like you kind of can't have it's almost it's harder to talk about one without the other, and the other meaning the music choice, the costume choice, the theme, the you know, there's so much other stuff that goes into appropriateness as uh instead of just the choreography.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure we'll talk about the whole, you know, kit and caboodle.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess I mean, just the the first question, I want to know what this and this is like so specific to every individual because everyone is an individual, but Debbie and Tommy, what do you think makes for inappropriate choreography?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for me, um, it's when you see movement that is vulgar and not age appropriate for children.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And also on that, and on the other side of that, another big thing is when I see children doing movement that is based on another culture that they don't fully understand, and they're doing it, and they're doing it in a way that just is not giving any respect to what that is.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's also a part of you know the inappropriate stuff that I see, yeah.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: As well as like taking on things that are far beyond their years of understanding.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, that's the big thing for me.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I who am I to speak for an individual?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I like to think for myself as a judge, I am a pretty good person of seeing what's in front of me and being able to tell the difference because the body language doesn't lie.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can tell whether or not someone actually understands what it is that they're doing or whether something was just put on them.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, it just makes it all very uncomfortable for me to sit and watch, knowing that this child has or this group of children have no idea what they're doing, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they're taking these adult themes put on by an adult.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's to sum up kind of like what I think of what I think of inappropriateness of dance, of choreography that is.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree that I think the intention behind whatever we're being presented with is super important to, you know, and adds to what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the kids, if they're up there doing something, doing choreography, um, be it the theme, how they're doing it, the angle that they're doing it, whatever, and they're totally clueless to how it's affecting their audience for whatever reason, that that's also something to speak to, you know, the inappropriateness.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think you brought up a good point about not being clueless as to how you're affecting the audience.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there, and that's where we come into the conversation of is this entertainment or is this art?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it's art, it's a it's a two-way street, it's communication, it's me telling you something, you receiving information and ingesting it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas sometimes entertainment is just you could walk by it, you know, it's just there.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: But if we're talking if, you know, everybody talks about, well, the dance is an art and dance is an art.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if it's an art, then you on the stage have to be aware of what you're communicating and how it's coming across.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's an excellent point, Debbie.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_06: And I think I really feel like what's important about this discussion that we're diving into right now is that we're speaking on it when it comes to the appropriateness of the choreography itself, because that is in the hands, like you said, Tommy, of an adult putting that onto children.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_06: The child's not making these choices.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_06: The kids are a completely unaware of why this is inappropriate and what is inappropriate about what was given.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_06: And that's why I think that uh and this com this is a very like sensitive discussion because we we really don't have the ability often to comment on these types of things at competition.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_06: We've been completely silenced as judges to not talk to the choreographers anymore.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_06: So that's why we want to want to discuss this because at the end of the day, it's of it's the the choreographer is at fault.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_06: The the adult is at fault for this uh situation.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_06: And if anyone you never really I always say, like, do you really want to make somebody watching uh your your dance feel uncomfortable?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_06: Is that your goal?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know if that's the goal when you're in a competition.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, of course, I want to be moved and inspired and you know, I I like feeling those feelings, but not like like cringing in my seat, like turning my head away uncomfortable.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_06: That's you never want the judges to feel that.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_06: You want them to keep your like you want them fully engaged and invested and like so in that performance, not the opposite.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_06: So if there is ever a a moment where we feel that, wouldn't you as a choreographer and adult want to know and want to own up and take responsibility for that choice and and and be told, oh, that's a little inappropriate?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_06: That's why we're having this conversation here today, because it really falls back on the teachers, the choreographers, and a little bit honestly, the parents.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_06: Because no offense, but like if you if a parent is sitting in the audience watching this, we obviously trust our teachers and we trust and hope that our choreographers are not going to put something inappropriate.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_06: But if you are watching as a parent and an outsider feeling like this deals a little inappropriate, you gotta say something.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_06: Because they're you're not the only one that's feeling that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think um to what Leslie you said earlier about speaking to artistry versus it is it's super clear to me what is presented as artistry, and I can respect that.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can go, okay, you know, there, you know, I saw a dance, it was to splish splash, and they were wearing um like uh 1950s type, you know, top and and bottom.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: But the choreography was it was true jazz, it was so super artistic, it was super cute, and there was not it didn't matter that what you know that they had a two-piece on or whatever, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But they were actually telling the story of this song.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was to, you know, the little minis were on.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't, it was didn't offend me at all.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was artistry coming in my face.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Versus, and then I, you know, you had said Courtney to like this is on the choreographers, it's on the adult.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I questioned why.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, why?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it'd be a different stuff.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, splish splash, I was taking a bath of that one.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really cute.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a cute costume that matches the theme, it matches the the time period, dances, jazz, great.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: But the minute those kids start start, you know, doing a tilt in your face with no tights on, the minute those kids start doing different choreography that is outside of the world of that piece, yeah, then then that's when it becomes inappropriate.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's, you know, there it's one thing.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if you change one move, one thing about that piece that was so cute and perfect and you know, everything about it moved towards the end goal, which was to do jazz dancing on a stage to a piece about a bathtub, you know, in a cute 50s bathing suit, you know, it's cute.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: But the minute you change something to a more modernized, you know, thought, and like I guess that's your prerogative to your that's your vision if that's you're you know, choreographer.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I I was actually looking at my phone because one of our one of our podcast fans who I'm friends with on the Facebook posted something the other night that I think is very appropriate to this conversation.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it was one of those little stories, you know, that you just you see them posted here and there.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: But the crux of it was that, you know, some knowledge, some information is too heavy for children.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And we would be horrible parents if we asked our children to bear this knowledge and to bear the burden of these adult scenarios and adult, you know, situations.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And her her comment about it was that, you know, she tries her best to keep her children children as long as possible.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's kind of where the disconnect happens sometimes in dance competition because there's there seems to be this desire to grow everybody up very quickly.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of having a very cute dance with some Lindy's and some jazz squares to splish splash, we have to turn it into something were, you know, not worse, but like more mature.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: But why?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're five.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't we do a Lindy and a jazz square in a cute, you know, polka dotted bathing suit to splish-plash and call it a day?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_06: Because that doesn't win, Leslie.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_06: Because we need because we need the uh the other dancers who are doing 500 pirouettes and doing crotch shots to the audience won.