Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Husband murders wife to 'date other people?' Son murders mom when she says 'turn down Jimi Hendrix'

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Husband murders wife to 'date other people?' Son murders mom when she says 'turn down Jimi Hendrix' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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1:44
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one. Two
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Speaker 1: year old Brian Peck initially called one and set his mom.
1:53
Speaker 1: Seventy six year old Gale Peck disappeared while walking her dog.
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Speaker 1: He was his mother's only child and he lived in
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Speaker 1: her basement. After being confronted with evidence by police, prosecutors
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Speaker 1: say Peck admitted, I put her in the bathtub and
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Speaker 1: hacked her up. He's now accused of killing her. The
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Speaker 1: dependant said that on Wednesday, he drove the bags that
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Speaker 1: contained her head and arms to Montrose Harbor and threw
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Speaker 1: those bags into Lake Michigan. Police divers searched Lake Michigan
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Speaker 1: near Foster looking for the cut up remains of seventy
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Speaker 1: six year old Gayl Peck. The dependant said that his
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Speaker 1: mother was furious that he was playing his music so loud.
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Speaker 1: Did a man murder his mother because she told him
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Speaker 1: his music was too loud. Now, granted it was Jimi Hendrix,
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Speaker 1: so I understand why he needed it cranked up, But
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Speaker 1: murdering your mom when she says your music is too loud?
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Speaker 1: Joining me you right now is Alan Duke. Dr Daniel
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Speaker 1: Bober forensics psychiatrist and Joseph's got Morgan forensics expert. Alan,
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Speaker 1: what happened? Did I miss something? Five year old Brian
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Speaker 1: Peck lived with his mom in Elgin, Illinois, and uh,
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Speaker 1: she went missing and there was a big mystery about it,
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Speaker 1: and so they were looking all over the place for her.
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Speaker 1: He said that she just went out walking the dog.
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Speaker 1: The dog came back and no mom. Well, the investigation ensued.
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Speaker 1: They found security camera video and everything, and they figured
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Speaker 1: out exactly what happened, Nancy, and you will not believe
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Speaker 1: what they figured out. Well, let me ask you a question.
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Speaker 1: How did they figured it out from security cameras? I
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Speaker 1: don't understand if the dog was out wandering around by itself,
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Speaker 1: how did they see anything on surveillance video that helped
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Speaker 1: them figure it out other than the dog walking story
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Speaker 1: was a lie. Well, they figured something was weird because
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Speaker 1: this guy, Brian Peck, he's fifty five, His mom is
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Speaker 1: uh seventies six, and they just didn't think it added up.
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Speaker 1: So they started looking at bank account records, and they
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Speaker 1: started looking uh following his footsteps, and they found where
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Speaker 1: he went to a store and purchased luggage. Well, he
4:03
Speaker 1: wasn't going to make a trip and they didn't know
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Speaker 1: where that luggage was. So what did he buy luggage
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Speaker 1: for in the hours after his mother disappeared? Wow, I'm
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Speaker 1: just having a hard time taking it in, Dr Daniel Bober. Boy,
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Speaker 1: do I need a shrink on this? Um? I'm just
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Speaker 1: trying to get my mind around it. Angered after he
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Speaker 1: was told he was playing his Jimmy Hendrix music too loudly. Allegedly,
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Speaker 1: this guy kills his mom, dismembers her body, and disposes
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Speaker 1: of her remains along Chicago's Latefront and he did it
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Speaker 1: over two days. He put the body parts in bags
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Speaker 1: and nearly purchased luggage. Okay, Um, so I'm sure they've
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Speaker 1: got it on surveillance video of him buying the luggage.
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Speaker 1: They always do. Here's my first question, Dr Daniel Bober
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Speaker 1: And men people accuse me of being a an hater.
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Speaker 1: That is not true. I just hate men that commit felonies. Okay, Now,
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Speaker 1: why is it you never read about a girl or
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Speaker 1: a woman murdering her mother because his music her music
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Speaker 1: was too loud, or going off because the Christmas tree
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Speaker 1: blinked wrong? I mean, what is it about men? I
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Speaker 1: mean what? What? No offense? Because I know you are
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Speaker 1: one of the species. But what is wrong with MENC what?
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Speaker 1: Men are more aggressive by nature? Mor testosterone? But there's
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Speaker 1: already a red flag in this case. Wait, are you
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Speaker 1: somehow blaming this on their pps? Okay? Is that what
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Speaker 1: I'm hearing is about the testosterone? Because I and the
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Speaker 1: rest of the women in this country don't agree. It's
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Speaker 1: something about impulse control. Yeah. I want to mow down
5:55
Speaker 1: a lot of people on the highway, but I don't
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Speaker 1: do it. I don't even shoot a bird for pizza
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Speaker 1: because it's you are watching. I control it. I suppress
6:03
Speaker 1: my demons. Why can't man do it? What's wrong with them?
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Speaker 1: And another thing? Why can't they even pick up their underwear?
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Speaker 1: That's another good question, but I'll deal with that later.
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Speaker 1: Let's deal with the homicide first, Nancy, There's there's clearly
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Speaker 1: a red flag in this case of fifty five year
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Speaker 1: old male living with his mother, his seventy six year
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Speaker 1: old mothers. So he's either there for two reasons, either
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Speaker 1: to take care of her, which it doesn't seem like
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Speaker 1: that's clearly not the reason, and or he's suffering from
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Speaker 1: some form of chronic mental illness and social drift where
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Speaker 1: he was never able out to get out of the
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Speaker 1: home and build his own life and live independently. So
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Speaker 1: that to me is already a red flag. Um. But
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Speaker 1: you know clearly the music playing loud is not the problem.
