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Strictly Come Hamster - The Orphans (Birthday Special) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:35
Welcome back to Strictly Come Hamster.
0:37
My name is Joe Ford and this is a slightly different episode
0:42
from usual today. I'm going to be completely
0:45
egotistical now and say this episode is coming out on my
0:48
birthday, and the reason I'm doing this is so I can push
0:53
aside all the bullshit affirmations that you get from
0:55
people on your birthday and just advertise a podcast instead.
1:00
So and we have chosen our guests very, very carefully.
1:04
Haven't we, Rod? We absolutely have.
1:06
We have got two guests who were with us on two of our very
1:10
earlier shows. Let's introduce them straight
1:13
away. Let's break with protocol.
1:15
Michael, please introduce yourself.
1:19
Hello, I'm Michael Mills. I was on the very first, oh so
1:23
long ago edition of Strictly Come Hamster where we talked
1:27
about all the wonderful Jolly Christmas specials and taught
1:30
Toby Haydock to hate. In those halcyon days when we
1:34
were all very polite and nice to each other and my God.
1:38
I did go back and listen to that, right?
1:40
And God, we're so nice. Things have changed since then,
1:42
guys. Just be warned, all right?
1:44
Yes, it's got, it's got a lot more brutal, hasn't it to be
1:46
fair and James. Yes, I'm James Lark and I
1:50
appeared on the Strictly episode where we discussed Pertwee's
1:54
penultimate season and I mounted a now legendary defence of the
2:01
monster of Peloton. So good that apparently that it
2:04
persuaded everyone to keep it in, and I look forward to doing
2:07
the same for Legend of the Sea Devils.
2:09
Today you got. Luck with that, James.
2:13
So persuasive that Monster of Peloton ended up in the final
2:16
two somehow. Yeah, I don't.
2:19
I think he's on a bit of a stickier wicket, maybe with
2:22
Legend of the Sea Devils. But hey, we'll.
2:23
Find. Out stranger things have
2:25
happened in this podcast. I mean, Space Pirates went
2:28
through to the final two. Well, two weeks ago we did
2:30
record Series 9 and just in case it hasn't come out yet, I won't
2:34
tell you what won that, but you're all going to be for a
2:36
terrible surprise when it does come out.
2:39
And and what came second from bottom as well.
2:41
So yeah, some shocks in store. So everybody's asking what are
2:45
we doing tonight? We are doing the eight orphan
2:48
episodes. So we've already done the
2:49
Christmas episodes, we've done the New Year episodes.
2:52
So we are covering the other eight Orphan specials and they
2:56
cover all four eras of New Who. So we have got Plants of the
3:01
Dead and Waters of Mars from Russell from his first go round.
3:05
We've got Day of the Doctor from Steven Moffat, We've got Legend
3:08
of the Sea Devils and Power of the Doctor from Chibbers Stop
3:12
Smiling Joe. And finally, we've got Star
3:14
Beast, Wild Blue Yonder, and The Giggle from the second RTD run.
3:20
So it would have a flutter here in all those titles, you know
3:23
what a run of stories. So yeah, so let's get into it.
3:27
And helping us sort out the teddy bears from the hobby.
3:30
Horsens which go clipty clop down the Stratha.
3:35
We are going to decide which story is going to win the
3:38
location glitter ball and which is going to be forced to play
3:41
ball with Joe in his pants. And yes, I did have to be very
3:45
careful the way that I said that.
3:48
But Joe, you've already touched on it.
3:51
I didn't think. Maybe.
3:53
Touched on it. I suppose just to touched it,
3:57
there is a special reason why we're doing these specials today
4:00
and it is because it's a certain person's birthday on the day
4:04
that this podcast launches. So with no further ado, and
4:08
without Joe's knowledge, I'm going to hand over to our music
4:11
maestro Mr., James Lark. Oh, sure, as you've got now you
4:18
can all join in with this at home, because we know that music
4:20
doesn't work terribly well on Zoom.
4:22
So after three all together, now 123.
4:25
Happy. Birthday to.
4:29
You happy birthday to you. Happy birthday.
4:40
Happy. Birthday to you, I don't.
4:45
Think I've ever been this embarrassed to a month before my
4:49
birthday. But it's coming out on your
4:52
birthday, which is important. Thanks guys, but it doesn't end
4:57
there. Dear listener, please indulge
5:00
our little bit of self indulgence for this one episode.
5:03
But it is Joe's birthday, and so we have talked to a couple of
5:07
our strictly guests from previous episodes and they wish
5:11
to send birthday wishes to Joe. So Joe's looking very perplexed.
5:16
Hopefully he knows nothing about this whatsoever.
5:19
So let's go to the comments. As I usually say, we're going to
5:23
start with Mr. Toby Haydock, who guessed it on our first episode.
5:28
Who says Joe, Joe, Joe wishing you a very happy birthday.
5:33
I hope it brings you all the joy you give to so many others.
5:37
That wasn't meant to sound rude, but I suspect you can twist it
5:40
to undermine my genuine sentiment with filth.
5:43
Anyway, I heard people were sending birthday messages, so I
5:46
thought I'd give you one. And as usual, for me, it's a
5:49
long one. A big long one.
5:52
That's a bit of a mouthful. It'll probably fill your inbox.
5:55
Oh God, what have I become? Happy Birthday, you horrendous
5:59
but beautiful man. He's Pale fartelia.
6:06
I have one from Sy Heart who says happy birthday to one of my
6:09
favorite people in the world who doesn't specify who.
6:12
A great friend, tremendous podcaster are one of the all
6:15
round most wonderful people. I imagine you'll hate having
6:18
this read out. So finally I get the last word
6:20
on telling you you're brilliant. Happy birthday my friend.
6:24
This is so fucking self indulgent isn't it?
6:27
Well, the next of these quote UN quote bullshit affirmations
6:31
comes from Croton fancier Fraser Gregory.
6:34
Well done on surviving another trip around the sun and for
6:37
managing to shine that little bit brighter as you've done it.
6:40
Here's to many more sparkling days to come.
6:42
Many happy returns. And now if you can send payment
6:45
by Amazon gift card, that would be fabulous.
6:48
Mr. Nathan Bottomley from Down Under says Hey Joe.
6:52
It's been 3 1/2 years since we started sharing our lives from
6:55
such a long way away, and it's been just about the best thing
6:58
that's happened to me in that time.
7:00
Peace and long life and happy birthday, He's.
7:04
Mad, isn't he? Luke Lloyd says Happy birthday
7:08
Joe, you fabulous gorgeous who DILF.
7:11
Have a wonderful day. I hope this year Chip finally
7:13
gives you a blowy so you can stop praising his work and
7:16
become the Moffett fan I know you are.
7:18
Deep down love ya. And Mark Cockrum says You are
7:22
such a kind and generous guy. I'm proud to count you among the
7:25
friends I've made over the years.
7:26
You've done a lot to make podcasting, and in particular
7:29
the Ham Fam, A welcoming place where people from different
7:32
walks of life get together and talk about what they love and
7:35
sometimes don't about our silly old show.
7:38
I was disappointed to find that Steven Moffat doesn't do cameo
7:41
messages, but I'm hoping that this little note from me will do
7:44
instead. Oh, that would be the best gift
7:46
ever, wouldn't it? And.
7:48
After Joe Ford. And wear it to her and and
7:53
Sophie Aldridge as well. The next message Message from
7:56
Sophie Aldridge. The next message is from Sophie
7:58
Aldridge Oh. No.
7:59
Fucking dare you. No, the next messages is from
8:04
Stephen Bay heading back down under again.
8:07
My dear generous Joe, you're an incredibly special person, not
8:12
just to me, but to so many others, and celebrating your day
8:15
cannot go unpunished. I mean unacknowledged.
8:18
What you do for others is far above and beyond, not least for
8:21
your friends. And it's no stretch to say your
8:24
prestigious output for the Hamster Extended universe has
8:27
kept me sane during some difficult times over the years.
8:31
I'll always be thankful for that.
8:32
And for you. Happy birthday You Beautiful
8:35
man. Tell me this is nearly over,
8:38
please. It's nearly over.
8:39
Oh, thank God. Three more pages.
8:43
Joe Short has sent a poem to what?
8:45
Showing the rest of you up. Happy Birthday, lovely Joe.
8:48
You're the ham fam's biggest hoe, Loved by all both North and
8:52
South. Big of heart and big of mouth.
8:54
The podcast King, the podcast Lord, the gorgeous mighty cool
8:58
Joe Ford. Us silly bitches all love you
9:01
more than Tooting Becky Yeti on the loo.
9:03
May your pen knife never get blunt.
9:05
And I'm not rhyming that word in the poem.
9:13
Lucy has signed a Pam Ass. Oh, at least Lucy McCall has not
9:19
sent a poem she's just written. Happy birthday for the to the
9:22
wonderful Joe, leader of the ham fam and a thoroughly splendid
9:25
chap lately, you are the leader. Of course you're the lead.
9:28
She sounds like a bloody fascist.
9:30
You're a cult. Leader.
9:31
At least it. Has been Sergei.
9:32
He's a right colt, Peter Lambert says.
9:36
Huge thanks for running down Mark of the Rani Hills with me,
9:39
Boosley, blowing a Patrick and waiting patiently for me to
9:43
reveal the true meaning of the demons.
9:45
Most of all, of course, for allowing the uneducated masses
9:48
to benefit from being enlightened about the true value
9:51
of Orphan 55. Happy Birthday.
9:55
Jason Thompson says Happy birthday to the one who got me
9:58
into this podcasting thing thanks to your warm and
10:00
welcoming style. I've never met you before.
10:02
We did the first one, but after credit chat, the commentary
10:05
itself felt like watching who with an old friend.
10:08
Thankfully with Rob being responsible for the scheduling,
10:10
this is a better than average chance of being read out at the
10:12
appropriate time. Many happy returns on chat.
10:15
What a bitch. But very true.
10:18
And finally, thank God you hot for TV's Dylan Reese.
10:23
Who he is. Happy birthday to the man who's
10:26
had more people inside him than passenger in flux.
10:32
Thanks for the lulls, the debates, the arguments, the
10:34
smart and the love. PS The Star Beast is still shit.
10:39
Do you notice the only person who didn't send a birthday
10:41
message was my Avarar. What a Git.
10:45
I mean if the way that he chose to say his birthday to you was
10:48
via a pre recorded podcast, it might be.
10:51
Slightly alarmed? Yeah.
10:53
You think that's called a red flag?
10:55
I have done a lot of very indulgent things on Habits of a
10:58
Blonde pen Knife, but listen to 10 minutes of birthday messages
11:01
a month before my birthday. This is the most indulgent thing
11:05
ever. Thank you very much everybody
11:07
and. What's a good rod to make?
11:09
Wasn't Rod good at making it sound like you hadn't asked us
11:11
to do that? I don't think you did, actually.
11:15
Those are all generated by AAI. Was that, well, fair enough?
11:19
Fair enough. That poem was great.
11:22
Good old Joe Short. She's marvellous, isn't she?
11:24
That poem needs Jon Perche reading it over a slightly funky
11:27
beat whilst McCoy plays the spoons.
11:31
Wake up with a bloody show now, please.
11:33
Yeah, enough of this self indulgence.
11:35
I was trying to segue because Dylan's last one mentioned the
11:37
Starbeast, and that was a perfect segue into actually what
11:40
we're here to talk about tonight.
11:42
Say one thing to you Rob, before we do go into the episode.
11:45
Well played there my friend. Thank you.
11:47
I will get you back one day, don't you worry.
11:50
Hopefully a long time in the future, right?
11:53
Let's go to the first story. Let's start with James.
11:57
Oh well. Pick your story of.
12:01
Choice. Well, let's just get rid of some
12:04
dross I want to bin Planet of the Dead.
12:11
OK, so superficially, I think there's quite a lot to like
12:15
about Planet of the Dead. Now, Full disclosure, I had
12:20
slightly fallen out with Doctor Who by the time it reached this
12:23
point in the show. I was finding it insufferably
12:26
smug. I was finding the David Tennant
12:29
Doctor not to my taste at all, and the whole production had a
12:35
kind of an aura of self satisfaction that I've I found a
12:39
bit difficult. I say that partly because when I
12:42
went into watching this, I went in deliberately.
12:45
I've not. I've watched Planet of the Dead
12:46
since it was broadcast. I went in with the openest mind
12:49
possible. I was really determined to give
12:51
this, you know, a fair hearing. I also, and this is slightly
12:56
relevant, I watched it with a friend of mine who was staying.
12:59
She's an opera singer called Jenny.
13:00
She she was staying when I had to watch this stuff and she
13:03
said, oh, I'd love to watch a Doctor Who.
13:05
And I thought to myself, I'm not sure this is the the best entry
13:07
point, but she's never seen Doctor Who before.
13:10
But you know, do you know what this is?
13:11
This is Doctor Who from a point where it was she's very popular.
13:15
Let's sit down and watch Planets of the Dead together and maybe
13:17
she'll be able to cast her own opinion on this.
13:22
That would enlighten me. And one of the.
13:26
Well, I did. I mean, I found Tennant in this
13:29
far less annoying than I was expecting to.
13:31
I did ask her what she thought of the Doctor and she said he's
13:34
sort of attractive and repulsive at the same time, isn't he?
13:39
Which I sort of feel like it does sum up how how I feel the
13:43
Doctor is at this point. But I didn't find David Tent
13:45
nearly as annoying as I thought I was going to.
13:48
I think possibly because there are so many other things in this
13:50
production that are much, much more annoying than that.
13:53
And sorry for stating the obvious, but the first of those
13:57
is Lady Christina. I feel like we're in a weird
14:04
state where no one wants to write The Doctor a companion
14:07
because we know it's coming to an end.
14:08
So instead they kind of retool a companion from the proposed
14:12
season Season 27. I don't know how deliberately
14:14
this was taken from Carmel's idea for kind of post ace
14:17
companion, but Lady Christina is a safe cracking lady of of some
14:26
kind. Is seems to be taken from that
14:29
that kind of vague character description that we've already
14:30
heard and she is from the word go really, really annoying and
14:39
she continues to be annoying throughout to the point.
14:43
And so my friend Jenny, who I think kind of felt betrayed on
14:47
behalf of the entire female gender was by the end just
14:53
screaming at the television, you know, the the all the way
14:58
through the just sort of these serious situations.
15:00
And you know, the worse it gets, the more I love it.
15:03
And when the doctor says it's her, it's the body heat is
15:07
warming up the Stingray. She says why?
15:09
And to have that effect on men. And it's just, do you want to
15:12
just get over yourself? And it culminates in this non
15:17
consensual kiss, which I am not a fan of in Doctor Who.
15:20
I mean I could do with less kissing anyway, but I feel like
15:22
you wouldn't least ought to kind of feel that it's been asked
15:27
for. Whereas this is just kind of
15:29
forced on him and a bus full of people applaud God knows why.
15:32
So just to get out of the way, the obvious complaint, which is
15:35
that she's annoying, but but I find other things about this
15:38
annoying as well. I I'm afraid I find Malcolm
15:41
annoying. I'm quite a fan of Lee Evans,
15:43
but not in this. He just sort of pops up to say
15:46
something irritating. Every now and then I find calm
15:48
and annoying She you know, suddenly all these kind of
15:51
serious pronouncements out of nowhere shut up.
15:55
And also very annoying. Murray Gold.
16:01
He's now actually. Again, I I sort of feel like
16:05
this needs a bit of a disclaimer.
16:09
Doctor Who has only had two composers for the last 20 years,
16:12
which I think is itself a bit of a problem, but it means that
16:15
whenever I criticize the music or praise the music, it's going
16:18
to be criticizing or praising the work of one of two people.
16:21
So if I come down harshly on Murray Gold, it's not a
16:24
pronouncement about his work, it's just a pronouncement about
16:26
his work on this particular story, which I think is about as
16:29
derivative as it gets. It starts off with this
16:32
perfectly well filmed and set up heist, but Murray Gold scores it
16:36
like it's a Johnny English film. And I was just thinking, it
16:40
sounds like, well, it kind of, yeah, but I mean Johnny English,
16:44
we we. The joke of Johnny English is
16:47
that it's a pastiche. The music in Johnny English is
16:50
deliberately heightened. It's a deliberate version and
16:54
rather camp version of what's already a kind of a dated genre.
17:01
Murray Gold seems to be kind of taking this as a as a serious
17:04
soundtrack for for for setting up well or or or he's not or.
17:08
He thinks it's all pastiche and joke, but it's it cheapens the
17:13
whole thing from the word go and I feel like wherever the story
17:17
go, whenever there's a comic beat, whenever Lee Evans pops up
17:20
to interject, annoyingly Murray Gold's there going comedy,
17:25
music, comedy, music, and then. Well, I mean James.
17:28
He did do like the ten seasons, to be fair.
17:32
I don't think he's ever done it as egregiously as he does it
17:34
here. And because this is such an
17:37
uneven and frenetic piece of television, Murray Gull is
17:40
going, oh, and now it's a comedy and Oh no, it's a romantic
17:42
drama. And Oh no, it's exciting.
17:44
It's really exciting. It's just like there are points
17:46
where I think maybe just write less or not at all.
17:52
I find the music in this highlights the problems in the
17:57
script which is there's so much going on so many ideas and none
18:00
of them developed properly. So it's a it's a great set up
18:06
but the the set up is setting up a new companion rather than the
18:09
story itself. So the heist is all peripheral
18:11
to what's about to come. We've got I mean what is this an
18:14
hour long we've got an hour to tell a story and and and we we
18:17
waste the 1st 10 minutes setting up a new character and what
18:25
happens in the story is the at the heart of it there's there's
18:29
a really good and interesting idea which is a a civilization
18:34
that's been reduced to dust by this terrifying kind of Stingray
18:39
like thing which you know has fed on this culture and and and
18:44
you know this dead planet is is you know a year previously was
18:50
an entire civilization. That's a frightening idea but we
18:54
don't have time to dwell on that we don't have time to explore
18:56
that in fact when we find out that it's it's all dead people
18:59
what's the response. It's Lady Christina saying
19:01
there's dead people in my hair. Do you think that maybe this
19:06
idea? This territory is exactly my
19:09
reaction, I. I think that we have a lot of
19:15
really potentially good characters in there.
19:17
But again the if the the focus on Lady Christina, it's like
19:21
we're setting up any companion. Can you any single one of the
19:24
people on that bus other than her would have made a more
19:26
interesting person to go off with in this story?
19:29
I mean Daniel Kalua is sitting on that bus.
19:32
What an absolutely wasteful use of a future Oscar winning actor
19:37
who, you know, you can always say you don't know that he's
19:39
going to win an Oscar when you cast him in that.
19:41
But I think it was clear by that stage of his career that you had
19:44
a really talented actor there. I mean, sitting on the bus, it's
19:47
a it's a nothing part is is it Alison, the one who he has to
19:53
talk out of her, her defeatism is a really interesting
19:57
character. I'd have.
19:57
I'd have happily kind of followed her off off the bus.
20:01
We've got another alien species, the Tritivores, and they got
20:07
sort of set up as perhaps they're a threat.
20:09
They're watching the bus and then they're introduced and then
20:12
because they're they're sort of, their purpose has been
20:15
fulfilled. They're clearly not going to be
20:16
a threat, but they're going to be in the way.
20:19
If they have to stick around, they're just gunned down like
20:22
the red shirts from Star Trek. It's, I think it's really
20:27
callous actually. The way those two characters are
20:29
set up and they they do their exposition and then it's like,
20:31
OK, we we can get rid of them now.
20:35
And it all happens at this relentless pace.
20:37
It's happening. It's happening so fast from the
20:39
way it hits the ground running and it's happening so fast that
20:41
it almost tricks you into thinking that you're having fun.
20:45
But actually, I think when you start to analyse it, none of it
20:47
makes sense. Even some of the dialogue
20:49
doesn't make sense. There are, there are sort of
20:51
witty lines that you kind of go, oh, that's witty, but if you
20:54
actually stop and think about it, well, what does that
20:56
actually mean? You know, when Lady Christina
20:58
says that's not a name, that's a psychological condition.
21:02
No, it's not. It's a medical title.
21:03
What are you talking about? It's not a psychological
21:05
condition. It's a sort of, it's a one liner
21:07
that that sounds like a joke but isn't a joke.
21:09
And the whole story to my mind is made-up of these little
21:13
vignettes, these little moments. It's sort of crowd pleasing
21:16
stuff happening here is some soldiers hear some shooting.
21:19
It leads to a big conclusion that doesn't really make any
21:23
sense. And and has a kind of emotional
21:27
bombast about it that hasn't been earned at all.
21:30
Suddenly at the end, Murray Gold is being # shop John Williams.
21:35
And and then off goes Lady Christina, having done her
21:39
kissing thing, flying away as if she's simply been set up to be
21:45
in a series of spin offs by Big Finish.
21:47
She's heading off to big finish towers, isn't she at the end of?
21:51
This too serious she got. Come on.
21:53
She did. Are they any good?
21:56
Actually. Has anyone ever?
21:57
Listened to them. I have actually listened to
22:01
them. Yeah, they were all right
22:03
actually. She was in a once in future and
22:05
I I say this with all the weight it deserves.
22:08
It was the worst once in future. Yeah, I grant you that.
22:12
I can't. I cannot defend that.
22:14
But she's in. She's in an audio with Sylvia
22:18
Noble in her first series and it's that's one of the best away
22:23
from Doctor Who single episodes I've heard of any big finishes,
22:27
so she was made to work quite well on audio.
22:30
I'm just curious as to why he listened at all.
22:32
There's nothing about that character that makes me want to
22:35
spend any more time with her. Completionism, yeah.
22:40
And then the other thing that's not earned at the end is the
22:42
kind of seriousness that's setting up the the the end of
22:45
the 10th Doctor. Again, it comes out of nowhere
22:47
and it's just Carmen going. But now I'm going to be.
22:50
Pathetic. For goodness sake, that's that's
22:53
lazy writing. It's not set up, it's it it.
22:55
It's purely put there as a an artificial way of creating
22:59
tension. So I feel like this is the
23:00
Doctor Who equivalent of a Big Mac.
23:03
It sort of makes you think you want it.
23:04
It even tricks you into thinking you're enjoying it while you're
23:06
eating it, but by the end you're already feeling a bit sick.
23:10
I'm getting the impression you didn't like this too much.
23:13
I was sort of enjoying it throughout and but and then it
23:17
left me feeling hungry. At the end as I say, I found
23:22
David Tennant actually very watchable in this, but by the
23:24
end I was thinking am I just finding him less annoying than
23:28
the the other annoying things that surrounding him?
23:32
Wow, so this is the man that mounted a very hard defence of
23:35
Monster of Peloton. It has plums of the dead Tibet.
23:39
Should we go to the comments? Afterglow says a perfect example
23:43
of the dangers of overwriting. Many masterpieces are basically
23:47
first or second drafts with this story.
23:49
They kept rethinking and rethinking it as you can see in
23:52
the writers tale, till everything interesting was gone.
23:55
They had too much time. James H says light on plot, but
23:59
damn fun to watch. Not every story has to be deep
24:02
and meaningful, and this is a great example of an upbeat run
24:05
around that knows that's all it is.
24:08
Joyously, frivolous, and I'd love more of 10 and The Lady.
24:12
I'm not going to ask James whether he'd loved more of 10
24:15
and The Lady, because I think I know the answer to that one,
24:17
David Gillespie Pratt said, self consciously trying to be the fun
24:21
special of 2009, and then supplied the sort of organised
24:24
fun you get at a dreadful office Christmas party.
24:28
Lady Christina and her awful accent thankfully departed the
24:31
end, never to be seen again apart from Big Finish.
24:35
Snip says while it's a boring setting with a boring story, the
24:39
characters save this. They all feel unique and work
24:41
well together. I wish Tan and Christina did go
24:44
off in the tallest together. Fraser Gregory says perfectly
24:48
decent Doctor Who saves a bus full of people.
24:50
Units are involved for some decent aliens and Lee Evans.
24:54
Plenty to enjoy. Nothing tight.
24:56
Not even Lady Christina, even if there's nothing really to love.
25:00
Big Orange Michael As the first episode filmed in HD, it looks
25:03
spectacular. The story is good, but not
25:06
necessarily great. Extra points for a foreshadowing
25:09
at the end to hook me. Daniel Ronsley says light, fun,
25:13
Easter trifle with spectacular sets and location work Tenants
25:17
is still so good in the role even now it's easy to take him
25:20
for granted. Lady Christina just about walks
25:23
that tricky tightrope between appealing and annoying.
25:26
Love Malcolm? Sigh, Hart.
25:28
This is the man who kind of loves all of Doctor Who by the
25:31
numbers RTD opener. That's somehow less than it's
25:33
part, rather soulless. Paul Quinn says Crikey.
25:38
Paul Quinn says a good and demanding adventure, Paul, but
25:42
it's overwhelmed by the pretentious foreshadowing
25:45
between this the needless ball tickling of the next Doctor, the
25:49
horror of Waters, and the crappiness of The End of Time.
25:52
They should have regenerated Tenant in Journey's End.
25:55
Jason Thompson, A good, fun romp with the Doctor, getting it
25:58
right with a busload of frightened people.
26:00
This time round. Malcolm is wonderful.
26:02
Yes, he's Lee Evans. Comedy Welshman.
26:05
Well, what's wrong with having a really fun character?
26:07
And who among us wouldn't have reacted just as he did when the
26:10
Doctor was finally there in front of him?
26:13
Darren Lit, Randall says. A great looking episode.
26:15
It's rather slight on plot, but that doesn't especially bug me.
26:18
I love Murray score. I can't abide the chops and
26:21
gravy, lovely Doctor and Lady EastEnders.
26:25
I just don't believe in her as a character at all.
26:29
Michael Storm suffers badly from being a special.
26:31
Had it been an episode in a full series, I don't think it's
26:34
sports would have been so focused upon.
26:35
It's not bad, it's just kind of there, though.
26:38
Lee Evans is more painful than sliding down a razor blade and
26:41
landing in TCP. Chris Botka says great.
26:45
I've never understood the hate. It feels like a classic series
26:48
story where they get stranded in a quarry.
26:50
Daniel Knight The desert sequences look suitably epic and
26:53
the trite of oars are OK, but it all feels hollow, treading
26:56
water, ironically given the next episode.
26:59
Martin Parsons says, a breath of fresh air.
27:02
Light and frothy. Looks great.
27:04
I loved having a companion who didn't moan.
27:06
Main problem is that Captain Boring could have been Bambara
27:10
and it would have been made so much better that.
27:12
Would have been amazing. Stephen Rose It's just OK.
27:16
The idea of being just so kicking up to always win a
27:19
tenner on the lottery is lovely. Would love to see Malcolm back.
27:22
And finally, the ray of sunshine.
27:25
This is, Jompanzaria says. Nice location filming, but the
27:29
plot's thinner than the char. Grilled Bus Driver, Lady
27:33
Christina of Posh is as compatible with the doctor as
27:36
Melanie Bush or NYDA. OK, so those are the comments.
27:41
Let's go over to Michael to see what he thinks.
27:44
Has James converted you to his utter hatred of Plants of the
27:48
Dead? Oh, dramatic pause.
27:54
I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying.
27:57
I know what you're saying. It is repetitious.
28:01
So this is, I think ironically something we'll probably come
28:03
back to in discussing Russell T Davis's writing and Doctor Who.
28:05
He loves his own ideas and he loves his writing.
28:08
And sometimes that's really good and you get really good things.
28:11
But other times I've written down the word smug here.
28:14
So Tom's like sometimes you get back and you can you just know
28:16
he's there chortling to himself. You don't know.
28:18
You imagine, but we know. Chortling to himself and go, oh,
28:20
that's wonderful, Oh, that's lovely.
28:21
That's what you come to RTD for, isn't it?
28:23
All of all of the all of the older ladies making portentous
28:26
statements and people talking about chops and gravy, how it
28:30
always win the lottery. Because let's not remember he's
28:32
let's forget he's not he's not working class.
28:34
He's not working class. He's a Lord, you know.
28:38
Actual Lord, I think he might be king, I'm not sure, but any but
28:43
anyway. I think he's a deity at this
28:46
point, isn't he? And I think you can get away
28:48
with that sometimes when it's done really well, because I'm
28:50
not. I think he's a wonderful writer.
28:52
I think a lot of the time that all lands really well.
28:54
But sometimes it is just people said it's overwritten.
28:57
I almost thought it has. I know it wasn't.
29:00
I've read The Writer's Tale, but it almost reads like, you know,
29:03
he was accused of doing with cucumber of it, reading like a
29:06
first draft of it just being like, oh, I'll put in all my
29:08
bits. I'll put in all my bits.
29:10
And that's the bit that goes down and that's the bit that
29:11
goes out. And it really works.
29:13
But it doesn't hear. It annoys me.
29:14
He will knock four times. Like, no, stop it.
29:18
Stop being actually be portentous.
29:20
Actually do the thing you want to do.
29:22
Don't just play. It's being portentous.
29:24
And don't just say these things. I I know.
29:27
Doesn't he look tired by this point in the first run?
29:30
Doesn't he? Yes.
29:32
And it really annoyed me and it really annoys me.
29:35
And. You said that there were so many
29:38
other characters who would all be more interesting to be the
29:40
companion, the companion, the Lady Christina.
29:42
I think the problem is there's too many characters.
29:45
There are so there are so many characters in this story who
29:48
literally sit around doing nothing.
29:52
If you're going to have a bus full of people kidnapped, you
29:56
need to have enough story for everyone on the bus to do or
29:59
just don't have so many people on the bus.
30:01
This is This is why Christopher H Bibby gets angry at him about
30:03
about the Sonic screwdriver. If you need something, just get
30:05
him out from behind the door. Don't put him behind the door.
30:08
You're the writer. You can do this.
30:09
The trouble is though, him from Holby City and her from Bad
30:12
Girls and him from movies to come, they're all available so
30:16
and they said we want to do it. So that's why they're all on
30:18
there. Side note, with Daniel Kaluya
30:20
being in this and Andrew Garfield being in Daleks in
30:23
Manhattan and Carey Mulligan being in Blink, if we get a new
30:27
breakthrough British star in Hollywood these days, I'm always
30:29
slightly surprised. If they weren't in Doctor Who in
30:31
the noughties like, oh surely. Surely Tom Hiddleston was one of
30:35
the people working in torture in Army of Ghosts, right?
30:37
No, apparently not. Anyway, back to the round.
30:42
There's far too much going on. It just feels like he's got all
30:45
of the Russell T Davis bits and just sort of put them, put them
30:48
into final draft or what have you and then just smooth out the
30:52
edges. I know there was another writer
30:54
on this episode, Goris. Goris Roberts I was going to
30:57
mention that at some point, but I didn't dare interrupt.
30:59
Your flow, I will leave that. I will leave that to others.
31:04
So. On on that, can I interject?
31:07
Do you? I mean, one of the things I felt
31:09
it was exactly that. But I also feel like the edges
31:11
are not that smooth. It feels like there are three
31:15
different types of story going on simultaneously.
31:18
So not only is it too many ideas, but they're all from
31:21
different scripts. There's an idea in here which I
31:24
like, which is that this can be just one.
31:27
No. Well, no.
31:27
Oh, come on, there's a bit here that I like, which is that you
31:31
could almost have done this as like a Doctor Who version of Die
31:34
Hard because Doctor Who's never done Die Hard and that probably
31:36
makes it the one long running from sci-fi action franchise in
31:39
the world that hasn't. But there's a version where the
31:41
Doctor's stuck in the thing with the baddies and you've got, you
31:43
know, you've got the man in the chair and even the ending where
31:45
they come out and this, and he's like Malcolm, that's not how
31:48
David Tennant spoke, but you know.
31:52
Good try. Thank you.
31:53
You know that is that that's die hard, right?
31:55
Even even with, you know, not not a German terrorist with a
31:58
machine gun but a Stingray coming out and they get their
32:01
moment. It's it's die hard.
32:02
I'd like the idea they could have done Die Hard, but it's one
32:04
of many ideas that as James said, it's it's there but not
32:08
really worked out but. I knew it.
32:13
I. Knew I knew this was going to
32:16
turn around. You're doing a Rob special.
32:20
I. Had a lot of fun with it.
32:23
You know it's like a Big Mac is tasty sometimes.
32:25
So to go down your list of characters I I agree with you
32:27
calmly is annoying. Malcolm is fun.
32:31
I'm sorry I realised it and it takes a lot for me to sit here
32:34
and say I enjoyed the comedy. Welshman in the In the episode,
32:39
speaking, speaking as as a proud Welshman.
32:42
I love you, Sha. I love you.
32:46
I mean, yeah, exactly. And there's a bit of him that
32:49
he's sort of like, I thought, oh, he's Doctor Who's Galaxy
32:52
Quest. You know the fans saved the day
32:54
in the end. And I I I can't deny I, I, I I
32:57
like. To least Michael.