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_06: So that must mean that we like that is never the the right reasoning behind it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_06: Like, yes, it's a competition, but we have to be true to our morals and like what our expectation is for our children, and it's that's just the over sexualization of children.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: Across the board in the industry, but like this example of splish splash and how it could go wrong so quickly.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_06: One move, like you said, one move.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm thinking of a very innocent move of let's say you're upside down doing a hamstring stretch, like your hands are on the ground upside down, and then you do a flatback flip your hair up and the hands skim up the body.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_06: And if you're giving any type of like that isn't a regular jazz dance move, like flat back up, that's great.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_06: But it's how you're doing it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_06: And if they're giving me some type of like lick of the lips with the smise in the eyes, and it feels too sexual, then we've crossed the line for eight-year-olds.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_06: And someone taught them that that's what they should do there.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_06: They didn't just decide to put their lips and like touch their body inappropriately.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_06: But and again, they don't even know that's inappropriate.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_06: They were, but someone told them, this is how you should do it.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_06: Make sure you're performing, make sure, you know, all the things.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_06: So it's like we have there's like some type of disconnect somewhere in in the education and the teaching where the teachers think it's okay because it's being rewarded, parents think it's okay because it's being rewarded, but then it's coming across completely inappropriate at times for the viewer.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_06: And we we want to like eliminate that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: It comes to a three-letter word, ego.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the biggest problem is that a lot of these choreographers and teachers, they're worried about the awards, they're not worried about the education.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I know as a competition choreographer and also as an educator, I have literally, I'm like, I don't care what you get, but I want for you to have an experience and I want the judges to have an experience from your dance.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's laughing, whether that's feeling an emotion, whatever it is, it's not about what move is so hot that like maybe that's what we will make someone win.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I often tell my children, I'm like, listen, at the end of the day, I see these same five steps.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I see the tilt, I see the headstand with the straddled, with the cracks of the audience.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I see all of these steps over and over in the same thing from every studio.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then the one dance comes out that actually is about artistry and telling a story.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's when everything shifts.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you don't have to do all those things, and whether you win or not doesn't matter.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's how you affect people because at the end of the day, that's all anyone is ever looking for.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always say, you can't hug a bot mom.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: But but literally, it is the ego of people that think that if they put certain things in a routine, they're gonna win, or if they do these certain things that it's going to like make something really special.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, like I don't it it's you know, it's like I had a child that had a friend that passed away and she was very younger, so very young.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: She was like seven or eight, and she wanted to do a solo about an angel, and she it was choreographed, and that was very simple and it's very appropriate.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we want to hire children for things, but sometimes things like that happen.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the child was able to do that, but it was done in a way that the child understood what they were dancing for, and it was beautiful.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on the other side of the coin, when I'm judging, and then here comes the picture of someone set up on the stage, or someone comes in with the do-rag around their head to represent cancer, there are ways of telling stories without taking it so far because you don't know how things like that affect people.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: You want to affect them, but you also don't want to put them in a place where they feel uncomfortable in the room.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of people use these buzz things because they think it's going to make you win the competition.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: All it does for me as a judge is make it really hard for me to judge because how do you score something that really isn't very great, but it's about someone talking about cancer or somebody talking about some abusive situation in their life.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not appropriate.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not appropriate to put it out there if it's not in a way that like helps us understand your story, or the child is not fully processing something, it's also very dangerous for that child's mental health to think that like it's something to put on display in that way.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 26:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and I always and I say ego, yes, because if you were really thinking about the child, if you were really thinking about, you know, if they the best way for them to handle an oppressive situation, you wouldn't go there.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's very simple to be appropriate.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's very simple.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: It just takes time.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think I agree with you because I've said this before.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: You you put us as an adjudicator in a very, very tough position if you are you have presented work on stage that's meaningful to you about a traumatic situation, and now you're asking me to score that.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're asking me to judge your trauma with a number and a score.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that feels terrible to have to do.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of me is like, yes, I get that we want to help children process trauma through movement that is valid, that is real, that is scientific.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, if you're trained to do it properly, which means you have a master's degree in something, not me.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it also means feel free to do that, not on a competitive stage.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I'm that's where like I don't understand the disconnect having been through therapy, you know, and understanding that like, yes, people need to process trauma and some people need to do that through movement.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Never would I ever expect somebody to do it on a stage to get graded for it.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's no right or wrong way to do uh trauma processing on your own.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: That is you like privately, not in front of people, not in front of an audience that you don't know, and certainly not in front of a judge who has no idea about your background.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: All I know is your fuetes were not good, but you're dancing about your dad that had cancer.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I, what am I supposed to say to that?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like now you're gonna feel terrible because I had to give you a gold because your fuetes were not technically correct, and you're gonna be even sadder because I told you that and your dad had cancer.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I it's it's too much to put on people.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it really is.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because it as you were saying, like, it literally leaves room to cause more trauma for that child, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Listening to critiques about how they're processing something.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's awful.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, could you imagine?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, think of if if you want to put it very simple, imagine going to therapy, going out and talking about it, and then someone just basically forming an opinion about it and telling you how your thoughts and feelings are wrong.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds ludicrous.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sounds ludicrous.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So just do it, and if that sounds that ludicrous to you, then think about putting that on a stage.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's really no difference.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, there is a difference.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually, I think, a little bit worse to be honestly honest.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Flip the flip the coin and how what about the audience members or the judges that may or may not also have an emotional reaction to that, or maybe they are personally going through whatever and can't subjectively really correct you know separate themselves.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Separate themselves or the child in the audience that now doesn't can't sit in the room because of this, or you know, I mean, I can personally speak to knowing people that can't because you know, can't in a PTSD situation can't watch that.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_06: And why and we we very much, you know, elaborated on this in our triggering themes and sensitive subject matters episode that was at the top of the season.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_06: But why why would you want to risk triggering a judge?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, at the end of the day, like you're signing up for a competition to be judged to be scored by judges.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_06: The audience is there as a bonus, but the judges are are who you're trying to please.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that's why the ego gets into the way so often because we're trying to think, oh, I have to have this trick, and oh, I have to show off this, and oh, I have to do this to please the judges.