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Speaker 1: It's the symptom of the problem, and the problem is
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Speaker 1: most likely some form of chronic mental illness or and
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Speaker 1: or substance use which creates a situation where he has
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Speaker 1: no impulse control, as you stated, low frustration tolerance, and
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Speaker 1: he just went off and he did it and then
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Speaker 1: tried to conceal the I want to go through how
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Speaker 1: the whole thing went down, but first to you, Joseph Scott, Morrigan,
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Speaker 1: death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I mean just the thought, I'm afraid to
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Speaker 1: even hug my mom too tight because she's so frail
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Speaker 1: and ps I live with my mother, so I don't
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Speaker 1: know what that says about me bober but um to think,
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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you get the frame of mind
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Speaker 1: that you kill your mom, which is very rare crime
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Speaker 1: matri side a slang term for it or parenticide also
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Speaker 1: slang um. And then you have the mindset that you
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Speaker 1: can dismember her body, put your mom's body parts. I
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Speaker 1: I just don't even want to even say those words
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Speaker 1: in the same sentence into plastic bags and then into
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Speaker 1: newly purchase luggage. Help me out, Joe Scott. Dismemberment of
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Speaker 1: a human body is not an easy thing to accomplish, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: particularly when you're you've never done it, and then you're
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Speaker 1: standing there over the remains of your mother, attempting to
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Speaker 1: do this with rudimentary tools by surgical standards. From what
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Speaker 1: I'm understanding, Uh, this fellow, their characterizement as a hand saw,
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Speaker 1: Now that can be any number of things. You know.
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Speaker 1: The first thing I think most people think of is
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Speaker 1: like a carpentry saw. Uh. And also uh, the word
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Speaker 1: hatchett has been has been used as well. You're talking
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Speaker 1: about someone that would utilize these hand tools essentially to
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Speaker 1: pull apart their own mother and to dispose of the
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Speaker 1: remains in in bags placed them and luggage, this sort
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Speaker 1: of thing. It's not an easy undertaking when you have
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Speaker 1: no experience at butchrank. It takes time. You have to
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Speaker 1: have a location that's isolated, and then from a forensic standpoint,
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Speaker 1: you have to be able to clean up. This is
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Speaker 1: going to create an incredible mess. I can only imagine
9:03
Speaker 1: that the police department. Yeah, it's going to have what
9:08
Speaker 1: we referred to as an evidence rich environment, particularly with blood,
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Speaker 1: blood transfer, blood spatter, all of these sorts of things. So, uh,
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Speaker 1: it's very difficult in order to facilitate this. And then
9:20
Speaker 1: you know, the doctor could could address this more. But
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Speaker 1: this kind of overarching psychological theme of having to take
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Speaker 1: apart this person that has taken care of you throughout
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Speaker 1: your life and um, and you can just kind of
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Speaker 1: mechanically go about doing it. This guy, he planned this,
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Speaker 1: He went out, he purchased these items in order to
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Speaker 1: stow her body. There's even one report that he tried
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Speaker 1: to fit her into the refrigerator, which I found very curious, um,
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Speaker 1: in order to store in there. And he disabled the
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Speaker 1: refrigerator because he was using a hatchet, uh to take
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Speaker 1: the shells out of refrigerator. Wait a minute, Joe Scott.
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Speaker 1: Did you just say he tried to remove the shelves
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Speaker 1: of the refrigerator so he could fit his mother in there. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: And that's that's disturbing. Why would you want to put
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Speaker 1: your mother in the refrigerator? Why would you buy bags?
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Speaker 1: At the same time, I'm thinking thinking that more than
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Speaker 1: likely he had planned this to a great degree. Uh,
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Speaker 1: And in order to to try to put the police off.
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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe he was trying to slow down the rated
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Speaker 1: decomposition by putting her in the refrigerator and then masking this.
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Speaker 1: I've seen this in other cases involving dismemberment. Uh, And
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Speaker 1: so no one really knows. It's like he was organized
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Speaker 1: on one side, but then when he gets into the
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Speaker 1: middle of this thing, it becomes very frenetic and disorganized. Wow,
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Speaker 1: that was quite a mouthful, Joseph skyd Morgan, I'm just
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Speaker 1: trying to digest the whole thing. To Dr Daniel Bober
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Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrists, I'm thinking about what Joseph got Morgan is
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Speaker 1: telling me, and the time and the energy and the planning,
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Speaker 1: uh that this guy went through. Whether or not the
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Speaker 1: initial shooting of his mom or the killing of his
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Speaker 1: mom occurred on impulse. Then there was the cover up,
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Speaker 1: the dismembering of the body, the cleaning up, the trying
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Speaker 1: to change the refrigerator shelves, the hours and hours it
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Speaker 1: would take to dismember the body, going and getting plastic bags,
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Speaker 1: going and getting suitcases. I mean, how does the human
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Speaker 1: mind work during this very long and arduous process. Dr Bober. Essentially, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: you essentially have to disconnect yourself from your emotions. It's
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Speaker 1: really the only way you can operate in this type
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Speaker 1: of the situation. You're basically on automatic pilot. We don't
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Speaker 1: know the history of this individual in terms of what
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Speaker 1: his relationship was like with his mother, but we know
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Speaker 1: that he was living with her, so there had to
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Speaker 1: be some kind of an intimate close relationship. But the
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Speaker 1: only way to be able to do something like that
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Speaker 1: is to completely cut yourself off emotionally, uh and focus
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Speaker 1: on the task at hand. Whether this was a crime
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Speaker 1: of impulse, or maybe it was something that was brewing
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Speaker 1: in his mind for a long time and this was
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Speaker 1: something that just sort of put him over the top,
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Speaker 1: It is hard to know, but he's certainly tried to
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Speaker 1: uh spend a lot of time concealing it. After the fact, Ellen,
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Speaker 1: do what do we know about him specifically and about
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Speaker 1: his relationship with his mother if anything. Oh, we do
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Speaker 1: know some things that are coming out now in the documents.