32:59
At least he ate wearing that fucking scarf and all of that.
33:01
That Ausgrid has to wear the celery.
33:03
All of that stuff. There is a long tradition in
33:06
Doctor Who of introducing a character who is a lot of fun in
33:09
the first episode, and then just keeping going with them until
33:12
they become a pastiche of what they're originally meant to do.
33:14
You've met Kate Leftwich, Stewart, have you?
33:17
No, you said fun in a first episode.
33:19
That was Kate out. Thinking about Captain Jack.
33:24
I never think about Captain Jack.
33:27
This is going to be a. Bitchy one, I can tell.
33:30
So I love so so I I, I I like all that I enjoy.
33:34
I enjoyed it. I But you're right that the more
33:39
I think about it the more it falls apart.
33:43
Lady Christina I I have to admit I I I quite I quite enjoyed.
33:47
But then my wife is much posher than me, so maybe that's just a
33:50
self disclosure at this statement at this point.
33:54
I yeah, three of us are not gonna have that issue.
34:03
I, I, I everything. Almost everything that James has
34:08
said is absolutely correct and far better argued than anything
34:10
I could say. But when I was last on this
34:14
episode, we had Toby and Toby Haddock made a great point about
34:17
the point of Doctor Who specials, which is their way.
34:19
You're meant that everyone else sits down and watches, and so I
34:22
think being crowd pleasing and being fun for the length of time
34:25
that it's on in front of you, it is arguably much more
34:29
appropriate than when Doctor Who's tried to be darker in its
34:32
specials or more complicated in its specials.
34:35
At the end of the day, it's an episode that wants to be a lot
34:37
of fun and I really enjoyed it while I was watching it for
34:40
every reason, but I can say it's rubbish afterwards.
34:45
Though I was sitting there, someone who'd never seen Doctor
34:46
Who before, and her take away was, it's a bit relentless,
34:49
isn't it? And she basically, she had a a
34:53
worse time than I did. I was there thinking, well, it's
34:55
a lot that's annoying me, but I'm having fun.
34:56
And then I turned to her and she's like, is it?
34:59
Is it always like that? It's I.
35:02
Suggest next time you you put on Underworld for her I.
35:05
Will do, I will do, yeah. Noted.
35:09
Right. Shall I go next?
35:10
Yeah, go on. So this is an episode all about
35:14
numbers, so it's the first to be filmed in HD, it's the first in
35:18
Dubai, it's the 200th story and he will knock four times.
35:23
So we've got lots of numbers. So my reasons are all numbers
35:27
based and my first one is #2. Now, it would be very
35:32
uncharitable of me to suggest that the plot is a load of old
35:35
Number Twos. However, there is an argument
35:39
for that. There is a genuine reference to
35:41
Number Twos in that in this story, in that the tritivores
35:44
want to trade with the people of San Helios in return for it's
35:48
shit. And why not?
35:49
Because they are flies. But it's that level of
35:53
unsubtlety that is so typical of this story and is made is made
35:58
worse by the fact that that joke doesn't follow through.
36:02
And I apologise for the pun about not following through.
36:06
So we've got traitivores who are flies, but they haven't got any
36:10
wings and they use a spaceship to travel and when they're
36:13
attacked they don't fly away so they're not really flies.
36:17
They are just the dumbest Doctor Who monster of a man in a boiler
36:21
suit with a family head put on him.
36:23
There's also a load of zombies on the planet that have torn all
36:26
their wings off. But we didn't.
36:28
Oh, OK, thank you for that explanation.
36:30
But then they're visitors to the planet and everyone else was
36:33
dead, so that doesn't hold any water.
36:35
So they are just a man with a fly head dumped on them.
36:38
And yes, I have used the word dump in this analogy A.
36:41
Really terrible fly head as well, I.
36:43
Mean it's not the most classic. Doctor Who mask you've seen.
36:46
It's so 1950s isn't? It.
36:49
But their whole subplot is there to give the Doctor these magic
36:52
clamps so that the bus can fly away.
36:55
But hang on a minute. Clamps fix things together.
36:58
So surely the clamp would fix the bus to the sand, but this
37:03
clamp makes it fly. But it's fine.
37:06
You know, logic doesn't count because the doctor's got a magic
37:09
Gold Cup and he's going to Weld the cup to the bus.
37:13
Hang on, he's going to Weld it by using a hammer.
37:16
That's welding. It's just shit, isn't it?
37:19
The logic just does not apply. And if you need any more
37:23
evidence of terrible logic, we've got Lady Christina who's a
37:28
cat burglar and she's got a backpack.
37:31
With all her equipments in, she's breaking into this museum,
37:34
so obviously she needs to travel quite light.
37:37
But hang on, she's got a fold away spade in her backpack when
37:41
she's breaking into the British Museum.
37:43
Makes no sense. It is just.
37:45
Excuse me, Sophie. Audrey had our bloody ladder in
37:48
her rucksack when she was going around on the benches.
37:51
We're not. Don't start because Fenrick
37:52
again. You've received enough hate for
37:54
that. Always comes back to Sophie.
37:56
Old with you I. Mean enough?
37:57
Yeah, it's Sophie, old child. Stephen Moffitt.
38:00
She hurt me as a child, I'm saying.
38:03
So #2 out, my second number is #7, although I do realise I may
38:10
have lost count in this story we get at.
38:12
Least. 3 references to the Doctor and Christina.
38:16
Oh, we're a perfect team. You got at least two references.
38:19
Oh, we were made for each other. And another two references.
38:23
Oh, we're so good together. I just want to shout the screen.
38:26
We fucking get it. You're telling us you're great
38:28
together. Show us that.
38:29
Don't keep telling us. But they can't show us because
38:33
Lady Christina has no character, no charisma, and her and David
38:38
Turner together. There's just no chemistry.
38:41
Oh, she's oh mad, she's sexy as hell.
38:45
Together there's no pipes. With you go watch river Salt.
38:49
There is no chemistry. She's a thief.
38:51
But it's OK. She only does it for the
38:53
adventure, not the money. So to quote the toy maker,
38:56
that's all right then. Sexy as hell?
39:01
Do you really think that's sexy as hell?
39:04
Yeah, you need to get out a bit. What that pair together on the
39:06
oh, are they sizzled on the screen?
39:08
I was. I was feeling.
39:10
A bit hot. Thank you.
39:11
Thank you, Michael. OK, it's two of the hottest
39:16
people this series has had in a scorching hot desert together.
39:21
Fabulous. Anyway, sorry.
39:22
Go. Joe, you need to get out a
39:24
little bit more. Love.
39:27
So that's my number one is number 7 and my last one is #1,
39:30
and this doesn't relate to where I would place this story #1
39:33
refers to Mission Impossible one, where there's that very
39:36
famous scene of Tom Cruise being lowered down into the CIA vault
39:41
on the wires. And obviously they try to kind
39:43
of copy that in the opening scene.
39:46
So start with in this opening scene.
39:49
There's a golden cup. It's been guarded by 4 armed
39:52
soldiers. When were there ever 4 armed
39:55
soldiers in the museum guarding a cup?
39:58
But it's alright because they put the cup directly under a
40:00
skylight where Lady Christina comes down from and no one
40:04
hears. No one notices.
40:05
No one senses her. But.
40:07
And she replaces the cup with a squeaky Chinese toy that we hear
40:10
squeaking as it waves at them. But nobody hears that either.
40:14
It's just it is just nonsensical.
40:16
She escapes from the building. There are no more guards.
40:20
It just makes no sense. The whole point of that is to
40:23
show her skills and her abilities.
40:24
So later on, surprise, surprise, when the Doctor leaves her next
40:28
to a gaping chasm, what's going to happen?
40:31
Do you think maybe she's going to go down that chasm on her
40:35
secret ladder? Of course she is.
40:37
It's just so trite. It's so obvious.
40:40
It is #1. It's number one for the most
40:42
insulting Doctor Who story of all time.
40:45
It's absolute rubbish. It's in the bin.
40:48
You know, I mentioned the Galaxy Quest and the bit of all the
40:52
great Russell T Davis conceits in The Rising of Doctor Who.
40:56
The magnetic clamps are at the bottom of this pit is proper
40:59
Galaxy Quest. Why are these even here?
41:02
Because it was in the episode. But magic clamps make the bus
41:05
fly, so it's all right. Also, there's a door at the
41:08
point. It goes down flying bus with a
41:11
load of Stingrays around it. It's an Easter special.
41:14
It's a bit of fun, man. You.
41:16
People need to put these out a bit more.
41:19
This is some sort of magic clamp.
41:20
We're just meant to buy that there is a problem here.
41:25
There is a problem here that comes up just the one.
41:27
Well, if you you've made in amongst all that, you've made
41:30
one good point rod, which is that.
41:32
I don't. Think he made one good point
41:33
there, if I'm honest. And well, because James touched
41:36
on this much more eloquently, which is the yeah, which is the
41:40
Doctor Who so often ends up doing pastiche when it wants to
41:45
do the actual thing seriously and honestly, itself.
41:48
And so it just ends up looking cheap.
41:50
So that whole sequence at the front, we start with the armed
41:52
guards and the thing, it's not doing, it's not doing the jokey
41:55
version of that. It's just doing it on a low
41:58
budget. It thinks it's Mission
42:00
Impossible. Yeah, but it's but it's Johnny
42:02
English. But it's stylishly shocked.
42:04
Precisely that sequence. In fact, the whole thing is very
42:08
mad. Oh man, you guys really need to
42:09
check. It's an Easter special.
42:11
It's like a holiday movie. I.
42:13
Came into this conversation liking this episode, but I've
42:15
learnt to hate. Well, did you?
42:16
Did you? Kick It Out, I wasn't quite.
42:17
Sure, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I am?
42:21
Boo. Let's Boo.
42:22
I mean, I'll be oh, where it's going now, it don't matter.
42:25
I'm just. Going to put it on, Michael,
42:26
Let's get in. I don't know.
42:28
I've changed. I used to be James and I really
42:31
didn't like this at all. I have that, read my review.
42:33
I was very mean. Yeah, blast with it.
42:35
This time I just thought it was energetic, sexy, gorgeous
42:39
looking, great chemistry, cheesy monsters, fun, unique
42:43
characters, good laugh. This is my era of Doctor Who, so
42:47
I don't find this smug. I just find this very confident.
42:50
I'll tell you what it is. I'll tell you what, I've
42:52
switched. I watched it for the first time
42:54
in 10 years and I had fun. If I watched it again, I would
42:58
think that everything that James and Rod have said is correct.
43:01
I don't think it's got any. There's no sustain to it.
43:03
To use a, you know, musical expression.
43:05
Nothing in it lasts. Nothing actually holds up if
43:07
you're. Wondering, you know, I do wonder
43:09
if the word special again is working against it.
43:12
And there's a couple of others in the the episodes we're doing
43:14
today where the word special, it comes with all these
43:17
expectations. We talked about this before,
43:19
didn't we, Rod? We did.
43:20
And this is sort of like a mid season Doctor Who story.
43:23
You know, desert planet, monsters, unit, everything sort
43:26
of thrown into the mix. I think it's fun.
43:30
It's fun, and people were lapping it up at the time as
43:32
well. I'm just amazed that you think
43:34
it's sexy. I I think you're right.
43:36
You've got, You've got two, you've got 2.
43:38
Very attractive browser history, James.
43:41
That'll explain everything. I think you've got two very
43:44
attractive people on screen. I think it's.
43:45
I think it does look gorgeous. It's beautifully shot, but it's
43:49
so sterile. I think it's like someone's idea
43:51
of what sexy is. Who hasn't had a sexy experience
43:55
for at least 20 years? Probably.
43:56
Because I I didn't used to believe in the chemistry between
43:58
the two of them, but on this watch, on this time I watched
44:01
it. I thought they just sizzled on.
44:03
The oh, I didn't. I disagree.
44:04
I think that piss comes out of nowhere.
44:07
Yeah, I don't like the non consensual bit, but then there's
44:09
plenty of that coming up in seasons to come, isn't there?
44:12
So yeah, but it's going. It's going.
44:15
It's fun, but it's going. Planet of the Dead falls.
44:20
Also, that's not what dead people would look.
44:21
Like, I do not think the most inoffensive episode will get the
44:25
most raging debate, you know? Imagine what's going to come up
44:29
later on, oh. I sort of think.
44:31
Michael, over to you for your first choice.
44:34
Well, I'm going to sing the praises of something and I am
44:39
going to sing for salvation, granted for the chance to love
44:44
and have an open heart. And I am going to go for a
44:47
Christian episode that I love and I don't have to apologise
44:52
for it. I'm going for the power of the
44:54
Doctor. Here are my reasons number.
44:59
So, full disclaimer, I'm not like many people.
45:02
Say very quickly, I was hoping you were going to say Legends of
45:04
the Sea Devils. I was.
45:07
About to hit switch off if that was the case.
45:12
We'll come on to that. No, I'm I, you know, like many
45:15
people, not the biggest fan of Christian Miller, don't want to
45:18
join in a pile on hate. I think there are things to like
45:20
in it, but I just don't. I think it's very, very flawed.
45:24
But what's wonderful about the power of the Doctor is it's
45:27
Chris Chibnall leaning into all of his real strengths on Doctor
45:30
Who and putting them forefront for the finale #1.
45:34
Most importantly, casting. I think his casting, especially
45:38
for his regulars, is any other person involved.
45:41
But I think the casting is more consistently strong throughout
45:47
his era. I don't there's not a single
45:49
regular in. That's it in his run that I
45:51
don't think is brilliant and that includes people who I
45:54
sometimes find insufferable and other things.
45:56
I'm not naming names, but here it's front and centre.
45:59
I mean, I think builds an entire special around those, around
46:03
those people. You know, if you are putting
46:05
Sasha Doran as the master at the centre of your story, you're not
46:08
doing anything wrong. I think Mandeep Gill in the last
46:12
couple of episodes, because she's actually given something
46:15
to do, really reveals herself to be one of the most valuable
46:18
people of that entire era of Doctor Who.
46:20
She no wonder she's going on to do such wonderful things.
46:23
She's fantastic and I really really care about yes after two
46:26
or three seasons I couldn't have told you a single thing about
46:29
yes she was a she was a policeman at the start.
46:33
I think she's still a policeman. I'm not sure police person and
46:38
Janet Fielding who has not who haven't acted for what 30 years
46:43
at the time she's doing this. I love Doctor Who, love all
46:46
Doctor Who companies. I was slightly concerned when I
46:49
heard her bring them back so I thought is this a little bit big
46:52
finish. But she's really good, her and
46:55
just I would like to go in the TARDIS is in my top, top tier
46:59
line deliveries in all of Doctor Who, so that is that is
47:03
fantastic. It.
47:05
Is it? It looks big.
47:06
It is as big as what I'm I guess we now have to refer to as mid
47:09
period Doctor. Whoever looked it has proper set
47:13
pieces and it has so many of them.
47:15
The bit on the bullet train in space.
47:18
Oh amazing, incredible, Genuine. Genuinely.
47:20
At no point, at no point to go out to the last discussion does
47:23
this feel like Doctor Who trying to do something it can't do in
47:26
terms of actually delivering. Lord knows how they managed it.
47:29
Can't imagine the budget was that much bigger.
47:31
It looks absolutely fantastic. It's genuinely thrilling.
47:34
It's back and forth on top of the things.
47:35
It's shooting at things. It's just also this is, this is
47:38
proper movie level thinking. The bit where Sophie Aldred.
47:41
Sorry, Joe. Yes jumps off the top of the
47:44
building and we follow her. Plummeting, plummeting,
47:46
plummeting. And then the TARDIS materializes
47:48
underneath her and she skids through as the gravity changes.
47:51
That's the sort of stuff that only used to happen in 8th
47:53
Doctor adventure novels. We can actually see that
47:55
happening on screen. On screen, no, this is.
48:00
I gotta have four points but this is this is tied to a couple
48:02
of the other ones so it's a it's a sub point the the Bechdel test
48:07
is is passed with flying colours here you know this.
48:11
We've got things where it is. It's all just just women just
48:14
female characters delivering this whole thing for a show that
48:19
let's face it at at points as any long running show starting
48:21
96 have hasn't always been brilliant on the whole gender
48:24
thing. What a wonderful affirmation
48:25
that we've reached this point when naturally that is how he's
48:27
leading the story. These are who our characters are
48:29
and it doesn't feel forced or pointed.
48:31
It feels entirely built up and merited and earnt and here we
48:34
are. It's it's brilliant.
48:36
I think it's seriously commended there.
48:37
Can I ask you a question that bit where they're in UNIT and
48:40
it's the Doctor, Kate Stewart, Yas, Ace and Tegan.
48:44
Has there ever been a scene where it's just all women?
48:48
Like like en masse like that in Doctor Who before?
48:50
I can't think of 1. Happiness Patrol.
48:53
It's not much. Maybe.
48:57
The Kangs. Yeah, feathers.
48:59
All right. But still, I mean, it's
49:02
incredible, isn't it? It's terrific.
49:04
Well, exactly that they are that, that, that.
49:05
It's also the, I suppose the point you're making there is
49:08
that it's it's the leads and and the lead supporting characters,
49:11
isn't it? You know, it's not just the
49:12
supporting cast here. But finally, I mean the thing
49:16
overall is it still has a lot of the flaws of the Chris Chipnut
49:20
era in it, but it is so vexiously enthusiastic.
49:26
It is Russell T Davis described it as, you know, a child's idea
49:29
of Doctor Who and it is like Doctor Who that is just has had
49:33
way too much sugar. It's way too excited for its own
49:35
good. But it's really excited about
49:37
being Doctor Who going Oh my God, and then and then and then
49:40
Ace is that antique is that It is very much like the the.
49:43
It is very much like the fan fiction I wrote as a 13 year
49:46
old. Now I've got an.
49:47
Excise book that I wear at Cybermen versus Unit.
49:50
Yes, it is exactly that. This is exercise book.
49:53
This is exercise but Doctor Who, but capturing what The
49:57
enthusiasm and the love that we all felt.
49:59
I had a childish enthusiasm for Doctor Who watching this that I
50:03
hadn't felt in years. I'd loved it in other ways.
50:05
I got excited about it different ways, but I don't think I'd
50:08
remembered what it was like to be 12, dreaming up Doctor Who
50:11
stories, watching such and final points.
50:12
It is such a big celebration, and so, so relentlessly
50:16
enthusiastic, so joyous, that you forget that it's a special
50:19
that doesn't actually have a subject to be special about
50:24
ostensibly. Ostensibly, it's the 100th
50:26
anniversary of the BBC. But I mean, he could have set it
50:29
in 1922. So.
50:35
Glowing recommendation from Michael.
50:37
Should we go to the comments? Sy Hart says.
50:40
Brilliant, epic episode that looks better than every other.
50:43
A nostalgic love letter to the whole show, but still moving
50:46
forwards. Jodie Leeds in a beautifully
50:48
moving way. Martin Parson, the Spathis fan
50:51
wank and I always feel a bit dirty afterwards.
50:54
You gave me that on purpose. I did, but it's.
50:56
Tons of fun. Yas is more useful than she's
50:59
ever been before. The Vinder bit is hilarious.
51:01
Ace and Graham. The conversion planet quick fix
51:04
is clever if you squint Ian Chesterton.
51:07
Darren Lit, Randall says. A bit of a mess really, and some
51:10
suspect acting, removing Jodie from her final story.
51:14
Largely rubbish, but it entertained me.
51:17
Jo Llewellyn Easily the best of the chip.
51:18
No era. I even like the parts that
51:20
didn't include the classic era characters.
51:22
One of the best new Hoo master stories.
51:25
Love the dancing Rasputin. Not sorry to see this era go,
51:29
but it went out on a high with companion group therapy.
51:32
Stephen Rhodes says the best example of why having a
51:35
showrunner who can keep secrets is a good thing went in knowing
51:38
absolutely nothing and loved it. Jodi's final sunlit words could
51:43
not be more in keeping with her fabulous doctor.
51:45
What an end to an era. James H oh, just glorious.
51:49
Everything I wanted from a celebration and more.
51:52
And seeing it mostly unspoiled, the utter delight perfectly
51:55
forcing out past Doctors. The musical number, the most
51:58
beautiful regeneration ever. I adore it beyond belief.
52:02
Fraser Gregory says stunningly directed and scored.
52:05
It's a love letter to the past, but it still looks forward with
52:07
hope and excitement. Jodie's regeneration is one of
52:10
the best. The Guardians of the Edge is a
52:12
great way of bringing old Doctors back, and Best is the
52:15
Master dancing to Bony. Sublime.
52:18
Just sublime. Andy Parkinson, Fun and fab
52:21
finale for Jody Okay. Scratch at the plot and you
52:24
won't find much, but it doesn't matter as the story barrels
52:27
along. Great to have Ace and Tegan
52:29
back. Jason Thompson says an enjoyable
52:31
ride that makes no bloody sense whatsoever.
52:34
The whole force regeneration amounts to what exactly?
52:37
The Master cosplaying the Doctor?
52:39
And can we please actually have the Doctor regenerate when
52:42
they're mortally wounded? She gets zapped, has a nice
52:45
sleep, wakes up, spots a glowing hand, goes Oh dear, let's have
52:49
an ice cream on the TARDIS roof. That said, the regeneration
52:52
itself is gorgeous. You don't get that bit in Deadly
52:55
Assassin that says once you hit your 9th incarnation, that when
52:59
you are mortally wounded you have enough time for free
53:01
speeches and then you regenerate Every single time I.
53:05
Think that's rat commenter. What I've never spotted before
53:07
what you do this time is that when she's having the ice cream,
53:10
they leave the glow on her hands just to show she's still
53:12
regenerating, which gives it the vague air of someone having a
53:15
cornetta while they're bleeding out.
53:18
David Gillespie Pratt. Dan.
53:20
Remember Dan? What an odd, sudden ending for a
53:23
companion. Almost as dodo melt levels of
53:26
Sudden Departure. The Rasputin scene makes the
53:29
organised fun of Planet of the Dead look positively hilarious.
53:32
I don't hate this. I'm just not sure I like it
53:35
either. Big Orange, Michael says.
53:37
I loved Power going full fanservice with Ace and Tegan.
53:40
However, both scripts could have used another pass for Edison.
53:44
Jack Queer. The real power of the Doctor is
53:46
the friends we make along the way.
53:48
Hi guys. And everyone's invited.
53:50
But we can't slow down for a second or else people might
53:53
figure out there's not much plot but not one Duff performance.
53:56
There's sort of mixed opinions on the acting here.
53:58
Well, it's got Sophie all taken and aces.
54:01
Reunions with Davidson and McCoy are wonderful.
54:03
Every single strength and floor of Doctor Who is here.
54:06
That's a good. That's a good point.
54:09
Dave Rennie says, magnificent from the start and a moving
54:11
train to the final therapy scene.
54:13
This is full of love and an awesome finale for the 13th
54:16
Doctor. The Master and Ashad had had to
54:18
come back and Tegan returning was so good I wonder why Mr. Ace
54:23
even Dan leaving after 20 minutes doesn't affect it.
54:26
Don't worry, LSJ says. Felt like it was written for me.
54:29
Tegan, Ace, my favorite new series.
54:31
Master Cybermen and that companion support group.
54:34
This might be my favorite story of the new series.
54:37
Trium Visual says the actual killing of the Doctor was lame,
54:40
but the cast nailed it and it's the only regeneration special
54:43
since 2005 to make me cry. Dylan Reece The Kitchen sink
54:47
approach. And it works.
54:49
Beautiful, powerful, funny, heartbreaking.
54:51
And all those nostalgia moments tickle my tits.
54:54
Gareth Bowley says too much crammed into this one.
54:57
The nostalgia factor is just right, but the regeneration
55:00
alone and fab music means this will always rate highly for me.
55:04
Good ultimate one here Paul Smy great to see Tegan and Ace back
55:07
and getting some very moving scenes with their doctors.
55:09
Story drags a bit on the whole. Good ending for Jodi.
55:12
And finally, Tom Newson says brilliant and like an epic
55:15
Marvel movie, a fine send off James.
55:19
I think Michael quite likes this episode.
55:22
Has he won you over to his way of thinking?
55:25
Well, as he has rightly pointed out, along with many of those
55:30
comments, there's a there's a lot going on in this one.
55:32
But I I I went back to it in preparation for this podcast,
55:37
and even though I had seen it on broadcast, it took me by
55:41
surprise. It begins with an action
55:43
sequence. So preposterous, both in
55:46
execution of the action and in the way that the characters
55:49
themselves are responding to it, that it could come out of an
55:51
episode of an Inspector Gadget. Only it turns out that's just
55:55
setting the tone for what's to follow.
55:56
So what have we got? We've got a child in a box.
55:58
Is it the time? Timeless child?
55:59
We don't know. We've got two former companions
56:00
popping up, neither of them known for their post Doctor Who
56:03
acting career. But never.
56:05
Maybe that doesn't matter. I don't know.
56:06
Then we Then we have a companion leaving scene.
56:08
A bit odd in the 1st 10 minutes of an episode, but it's
56:10
romantic. Nonsense in fact.
56:11
But but here we are. Then we've got a Dalek, then
56:13
we've got some Petersburg. Oh, it's Peter from the
56:15
Chronicles of Narnia as star Nicholas.
56:17
Well, that's a tick for me because he was a bit of a
56:19
childhood crush, a new planet, a second TARDIS.
56:21
Oh, it's not the Timel's child. It's sentient unit turn up.
56:24
Then we have the whole of school union, but done in about 50
56:27
seconds. And then it's the master and
56:29
it's Ashad. Why?
56:30
Well, we don't really know, but it doesn't matter.
56:32
And then it's what's his face from Flux And we're in a volcano
56:35
in Bolivia. And then we have a sort of
56:37
tribute to Rusty Davis's musical sequences.
56:40
Aces Baseball Bat comes out, We've got cosplay, we've got
56:42
David Bradley, Colin Baker, Peter Davison, Paul McGann.
56:45
Sylvester McCoy. I'm going to come.
56:50
We know the Dallas traitor, 'cause it goes a little bit
56:52
Nicholas Briggs, Graham, We've got The Fugitive Dr. And on it
56:56
goes. It's like fan fiction written by
56:58
a five year old on speed. It's.
57:00
Good, isn't it? A.
57:01
Five year old. Is it the least disciplined
57:06
Doctor Who's group ever? I think so.
57:08
Can't even deliver it's jokes properly.
57:11
You've got a brilliant joke about the Masters Dalek plan,
57:13
which he then explains even the regeneration doesn't make sense.
57:18
We we think it's all going to be explained How his clothes
57:21
regenerate. How will her clothes regenerate?
57:22
Never explain, never explain, she says.
57:24
I want to see what will happen next.
57:25
You will. You're going to be the Doctor.
57:27
I don't understand what you're saying.
57:29
That line. Unless you've just become Jodie
57:31
Whittaker for that single line. And just when we think we've
57:34
seen the ultimate fan wank, we've got a room for the former
57:38
companions. We've got Katie Manning, we've
57:40
got Bonnie Langford and we've got William Russell.
57:42
I love the power of the document.
57:53
You. Win strictly come.
57:55
From Star, I mean, I think it's like I was going to say it's
57:59
like it's been improvised only. I used to do improv and you
58:03
would never improvise something like this because it breaks so
58:06
many rules. Like one of the rules in improv
58:08
is you don't do joining. That means you don't do a scene
58:10
that someone else has just done. But we get exactly that.
58:13
We get Janet Fielding and Peter Davison doing their scene and
58:15
then Celeste McCoy. And so if you want to do the
58:17
exact same scene and Even so I'm sort of goose pimples and I I
58:21
love it. I love it.
58:23
And frankly, you could put William Russell at the end of
58:26
time. Lash, and I probably voted him
58:29
that moment for that moment alone.
58:32
It's it's got my vote. I think there's something ironic
58:34
about the fact that Chibnall ends up basically writing his
58:38
own version of the trial of the Time Lord, which he famously
58:40
went on to television. To Savage, this does everything.
58:43
Like one of the best things I ever saw written in a review of
58:47
A Chibnall was that he he he criticized Doctor Who for being
58:50
just running up and down corridors and has spent his
58:52
whole life trying to avoid doing just that, but in all but them
58:57
being actual corridors. This is an episode of frantic
59:00
running up and down corridors, but they are the most
59:04
entertaining and beautifully realised corridors and I think
59:07
you'd have to have a heart of Steel not to absolutely love
59:10
every moment of this. I love the Janet Fielding Peter
59:14
Davidson scene where she says. What am I thinking with all
59:17
these Cybermen around here? And he goes, Patrick.
59:20
And there's a little pause. There's a little pause so the
59:23
1/2 of the audience can turn to the other half of the audience
59:25
and go. Who's hatred do?
59:29
You know what? I might shock you all, but the
59:30
bit between Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldridge.
59:34
Lovely. In a way that their own era
59:37
doesn't move me at all. That way goes to her.
59:40
The joy is to watch them fly. Oh man, it's it's so moving.
59:46
Ace Ace saying, just saying, taking a moment and saying to
59:49
the doctor I'm sorry we fell out, is a much better and truer
59:54
and more touching ending to their relationship than any
59:56
novel or audio or comic strip has managed I.
59:59
Think. And my God, there have been
1:00:00
plenty of them. Joe, do you want to continue?
1:00:04
I can't. Really top those two things,
1:00:06
kind of like because those were two great, great defences.
1:00:09
I just want to say Sasha to one. I think this is one of the best
1:00:12
ever performances of anyone as the Master, and he's absolutely
1:00:16
mesmerizing throughout and he gets to show lots of different
1:00:19
size to his character. The bit I love more than
1:00:21
anything with him is where he's sitting there Tooting on Patrick
1:00:23
Trout's whistle on that mushroom planet in complete silence.
1:00:27
But he he is, I mean. They get the tune right as well,
1:00:31
attention to detail. They play the They play the tune
1:00:34
that one of the tunes that Patrick Charlton learned to play
1:00:36
for Power of the Daleks. And how hot does he look with
1:00:39
his hair short in all of that doctor gear?
1:00:42
Oh man, oh man, I thought I couldn't fancy him more, but
1:00:45
here we are. And I know the idea of sort of
1:00:47
taking Jodie out in the middle of that episode, but I think
1:00:50
it's entirely justified by giving him that screen time and
1:00:53
really letting him shine. And boy, does he.
1:00:56
But then at the end of the story, we do come to that rather
1:00:59
lovely conclusion, which I think we came to at the end of
1:01:01
journey's end about the Doctor's friends being the biggest
1:01:04
strengths of him. But it's it's encapsulated more
1:01:07
here because we've just spent the last hour and a half
1:01:10
celebrating every single thing in classic and new who whatever.
1:01:15
Like the list goes on. I mean, I've got a huge list
1:01:17
here. My favorite bit is Tegan going
1:01:19
down the lift shaft with the side men attacking her, because
1:01:21
that took me back to earth shock.
1:01:23
But it's a wonderful conclusion to draw and a fantastic way for
1:01:28
her to go out. And really, I think the best
1:01:31
thing about this is that she goes out on a positive
1:01:34
regeneration. But we haven't done that very
1:01:36
much in the new series. I mean, we talked about at the
1:01:39
end of time before and we were all just going, will you fucking
1:01:41
die already? Like mooning around that TARDIS
1:01:44
in tears. But just saying, you know,
1:01:46
Doctor, whoever you are, tag your rear and then throw it out
1:01:49
of the energy. Had the show ended there, which
1:01:52
I am reliably informed could have been a possibility, I think
1:01:57
that would have been a perfect note to end it on.
1:02:00
Just hope for the future. And my other thing is just how
1:02:04
flawlessly executed this is. Jamie Magnus Stone.
1:02:07
What a find. This is Doctor Who, as close to
1:02:10
a Marvel movie as Doctor Who has come.
1:02:13
And it ain't a Marvel movement, obviously, but just a myriad of
1:02:17
locations of set pieces. Beautiful imagery.
1:02:21
You said there, Michael, about the sequence on the train, the
1:02:23
way that camera swoops in and out of that train.
1:02:26
We've just never seen set pieces like this in Doctor Who before
1:02:30
on every single level. It moves me.
1:02:32
It excites me. That whole thing about it being
1:02:35
like a child's wet dream version of Doctor Who.
1:02:38
Tick, tick, tick, tick. I love it.
1:02:40
Of course it's going through. Now Rod's going to tell us why
1:02:42
he hates it. I'm kind of superfluous now,
1:02:45
aren't I? Because he's going through
1:02:46
anyway. But can I?
1:02:47
Just leap in sort of before Rod Kicks goes off just to agree
1:02:51
about Sasha Dewan. I think he's brilliant in this.
1:02:53
I had an odd thought when I was watching it.
1:02:55
You know how sometimes people say that Jodie Whittaker is is
1:02:57
written as a sort of David Tennant ish Doctor?