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_06: But then we're taking it to another level when your goal is to trigger the judges and you don't care about their their effect or feelings in that moment.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_06: And I always say, audience members have the opportunity to leave.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_06: We don't.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_06: So why would you want to risk that where a judge might be so triggered and affected by what they just watched that they can't even verbally critique anymore.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_06: They can't even do their job.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_06: And then you're gonna go and complain that the judge didn't say anything on the critiques.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_06: That's not my fault.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_06: That's your fault for bringing this uh inappropriate theme to the stage.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I shouldn't have to risk being triggered while I'm doing my job.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_06: You wouldn't want that as like anybody going to do their job.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_06: You wouldn't want to have to say, I I was so I was so like out of out of the element because of what I just watched.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_06: I couldn't even like I'm your day is affected, and you still have seven more hours of competition.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_06: Like it's to me, it's selfish, I like honestly, and it's inconsiderate for everyone that's watching, the audience members, all ages, it's a family-friendly event.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_06: Like so many things go into it that to me it's it shows lack of an experienced choreographer and educator, number one, and selfishness from the studio.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_06: And personally, I truly think that people think that if it's triggering or inappropriate, that you will gain bonus points because of it.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_06: And again, at the at the end of the day, like Leslie said, if your fuates are bad, your fuates are bad.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_06: You're you're not getting a higher technique score because of the theme that you think is sensitive and heartwarming and awe.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_06: And this is a tribute.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_06: It doesn't, that's nice, thank you.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_06: But also your foities are still bad.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_06: So your score is not gonna be what you think it's gonna be.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, Debbie.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you're you grew up on the West Coast, although, but but this is also interesting to me that you you've mentioned a couple times that your town is pretty small, you've only got the two dance studios.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: Do you notice or have you noticed over the years like a little bit more laxness in what's presented on stage from the West Coast versus East Coast?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: I know you haven't been judging a very long time, but is there is there anything that you can speak to in regards to like the regional isms?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just you know, going to the conventions all these years too, I do prep my parents, like you're gonna see some things and not who they are.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good for you.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it is it's gonna, it's gonna happen.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and it is I think I think people are so numb.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're they just don't have a a response because I don't know why they feel why it's become a normal or why it's become an um so my perspective from the small town is it's out there and it seems it seems like it's normal and it's fine.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we go down to the Bay Area a lot for our conventions and it like is just normal.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: But then when we go, it's shocking to us because sure we are conservative.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Traveling and judging just in the Midwest, it it's just I don't know.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: It like it feels like it's across the board to me.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels like we're I think now it is for sure.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe just because I'm newer that I don't I don't have a you know, like a wide I don't I don't see the big difference.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels like it just has been accepted as normal and it's not a big deal.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I wear my bathing suit, you know, to a swim party, so why not wear my bra and wear and bathing suit on a dance stage with showing my, you know, like it just seems weird, but it's accepted for our competition industry, like it's just like a norm and an expectation.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I think a lot of people who know nothing about competitive dance, when you say competitive dance, they think they immediately think Ryan Stones, two-piece costumes, and the sexualization of children.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_06: Like, unfortunately, that is like the stereotype of competitive dance.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_06: And like while everybody's talented and artists and stuff, uh, with the rise of social media and the ability to now see what is truly happening on different regions, I think specifically on the West Coast, it's been a little bit more accepted and a little bit more lax as far as like this some suggestive movements and song choices and things that are happening out west.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_06: But now because they're s but but the kids are very talented at the same time, technically advanced, performing their faces off like gorgeous.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_06: So I think that with that, and now that everyone can see what's happening out west, it's kind of flooded across the entire country to then quote unquote be acceptable.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_06: And there's a lot of us who are still kind of scratching our heads saying, like, but how is this appropriate?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I'm I am on I'm uncomfortable watching some of this.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's the thing is because I've I was so on the West Coast for, you know, I didn't travel except for just the last, you know, three, three and a half years to the Midwest to see a difference.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I always, that's what we always expected it to be, you know, coming in.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're gonna see this.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is, you know, and nine times out of ten, I have a parent saying, Thank you for not let making our kids do that, or you know, right.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: I hear we hear that a lot, you know, that there there are definitely studios out there that are not willing to, you know, use certain music or use certain styles of dance and you know, trying to do the thing where you keep the children innocent.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and it is, it has been interesting.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Tommy, you've been judging for a long time too.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, over the past 10 years of just judging traveling around the country, I think you're right.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: It has just, it is now just sort of expected.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: You just, I'm not really surprised anymore when I see certain things.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: But but at the same time, I think, Tommy, you made such a good point and will make it again.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's really just about the ego.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's about choreographers, young or old or whoever you are, wanting so badly to A, process their own stuff, but all they have to do it on is children, because that's who they choreograph for, or they they just they want to do what they want to do with no regard to who is the one putting it out there, which are children.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're, you know, choreographing for a 16, 17, 18-year-old, you know, they are not 21.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: They are not the people, you know.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: If I I think I've said it too before, like if you want to do, you know, choreography to certain songs or you want to do certain kinds of movement, cool, fine, good for you.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: On somebody who's 18 or older.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't have those people, if you don't have a company, if you don't have friends, you know, to choreograph on, I think that's where it starts breaking down, is that oh, I just I have this idea and I want to do it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I these kids are good enough.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where you get the West Coast kids or whoever it is that is that are good enough technically to do some of the amazing technical things we see.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: But then because they're so mature technically, that I think gets twisted with well, well, well, it'll probably be okay if we make them do this song or if we make them do that move.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're they're so good.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like they deserve to be challenged.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, oh, is that challenging or is that inappropriate?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, like I and and kind of like how you started the conversation, Leslie, it's like it's there's so many factors into what makes it appropriate where the intention like from this from the teacher could be like well intended to be as appropriate as possible.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_06: Even if like I'm I'm especially thinking about something like I've seen a lot of like chair dances, dancers dances with chairs that it feels a little too mature, even though they're seniors, right?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_06: But like add the fishnets, add the heel, add the two-piece, add like certain moves on the chair that feels just like again, I'm off I'm here for learning how to work with a prop.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_06: I'm here for dancing in heels, I'm here for this more sultry style of movement.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_06: But you have to really make sure it's it's well done and and appropriate because it can it can get a little bit a little bit risky.