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Speaker 1: Not only does he have six felony convictions, that's aggravated battery,
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Speaker 1: identity theft, computer fraud, possession of a stolen vehicle, theft
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Speaker 1: by deception, but he also was he spent a hundred
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Speaker 1: days in jail in that was last year for punching
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Speaker 1: his mother in her face, trying to choke her. He
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Speaker 1: was locked up for a hundred day. He's given two
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Speaker 1: years probation. When she visited him in jail, she told
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Speaker 1: him quote that he crossed the line when he became
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Speaker 1: violent with me, that he was no longer my son,
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Speaker 1: and I never want to have contact with him again.
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Speaker 1: That's according to new court documents. So she tried. I'm
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Speaker 1: not sure what happened after that, but she apparently tried.
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Speaker 1: Poor thing. I feel so bad for her. I'm looking
13:23
Speaker 1: at a picture of her smiling, and I also learned
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Speaker 1: that she had spinal fusion surgery, and so she was
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Speaker 1: even more frail than she looked. Her body parts were
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Speaker 1: found in Duffel bags by a fisherman and divers at
13:43
Speaker 1: a Lincoln part lagoon. So far, we've only found the
13:46
Speaker 1: pants and the torso of two of the legs. Apparently
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Speaker 1: part of the body was disposed at Montrose Harbor, where
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Speaker 1: police were investigating on Tuesday. We know that he played
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Speaker 1: guilty to a domestic battery and got a jail sentence.
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Speaker 1: That was when he threatened to kill his mother. They
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Speaker 1: had shared that home together in oak Brook for some time,
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Speaker 1: but according to Alan Duke and his investigation, she had asked,
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Speaker 1: basically told him to get out after the last time
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Speaker 1: he attacked her. I wonder how everything went sideways. I
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Speaker 1: know this, Dr Bober, and I've only learned this. You know,
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Speaker 1: in the last ten years. There is nothing like a
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Speaker 1: mother's love. You know, you think you're in love, you
14:36
Speaker 1: think you've met Mr Wright, you think you love this
14:38
Speaker 1: and that when you have children. It is the closest
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Speaker 1: thing I've ever seen to unconditional love. Ever. So she
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Speaker 1: took him back, Dr Bober, She let him move back in.
14:50
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, Nancy. There's a book by
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Speaker 1: Eric from That's called the Art of Loving, and in
14:55
Speaker 1: that book he says that the only truest form of
14:57
Speaker 1: love is a love between a mother and a child.
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Speaker 1: So that is very true. And I think the maternal
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Speaker 1: instincts are so strong to protect that even in the
15:06
Speaker 1: face of him being just absolutely horrific and predatory to her,
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Speaker 1: she still took him back almost in a in a sense,
15:13
Speaker 1: a type of domestic violence relationship, where you keep making
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Speaker 1: excuses for the person and you keep taking them back.
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Speaker 1: What we know right now is is this very loving
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Speaker 1: mother is dead. We know that he lied about where
15:32
Speaker 1: she was, that she had gone out to want the
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Speaker 1: dog and never came back. Brian Peck is being held
15:39
Speaker 1: right now, held without bail. And if you take a
15:43
Speaker 1: look at this mom, she's just the the cutest little thing.
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Speaker 1: A seventy six year old mother. Gail Pick no longer
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Speaker 1: with us, Alan do. It wasn't just threats and a
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Speaker 1: physical confrontation. There was also the siphoning and the using
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Speaker 1: of all the money she had saved up over time.
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Speaker 1: What do we know, Nancy Brian Peck was living off
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Speaker 1: his seventies six year old mother. Police say that he
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Speaker 1: lived in the basement of her Elgin, Illinois house, but
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Speaker 1: he was not her major caregiver. As Dr Bober pointed,
16:22
Speaker 1: out there are only two reasons for fifty five year
16:24
Speaker 1: old man to be living with his mom. One he's
16:28
Speaker 1: a freeloader who won't take care of himself. The other
16:31
Speaker 1: is he's there to take care of her. But police
16:34
Speaker 1: say Brian Peck was not a major caregiver of his mom,
16:38
Speaker 1: so that leads the freeloader theory. In fact, prosecutor Maria
16:43
Speaker 1: McCarthy says that Peck transferred four thousand dollars from his
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Speaker 1: mother's savings account to her checking account after she disappeared,
16:52
Speaker 1: and he apparently used that money to buy the luggage
16:55
Speaker 1: in which he stuffed her dismembered body in and tossed
16:59
Speaker 1: it into a lagoon. And in court Peck told the
17:04
Speaker 1: judge that he had no money now, and so he
17:07
Speaker 1: requested a public defender be appointed as his lawyer. And
17:12
Speaker 1: again he is not given a bond, so he's in jail.
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Speaker 1: Prosecutor McCarthy also said Peck, who was his mother's only child,
17:21
Speaker 1: was a failed businessman. She said he operated a financial
17:26
Speaker 1: business until about two years ago. Now let's hear more
17:29
Speaker 1: of what the prosecutor told reporters about Peck and what
17:33
Speaker 1: he told investigators. The defendant said that his mother was
17:37
Speaker 1: furious that he was playing his music so loud. The
17:41
Speaker 1: defendant said that the victim told him that she wanted
17:43
Speaker 1: him to leave. The defendants said that he knocked the
17:45
Speaker 1: victim's leg out from under her and stamped on her
17:48
Speaker 1: head and neck. The defendant is six ft one and
17:52
Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty pounds and the victim was five
17:55
Speaker 1: ft four hundred and forty pounds. The defendants said that
17:59
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, he drove the bags that contained her head
18:02
Speaker 1: and arms to Montrose Harbor and throw those bags into
18:06
Speaker 1: Lake Michigan. The defendant said that the next day he
18:10
Speaker 1: purchased the suitcase and the double bag, put her torso
18:14
Speaker 1: and legs into those items, drove down to Chicago, and
18:18
Speaker 1: threw them into the water near Diversity Harbor. I passed
18:21
Speaker 1: records from the Expressway corroborate the defendant's movements. Let's also
18:26
Speaker 1: listened to this short statement that the Elgin Police chief
18:30
Speaker 1: put on the police Facebook page. After the Sun was arrested.