1:03:00
It's like Duan is sort of playing Matt Smith to Whitaker's
1:03:04
David Tennant in terms of the way they interact with each
1:03:06
other. Just the thought I had.
1:03:07
Also, the fact that Chidnall basically turns him into the
1:03:09
valley yard. Again, bit ironic.
1:03:11
Oh, I'm sorry. Before we go over to you, Rod, I
1:03:13
want to reiterate what Michael's what James one of you said about
1:03:16
Mandy Gill. My God, she is.
1:03:19
She's great, yeah. Yeah, brilliant.
1:03:20
Holding the gun in the seismology place that bit where
1:03:24
he comes out and going, oh, I am the Doctor and she's holding her
1:03:27
own bit in tears, absolutely terrified right up until the
1:03:30
last scene where they're on the on the TARDIS together in the
1:03:33
ice cream. Like, I'm so pleased she did
1:03:35
that third year. Because you're right, Michael,
1:03:37
she was wasted a bit in the first two years, but boy did she
1:03:40
get some opportunities in that last year.
1:03:42
And how great to see Joe Martin again, you know, even though
1:03:45
it's only a cameo, basically, so many, so many good performances
1:03:48
in this. But who are you, Joe Martin?
1:03:54
Power of the Doctor. I could shit on archetype.
1:03:59
I could be uncharitable and say I'm putting it through because
1:04:03
at least it's the end of Chipnall.
1:04:05
But Joe, you mentioned Marvel and I think it has got a lot in
1:04:09
common with kind of Avengers end game or Infinity Wars.
1:04:13
This is a mad roller coaster. Goes across multiple planets,
1:04:17
different locations, different times.
1:04:19
And actually, think about it too much, it just falls to beds.
1:04:23
What were the paintings about apart from nicking the same kind
1:04:26
of visual clue as Day of the Doctor?
1:04:29
Oh. That was the master going,
1:04:30
Yoohoo. Why?
1:04:32
And why would AC even notice that some patient paintings have
1:04:35
been taken off for restoration? Doesn't make any.
1:04:37
Sense say it, but she's very clever.
1:04:40
Is the master Rasputin or is he just pretending at this time?
1:04:43
How does he? Clone, that is Rasputin.
1:04:46
It doesn't matter. It's really just an.
1:04:49
Excuse to do a musical sequence. Thank you, James.
1:04:51
That line should have been in there.
1:04:53
How did he clone Ashard? He suddenly mentions.
1:04:55
Oh, I cloned Ashard. How did that happen?
1:04:56
Why do you need a reason? Ashard.
1:04:58
Great. Because when it starts punching.
1:05:00
Walls don't look for reasons, Rod.
1:05:03
How does the Master taking the Doctor's body even?
1:05:05
Why doesn't he just kill her and pretend to be her?
1:05:07
And what's his plan apart from just getting some bad PR?
1:05:10
And why would it matter if she's dead?
1:05:12
That he's getting some bad PR because she's dead makes no
1:05:15
sense. Why Are there 2 reasons for
1:05:18
bringing back old Doctors? There's the Guardians, The Edge.
1:05:20
There's holograms. Bit confusing.
1:05:22
How the fuck does Tegan survive that fall?
1:05:25
She's falling down the lift shaft.
1:05:26
Next minute, she's just running into a.
1:05:27
Room. I can actually answer that one
1:05:29
at the end of Eric Saywood's masterful novelisation of
1:05:33
resurrection of the Daleks. He does in fact imply that Tegan
1:05:37
has got cybernetic implants, and so that's how she fell down.
1:05:41
But she just she was all right. Genuine point, Eric.
1:05:44
Saywood comes the rescue again. She's given a parachute and then
1:05:47
she falls down a massive shaft and survives.
1:05:50
I genuinely think they cut. They cut a shot or something and
1:05:53
didn't realise it doesn't make sense because they give her
1:05:55
exactly the way that you survived falling down a shaft
1:05:57
and then. It takes.
1:05:58
You are going gravity well. Now there we.
1:06:02
Go I mean. I think picking these faults is
1:06:07
just something as glorious as this is just superfluous.
1:06:11
However. Oh.
1:06:13
However, back in your box, Ford, however, it's my birthday.
1:06:19
On this occasion I'm prepared to sit back and go along for the
1:06:23
ride because I think like everyone else has said, it's so
1:06:27
much fun. I would just be a right old
1:06:29
Grinch to rain down on this one. It is fun.
1:06:33
It is like Marvel. So there's so many characters
1:06:35
coming back from the past, all coming together all teaming up.
1:06:38
There's always in a Marvel film, there's at least one character.
1:06:41
You think, where's they? And you don't really care.
1:06:43
That's Ryan. Thank God he didn't come back.
1:06:45
And there's always at least one character.
1:06:47
There's always 1 character to think.
1:06:49
Who the fuck? 'S that.
1:06:50
And of course that's Vinda, because nobody knows who he is
1:06:52
or why he's there. But do you know what?
1:06:55
It looks spectacular. It's got thrills, it's got
1:06:58
spills, it's got fun, it's got tears.
1:07:01
I can't not put it through. It's going to ask you all a
1:07:04
question. Go for it.
1:07:05
Who's on the laptop? On the chair?
1:07:08
It's. Supposed to be Sarah.
1:07:09
It's supposed to be a chair in remembrance of Sarah Jane.
1:07:13
We don't see it. There's a lot, actually someone
1:07:15
on Zoom. I think it's Dodo.
1:07:16
You think it's dodo? No.
1:07:17
She's got syphilis. I thought it.
1:07:19
No, I what I heard was that they put it in there because they
1:07:22
were hoping they this might be bollocks.
1:07:24
I heard it was there because they were hoping they could get
1:07:26
free Moragimen to potentially do a bit where they were zooming in
1:07:29
and they dropped Martha in. That's what I heard.
1:07:31
Well, that would have been a bit bit disappointing.
1:07:34
Lease holding up, Lease holding out from the 70s companion.
1:07:39
And you think it was Sarah Rod? Yeah, they said they don't want
1:07:42
to do a tribute to Elizabeth Slade, but who knows?
1:07:47
But yeah, I think it's great. There's so much emotion in here.
1:07:50
Even Chibnall moved me on this occasion.
1:07:53
Twice. Twice.
1:07:54
Once. Joe, I'm the same as you.
1:07:56
The 7th Doctor and Ace meeting is just perfect.
1:07:59
And actually, Mandip Gill, right at the very end when they're in
1:08:02
the Companions therapy group. Yaz, Sorry, Ace asks Yaz if the
1:08:08
Doctor's OK. And she just said, of course
1:08:10
she's OK, she's the Doctor. I just thought it was a
1:08:13
beautifully written line and it kind of made me well up.
1:08:16
And finally it bookends this era.
1:08:18
So we start with the Doctor falling into a train.
1:08:20
We end with the Doctor falling onto a train.
1:08:23
We've got the Master, we've got Ashad, we've got Cyber Lords.
1:08:26
And I do love the fact that the the Cyber Lords and the powers
1:08:29
they get in the Timeless Children comes back here and
1:08:32
actually is the resolution to this plot.
1:08:33
You'd almost think he'd designed it.
1:08:36
There's loads of loose ends left for the future.
1:08:38
There's loads of gaps, but it's great.
1:08:41
I can't not put this through. It's going through, Oh.
1:08:44
Thank God I couldn't handle it. I would like special, as I say
1:08:48
special mention for Jacob Anderson because we've mentioned
1:08:50
Vidrip passed through a couple of times.
1:08:52
He is glorious in this and gets absolutely nothing to do other
1:08:55
than to go around. He basically walks around fixing
1:08:58
bits of the plot that aren't working and explaining to his
1:09:01
own hands that he what he's doing.
1:09:03
The whole time was. That supposed to be Captain
1:09:05
Jack, though. I'm wondering if before
1:09:07
Barrowman, you know wasn't allowed on TV.
1:09:09
What? Because it the point of that
1:09:11
character was, it had to be someone with a gun that was
1:09:13
willing to use it right? When when to get the Master back
1:09:16
in that box? And I wonder if that was
1:09:18
supposed to be Captain Jack rather than Vinda.
1:09:20
Well, wasn't it supposed to be? Wasn't it supposed to be Jack
1:09:22
all the way through Flux as well, rather than Vinda?
1:09:25
OK. But yeah, could have been.
1:09:28
Sam, your Anderson's so hot. I mean, we got to.
1:09:30
But he is. But he is pointless.
1:09:31
And on your theory, Michael, Presumably therefore, Vinda's at
1:09:34
the bottom of the lift shaft to catch Janet Fielding.
1:09:37
She falls down. She.
1:09:38
Lands on top of him as he turns it through.
1:09:42
So that's one in, one out. Joe, over to you for your first
1:09:47
pick. I would like to champion the
1:09:50
star Beast, please. Very simply.
1:09:53
I think it There's massive heart back in the show again.
1:09:56
You can tell Russell's back straight away because we're all
1:09:59
about feelings and we're all about people, and we're in that
1:10:03
domestic setting again and with some of my favorite characters
1:10:06
ever. We've got Donna, we've got
1:10:08
Sylvia. And the conversation I really
1:10:12
want to focus on is the one between Donna and Sylvia about
1:10:16
Rose in the kitchen. And it is sort of to do with the
1:10:19
plot. But really it's just a just a
1:10:22
moment between these two people where Sylvia trips up and gets
1:10:26
it wrong and Donna just points out how fabulous her daughter
1:10:30
is. And I think I think I've been
1:10:33
there. Maybe you guys have been there
1:10:34
before and getting these things wrong in the past.
1:10:38
I just think that's captured really, really well.
1:10:39
It's what Russell does really, really well.
1:10:41
He focuses on people and sort of the mistakes that they make and
1:10:45
the flaws that they have. And I just, I really love that
1:10:48
moment. But throughout the episode
1:10:49
there's lots of sort of hearts to hearts between.
1:10:52
In between all the comic madness that's going on, there's there's
1:10:55
such heart. I wonder if it's a little bit
1:10:58
overplayed at the end. And I know that's a bit
1:11:02
criticised, all that sort of, you know, the the female Doctor
1:11:05
that's just gone, she'd understand this, let it go.
1:11:08
I don't understand why we have to sort of compliment women like
1:11:13
criticizing men. It's such a strange approach.
1:11:15
But the show is just full of heart again.
1:11:18
And right at the end of the story where you've got Tennant
1:11:20
and Tate in that spaceship and he knows that in order to save
1:11:25
the day, he's going to have to lose her.
1:11:27
And the two of them act in their hearts out.
1:11:29
Russell is back and I love the Shibuya, but I don't think.
1:11:34
And he manages to sort of get in and tug up my heartstrings the
1:11:37
way Rusty Davis does. And this absolutely told me that
1:11:40
he was back. Huge belly laughs in this as
1:11:43
well. My favorite moment in the whole
1:11:45
story is the bit where poor Jacqueline King has to tiptoe
1:11:49
past that man sleeping in the hall, but she's got to wait for
1:11:52
that fucking puppet to walk in front of her and she's doing her
1:11:55
best. I mean, it's really, really
1:11:57
funny. There's a glorious sequence, you
1:11:59
know, where we start off. It's an aerial shot of the road
1:12:04
and you've got the two armies fighting each other on the road.
1:12:06
Then CGI, what they call the RAF warriors, CGI RAF Warriors fly
1:12:10
past and then the camera swoops around and goes in through a
1:12:14
hole and you just think the meep crawling through and do you know
1:12:18
what it's like? It's like action there.
1:12:20
And then there's amazing CGI there, and then there's a laugh
1:12:22
there. And again, Rusty Davis makes me
1:12:25
laugh. So that's why I love this.
1:12:27
More importantly than anything, it's for the kids again.
1:12:30
And I think during Moffitt's time and during Chipnall's time,
1:12:34
we did some very sophisticated Doctor Who and we aimed it
1:12:38
upwards a little bit and there was some very worthy television
1:12:41
there. And I've detailed elsewhere that
1:12:43
I think Matt perhaps forgetting about the kids means numbers
1:12:47
drop, interest wanes, and the show heads towards that
1:12:52
precipice. Again, that it did in 1989, and
1:12:54
I think it did a couple of times during those eras.
1:12:57
And Russell just knows. He knows how to get attention.
1:13:00
He knows how to get the kids watching.
1:13:02
Beep the beep. Fantastic funny cute creation.
1:13:06
Just like the adipose. You know something that's
1:13:08
instantly fun. He's right there behind me on
1:13:10
the wall, and this is really told him massive broad strokes.
1:13:15
There's nothing incredibly smart or sophisticated going on here,
1:13:20
but it's something that, you know, a six year old can sit
1:13:22
down and watch with their parents.
1:13:24
People tell me that audience isn't there anymore.
1:13:26
I don't buy it for a second. The numbers did go up.
1:13:29
These have settled in at around 9 million viewers.
1:13:32
It's the most watched Doctor Who in a long, long time.
1:13:35
So yeah, heart laughs and kid friendly.
1:13:39
I think the Star Beast is a winner and it's a good
1:13:42
indication that the show has got longevity.
1:13:44
I'm putting it through. Fabulous Joe, you and I can sit
1:13:48
back now. Our guests are going to read the
1:13:50
listener comments. So over to you, chaps.
1:13:53
Well, Dylan Reese, who we must remember is not a well, man,
1:13:56
writes terrible mess, doesn't work on any level.
1:13:59
Dreadful script, zero chemistry between Tennant and Tate
1:14:02
cheapens journey's end as a terrible contrived resolution,
1:14:05
Awful techno apple, badly paced 0 scale.
1:14:08
Apart from the battle scene it looks cheap and unambitious.
1:14:11
Quite comfortably the worst bit of Doctor Who I have ever seen.
1:14:16
You can't remember, though he loves heaven.
1:14:18
Sent that old man walking around a castle for an hour, you know.
1:14:22
He he needs. Treatment.
1:14:24
He loves tying stuff. He also loves Autumn 3 so.
1:14:29
That's a very good point. We can disregard.
1:14:33
Michael Storm says typical RTD season opener, but being a
1:14:37
special it needs that extra shiny glow.
1:14:39
Get up and go. The meep is well realized, as
1:14:42
are the Wrath Warriors. The resolution is too simple and
1:14:45
reeks of the Star Trek Voyager reset button.
1:14:48
Jack Coyer has a suggestion The ending would have been more
1:14:51
successful if Donna had been suppressing the Doctor.
1:14:53
Donna Essence by choice, making the active decision to stick
1:14:56
with her family and acknowledge acknowledging her decision to
1:14:59
grow up. Then when the Doctor needs her
1:15:01
again, she realizes she can have both and still lead a fulfilling
1:15:05
life. Daniel Rawnsley Familiar RTD
1:15:08
elements leave a lot of room for humour and heart, with a quiet
1:15:12
meditation on how we define ourselves and how fate can
1:15:15
change us for the better no matter what comes our way.
1:15:18
Tennant and Tate are still so good, the meta crisis wrap up is
1:15:22
a bit too convenient, but when has that ever stopped things
1:15:25
from being fun? John Benzalia, less of a fan
1:15:29
Doctor Who, has featured political and social messages
1:15:31
for decades. The difference is that the likes
1:15:33
of Barry and Uncle Terence put plot 1st and then subtly weaved
1:15:36
in a message. RTT does it the other way round,
1:15:39
crudely sledgehammering a plot into heavy-handed moralizing.
1:15:44
Gareth Bowley This is where I feel like we ought to be doing
1:15:47
points of view style patronizing regional accents.
1:15:51
Couldn't even give us an original tile from the Usual.
1:15:56
That. Was in falling down a pit?
1:15:59
Couldn't even give us an original tale for a new launch.
1:16:02
Very disappointed. That was a retread of every RTD
1:16:06
trope. Good for a drinking game, but
1:16:08
not a series evolution. We could do it like that's life
1:16:12
and Sy, Hart said. It felt like a backward step,
1:16:18
but Tenant was surprisingly brilliant and the MEEP was
1:16:20
wonderful. Martin Parsons says engaging
1:16:23
enough, but so mired in Series 4, when it should be fresh.
1:16:26
As with all the 60th specials, feels like a celebration of RTD
1:16:30
one rather than a celebration of the show.
1:16:33
I fucking hate the magic screwdriver.
1:16:36
Donna's got boring. Can I can I interject there for
1:16:39
a second? Because I've heard a lot of
1:16:40
people say, yes, this is sort of skipping back to season four,
1:16:44
series four. Yes, that was absolutely
1:16:47
deliberate. After seasons and seasons of the
1:16:49
show losing interest, Russell Davis is pointing at a moment
1:16:53
where the show was really popular and saying, right, watch
1:16:57
this, it's going to be good again.
1:16:58
That's exactly what he was doing here.
1:17:01
Well, you'll enjoy Crashed Dummy then who says a fun return to
1:17:03
RTD who like it's never been away, it's slides.
1:17:07
But the story is secondary to the joy of having the characters
1:17:09
back, and I love the audacity of using a story from the comics
1:17:13
making it non Canon while running a Canon story in the
1:17:15
same magazine. Darren Lit Roundall says
1:17:19
forgettable but but the production was way more visually
1:17:23
appealing than pretty much anything in the chimney years
1:17:26
with the often nauseating heavy colour grading.
1:17:29
See if the Hampshire Lipped roundels David Gillespie Pratt.
1:17:35
I think I've finally come to accept that Doctor Who can and
1:17:38
just won't add up. Finally The Last Soldier has
1:17:41
fallen. There are how many versions of
1:17:44
The Star Beast I have to ignore and enjoy this for what it is
1:17:47
and it's fun. Not sure about undoing the End
1:17:49
to Donna story though. There are not as many versions
1:17:52
of the Star Beast as there are of Sharda.
1:17:55
Chris Hogben says. Fun, warm and gave me Donna back
1:17:58
everything I liked in the RTD era in one.
1:18:00
Hit go on Chris. Tree and visual A lot of fun.
1:18:05
Don't like the Sonic shield, but it was a well done homage to the
1:18:07
comics. The realisation of beep sets a
1:18:09
new high watermark for Doctor Who creature work.
1:18:12
The design was spot on and the blend between the digital and
1:18:15
practical is seamless. If this doesn't earn who a tech
1:18:18
BAFTA, there is no justice. Daniel Knight says enjoyable
1:18:21
enough but with but to start a new era with a remake of an old
1:18:24
comic strip was a bit weird. Loved seeing the nobles back and
1:18:29
how marvellous to have Miriam Margulies voice beep.
1:18:33
Dave Rennie, So much fun. Miriam Margulies is perfect as
1:18:36
the Meep. the Rose storyline is handled beautifully.
1:18:38
And Donna, of course, she's great.
1:18:40
The resolutions, the meta crisis is clearly How do I get out of
1:18:43
this though? LSJ says a light and fluffy good
1:18:47
time, but not sure it'll be one I revisit often.
1:18:51
Allsmai says really enjoyed this one.
1:18:53
Tennant and Tate immediately bring back their chemistry that
1:18:56
are this looks magnificent. Martin, who I feel has had some
1:19:01
damaging experiences, says loses points for the women let things
1:19:05
go line they don't in an argument.
1:19:09
My kids mum can pull up a text. In. 2005.
1:19:14
I know women like that. Has the error of an edited down
1:19:18
comment that one did. You edit that down rod.
1:19:22
I don't think I did on that one, though, he said, moving shiftily
1:19:26
to one side. Right, I'm responding to this
1:19:29
one, Joe, how weird. You started with saying heart,
1:19:33
and my first bullet point is heart.
1:19:35
So exactly the same reason it is.
1:19:38
It's just like a big warm hug, isn't it?
1:19:41
There's so many lovely moments in here and it's just it's just
1:19:45
warmth, it's family warms. There's so much about Donna and
1:19:49
her daughter in there. I think it's beautiful.
1:19:52
I love when love her. In inverted commas we see Rose
1:19:57
being dead, named by her classmates.
1:19:59
And Donna is just full of anger. We see her constant pride in
1:20:03
Rose and who Rose has become. We see her protective love and
1:20:06
her devotion. And Joe, you pointed out that
1:20:09
that speech when Sylvia slips up and says hey, the thing that I.
1:20:13
I love most about that scene. Is that possibly even in the old
1:20:17
days Comedy Donna would have weighed in and started shouting
1:20:21
and ranting. But she.
1:20:22
Doesn't. No, she doesn't.
1:20:23
She doesn't overreact because she knows Sylvia means no.
1:20:26
I'll intent it was a genuine slip and she corrects her but
1:20:30
moves on. I think that is just perfect.
1:20:34
And the and the kind of mother, daughter, love between Donna and
1:20:37
Rose kind of mirrored with Sylvia and Donna.
1:20:40
There's that wonderful conversation where Donna, we
1:20:42
think Donna's talking about her relationship with Rose, but
1:20:45
actually she's kneeling away at Sylvia to say what a great
1:20:48
mother, daughter relationship they have.
1:20:50
What's? The actress called Playing Rose.
1:20:52
Oh, Jasmine Finnick. Yeah, that's my one sticking
1:20:55
point in this. I just think that's a very
1:20:56
boring performance, very flat. Yeah, possibly.
1:21:02
Possibly. Stopped you in your tracks.
1:21:06
Yeah, I just there's lots of family love Sean's love for his
1:21:09
family. You know, he's only got a small
1:21:11
role in this, but you know, he supports his wife in every
1:21:14
decision she makes. She's, he supported her when she
1:21:17
wants to keep her, her original surname.
1:21:20
He supports her giving away her money to the lottery, you know,
1:21:23
he absolutely adores her. And we've got the Doctor's love
1:21:25
for Donna, this new incarnation. Eva admits that he loves her and
1:21:29
the fact again, Joe, you made the point.
1:21:30
No, he is prepared to let Donna self sacrifice.
1:21:33
He loves her that much. He wants to respect her choice
1:21:37
to save the 9 million people in London and her daughter by
1:21:40
sacrificing herself. So yeah, there's huge heart
1:21:43
here, and I think it feel to me anyway, it does feel more subtle
1:21:47
than RTD first time round. I think a bit like the 14th
1:21:50
Doctor. This is a slightly more mature
1:21:53
take than maybe we had back in the original run.
1:21:57
So that one reason I love it. The second reason is Shirley
1:22:00
Anne Bingham, the unit's new scientific advisor.
1:22:03
I adore the relationship between her and the doctor.
1:22:07
I think when they first meet, there's no big histrionics.
1:22:09
There's no big who are you? What are you doing?
1:22:12
They both understand who the other is.
1:22:14
It's quiet. It's calm.
1:22:16
They show total mutual respect for each other and just have a
1:22:20
quiet conversation. You know Shirley Anne?
1:22:22
She's intelligent. She's resourceful.
1:22:24
She's not encumbered by any limitations.
1:22:26
She kicks ass. Interesting how far we've come
1:22:29
from Anne Travers back in the web affair, and it's glorious.
1:22:32
And I love the fact in The Giggle Kate comes back.
1:22:35
But here for the first story we allow Shirley Anne to have all
1:22:38
the screen time to herself so that she's not overshadowed by a
1:22:42
familiar face. And what we're talking about,
1:22:44
UNIT. There are some very hot soldiers
1:22:46
in this as well, which also gets a bonus point.
1:22:49
And my last point is this is just perfect blend of comedy,
1:22:52
drama, spectacle, character. This is how you do a special
1:22:56
this is throwing all those elements together, pitching it
1:22:59
perfectly again. This you, Joe, you've talked
1:23:03
about some of the points I was going to growing up again.
1:23:06
The beautiful scene of them creeping through the loft and
1:23:08
down the stairs, I just think is hilarious.
1:23:11
I love the Wraith warriors. They were created in 1980s.
1:23:14
They've got a bit of Naiman about them on the stilettos and
1:23:17
a little bit of the Mandrels with their boggly eyes.
1:23:19
But do you know what? They still convince me.
1:23:22
I just think it looks good. It's great heart.
1:23:25
It's funny, It's moving, it's going through.
1:23:28
The comedy is not subtle. So I think, oh God, whether
1:23:30
you're going to enjoy that comedy or not, you know, the
1:23:32
whole bit with Donna and the Meep where she touches it and
1:23:35
goes, Oh my God, I can understand.
1:23:38
If you don't like hysterical comedy, then maybe that won't be
1:23:41
for you. But I just happen to love
1:23:43
Captain Comedy, so there we are. I'm, I'm the same.
1:23:45
I love it. It's going through for me,
1:23:47
Michael. Yeah, it's going through for me
1:23:51
as well. I interestingly of the three for
1:23:55
three, I've made specific note of that scene between Donna and
1:23:59
and Sylvia. I think just to 0 in for a
1:24:02
minute. I think an accusation that has
1:24:04
often been thrown at Russell T Davis and this episode in
1:24:08
particular is some some accusation that is somehow being
1:24:12
confrontational and provocative. I mean he is to an extent that's
1:24:14
the sort of right for us today because he wants to confront
1:24:16
issues he feels strongly about. But I think there's an argument
1:24:20
that he's adversarial. He doesn't.
1:24:22
He leaves no room for anyone who disagrees with him and I don't
1:24:24
think that's true and I don't think that's fair because I
1:24:26
think that scene with Sylvia is, as you've commented, very very
1:24:30
generous to to to the audience. It is a depiction of someone who
1:24:35
loves their granddaughter that is clear throughout but who
1:24:38
doesn't If you're in the words we've all heard people say you
1:24:40
know I don't quite but doesn't get it but wants to understand
1:24:44
and it is it's a very generous scene in in depicting that
1:24:47
rather than there's a version where they you know could just
1:24:49
be 100% all on board. It's all lovely.
1:24:51
But in saying no, I I understand how people watching this you
1:24:57
know may want may want to be there and be supportive but feel
1:25:00
like they're failing doing it as well.
1:25:01
I don't think if he was being as confrontational and drawing hard
1:25:04
lines as some of the accused of being that scene would be there
1:25:07
at all. And you know he's and that also
1:25:10
leads on to the fact that he is he's particularly wonderful in
1:25:12
in leading your journeys with these characters to to use a
1:25:15
terrible phrase. But you remember how Donna's
1:25:18
whole tragedy in journeys end is that she goes back to being the
1:25:20
character we met at the start. And I think similarly with
1:25:22
Sylvia, Sylvia was has gone from being such a deeply unlikable
1:25:26
character to someone that we are incredibly sympathetic with.
1:25:28
I, for me, she's, she's my favorite character in this whole
1:25:32
episode. For the way that she's just been
1:25:34
drawn on the fact that she wants to, the scene with her and the
1:25:37
the doctor at the front door is just brilliant of like, no, I'm
1:25:40
the one person in this whole scene who knows what's going.
1:25:42
I'm the one of the person who knows what's going on and you
1:25:44
parked up in here. I'm protecting my daughter.
1:25:46
A bit where she goes. You.
1:25:48
Yeah, just. Run out, back, marching down.
1:25:52
Oh, it's it's it's just it's just wonderful.
1:25:55
And I do think as well, something that's easy to miss is
1:25:56
when you bring back characters, even if you go, oh, it's been
1:26:00
oh, just because it's just because it's been only been 3
1:26:02
decades since I last saw the doctor.
1:26:04
You know, it can be a little bit like that.
1:26:06
But to actually feel that distance of time, I do think you
1:26:09
get the feeling that Sylvia is someone who her position has
1:26:11
changed. That's part of getting old.
1:26:12
That's also a nice reflection of Russell T Davis that, you know,
1:26:15
her daughter is now in her 40s, fifties, has has a daughter of
1:26:18
her own. Sylvia sort of moved up into
1:26:20
being the grandparent role. That's a dynamic that we see
1:26:22
change in our lives as we go along, and that's just without
1:26:25
ever being flagged up. It's just really nicely captured
1:26:28
here. You feel like it's been a while
1:26:29
since you've seen all these characters.
1:26:30
You do feel like they've had a life since since you last saw
1:26:33
them. So I think all of that is
1:26:35
wonderful. I think there's been a couple of
1:26:39
comments about it, it being a bit odd that you go back to an
1:26:41
old comic strip. But what's I I I approve of
1:26:43
this, I approve of this practice, and I think there
1:26:47
should be more of it, which is that, you know, Doctor Who has
1:26:49
got such a is is is is weirdly autophagic as a as a as a
1:26:57
franchise compared to many. Star Wars is constantly eating
1:27:00
itself. Star Trek is constantly
1:27:02
regurgitating all bits of Star Trek.
1:27:04
Doctor Who has got mountains of old comic books and audios and
1:27:09
novels little all over the place, some of which contain
1:27:12
really good stories. And I think, I think where we
1:27:16
know these really great Doctor Who stories are, we should go
1:27:19
and grab them and bring them to bring them to light.
1:27:22
Show them to people. It's fact.
1:27:23
There's a reason that human nature still appears in, you
1:27:27
know, top ten lists of people's episodes, because we already
1:27:30
knew it was brilliant. We wanted to share it with
1:27:31
people. Star Beast was always somehow,
1:27:34
to coin a phrase, quintessentially Doctor Who
1:27:37
without actually ever being on TV and not actually being much
1:27:39
like something Doctor Who had done before.
1:27:41
But it's very Russell T Davis to look at that and go, do you know
1:27:44
what baby? Yoda's a war criminal is the
1:27:46
perfect Doctor Who story for 2023.
1:27:49
So. So yes, I I approve of it in
1:27:52
idea and in execution. Fabulous.
1:27:55
James. I think we get Russell T Davis
1:27:58
at his absolute best in this. I think we also get him at his
1:28:03
worst. You've all mentioned the dead
1:28:06
naming scene and and and I think that's an astonishing piece of
1:28:09
writing. It's very subtle.
1:28:10
It's so clever to show a character being deliberately
1:28:13
dead named and then accidentally misgendered and to show the
1:28:16
difference and to show the reaction.
1:28:19
And I feel like this is writing for a family audience.
1:28:22
It's addressing a thing that is really complicated issue for for
1:28:27
all generations and it's showing that through all generations and
1:28:31
and it's showing it with such simple affection it.
1:28:36
It's managing to bring this whole complicated subject into a
1:28:40
into a single domestic scene that will resonate with anyone
1:28:43
watching it. I think it's so touching.
1:28:44
I think when Donna says I would burn down the world for you,
1:28:48
darling, it's just a wonderful moment of television.
1:28:54
I do think the ending is problematic.
1:28:57
I I think it's. I think it's a shame that having
1:29:01
dealt with gender in a way that's so sympathetic and so,
1:29:08
so, so resonant, I think and and and and and so simple and
1:29:12
subtle, I think it's a shame that it becomes part of the the,
1:29:15
the climax. I don't like that, Rose says.
1:29:20
I'm finally me as if it has taken this adventure to make her
1:29:24
accept who she is. I feel like she should have been
1:29:27
able to accept who she is without that.
1:29:28
I don't think we need the male, female, neither binary non
1:29:32
binary thing to be part of the plot.
1:29:34
I think that's two on the nose and I actually think it's going
1:29:36
to age quite badly in the way that the the earlier scene will
1:29:39
age beautifully. If that's problematic, I think
1:29:43
that saying that a male presenting Time Lord could never
1:29:46
let it go is really stupid. Like you've you've you've
1:29:50
written some wonderful stuff about the the the subtlety and
1:29:53
complexity of gender and then you're saying, Oh yeah, but men
1:29:55
can't let things go. I think it's nonsense, but it's
1:29:59
and but it's also it also turns the the drama into nonsense as
1:30:05
well because what? Just letting it go doesn't make
1:30:07
any kind of sense for what you've set up.
1:30:09
So I feel like this is Rusty Davis being self indulgent and
1:30:12
actually overwriting a thing that he's already done
1:30:15
brilliantly earlier on in in the episode and having savaged
1:30:21
Murray Gold in the plans of the dead.
1:30:23
An observation is that Murray Gold is he tends to basically
1:30:29
rise to what Rusty Davis has given him.
1:30:31
I think when Rusty Davis is on fire, Murray Gold turns him.
1:30:34
Brilliant, brilliant stuff. And when Rusty Davis is self
1:30:37
indulgent at Murray, Gold can go there as well.
1:30:40
And I feel like the under score for this whole end section is so
1:30:43
saccharine. I just feel like it's the last
1:30:46
10 minutes doesn't work for me and and and it goes on forever.
1:30:51
That final scene in the Tardis, that dialogue, it's something
1:30:53
like, OK, but you've given us this really fun episode and now
1:30:57
you're trying to make it very, very emotional.
1:30:59
And I I don't think it's earned and I don't think it's necessary
1:31:02
either. Fortunately, I think that weaker
1:31:05
side of this episode is very much the smaller proportion of
1:31:08
it. And I think for the most part
1:31:10
this is such a fun piece of television and fundamentally
1:31:13
it's really, really funny. And we need reminding sometimes
1:31:18
that Rusty Davis is a brilliant comedy writer.
1:31:21
I think the dialogue here sparkles and in the way that
1:31:27
Planet of the Dead didn't. It manages these deft changes of
1:31:31
tone for the most part really, really well.