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you can you can dance on a chair appropriately, I think.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: But but the minute you do something, if the minute that eye looks at you a funny way, the minute you wink at me or you wink at Tommy, it's over.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: It is over.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: The appropriateness level has been moved.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's the gauge has been moved up, and now you are going into territory where it is inappropriate.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely want to dig into that one for you just a little bit because please.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's the perfect example is Fosse choreography versus burlesque.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Come on, come on, here we go.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, if you look at Fosse's work, if you really look at it, like yes, it's very sexy, right?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not like eh, it's nothing like that versus like when you see the movie burlesque, they are literally that there is that person in the chair, right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_06: And that's a mature theme and an adult theme.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, uh, Fosse is mature material, but also at the same time, it still is not doing in a way that is just absolutely complete vulgar.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's tantalizing, it's great, but it's not the same thing.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's done with technique, it's done with lines, it's done with the space with subtlety and with subtlety.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not what I'm seeing.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing mostly burlesque, you know, and also hearing the songs for burlesque half the time.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm not even burl like why is that song even being used by a child?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: But um and listen, burlesque is a perfectly lovely, wonderful, amazing art form for people above the age of 18.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I love a burlesque show.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a great movie, Christina.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Aguilera's fierce.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: You are if you are not 18 or up, I don't want to see it.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it is inappropriate.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm keep going, commie.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, and it's it's actually perfect.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have two things on that.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, first of all, one of my friends did this amazing correct feed with a chair to the song Jolene.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_07: Uh-huh.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Jolene, the chair, was the gent.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so the two ladies in the piece were taking the chair and fighting back and forth for this person.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of like fighting over an actual person, which a lot of people have done, it's using the chair and using it as an object, and you can slam the chair down versus actually saving a person.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like taking that thing that like would look like fighting, but putting it on an object.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost so like there's something very smart to that.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, that takes time to think about it, but most people just want to do the easy thing, and sexy's the easy thing, right?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which goes into the second thing that I wanted to say because we were just talking about burlesque.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: You think about um musical theater nerd coming in, yeah, the movie Gypsy or the show Gypsy.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yep.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let me entertain you.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: You see, like let me entertain you.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: You see the Dainty June version.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: By the end to let me.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes into that.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I feel like a lot of times that's what is happening with all of these competitive dances and choreography, is that they're taking these songs that like and they're let me entertain you, but instead of letting it be Dainty June, they're going right to Gypsy Rose Lee instead.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not appropriate.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_07: No.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_07: You know?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 41:23
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• 41:32
  SPEAKER_06: An IDA judge will go through and critique your routine in a video critique, just like you'd receive a competition.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_06: But one of our best-selling and unique features is our additional feedback option, where not only will you be able to watch your judge critique your dance, but they will go back through from beginning to end and pause the video to elaborate even more with their professional level feedback.
• 41:52
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• 42:00
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• 42:09
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• 42:15
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• 42:24
  SPEAKER_06: We can't wait to see your dance.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, and I'm not even afraid to admit, like, I've used songs that like I'll tell you the song right away.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I used Janet Jackson's Nasty Girl before for a person under, I think she was might have been 10 for her solo.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I did yes, I cut out all the inappropriate lyrics.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: I put her in a frilly dress, I put her in gloves, lace gloves, and I called the song, I called the dance cooties.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole thing is about nasty boys, get away from me.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want cooties, get over me, you know.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's ways of taking things that like we really enjoy.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we know that song, we jammed to it.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was able to give the child all of this movement, but it was done with a theme of like, ooh, backing up, get away from me.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was about the cooties versus like the actual lyrics, it's flipping the lyrics to be appropriate for the child.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's I love that.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_06: A perfect example, too, of like song choice in in the sense of a lot of songs we hear a competition, we know the song, and the title is our first impression.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_06: So doing something like that, where everyone would have known.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_06: So, like, if you see, oh, this is nasty boy, like on the title, then you're already assuming what the song is, you're already like putting it, but then if you see cooties, I'm thinking we've Got goodies.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_06: Like that song.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_06: And then another song comes on, and you're like, okay, what's this jam?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_06: And you don't even like associate it with this what quote unquote could be inappropriate depending on how it's used.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_06: And like there's so many times, you know, we're scanning the scanning down the program.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_06: We see the song burlesque.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_06: We're like, here we go.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_06: Like we already know walking into it that like I'm already angry that you're dancing to a song to Burlesque in the 10-year-old division.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_06: I they I've seen not I've seen tons of Moulin Rouge productions lately.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_06: Tons.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_06: Why?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_06: Because it's on Broadway and it's a fantastic show.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_06: Should 11-year-olds be portraying people from the Moulin Rouge in a production number and wearing corsets and all of these things.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_06: I don't think do they even know what the what that movie is about?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_06: Do they even know the character they're portraying, which is a prostitute?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_06: I don't think they do.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like I don't are you showing them the movie Moulin Rouge?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because like there's a lot of objectionable things.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you need to like have some research be done for 10-year-olds, like I don't want to show you the movie Moulin Rouge.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: And like, let's be real, like fierce, fierce music, fierce dancing, like we all want to dance to it.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_06: But when you really step back, is it appropriate for everyone?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_06: Like I I would say, like, I don't even know if it's that appropriate for like the seniors.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, whatever.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_06: Like I will, I will let that pass to be completely fair.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_06: But like there shouldn't be like under 12 in that dance.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_06: And I see it all the time.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_06: And they don't even know the character they're portraying.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_06: And like that's a whole nother discussion on like appropriateness with like musical theater in particular, because like that just goes over so many people's heads as far as like the you know, the theme of the show.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_06: Like, have you done your research?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_06: Do you know what this is from?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_06: Do you know what part of the song this like show this song is coming from and what they're referencing and talking about in the storyline and context of this song?