18:36
Speaker 1: On Friday afternoon, Ryan Pack reported to the Elgin Police
18:38
Speaker 1: Department that his mother went for a walk and never
18:40
Speaker 1: returned home. This started a massive search for Gail Pack
18:45
Speaker 1: that was the Elgin Police Department run foot in an
18:48
Speaker 1: a t VS. Members of the community came up to
18:51
Speaker 1: assist us. We also had assets in the air, from
18:53
Speaker 1: drones to helicopters. Or the course of the next few days,
18:57
Speaker 1: detectives determined that Brian was ultimately responsible for killing his
19:02
Speaker 1: mother and discarding her body, and that the remains found
19:06
Speaker 1: in the Chicago lagoon where that of Gail Pack. Brian
19:10
Speaker 1: Peck will be in bancol this morning charts with first
19:13
Speaker 1: degree murder, premeditation, first degree murder, great probability of bodily harm,
19:20
Speaker 1: and concealment of a homicide. It was clear custom the
19:23
Speaker 1: very beginning and talking with family and friends that Gail
19:25
Speaker 1: Pack was loved by all that she knew remembers. The
19:28
Speaker 1: Elgi Police Department and the Elga community sent our thoughts
19:31
Speaker 1: and prayers to the family of Gail Pack. And now
19:35
Speaker 1: we had across the country and the story of a
19:38
Speaker 1: man who allegedly murders his wife because he quote wants
19:42
Speaker 1: to date other people. But before I take you there,
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21:31
Speaker 1: today on Sirius x M one thirty two. Did a
21:36
Speaker 1: stock trader murder his wife so he could quote date
21:41
Speaker 1: other people? Okay, let that sink in just a moment.
21:45
Speaker 1: Did a stockbroker murder his wife so he could date
21:51
Speaker 1: other people? You know what, just when you think you've
21:54
Speaker 1: heard it all, you find out you haven't, and not
21:57
Speaker 1: in a good way. I'm talking about forty four year
22:00
Speaker 1: old Roderick Kvelan who allegedly killed his wife. She has
22:06
Speaker 1: found her body has found anyway in the bathtub, despite
22:10
Speaker 1: having dry clothes on. When police arrived to their posh apartment,
22:17
Speaker 1: they find her with dry clothes on, but dead in
22:19
Speaker 1: the bathtub. And now a motive emerges. I'm Nancy Grace.
22:24
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. Straight
22:26
Speaker 1: out to Larry Mayor, Crime Stories investigative reporter joining me
22:31
Speaker 1: along with Emmy Award winning reporter Art Harris and psychologist
22:36
Speaker 1: Dr Chlobe Carmichael. Larry, what happened? How did she end
22:40
Speaker 1: up dead in the bathtub but with dry clothes on?
22:45
Speaker 1: Police say that rodkvald has changed his story about what
22:50
Speaker 1: happened on the day that his wife Shelley downashefs he
22:53
Speaker 1: died now. According to one newspaper account, a law enforcement
22:57
Speaker 1: source says this case I was like uh an episode
23:02
Speaker 1: of the show Law and Order, in that Copeland who
23:06
Speaker 1: was a failed stockbroker and was trying to make a
23:09
Speaker 1: living playing back Gavin. Okay, wait wait wait wait wait
23:12
Speaker 1: wait okay, right there, you know Ellen d cree you there? Yes,
23:19
Speaker 1: I am allend. If my husband marched in and said
23:24
Speaker 1: that he was getting rid of his business so he
23:27
Speaker 1: could be a professional backgammon player, I would change the
23:31
Speaker 1: locks so fast his head would spin. Okay, did I
23:37
Speaker 1: hear that right, Larry Mayor? That he gave up being
23:41
Speaker 1: a stockbroker to be a professional backgammon player. That's true.
23:44
Speaker 1: He had also given up on the marriage. He had
23:47
Speaker 1: actually moved out of the family apartment on the Upper
23:51
Speaker 1: West Side of New York and moved across the hall
23:53
Speaker 1: into another apartment. That divorce had already started, and a
23:59
Speaker 1: lawyer who was involved in it has characterized it as
24:02
Speaker 1: a bitter proceeding that involved a lot of a lot
24:06
Speaker 1: of inflammatory back and forth over custody of the couple's
24:09
Speaker 1: two children. Tell me about the children. Whoa WHOA? Whoa what?
24:12
Speaker 1: One thing at a time, Okay, tell me about the children.
24:16
Speaker 1: The children were both young at the at the time.
24:19
Speaker 1: They were nine and twelve, a daughter and a son.
24:23
Speaker 1: And uh. The nine year old daughter found her mother's
24:27
Speaker 1: body in the bathtub and ran or called her father,
24:33
Speaker 1: who came across the hall to retreat. Okay, hold on,
24:37
Speaker 1: let me. I'm trying to take it. Pick it apart
24:39
Speaker 1: by what you're saying. Dr Chlobe Carmichael. It's about enough
24:43
Speaker 1: when you lose a parent. I mean, I lost my
24:46
Speaker 1: father just recently and it I'm still upset about it.
24:53
Speaker 1: But this nine year old little girl finds her mother's
24:56
Speaker 1: dead body. I mean, she's never going to forget that. No,
25:00
Speaker 1: absolutely not. The horror and the shock, it's just hard
25:04
Speaker 1: to even fathom. And then when we layer on top
25:07
Speaker 1: of that that her father, who is supposed to be
25:10
Speaker 1: her protector at the protector of her and of her mother,
25:14
Speaker 1: could possibly have actually been responsible. It can be really
25:18
Speaker 1: morally disorienting, to say the least. I just I just
25:22
Speaker 1: can't imagine going through life that way, remembering that moment
25:25
Speaker 1: that you walk in and you see your mom did no.
