Latest / The Daily Writer / Daily Writer on What It Means to Be an "A+" Writer
Transcript
- 0:12SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Rider.
- 0:15SPEAKER_00: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
- 0:23SPEAKER_00: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers and teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
- 0:31SPEAKER_00: For more, you can visit us at dailyriderlife.com.
- 0:37SPEAKER_00: On today's episode, I am thrilled to be joined by one of my very best friends in the world, Mr.
- 0:42SPEAKER_00: Jared Odal.
- 0:43SPEAKER_00: Jared is a missionary, a copywriter, an all-around fantastic guy, and also a member of our Daily Rider community.
- 0:50SPEAKER_00: And this episode will be the first of probably lots of conversations that we feature here on the podcast on different topics related to writing.
- 0:59SPEAKER_00: So this is not really an interview.
- 1:01SPEAKER_00: This is simply a conversation where we have a topic.
- 1:03SPEAKER_00: We have a couple things that we might want to dive into related to that topic, but there's nothing else that is nothing else that is predetermined on these kinds of episodes.
- 1:12SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to try this.
- 1:14SPEAKER_00: I love conversations, and I think you'll enjoy this as well.
- 1:17SPEAKER_00: Today we discussed the topic: what does it mean to be an A plus writer?
- 1:21SPEAKER_00: How do we determine what excellence is and what is our standard?
- 1:25SPEAKER_00: This was a fascinating conversation, and I hope this inspires you to keep doing the work and not get hung up on trying to be perfect.
- 1:32SPEAKER_00: So here's my conversation with Jared Odal on what it means to be an A plus writer.
- 1:38SPEAKER_00: Hey Jared, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
- 1:41SPEAKER_00: I am excited you can join me today for this uh conversation.
- 1:45SPEAKER_01: Hey, thank you.
- 1:46SPEAKER_01: I yeah, you know, we always have a good time hanging out.
- 1:49SPEAKER_01: So uh thanks for letting me for giving me a good excuse to chat and catch up with you.
- 1:54SPEAKER_00: Any chance that we get to chat together is always a good experience.
- 1:58SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
- 1:59SPEAKER_00: Well, and you know, the upside of all this is that everything is good compared to the low points of working for two solid nights in a row in college on some exegetical Greek assignment, which I think was the low point of our relationship.
- 2:14SPEAKER_00: Either that or traveling, you know, with a music team to one or the other.
- 2:20SPEAKER_00: One of those two.
- 2:23SPEAKER_01: You had to suffer with my with my weird southern gospel uh rambling warblings in our music team way back when back in the day, those those were those were those were tough times, you know, dependency, high dependency on caffeine to get through uh Greek.
- 2:42SPEAKER_01: And even then, I'm not sure we were very nice to each other.
- 2:45SPEAKER_00: Probably probably not, but hey, we made it through.
- 2:47SPEAKER_01: That's what we did.
- 2:49SPEAKER_01: We did, and we have the scars to uh to attest to it.
- 2:52SPEAKER_00: That's true, that's very true.
- 2:54SPEAKER_00: So we are here to chat about uh maybe 10 or 15 minutes um about this topic on what it means to be an A plus writer.
- 3:02SPEAKER_00: And this is something that we've been batting around for a little while about how do you grade yourself as a writer?
- 3:08SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad you suggested this topic because it's something that has maybe this came about because I keep referring to myself as a B level writer.
- 3:17SPEAKER_00: I don't know where this came from necessarily, but you suggested it.
- 3:21SPEAKER_00: But let me just start out with asking you this question.
- 3:24SPEAKER_00: What do you think it means to be a B level writer or an A-level writer?
- 3:27SPEAKER_00: And or maybe just where does this whole idea come from of needing to grade ourselves?
- 3:32SPEAKER_00: Because I hear a lot of writers talking in these terms like, I'm not that great of a writer or I'm a pretty good writer, or whatever it is.
- 3:37SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
- 3:38SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts?
- 3:41SPEAKER_01: Well, so I'm with you that as I've kind of gotten into the writing world, uh, over the last what year and a half, uh, I've kind of been working on that a couple years, maybe a little bit longer.
- 3:54SPEAKER_01: And I was really intimidated by getting started because you know, you see you see people who are, oh, you're so successful, just do these things.
- 4:03SPEAKER_01: And there's a whole industry around that, right?
- 4:05SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, yeah.
- 4:07SPEAKER_01: It it's it's crazy.
- 4:08SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's really bad in the copywriting world, which is where I tried to like get into it because they're all marketers, so it's hey, look at me, you know, all salesmen.
- 4:18SPEAKER_01: And you know, you think, man, can I do that?