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_06: Just because it's got a good beat doesn't mean that it's appropriate.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_06: Like, you know, it's and again, it comes back to the total package.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_06: Like, if you flip it and spin it in a different way and create a new character story within it and not go like the stereotypical, like what we're used to, that could be different and fun and innovative and unique as long as it's appropriate.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_06: But and I've seen that done many times.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_06: I'm like, oh, we're gonna change the narrative of it of this and create our own storyline and theme that feels more appropriate versus like what the quote unquote actual musical would be about.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm like, oh, okay, like I see where you're going with this.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_06: That's fun, that's different.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_06: Good job on being unique and innovative.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_06: But most of the time, I don't think a lot of people know what they're really dancing about.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_06: I don't even think the parents know.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_06: Like, and then then I also am like, I don't even think the teachers know.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so either.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_06: And that's a concern because like you gotta do your research.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's also sad about being a judge, is I'm like, I don't think you understand what this is.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: You just put a song on, and I can count so many times.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: One of my former bosses would be playing music, and she'd be like, I love this, the kids love this.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Do you know what this song is about?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Oh my god, why'd you let me play?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I didn't let you do anything.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to know what you're doing, you've got to do your research.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so many people just let things happen.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I refuse to put anything on in the classroom before I know it.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, especially when I'm teaching younger kids, they're like, What are you playing?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Kids bop, that's it.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I put a kids bop playlist on the Partridge Family.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have time to like sift through all the music and make sure it's appropriate, but I know kids bop is gonna do it right and it's kid friendly.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: So throw that on, that's what you got.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Call it a day.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I don't have the energy to do that, and I know that at least.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_06: Right, right.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_06: There's a lot of songs that we that have like innuendos that kids don't even know what that is, and then they're jamming and singing along, you know, and then you're teaching it by the lyrics because you don't know how to count your music, everybody.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_06: So then they're singing, singing the lyrics 24-7, and it's just like these kids don't even know what they're saying right now.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's like practically as bad as a cuss word.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think the hard part with and Debbie, I want to talk to you a little bit about this music from the 70s, 80s, whenever there's there's inappropriate stuff in all kinds of music.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: But because of our distance from it and because of the way certain music has been used in different ways over time, it feels very easy to overlook.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever, it's it's raining men.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess my question for you, Debbie, when we're thinking about music and and appropriateness, how because I think a lot of the pushback that I've seen, I don't, this is not my opinion, but I've seen a lot of pushback against complaints about appropriateness, not only in music but movement and everything, is, you know, well, like we don't want to be behind the times.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: We want to be current, we want to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak, of you know, the popular dance people out there.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't want to be left behind.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: We want to be current and fun and on the pulse or whatever, but for whatever reason, on the pulse seems to be inappropriate.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so, how do you, as a studio owner and a teacher, keep your kids and your parents happy in terms of we are, we are moving forward in the industry and we are, we're not back in time, you know, just doing dated stuff.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: How how do you do that, but also stay appropriate with what you're teaching?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I have never choreographed to it's raining men, uh, proud Mary.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: Any, I I just won't do it.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I won't I won't, I don't think any of my kids have ever danced to any of the like staples that we share.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not because I it's like why to me.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so then how do we stay in with times?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: If any of them wanted to go and audition or continue their education, they have the foundation.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: They have, they have, they have the training in the foundation and touched on okay, we're gonna do a jazz dance in the style of Fosse, and here is the history.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is what Fosse was all about, this is why his style came to play.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: But no, you're not gonna also do, you know, whatever from Chicago.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would never, you know what I mean?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because so teaching the history of the dance, teaching the style, like this is what it looks like, but not, I would never, I just won't put it on display.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I also know that I've lost students because of that, honestly, you know, because like they want what's current, so then they'll go find it in another studio, or they want what they think is what's going to be make them successful, right?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I I okay, then I'm not your I'm not the place to live, you know.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been hard.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's I'm not gonna try to lie, like that's not easy.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like that situation, but I also won't do it.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just won't do it.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I mean, that's that speaks to your convictions and your morals and ethics as a studio owner and you know what you're what you're willing to do.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that also is not uh really prevalent in the dance community that I can see a lot because if if it was, we wouldn't be seeing a lot of the inappropriateness that we see.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that I think a lot of people bow to the pressure of um, you know, peer pressure is real no matter where you are or what business you're in, you know, or how professional you are.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like if your bus if your customers are leaving you because you're not doing dances to training men, then you know, you're either gonna stand in your values and bring the people who want to be with you, uh, you know, or you're gonna or you're gonna crumble and and change, you know, and what's the word I'm looking for?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Compromise.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I feel like as well on that exact same subject, it's we like everyone keeps saying like what the pulse is.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: The truth of the matter is the people that are on the pulse are usually like sucking blood from other people.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not really on the pulse, they're trending based off of what they're seeing.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: These really amazing studios or really amazing dance companies, because that's where you know, the like bra top and shorts and all that stuff that comes from seeing concert dance.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And concert dance is never really about doing anything necessarily inappropriate, it's to show the body form.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's something very different to it.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: But because you have people that are coming from concert dance and then coming into the studio, it gets manipulated.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's part of the problem is that a lot of these things that are so innovative and so actually like where it's at just gets manipulated and turned into something else and turned into cookie cutter, which is what the pulse I feel like is most of the days it's something that cookie cutter because those really amazing studios are doing innovative things all the time.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: And those studios that are really amazing like that, I don't I rarely see them doing inappropriate material.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_07: Right, right.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Their material is pretty much always artistry, and when they do hip-hop pieces, it's not shika, shaker, shaker, shika doing things that have nothing to do with hip-hop.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're literally actually doing things that are the foundation of hip-hop and they're killing it, you know.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, they're they're get they're being taught by the appropriate educators who have the his the history and the knowledge and the training, and we can tell as judges when we're trying to imitate or, you know, be we've been influenced by other studios that are maybe more advanced than us, if if you know, a studio that's coming out doing the tacka tacka tacka like hip-hop, and they think that's hip-hop, and it's like, yo, it's not.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_06: We need to see actual foundational elements of hip-hop dance.