25:29
Speaker 1: I mean, at first, you know, the little girl might
25:32
Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, it was a game or
25:34
Speaker 1: something like that, and probably, you know, slowly she'd start
25:38
Speaker 1: to realize that something was was really terribly wrong. You're right,
25:42
Speaker 1: at Nancy. It would absolutely be a lifelong issue where
25:46
Speaker 1: she would probably need a lot of therapy. So aren't
25:49
Speaker 1: what what do you know? Aunt Harris with me Emmy
25:52
Speaker 1: Award winning journalists. Is it true that the wife, even
25:57
Speaker 1: in those divorcing her. Why not just let the divorce
26:00
Speaker 1: run its course? Art Harris and love wife was so
26:03
Speaker 1: hampered by having an ex wife he had to kill her.
26:06
Speaker 1: He was under a TikTok uh deadline because she was
26:10
Speaker 1: going to a lawyer the next day to cut him
26:14
Speaker 1: out of her will. That would have meant that the
26:17
Speaker 1: several million dollars on the table that he is scheduled
26:21
Speaker 1: to inherit, uh, you know, was going to be gone.
26:27
Speaker 1: So wait a minute, Art Art Art Art, you're married, right?
26:33
Speaker 1: I am, at least last time I checked Massy. Now,
26:35
Speaker 1: what man in his right mind would think that after
26:40
Speaker 1: he asked for a divorce he gets to have the
26:43
Speaker 1: wife's inheritance. I mean, he's the one that wants to
26:46
Speaker 1: date other people, He's the one that moves out. He's
26:49
Speaker 1: the one that wants to divorce, so he wants the
26:51
Speaker 1: divorce and he wants half of her estate when she dies. Yeah,
26:55
Speaker 1: and are you my understanding correctly? Art, he wants to
26:58
Speaker 1: have his backgammon and eat it too, and you know
27:01
Speaker 1: he's a backgammon player by by a choice. And uh,
27:05
Speaker 1: you know, obviously he was running short on cash and
27:08
Speaker 1: and did not did not want to be cut out
27:11
Speaker 1: of anything. So he sounds like a freeloader to me
27:15
Speaker 1: because Alan, Alan, come on, the man quits his job,
27:18
Speaker 1: he says he'd rather play backgammon, moves into a very
27:22
Speaker 1: expensive apartment across the hall from their current apartment, wants
27:26
Speaker 1: a divorce because he wants to quote date other people,
27:29
Speaker 1: and wants half of her estate when she dies. I mean,
27:33
Speaker 1: he's clearly already mooching off her like nobody's business. And
27:36
Speaker 1: now she's dead in the bathtub with dry clothes on. Alan. Yeah,
27:40
Speaker 1: I think an extreme midlife crisis going on here. I
27:43
Speaker 1: I can't understand it. But but he was very good
27:46
Speaker 1: at backgammon. That's that's to his credit. You know what.
27:48
Speaker 1: I don't think this is the time for joking, Alan Dee.
27:51
Speaker 1: Although I appreciate your sardonic sense of humor at all times.
27:55
Speaker 1: But zip it? Okay, back to you, Larry. What else
27:59
Speaker 1: do we know? The problems started, uh, almost immediately after
28:05
Speaker 1: Shelley Danishowski's death when her parents refused to allow an autopsy.
28:11
Speaker 1: Now they are Orthodox Jewish and as a result, the
28:14
Speaker 1: faith does not permit autopsy. It took a investigators. Let
28:18
Speaker 1: me understand something. Hold on just a moment, hold on,
28:21
Speaker 1: art why is that? Why can't there be an autopsy?
28:24
Speaker 1: As a bad jew who has done a little bit, uh,
28:28
Speaker 1: you know, a studying way back. It goes back to
28:30
Speaker 1: ancient times when it was not believed you should cut
28:34
Speaker 1: on a body after after a death. And it's it's
28:38
Speaker 1: an old Orthodox tradition, as is the thing that she
28:43
Speaker 1: was supposed to quote get a Jewish divorce under Orthodox rules. Uh,
28:49
Speaker 1: a wife has to get permission for a divorce. And
28:53
Speaker 1: I think he protested that for quite a while. Well,
28:55
Speaker 1: I thought he was the one that wanted to date
28:57
Speaker 1: other people. Aren't How am I getting my wires crossed? Well?
29:00
Speaker 1: He wanted to have it all. Well wait, wait, wait,
29:03
Speaker 1: I think I understand it. He wants to date other
29:05
Speaker 1: people and stay married and continue sucking the wealth out
29:10
Speaker 1: of her estate like a tick. Is that right? She
29:13
Speaker 1: was very successful as a banker Nancy, and had a mask,
29:17
Speaker 1: apparently a nice nest egg. He didn't want to give
29:19
Speaker 1: that up, but he wanted to play Backgammon two and
29:21
Speaker 1: wanted to be kept, uh, you know, as a kept man.
29:24
Speaker 1: So this is a reverse of the stereotype. Take a
29:29
Speaker 1: look at the picture of Shelley right now, Shelley Denishevski.
29:34
Speaker 1: I think she looks like Reese Witherspoon. Do you see
29:38
Speaker 1: the picture of her with wearing the bangs. She's so
29:42
Speaker 1: cute and so full of life, very pretty, the mother
29:47
Speaker 1: of his children. He wants to stay married to her.