- 4:21SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I was writing fine, but I didn't know it.
- 4:25SPEAKER_01: Um, and fine is better than how most people write, like good solid writing.
- 4:31SPEAKER_01: Um, and by good solid, I mean can you communicate with someone?
- 4:35SPEAKER_01: Can you just write to someone?
- 4:38SPEAKER_01: Can you write a letter and somebody understands, hey, I know what you're talking about.
- 4:43SPEAKER_01: That's really all that that we're saying with being a good writer.
- 4:48SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure we give each other enough credit because I I I think there's a few things.
- 4:53SPEAKER_01: One is growing up in a in a school system where you're graded on you know what perfection is with grammar and all of those kinds of things.
- 5:04SPEAKER_01: And in the real world, what's more important is not style and grammar, it's content.
- 5:11SPEAKER_01: Can you get an idea across that is important and in a way that people understand it?
- 5:17SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it.
- 5:19SPEAKER_01: And I think I had to learn that as a speaker.
- 5:22SPEAKER_01: You know, I've you know, I've spoken a lot over the years, and you know, you can freak out about that too, getting up on the stage and you know, size of crowds and all of a sudden another.
- 5:32SPEAKER_01: And it's not that big a deal.
- 5:34SPEAKER_01: It's just can you get your idea across and you're a good speaker, and that's all that's required.
- 5:39SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, get your idea across because they're gonna they're gonna forget you, like, and I guess that's the other thing is it's okay to be forgettable.
- 5:49SPEAKER_01: I I think that that's the other side.
- 5:51SPEAKER_01: So you got school, and then the other thing is being a star creator, because we've got that now as a brand, right?
- 5:57SPEAKER_01: You brand yourself, be a big, memorable person, these larger than life, YouTube or writers, or these big stage people.
- 6:07SPEAKER_01: And I guess it's what you want to accomplish.
- 6:09SPEAKER_01: I mean, you certainly can go for a celebrity status, like that is if I and I and I think I heard that in a podcast recently to get to that A plus level, it's kind of that whole celebrity gig.
- 6:21SPEAKER_01: And I'm not interested in that.
- 6:23SPEAKER_01: What I'm really interested in as a writer, as a speaker, as a communicator is can I help somebody change their life a little bit?
- 6:31SPEAKER_01: It's in the 1% changes compounded over time that we build a life.
- 6:37SPEAKER_01: It I don't need to make an aha moment for someone and be remembered for it or even think for it.
- 6:44SPEAKER_01: And I think that took me a while to figure that was really real for the writing world as well as in speaking.
- 6:51SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, that's kind of where I come from at it.
- 6:54SPEAKER_01: And I think it's great to be if that means I'm a B level guy, that just means I helped somebody change their life 1%, sign me up.
- 7:02SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm in for.
- 7:04SPEAKER_01: But I think I can have an A plus life by my own what I want to accomplish, being a B level creator, writer, speaker.
- 7:15SPEAKER_00: I boy, there's so many directions we could take this.
- 7:18SPEAKER_00: Something interesting to me happened yesterday.
- 7:20SPEAKER_00: I sent out, so we're recording this on Monday, October the 18th.
- 7:24SPEAKER_00: This will come out in a couple of weeks, probably on the on the podcast.
- 7:27SPEAKER_00: So I sent out um one of my weekly newsletters, email newsletters to my list.
- 7:33SPEAKER_00: And I was just talking about my writing journey and how I transitioned from being a college professor to a ghostwriter.
- 7:39SPEAKER_00: And it was actually quite a long email, it was probably like 1500 words, which is really, really unusual for me to do that.
- 7:45SPEAKER_00: But once I got going, then it just became longer and longer.
- 7:48SPEAKER_00: So I just decided to go ahead and send it out.
- 7:50SPEAKER_00: But as I read through it myself, so I subscribed to my own email list with like three different email addresses because I want to make sure it looks correct through each of those email accounts and all that jazz.
- 8:02SPEAKER_00: But as I read through it, I just thought, man, I could have written that better, I could have said that better.
- 8:07SPEAKER_00: I left out this thing.
- 8:08SPEAKER_00: I saw all the things that I knew I could do better, yet I got a great response from it.
- 8:13SPEAKER_00: You know, people were, I had probably gosh, five or ten people email me back since just yesterday within the last 24 hours, just saying, man, this was great.
- 8:23SPEAKER_00: We loved it.
- 8:24SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the inspiration.
- 8:27SPEAKER_00: And it just dawns on me that I think the older I get, the more I realize it's really hard for me to be objective about my own creative work.