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_06: And I can tell based on it's not about how much you booty shake, it's the execution of the style.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_06: And like, then it doesn't help that like mom and dads are like, yeah, like screaming every time there's like twerking happening on stage, which like twerking is it it's an acceptable form of movement if done properly in the correct style and learnt like what this means and the history of it and how to do it properly and not to do it for the crowd to go wild and seven-year-olds doing it because the hip hop teacher thinks this is acceptable.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_06: Like it just there's so many aspects to it, and as judges, we can tell when it's when someone's doing something to follow a trend and imitate versus being properly trained.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_06: And there's a there's such a difference, and that is hand in hand with appropriateness because it's exactly it's inappropriate for you to be, you know, not teaching your children the foundational elements of these styles.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_06: You know, it's like that's inappropriate in itself.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_06: I you're not getting what you're paid for in that moment if you just think, oh, well, this is what's winning, and we're gonna throw this in there.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_06: And when I'm sitting here as a judge, like, I've seen that head spring done poorly 500 times, and you're just doing it because it's trendy, it's inappropriate that you're that you as a teacher even think it's acceptable to put that into this dance because it's not properly, it's not safe.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_06: Like safety comes into play with inappropriateness as well.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, safety in dance and execution.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_06: Like it's inappropriate as a teacher to think this is acceptable to demonstrate on stage and have them practicing over and over incorrectly.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_06: Like we have to have there has to be a moment where we f sit down and say, we gotta go back to basics.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_06: It's I'm not I'm doing you a disservice by keeping this in there, and when you're doing it wrong over and over again, like we have to, you know, step take a step back and look at the training.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_06: And it's hard for teachers to really uh accept that sometimes when scores will reflect it, critiques will reflect it.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_06: It's a matter of if they're actually like, you know, following through with that.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_06: Because another thing I want to really get to very quickly as we're wrapping up this chat, um, is one of the main things we hear all of the time on the forums everywhere is well, the judges aren't doing anything about appropriateness because why is the why is that dance winning first overall when it was so inappropriate and they were doing inappropriate movement and the song was inappropriate and they were wearing such skimpy costumes, but they still won first, and obviously the judges they just keep rewarding it.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_06: So what are your thoughts on on that, those comments that you know you've you've heard it, you've seen it.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_06: As a judge, what are your thoughts on that?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't reward it, to be completely honest.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would rather get yelled at by the owner, and I'm like, if you don't like it, then absolutely please change it.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I refuse to I refuse because I'm speaking and talking to these students and they're hearing me directly.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's my name.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm working for a competition, I want to represent them, and I want to take care of them, and I make sure that I'm appropriate, but I'm also not going to sell in my name, I'm not going to give in to that.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: I will judge the technique and I will judge all the other things, and I will try and get around that as much as I can to the best of my abilities.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's bad enough, like I'm I I I I just won't.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't reward that.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: I like to speak, okay.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, you know, speak to the teacher choreographer here.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe watch that angle of that, but then, you know, or whatever I'm gonna say to the teacher.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then I wanna, I always try to go back to the dancer and say, okay, I'm looking at you, and you are a very talented, you know, I can see you've worked, I can see you put in the effort and the and you, you know, you all this stuff.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: There are is so much you can do.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's growth to be had.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: And look, you don't have to do that same move that you just did 14 times.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there it is again.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can see that you can do a like tilt, and there's that bad angle.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, but I don't want to, you know, and then let's grow you as a dancer.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and so then I will always want to put that seed in the ear.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can be grown as a dancer.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: We don't we don't have to live in this this space, but I do get grumpy.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't be grumpy.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard not to, it's hard not to.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_06: It's very hard not to get grumpy as judges.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_06: And I always say, like, I wish that people would listen to our critiques in chronological order of how they went throughout the weekend because you our tone, you know, that tone is such a hard part of judge critique, but we do absolutely you, anyone would if you had to sit there for 15 hours and watch the same mistakes over and over and over from the same studio over and over, and they can't hear you, they don't hear you until after the event's over.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_06: So you're, you know, how many times can you say something in the same day without your tone shifting just slightly?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_06: And we don't mean it.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_06: We don't mean it coming across that way, but we it's just very frustrating for us because it's usually like a studio-wide habit that's across the board that we're just like, okay, how many more times do I gotta say this?
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_06: And it's like, and we don't we don't mean it like that.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_06: But like when it comes to the appropriateness, I think that the hardest part for us as judges, and I want to defend the judges for a split second, is that I think that every judge across the industry wants to be able to speak out more about appropriateness and wants to be able to do something about the appropriateness.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_06: We're having conversations like this on purpose so competitions can hear us.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_06: So you can understand as a listener what we what our job is and how, like Tommy said, you're like, I'm not going to not say something.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_06: If you see something, you're gonna say something that you're able to use your voice in that moment.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_06: There are not times, there are not, it's not always an option on us to be able to use our score as our voice.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_06: And that is unfortunate for our industry because we are following like guidelines from our the people that we're working for.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_06: We don't want to lose our job.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_06: We don't want to say, oh, well, they they always scored appropriateness zero out of 10.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm not hiring them again.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_06: Like that's what could happen.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_06: And we don't want that for us.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_06: So the only way that I think that things are gonna change is by having conversations like this, and then also for the parents and the teachers to speak to the competitions because they're the ones that are really making these choices, not the judges.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_06: And we our hands are so tied, and we wanna we want to eliminate those inappropriate dances from winning.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_06: But when we're told to only judge what the dancers are given, that's when our hands are tied because the dancers didn't make that choice.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_06: And again, that's why we're having this conversation because it's at the end of the day, it is the choreographers, the dance teachers, and the parents who have allowed the the adult figures in their life to allow this to be even stepping foot on the stage.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_06: So until the pa until the adults make change, then we we really it's hard for us to be the change as judges.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, I mean, for listeners to to make sure you do if you decide, like let's say you go to X competition and everything that wins is horribly inappropriate and you're very upset as a parent, go back.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: You need to, yeah, first of all, don't go back.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not really your decision as a parent.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's the studio owner's decision.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you as a parent or a group of parents, if you're unhappy, you need to approach your studio owner and hope that they agree with you.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I would assume that, like, you know, most people would agree, like, okay, that was not fair.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: These whatever happened, you know, poor, poor choices got rewarded and we don't want to go back there.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, studio owners, studio owners are why competitions have a business.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: You are the customer.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you have the power.