1:31:33
And it's able to do kind of high jeopardy mingled with comedy in
1:31:36
a way that's exemplified I guess, by that that action
1:31:40
sequence where they're running away and you've you've got kind
1:31:43
of shooting going on, but you've also got the meat running past
1:31:46
going meat, meat. It's it's I think I I I totally
1:31:53
agree with Michael that this is a shrewd piece of Doctor Who law
1:32:00
to turn into a piece of television actually as as a
1:32:02
comic strip from that period. It is sort of fundamentally
1:32:05
Doctor Who wish in a way that Doctor Who could never have done
1:32:07
at that time. So what a clever thing to go
1:32:09
back to that and say well we we we've got the technology we can
1:32:11
do this. Now that action sequence is
1:32:16
worth dwelling on a bit because I think it's absolutely
1:32:19
brilliantly directed and I think Rachel Towerley does such a
1:32:23
fantastic job of this whole episode.
1:32:25
But that sequence I I I was sitting there thinking I'm
1:32:29
getting goosebumps. And the reason is because this
1:32:33
is doing something that Doctor Who did when I first fell in
1:32:37
love with it. I mean, I fell in love with
1:32:39
Doctor Who in the McCoy era, and I fell in love with remembrance
1:32:42
of the Daleks. And one of the things that has
1:32:44
is a sort of recognisable domestic setting with big
1:32:48
explosions. And you get exactly that.
1:32:50
You get a suburban St. and you get soldiers and lorries and
1:32:55
shooting and explosions, and it's shot in these beautiful
1:32:59
long shots. And one of the things that
1:33:00
irritates me about, you know for example, the Marvel franchise is
1:33:03
that it's so edited to the bone that you can often not even tell
1:33:10
what's going on. You don't have a sense of space
1:33:12
or where they are or how they relate to each other.
1:33:14
This has an honesty to it in that it as Joe said, you've got
1:33:17
that sequence where it's it zooms in from the flying things
1:33:20
to down through the hole in the wall and you can see exactly
1:33:23
where the they are crawling along the the attics at the
1:33:26
same. So you get a sense, a real sense
1:33:27
of location how they you know how much further they've got to
1:33:30
crawl to get away from the centre of this battle.
1:33:33
And throughout you've got these long and what must have been
1:33:36
really complicated sequences to set up where the camera doesn't
1:33:39
look away from it. It shows you everything.
1:33:42
It's such a classy piece of direction and the moment when
1:33:46
the doctor Neil's, you know amidst all this chaos to study
1:33:50
the soldier who's who's fallen. I, I I got the shivers and I
1:33:54
thought, do you know what? I think that tenant's gone a
1:33:56
bit. Sylvester McCoy at this moment,
1:33:58
he's got that professorial thing of he's able to zone out of the
1:34:02
the, the what, what's going on around him and focus on a single
1:34:05
human being and what's going on and ask questions.
1:34:08
I really enjoyed this one. Another thing.
1:34:12
So if if I'm going to three points, the dialogue is 1, the
1:34:16
direction is another. And finally the cast.
1:34:18
I think this is a beautiful ensemble piece, and it's full of
1:34:25
kind of small characters. The two Wrath warriors who
1:34:28
actually speak at the trial scene, They only have a couple
1:34:30
of lines each, but they're they're gorgeously delivered.
1:34:32
Fudge, a character who's much more of a major part in the
1:34:35
comic, pops up every now and then.
1:34:37
You see him observing things out of his bedroom window.
1:34:40
Absolutely glorious character and then the regulars.
1:34:43
And as I said before, I wasn't a fan of Tennant and Tate, I
1:34:46
wasn't a fan of that era. I just think they've dialled it
1:34:48
down and there's so much more humanity and truth in their
1:34:53
performances in this. I loved David Tennant in this
1:34:56
and As for Catherine Tate, who I really did have a problem liking
1:35:03
first time round I she broke my heart.
1:35:06
I think she plays being a mother so well.
1:35:10
It's it's a really rounded performance and unexpectedly, I
1:35:17
just found myself overjoyed that I was back in their company and
1:35:22
looking forward to spending another two episodes with them.
1:35:24
So definitely. Hurrah and Yabu sucks to Dylan
1:35:29
race. Sorry, Dylan.
1:35:32
I'm surprised by the sort of negativity in a lot of those
1:35:34
comments, so I I find this one a difficult one to to not like.
1:35:38
Joe, when I give my first reason on the next one, will you just
1:35:42
jump in with the obvious? Surely you mean heaven sent just
1:35:45
to just to get just to get there the first time we're rehearsing.
1:35:49
I know, I know, I just yeah. Otherwise I'll have to fill the
1:35:54
the gag in myself. And it's not a gag, but.
1:35:57
I'll try. I'll try all.
1:35:58
Right, that is not that hard to ask.
1:36:01
A little peek behind the laughter there.
1:36:03
Absolutely. It'll be my most wooden moment
1:36:05
in any podcast ever the. Most There's plenty of
1:36:09
competition, Joe. Plenty.
1:36:11
Get on with it. OK so over to me for my first
1:36:15
choice and I am going to go for Wild Blue Yonder.
1:36:19
And the reason my first reason for picking Wild Blue Yonder is
1:36:23
because it won the Doctor Who Monthly poll for the best story
1:36:27
ever out of the 1st 60 years. Oh wait, that's supposed to be
1:36:33
Heaven Sent Rod. Oh.
1:36:34
Joe, that was so smooth. And fluid it's.
1:36:39
All right, I could edit the pause.
1:36:41
Thank you for that. Thank you for that lime.
1:36:44
Surely that's supposed to be Heaven sent Rod?
1:36:46
Oh, James. Oh, that's now we're late.
1:36:49
Oh, I can't follow up a quip like that from James.
1:36:51
That was magnificent. Do I hear people shouting?
1:36:56
No, surely that's heaven sent. Oh, surely that's heaven sent.
1:37:00
Thank you, Michael. A chorus a very small.
1:37:04
The best Doctor Who story of the 1st 60 Years haven't.
1:37:08
Sent it. Yes.
1:37:10
Oh, I thought you'd talk about Wild Blue Yonder.
1:37:12
I'm so. Confused.
1:37:16
My point. Is.
1:37:18
That I'm making an. Analogy between wild blue Yonder
1:37:22
and heaven sent because they are very very similar so I watched
1:37:25
them. Which is really boring.
1:37:28
No, not at all. So they're both kind of majestic
1:37:32
puzzle boxes of stories where all the pieces are kind of shown
1:37:35
to us and gradually come together over the duration of
1:37:38
the episode. They're both incredibly
1:37:40
claustrophobic, despite the fact they're sitting in this huge,
1:37:43
gargantuan, bewildering location where the walls are constantly
1:37:47
changing and the Doctor can't escape.
1:37:49
In the TARDIS, they both have a very small cast which gives the
1:37:52
leads time to breathe and shine, and as a result they do absolute
1:37:56
powerhouse performances. The Doctor is allowed to show
1:38:00
his grief at recent events and what he's lost spectacular,
1:38:05
almost surreal visuals that push the envelope of what Doctor Who
1:38:08
can achieve on a budget. There's pace and momentum that
1:38:12
increases throughout the running time, leading us to a point of
1:38:15
almost unbearable tension and excitement.
1:38:18
And then we're transported off to a new location and the
1:38:21
promise of a hugely consequential chapter in the
1:38:24
Doctor's life. So that's not Heaven Sent.
1:38:28
This is actually to me doing what Heaven Sent should have
1:38:31
done because I think this is magnificent.
1:38:33
Whereas Heaven Sent sent me to sleep.
1:38:35
So I think I posted recently on Twitter saying I've just watched
1:38:41
what I think is now possibly one of my greatest Doctor Who
1:38:44
stories of all time and it is in fact Wild Blue Yonder, which I
1:38:47
think is superlative the doctrine Don relationship on
1:38:52
this Russell said, what is the point of bringing back David
1:38:56
Tennant and Catherine Tay if you're not going to see them and
1:38:58
we're not going to use them. So he absolutely uses them to
1:39:01
the Max here, and they are magnificent.
1:39:06
For the first 5 minutes alone. We see them being silly in that
1:39:09
opening scene with Isaac Newton where they're having a blast.
1:39:12
All that lovely snappy dialogue between the two of them, like
1:39:15
when the doctor reacts to the doctor saying that Newton is hot
1:39:18
and she said it was never that far from the surface mate.
1:39:21
It's just the way they they prickle at each other in the
1:39:24
only way the kind of old friends can do.
1:39:27
He's coded as a gay best mate in these three specials.
1:39:30
Isn't. He yes, he's definitely.
1:39:32
He's got that vibe. Yeah, absolutely.
1:39:34
But it's just the way they just bounce off each other and then
1:39:37
you go to that till like a few seconds later, Donna's absolute
1:39:40
fear when the TARDIS disappears on the Doctor Trans kind of
1:39:43
encourage and supporter. You go through that whole gamete
1:39:46
of emotions. That's just the 1st 5 minutes
1:39:50
and what I think is really, really clever.
1:39:52
One of the many things that's really clever about this episode
1:39:55
is that when they meet the not, they.
1:39:58
Russell doesn't allow either of our main 2 central characters to
1:40:01
get duped for too long so we don't get those awful and
1:40:04
terminable scenes. You kind of get in episodes
1:40:07
where there's an evil twin or a duplicate.
1:40:09
That one person's completely fooled the episode and they get
1:40:12
suckered in because actually that makes our heroes look dumb
1:40:15
and here that doesn't happen. What they do is they have 3
1:40:18
encounters with the not. They are different stages of the
1:40:21
not they's evolution and every time they meet them the Doctor
1:40:25
and Donna best them on know what's going on and recognise
1:40:29
it. Both our characters are at the
1:40:31
top of their game and each time they work it out until, and then
1:40:35
this. My final point, the climax.
1:40:38
And because we've seen the Doctor kind of recognise the
1:40:40
real Donna every time, up to now at the very end when he whisks
1:40:45
her away in the TARDIS, we believe that he saved the right
1:40:48
Donna yet again. And then there's that amazing
1:40:51
twist when we realised actually he's wrong and the bomb explodes
1:40:56
and I genuinely thought we were losing Donna at.
1:40:58
That point, I absolutely thought we were going to have a fake
1:41:02
Donna for the last special. And for Doctor Who, in this day
1:41:05
and age, with all the spoilers and everything that we know
1:41:07
about it, to pull that sleight of hand and make you genuinely
1:41:11
think we'd lost Donna, I think was just an amazing bit of
1:41:14
writing, an amazing bit of television.
1:41:16
And when he comes back for her, tosses out the old tonner out of
1:41:21
the TARDIS door, grabs the new one, it's absolutely punched the
1:41:25
air moments. So I love it for all of those
1:41:28
reasons. I almost ditched it a point for
1:41:31
ruining the gag in the pirate Planet about the Doctor climbing
1:41:34
up a tree and dropping an apple on Isaac Newton's head.
1:41:37
But this wins back to the point for adding Bernard cribbins at
1:41:40
the end. I think it's an amazing bit of
1:41:43
writing. I love this to death, Tension,
1:41:45
humour, comedy. So few actors but amazing.
1:41:50
Completely gripping. That's a very small aside.
1:41:53
Don't think I didn't notice you sending me all of those negative
1:41:56
comments about this episode, making me think that you hated
1:41:59
it. What I do.
1:42:01
I'm on to your game Mr., All right.
1:42:03
You kept telling me how good it was.
1:42:05
I thought I'd. I'd keep you on the edge of your
1:42:06
seat. No.
1:42:07
God this can, yeah. Don't give away my opinion.
1:42:10
This has got to go through. It's amazing.
1:42:13
Should we go to the comments from our listeners, James and
1:42:16
Michael, please lead us in. Well, Michael Storm says a
1:42:19
brilliant chamber piece with plenty of tension, creative
1:42:22
monsters and a Hartnell esque exploration open point deducted
1:42:26
for the seemingly irrelevant Isaac intro.
1:42:29
Snips says a perfect character study.
1:42:32
This is why the Doctor and Donna were brought back, which is
1:42:35
something I didn't feel was necessary in the other two
1:42:37
specials. Paul Smy says very mediocre and
1:42:40
the story bored me. Gareth Bowley.
1:42:43
Atmospheric, mysterious, and away from Earth.
1:42:46
Fab. Fraser Gregory describes it as
1:42:50
Disney does Midnight Rusty, showing us what he's super good
1:42:53
at, focusing right in on character detail, but with a
1:42:56
pocket full of mouse money. Not sure that's true though, is
1:42:59
it? The two scenes that bookend the
1:43:01
story are divine. So glad we got one last bit of
1:43:04
Wilf and Maverty. Still makes me laugh, but the
1:43:06
creepy haunted house event Horizon for kids main story is a
1:43:10
belter. Aaron and it Brandles the best
1:43:13
of the 60th. I didn't expect anything so just
1:43:16
enjoyed what it was. The simplicity of it really
1:43:18
worked for me and David and Catherine.
1:43:19
Sean. For someone who loathes abundant
1:43:21
CGI, I was fine with this. James H says a great idea, but
1:43:25
let down by some dubious green screen work talent and Tate on
1:43:29
absolutely top form and nice to see past events actually
1:43:32
addressed. Bored of the maverty joke now
1:43:35
though, But the Doctor Licking Things joke was done
1:43:37
brilliantly. Anti Parkinson, My fave knew Who
1:43:40
Story. Brilliantly atmospheric and
1:43:42
funny, it's a fabulous story. Tennant and Tate are wonderful.
1:43:46
Still waiting for character to bring out Jim Bow toy.
1:43:49
Daniel Rawnsley says Midnight Light is missing the point.
1:43:52
This is Doctor Who, as it should be.
1:43:54
A scary spacefaring adventure. Creepy, weird, using its CGI
1:43:58
budget to eerie rather than goofy effect, all entirely on a
1:44:02
sound stage. Nice to see RTD picking up on
1:44:05
Chibber's Flux threads. John Ben Sally though says a
1:44:09
funny way of demonstrating new ways of storytelling.
1:44:12
It's ironic that Post 2005 who is called New Who since the show
1:44:16
now feels massively outdated and old fashioned.
1:44:19
Dylan Reese says great script, brilliant performances, let down
1:44:23
by terrible special effects that set the quality of the show back
1:44:26
by 15 years. I'm not sure what Dylan was
1:44:29
watching. Am I watching a different
1:44:30
channel to him? He was.
1:44:32
Watching CBeebies. He was watching Auton 3.
1:44:36
Which has amazing special effects.
1:44:41
Tres says. I think I speak for everyone
1:44:43
when I say that wrong Donna scene had us all tensed up.
1:44:46
The whole episode was enjoyable. I love not knowing anything
1:44:48
about it. Just made the pay off Worth it.
1:44:51
Big Orange, Michael says. At the time, I thought this was
1:44:53
the best story we've had in five years.
1:44:55
I stand by this assertion showed that having two good actors is
1:44:59
the best special effect. Crash, Dummy says fantastic,
1:45:03
showing that RTD has lost nothing in the interview
1:45:06
intervening years. Amazing performances with
1:45:09
genuine chills, and if anyone dares to try and get rid of
1:45:11
Cribbin's final glorious appearance, they're mad.
1:45:15
Dave Rennie adores this. Two people alone in a weird
1:45:18
place and things happen. It always seems to work in
1:45:20
Doctor Who. Tennant is so good as bad, and
1:45:23
the plot peeling like an onion is terrific.
1:45:26
I'm glad we got this rather than an overcooked returning elements
1:45:29
story. Jack Coyer in interesting an
1:45:34
interesting experiment that would have worked better in a
1:45:36
full series with just three specials.
1:45:38
I think a broader dissection of Doctor Who's appeal would be
1:45:41
more fitting. The prosthetics and special
1:45:43
effects work is amazing, and I appreciated a rare look at the
1:45:46
vastness of space. If the flux time as children
1:45:48
stuff is going to be continued, let it be like this.
1:45:52
Stephen Rhodes says now you're talking properly.
1:45:54
Weird episode. I invoked to.
1:45:57
I invoked a superstition at the edge of the universe.
1:45:59
Feels like we're starting down a more surreal path now.
1:46:02
Not sure the wolf scene really fits in after all that.
1:46:05
Would I drop it though? Of course I bloody wouldn't.
1:46:08
Syhart Instant. Classic.
1:46:10
Imaginative. Scary.
1:46:11
Unsettling. Wonderful.
1:46:13
The ending was so tense. And absolute who says Weird,
1:46:17
tense, character focused and simultaneously claustrophobic
1:46:20
and huge, like a mad fever dream.
1:46:23
Great, but a little overrated and some of the visuals don't
1:46:26
work. OK.
1:46:28
So mixed, generally positive, but a few mixed comments.
1:46:32
Joe Wild Blue Yonder Yay or nay? Oh, for sure.
1:46:36
Yay. I absolutely love this.
1:46:37
That bit at the end where we all thought our Donna was going to
1:46:41
die, I leapt. I was leapt out of my seat on
1:46:44
the sofa. And I still have Mark's hand in
1:46:46
mind. I dragged him with me.
1:46:47
I was so excited. I don't think I've been as
1:46:50
excited. Probably since Walter Mars in in
1:46:54
Doctor Who terms, yeah. So I think the way did you say
1:47:00
was this is like a puzzle box. It reminds me a bit of tooth and
1:47:04
claw actually, How the setting itself is a is a trap for the
1:47:08
monster within, and Russell just does that so well, doesn't he?
1:47:11
But the simplicity of this, I really, really like the
1:47:14
countdown, the banging on the hole, Why did the airlock open
1:47:18
and close? What exists at the edge of the
1:47:20
universe? The whole thing is just a trap
1:47:22
for the no things and the way that plays out very gently.
1:47:26
Anyone that says doc who can't do sort of gently paced science
1:47:30
fiction now and and people will lose their interest.
1:47:32
What's bullshit? Because a lot of people watch
1:47:33
this. I don't know why I've written
1:47:37
Terminus done well. There's a lot of walking around
1:47:43
dark corridors for the first half, I think.
1:47:45
Yeah, but they didn't have Lisa Goddard, did they?
1:47:47
Making their way to the driving seat and realising that they are
1:47:50
at the edge, stroke the centre of the universe.
1:47:53
But you know, let's not bring Terminus into this.
1:47:55
No, the reason why this works so well is because it gives David
1:47:58
Tennant and Catherine Tate a chance to show why they are two
1:48:01
of the best actors on television at the moment.
1:48:04
And I think they're brilliant as the Doctor and Donna.
1:48:06
They're even more brilliant as the know things and the sort of
1:48:10
subtle scares that they're doing.
1:48:11
That insane look in David Tennant's eyes, that bit where
1:48:16
Donna convinces him that the the fake Donna convinces the Doctor
1:48:20
that she is Donna. And then she falls down into the
1:48:22
puddle and she starts, it's really creepy stuff.
1:48:27
And I just, I I don't know what people are talking about with
1:48:29
the CGI here. I think, yeah, you can tell it's
1:48:31
fake. Oh, they're not really on a
1:48:33
massive spaceship at the edge of the universe.
1:48:36
It's Kel sprees, but they pull it off really, really well.
1:48:38
But like Jack Wizard using the special effects to scare rather
1:48:43
than impress, I think it's great.
1:48:45
So that's sort of a bit where they're all mushed up in the
1:48:48
corridor, massive. It's really weird.
1:48:50
I don't know if any of you read the comic strip The Cruel Sea by
1:48:54
Rob Shearman. There's a lot of imagery in this
1:48:57
that feels like it's borrowed a bit from that, actually.
1:49:00
People melting and hands and arms that are too big, stuff
1:49:04
that just looks sort of a bit wrong.
1:49:06
Yeah, I I think this is absolutely amazing.
1:49:08
It's my favorite of the three specials I was creeped out by.
1:49:11
I was fascinated by the mystery. I was impressed by the acting.
1:49:16
I think this is a new director, isn't it?
1:49:18
I think the direction is superb. Yeah, And it for it is amazingly
1:49:22
good. Brilliant, James.
1:49:25
I must confess I did find the first half of this a little bit
1:49:29
boring the first time round, and I think that reflects badly on
1:49:32
me rather than this episode. Maybe, I don't know.
1:49:35
Does it say something about my expectations when watching
1:49:38
Doctor Who? I just want answers.
1:49:40
I want things to be to be shown to me.
1:49:43
Whereas this is just a beautifully paced piece of
1:49:46
television that sets up questions and mystery and
1:49:52
answers them just at the most perfect pace.
1:49:57
The comparisons with our episodes are interesting.
1:50:00
Heaven sent the Terminus done well.
1:50:05
I actually think it's maybe the arc and space episode one with
1:50:08
money. You know this these Chamber
1:50:10
episodes with with just the the cast.
1:50:15
I mean I love the Arkham Space Episode one, so why I wasn't
1:50:18
more into this the first time, I don't know.
1:50:20
But as I say, maybe I just wanted things to happen and
1:50:22
actually it it is an episode that requires a little bit of
1:50:25
concentration and a bit of patience.
1:50:27
The other comparison that people make is with Midnight.
1:50:29
Now I'm I'm out of step with the majority of fandom in that I
1:50:33
don't actually rate Midnight very highly.
1:50:36
I think it's an exercise in style with very little substance
1:50:40
and almost makes a virtue of not answering any questions.
1:50:44
There's a scene at the end where the Doctor says, yeah, we'll
1:50:46
never know what that was, which irritated me at the time, seemed
1:50:49
to me lazy. Whereas this sets up really
1:50:52
substantial questions and answers them all.
1:50:55
The not they, the no. Things have motivation, they
1:50:58
have history, they're a specific threat, It has real substance.
1:51:02
And the questions are answered not by exposition but by showing
1:51:07
things, by things like the the eerie scene of the Captain
1:51:10
floating in space as the Doctor works out what the back story
1:51:13
is. I think this is a brilliant
1:51:16
exercise in tension. I think that the this idea of
1:51:19
the edge of the universe is is, or trade in a way that's
1:51:22
genuinely scary. That panic that you get from
1:51:27
Donna at the start before she pulls it together feels very
1:51:31
real. It's a very claustrophobic and
1:51:34
lonely piece of television. And Murray Gold is on form here.
1:51:41
I mean, my goodness, this might be my favorite Murray Gold score
1:51:44
of all time. Though interestingly, I think
1:51:47
he's been watching the Gymnol era because I think this is
1:51:50
Marigold doing Sagan Akanola. Actually, it's very kind of
1:51:54
effects and drone driven and and all the stronger for it.
1:51:57
It's very effective. I've written down well and the
1:52:02
body horror, I mean what they do with tenant and I mean they are,
1:52:05
they are so scary, aren't they? Tenant and take can do bad,
1:52:08
really, really brilliant. They can do unhinged and it's so
1:52:11
subtly edited the way they first come in.
1:52:13
But the first time around, I wasn't sure whether we'd just
1:52:16
cut forward in time a bit and we were just in a different space.
1:52:18
And I think that's entirely deliberate.
1:52:20
It takes you a while to work out that there are there are
1:52:22
doppelgangers. James I I shame to admit that it
1:52:26
actually took me longer than the average person because my over
1:52:29
us going oh I'm like what what? I think that's.
1:52:32
I think that's entirely intentional.
1:52:35
And we're used to quite sexy editing on Doctor Who these
1:52:39
days. We're used to episodes that do
1:52:41
slightly unexpected things, so there's no reason why they
1:52:43
wouldn't have cut to another location without any kind of
1:52:45
warning. So yeah, entirely.
1:52:49
They're entirely manipulating the audience.
1:52:52
And I like that it doesn't patronize you either.
1:52:56
It waits for you to work it out. There's there's very few kind of
1:53:00
turn to camera and explain what's going on moments here
1:53:02
which means that when they get to these clever scenes where
1:53:05
they're trying to work out who each other are, we don't know
1:53:08
either. And that's the jeopardy and the
1:53:09
tension is all in the fact that we're still working it out
1:53:12
ourselves. I think it's I think it's as Rob
1:53:20
said capitalizing on the qualities of the actors that
1:53:23
you've got. You've got 2.
1:53:25
Brilliant cast members out, why not give them episode by
1:53:28
themselves and show what they can do?
1:53:30
And in conclusion, I've written down a pretty perfect size of
1:53:35
Doctor Who but for the pre credit sequence, which I think
1:53:39
is crap. It's such a shame that I mean I
1:53:45
not only is this pre credit sequence basically a retread of
1:53:47
an already quite tedious children in need skit, it's a
1:53:51
shit joke. It doesn't make any sense.
1:53:54
The word gravity comes from the Latin word gravitas.
1:53:56
Why would anyone come up with a? It doesn't make sense if it was
1:54:01
a. Joke.
1:54:01
No, no, sorry, sorry. We gave this bed out.
1:54:04
But James, no, it's it's the word mavity from the word
1:54:07
mavitas. I what you're saying that the
1:54:11
the doctor landing in that tree managed to change the whole of
1:54:14
the Latin language? No, no, no, no, no.
1:54:17
Russell T Davis is just explaining where we get the word
1:54:19
mavity from. If it was a joke in Maid Marian
1:54:24
and Her Merry Men, I'd roll my eyes in Doctor Who, in an
1:54:27
episode that that is taking itself very seriously, it
1:54:30
doesn't make any sense at all. I also think it's really badly
1:54:33
performed. They do you want to lay it on
1:54:35
anything? Also, OK, if you're going to do
1:54:39
that joke in the in the Star Beast, there's a scene where
1:54:44
beep the meep or I think we just say the meep in this version,
1:54:47
don't we? The Meep is is giving us a load
1:54:49
of techno Babble and says brandish the gravity stanchions.
1:54:53
If in the previous episode Meep had gone brandish the maverty
1:54:57
stanchions, which would have been fine in context because
1:54:59
he's talking goggy gook anyway, we could at least have had that
1:55:03
call back. But as it is, I think it's a
1:55:04
really, really rubbish joke and doesn't work and doesn't work in
1:55:08
the context of this brilliant episode.
1:55:11
But you know, I'll give it a pass.
1:55:12
Because Bernie Cribbins, so does.
1:55:14
It undermine the maverty of the situation.
1:55:16
I was just about to make that same joke.
1:55:20
For once, I wasn't going to be so obvious.
1:55:23
For once, Michael. Yeah, it it yeah.
1:55:29
It's interesting. I think a lot of what's been
1:55:31
discussed about this, and especially comparing it to
1:55:33
Heaven Sent, is something that Doctor Who doesn't really do
1:55:37
much of, considering. Its premise is every single
1:55:41
episode we land somewhere new and just step out of the doors
1:55:45
is dislocation. Charlie Brooker complaints about
1:55:48
this with the the back in the first David Tennant era that the
1:55:52
Doctor always knows that. He always knows.
1:55:54
He always knows. Oh yeah, here we are on New
1:55:56
Earth in the Year 5, period 36. And over there there's a great
1:55:58
Delia down there. And here's my old mate.
1:56:00
And yeah, now we're going to solve this.
1:56:01
Oh, it's all right, because I know what's going on here.
1:56:03
But every now and again they actually do an episode where
1:56:06
they land, they go, I don't know what's going on.
1:56:07
And it's a really, it's a really fine seam to mine for horror
1:56:17
because we don't know where we are, we don't know what's going
1:56:22
on. There are things that we can't
1:56:23
explain. There's a rich history of this
1:56:27
in in, in in horror, in literature, in cinema.
1:56:30
If you think of films like The Shining, for example, or The
1:56:34
Blair Witch Project, you know, to take some of the some of the
1:56:36
more obvious examples where you know there's something that's
1:56:40
threatening you. You know there's something here
1:56:42
that's making you uncomfortable, but you can't explain what it
1:56:45
is. And the horror isn't derived
1:56:46
from the threat. The horror is derived from not
1:56:50
understanding what it is that is going on and happening to you.
1:56:53
And I think Russell Davis does a really good job.
1:56:56
It's because it's really hard to get right.
1:56:59
There are so many bad horror films, horror books, where it's
1:57:04
just what's going on, What was that?
1:57:06
What's going on over here? What's that banging sound?
1:57:08
Why are we here? I don't know.
1:57:09
I don't care. Just leave the situation.
1:57:13
But here he constructed very effectively he those moments
1:57:16
you've you've described both in terms of the actual production
1:57:19
direction of the episode, but but also in how we are, how we
1:57:22
are given information because actually we.
1:57:25
We. It's interesting you describe
1:57:27
the know Things as being really well drawn and really well
1:57:30
developed. By the end of the episode, we
1:57:32
still know barely anything about them at all.
1:57:34
There's a version of this story where they go, oh, actually,
1:57:37
they were. They were coaxial reality
1:57:39
vampires from the Libra Nebula. If Tearing Sticks wrote it, they
1:57:44
would be. Yeah, and it'd be really
1:57:45
annoying. But the fact that we feel that
1:57:48
the threat is so developed without really fundamentally
1:57:51
understanding what the threats posed is it's of replacement,
1:57:56
which is, you know, a very present threat.
1:58:00
It's interesting. This came out in the same year
1:58:01
that you know was going on about AI and the idea that the more
1:58:04
information you give this thing, the better it can, the better it
1:58:07
can replicate. You felt felt very contemporary
1:58:11
without really hitting it on the nose.
1:58:13
But also even obviously there's there's that theory in from
1:58:16
Freud and in in horror that you hear talks about a lot of of the
1:58:19
uncanny, of the unhindered, which is the thing that is
1:58:22
terrifying because it is very, very, very, but not quite like
1:58:27
the thing you know, the thing you recognise.
1:58:29
It's literally the unhoply and that is really key here.
1:58:34
I I sort of wonder when people talk about the special effects.
1:58:37
I OK the choroid a bit yeah fine.
1:58:41
But when they're talking you know people's someone on Twitter
1:58:46
make a comment of you know, David Tennant's big hands go,
1:58:48
well that's fake now, which of course it is.
1:58:52
I've never met David Tennant, but I assume his hands are not
1:58:54
that big. But what is unsettling is, is
1:58:57
the image no? No, he's such a good actor.
1:58:58
He actually can change the size of his hands.
1:59:01
Enlarge And his jaw too. Amazing.
1:59:04
People don't give him the credit for that, do they?
1:59:14
But it is that idea of taking something and twisting it
1:59:16
because I what I am so impressed by when you're watching this
1:59:18
episode is how little we know at the start and how little we know
1:59:22
at the end and yet we feel like we What we have gained is a
1:59:26
comprehension of the threat and it cannot be undersold how hard
1:59:32
that is to do well because it has to make you scared and it
1:59:35
has to make you feel like there is a threat here, like you are
1:59:38
going to die And as we've said like you could mix it up.
1:59:41
There's the fact that we believe that he's taken the right honour
1:59:45
until we realise he hasn't is entirely learned through
1:59:50
everything through everything that has happened there.
1:59:54
And I would just say finally that you know, special effects
1:59:59
in Doctor Who maybe not afraid to go pulling out.
2:00:03
And actually, do you know what a lot of the Star Wars stuff that
2:00:05
they shoot in the volume, you can tell it's in the volume.
2:00:09
You know, it's I don't think a lot of Star Wars TV is any much
2:00:14
better than we were seeing in in Wild Blue Yonder So.
2:00:17
The special effects in this are brilliant.
2:00:19
Yeah. People are talking about.
2:00:20
I think it's a really. Amused.
2:00:22
Too, Yeah, they're on. And it's all going around like
2:00:24
the mechanisms of a clock. It looks amazing.
2:00:27
And the. Ending the explosion at the end.
2:00:29
It's it. You know it.
2:00:30
It does it all really, really well.
2:00:32
That is one of the best explosions ever.
2:00:33
It's terrific, isn't it? Gorgeous.
2:00:35
And that's very simple. Effect Shot of the probe going
2:00:38
out with the light into the darkness.
2:00:40
That's gorgeous. Yeah, apologies, I have no, I
2:00:43
have no objection to the special effectiveness.
2:00:45
I was referring to wrong people. We appreciate that.
2:00:51
You know, in that climax where they're running down the
2:00:53
corridor and it's ramping up and the music's ramping up and it's
2:00:56
all going to hell and we've got to try and stop this bomb going
2:00:59
off. There's still one moment
2:01:01
fantastic joke where Donna punches herself in the face and
2:01:04
goes, oh, that was therapeutic. And I'm laughing and I'm scared
2:01:09
and I'm like, Oh my God, I can't feel anymore watching this.
2:01:11
Oh, it's terrific. Fabulous.
2:01:14
So second time round. We've managed 2 hours so far on
2:01:18
half the stories. This is what happens when we
2:01:21
bring back, you know, impressive guests.
2:01:23
Intelligence. Articulate guests rather than
2:01:25
just you and me. Joe, right.
2:01:26
Yeah. Michael, your turn.
2:01:29
I think take off James kicked off last round, so go for it.