- 8:36SPEAKER_00: And other people may see this as, and even somebody that I highly respect who's on my email list, they emailed back and said, This was great, I loved it, it was so fantastic.
- 8:45SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, I'm looking at this and I'm grading it as a B.
- 8:49SPEAKER_00: I think the content was really solid.
- 8:51SPEAKER_00: I could have written it a little bit better in some places.
- 8:55SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, there's a disconnect between what people perceive us being sometimes and what we perceive ourselves to be.
- 9:02SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how to bridge that gap.
- 9:04SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's really a big challenge.
- 9:07SPEAKER_01: So I I okay, as a constantly recovering perfectionist, I'm a thousand percent with you, right?
- 9:15SPEAKER_01: And I okay, so I'll say this to you.
- 9:17SPEAKER_01: I read that email on your list, right?
- 9:20SPEAKER_01: And I'm not just a friend, I'm a subscriber.
- 9:23SPEAKER_01: So uh I read that and I was like, okay, this is good because you're communicating what you do.
- 9:29SPEAKER_01: And I think, okay, I can say this to you.
- 9:32SPEAKER_01: Your B level work is a plus for some people, and I think it's true for all of us when we work in our giftedness.
- 9:40SPEAKER_01: Yeah, our B level we don't have to work at.
- 9:42SPEAKER_01: What just comes out is it's like, uh, I just do it.
- 9:47SPEAKER_01: But no, like that is a gift, and I'm not sure that we appreciate our gifts because it's it's so natural for us.
- 9:55SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like people who run fast.
- 9:57SPEAKER_01: I'm like, eh, I don't even want to run, let alone run at all, let alone run fast.
- 10:02SPEAKER_01: And they don't even think about it.
- 10:04SPEAKER_01: They just do it.
- 10:05SPEAKER_01: Like, uh, just do it.
- 10:06SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
- 10:07SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's true for you as a writer.
- 10:08SPEAKER_01: I think it's true for us as a creator when we're actually in our our sweet spot, we just do it.
- 10:14SPEAKER_01: And our B level is A-level work.
- 10:17SPEAKER_01: I think what these guys that listen to us podcasts were talking about is that little bit of work to get from A to A plus, where they're talking about becoming that that superstar where you're ranking in the first one or two on a Google search.
- 10:33SPEAKER_01: And me, I have like no interest in that.
- 10:35SPEAKER_01: Uh, like personally.
- 10:37SPEAKER_01: I mean, it may happen one day, but it won't be because I planned it.
- 10:41SPEAKER_01: I'm really more interested in grading my life.
- 10:45SPEAKER_01: My A plus life is by helping to impact people, just like what you are communicating in your email.
- 10:52SPEAKER_01: Like the your response, yes, you could have been A plus because you're thinking about this critique, that critique, but it's making an impact on people.
- 11:01SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a huge response.
- 11:03SPEAKER_01: People to take the time to email you back in just one day.
- 11:06SPEAKER_01: Hey, you're changing people's lives.
- 11:09SPEAKER_00: And maybe that there's an and thank you by the way, maybe there's an element to this where we have different standards for different modes of communication.
- 11:17SPEAKER_00: So, for example, right now I'm working on two books of my own, in addition to a bunch of client books.
- 11:25SPEAKER_00: Um, which I know sounds like a nightmare for most people because just doing one book sounds like a gargantuan task to most people.
- 11:32SPEAKER_00: But when it's your job and when it's the thing that you do naturally, it doesn't feel like work to do this.
- 11:36SPEAKER_00: It just is a natural outcome of what you do as a creative person.
- 11:41SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I do a lot of different types of writing.
- 11:44SPEAKER_00: I do some social media stuff, I do my email newsletter, you know, blog posts, podcast stuff.
- 11:48SPEAKER_00: And all of those to me are sort of one standard of excellence that I need to meet, where I need to make sure I there's no typos if possible.
- 11:57SPEAKER_00: You know, I need to make sure the grammar's correct.
- 11:59SPEAKER_00: Uh, I don't worry a lot about sentence structure or really fine-tuning the language of it and making it really, really flow because all that is can be really time consuming.
- 12:10SPEAKER_00: But for the Daily Writer book that I'm working on that'll come out next October, I am doing that for that book.
- 12:16SPEAKER_00: So I am raising the standard for that book, like every word.
- 12:20SPEAKER_00: I want to make the prose in that book sing and to make it just as good as I can possibly make it.
- 12:26SPEAKER_00: And it's taking way more time, but that's also going to be an audiobook, you know, a print book, an ebook.
- 12:33SPEAKER_00: And this is a book that I want writers to use every day.