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: You have the power of as a studio owner to contact that competition and say, we won't be returning because of this.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: If you can promise me you're gonna remedy this, maybe we'll consider coming back.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: But there's no way, again, we we are the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to creating change, the judges.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: It has to come from, you know, a little bit higher up.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, we we can't really do much, you know.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: I it's not gonna take me, Courtney, Tommy, and Debbie to say, you know, we we need to not reward this.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well, because we're already not rewarding it in the best way that we can in order to also keep a roof over our heads.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I want to like top that off with convention owners, you have a responsibility as well.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because there have been many a times where I've been judging, especially being a male, that I've been watching things I've had like female dancers that are like 13, like doing a straddle in front of me and looking at me dead in the eyes and winking at me or making a face, or even seeing like male dancers come in front of me and lift up their shirts and like rock their bodies and lick their lips.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to see that.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and also like knowing that I can't necessarily comment on it, something I do as a judge is that I will like write a note and send it to the director, and I'm like, this happened.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: I really think you need to let the studio owner that this is uh inappropriate, yeah, and that you should maybe shift this.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like if you know, people that are owners convinced as directors and things start to do this and actually address the studios, it's another way of actually combating this because as a like say they did win, but if a director, someone comes up and says, Hey, I just wanted you to know that I was speaking with the judges, great work with the material, but also the material was a little inappropriate and made them uncomfortable.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we wanted to make you aware of that, and so that maybe you could make a shift.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't want to say anything on the tape because we didn't want to offend the children or have them hear something or question who you are as a teacher, but we want you to know that this is how our judges felt and they didn't want to penalize for it until you could actually make a chance to actually shift it.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like if there's this back and forth between the parents and maybe the studio choreographers and also the owners, just to like all these people to like actually talk and communicate instead of letting their EGO get into it, I think ultimately at the end of the day, like that's the best way to help the children out.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_06: I I want more conversations like that being had because even if that's that note gets passed down, you have no idea if that conversation's being had between the director of the competition and the studio.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_06: And that's unfortunate because you're trying to do better as a judge.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_06: You're trying to, you know, make people aware of this issue in the industry and do the right steps to not save your job and not lose your job by speaking out and not having your score reflect on it, but doing it in a discrete way where the conversation can be a learning experience and a growth opportunity, and you have no idea at that point if it just got thrown in the trash or actually action was taken.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_06: So, like there needs to be more conversations like that.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_06: And at the same time, like in the situation of if you like Leslie's situation and scenario of if you went to an event that you were dissatisfied with inappropriate material being awarded, when you call the competition saying we're not coming back because of X, Y, and Z and all of this inappropriateness being rewarded, and the competition comes back and says, please come back, we we will fix this next season.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_06: How are you taking action?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_06: How is the competition?
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_06: What are they actually doing?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_06: Are they actually going to add an appropriateness score box and allowing the judges to use it?
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_06: Because you can have it there all you want.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_06: But if we can't touch the score, how is it how are we applying action?
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I think that the studios need to speak up more and ask for these types of demands.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_06: And I see it all the time in the forums, but it's just a matter of like, when are the competitions going to listen?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_06: When are they actually going to be like not afraid to risk potential business to save the children?
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and you know, I think people could argue like, well, we we could risk our potential.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, we are all of us are freelancers.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: We are all contract contract labor.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: The competition, like they're they're the ones, like you said, yes, maybe they're afraid to lose business and lose customers, but you have, you know, dozens and dozens of events.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_02: You have dozens and dozens of customers, hundreds of customers.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we judges have maybe, maybe we have 20 events a year.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you are a booked and blessed judge, maybe you're working 20 weekends a year.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_07: Maybe.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and like it's just, it's really just numbers.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't, I can't risk my livelihood.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, I will stand up for what I believe in and stand in my values as long as it doesn't terminate my position.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I want to do the very best I can by my job, by my values, by your children.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_02: But if I'm not allowed to based on the person who hired me and their rules, then I'm stuck, you know.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's gotta come from the top.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's gotta come from you as the top of your organization as a studio owner, demanding change from the top of the organization you're paying money to.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just a cog in the in the machine, you know?
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_06: I think that change needs to happen.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_06: And I've seen slow very slow like starts of it.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_06: It's just a matter of like how how enforced is it?
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_06: You know.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_06: How widespread can it can this go?
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_06: Competitions can quote unquote say we care about being appropriate, we're family friendly.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_06: But when that dance gets on stage, what are you doing?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_06: What are you doing?
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because are you stopping the music?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are you are you stopping?
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, are you disqualifying the dance?
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_06: Are you allowing the judges to score it as low as possible?
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_06: Are they are they disqualified from overalls?
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_06: No, most oftentimes not.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_06: So what really are you doing?
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_06: So I like it's it's it's it's a fine line on the competition's end, I think, and I understand their hesitation, but I think we're all at a point where we're super frustrated with it.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_06: And as judges, I know we we definitely are, because there has been that shift, like we talked about from West Coast kind of like everybody we're expecting to see something that's inappropriate in one way or another at competition these days, and because of that, because of how the industry has evolved into that, there needs to be repercussions for it.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_06: And it we have to protect the the kids.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_06: The appropriateness for this age range of children at a family-friendly event across the board for themes, songs, costuming, moves, all of it.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's no excuse.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um especially in the There is no excuse.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: Especially with everything that's coming out, what happens behind the scenes a lot of times, you know.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is perpetuating that, you know, the inappropriateness, the oversexualization.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: It it's perpetuating it, and you're putting who whoever you are, parent, dance teacher, dance studio owner, choreographer, are putting that student on the stage, uh, you know, as a like a victim to possibly or a possible, you know, I don't know, no excuse situation.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's very true.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's and I gotta say, like sometimes I know as a judge, like I kind of uh bump heads with other people a lot, but not a lot, but like other people in conversation because I refuse to back down about these things because whether or not people feel that it's you know, ill, it's innocent, whatever, I that's not how it works.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's right and there's wrong.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: And just because it's uncomfortable for you doesn't mean you should let it go.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you know a song's inappropriate, you don't just say, oh, whatever, you know, I don't care.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not that deep.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do we have to make everything this or that?