29:50
Speaker 1: Then I thought he wanted to divorce her because he
29:53
Speaker 1: wanted to date other people. So he wants to do
29:55
Speaker 1: other people. She wants to divorce and then lo and
29:58
Speaker 1: behold just before she changes her will. I guess that
30:01
Speaker 1: would have ended his backgammon gaming days. She ends up
30:05
Speaker 1: dead in the bathtub. Now, Larry Mayor, Crime Online investigative reporter,
30:10
Speaker 1: So you were saying that because of her religion, that
30:15
Speaker 1: her parents did not want an autopsy done, So okay,
30:17
Speaker 1: then what happens? Right? It took investigators about three months
30:21
Speaker 1: to convince them that there was evidence suggesting that perhaps
30:25
Speaker 1: foul play was involved, and then that at that point
30:28
Speaker 1: their parents that then the Denishevsky's gave permission for her
30:32
Speaker 1: body to be exhumed and for an autopsy to be performed,
30:37
Speaker 1: and during that autopsy, the coroner found a broken bone
30:40
Speaker 1: in her neck, which suggested to him that the this
30:46
Speaker 1: was a case of murder, not a case of an
30:48
Speaker 1: accidental fall. One doesn't generally break that bone when falling.
30:54
Speaker 1: It's usually a sign of strangulation or some sort of
30:58
Speaker 1: trauma to the throat. Well, it was very convenient to
31:01
Speaker 1: psychologist Dr Chloe Carmichael that when police arrived on the scene,
31:05
Speaker 1: he the husband already had an explanation. He says, quote,
31:10
Speaker 1: she was trying to grab something. A piece of wood
31:13
Speaker 1: broke and she landed in the bathroom bathtub and hit
31:15
Speaker 1: her head. He had it all explained for the police
31:20
Speaker 1: when they got there. Dodgr Chloe, Yes, he certainly did.
31:23
Speaker 1: It sounds like he put a lot of cognitive energy
31:26
Speaker 1: into creating a narrative and he probably understood that an
31:30
Speaker 1: autopsy would be unlikely because obviously he was familiar with
31:34
Speaker 1: this with this culture, and so he was probably feeling
31:38
Speaker 1: very powerful um as if he could really control and
31:41
Speaker 1: totally objectify UM and completely control the situation. I'm so
31:46
Speaker 1: glad that they did ultimately persuade the family to do
31:49
Speaker 1: an autopsy. We'll catch this art Harris. It was right
31:54
Speaker 1: down to the wire because the husband covelin. Uh, this
31:59
Speaker 1: is big going on for some time. Just two months
32:03
Speaker 1: before he was set to inherit her half of her
32:07
Speaker 1: four million dollar fortune that she had amassed from her
32:11
Speaker 1: own hard work. Just two months away from getting her fortune,
32:17
Speaker 1: cops close in on him and he is charged with
32:21
Speaker 1: what what He gets off the train in Scarsdale August
32:24
Speaker 1: to go see his his kids, their kids. Uh, and
32:27
Speaker 1: he's quite surprised that he is arrested. UH. And suddenly
32:31
Speaker 1: with the clock ticking, when I guess the deal that
32:35
Speaker 1: was made if he was not arrested or charged uh,
32:38
Speaker 1: for six years after she died, he would get this money.
32:42
Speaker 1: So two months to go, Nancy, and he was looking
32:45
Speaker 1: at a nice either a hanukah or a Christmas gift,
32:48
Speaker 1: which he did he has not gotten, will not get
32:51
Speaker 1: now wait a minute, wait a minute. Larry Mayor Crime
32:54
Speaker 1: Online investigative reporter. Isn't it true that his then girlfriend
32:59
Speaker 1: go to police and gives them what they need to
33:03
Speaker 1: indict him on charges? She says, he quote made statements
33:07
Speaker 1: implicating himself and his wife's murder. Do we have any
33:11
Speaker 1: idea what he said, Larry, I have not seen, uh
33:16
Speaker 1: an explicit report of what she gave to investigators. But
33:20
Speaker 1: it was one of his girl friends identified perhaps as
33:24
Speaker 1: his chief girlfriend. And prosecutor's sake, Wait a man, Larry White,
33:28
Speaker 1: A minute at White, a minutet, Wait a minute? Did
33:30
Speaker 1: you just say this was his chief girlfriend? Are there
33:33
Speaker 1: other girlfriends there were at the time at the time
33:36
Speaker 1: of his wife's step Did I don't understand that he
33:39
Speaker 1: had multiple girl friends? Dr? Chloe? What woman in her
33:44
Speaker 1: right mind wants a man that a quits his job
33:49
Speaker 1: to live off of his wife's income, b quits a
33:53
Speaker 1: lucrative job in order to be a backgammon player, and
33:59
Speaker 1: then has multiple girlfriends. Why would you want that in
34:02
Speaker 1: your life? Well, Nancy, that's an interesting question. A lot
34:06
Speaker 1: of times, actually, a sociopath can initially come across as
34:10
Speaker 1: very charming and very charismatic. Um. You know, obviously this
34:14
Speaker 1: man was able to convince his wife to marry him
34:17
Speaker 1: in the first place. So I would be curious about
34:20
Speaker 1: what kind of underlying sociopathy is really going on there.
34:25
Speaker 1: And you know, to your point, why would a woman
34:27
Speaker 1: be drawn to that um Again, a man like this
34:30
Speaker 1: oftentimes can come across at first like a knight in
34:33
Speaker 1: shining armor, very dazzling, larger than life. Also, I don't
34:38
Speaker 1: know this woman, the chief girlfriend's personal background, but if
34:42
Speaker 1: this man was presenting himself as a man with considerable
34:45
Speaker 1: financial resources, that might have been very dazzling and almost
34:48
Speaker 1: blinding to her. However, it's certainly to her credit that
34:53
Speaker 1: once she realized that the situation was not what it seemed,
34:56
Speaker 1: that she went right to the authorities. If that's what happened,
34:59
Speaker 1: aren't us What do you know about another scheme he
35:02
Speaker 1: allegedly was involved in, and that was trying to marry
35:06
Speaker 1: his daughter off to quote a Mexican man I don't
35:09
Speaker 1: know who the man is, in an attempt to collect
35:12
Speaker 1: his daughter's part of the inheritance when she was just
35:16
Speaker 1: thirteen years old. Each of the children would get the
35:20
Speaker 1: other half of the money, which is a million dollar
35:22
Speaker 1: eh is two million bucks. So he was trying to
35:24
Speaker 1: marry his daughter off to some guy in an effort
35:27
Speaker 1: to get her money, which he's just thirteen, Nancy. He
35:31
Speaker 1: was a schemer and he's probably he was trying to
35:33
Speaker 1: get a little advanced on his his crime in the making.