2:01:33
Pick your story of choice. I am going to go for because,
2:01:42
you know, we had to bridge it. At some point.
2:01:45
I'm going to bring out into the lights Legend of the Sea Devils.
2:01:50
Gentle with it, gentle with it, because I wanted to.
2:01:56
I want to be gentler with it than I fear others may be.
2:02:00
So no, I'm not putting it. I'm not.
2:02:03
I'm not arguing that we put Legend of the Sea Devils
2:02:05
through. Shall we begin with its
2:02:09
failings? If it.
2:02:11
Hasn't. I mean, we've got to go to this.
2:02:17
If it was not hacked to pieces in the edit when they were told
2:02:20
they only had 45 minutes when they thought they had an hour,
2:02:23
it is astonishing how much it looks like it was.
2:02:27
Even by the standards of a Chris Chipmel episode.
2:02:31
Things are not explained, things are just done.
2:02:34
There is a certain there is a certain degree to which at times
2:02:38
it seems to be speaking the language of Doctor Who
2:02:40
phonetically. Where they go now and they pull
2:02:44
a net that wasn't there and that wasn't established what's going
2:02:46
on? And you've got this really
2:02:47
strange thing where where you've got Jodi Witty going oh see a
2:02:51
flying Sea Devil. Now I've seen it all off Sea
2:02:53
Devil with a spaceship with a sailing ship.
2:02:55
Now I've seen it all again. Sorry, sorry.
2:02:57
I'm the majority of the audience over here who doesn't know what
2:02:59
a Sea Devil is. Why are we, why are we already
2:03:02
undermining what's happened? And by the way, this, this
2:03:05
device that can apparently do anything, the Keystone is the
2:03:10
Mcguffiniest Mcguffin that we have ever seen in the entirety
2:03:13
of Doctor Who. And I'm going to be charitable
2:03:15
and to see that there. Was I I?
2:03:17
I must say, the moment in Day of the Doctor Is that.
2:03:19
But go on. Oh well, we'll get on.
2:03:20
We'll get on to the moment, at least.
2:03:22
The moment has is actually has Billie Piper giving a
2:03:25
performance. At least there's an idea other
2:03:28
than literally this is a thing. What does stuff?
2:03:31
I'm going to be charitable and assume that there was more
2:03:32
explanation given to this in the scenes that presumably were cut
2:03:37
out. I don't know.
2:03:40
It makes the dragon fire in dragon Fire look like something
2:03:43
substantial. It sort of proves that there is
2:03:48
only unless you're being very clever, there is only one
2:03:50
solarium plot, which is they want their planet back and we
2:03:54
don't really see much of a reason to do anything else with
2:03:58
them. Only here we're sort of going to
2:04:01
assume that everyone is already bored of that plot, so take it
2:04:04
as red and we're going to dress it up in some fancy costumes.
2:04:09
Oh my God, there is 2 Chipnall and his quippy dialogue must go
2:04:15
away. This is really very annoying.
2:04:17
Don't you like my moves better than your outfit?
2:04:22
Hilarious. If you were, if you were stuck
2:04:26
on a team away day with people talking like that, you would be
2:04:29
on LinkedIn the moment you got home.
2:04:30
You'd be you'd be begging for the sweet release of death.
2:04:33
I was stuck on an away day with, say, Chris Chibnall, one side
2:04:37
with, you know, Wi-Fi, family jokes and Steven Moffett on the
2:04:40
other side with his don't. Bring Moffett into.
2:04:43
It here we. Go.
2:04:44
That's my idea of. Oh, that is.
2:04:46
You had to bring them off in, didn't you?
2:04:48
Oh, yeah. Just let it go.
2:04:49
Let it go. Is it always like this at sea?
2:04:55
That's not a joke. That's that's oh, it's not the
2:04:57
joke. Apparently it's delivered as if
2:04:59
it's a joke. It's.
2:05:00
I forget who said this. It was a very.
2:05:01
What about no ship, Sherlock? Now that's a good line.
2:05:04
That's a good line. It has.
2:05:05
OK, I'm noting it down. Look, here's the Here's my pen.
2:05:08
Thank you. It's delivered really badly. 11
2:05:11
Good. There is one good line among
2:05:13
many, many others. That one, Is it always like this
2:05:18
at sea? You're right.
2:05:18
Is that a joke? They say it as if it's a joke.
2:05:21
It's put to the it's put to the scene as if it's a joke.
2:05:24
And yet there's absolutely no humorous content in there
2:05:27
whatsoever. I don't know what would have
2:05:28
what set up would have had to have been cut for that to make
2:05:31
any sort of sense wet. So the sea devil, they went back
2:05:34
in time and the Keystone was lost on the first pirate ship
2:05:39
that we never see, we're just told about.
2:05:41
Also, they get the date of the sinking wrong, then it's picked
2:05:45
up by the other second set of pirates, who we do see.
2:05:48
Then they lose it. Oh no, they don't lose it
2:05:50
because the sea devil caught up with them and not the first
2:05:52
ones. But that gets away, and then
2:05:54
that goes away and they take that and they escape to the
2:05:56
shore just over there. Just we're we're taking the
2:05:59
Keystone. We're going just there, the
2:06:03
Chiefs. I'm glad you're keeping up.
2:06:05
At some point, the chief sea devil gets turned into stone.
2:06:07
We don't find out when that doesn't happen at the end of the
2:06:10
flashback, so presumably there's another bit lost there.
2:06:13
Again, I'm being generous. Stuff like this happens in a lot
2:06:15
of Chris Chibnall scripts that we're not sure you know into
2:06:18
pieces. So also what it can do is as
2:06:21
well as being able to reverse the earth's magnetic polarity
2:06:25
and melt the ice caps and maybe do some and also hold people and
2:06:28
suspended animation in time. What it can also do is sometimes
2:06:31
it does that, but then other times it can also turn people
2:06:33
into statues, except they're not statues, they've just got a bit
2:06:35
of statue over the top of them. Then if you break the statue,
2:06:37
then sometimes the keystone doesn't work anymore.
2:06:39
And I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
2:06:42
Also, the Sea Devils look rubbish.
2:06:43
I'm sorry for any. I'm sorry for any.
2:06:46
I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Eddie.
2:06:48
I'm sorry. This is terrible.
2:06:52
They look. I'm sorry.
2:06:53
I'm sorry. I'm just here dropping truths on
2:06:55
you. They look terrible.
2:06:58
They look. What was it?
2:06:59
Okay, I know what's going to happen.
2:07:01
Spoiler alert. We're going to talk about the
2:07:02
Day of the Doctor. Joe's going to tell you that the
2:07:04
Zygons looked rubbish. If the Zygons, The Zygons look
2:07:12
rubbish in Day of the Doctor then there is no badly painted
2:07:16
polystyrene rock to hide behind on the legend the Sea Devils in
2:07:19
the year of our Lord 2022. You cannot take the public, the
2:07:24
licence fee payers money and put on television for a series
2:07:29
that's in pretty dire straits in public standing, have a monster
2:07:32
that has a mouth that doesn't move and put a little flashing
2:07:35
light underneath it. I'm sorry it was crappy Warriors
2:07:38
of the deep. It is an excusable mistake of
2:07:40
our Lord. Let me finish, I'm.
2:07:42
Not finished? OK, go on, The prosecution
2:07:45
continues. I, like most people, think the
2:07:48
classic Doctor Who's Silurians look much better than the new
2:07:51
series Silurians. Of course they do.
2:07:53
However, this made me understand the production necessity of
2:07:56
giving them a face that moves. It's because there's no way to
2:08:00
make this work on a podcast. But just imagine, I'm just here
2:08:03
going, oh, what a shoe devil. This is how I talk.
2:08:07
Now this looks really natural and this isn't going to bother
2:08:09
anyone else. Your lips, the animation.
2:08:11
They've tried to put some animation on it and what it just
2:08:13
looks like is one of those AI filters that you put over an old
2:08:17
Facebook, an old Facebook photo and go, oh look, it's moving, go
2:08:20
no it's not. The eyes are just expanding and
2:08:22
shrinking. They look rubbish.
2:08:24
However, I wanted to be gentler than anyone else would be on
2:08:29
this episode, and I feel I have been.
2:08:30
I feel I have been this. Really is the best.
2:08:33
This really is the best defence that can be offered.
2:08:37
I, I, I the the reason I want to split it up is that I I do
2:08:40
think, as has been hinted, a lot of those flaws are things that
2:08:43
are indicative of a lot of stuff that went on with Christian that
2:08:46
that happens in this era. There is a lot of quippy
2:08:48
dialogue. There is a lot of stuff that
2:08:49
doesn't make sense. There is a failure to join up
2:08:51
very obvious plot threads. I would like to say though that
2:08:54
I do think it's costumes are beautiful and the sets are
2:08:57
beautiful and I really like that they did the Merca as a Kaiju
2:09:01
and I'm pretty sure the music is quoting the original Godzilla
2:09:04
when it attacks, but I could be wrong.
2:09:08
Well, thank you for that, Michael.
2:09:09
Basically, you said it's shit, but you said it ever so nicely,
2:09:13
so I appreciate that. Actually, I will say at least
2:09:16
those Sea devils are fucking manoeuvrable, OK?
2:09:19
They've got a there's a bit of dynamism.
2:09:21
They're not just be bits of rubber just standing there, you.
2:09:24
Can't compare it to 1983. I'm talking about Diane, the
2:09:29
Doctor and the Zygons. Oh, here we go, Moffett bashing.
2:09:34
We haven't even started yet. Should we go to the comments?
2:09:36
We're still on Chipnall bashing at the moment.
2:09:38
Thank you. Lucy McCall, Nigel Horsler and
2:09:41
the undersea world of Octopus, Octopus.
2:09:45
They all made the same comment that this is fun.
2:09:48
John Vesalia says stretches the definition of special to the
2:09:51
limit. Jodi's Peggy from Heidi hi
2:09:54
shtick has worn thinner than Paul Daniels wig, and the story
2:09:58
is instantly forgettable. Result of 101 order and
2:10:02
meetings. I think he liked it.
2:10:05
Fraser Gregory here we go. He's he's been all right so far.
2:10:08
He's. So contrary.
2:10:09
I know he'll love it. What?
2:10:11
Do you think that's a good explanation?
2:10:13
Fraser, Gregory, Fraser Gregory by the Frasers.
2:10:17
Ahoy there, Fraser says. And ahoy to you, sailor, a
2:10:21
really fun story. Jesus Christ, that brings the
2:10:24
Sea Devils back in style. I I I'm not going to be able to
2:10:27
read this one. It's sadly cuts or shreds, which
2:10:30
makes it less coherent than you'd like, but there's so much
2:10:33
to enjoy, from ghost ships to pirate down to the Merca that's
2:10:37
not a Merca to sword fight the TARDIS aquarium scene.
2:10:41
Thankfully the cuts didn't affect the real heart of this
2:10:44
story, which is the Doctor and Yaz dealing with their feelings.
2:10:47
Beautiful stuff. Just beautiful.
2:10:51
Martin Parsons says worth it just for the land parasite
2:10:54
retort, but such a mess the Chipnel years almost always feel
2:10:58
too draft short of a shooting script.
2:11:01
Darren Lit, Randall says. Utter garbage, No idea what the
2:11:04
plot was, and I have no desire to find out.
2:11:06
A clearly unsuitable, inexperienced director.
2:11:10
I bet the behind scenes is way more exciting than the disaster
2:11:13
on screen. Bless them.
2:11:16
James HI have no problems with this?
2:11:18
Oh my God. He has every muffin story and he
2:11:20
got no problems with this. It's another lightweight rod
2:11:24
with some good laughs. The regulars having a ball one
2:11:26
attempt to do something different with the Sea Devils.
2:11:28
Consider my bubble swashed and it's a definite keep.
2:11:31
Dave Rennie says, Oh dear Sea devils who jump guess characters
2:11:35
not explored, overblown CGI. The only redeeming bit is the
2:11:38
scene at the end. The rest is utterly disposable.
2:11:42
LSJ Not as bad as people make out.
2:11:43
I think it would have been received better had it been an
2:11:45
episode in the season rather than a special.
2:11:48
Chacoya says after executing a pretty good Lockdown special,
2:11:51
which means Eve of the Dialects, the show decides to discard a
2:11:54
strategy that worked well. Everyone will savage this, so
2:11:58
I'll give some positives. The Sea Devil prosthetics and
2:12:01
costumes are fantastic and this has some great 13 and Yas
2:12:04
romance bits. Rob.
2:12:07
David Gillespie Pratt The underworld of the modern age.
2:12:11
Something clearly isn't right behind the scenes, and for once
2:12:13
it shows. Perhaps if it knew, if we knew
2:12:16
more about what happened, we might be kinder to it.
2:12:18
Or give me Underworld any day, Jason Thompson says.
2:12:21
Should have been way better. It commits the sin of including
2:12:24
a real historical character and failing to have that in any way
2:12:28
relevant. Which is a shame, as Madam
2:12:30
Ching's story is actually pretty damn amazing, and it would have
2:12:32
been good to have heard something beyond, oh, famous
2:12:36
female pirate. Michael Storm A disappointing
2:12:39
return for the Sea Devils as they become generic monsters and
2:12:42
have abilities because the plot says so.
2:12:45
Dan is bizarrely deciding to cosplay as a hook handed pirate
2:12:48
and then attempts to reconnect with his crush who's missing a
2:12:51
hand. Oh God, I would like to think
2:12:55
this is to show everyday ableism, but there is no bounce
2:12:59
back. It just seems Grassley out of
2:13:01
character. I didn't pick up on that till I
2:13:03
read that comment and I thought actually I.
2:13:07
Think Chimney would completely miss?
2:13:09
Yeah, Trey says. I can respect It's not
2:13:11
everyone's cup of tea. I think that's an
2:13:13
understatement, but I find it to just be a nice episode.
2:13:17
I do feel the Sea Devils went down too easily, but other than
2:13:19
that it's a lot of fun. Daniel Knight could have been
2:13:22
spectacular, but COVID restrictions and edited work
2:13:25
against it. The redesign of the Sea Devils
2:13:27
is so much better than the redesign of the Silurians.
2:13:30
Ida says. He says Stick that in your pipe
2:13:32
and smoke it. Michael Mills, the.
2:13:35
Person on the Internet, said it, said the man.
2:13:39
Ida says somehow simultaneously. Utterly.
2:13:41
Quotable, possibly more than any other episode of its era, bar
2:13:45
Jodi's debut, yet also an utterly forgettable story.
2:13:49
Is it utterly? Quotable the only quote I
2:13:51
remember and keeps saying that's impossible several times.
2:13:55
The bit I quote the most is where the Sea Devil says twat to
2:13:59
the 13th chapter. Joan Willan.
2:14:02
I don't get the dislike for it. It's not bad for a chip new
2:14:04
episode. It's better than most.
2:14:07
Paul Smy says utter and complete disaster.
2:14:09
There's nothing to redeem this awful story.
2:14:12
Gareth Bailey Good tale that sadly gets overshadowed by the
2:14:15
specials either side of it. And my favorite comment?
2:14:18
Alexander Grogan says The equivalent wearing a mankini at
2:14:21
a funeral. Not appropriate, weird and ugly
2:14:25
to look at it. Is worth mentioning this wasn't
2:14:28
actually primarily written by Chris Chipnall.
2:14:31
No Ella Rd. because it was it was Co written, wasn't.
2:14:34
It oh, I do put it. I just.
2:14:36
I rather. Think Chipnall did the the Yas
2:14:38
bits, you know, the romance bits, and she wrote all the
2:14:40
rest. Ella Rd.
2:14:42
Ella Rd. That's an address.
2:14:47
Unfortunately, that address has been condemned.
2:14:48
It's. Because the script was so
2:14:50
terrible, it's like I don't want to put this out under my own
2:14:52
name. My partner used to live on Ella
2:14:55
Rd. No.
2:14:58
Well, she's got a lot to answer for.
2:14:59
Was it a complete and utter disaster?
2:15:03
James, over to you. I just go on.
2:15:07
I was going to say I think Michael's made his feelings
2:15:09
clear. So.
2:15:10
He has. I don't.
2:15:11
I just can't work up the energy to feel anything much about this
2:15:16
episode. I if it all feels very
2:15:20
inconsequential. And yeah, the plot is nonsense.
2:15:23
Let's take that as a given, as joke at yelling at me while I
2:15:27
was savaging Plant of the Dead. Doctor Who is meant to be fun
2:15:31
and I think this episode is fun. They step out of the TARDIS and
2:15:36
I feel, well look, first, First off, it looks great and I wonder
2:15:40
if we've just come to take it for granted by now.
2:15:42
I think that it's a thing that that chibnall got somehow wrong
2:15:46
with this first season and and it improved in leaps and bounds
2:15:51
after that. I think this has a great look.
2:15:54
All that rain and the mud at the start it it, it creates this,
2:15:59
this Chinese coastline setting in a way that is absolutely
2:16:03
compelling and it's supported by a great score.
2:16:05
And Sega Laconolia is is a is a brilliant composer and he gives
2:16:09
it a sense of location with appropriately chosen
2:16:12
instruments. You know, slightly period
2:16:14
flavour, slightly exotic flavour, but but not in a kind
2:16:17
of patronising way. The Doctor steps out of the
2:16:22
TARDIS in a great costume, you know, for for a change she
2:16:25
actually looks like the Doctor, right.
2:16:27
You know, I'm not a fan of the costume standard costume.
2:16:31
I think it's it's lovely what she's wearing here and the fact
2:16:34
that Yaz is messing around with the the, you know, the dance
2:16:39
pirate gear has all, they've got a lovely kind of vibe between
2:16:42
them. It's it's it feels, particularly
2:16:44
after, you know we had a fun New Year's episode with them.
2:16:47
It just feels like the team has gelled and after all that kind
2:16:49
of ponderous, serious stuff in flux, we're getting to enjoy
2:16:53
time in their in their company. I think the Sea Devils do look
2:16:56
great. Yeah, it's a bit odd when
2:16:58
they're talking, but they don't talk very much.
2:16:59
They never did. The Sea Devils looked rubbish
2:17:01
when they were talking in the Sea Devils.
2:17:03
So you know what they can do is they can move, they can fight.
2:17:07
And what they are is a a physical model that doesn't look
2:17:11
actually like it's got a human being inside it, which which we
2:17:13
know in Doctor Who is a a real rarity.
2:17:16
Nor is it a CGI Sea devil, which I would have had a real problem
2:17:19
with because it wouldn't have dealt with the whole look.
2:17:21
I I I think they come across well.
2:17:25
I think we've got 20 of Doctor Hui things going on.
2:17:30
I think Madam Qing is a great character.
2:17:32
Oh the the image of the Mercker as well underneath the fishing
2:17:35
boat. That's great.
2:17:36
It's really good. And if Akanola is quoting
2:17:39
Godzilla I I would totally believe that it could be a quote
2:17:42
because he he's a clever clever guy and that would be entirely
2:17:45
appropriate and and and a fun nod to that as well.
2:17:50
It's not. I.
2:17:53
Don't know it. I feel it's a bit one note and
2:17:55
there was a point where I thought this score hasn't
2:17:57
changed key all episode. And I feel like the script is a
2:17:59
bit that though there's a bit where they knit back to 1533 and
2:18:02
that feels very Doctor Who. They move around a lot.
2:18:04
There are some good themes in there.
2:18:06
The the theme of lost, the fact that Qing's sons were lost when
2:18:09
they were three and six years old.
2:18:11
There's a bit of time for reflection and it starts of
2:18:13
course with someone losing his father.
2:18:15
So those themes of loss and revenge which tie in to the sea,
2:18:19
Devil's mythology perfectly are, are very strong I think Besides
2:18:24
which, it's got sword fighting, the Doctor gets to swing on a
2:18:28
rope, it does swashbuckling. I feel like it's certainly the
2:18:34
best Doctor Who attempted a pirate story.
2:18:37
I know the bar is very low, but it does it very well.
2:18:40
I think it has a lovely setting. It has a good score, The Doctor
2:18:44
looks great. It has a very small, watchable
2:18:47
ensemble cast, and if it's not the best sea level outing, it's
2:18:50
not the worst either. And if for no other reason that
2:18:54
I want to see Rod's reaction, I'm going to vote it in.
2:18:57
Jesus. Well, I I can't keep silence
2:19:00
after that. James I.
2:19:01
Love you. I didn't think I could love you
2:19:03
more. I love you to bits, but what the
2:19:05
hell have you been smoking that is?
2:19:07
Just put your wine down because clearly it's gone to your head.
2:19:12
What are you talking about? So OK, I shall try and contain
2:19:17
my rage. My first point is what the fuck
2:19:22
is going on? I have no idea what is going on
2:19:25
in this story. So apparently the plot is about
2:19:28
the Sea devils attempting to flip the Earth's geomagnetic
2:19:31
poles and flood the Earth's. Did any of?
2:19:34
Us get that? I think that idea is totally
2:19:37
submerged, like pirate treasure, beneath so many different plot
2:19:41
strands and narratives that go nowhere at all.
2:19:45
Dialogue that's just nonsensical.
2:19:47
There's no clear narrative. It's just completely lost at
2:19:50
sea. I don't know what's going on
2:19:52
here. Is this about a 16th century
2:19:54
pirate and he's lost treasure? Or is it about a real life 19th
2:19:59
century historical pirate queen who's got her own story, but
2:20:02
here it's about her children being kidnapped.
2:20:04
Is that the story? Or is it about a sea monster?
2:20:07
Or is it about a Flying Dutchman?
2:20:09
Or is it about a search for a Mcguffin?
2:20:11
What's going on? I've no idea, and the dialogue
2:20:13
just doesn't help me. Tecna bubble is prevalent
2:20:17
throughout Doc 2, but it's usually used to kind of
2:20:20
punctuate points and we get the general gist of what's going on
2:20:23
underneath. I do not get the gist of what's
2:20:25
going on underneath and when I get dialed, yeah.
2:20:29
It's about the Sea Devils trying to turn the Earth into a
2:20:31
massive. No, I just told you that.
2:20:33
I just told you. That you don't.
2:20:34
Get You don't get it from this. Or do you get it from this
2:20:37
dialogue, Joe, what's that geomagnet graph for?
2:20:40
Are you measuring the current flow?
2:20:42
Is that a current regulator or orbital electron stripping?
2:20:45
And the algae regulates the microclimate.
2:20:47
It's like being back in the mid 80s again, isn't?
2:20:50
It lovely mean I have no idea. And the confusion of plot I
2:20:54
think is mirrored by the direction which is hopeless.
2:20:57
It gives no sense of cohesion or location.
2:21:01
I don't know whether we're on the Flying Dutchman ship or
2:21:04
whether on the Sea Devil base. The both sets are just dark,
2:21:07
They're totally interchangeable. How do characters move from one
2:21:10
place to another? I mean, the TARDIS is swallowed
2:21:13
by the Not Merca, then suddenly it's in the Sea Devil Base.
2:21:16
With no explanation To get away from the Sea Devil ship, the
2:21:20
Doctor fiddles around with some controls, everybody wobbles a
2:21:23
bear and then two seconds later they're swinging from ropes from
2:21:27
a ship in the sky and managed to land on a ship on the ocean.
2:21:31
Then two minutes after that, they move off camera, Jodie
2:21:35
shouts Geronimo. And suddenly they're back on the
2:21:38
pirate ship up in the sea when they were down on the ocean and
2:21:42
they're just walking. How does that even happen?
2:21:44
There's just no logic where how people are moving from one place
2:21:48
to another. It's just totally nonsensical.
2:21:51
And then we end with the worst part of the Timeless Children
2:21:55
comes back again. We're back to Kosh Arms, self
2:21:57
sacrifice. When the pirate captain walks in
2:22:00
and says do not worry, I will die for you.
2:22:02
And Jones says, OK, that's fine, thanks love, we're off by and
2:22:06
just leaves them to die. Great.
2:22:08
And what happens to the nut murk?
2:22:09
Is that still swimming around eating people?
2:22:13
I am reminded of Macbeth. That is a tale told by an idiot,
2:22:18
full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
2:22:21
And that's what I feel about this story.
2:22:22
You. Talking about a day at the
2:22:24
doctor again. Surely that's supposed to be
2:22:27
Heaven sent Rod? Oh, it's that.
2:22:29
It's that too. Sorry, did I say that in the?
2:22:31
Wrong. No, you didn't.
2:22:32
You said the right thing. It's terrible.
2:22:34
It's terrible. I mean the the supporting
2:22:37
character sacrificing their life is.
2:22:39
Awful. Is awful, but particularly bad
2:22:42
here where he dies because no one's got any Gorilla tape, it's
2:22:46
just literally has to hold two cables together.
2:22:50
It's just there to sacred We had that.
2:22:52
There was so much uproar about how poor that was in the
2:22:54
Timeless Children and we just do it again.
2:22:57
The Sea Devils. Oh my God, why do we have Sea
2:23:00
Devils? I agree with you, Michael.
2:23:01
They do not work for me. And that attributes the the
2:23:05
jump. Don't start me on the jump.
2:23:07
Suddenly the fucking Superman. Could you not hear the Mario
2:23:10
noise doing doing? Well here's the I I think this
2:23:13
is another example of an undeveloped idea because the
2:23:15
first time I saw that I thought oh, because there is a thing in
2:23:18
in Chinese, Hong Kong, Asian cinema, you know, wuxia and all
2:23:23
the rest of it, of samurai of empowered characters basically
2:23:27
having sort of semi superheroic supernatural character
2:23:30
abilities. One of which is that often
2:23:32
depicted as having the sort of semi flying ability.
2:23:34
You know, you've seen Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, it's in
2:23:36
it's in that and I thought oh this is interesting, this is,
2:23:39
this is fun. We're going down that route are
2:23:41
we for this? No, it never happens again, so
2:23:44
it does so. Oh no, it was just a misjudge.
2:23:46
It's a hilarious. And so, and to make it, and to
2:23:49
make it even worse, 5 minutes later we show that they're using
2:23:52
Trump's map technology. So why didn't they just use that
2:23:55
rather than that? Because it's.
2:23:56
Ridiculous jump The doctors doesn't attempt to mediate.
2:24:00
It's just all right, you lock and die, we're happy to blow you
2:24:02
up. That's fine.
2:24:04
And that's reinforced by the fact that Dan suddenly becomes a
2:24:06
master swordsman, cuts down a load of Sea Devils, and then
2:24:10
make some Bondian quip about oh, I learned that from me move.
2:24:13
Sorry, that was a liver puddling accent.
2:24:16
I mean, it's just horrendous. It's the worst of season 22 writ
2:24:19
large. And finally, I am going to talk
2:24:22
about the romance at the end. I am totally on board with Yaz
2:24:26
falling in love with the Doctor. Yes, it's a late addition to the
2:24:29
plot because fans told Chris Chidnell this is a good idea and
2:24:32
he thought I'll add that in. But it works and I think Mandip
2:24:35
Gill sells it. I'm not sure what the Doctor's
2:24:38
position or stance is and I don't really get it from from
2:24:42
Jodie's final scene. I don't know whether Jodie
2:24:45
genuinely has scenes for feelings for Yaz, because I'm
2:24:49
not it it doesn't sell or tell me that's what's happening, or I
2:24:53
don't know whether she's just giving other.
2:24:55
It's not me, it's you line and it just feels a bit unsatisfying
2:24:58
and flat. And the fact that that is the
2:25:00
climax of that storyline, because it gets forgotten in
2:25:02
power of the Doctor, it just doesn't end up in a very
2:25:05
satisfactory way. I think it could have been dealt
2:25:07
with far more elegantly and that's a bit of a let down.
2:25:11
But the rest of the episode is just possibly the worst Doctor
2:25:15
story I have ever seen. All in capital letters.
2:25:19
What about Orphan 55? Oh, this is worse than Orphan
2:25:21
55. Hard though that is to imagine.
2:25:24
OK, this actually comes lower. It's just.
2:25:27
I mean, at the end the doctor skims the stone and makes a
2:25:31
wish. I'm wishing it was bloody over
2:25:32
or forgotten. Joe, over to you.
2:25:36
I think it's very sad that you people are expending so much
2:25:40
energy and vile about something as forgettable as this.
2:25:43
Frankly, I feel as if you're wasting your lives.
2:25:46
Although I did ask, you know, to come on and do this, I actually
2:25:50
have three reasons why I don't like this.
2:25:52
The the editing. We know this was edited down and
2:25:55
it doesn't make a lot of sense. There's that bit where they go
2:25:58
into the base at the beginning and then suddenly they've got a
2:26:01
trap for the Sea Devil. And it's like, when did you set
2:26:04
the trap? When did that happen?
2:26:07
So I I don't think that's a fault of the story that, but
2:26:10
they were enforced a smaller time slot, so they had to take
2:26:14
it down and they had to lose stuff.
2:26:16
So the. Trouble is, we've got to judge
2:26:17
what's on screen. That's what the audience.
2:26:19
Are watching. So I do think some of the guest
2:26:21
performances are a little forgettable.
2:26:23
I'm not sure. The woman playing Madam Ching
2:26:26
Ching Xing, I don't think she's particularly memorable and like,
2:26:31
you know, 100 million Steven Moffitt stories switch locations
2:26:35
with alarming frequency throughout this.
2:26:37
So I will get there a Day of the Doctor, but offsetting that, I
2:26:42
think the Doctor and Yasin's are beautiful.
2:26:43
I think the scene with the TARDIS under the water is one of
2:26:47
the most gorgeous scenes of the whole era.
2:26:49
Just the the the TARDIS light lighting up and the fish going
2:26:53
around and the look on Mandy Gill's face when Jodie Whittaker
2:26:57
says not a bad day, am I? And then she starts flying into
2:27:00
some dreadful technobabble about why they're there and you.
2:27:04
The camera stays on Mandip and she's sort of like heartbroken
2:27:07
and hesitant and unsure. It's doing really interesting
2:27:10
things and I think their scenes throughout this are really
2:27:12
great. The Sea Devils, James, you are
2:27:14
right. They look fantastic.
2:27:16
This is that. This is how you do a modern
2:27:18
version of a classic monster. And you're right, they're
2:27:21
manoeuvrable. They they they work in the fight
2:27:24
scenes, which is basically what you need them for.
2:27:26
Although have you seen the production shots of the the
2:27:29
rubber heads all around Jodie Whittaker?
2:27:31
Yeah, yeah, dreadful. I like the fact it's a very
2:27:35
simple premise that the, you know, to just turn the earth
2:27:38
into an ocean, because I don't know what the fuck they were
2:27:40
trying to do in Warriors of the Deep, you know?
2:27:42
But at least I understand what they're trying to do here.
2:27:45
And I just love the trio of 13 Yas and Dan.
2:27:48
I just think they've got brilliant chemistry.
2:27:50
They're really fun to watch and for no other reason that you've
2:27:53
both been so mean. I'm going to put this through I
2:27:57
don't think this is anywhere near the best Doctor Who
2:27:59
episode. I certainly don't think it's
2:28:01
anywhere near the worst. There's so much production value
2:28:04
on the screen. How anyone could call this the
2:28:05
worst Doctor Who story is I. Just did I just.
2:28:09
Did well. It's going for.
2:28:10
Round two, so in your face. I genuinely think that if this
2:28:13
was an episode in Series 2 with Tenant and Piper, it would be
2:28:19
much more highly regarded. I think they could have put that
2:28:21
at the same story and people wouldn't be obsessing over the
2:28:25
the the illogical plot they just became.
2:28:27
Oh, that was a nice looking episode with a great kind of set
2:28:31
of leads with a great dynamic. I mean I would.
2:28:34
I would add that I agree that Rod is wrong.
2:28:36
I don't think it's the I don't mostly mostly through Michael.
2:28:41
I don't think it's the worst doctor story by a long short I I
2:28:44
think if it were in the middle of a series it would just be a
2:28:46
bad episode. But it says it would be
2:28:48
forgettable. It would be one of those ones
2:28:50
like the rebel flesh. Like I'm sure it happened.
2:28:53
I've seen it on episode lists. I know I watched it but I've.
2:28:57
I can't tell you a single thing about it.
2:28:59
I actually think the AS and 13 relationship with Cena's done
2:29:02
really nicely because I think what what what I my reading of
2:29:07
that relationship is Yaz is obviously enough with the Doctor
2:29:09
and maybe this is the first time she's felt that towards another
2:29:12
you know another woman. So she's sort of a bit uncertain
2:29:14
of saying this and what she's feeling herself.
2:29:16
But that equally from the doctor's perspective, her
2:29:18
reaction is I feel a lot of things about Towards You Yaz,
2:29:22
and I love you deeply, but I don't feel that.
2:29:25
And I think the sort of the subtle complexity of of that
2:29:29
relationship and the difficulty of it and the sort of just quite
2:29:32
sad, quiet sadness of two people who really love being together
2:29:37
but not in quite the same way, is actually really nicely done.