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's more than that.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have to take care of the children around you.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is, is like the sooner you start doing it, the sooner that precedent is set.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just keep sweeping in under the door and not caring, or just because it's hard.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think that you know, I hear a lot of the the pushback on that is well, they're gonna they hear it on the radio, they're already listening to it.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, shouldn't somebody, somebody should protect the children?
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now I just sound like a broken record because if if not us, then who?
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: If the parents aren't gonna do it, if you're just letting your kid listen to whatever, that's on you.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but but you know, some somebody has to do it.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody has to at least, you know, expose them, and not only, you know, and I get on a soapbox about this too.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there is more music out there than the top 40.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot very appropriate.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_02: And why not give them something that is new and different that you don't hear on the radio and that isn't questionable, you know, like why not?
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's where I feel like, you know, dance educators have so much more responsibility than just teaching dance steps.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: And at this point, you know, so many kids spend more time at a dance studio than they do at their own house that like we we are the people responsible for for playing music that's you know, music's an earworm.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: Music sits in your head, it goes over and over.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're hearing, you know, and like there's I don't know anything about the psychology of that, but like surely it will affect you if you're hearing all kinds of inappropriate stuff constantly.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, let's let's give them the appropriate things and the interesting and different and fun.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, music is just such a wide array of of things, and it doesn't have to be inappropriate.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: And now now we're on music, but yes, exactly.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_06: It's such a like like we we truly said this multiple times, but it really is the full uh aspect, and it can just be one of those things that makes it inappropriate.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_06: You know, the the song could be so inappropriate, but the movement's so innocent, right?
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_06: But the song's still inappropriate, right?
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_06: Or the opposite.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_06: The song is so innocent, but every move you're doing is so inappropriate, or that costume in your face, exactly and your expression on how you're executing the movement and their performance, like you know, this that is a whole nother topic.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_06: And like you hinted at it, Tommy, with like being that male on a judging panel and the uncomfortableness, like we've predominantly seeing female identifying dancers hit the stage, and then being a male identifying judge that is taking this in.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_06: And like, I just always think of what is dad thinking, what is grandpa thinking in the audience?
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think about it all the time.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Even more so, you don't know these people in the audience, right?
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know who's there who are you're putting your child on display for complete strangers who most likely have are under the influence of something because there are not a lot of parents watching who are sober.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, that isn't true, they're always drinking on the event, and especially like when you have nationals and things like that where you're at casinos and things like that.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like anybody can walk into the door.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, and as a director, you know, I get backlash all the time to my staff, to me, to just generally parents don't understand why they cannot film.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_02: They don't understand because everybody's so used to being able to film everything.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I have no idea who you are, sir.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't you told me you're that child's parent.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: How am I supposed to know that?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: You could be some person from the side of the road who's who came in here because you want to film a child in her tilt.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you have like there are rules for a reason.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the rules of like, number one, you are putting your child on display, like Tommy said.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be a perfectly innocent, lovely display of splish-splash, and it's very cute and we love it.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_02: But there could also be, you know, a sex offender in the audience.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: We do not know.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: We do not know.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And until there's some kind of overarching, you know, rule in the competition industry, which will only happen if everybody gets together, which is not gonna happen.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not hopeful.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, to to make sure that this is a ticketed, you know, event where I know who you are.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Then no, you can't you can't film your child solo, even though you could film your child's baseball game.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: We have to protect the children.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it used to be.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't get into the room unless you had like an ID or something.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Proof that says that you were an observer or you know, it's not like that anymore.
• 1:12:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a different world.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I think we do have there is a contingent of parents out there who do understand that and who are, you know, a little bit more discerning when it comes to what they're letting their children do or watch or listen to.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_02: But but it does seem kind of over over the past several years, it's like anything goes and it's it's concerning.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_06: Oh yeah.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_06: I agree.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_06: I think we could talk all day about this, but unfortunately we have to wrap up the episode.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_06: Y'all, this was a very uh helpful, informative, eye-opening discussion.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_06: I'm sure so many listeners are like, their mind may be blown at this moment, or they might be sitting there nodding their head in agreement, like, yep, I completely agree with you.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_06: So uh I'm really glad.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_06: And I I just want to say like yes to us for having these types of conversations and like thank you to Tommy and Debbie for being open and willing to share your perspective on this.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_06: I think that it's uh like a step in the right direction to make the change for our dance world and industry, especially where it's going.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_06: And we're over here making the impact.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_06: We're gonna keep having them.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, we've we've talked about a lot of different topics in the comp world, and this is one of the major ones.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm really grateful for you both for being here today for this.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_06: How we'd love for you to lead us out.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_06: It's just one final thought on this topic about appropriateness at competition and in choreography.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just like to say to the carvers, just think before you give students steps.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Think before you give the music.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know sometimes we like to do what's comfortable for us, but you don't realize how uncomfortable it could actually turn out for the child.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So just put extra thought in the work that you do.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, it's so much more rewarding to have something that's different and special and thought out for the child versus that easy way to go.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Courtney and Leslie, for having this forum for us to discuss.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I would say is if you yourself as a parent or a choreographer or studio owner wouldn't be comfortable wearing that costume, doing that leg tilt in front of you know, grandpa and grandma sitting right there, rethink what's happening.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: If grandma and grandpa might be offended hearing that music or seeing their granddaughter with that face, or their grandson, or whatever, maybe rethink, rethink and protect the kids that are out there.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Protect them.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_06: Thanks for tuning in to this week's chat, all about appropriateness of choreography at competition.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_06: Be sure to follow our special guests on social media.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_06: You can find Debbie at Pamela underscore dance and Tommy at TommyToes Debbie.
• 1:15:26
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• 1:15:35
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• 1:15:41
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• 1:15:49
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• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_06: Are you looking for even more personalized, in-depth feedback from your standard judges critiques that you've been receiving at competition this season?
• 1:16:03
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• 1:16:15
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• 1:16:27
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• 1:16:38
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• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Rounding out season four, stay tuned for episodes on how to avoid burnout, diehard dance dabs, and tips on changing studios.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_06: We hope you're enjoying season four.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_06: We'll see you next week.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_06: Until then, keep dancing.