35:37
Speaker 1: You know, this is someone who who was obviously devious
35:40
Speaker 1: and had every angle figured it out, or at least
35:42
Speaker 1: so we thought, But he was not as smart as
35:44
Speaker 1: he thought. Oh, I just don't understand how he had
35:49
Speaker 1: so many schemes going at one time in that one
35:53
Speaker 1: brain of his. Back to you, Larry, Larry mayor joining us.
35:57
Speaker 1: What more do we know? Well, Uh, one thing I
36:01
Speaker 1: wanted to point out is that there is a way
36:04
Speaker 1: to make money playing backgammon. Uh. It was not entirely
36:09
Speaker 1: in jest when Alan pointed out that he was very
36:11
Speaker 1: good at backgammon. He is considered one of the best
36:14
Speaker 1: backgammon players in New York and backgammon as a game
36:19
Speaker 1: comes with a gambling cube as one of its basically
36:24
Speaker 1: basic pieces of equipment called a doubling cube, in which
36:27
Speaker 1: the beat on each game can double with each roll
36:30
Speaker 1: of the dice. So backgammon has been a gambling game
36:34
Speaker 1: for thousands of years. So yes, there is a way
36:37
Speaker 1: to do it. I'm not sure that he had discovered
36:40
Speaker 1: a way to make money at it yet he was
36:42
Speaker 1: at that point still living on his wife's money. It's
36:46
Speaker 1: it's a it's considered a very high high end, high roller,
36:51
Speaker 1: high society gambling game, favored by a lot of wealthy,
36:56
Speaker 1: wealthy types, wealthy men. And what's the difference between this
36:59
Speaker 1: and the stock market, which he which he was playing. Well, here,
37:03
Speaker 1: you can control it a little more. You know, you
37:05
Speaker 1: have your at least you've got the uh, the little
37:08
Speaker 1: you know, pieces of dice or whatever the pieces are
37:11
Speaker 1: that uh, And and you can calculate the odds of
37:14
Speaker 1: stock market either. He's probably rely a an inside trader,
37:19
Speaker 1: insider information type guy. Uh. And he liked he liked
37:23
Speaker 1: more control if if if he controlled the crime scene,
37:26
Speaker 1: he controlled the cops information. He's going to try to
37:29
Speaker 1: control every aspect of this. Uh. This evil Okay, guys.
37:34
Speaker 1: To Larry Mayor and Arn Harris, I appreciate the two
37:38
Speaker 1: of you schooling me and backgammon, but in my mind,
37:43
Speaker 1: it's just like every other gambling scenario because that's what
37:47
Speaker 1: he was doing. This is not, as you said, you
37:49
Speaker 1: have the chance role in backgammon, which is the gambling aspect.
37:57
Speaker 1: Uh as as a former prosecutor, prosecuted everything from murder
38:02
Speaker 1: to arsonto rico to gambling that ended up in murder.
38:07
Speaker 1: So in my mind you may call it uh intellectual,
38:12
Speaker 1: wealthy pursuit backgammon, but in my mind is gambling just
38:18
Speaker 1: like everything else. And UH, you can put perfume on
38:21
Speaker 1: the pig all you want to, but it still smells,
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40:24
Speaker 1: to the murder after our backgammon tutorial. You know, I
40:29
Speaker 1: think I had it wrong though. Daughter comes in and
40:34
Speaker 1: finds Mommy submerged in the bathtub. She her body was
40:37
Speaker 1: not dry. His body was dry, which says to me
40:41
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, he didn't try to get her out of
40:43
Speaker 1: the bathtub and save her. Well, of course not. Yeah,
40:48
Speaker 1: it certainly sounds like, um, almost like some kind of
40:51
Speaker 1: a a fantasy of his. Um, you know, with with
40:54
Speaker 1: his gambling as you were discussing, and his propensity for
40:57
Speaker 1: risk taking and seeing himself as as it's kind of
41:00
Speaker 1: an omnipotent character with a lot of grandiose fantasies about himself. Um,
41:06
Speaker 1: almost like this with some kind of a Jeames Bond
41:09
Speaker 1: scenario that he had put together in mind, you know,
41:12
Speaker 1: with with his poor wife as the victim. You know,
41:16
Speaker 1: I will give you this, Larry and Art, he was
41:20
Speaker 1: a pro. He even helped found the US Backgammon Federation.
41:25
Speaker 1: Now what is that. I'll be honest, I don't know
41:28
Speaker 1: about the US Backgammon Federation or what it stands for
41:32
Speaker 1: or what it means that you're a co founder of it,
41:34
Speaker 1: but you are right about that, Larry. He was well
41:38
Speaker 1: will rooted in it. I just wonder if he was
41:40
Speaker 1: making any money off of it or was he still
41:43
Speaker 1: leeching off of her Larry? Well, as far as I know,
41:48
Speaker 1: he was still in hopes of collecting at least part
41:51
Speaker 1: of her estate when he was arrested. As aren't mentioned,
41:55
Speaker 1: he had a deadline. He was two months away from
41:58
Speaker 1: collecting two million dollars from her estate when he was
42:01
Speaker 1: picked up at the train station to Scarsdale, UM after
42:06
Speaker 1: blabbing to one of his girlfriends about it. So Uh,
42:09
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, he was still living
42:12
Speaker 1: on her um income as a banker. Uh, even even
42:17
Speaker 1: though she had been gone for some time. By that time,
42:21
Speaker 1: the trust funds had been set up for their children,
42:24
Speaker 1: so their children's inheritance had been protected at that point.
42:28
Speaker 1: And as soon as he was arrested, her estate cut
42:31
Speaker 1: him off cold, and her parents sued him for wrongful death.