2:29:40
I think we've all been there, Michael.
2:29:42
Do you know at some point in our lives we've all been there?
2:29:45
Never be I've had nothing but but widespread acceptance in
2:29:49
every endeavour. I think we ought to move swiftly
2:29:52
on, right. So James, back to you for your
2:29:56
second choice. What shall we do, Day of the
2:29:58
Doctor? Oh, that's.
2:30:02
Think about what this story has, has, has got to do.
2:30:04
You've you're doing an episode of Doctor Who, which has got a
2:30:07
litany of reference to the past. You've got former Doctors.
2:30:11
Even Tom Baker turns out uttering strange and mysterious
2:30:14
pronouncements, a veritable menagerie of monsters converging
2:30:18
on East London all in glorious 3D.
2:30:22
Oh, we can see where you're going with this.
2:30:24
Picked up the wrong notes, haven't I?
2:30:29
Sorry, We're doing day at the doctor, aren't we?
2:30:31
That's right. Yeah.
2:30:32
Queen. Victoria.
2:30:33
Queen Victoria isn't in this one.
2:30:35
I think. Actually, Queen Elizabeth.
2:30:37
Is Queen Elizabeth? Is in his work OK?
2:30:40
But if you think about the perils of anniversary stories,
2:30:44
and I think Dimension in Time is a particular brand of
2:30:47
anniversary story. But.
2:30:49
Absolute classic. But the danger is that you end
2:30:54
up with something so far up its own arse that it isn't going to
2:30:58
appeal to anyone. Because fans will be ranting
2:31:00
about how the continuity doesn't work, or why someone looks a bit
2:31:05
wrong, or the costumes not going to write trousers.
2:31:07
And the general public will just be completely mystified and and
2:31:10
I think we have time and time again seen what badly navigated
2:31:16
anniversary stories look like. And I think you know Big Finish
2:31:19
have have done good ones and they've done less successful
2:31:22
ones. But you know we've we've we've
2:31:24
seen various different approaches and the the the real
2:31:27
kind of danger to my mind is taking it all very, very
2:31:31
seriously making it very kind of serious or tentus Doctor Who.
2:31:35
I think this is a really clever script and a really clever
2:31:39
approach. Moffatt is going OK.
2:31:41
It's going to be about the Doctor and it's going to be
2:31:43
about the Time War, and it's going to be about the most kind
2:31:45
of important day of the Doctor's life and the most important
2:31:48
decision he's going to make so far.
2:31:50
It sounds dreadful, but he very cleverly goes, OK, but I'm going
2:31:54
to do 2 stories and they're going to sort of mirror each
2:31:58
other and influence each other. And one of the stories is going
2:32:01
to be basically a lightweight comic Zygon story as a
2:32:06
counterpart to this momentous time war story, which is sort of
2:32:11
going to run along in the background to the, you know,
2:32:14
it's going to be the effectively the B plot really for for much
2:32:17
of the running time of this episode.
2:32:18
But the two of them are going to converge.
2:32:20
And in a way that he makes it look pretty effortless, but in a
2:32:25
way that the, for example, the power of the Doctor completely
2:32:27
fails to do. He actually does thematically
2:32:30
and dramatically make these two narratives work beautifully with
2:32:35
each other. It's so tightly woven in a way
2:32:39
that Moffett is obviously famous for, but again, in a way that he
2:32:45
doesn't always get right. And I know that there are
2:32:48
differing views about Moffett on this panel, but I think I see
2:32:51
both points. Actually, I I I certainly think
2:32:55
there are. There are moments in the Moffett
2:32:57
era where it gets so convoluted and it doesn't make sense.
2:33:04
It doesn't tie up. This is a really simple but
2:33:07
elegant piece of storytelling, or at least it feels simple.
2:33:10
It's not simple because it the way it all works out.
2:33:14
It does kind of. You could sort of chart all of
2:33:16
the plot points and it is going backwards and forwards.
2:33:19
And I think there's something so elegant about the way this Zygon
2:33:23
story culminates in a moment with Kate Lethbridge Stewart.
2:33:28
Kate Stewart proposing a similar thing to what the Doctor has
2:33:33
been, has has done in the past or in his past.
2:33:37
And I think that had this been done in any of had this story
2:33:43
been told in a different way, it could have been an absolute
2:33:45
bore. But it sparkles.
2:33:47
I think that it's, it looks great.
2:33:50
I think it's got so many brilliant one liners.
2:33:55
I think it uses Tennant and Smith and their strengths
2:33:59
extremely well. I think they spark off each
2:34:01
other in a way that's it's immensely entertaining.
2:34:05
You know, the dialogue is is very light and frothy and
2:34:13
probably best of all, I mean also you've got this thing where
2:34:16
it's trying to please fan, it's trying to going to go well, it's
2:34:19
the 50th anniversary, let's drop in lots of references how Moffat
2:34:21
manages to do that in a way that doesn't actually disturb the
2:34:25
basic narrative. But he drops in things like the
2:34:28
Black Archive, so you get all the pictures of the companions
2:34:31
he drops in little subtle references, even the kind of the
2:34:34
high counsellors in emergency session.
2:34:36
And you know you've redecorated little lines, moments that fans
2:34:41
are going to recognise but which are not.
2:34:43
There's no point where a member of the public is going to be
2:34:44
watching this game. Well, I don't get that.
2:34:46
What sort of reference to there's nothing in this requires
2:34:49
past knowledge of the of the last 50 years of Doctor Who.
2:34:51
It's just little Easter eggs for people who have been obsessively
2:34:55
watching it and cataloguing it. Best of all, at the centre at
2:34:59
all, you've got John Hurt. And I just think we are so, so
2:35:03
lucky to have had John Hurt, an actor of his calibre and an
2:35:08
actor of his depth, take that part and give us a performance
2:35:14
which I think without it it this would veer into the kind of smug
2:35:19
territory. I think without John Hurt there,
2:35:21
Smith and Tennant would become insufferable.
2:35:23
But it's like Moffat's been, I don't know, it's like Moffat's
2:35:28
been listening in on my phone calls or or or or or hacking my
2:35:32
text messages and and going, OK, well, so there's a kind of fan
2:35:36
who finds some of this stuff a little bit problematic.
2:35:39
And in the character of John Hurt, he actually gives a
2:35:41
response to the things about Doctor Who that I've been
2:35:45
finding irritating. So he has, you know, David
2:35:47
Tennant going, Alan Z and John Hurt going, oh, for God's sake,
2:35:51
the fact that he, you know, when they're waving the screwdrivers
2:35:53
around, he goes, they're scientific instruments, not, not
2:35:57
water pistols. About bloody time someone said
2:36:00
it. The fact that he calls David
2:36:02
Tennant Dick Van Dyke, the, you know, his reaction to Timey
2:36:05
wimey a phrase that I never, ever, ever want to hear it
2:36:08
again. And the fact that he said you
2:36:09
have to talk like children and even the kind of the fact that
2:36:13
his response to the kissing is, is there a lot of this in the
2:36:16
future, You know, it's lovely, isn't it?
2:36:19
It's a beautiful celebration and I think it's so refreshing and
2:36:28
so enjoyable. It's even after 10 years, it's
2:36:31
one that you can go back to and it sort of achieves what the
2:36:33
five doctors achieved for the for the 20th, but in a
2:36:37
completely different way. And I I love it.
2:36:39
So it's in for me. Fantastic.
2:36:41
Let's go to the comments, Kaomi Nova says.
2:36:44
Not a good episode up until it drops the Zygon plot.
2:36:48
It's fun enough, but everything after that undermines the
2:36:50
revival leading up to up to that point.
2:36:53
Jack Quayer says if The Five Doctors celebrates what we love
2:36:56
about Doctor Who, then the Day of the Doctor celebrates why The
2:36:59
possibility for love, forgiveness, being kind to
2:37:02
yourself and others. Mark says a mixed bag of time.
2:37:05
War stuff is great. Saigon stuff.
2:37:07
Less so weird. They didn't get Pete Collins,
2:37:09
Sylvester and Paul to record new dialogue for The End.
2:37:13
Daniel Rawnsley Delightfully some first expectations of the
2:37:16
Time War dirge by leapfrogging through past present future of
2:37:19
Who and playing it all off like a naughty high spirited lark.
2:37:23
Darren Lip, Randall said. Way too overrated.
2:37:25
John, who was a great actor, but I don't buy him as the Doctor.
2:37:28
Nick Huron is a stunning director, but I think the 3D
2:37:31
gimmick stymied him. Oh watch out folks.
2:37:34
James, HI. Doubt we'll ever know the real
2:37:36
behind the scenes stuff. This feels cobbled together with
2:37:39
pure humor. A plot from the 8th Doctor
2:37:41
Avengers. What's wrong with that?
2:37:43
And the Zygons looking more like men in foam rubber suits than
2:37:46
ever. Bin.
2:37:48
Then burn the bin for that group shot.
2:37:51
Crush, Dummy says, marvellous and celebratory, but falls apart
2:37:54
if you pick at it the time. War is duller than it should be,
2:37:57
and saving Gallifrey was a huge misstep.
2:37:59
But God, I loved it at the time. Jolo Allen, The pinnacle of new
2:38:03
who celebrates the show and gives us all the doctors at the
2:38:05
end. I teared up when they appeared.
2:38:07
Never get tired of watching it. Big Orange, Michael said.
2:38:10
Part of the joy was the collective sharing of this with
2:38:13
fans in a pack theatre. Of course, having a great script
2:38:16
help too. RTD was the right person to
2:38:18
bring the show back. Moffett was the right person to
2:38:20
craft the anniversary special. On Binsalia, the quip about the
2:38:24
rabbit and Tom Baker aside, this is rubbish.
2:38:27
What could have been a great celebration becomes an unfunny,
2:38:30
overlong Comic Relief sketch. Moffett applies his Everybody
2:38:33
lives bullshit for the Time War. David Gatsby Pratt says.
2:38:36
I've tried to be a good Doctor Who fan and hate this, but I
2:38:39
can't. Yes, there are bits that don't
2:38:41
work and the Zygons are a bit superfluous, but it's all done
2:38:44
with such confidence and style it's almost impossible not to be
2:38:48
won over. Well, we'll see when we get to
2:38:50
Joe Ford in a minute, David. Paul Quinn says not sure the two
2:38:54
plots work together, but once the focus settles on the moment
2:38:57
and how to avoid using it, this becomes a big, gorgeous
2:39:00
celebration of new who. John Hurt may not know what's
2:39:03
going on, and maybe it should have been McGann, but it's John
2:39:07
Bloody Hurt. Absolute who, said Stella.
2:39:10
Going for a three doctor style is good and I love all the multi
2:39:13
doctor interactions. It sets up a brighter future
2:39:16
while dealing with and paying off the time war.
2:39:19
Jason Thompson I just love take it as a celebration and run with
2:39:23
it and you know you know I really think you might remains
2:39:27
one of the biggest jaw hits the floor moments in all of who the
2:39:30
gasp in the cinema I watched it was immense.
2:39:34
Tom Newsom says took a bit of adjusting to it with it's
2:39:36
rewriting of the Doctor's history, but is genuinely really
2:39:39
strong and manages to get the fun moments into.
2:39:42
Sill and Reece mixed bag last 20 minutes are punch the air.
2:39:45
Brilliant Time War stuff looks great.
2:39:47
The Zygons look crap, as does most of the stuff set in the
2:39:50
past. Revolving the Time War with a
2:39:52
Big Bang is the worst scripting choice Moffett ever made.
2:39:58
Andy Parkinson says exactly what specials are supposed to be a
2:40:01
loving look at the show's history, and bloody good fun to
2:40:03
boot. Gareth Bowley Let's stick in a
2:40:06
Doctor Who's Not a Doctor to celebrate the show's
2:40:08
anniversary. The only thing this show got
2:40:10
right was the phrase no more. Oops.
2:40:14
Paul Smyce. A superb story to celebrate 50
2:40:16
years. Matt Smith at his best.
2:40:18
John, who was inspired casting, seeing the Time War on screen
2:40:21
and depicted so well, was wonderful to see.
2:40:24
Just when it can't get any better, Tom Baker turns up
2:40:27
sublime. Snips the perfect 50th
2:40:30
anniversary special that never fails to bring a smile to my
2:40:32
face that just makes me feel good.
2:40:35
And you can't argue with that, Michael.
2:40:38
Are you sharing the love for Day of the Doctor?
2:40:41
I am absolutely sharing the love.
2:40:44
I mean let's let's start with with John Hurt.
2:40:47
The comment there that he may not know what's going on, I
2:40:50
think is supremely unfair. I think new who has had some
2:40:55
fantastic, wonderful guest actors over years and some big
2:41:00
names. But you know many people have
2:41:02
got different wonderful performances.
2:41:03
But I don't think we've had anyone who has walked in, had so
2:41:06
much asked of them in the role and acquitted themselves so
2:41:10
well, so perfectly. The little moments that he
2:41:14
absolutely gets that bit in the cell where he says the way you
2:41:17
two look at me, you know you can hear that that's the Steven
2:41:20
Moffat line. But he he delivers it with with
2:41:24
a freshness, with his own interpretation, with a depth of
2:41:26
the understanding of this character.
2:41:28
Because take a step back for a minute, this whole conceit of a
2:41:30
Doctor that we've never heard before, we've never heard of
2:41:32
before, that's suddenly not there.
2:41:34
We know the behind the scenes thing.
2:41:36
It was meant to be Christopher Eccleston, and they couldn't get
2:41:38
Christopher Eccleston. And so it had to be rewritten
2:41:40
with this idea of having a new Doctor.
2:41:43
If the. Person filling those shoes
2:41:45
wasn't fantastic from the moment they're on brilliant.
2:41:49
That entire conceit would be, would be open and blatant as a
2:41:53
conceit and it wouldn't work. The whole thing would clap.
2:41:57
Everybody go. Where's Christopher Eccleston?
2:41:59
But you never for a moment ask that there is a weight of an
2:42:03
entire war behind this man. And I don't think you doubt that
2:42:06
because it, and it's done with such subtlety and such grace all
2:42:10
the way through in the way he carries himself, in the way that
2:42:13
he opens the door to the barn and takes a look in you.
2:42:17
You know, this is a place even before we went back there, that
2:42:20
means something to him. He's one of the finest actors of
2:42:24
his generation. You know, this is a proper
2:42:26
legend of cinema and stage. And we got him playing Doctor
2:42:30
Who and, you know, fair play to Stephen Moffett for going, oh,
2:42:33
do you know, or F off. I'm going to do it for one
2:42:35
episode. We're going to have it.
2:42:36
We're going to have the best person ever do this, even before
2:42:39
we got back for the big. I think I was more surprised
2:42:41
when he came back to do 4 Big Finish box sets that I was when
2:42:43
he was in it. John Hurt saying Steven Moffett
2:42:47
lines. I can understand John Hurt
2:42:49
saying Nicholas Briggs lines. I mean, that's just madness.
2:42:54
I think the conceit that for the biggest Doctor Who story ever we
2:42:59
have the Doctor saves himself is a wonderful wonderful little
2:43:04
idea. I I watched it in the cinema as
2:43:05
well and it did not feel out of place on that screen at all.
2:43:08
It never felt like watching watching your T watching your TV
2:43:11
programme on too big a place It feel that the audience reaction
2:43:14
was was amazing. The first appearance of David
2:43:17
Tennant, which actually was in the bit explaining how to use
2:43:19
3D, actually use the 3D glasses at the start.
2:43:21
Nevertheless got a got a huge a huge cheer as did this follow
2:43:26
up. But the the, the Noosa, All 13
2:43:31
amazing stuff and the collective.
2:43:33
Ints. Exactly.
2:43:35
And the when when they said do I really think you might I'm going
2:43:38
to do the line as well. We're all going to the the
2:43:41
collective intake of breath was amazing.
2:43:43
Although my favorite story was I think it's Mark Gatiss who who
2:43:46
told tell a story about watching it at the BFI and apparently
2:43:49
behind who just went Oh no I can't take anymore but that
2:43:54
fits. It is wonderful.
2:43:58
But the other thing is as well is that it's when you start
2:44:01
pulling apart the tiny wyminess of it.
2:44:03
Sorry James, it is. It is quite complex.
2:44:08
It is very Steven Moffett. There's a lot of going back and
2:44:10
forth. I think it was only took me many
2:44:12
times to realise that the Fez is going around to the time loop
2:44:15
which I missed for ages and yet everyone could follow it.
2:44:19
I saw it with my mum and my sister who they both watched
2:44:23
Doctor Who but then nothing like fans they don't watch it.
2:44:25
I think it was only and they had no problem with it at all.
2:44:27
My her sister's only concern was that they didn't explain what
2:44:30
happened to the Zygons. She didn't watch the Zygons
2:44:32
invasion when it came up, even though I encouraged the two.
2:44:36
So I, I, I, you know, I I think that complexity delivered and
2:44:41
explained so well is is is a massive achievement.
2:44:45
And I think as fans we're in danger of losing.
2:44:49
Before I hand up to Joe, I'll say that as fans, we're in
2:44:51
danger of losing our perspective on what a mighty achievement
2:44:54
this episode is. I haven't said a word yet.
2:44:59
Oh, but we know, Joe. It's over to.
2:45:01
You. It's.
2:45:01
Over to you, nothing. Come on, Joe, go for it.
2:45:05
Oh, is it me? Yeah.
2:45:07
OK, well, I want to listen to things I don't like about this
2:45:09
story. I don't like the Time War, which
2:45:11
is actually very boring indeed. We were promised the army of the
2:45:15
Nightmare child, the armies that never were and all these very
2:45:18
exciting things, and it just turns out to be Pew Pew, Pew,
2:45:21
Star Wars, Daleks versus Time War and a lot of shooting going
2:45:24
on. And that's a bit boring.
2:45:26
Can I interject? Just to say I totally agree with
2:45:29
your point, but as a fan of Dalek's Invasion of Earth 2150
2:45:36
AD, those scenes really work for me and it's something.
2:45:39
Gorgeous. We don't.
2:45:40
Get We've not really had a new Who, which is just Daleks
2:45:44
trundling through streets slaughtering people.
2:45:46
Yeah, it's not the Time War as we imagined it, but I I.
2:45:50
Afraid. Tedious.
2:45:51
I don't think it's tedious. I think it's, I think they're
2:45:53
really nicely filmed and I I think.
2:45:55
I just feel like you could have done something more creative
2:45:58
overlapping time. I don't know, just something a
2:46:00
bit more creative than Pew Pew Pew.
2:46:03
Something a bit more tiny wine. Maybe.
2:46:06
Something a bit more gravity maverty?
2:46:10
Yes, yes, Let's use that phrase more often.
2:46:14
I I I would say I don't mind how it appears here, but it's what I
2:46:19
object to. The depiction of the Time War
2:46:20
here is not his depiction in the episode, which I agree with
2:46:23
James, is. I just love the look of it.
2:46:26
What I object to is it? Looks cinematic.
2:46:28
And when Russell T Davis wrote his short story Doctor Who and
2:46:31
the Time War, his his depiction of the end of the Time War was
2:46:34
gravity surrounds. It was gravity, Gravity, Mavity
2:46:38
and Malifray surrounded by fleets of Dalek saucers.
2:46:42
What I object to is the license it gave Big Finish to do endless
2:46:46
audios that are just World War 2 movies.
2:46:48
And dialects in. I mean this is that's the most
2:46:52
heinous crime that Day of the Doctor commits is those Time War
2:46:54
sets that come afterwards which take this as its blueprint.
2:46:58
So let's move on from that. Gallifrey is back at the end of
2:47:00
this story and that is just the most hideous ending this story
2:47:04
could possibly have because you know Gallifrey gave us arc of
2:47:06
Infinity and the invasion of time and have it and would go on
2:47:10
to give us hell bent. So you know that's that was not
2:47:14
a good call. A lot of people were like
2:47:16
cheering. Yeah.
2:47:17
Gallifrey's back. Do you remember how fucking
2:47:19
boring that planet is? Jesus Christ, he got rid of it
2:47:23
for a reason and it does sort of spoil that sort of redemption
2:47:27
arc in the first series as well, that that ending, which I don't
2:47:31
really like anyway, let's move on.
2:47:34
I don't like Atkins and is missing 10 years the fellow that
2:47:37
works for UNIT. There's suddenly we're doing
2:47:39
these sort of dark, weird things with UNIT that I don't like.
2:47:42
Kate Leftbridge, Stewart decides, do you know what the
2:47:44
right solution to this is? To drop a nuclear bomb on
2:47:48
London. That's how we're going to solve
2:47:49
this. Like, when did UNIT ever become
2:47:51
that? And we go on into the Zygon
2:47:53
invasion inversion with this really sort of twisted unit that
2:47:56
I don't like to. It's more torture than it is
2:47:58
UNIT. I don't like the comedy Zygons.
2:48:01
I don't think they look great, and I don't think her from
2:48:03
Gavin. Gavin Stacey can handle Steven
2:48:05
Moffat's dialogue, but I don't think a lot of those scenes land
2:48:10
every Dalek ship fired on every other Dalek ship when Gallifrey
2:48:13
appears. Really.
2:48:15
That's how we're ending the Time War.
2:48:17
And worked for Blake. Seven they were.
2:48:19
All there at the same time, this huge universe spanning war.
2:48:24
I mean, it's bullshit isn't it? Peace.
2:48:27
In our time somebody says we cut to the world spinning.
2:48:30
What for? The doctors soul.
2:48:32
Global conflict as a no. It's just, it's just vamping.
2:48:37
And I don't. Do you know what?
2:48:38
I don't like Tom Baker saying that he hated every single
2:48:41
second of his shoe and that last thing that really takes away
2:48:44
from me because he he's not quiet about the fact that he
2:48:48
didn't think he was treated very well.
2:48:49
There wasn't a lot of, you know, Tom Baker.
2:48:53
He didn't enjoy the time. But we are reviewing the story
2:48:56
and not the production of the story.
2:48:59
Well, I mean, we've all talked about the production throughout
2:49:01
this episode of a lot of these episodes.
2:49:03
Yeah, but I think what we have to judge what made on screen, I
2:49:06
hadn't actually heard that about Tom Bake's experience.
2:49:08
Obviously, now that you've told me that, I have to revise my
2:49:10
opinion and it's out. I do think as well what you said
2:49:14
about the subtleties of celebrating Classic Who.
2:49:17
This is far more a celebration of New Who than it is Classic
2:49:19
Who. There's a few sort of bones
2:49:21
thrown into the classic where a power of the Doctor actually
2:49:23
went balls to the walls and just threw old companions and all
2:49:26
sorts at you, and lots of references.
2:49:29
This is sort of a jerk off to the new series rather than the
2:49:32
classic series. I don't know if that's the
2:49:35
question well. We got the 5:00-ish Doctor
2:49:37
reboot. I I feel like it could.
2:49:39
I I don't know. I think that's a sensible
2:49:41
choice. As as someone who's much more
2:49:44
classic series oriented, the new who, it just seemed like the
2:49:49
the, the freshest approach that you know to be dragged down by
2:49:53
oh you know, more nods to the past would have, would have,
2:49:56
would have made for a really leaden piece of television.
2:49:59
No, we was all very excited in Power of the Doctor.
2:50:02
We were not sure how many of the general public were sitting
2:50:06
there going, yes, Sophie Aldrid. Never mind those.
2:50:09
Oh well, yeah, good point. However, of course I'm going to
2:50:14
put this through, I think Dave the Doctor did the one thing
2:50:18
that no other Doctor Who story has ever done, ever.
2:50:22
And that is, please, about 99.9% of the Doctor Who fandom
2:50:27
watching. And given the weight of
2:50:29
expectation that this had going at it, the fact that we came out
2:50:34
of this and it topped that pole in the next DWN and it was being
2:50:38
lauded. And of course there's great
2:50:40
stuff to it. You've said it all.
2:50:41
John Hurt, Matt Smith and David Tennant together is gorgeous.
2:50:46
Clara. Actually, I think my favorite
2:50:49
Clara moment ever is in this episode and it's in one of my
2:50:52
favourite news who scenes ever. And that is where they're all in
2:50:55
that cell together. And the the cleverness of, you
2:50:59
know, using the free regenerations to get out of
2:51:02
that. And then the gag of her coming
2:51:04
in the door and going the door was unlocked.
2:51:06
I mean, and that's even better in the book.
2:51:08
If you read the book, I I actually think the book works
2:51:11
better because you've got the curator narrating the book and
2:51:16
helping you get from place to place.
2:51:18
And it's it's just a very smart reading of an already smart
2:51:21
story. It's really, really good.
2:51:23
There's lots of things I don't like about it, but there's
2:51:25
always lots of things I don't like about supermarket stories.
2:51:28
It did what it set out to do and it did it with style, so it's
2:51:32
going through. OK, so it's going through Oh.
2:51:36
Don't even pretend. I am strangely ambivalent about
2:51:40
this story. I genuinely am.
2:51:42
I'm sorry. I'm getting some shock looks,
2:51:44
but I laugh. I enjoy it.
2:51:47
There are some great lines. There's a lot to love about it.
2:51:50
Obviously there's two big punch the air moments.
2:51:53
There's Capaldi turning up, which obviously works.
2:51:55
The time, in retrospect, probably doesn't work quite so
2:51:58
well because obviously we were all whooping because we hadn't
2:52:01
seen any of Capaldi at that stage.
2:52:03
So obviously it's strong on transmission.
2:52:05
Later on the impacts lessened Tom Baker.
2:52:08
The impact of him will never be diminished or lessened as
2:52:12
fantastic scene come on. Everyone's.
2:52:14
Done here. No, I'm refusing to do it.
2:52:16
I'm refusing to do it. I'm just ambivalent about it.
2:52:22
It just leaves me a little bit cold.
2:52:24
So I'm not going to put it through, I'm not going to put it
2:52:28
through. And I've picked 3 reasons why I
2:52:31
don't particularly like it because I had to pick three
2:52:34
reasons, so I had to come up with it.
2:52:35
I've got to stand by my assertions.
2:52:39
So we've got two plots. As everybody said, we've got the
2:52:41
bit about the moment. We've got the Zygon plot and
2:52:43
Zygon split between Elizabeth in England and modern day England.
2:52:46
I have a lot of problem with the Elizabethan England stuff.
2:52:49
I don't think it particularly works.
2:52:52
Joe, like you, I don't think Joanna Page has got the acting
2:52:55
chops to pull it off, and it's just a really odd, lightweight
2:52:58
bit of casting. When you've cast John Hurt in
2:53:00
your production, you then cast her off Gavin and Stacey.
2:53:04
It just feels really, I mean, I'm not asking to.
2:53:06
Blame the Doctor. It's a nutshell.
2:53:08
Though, well, I will. Prestige casting as it's the
2:53:11
most soap. So odd.
2:53:13
After you've cast John Hurt, you may only be able to afford to
2:53:16
cast her off Kevin. 'S.
2:53:19
Fairpoint, and I know the doctor's only pretending to
2:53:22
propose to quit the queen to pull the Saigon out of hiding,
2:53:25
but there's still a bit of kind of uncomfortable, predatory,
2:53:29
sexualised vibe there, which is reminding me far too much of the
2:53:32
girl in the fireplace to sit overly comfortably with me.
2:53:35
The Saigon's in the British countryside look really rubbery.
2:53:39
It looks like a BBV video at that stage.
2:53:43
Then we go to the Zygons in the modern day and.
2:53:46
We meant to think you're misremembering what the BBV
2:53:49
videos were like that. The better you mean?
2:53:53
Mostly just ask Dylan Rees what he thinks.
2:53:56
He loves her. In the modern day, we believe
2:54:00
that the moment has brought the War Doctor to the event so that
2:54:02
we can see the mistake made by Kate in sacrificing London to
2:54:06
save the world. So it's all a little bit
2:54:07
Christmas currently again, you know, we're kind of going there
2:54:10
again. But my problem is, and everyone
2:54:13
misses this point, I'm going to get irate here and runs a little
2:54:15
bit when we go back to the barn after that, the Doctor, John
2:54:20
Hurt Doctor is still adamant that he wants to destroy Calla
2:54:23
Frey. He's ready to push that button.
2:54:25
He hasn't actually learnt anything.
2:54:27
So seeing that whole set up James, he was saying oh, you
2:54:30
know, he's now realised the two plots counterpart pose each
2:54:33
other but they actually don't because he's ready to push the
2:54:35
button. It's only then when Smith and
2:54:37
Tennant appear. Matt Smith's Doctor rationalises
2:54:41
that what they can do is that Gallifrey can be hidden in a
2:54:43
picture like the Zygons. So actually they're missing the
2:54:46
whole point that, you know, not killing 2.4 billion children
2:54:50
might not necessarily be the best idea.
2:54:53
They've kind of forgotten that and they just go for the easy
2:54:55
bit of, oh, we can hide Gallifrey and they forget the
2:54:58
whole point of them going there to see the parallels.
2:55:01
It's just a very odd decision. It's like, you know, if to use
2:55:04
the Christmas Carol analogy, which is basically what it's
2:55:07
doing. It's like showing Scrooge's
2:55:09
miserable future and coming back to the present and the only
2:55:12
thing he's learnt that, oh, my front door looks a nicer colour
2:55:15
in the future and can't forget to the whole point of why he's
2:55:17
there. It's just a very, very odd beat.
2:55:20
So that was, that's one reason my second one is the War Doctor.
2:55:25
I have a slight problem with believing the Doctor.
2:55:28
He's capable of doing the most terrible things that he talks
2:55:31
about. I know we're going to come to
2:55:32
Time Lord Victoria shortly, but that is dealt with quite swiftly
2:55:35
and he realises pretty quickly he can't go all valley out and
2:55:38
evil we're supposed to. How bad can the Doctor be before
2:55:43
we Start Stop identifying with him?
2:55:45
And we talked about Big Finish. I know a couple of you mentioned
2:55:48
Big Finish already. They have the same problem in
2:55:50
all these War Doctor and the War Doctor begins.
2:55:53
He never does. Any war doctor?
2:55:54
Is a teenager. He doesn't.
2:55:56
He shows compassion, he saves people and then he just growls
2:55:59
at the end. Don't call me the doctor.
2:56:01
You've just been the fucking doctor for the last hour.
2:56:03
Stop telling us that. So I don't think it's my idea
2:56:05
that. Hopefully works because it's
2:56:07
John, Kurt, John Hurt. He's like my favorite cuddly
2:56:09
uncle. You know, he's so yes.
2:56:11
Exactly. Isn't that just to?
2:56:14
I think you're right, and I think that this script takes a
2:56:17
bizarrely light approach to genocide.
2:56:22
Isn't the dilemma meant to be that the Doctor is choosing
2:56:26
between the universe and his own people?
2:56:29
And in order to save the universe from this war that is
2:56:33
consuming everything, he takes the awful decision to destroy
2:56:38
the the warring parties. It absolutely it is.
2:56:42
And that's, I think that's the problem with losing Eccleston
2:56:45
from this special because if it had been Eccleston doing that,
2:56:49
that moment of indecision would have been defined just down to
2:56:54
that one moment. Whereas when we're given a whole
2:56:57
lifetime of the War Doctor and God knows, Big Finish of giving
2:57:00
us the child War Doctor, the teenager War Doctor, the
2:57:04
middle-aged waldocks we have every age.
2:57:07
He's constantly revisiting this. How bad can I get?
2:57:11
You're right. If it was just distilled down to
2:57:13
that one moment, that one decision, it would work.
2:57:16
The fact we have a whole new incarnation who's committing
2:57:19
genocide, we're led to believe on our on a daily basis without
2:57:22
any compunction. That's where it kind of falls
2:57:25
flat. So I think there's a bit of a
2:57:26
problem with the with the. Character.
2:57:28
He gets up every day and thinks, well, what genocide can I commit
2:57:31
today? Maybe I'm not getting that
2:57:33
reading and I sort of feel like the again, it's why it's seems
2:57:37
to me sensible. The script does take a a a
2:57:39
fairly kind of light approach to storytelling, and so we don't
2:57:43
dwell on that. Absolutely.
2:57:45
Unfortunately it has been mind to death in expanding media.
2:57:49
Well, yes, I know it's not the fault, it's the fault.
2:57:51
No, no, no, no, no. But it gives us the opportunity
2:57:55
for that and I think that's it just doesn't sit overly
2:57:58
comfortably for me. OK, but you can always listen to
2:58:00
the Lady Christina audios to take that taste out of your
2:58:03
mouth. And finally, is this a
2:58:06
celebration of 50 years, Joe, I think you've touched on it.
2:58:09
You know, apart from a few very badly photoshopped pictures of
2:58:11
old companions next to each other on the black archives
2:58:14
walls, we don't really get much from 50 years.
2:58:17
We've got some awful heart and impersonator talking through on
2:58:21
his TARDIS, which is just hideous.
2:58:23
But yeah, it is a celebration and you who not the whole 50
2:58:27
years which we were led to believe, so the.