- 12:36SPEAKER_00: So, so maybe there is an element to where we have different standards of, you know, for for a print book, the the writing needs to be a level, it really does, in my opinion.
- 12:48SPEAKER_00: For emails, for social media, maybe B level is fine, or maybe a B minus.
- 12:53SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
- 12:54SPEAKER_00: Do you resonate with that?
- 12:55SPEAKER_00: Does that even I'm wondering if that is even a correct approach to what we do?
- 13:00SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I think so.
- 13:01SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, so I think also, I think there's two levels of that.
- 13:06SPEAKER_01: One is I think it's really important to do excellence.
- 13:10SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not poo-pooing excellence and doing your best work.
- 13:14SPEAKER_01: Um, like I said, I'm a recovering perfectionist, right?
- 13:17SPEAKER_01: That I want it to be very, very good.
- 13:20SPEAKER_01: And I think that's absolutely true for anything in print.
- 13:24SPEAKER_01: And and we're we're putting our name on, or as Ghost Rider, you know, you're putting somebody else's name on, especially.
- 13:30SPEAKER_02: Yes.
- 13:31SPEAKER_01: Um, for sure.
- 13:32SPEAKER_01: You know, you feel you own that, right?
- 13:34SPEAKER_01: You own that.
- 13:35SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really big.
- 13:36SPEAKER_01: And I'm not trying to downplay that, but I think that there is maybe relaxing a little bit and understanding that as a creator, what may feel like a B to me, probably there's like this level of where that is an A.
- 13:51SPEAKER_01: Uh, even in my emails, I may feel like it's a C, and I'm not even thinking about it because I'm just writing the thing.
- 13:58SPEAKER_01: It's probably more like B level, uh, because I'm I'm not pressured by it.
- 14:02SPEAKER_01: I was listening to a podcast uh over the weekend, um, and the lady is oh, she's brilliant, and she's working on this thing in in uh psychology or whatnot.
- 14:14SPEAKER_01: She's talking about mindfulness.
- 14:16SPEAKER_01: She said, you know, we have about four hours a day of really deep creative work in us.
- 14:22SPEAKER_01: So she's she's kind of like, yeah.
- 14:24SPEAKER_01: So she's like, okay, I schedule because she's a writer, she schedules it to protect that four hours of deep creative work.
- 14:33SPEAKER_01: And so she can say, okay, I'm putting my a time into I protect that time, I'm gonna jump in, I'm gonna expect my A stuff out of those projects for herself, for her clients.
- 14:46SPEAKER_01: But then after that, she's gonna switch gears.
- 14:49SPEAKER_01: So if it's email, if it's social media, if it's these other things, it's like, okay, it's not my A plus work, it's not my A work, it's not my A game.
- 14:59SPEAKER_01: And that's okay because I've scheduled that time, I've already used my A game time for the for the projects that are important.
- 15:05SPEAKER_01: So it does resonate with me.
- 15:07SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to realize also value the fact that what we may even feel like in that creative moment, it may feel like B grade material, but it's still a work because you're putting in the time and you're doing it.
- 15:23SPEAKER_01: Like most people don't even do that, so that makes it a level work, or it's the seeds of a level work, and this is something else.
- 15:31SPEAKER_00: And to me, this is the beauty of podcasting and having conversations, is is you don't really get these thoughts on your own.
- 15:37SPEAKER_00: You know, when you're in conversation with people, it introduces new ideas, and I think this is a huge part of the creative process.
- 15:43SPEAKER_00: Something that I had never thought about before, I'm kind of embarrassed to say that this had never occurred to me, is that it's really, really hard to do A plus level work totally on your own.
- 15:53SPEAKER_00: In fact, it might be impossible.
- 15:55SPEAKER_00: Because one thing that I have learned in ghost writing for clients, and I highly recommend that all writers really strongly consider doing client work of some kind, because you learn a lot about writing, you learn about business, you just learn so much about a lot of things that it and it makes you a better writer in the process.
- 16:13SPEAKER_00: Like doing client work, it never makes you a worse writer, I don't think.
- 16:18SPEAKER_00: Um, it's always going to improve you in some way.
- 16:21SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think it's so valuable.
- 16:22SPEAKER_00: Plus, you can make money, which is which is awesome.
- 16:24SPEAKER_00: You know, we all like to eat and put shoes on our kids' feet.
- 16:28SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 16:29SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just wanted to mention that things like rewriting, editing, revision, collaboration, those kinds of things take our writing from a B level to an A or an A plus level.
- 16:43SPEAKER_00: And you're not, it's kind of like, you know, when you go to Mount Everest, nobody climbs Mount Everest alone.