42:36
Speaker 1: Well there's another issue. Did you know this guy's Did
42:40
Speaker 1: you know that, against the wishes of her family, he
42:43
Speaker 1: tried to take her body and have it buried in
42:47
Speaker 1: Israel And that the family went berserk, crying quote hysterically
42:55
Speaker 1: when they saw that he was planning the words beloved
42:59
Speaker 1: mother and life on her gravestone. Now, how can you
43:03
Speaker 1: just take somebody at a child's mother's body to another
43:07
Speaker 1: country and bury it. Alright, Harris, how does that work, Nancy?
43:12
Speaker 1: He would have had to jump through a lot of hoops.
43:14
Speaker 1: I have not heard of that. I mean, it's hard
43:16
Speaker 1: enough to get a dead American out of a foreign
43:19
Speaker 1: country back here to bury, versus bringing someone or exporting
43:24
Speaker 1: a dead body to Israel. So I think that was
43:27
Speaker 1: not going to be an overnight happening. They put this,
43:31
Speaker 1: put a stop to that. And one on one other point, Nancy,
43:35
Speaker 1: is that his lawyer claims that that didn't actually happen,
43:38
Speaker 1: but the family has a different story. You know. Another issue.
43:42
Speaker 1: I find it interesting, Larry Mayor that she was found
43:45
Speaker 1: dead on New Year's Eve. Um. I don't know the
43:49
Speaker 1: significance of that, but I really do think that that
43:51
Speaker 1: is significant. And did you know that it was originally
43:55
Speaker 1: ruled an accidental falling. Yes, the time though it would
44:00
Speaker 1: and it's not like it was at the time when
44:02
Speaker 1: people were out celebrating New Year's Eve. It happened that
44:05
Speaker 1: are fairly early in the morning. Police arrived at the
44:07
Speaker 1: apartment about seven. I think what threw the family over
44:11
Speaker 1: the edge was him placing a stone marker on her
44:15
Speaker 1: grave that read beloved mother and wife, despite the fact
44:19
Speaker 1: that she had returned already obtained a get a religious
44:22
Speaker 1: divorce from him before she was killed. But he still
44:25
Speaker 1: had that on her her gravestone at which Westchester County
44:31
Speaker 1: Cemetery to me, you know, to Dr Chloe Carmichael doing
44:35
Speaker 1: that to her in death, you know, putting that marker there,
44:40
Speaker 1: even after she had a restraining order against him, she
44:43
Speaker 1: had gotten a religious divorce anyway, and was suing for
44:47
Speaker 1: civil divorce as well. And that Jewish tradition you have
44:51
Speaker 1: to get us art told us a get which is
44:53
Speaker 1: a religious divorce and a civil divorce, and he still
44:57
Speaker 1: did that, put that on her gravestone. Main that's awful,
45:02
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, Well, it certainly is. It's awful, and it
45:06
Speaker 1: really just reeks of somebody who is extremely calculating. It
45:10
Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me if he wanted to get the body
45:13
Speaker 1: out of the United States so that he could prevent
45:16
Speaker 1: a scenario exactly like we're finally seeing now, which is
45:20
Speaker 1: that an autopsy was somehow finally done. Um. It sounds
45:24
Speaker 1: like a man who's very, very concerned with outward appearances,
45:28
Speaker 1: who has a lot of fantasies about himself and power,
45:32
Speaker 1: and so if he could arrange for this burial to occur,
45:36
Speaker 1: that actually somehow painted him as a victim, as a
45:39
Speaker 1: loving husband who had lost his beautiful wife. It really
45:44
Speaker 1: sounds like a calculated move to me. And aren't what
45:47
Speaker 1: do you know about the fact that in April he
45:51
Speaker 1: filed papers at Westchester County Surrogate Court asking to be
45:55
Speaker 1: named guardian of an ETNA life policy his wife had
45:59
Speaker 1: and the she had left it for Anna and Miles. Who, um,
46:03
Speaker 1: we're about nine and five at that time, Nancy. This
46:07
Speaker 1: is in keeping with someone who is looking for every
46:11
Speaker 1: loophole and would even use the Jewish religion as a
46:16
Speaker 1: loophole to get a body out, uh, you know, the
46:19
Speaker 1: get divorced, to try to get around all these things
46:22
Speaker 1: his wife had put in place, and he was trying
46:25
Speaker 1: to get away from him. He was a violent guy,
46:27
Speaker 1: had just filed restraining order against him. So the clock
46:30
Speaker 1: was ticking. You asked about why New Year's Eve he
46:32
Speaker 1: didn't have much much time to pull this off. He
46:37
Speaker 1: knew and I think that that led to this cascading
46:41
Speaker 1: of events, and probably he made he made this mistake
46:44
Speaker 1: about about not getting wet when he when he put
46:48
Speaker 1: the body in the tub. So where does that stand
46:51
Speaker 1: right now, Larry Mayor. This case was in court a
46:56
Speaker 1: few weeks ago for a emotion's hearing. They're still in
47:00
Speaker 1: pre trial motions at this time and prosecutors are still
47:07
Speaker 1: putting together their case to take to a trial court.
47:11
Speaker 1: I don't know that the trial date has been set yet,
47:14
Speaker 1: so the case is heading to trial. To aarn Harris prediction,
47:19
Speaker 1: I think his his backgammon game is about to come
47:22
Speaker 1: to an end, Nancy, unless he can find anybody in
47:24
Speaker 1: prison who who plays. And that's doubtful because it's a
47:28
Speaker 1: different a different social strata, shall we say so? Uh.
47:33
Speaker 1: The mother was thrilled that they finally made an arrest
47:37
Speaker 1: made the charges. Her divorce lawyer. It did not surprise
47:40
Speaker 1: him when he learned that his client had had been killed.
47:43
Speaker 1: He immediately thought that the husband did it. Nancy Grace
47:47
Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off Goodbye. F