2:58:28
Book does it better again, because the book has all the
2:58:31
doctors in various stages at the climax of the book, all doing,
2:58:35
saving kids, doing different things.
2:58:37
It's really great, I think if he could have done, if he adds like
2:58:40
Mickey Mouse, money even. Well, even Mickey.
2:58:42
I mean, a few of the actors were unavailably dead at the time,
2:58:47
so. That does hinder your
2:58:50
productions. But you can use AI.
2:58:51
Have you not seen those fantastic recreations about the
2:58:54
master plan? I mean it's it's seamless,
2:58:56
seamless, I tell you so now. The final shot of the day, the
2:59:00
doctor tells us what we could have had, and I think it's just
2:59:03
as well that we didn't. Yeah, Christopher Arkelson is
2:59:06
very podgy behind when you see him from.
2:59:09
I can't admit, I know, you're going to fit his heresy, but
2:59:11
that that approach in Power of the Doctor, that is just having
2:59:14
them old on the screen as manifestations of those.
2:59:18
But you know what? You you you make allowances.
2:59:21
And that's kind of what we get with the curator, isn't it?
2:59:23
We get, you know, we get an older doctor.
2:59:25
So I'm not going to put it through.
2:59:27
I'm not saying it's terrible, it's heinous.
2:59:30
But I just think there are too many flaws with it.
2:59:32
And if we've got to throw things out, which we do, as is the
2:59:35
point of this podcast, I'm putting that out you.
2:59:38
Shocked me at least once per episode.
2:59:40
I tried to do my best right so, but it is going through so.
2:59:44
So far we've only chucked out Planet of the Dead.
2:59:47
Oh dear God, guys. Yeah, I promise you'll go.
2:59:49
The deadlift that was going through.
2:59:51
Yeah, because me and James put it through I.
2:59:54
Bet you weren't expecting that. These magstones.
2:59:56
Put it through once was a podcast.
2:59:58
I'll tell you this. Oh please.
3:00:00
We've still got two stories. And so it's my turn first, isn't
3:00:05
it? Unless you want to go first,
3:00:06
Joe. No, no, off you go.
3:00:07
OK, I am going to go for Ziggy Grill and I think the giggle is
3:00:14
bloody marvellous. And here are three reasons I'll
3:00:16
try to be a bit brief because we are pushing it for time
3:00:19
somewhat. So my first reason for watching
3:00:22
the giggle through is I think this is possibly one of the most
3:00:26
joyous episodes of Doctor Who that there has ever been.
3:00:30
To start with, we get the unexpected, or maybe not
3:00:33
unexpected. We've seen the spoilers return
3:00:35
of Mel. I love Mel.
3:00:37
I love Bonnie Langford. Welcome back to Doctor Who.
3:00:41
Yes, there is some sadness to Mel that she's lost her family,
3:00:44
but there's no one going angst. She's just totally full of joy
3:00:49
to see the Doctor. He's full of joy to see her.
3:00:51
They stand by each other's side and it's glorious.
3:00:56
Then we get the toy maker. Yes, I know there's some
3:00:58
darkness and we'll come to that in a minute.
3:00:59
But Neil Patrick Harris absolutely turns up the comedy I
3:01:02
love. So Cod drum and accent.
3:01:05
And he's following the script as given by Russell.
3:01:08
Or the splishy, splashy. Love it.
3:01:10
Hilarious. Got to specifically point out,
3:01:12
Spice Up Your life because it's a wonderful moment.
3:01:16
Talking of joy, the bye generation, I think, Joe, you
3:01:19
touched on it earlier. We've had lots of torturous
3:01:22
regenerations up to the stage in the modern era.
3:01:24
We started shifting that a bit with Jodie.
3:01:27
Obviously that's slightly tainted because of her parting
3:01:29
with Yaz. But here, for once, there's no
3:01:33
pain, there's no torment. We've got two doctors embracing
3:01:36
and welcoming each other. There's no silly one upmanship,
3:01:40
There's just love and it's pure joy to defeat the toy maker by a
3:01:44
gamer catch. I wasn't necessarily sold on
3:01:46
that on 1st watch. Now you know it's.
3:01:49
I love it. It's seeded early in the energy.
3:01:51
It's shot with pace and energy. Watching David Tannen and
3:01:54
shooting in his pants taking down the toy maker, I just smile
3:01:58
at the audacity and the outrageousness of it.
3:02:01
I think it's wonderful. And then at the end we get the
3:02:03
14th doctor, finding a place with a new family where they can
3:02:06
take care of each other. Joy and most joyous of all,
3:02:10
we've got our new Doctor, whether he's slamming out a new
3:02:13
TARDIS, and that's not a euphemism.
3:02:16
You bring the positive energy. I think shooty absolutely shines
3:02:22
and makes me very, very excited and happy for the future, so,
3:02:25
and it's a game of pure joy. My second reason is the
3:02:31
surrealism. Celestial toy maker hinted at
3:02:34
surrealism that gave us nursery games.
3:02:36
The mind robber, which Joe knows I'm not a massive fan of, also
3:02:40
hinted at surrealism that gave us comic book jokes and fucking
3:02:45
Rapunzel. So no, this gives us oh
3:02:49
terrible. This gives us a glorious slice
3:02:52
of surrealism in the middle of an earth based military story.
3:02:56
Throws up some brilliant ideas and images.
3:02:58
Stookie family that Donna has to fight.
3:03:01
Absolutely wonderful, I realised.
3:03:02
So superbly, really scary. And with the stooky babies
3:03:06
coming down from the ceiling like spiders towards her.
3:03:09
The Doctor encountering 2 life sized marionettes and looking up
3:03:12
and seeing the toy maker towering over and pulling the
3:03:14
strings. It's like comic book come to
3:03:16
life and the puppet show showing Donna the tragedies that the
3:03:20
Doctors face with the death of his companions and the flux.
3:03:23
It just looks glorious. It's nuts.
3:03:26
It's surreal. I love it.
3:03:28
Love it to death. And the third reason I've just
3:03:31
written down Tickle my fan nuts. I just think there is so much.
3:03:37
Sorry James, I've just shocked you.
3:03:39
Continuity can be a curse and we've done season 22 already.
3:03:43
There's so many little. I think people were talking
3:03:44
about it before with with David the Doctor.
3:03:46
James, you were talking about how it's subtly woven in lots of
3:03:49
references without kind of negating the the needs of the
3:03:53
general audience. I think we get that in spades
3:03:55
here. So Mel talks about travelling
3:03:58
with Sublime glitz. She gives us a lovely story of
3:04:01
of, you know, her back story completionism, which, OK, screws
3:04:04
up the Big Finish timeline, but hey, that's the way it is.
3:04:08
We get those lovely colourised clips of Harmel and Michael
3:04:11
Goff. Again, doesn't destroy anything
3:04:14
for the for the audience that own the casual viewer.
3:04:17
But it, you know, it's an absolute privilege for us and it
3:04:19
tells the casual viewer these these people have met before.
3:04:23
We get references to Lagopolis, to Mavic Chand the Guardians to
3:04:27
add Rick. We even hear Anthony Ainley
3:04:30
chuckling when the golden tooth gets picked up at the end.
3:04:33
And I think there's a bit of Michelle Gomez and John Simmons,
3:04:36
Sasha Duan in there as well. And even Murray Gold is joining
3:04:40
him with the with the continuity, there's lots of
3:04:42
little subtle nods to his his previous theme.
3:04:45
So we hear a little bit of the unit theme, we hear bits of the
3:04:48
10th Doctor theme when tenants in shooting starters.
3:04:51
So there's so much continuity that pleases May, pleases the
3:04:54
Anoraks but doesn't overblow the story.
3:04:57
So I think this is glorious and I'm putting it through.
3:05:02
Gentlemen, should we go to the listener comments?
3:05:05
Yeah, Fraser Gregory says The first act is all set up for the
3:05:08
new series and a potential unit spin off.
3:05:10
What the fuck is a blinks, while the final act sadly fumbles
3:05:13
Shooty's introduction. But the middle act is pure
3:05:16
magic. It's creepy, funny, full of new
3:05:17
ideas but with nods to the past to keep nerds like me happy.
3:05:21
The central idea that the Toy Maker is going to destroy
3:05:23
humanity by turning everyone into Ian Levine doesn't stop
3:05:27
making me laugh. One I can watch over and over
3:05:30
again. Well, since there is little deal
3:05:33
and Reese oh, it's a terrible facing some awful effects.
3:05:41
My generation is OK, the toy maker stuff is well handled,
3:05:44
Can't decide if Catch is a brilliant resolution or a
3:05:47
dreadful 1. Neil Patrick Harris is superb as
3:05:50
our tenants and takes and the horror elements work, but could
3:05:53
do without so much being set in unit HQ.
3:05:55
Where's the scale and ambition? Just watch the fucking episode,
3:05:59
Dylan. Jeez.
3:06:01
It's there on the telly, yeah. It is on the screen.
3:06:06
Then we had young Jean and Salia.
3:06:08
These could have been weird and wonderful.
3:06:10
Instead, it's mundane and cringe inducing.
3:06:12
The Spice Girls run fashionable in 1998, never mind 2023.
3:06:16
Gatra has a great screen presence, but it's wasted with
3:06:19
the lines that make his doctor retired RTD.
3:06:21
Hey, babes cliche. Martin Parsons A mess.
3:06:26
Too much going on, yet also not enough flashy shite instead of
3:06:30
plot. Neil Patrick Harris is just
3:06:32
annoying. Nice to see Mel, but what she
3:06:34
needed by generation was silly. I like that unit.
3:06:37
Have a ridiculous tower. Stephen Rhodes The scene
3:06:40
starting with the marionettes of Amy, Clara, Bill and The Flux
3:06:43
and ending with I'm Already Running is one of my favourites
3:06:46
in all of Who I Made A Jigsaw of Your Past is a genius way to
3:06:51
explain all contradictions. Snips Another mixed bag.
3:06:55
The first two acts are great, but the third is a poor
3:06:58
resolution. Daniel Knight says great fun and
3:07:01
Neil Patrick Harris is superb, but it seems rushed, as if two
3:07:04
episodes were squeezed into one. Plus, if you told 13 year old me
3:07:08
that Bonnie Langford would return and you'd get emotional,
3:07:11
he'd have laughed in your face. Jack Coyer very mixed a slow
3:07:16
opening as we had to labour the message a bit.
3:07:19
Did you know increased access to social media gives unsavory
3:07:21
people more range to be horrible to each other?
3:07:24
I know I didn't. I like that new regeneration
3:07:27
gave Tennant and Gatworth a chance to interact, but
3:07:28
ultimately we need more resolution to this character.
3:07:31
Will 14 die like a human or be absorbed in some fashion?
3:07:35
James H says great performances, loving the new life for Mel, but
3:07:39
I think they took the toy maker too far from the original and
3:07:41
it's more trickster than toy maker.
3:07:44
It was Interestingly, Michael Storm says Neil Patrick Harris
3:07:46
is great, but RTD seems to have mixed up the toy maker with John
3:07:49
Sims master. Gareth Bowley says as a story,
3:07:53
not great. The bit set in the past, why
3:07:56
don't add any value. The toy maker was a nice touch.
3:07:58
This episode felt like it had already by Generated and becomes
3:08:01
a showcase for that. Not really a 60th celebration.
3:08:06
Crash, Dummy says. Good fun.
3:08:07
The Stookie family of brilliant creations.
3:08:09
The toy maker is great. My generation isn't mere, but
3:08:12
doesn't hurt the story. Gatworth shines from the off.
3:08:16
Sy, Hart says, needed another part to fully explore
3:08:19
everything. It all felt rushed, Great
3:08:21
moments and set pieces throughout, but perhaps not
3:08:24
quite as good as we all hoped. Absolute who?
3:08:27
Amazing for about 40 minutes, but from the by generation
3:08:29
onwards it's juggling a little too much and simultaneously
3:08:32
trying to wrap things up and establish new things, and gets
3:08:35
quite muddled in the process. Alas, still great.
3:08:38
Just so close to excellent. Ian says my favorite episode
3:08:42
since heaven sent. Surely you mean, well, Beyoncé?
3:08:50
You mean the legend of the Sea Devils?
3:08:53
Neil Patrick Harris absolutely killed it as the toymaker and
3:08:55
the dynamic between 14 and Donna was Stella.
3:08:58
And Chris Hogben similarly says what an end to fourteens run.
3:09:01
But let's stop and thank Neil Patrick Harris for just being
3:09:04
brilliant as the toymaker and the debut of Shootie.
3:09:08
And finally, we have little Mark Who says simply.
3:09:11
The most fun I've ever had watching an episode of Doctor
3:09:15
Who. Well, that's all right then.
3:09:19
Oh. Perfect.
3:09:22
Joe, over to you. Hello.
3:09:25
Yeah, well, I loved it. I loved all the specials.
3:09:28
I mean, I'm basically going to reiterate everything you said.
3:09:30
I love the imagery. The burning Snooki Bill at the
3:09:33
beginning, the unit tower. We're going full on Marvel.
3:09:36
The vlinks. Weird as fuck, but I like it.
3:09:39
The insane Prime Minister laughing at the screen.
3:09:43
The labyrinth of hallways Stookie saw and her hungry
3:09:46
little kids. The mass.
3:09:48
The puppet. The puppet show.
3:09:50
Continuity fest. You know, a building squeezed
3:09:53
into a toy box. The spice starts routine in
3:09:55
unit. Men turn to balls, bullets turn
3:09:58
to rose petals. It's just one brilliant image
3:10:01
after another, but just on that level alone, I don't know how
3:10:04
many people can criticize this. It's just full of great images.
3:10:08
Neil Patrick Harris, as everybody has ably demonstrated
3:10:12
in this discussion, is brilliant in this.
3:10:15
I do love that accent. I'm not going to do it because I
3:10:17
can't do accents. But he's cheeky, he's here to
3:10:19
stay. He's playful, he's dangerous.
3:10:21
He's kind of everything. I don't think Michael Goff
3:10:23
managed to achieve in The Celestial Maker, frankly, I
3:10:27
think he's quite dull. Whereas I think Patrick
3:10:28
Harrison, this is great. And the funniest bit of trivia
3:10:31
was, you know, we had to do that whole routine to this Bioscale
3:10:33
song. He'd never heard of it before.
3:10:36
It's like he goes, I've done it so many Times Now.
3:10:38
I'm almost starting to like it. But anyway, and that whole
3:10:42
sequence is just a joy. I like the fact that units still
3:10:45
all women. Kate, Shirley, Mel and Donna.
3:10:48
Wonderful. Let's keep going with that.
3:10:50
I love the Doctor being introduced halfway for a story.
3:10:53
We almost got there with the stolen Earth and now we've
3:10:55
finally done it here. And like you said, it's utterly
3:10:58
choice. The bit where Shooty Gatwa took
3:11:01
one look at David Tennant and goes come here and gives him a
3:11:04
hug. I mean, that's absurd, isn't it?
3:11:06
But it's so moving and I love, love, love.
3:11:09
The scene in the Garden at the end where that strand of the
3:11:12
Doctor gets a happy ending with his friends.
3:11:15
It's again leaning into that stuff we talked about with Power
3:11:17
and the Doctor. His friends are the most
3:11:19
important thing. It's just gorgeous, this.
3:11:21
I think it's terrific. You people are mad in the
3:11:24
comments. Over to the James, what are you
3:11:28
thinking? You know I do think this is 2/3
3:11:33
of a great story and I I'm afraid I think it's anti
3:11:37
climactic. I I I think look regeneration is
3:11:43
a is a is a clever way of recasting your lead.
3:11:45
I'm not going to get kind of upset over by generation and try
3:11:48
and kind of explain logically why time log couldn't possibly
3:11:53
put another time Log out of it. I just think dramatically it's
3:11:56
it's a little bit of a have your cake and eat it idea and it
3:11:59
exists mainly so that we can have a redundant 10 minutes at
3:12:04
the end of this story of pure sentimentality.
3:12:09
Rusty Davis sometimes is not very good at wrapping up his
3:12:13
stories. And I think if it was 5 minutes,
3:12:17
you know, there's some, there's some really great character
3:12:19
stuff here. I think that the subtle moments
3:12:21
between the Donna and Donna and the Doctor and between Mel and
3:12:25
the Doctor are so gorgeous in this and so well played and and
3:12:28
they work because they're underplayed while story is going
3:12:31
on. I think you end your story 10
3:12:32
minutes early to have the doctor admitting that he's tired or
3:12:38
being told by another doctor that he's tired, that he's thin,
3:12:41
he needs time off. The problem is you you start to
3:12:45
draw attention to the idea that, well, it's suggested here since
3:12:50
An Unearthly Child episode One, or rather just An Unearthly
3:12:54
Child. The Doctor's been on the run and
3:12:56
hasn't stopped. The minute you start to
3:12:57
scrutinise that, it makes no sense at all.
3:12:59
It's just it's ludicrous to think that this man has been
3:13:02
having all these adventures in a row and I don't think it kind of
3:13:06
makes any sense to draw attention to that.
3:13:08
I also think it goes into sort of unbridled fanservice, not in
3:13:11
a fun way like the power of the Doctor did, but they're just
3:13:13
standing there going, Oh yes, and Adric, oh Adric, Oh yes and
3:13:17
Dodo. She didn't get a proper write
3:13:19
out did she? I feel like kind of.
3:13:22
It's name checking people and stories for Oh yes, that time
3:13:27
when we did the thing and oh, it's for fans only and and I
3:13:31
don't think it works as character development.
3:13:33
I think in this sequence Murray Gold is this absolute worst, I
3:13:38
think absolutely, utterly saccharine.
3:13:41
And it's also stupid like getting the comedy mallet out.
3:13:44
So it's going to bash a TARDIS. I mean really, is that really
3:13:48
how we're going to do this? Even the wheelchair ramp.
3:13:51
I know why he's doing it. I'm all for this this
3:13:54
accessibility, but and the minute you start to question how
3:13:58
you get in and out of the TARDIS, you go well.
3:13:59
But how did K9 get in and out of the TARDIS then?
3:14:02
Well, he didn't. That's why the camera.
3:14:03
Was cut away, so we never. Saw it exactly.
3:14:05
But I feel like the point has already been better made all and
3:14:08
like as I said with the Star Beast, it's like he's drawing
3:14:12
attention to things he's done already and better and in a way
3:14:16
that's not on the nose. So I'm, I'm, I also just I feel
3:14:20
like the first 2/3 of these episodes are so good, are so
3:14:24
atmospheric, are so scary. Like this imagery of the puppet
3:14:29
Catching Fire, the the that's the choreography, the
3:14:33
choreography of that riot scene where David Tennant wands into
3:14:37
it and there's stuff going in the background and Neil Patrick
3:14:39
Harris just drifts on in a top hat in the background.
3:14:41
It's so well done. And the when they go back in
3:14:48
time, I think that toymaker sequence is incredibly well
3:14:52
realised. I think it's got imagery to die
3:14:55
for the stookie puppets attacking Donna.
3:14:57
I think the bit where he erects the theatre and goes through the
3:15:00
former companions is and the design full stop is beautiful.
3:15:07
So I just don't think having established the toy maker as
3:15:10
someone with that kind of level of power that level of scary you
3:15:14
can turn people into puppets and who and see into the Doctor's
3:15:19
personalities to the point that it's it's unnerving him that
3:15:22
much and it's and it's so well played by Tennant as well He you
3:15:25
know he he you really believe that he's facing you know one of
3:15:29
his greatest adversaries which anyone who's seen the Celestial
3:15:33
Toymaker knows is not necessarily the case but but it
3:15:36
sells it for this story. I just don't think a game of
3:15:40
Catch does, does it? As a as a as a climax to that.
3:15:44
However, I mean it's very well shot.
3:15:46
It's it's joyous, as you say. I you know, I love Shooty
3:15:50
emerging. I love his reaction, I love the
3:15:53
dynamic between him and Tennant, but it's not a climax to the
3:15:56
story that's been set up here. So it's it's in for me, but it's
3:16:00
in with a slight feeling that it should have had a better ending.
3:16:05
There should have been another way.
3:16:07
Can I also say that this is, I mean, the other reason the
3:16:10
climax doesn't match at the beginning is that this is an
3:16:12
angry script. You get the sense that the scene
3:16:15
where David Tennant shouts you know you, that's who you are,
3:16:20
using your intelligence to be stupid.
3:16:22
You never need any help with that.
3:16:23
This is, this is a script that's born of Russell D Davis looking
3:16:27
at everyone thinking they're right on social media and beyond
3:16:31
and you know, they shout, they type, they cancel.
3:16:33
He's angry about this. And for the 1st 2/3, this is a
3:16:36
script about something, I think the fact that he has Kate
3:16:41
Stewart going off on one at Shirley and saying some of the
3:16:46
things that were said about Ruth Medley.
3:16:50
You know, after she crossed her legs in the Starbeast, you had
3:16:53
people on the ignorant twats on the Internet saying, well, she's
3:16:56
not really disabled, she doesn't need a wheelchair.
3:16:58
Well, Kate Stewart says that in a script that Rusty Davis wrote,
3:17:01
you know, a year before that, anticipating the rank stupidity
3:17:06
of people. And I think that's a powerful
3:17:08
thing indeed. And I wish the climax had had
3:17:11
really kind of leaned into that. There's a line which I wrote
3:17:14
down. Something else is using your
3:17:16
worst attributes and playing with them like toys.
3:17:19
That's such a great line. Anyway, sorry Michael.
3:17:25
Yeah, I think it's it's that's an interesting point that I do
3:17:28
think. I do think as a script.
3:17:31
It is one that that loses the thread of some of its ideas
3:17:36
which you know has been touched on.
3:17:39
Russell T Davis does not only do here.
3:17:41
I wonder if some of that was lost in in how the story
3:17:44
evolved. I think he said that in
3:17:45
originally Spooky Bill was the villain.
3:17:48
It was only when you realized that actually it doesn't sort of
3:17:50
work thematically or visually. Sorry to have a just a doll as
3:17:56
your villain. So you need someone to be
3:17:57
working the doll so to make OK blah blah blah blah blah.
3:17:59
It does feel like that first part of the story was a
3:18:02
different story that was about television the whole the whole
3:18:05
trying to link in 100 years of television to people being angry
3:18:10
social media online. It doesn't actually really sort
3:18:13
of mesh doesn't. It doesn't actually work,
3:18:15
although the story tells you it does, because it sort of slips
3:18:19
away from being about television being about something else.
3:18:22
And I think there's just some COGS there that are slightly
3:18:26
grinding against each other. Have you not seen points of
3:18:29
view? People are angry on that show
3:18:34
what Barry took her to put up with.
3:18:37
Well, which is fine, but then you know the the Trinity Wales
3:18:42
cameo site, which is great. I just think there's a sort of
3:18:48
in terms of making a piece of drama that is about a particular
3:18:51
topic. I don't think it carries you
3:18:54
through that of that shift that it's making.
3:18:57
And I don't think it's talking about those things nebulously
3:19:00
enough because it makes such a point about television at the
3:19:03
start to then end up talking about social media and you and I
3:19:07
can draw that, can draw that there.
3:19:09
And I'm not saying it's something that necessarily
3:19:10
jumped out to me while I was watching it, but I think it's
3:19:12
maybe an explanation of why some of those ideas aren't fully
3:19:15
resolved because what he's talking about shifts a bit as
3:19:19
it's going on. That said, I do love this
3:19:22
episode. I do think it's really good.
3:19:24
I think Doctor Who Versus a God has been done many times in the
3:19:27
past, but I think this is the most effectively it's been done.
3:19:30
I think he does that through breaking those rules about what
3:19:33
you're allowed to show and what your eyes depict people doing in
3:19:36
Doctor Who. The line that was picked out by
3:19:38
one of the commenters about how many jigsaw of your history.
3:19:41
Oh, OK Well, that's all the explanation you get because
3:19:43
you're talking to a God. Because we're not dealing with
3:19:46
pseudo scientific threats here, dealing with something that
3:19:49
operates on a level beyond the cognition and the understanding
3:19:53
of these characters. And so therefore our fiction,
3:19:55
our drama operates in different ways and particularly those bits
3:19:59
going back into the past. Whoever it was who had a go
3:20:00
about had a go at the bit in the past for not adding anything.
3:20:04
Sorry, it's the best bit of the whole episode.
3:20:05
What are you talking about? It's magical.
3:20:09
It's wonderful the the way that that comes across into the the
3:20:13
shooting of the episode as well. I think he also is really quite
3:20:16
smart about handling the way he handles the toy maker, A
3:20:20
character who, I think it's fair to say, comes with some weight
3:20:25
in fan discourse, shall we say that?
3:20:28
I think whatever one's feelings on those topics are what
3:20:31
everyone's own arguments, interpretations, the written
3:20:33
version of the character. I think if you are doing that
3:20:36
character as someone who is aware of those arguments, you
3:20:39
are going to be aware of them and perhaps be aware of how
3:20:41
others might view that character.
3:20:44
So I think the idea that he is someone who just turned into a
3:20:48
character who effects different outfits and different
3:20:51
personalities and different trappings of different cultural
3:20:58
characters is a really smart idea.
3:21:02
I think it works really well. It's interesting something they
3:21:05
they do with the Sasha Dwight, Master in Power of the Doctor as
3:21:08
well, this person who is always changing, who is always he was
3:21:11
sort of trivialising your reality by putting on different
3:21:16
costumes and sort of laughing about it because he thinks it's
3:21:18
all a game of fun. There are some similarities
3:21:20
there, but also really works when you're trying to
3:21:22
characterize this, depict this character as being a God because
3:21:25
he is just playing, he is just playing, It's being a person.
3:21:28
So now I'm going so, oh, back then I was, you know, you know,
3:21:33
I was Occidental stage magician, dressing up in stereo, typical
3:21:40
Chinese clothes. Now I'm going to be a World War
3:21:43
2 pilot and a German toy maker. And because I'm basically
3:21:47
behaving like a child because I do not need to behave in any
3:21:51
other way because I'm a God. And I think that really plays
3:21:54
into the threat of the character.
3:21:55
And I think I agree with everybody saying Neil Patrick
3:21:57
Harris is just wonderful and it is worth remembering every now
3:22:03
and again just resetting ourselves as Doctor Who fans to
3:22:06
take a moment, take a breath and go.
3:22:08
In the year of our Lords 2022-2023, Sabalon Glitz got a
3:22:14
Viking funeral on prime time Doctor Who.
3:22:18
We we won, didn't we Like that. We Absolutely.
3:22:21
Won. Fantastic.
3:22:25
So the giggle goes through. Gosh, Joe, Final story.
3:22:31
Yes. Oh, thank you.
3:22:34
We've been at this for 3 1/2 hours.
3:22:37
I've lost track. Well, I think it's just
3:22:40
wonderful. The Walters Mars.
3:22:42
I think Graham Harper, in his very last directing stint on
3:22:46
Doctor Who, delivers one of the most perfect bits of direction
3:22:50
you're ever going to see. How he paces this episode to
3:22:55
that furious climax. There's 10 minutes where the
3:22:58
pace ramps and ramps and ramps allow climax to that explosion
3:23:03
on Mars. I just think it is a beautiful
3:23:06
piece of telly in how it's constructed, yeah.
3:23:10
He comes at it with pace, momentum, dramatic moments.
3:23:13
He never forgets to highlight the actors, the impressive
3:23:17
actors that are in this. He shoves the camera so far in
3:23:20
Lindsay Duncan's face any any other actor would be go Oh my
3:23:25
God, no, she's there, she's there, she's doing it, she's
3:23:27
playing it for real. And he does genuine scares as
3:23:32
well. I think this is the scariest
3:23:36
while Blue Yonder has its moments, but I think this is the
3:23:38
scariest of all the episodes we're talking about today.
3:23:42
Whilst I'm talking about Lindsay Duncan, I think it's one of the
3:23:45
most impressive turns by a guest actor ever in Dogs who is a
3:23:49
weighty role to play and she was well chosen.
3:23:52
I love the fact that Adelaide is tough, She's cold.
3:23:55
How she slowly sort of thaws throughout the first half of the
3:23:59
episode. She had so much nuance and class
3:24:03
to that production. The rest of the actors, they're
3:24:05
they're all very good, actually. That's one classy performance.
3:24:09
The relationship between Adelaide and the Doctor and how
3:24:12
that plays out throughout this is so impressive.
3:24:15
But the thing I love the most about the Waters of Mars is how
3:24:19
it dares to make the Doctor the scariest thing in the show.
3:24:24
And it's almost as if the Doctor that's bought into his own myth
3:24:28
at this point. You know, David Tennant was the
3:24:30
biggest thing on television at this point.
3:24:33
And it's almost as if the Doctor knows it, and even fucking time
3:24:37
isn't going to get in his way. If time, since it's supposed to
3:24:39
go this way and he thinks it isn't, then he's going to tear
3:24:42
it down. And how that plays out of the
3:24:47
end, where it's a moment of triumph because he's coming in
3:24:50
and saving the day. But how the episode has set that
3:24:53
up so it is very frightening and wrong.
3:24:56
And the reaction from Adelaide throughout that whole sequence,
3:25:00
you know, we keep cutting back to her because she's there to
3:25:04
tell us that actually what he's doing is wrong and these people
3:25:07
should die. And I've heard readings that no,
3:25:09
of course, the Doctor's just doing what he should do and what
3:25:11
he does all the time. But this episode has gone to
3:25:13
great pains to show that these people should die.
3:25:17
So it is, it is wrong. And then how that snatched away
3:25:22
from him in the end when they go to the Snowy St. and she commits
3:25:25
suicide, which is such a strong moment for a Doctor Who story.
3:25:29
And I've complained elsewhere about moments being a bit too
3:25:33
adult. Certainly in Steven Moffitt's
3:25:35
time, I think you just about get away with it here because it's
3:25:39
off screen, it's just a flash of light.
3:25:41
But you know, there's no, there's no interpretation.
3:25:44
We know exactly what's going on and I think taking the character
3:25:49
in such a dark direction just before tenants bowing out, it's
3:25:53
both absolutely insane and brilliant.
3:25:57
Like it's the last thing I ever would expected to do.
3:25:59
So as I watched this episode play out, I was like, are we
3:26:01
doing this? Are we making the docs of the
3:26:03
villain of the show? And then, you know when when
3:26:05
they said the Next Time teaser, and it was the Master, I
3:26:09
thought, are we going to do David Tennant's last story with
3:26:11
him as the villain and John Zuma is the hero?
3:26:14
I mean, we didn't go down that route.
3:26:15
But for a second I was so convinced by the ending of this.
3:26:19
Yeah, just, I think it is a, it's a perfect Doctor Who Horror
3:26:23
Story. It's a perfect Doctor Who
3:26:25
morality play. It's a brilliant character story
3:26:28
as well. All of those characters on the
3:26:30
base are well defined. I'll just highlight Steffi the
3:26:33
moment where Steffi dies and oh man, I get chills every time I
3:26:37
see that. The water comes down, she goes
3:26:39
into the room, she pulls up the kids on the screen.
3:26:43
But we barely know that person. We barely spent any time with
3:26:45
her. And I've literally got chills
3:26:47
watching that woman die. I think it's brilliant.
3:26:50
I think on every single level The Waters of Mars is superb.
3:26:55
Thank you very much. Let's go to our last set of
3:26:57
listener comments. So it's it's.
3:27:00
I was just deferential. No, it was sorry.
3:27:03
It was it was me. But my my thing wasn't working.
3:27:07
So let me go back to things. Cut spit out.
3:27:11
Yeah, let's. Seamless.
3:27:15
Oh, no, it's not anymore. I've ruined it.
3:27:18
Start it again. And Q Gareth Barley says bleak,
3:27:27
boring, No real repercussions for these disjointed specials.
3:27:31
What? Lucy McCall says tents creepy
3:27:34
and shocking. The base team are really well
3:27:36
played, especially the wonderful Adelaide.
3:27:38
Her ending still makes me angry to this day.
3:27:41
Herald of Creation Overrated. Despite excellent performances
3:27:45
from David Tennant and Lindsay Duncan, it doesn't quite work.
3:27:48
Dave, Rennie says, astonishing, superbly.
3:27:50
Acted bleak as hell. The final third is so gripping.
3:27:54
Tennant goes too shouty for me, but the tough scene is so dark.
3:27:59
Prez says the floods are probably the only monster to
3:28:02
ever properly terrify me in the entire show.
3:28:04
So much so that I didn't even want to re watch the episode for
3:28:07
ages. Paul Quinn, Always in tune with
3:28:10
Joe. Says.
3:28:13
The worst episode ever. I hate it.
3:28:16
With a passion so bleak, with that dreary, changing history,
3:28:19
storyline and the Time Lord Victoria Shtick leading to
3:28:22
tenant wearing a cowboy hat and a feather boa in the next
3:28:25
episode. Doctor Who should never be that
3:28:27
hopeless, but if they were going down that route, at least do
3:28:30
something with it on screen. Daniel Rawnsley says
3:28:32
marvellously. Creepy with the superb cast that
3:28:35
still finds time for a funny robot and goofy Russian accents.