- 16:48SPEAKER_00: You always do it with a partner or with a group, or most of the time with the aid of of oxygen, you know, supplemental oxygen.
- 16:55SPEAKER_00: You can't just decide you're gonna scale that sucker by yourself.
- 16:59SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe reaching that peak level of writing is the same way.
- 17:03SPEAKER_00: You've got to have collaborators or co-writers or good editors or or whatever it is.
- 17:08SPEAKER_00: I don't know what what are your thoughts on that?
- 17:10SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
- 17:12SPEAKER_01: One thing I've read, and I think now I really understand better.
- 17:17SPEAKER_01: Now that I've been writing more seriously over the last you know year, is writing is really there's rough draft, but writing is really about editing.
- 17:27SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it I I think that we should call ourselves editors extraordinaire.
- 17:33SPEAKER_01: And if you're worried about being a writer, it's not the writing that I think where everything crystallizes, it's in the editing.
- 17:43SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
- 17:46SPEAKER_01: I completely agree with you that you the more people involved in your editing process, that's what makes you a strong writer.
- 17:53SPEAKER_01: The more voices you listen, okay, not more, the right voices you choose to listen to, right?
- 18:00SPEAKER_01: In the editing process.
- 18:01SPEAKER_01: And that includes your own voice, right?
- 18:04SPEAKER_01: I guess maybe that's what I'm speaking to is if you're putting in the time editing, you are in the process of moving from B to A and from A to A plus.
- 18:13SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 18:14SPEAKER_01: Um that's good.
- 18:16SPEAKER_01: Because if we're not, if we're not editing, like if I just crank out an email, I can crank out a decent email in what 15 minutes or whatever, depending on the length of it, right?
- 18:25SPEAKER_01: You can just crank one out.
- 18:27SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be fine, it's gonna communicate, and that's that's good.
- 18:31SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you're crafting something and you want to edit it, like okay, that that raises the level of it immediately when you're just doing a little each edit, you're raising your game.
- 18:43SPEAKER_01: And I think I've adopted that that thought process it especially on days when I hate editing, right?
- 18:49SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm going over this thing again and again and again, and it sounds the same.
- 18:54SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, this is the work it takes to get to the A level that I want to provide to help people change their lives.
- 19:03SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
- 19:05SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
- 19:06SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been fun, man.
- 19:08SPEAKER_00: We could talk about this all day.
- 19:10SPEAKER_00: But I do want to keep these conversations a little bit shorter, um, because it's better to end too soon than go on too long.
- 19:16SPEAKER_00: You know, I just like the Seinfeld principle.
- 19:19SPEAKER_00: You know, end just a little bit before people want you to.
- 19:23SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, let's be done then.
- 19:26SPEAKER_00: This has been great.
- 19:26SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm looking forward to doing some more of these.
- 19:29SPEAKER_00: I hope that for everybody listening, this has planted the idea in your mind of what does it really mean to be a B level writer or an or an A or an A plus level writer?
- 19:38SPEAKER_00: And the value of collaboration and rewriting and and also the fact that it's really hard to be objective about our own stuff.
- 19:45SPEAKER_00: That this is why we need partners and collaborators, which is hard for many of us who have this idea of this solo genius writer in a closet somewhere with a with a computer cranking out the next masterpiece.
- 19:57SPEAKER_00: I don't think it usually works that way for most of us.
- 20:00SPEAKER_00: So so Jared, thanks for doing this.
- 20:02SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your friendship and I look forward to the next one.
- 20:05SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
- 20:06SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on.
- 20:07SPEAKER_01: I I enjoy picking your brain and uh sharing life with you.
- 20:11SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
- 20:12SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
- 20:14SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
- 20:16SPEAKER_00: If you've been listening to this show for any length of time, you know that one of the four practices of a great writer is creativity.
- 20:23SPEAKER_00: And in order to stay creative, you've got to have great input.
- 20:27SPEAKER_00: And that's where writing prompts come in.
- 20:29SPEAKER_00: A writing prompt is a sentence or two that helps you break through creative blocks, brainstorm new ideas, and get back into a state of flow.
- 20:37SPEAKER_00: Writing prompts are an awesome creative tool for journaling, storytelling, creative writing, stress relief, social media posts, and so much more.
- 20:46SPEAKER_00: But the great news is that you don't have to create these yourself.
- 20:49SPEAKER_00: We've put together an amazing package of 365 daily writing prompts.
- 20:54SPEAKER_00: So every day for the next year, you can have a shot of inspiration delivered straight to your inbox.
- 21:00SPEAKER_00: You can check it out at dailyriderlife.comslash writing prompts.
- 21:05SPEAKER_00: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.