3:28:39
Tennant has never been better, his scenery chewing tipping into
3:28:42
quiet menace as the bristling arrogance and hubris that
3:28:45
defines his Doctor comes to the full.
3:28:48
Martin Parsons I'm beginning to sense that this story divides
3:28:51
opinion, he says. Pretty dreadful.
3:28:55
The make up effects are silly, the robot annoying as hell, the
3:28:57
ending portentous without going anywhere.
3:28:59
And ultimately it makes zero sense.
3:29:01
My Nan topped herself, so I became a space pilot.
3:29:04
That's nice, Sue. Well, Psych Hart goes down the
3:29:08
middle with good good, but sadly we needed a whole spin off
3:29:13
series to deal with the repercussions.
3:29:14
Did we? Did we are?
3:29:16
John Mensalia says even a grumpy old fart like me will concede
3:29:19
that this is an excellent bit of sci-fi horror.
3:29:22
The characters are well drawn and acted.
3:29:24
Harper's direction is superb, and Tenant's usual mania
3:29:26
actually works to his advantage. Andy Parkinson says scarily.
3:29:31
Brilliant for about 55 minutes until the suicide scene.
3:29:34
WTF. That makes little sense and the
3:29:37
whole lonely God thing has become tedious.
3:29:39
Great ensemble cast and perfectly captures the
3:29:41
claustrophobic atmosphere. David Gillespie Pratt says
3:29:44
Doctor Who should be a light, fun action adventure, but now
3:29:47
and then it's nice to dim the lights.
3:29:50
The Flood is a superb creation and thank God they've been kept
3:29:53
as a one off. The possession scenes are
3:29:55
genuinely scary and Lindsay Duncan is superb.
3:30:00
They did come back in a Titan comic where they met Fenrik
3:30:04
fans. Stephen Rhodes, all right, but
3:30:09
the entire episode feels like it's there to just slowly build
3:30:12
up to that final scene and that's it.
3:30:14
Really surprised to find this one's quite popular.
3:30:16
Apparently not. Trem Visual says it's rare to
3:30:20
see the Doctor lose it so completely.
3:30:22
It's a grim story. It's one thing for the Doctor to
3:30:24
fail to save people, another for the villains of the story to
3:30:27
slaughter, and yet another thing for a suicide as a fuck you to
3:30:31
the Doctor. Ian Winston One of the best
3:30:34
episodes ever with a huge robot and zombies.
3:30:37
It works well for kids, but there's much more to it.
3:30:39
Love for doctor's hubris and tying in that Adelaide was
3:30:42
spared by a Dalek as a child. Daniel Knight says, as dark as I
3:30:46
want who to get with no moffaty bobbins or timey wimey nonsense
3:30:50
to win the day, Lindsay Duncan is electric, an effective foil
3:30:54
for David Talent, who gives his best performance.
3:30:57
Harper's direction gives the episode an unnerving energy.
3:31:02
Jack Coyer, gripping direction and tenant, gives one of his
3:31:04
finest performances. Who knew water could be so
3:31:06
scary? Cried the unwashed masses of
3:31:09
Doctor Who nerds. Absolute who says a great base
3:31:13
under siege story with a cast. I love Adelaide.
3:31:16
Brooke is excellent and I love 10's performance.
3:31:18
The flood of great Time Lord Victorious feels monumental.
3:31:21
Music is great. Setting is so gripping I adore
3:31:24
it. 10's best episode. And finally, Tom Newson.
3:31:28
Thrilling sci-fi action that gives that goes almost too dark
3:31:32
at the end, hey? So Joe, you've obviously
3:31:37
championed it. Of course you are completely
3:31:39
correct. You will worry them for a
3:31:42
minute. No, I don't say that very often.
3:31:44
It must be getting late. Of course I'm going to champion
3:31:48
it, even though it's spawned that God awful, massive
3:31:50
multimedia event that was Time Lord Victorious.
3:31:54
Which, as I alluded to with the War Doctor earlier, just was a
3:31:58
horrendous mask because it tries to make the Doctor too dark and
3:32:01
doesn't know where to go with. It could have been worse though,
3:32:03
Rod. It could have been doomsday.
3:32:06
That that is a very fairpoint well made, yes.
3:32:09
I don't think multimedia events really work terribly well.
3:32:13
OK, so my three reasons as quickly as possible for this.
3:32:16
The first one is I think this story obviously does new things,
3:32:19
and I'm not decrying that at all.
3:32:21
But this story absolutely encapsulates the DNA of Doctor
3:32:25
Who. So take, if you will, the
3:32:27
central conceit of Hartnell's Alstex, where you don't change
3:32:30
history, not one line. Stick to that and then flip it
3:32:33
on it's head at the climax, adding a Trouton off world base
3:32:36
under siege manned by an international crew.
3:32:40
Throw in a bit of Ice Warriors where the threat is hidden in
3:32:43
the ice. Throw in a bit of pert weed
3:32:45
because you've got a chase sequence with a souped up
3:32:47
machine. Then adding a bit of Hinch,
3:32:49
Hinchcliffe and Holmes body Horror.
3:32:51
Increase the shocks and add a memorable quotation so water
3:32:55
always wins us up there with Eldrad Must Live or contact has
3:32:58
been made from Davison. Take a young doctor working
3:33:02
superbly well with an older woman who doesn't initially take
3:33:06
to to his charm from Colin Baker.
3:33:08
It's hard to find something from Colin, but take from Colin the
3:33:11
massacre of the cast, leaving us wondering if anyone will be
3:33:14
standing at the end. And of course, throwing a
3:33:16
gratuitous old monster just for good effect.
3:33:19
And from Sylvester's time does a superb ensemble cast, all of
3:33:23
whom we want to spend time with. And then from across all of
3:33:27
Doctor Who, there's lots of running up and down corridors.
3:33:30
How do people like Doctor Who not love this story?
3:33:33
It's just it's just wedded and knitted in pure Doctor Who.
3:33:37
But it's got the sensibilities, wit, heart and intelligence of
3:33:41
RTD together. Admittedly with the kind of
3:33:43
aesthetics and some of the character beats of Impossible
3:33:46
Planet, but nevertheless, it's got everything that people who
3:33:50
love Doctor Who should love. So it's an obvious, it's an
3:33:52
obvious, yes. The second reason, it's pace and
3:33:55
energy, Joe, you have extolled Graham Harper and you're
3:33:58
absolutely right to do so. The pacing is tremendous, but
3:34:01
things really well balanced. So yes, there's lots and lots of
3:34:05
action and certainly in the in the last third, as you, as you
3:34:07
talked about earlier, really ramps up, but also has a couple
3:34:11
of really important quiet moments to give you the humanity
3:34:14
of the episode. You talked about the moment with
3:34:17
Steffi looking at the girls on the screen.
3:34:19
There are three video messages throughout this, and all of them
3:34:21
are really clever. The first one's right at the
3:34:23
beginning, where Adelaide is talking to her daughter and
3:34:26
tells you everything you need to know about Adelaide right from
3:34:29
the start because she's quite kind of frustrated and prickly
3:34:31
with her daughter. My daughter realises that
3:34:34
although there's that bomb there, Adelaide is more
3:34:36
interested in the spirit of adventure.
3:34:38
She sacrificed her family for going out into space.
3:34:42
And you also see Yuri talking to his brother on the screen tells
3:34:45
you all you need to know about love and family.
3:34:48
So I think that's really clever. But there are two other big
3:34:51
quieter moments in this. The first one is when Adelaide
3:34:54
and the Doctor are talking at the ice face and she tells the
3:34:57
story of how she was spared by the Dalek.
3:34:59
And then you get the other moment that's quiet where she
3:35:01
traps tenant in the air Kellogg before he's about to leave, he
3:35:05
says. Damn.
3:35:07
You dog. Exactly.
3:35:09
There are moments that are so fundamental to the episode, and
3:35:12
if you didn't have those quiet moments to kind of give you the
3:35:15
counterpoints of the fastness and the energy going on
3:35:18
elsewhere, it wouldn't work so well.
3:35:20
And they're played brilliantly by Davidson and Lindsay Duncan,
3:35:24
so I just think the pacing and the energy is spot on here.
3:35:28
And finally, Murray James. You've been giving Murray a bit
3:35:31
of a bashing this episode, and I'm not standing for it.
3:35:35
I also I also flagged up his best score for Doctor Whoever.
3:35:39
I've been quite generous to him as well in other places.
3:35:42
OK, I'll give you that. But this is one of his best
3:35:45
scores. I think this is magnificent.
3:35:47
It's a bit like Heaven Sent, where the music becomes almost
3:35:51
like another character in the story.
3:35:53
That last third, you don't hear the dialogue that's going on
3:35:56
underneath. You assume it's just very
3:35:57
functional, but we don't need to hear it.
3:35:59
You just hear the kind of chitter chatter in the
3:36:01
background. The the music is doing all the
3:36:04
work for you and building up that pace and energy obviously
3:36:07
combined with the amazing direction, everything else
3:36:09
that's going on. But music just really ramps up
3:36:12
and I think it's wonderful. So for those reasons, of course
3:36:16
it is going through James, would you like to champion or decry
3:36:22
this at your peril? At the risk of sounding like a
3:36:25
stuck record, I don't think the ending works, and I I think that
3:36:32
David Tennant is genuinely scarily unhinged in this.
3:36:36
I think he's brilliant in this performance.
3:36:38
I just don't think the moment is earned.
3:36:41
I don't buy the whole Time Lord Victorious thing.
3:36:44
It's written as though this is a monumental thing that we're
3:36:46
supposed to believe has been built up to clearly some people.
3:36:49
It's clearly worth some people because they thought it was
3:36:51
worth a multi platform story told across audio, novels,
3:36:54
comics, vinyl, digital immersive theatre and escape rooms.
3:36:56
I. Don't know of anyone bought you
3:36:58
though, James. No, no, of course no one didn't.
3:37:00
But was I the only one who when this thing came out.
3:37:03
Plus with Time Lord victorious, unlike Time Lord.
3:37:05
What? You know he has a moment where
3:37:07
he stands up and goes Time Lord victorious.
3:37:09
OK, it feels like a line that's been written by someone who
3:37:14
thinks it's going to be turned into a multi platform story, but
3:37:16
it doesn't. It comes out of nowhere.
3:37:18
And I don't, I just don't. It's very powerful.
3:37:23
It's very powerful, but I feel like it's it's signifying
3:37:29
nothing. Back to Macbeth and I I know
3:37:34
that Joe won't agree that an episode like this would be
3:37:37
improved by the presence of Sophie Aldridge, but when he
3:37:40
gets them back to Earth, I feel like she needs to be there going
3:37:42
Thank you, Doctor. Thank you, Ace.
3:37:44
Thank you for saving my life and getting me back home because
3:37:46
frankly, that's what you would say, however momentous you
3:37:51
thought your death was meant to be.
3:37:52
If someone say got you out of that situation I I don't think.
3:37:56
He's talking your language though, because she does say to
3:37:58
her, but Tom, Lord Victorious is wrong.
3:38:01
She does, and then she commits suicide.
3:38:04
And I I'm afraid, I just think that's tasteless.
3:38:07
I think it's. I think even if you even if you
3:38:10
think the moment is dramatically, I don't.
3:38:12
But even if you do I think it's highly inappropriate for Doctor
3:38:15
Who which is a family show. You know, there have been some
3:38:19
horrific things in Doctor Who, but what was it Moffett used to
3:38:25
say? You know the monsters.
3:38:26
Kids dream about monsters anyway.
3:38:28
But the Doctors there now what this episode does is it is it
3:38:32
shows you the monsters and one of the monsters is is yourself
3:38:36
and it shows you a suicide And the Doctor's not there.
3:38:40
And I I just think that's nasty to in an extent that I don't,
3:38:46
that I don't think is justified and I I don't think it's
3:38:48
appropriate for Doctor Who. We said that way that that
3:38:51
Russell has massive heart and brings a lot of emotion to the
3:38:54
screen. I also think he's quite a cold,
3:38:56
callous bastard at times as well and sort of brings that that
3:39:01
those realities of life to the screen too.
3:39:03
And I think, yeah, wherever this lands with you, it's either
3:39:06
going to work or it's not. I buy what Rod's saying about
3:39:10
the Aztecs but done in the future and if he'd if he'd made
3:39:14
the decision to save them and it has had consequences, I'd buy
3:39:17
that as a dramatic twist, that the Doctor has saved some lives
3:39:20
which he shouldn't have saved and therefore he has to account
3:39:24
for that. But the idea that the lives he
3:39:26
he saved someone's life and they turn on him and and and snatched
3:39:31
away from him is is the the nastiest sting in the tail.
3:39:37
I should also point out that this was the other episode I
3:39:40
watched with my friend Jem the opera singer who was fairly cold
3:39:46
towards Planet of the Dead and this one she said wow that was
3:39:51
amazing. So maybe we shouldn't make too
3:39:53
many assumptions about you know, what members of the public would
3:39:56
will make of Doctor Who and maybe this is I mean she's a fan
3:39:58
of horror films so this is doing something clearly effective.
3:40:03
I don't deny the the the power of it.
3:40:06
I just don't think it's, I don't think it's right for Doctor Who
3:40:09
and as I say, I don't think the moment's earned.
3:40:11
I I mean, I I think Tenant is incredible in this in this
3:40:15
story. But it comes out of nowhere and
3:40:18
you know maybe if the maybe if they'd done what you were
3:40:20
expecting Joe and and and he'd been the villain in his final
3:40:23
episode that would have been better than what if.
3:40:25
I think pretty much anything would have been better than what
3:40:27
we got. But it's.
3:40:28
Very weird how that starts, isn't it?
3:40:30
Yeah, really, really weird. Really weird.
3:40:32
Well, yeah, And it does as one of the comments said it It goes
3:40:34
into that dreadful scene where he's wearing the cowboy hat.
3:40:36
But it's suddenly Christmas Day it's really hard to to be that
3:40:40
bleak Suddenly on Christmas Day isn't.
3:40:42
It it it it's it's not prepared for and I don't think it's
3:40:46
necessary in an episode that is so effectively bleak and I do
3:40:49
think that this is mostly brilliant Doctor Who it's does
3:40:53
horror so well with memorable imagery and this they've seen
3:40:59
the died 2059 scene where he just where he remembers all you
3:41:02
know he remembers reading about them all goes through them all.
3:41:04
He's seeing all the individuals. Remembering the individual
3:41:06
deaths is great. The the fact that this unfolds
3:41:12
in a way that gives it space to breathe like you say it gives
3:41:15
individual deaths so much power. The the airlock scene as you say
3:41:21
is is breathtaking. And I to to the point where I
3:41:24
kind of thought why doesn't Doctor Who do this more often.
3:41:26
You know to have him in a situation where he's saying
3:41:28
imagine you know something. Yeah.
3:41:32
Absolute hair standing up on on on the back of my neck for most
3:41:36
of this. So I I think I'm voting it in.
3:41:41
But once again I'm saying what a pity that it leads to a final 10
3:41:47
minutes that leaves such a bitter taste in my mouth and and
3:41:50
feels unnecessary. You know, it could have had a,
3:41:52
it could have had a a perfectly optimistic ending or it could
3:41:55
have had a bleak ending which which didn't have to go down the
3:41:59
route it goes. But it's got shame from
3:42:01
neighbours in it, so look, it's in.
3:42:05
Michael. Yeah, I think you you have to
3:42:13
have someone call the 10th Doctor on his arrogance at this
3:42:17
point in in the series. You know we we talked about
3:42:20
Planet of the Dead and how annoying the character is in
3:42:23
that and I think in later period RTD one the the smugness of that
3:42:29
character and the and the smugness of the show seems to
3:42:32
afford him as well. It seems to agree with him but
3:42:34
everyone thinks he's amazing. It does great in some of those
3:42:38
later episodes. So I think it is right and it's
3:42:39
smart that Russell T Davis is examining that and and what's
3:42:44
the end of that? My concern and my worry is that
3:42:49
it's too big an idea for such a short runtime.
3:42:53
And I think it's something Russell Davis has come to you
3:42:55
very late sort of very late. Now I've got we should really
3:42:57
talk about this, but I don't know that you can do it just
3:43:00
this in a single episode. I think it's a season finale
3:43:04
idea. I think it's something that you
3:43:05
build an entire arc around. It would be fantastic and I
3:43:09
think some of the problems that come from addressing that come
3:43:12
from the fact that it's trying to do it in such with such
3:43:15
limited space. I I agree that I think the the
3:43:19
suicide element is is inappropriate within within the
3:43:24
show as and it's not the only time that Doctor Who has done
3:43:26
things that I think are inappropriate in that way.
3:43:28
But I do. I do think it is.
3:43:29
I think you need. I think it's a weird idea to
3:43:32
have someone be saved by the doctor and then be like, no, you
3:43:37
don't actually get to make yourself a God.
3:43:39
You don't actually get to decide what you do for me.
3:43:42
You don't get to be in charge of me and decide what is best for
3:43:46
history because you sit above it all.
3:43:48
But I think it needed more space in order to do that in a way
3:43:52
that came across as less crass. And I think there is always a
3:43:55
danger when one really starts to get close to, you know, lived
3:44:00
experiences and and and really serious real world issues that
3:44:03
if you are going to address them directly, you do have a
3:44:09
responsibility towards your audience of doing that in a way
3:44:14
that is appropriate and doesn't run the risk of looking like
3:44:19
you're using it just to add weight to your drama.
3:44:23
And I worry that's what comes across.
3:44:25
And each time I watch it, it just feels off to me.
3:44:31
The fact even that it's a it's a laser gun she uses And I I
3:44:35
wonder and I might be remembering some of an interview
3:44:37
here, maybe not maybe making it up if that was done to try and
3:44:41
slightly lessen what she's doing, but you couldn't have
3:44:43
someone shoot themselves with a real gun on television.
3:44:46
But to me that almost seems to cheapen it a bit more to say to
3:44:50
say that this is some sort of sci-fi act and I don't know it
3:44:52
is. And that that bit sits very
3:44:55
uncomfortably with me in that episode.
3:44:57
It's still a flash behind a window.
3:44:59
You'd see. You'd see it's the done in
3:45:01
exactly the same way as it would be if it was a firearm.
3:45:03
Yeah, exactly. It doesn't soften it that much.
3:45:05
And if anything it looks a little bit just, you know,
3:45:09
further further inappropriate to be done in that way.
3:45:12
So I I do struggle whenever I get to the end of the episode to
3:45:15
get around that bit because I think actually that that sits in
3:45:18
contrast to how other other in other places that are
3:45:23
examinations of tragedy in a way that are done really well and
3:45:27
really intelligently within that sci-fi context.
3:45:29
Joe mentioned that you know the scene with with Steffi playing a
3:45:32
message from her children, which is heartbreaking.
3:45:34
It is awful, but it doesn't feel inappropriate.
3:45:37
It feels that you are connecting your science fiction to to real
3:45:43
experiences in a way that does not feel inappropriately,
3:45:50
inappropriately done, I think. But I have a mixed, but I have
3:45:57
mixed things about this because I I think I like the idea of
3:46:00
addressing all of that and I think it shows it can be done.
3:46:02
I think they just didn't have the space to do it properly.
3:46:07
One thing I do like about it, on a lighter note is I like Doctor
3:46:10
Who dressing up and pretending to be hard sci-fi for a bit.
3:46:13
Because Doctor Who does this, it puts up the costumes of other
3:46:15
genres and goes, oh, I'm going to be gothic horror this week,
3:46:18
or maybe I'll be a superhero film and I like it go, oh, I'm
3:46:22
going to be Kim Stanley Robinson this week.
3:46:25
Oh, let's have an let's, let's have an orbital lift or
3:46:29
something like that. That sounds like something
3:46:31
people talk about, let's talk about things happening in space,
3:46:33
year 2030. But that's the past.
3:46:36
I I I like all of that. So that that would get a plus
3:46:40
vote for me on that front, but a big minus vote.
3:46:43
And there is this. The effing robot is just
3:46:48
rubbish. I know Wally, I know Wally had
3:46:51
come out. I know kids liked it, but it is
3:46:53
just rubbish. If they go, oh it's really
3:46:56
rubbish through. But yeah, it looks like a.
3:46:57
Gadget. Gadget.
3:46:58
It's. Just so It's just not got
3:46:59
anything else to do there, and it is so obviously there to
3:47:02
provide something of resolution. And one of the most truly
3:47:05
rubbish cliffhangers in the history of Doctor Who.
3:47:08
You know they used, they'd love to go on about, oh, you know the
3:47:10
the crash into the opening title sequence is our version of the
3:47:13
old cliffhangers. Well, if so, what sort of
3:47:16
cliffhanger is Gadget. Gadget.
3:47:19
Poor one. Love that bit where he's
3:47:21
screaming across the Martian side towards the top I.
3:47:24
Love that bit. I love that bit too.
3:47:26
It doesn't justify the rest of its rubbishness.
3:47:28
Also doesn't help with the chap playing his operator is awful.
3:47:33
You mean Roman? He's not given very, I mean,
3:47:36
he's not given great dialogue to work with.
3:47:38
But yeah, with the rollback working life, he's like, oh,
3:47:43
you're taking me out of the tragedy of this, of this science
3:47:45
fiction historical event. I.
3:47:47
Think I think he's fantastic when he gets the drop of water
3:47:49
drops on his face at the end. I think that's a really powerful
3:47:53
scene. Yeah, maybe.
3:47:57
And there's also just a few bits there's.
3:47:58
I hope you know what I mean by this.
3:47:59
When they're introducing all of the crew members at the start,
3:48:02
there's quite a bit of actors using the space, but always
3:48:06
winds me up, People running around and all grabbing,
3:48:11
grabbing to only actors acting. Ever grab two sides of a little
3:48:17
set of steps and throw themselves down it?
3:48:19
I I refuse. You didn't get enough of that.
3:48:21
You know you get it in slow motion towards the end, don't
3:48:23
you? As they're grabbing things.
3:48:25
I refuse to believe everyone has ever skipped down a set like
3:48:28
that, and certainly no one ever actually runs into a room
3:48:30
looking across as they move parallel to the looking they go.
3:48:34
People here or Mars? No, no, it's just.
3:48:36
Fire to live my life like that, you know?
3:48:39
Just a just a bit too much acting going on at.
3:48:44
How dare they acting doctor so? So I was it's it's a balance.
3:48:48
There are things I like, there are things I don't like, but I
3:48:49
think on balance I'm not putting it through.
3:48:53
Well, unfortunately two were putting it through.
3:48:55
So it's staying in. But I'm guessing when we get to,
3:48:59
because we've we've done now all eight stories after four hours
3:49:02
we have only got rid of one, believe it or not, which is
3:49:06
Planet of the Dead. But I think lots of stories that
3:49:09
we've put through have got some voices of dissent, so possibly
3:49:13
when we now get to round two. Show our folks should only be
3:49:17
about 7 minutes long. Yeah, I do.
3:49:19
Not even that. Joe, cue your.
3:49:22
Creepy cap. Music.
3:49:24
Captain Music, let's go. Spinning oh, power of the Doctor
3:49:28
comes up against Oh no. Can I change it?
3:49:34
I. Do No, no.
3:49:36
No. Wild blue Yonder.
3:49:40
So I'm going first, and I'm going wild blue Yonder because I
3:49:43
think it's exemplary and there's just too many.
3:49:47
Power is fun, but by Christ, it's flawed.
3:49:51
I'm going to say Power of the Doctor.
3:49:53
Not just because I love the chimney era, but because I just
3:49:56
had the best time when it was broadcast.
3:49:58
I just loved every second of it. I'm going Power of the Doctor on
3:50:04
the litmus test of which would I rather sit down and watch right
3:50:07
now. I would rather sit down and
3:50:09
watch The Power of the Doctor. Also Maverty so.
3:50:14
It's a great joke. It's sorry the time we do it.
3:50:18
The. Funny when I do it's funny when
3:50:20
I do it. Okay.
3:50:23
So we've lost while. How the fuck?
3:50:25
Is Sea Devil still in and While Blue Yonder?
3:50:28
Is gone. I tried to tell James.
3:50:30
It's all James's fault. Yeah, let's blame James.
3:50:34
He's the new champion of the damned down there.
3:50:37
But the second round brings up the Star Beast against the power
3:50:44
of the Doctor. The Doctor.
3:50:47
Oh. No, I'm going to go star Beast
3:50:49
on this one. Oh, James, you go first.
3:50:53
Not James. Sorry, Rob.
3:50:54
You go first, James. I'm going to star based.
3:51:04
Yeah, yeah, I do. I love paradise.
3:51:07
But I can't sit here and say it's actually a better piece of
3:51:10
television. Than the star based.
3:51:13
Dylan Reece will be, too. Good if we've achieved nothing
3:51:17
else this evening. Exactly.
3:51:18
That was our whole mission for the night.
3:51:20
Sorry, darling. So power of the Doctor is the
3:51:23
next to go, right? So spinning the wheel.
3:51:26
So we have Legend of the Sea Devils.
3:51:29
About time that came up against Day of the Doctor.
3:51:34
I wonder how this one will go. Well, I think the Doctor may win
3:51:39
this one. But you think so we ought to go
3:51:41
round, Joe. Day of the Doctor.
3:51:44
I'm going Day of the Doctor I. Think in terms of fun.
3:51:48
I have to go for legend, David. I nearly had a fit Legend of Sea
3:51:56
Devils. You know, we got fifth
3:51:58
positions. We got four left.
3:52:00
Waltz of Mars Day, Star Beast and The Giggle.
3:52:04
We have the Star Beast against the Giggle.
3:52:11
I'm going to I think the Star Beast is a is a better episode.
3:52:16
I'm going for Giggle. I love the Star Beast, but I
3:52:19
think the Giggle has more to it. Yes, I'd agree.
3:52:23
It's for the same reasons I'd go for the giggle.
3:52:25
It's got better set pieces in the imagery, so I'm going for
3:52:28
the giggle. So the Star Beast falls.
3:52:31
Still agree to have been avenged.
3:52:35
We've not, because the Giggle's still in there.
3:52:37
So we have got Waters of Mars, Dave, the Doctor and The Giggle.
3:52:42
Oh, that's three, three heavyweights there.
3:52:45
And we have Waters of Mars. Bear in mind, we had two voices
3:52:48
of a bit of concern about Waters of Mars against the Giggle.
3:52:53
Oh, I think the giggle is better than Waters of Mars.
3:52:56
I know that's won't be a a few held by everyone, but.
3:53:01
Michael. I was a dissenting vote against
3:53:03
Waters of Mars, so it's the giggle for me.
3:53:06
Waters of Mars. I'm going to go with the Giggle
3:53:12
So Warts of Mars Fall. So we are left with in our
3:53:16
special day of the Doctor and the Giggle.
3:53:21
What an interesting two to end up with.
3:53:24
What is the giggle for me? It's the giggle for me.
3:53:29
It's the Day of the Doctor for me.
3:53:31
And it's The Day of the Doctor by Generation Ending.
3:53:37
We. Can't leave it there.
3:53:39
We have to find a winner, so someone.
3:53:42
Didn't we? Didn't we put it through to the
3:53:44
next episode last time when it was a stalemate?
3:53:48
Is anyone wishing to compromise on that?
3:53:51
Nope. The next episode has got Fraser
3:53:53
Gregory on it, so oh. Interesting.
3:53:56
He loves stay at the Doctor. Is there is there no no
3:54:00
movements on this? One not backing down Dave the
3:54:03
Doctor is is a is a is a better pace and more sophisticated
3:54:08
script and has got too many punch in the air moments for me.
3:54:11
And the giggle is, as I said, 2/3 great and and doesn't
3:54:14
deliver on that promise. Dave the Doctor just has too
3:54:17
many things that irritate me. I think it is good, but it does
3:54:20
irritate me a lot and I love the giggle.
3:54:22
I'm kind of the same with you, Joe, who thought I'd be agreeing
3:54:25
with you on this. But yeah, right.
3:54:27
It really is mad. But yeah, and Michael Milton,
3:54:30
the lady's not for turning. No, I think the giggle is
3:54:33
superlative. Main Run Dr. Who.
3:54:35
But The Day of the Doctor is possibly the best Doctor Who TV
3:54:39
story ever. It stands above.
3:54:41
OK, so listeners, you are going to have to wait on 10 talks.
3:54:45
We cannot find a solution to this impasse.
3:54:49
It's like the Daleks and the Valens all over again.
3:54:52
No more. We need Fraser Gregory to come
3:54:54
in and blow us all up. No, so.
3:54:56
It'd be interesting. Should be interesting, so we
3:54:59
will take those two through to the next.
3:55:01
So for now, they're like a joint win, yeah.
3:55:04
They are by by by generation. We could actually be very
3:55:07
generous and saying because they are specials, should we put both
3:55:10
of them through to the final? I think that would probably be
3:55:13
fair. Or wouldn't it?
3:55:14
Let's have joint winners for once just because these are
3:55:17
special stories. We're.
3:55:18
Such stubborn bastards. Exactly.
3:55:22
So Giggle and Day of the Doctor are both going to go through to
3:55:26
our Grand Final whenever that may be, probably sometime next
3:55:29
year. Let's not treat this with too
3:55:31
much manatee. Oh my goodness, you've been
3:55:35
waiting for that one. So that's why. 4 hours and 10
3:55:39
minutes for that joke. Thank you.
3:55:42
So next episode, believe it or not, if you've managed to stay
3:55:45
with us for four hours, we are doing season 20, our first
3:55:49
venture into the beige world, Peter Davison.
3:55:54
So before we go, I would just like to add my birthday wishes
3:56:00
to Joe that we did at the beginning of the show and just
3:56:04
say, Joe, I have been reading your reviews and listening to
3:56:08
your podcast for many years before I summoned up the courage
3:56:11
to do my first hamster commentary with you on
3:56:13
extremists. And since then I've had the
3:56:17
absolute privilege of getting to know you as a person, not just a
3:56:20
podcaster, and it's been an absolute honour.
3:56:23
You're a fantastic person. I was always thinking about
3:56:26
other people and your volunteering work on loan
3:56:29
stands, testament to that. We now chat far too much, argue
3:56:32
far too much, but I truly and honestly respect and cherish
3:56:36
your friendship. So happy birthday.
3:56:39
Thank you very much. This still feels indulgent.
3:56:41
Isn't a month's time. So what, Michael?
3:56:46
My thoughts are with you at this difficult time, but.
3:56:50
The only difficult time I'm experiencing right now is Dana
3:56:53
the Doctor going through All Right and James.
3:56:57
Yeah. Well I I would like to say that
3:57:00
you, I mean this podcast has given me so much pleasure,
3:57:05
particularly in the last year. As you know I've been writing a
3:57:07
lot of music and sometimes that's just a pretty mundane
3:57:09
task of copying notes from paper onto a computer and you pretty
3:57:14
much kept me sane this, this, this last year with your
3:57:17
podcast. But I'm I'm just, I'm so full of
3:57:21
admiration that you've created this community which is able to
3:57:24
disagree well and frankly B, pretty fucking rude to each
3:57:28
other without actually falling out.
3:57:32
You know, because I think that in the past Doctor Who fans have
3:57:35
disagreed badly and I'm I'm sure that kind of toxic thing doesn't
3:57:37
happen anymore. But you've created a community
3:57:40
where I think we can all enjoy our differences and and enjoy
3:57:42
disagreeing and having different opinions whilst all basically
3:57:47
having you know a mutual respect for each other and and and
3:57:51
you've spearheaded that. So very happy birthday to you
3:57:54
and many more of them. Except Fraser Gregory.
3:57:56
He's just fucking mad, isn't he? Fantastic.
3:58:01
And on that note, we just have to thank our guests.
3:58:03
Michael and James thank you for both returning.
3:58:06
You have both been amazing guests as we knew you would be
3:58:09
on this special show. I just.
3:58:12
Want to say before we go? You know when you two wake up
3:58:15
tomorrow morning and you're really tired because it's now
3:58:18
currently 11:15 at night and you're going to bed after this
3:58:21
long? It's only because you gave such
3:58:23
detailed and brilliant arguments in.
3:58:26
This. Episode that we're finishing
3:58:27
this late, all right. So basically you're saying
3:58:29
you've only got your cells supplied?
3:58:30
That's right. So thank you everyone for
3:58:34
listening. Hopefully you're still with us
3:58:36
and hopefully you'll come back in a fortnight's time for Season
3:58:39
20. And until next time, Joe.
3:58:42
Keep listening. Goodnight.
3:58:47
Tuna Music. Happy birthday to you.
3:58:53
Happy birthday to you. May all your wishes come true.
3:59:00
Happy, happy, happy. Happy birthday.
3:59:02
Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you.
3:59:09
May all your wishes come true.