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Is Speaking in Tongues Biblical? Our Honest Take · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: In this program, we're going to be engaging with a couple of cestacionists who talk about the gift of tongues and find out that we actually agree more than we disagree.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be an interesting program.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: You guys stay tuned.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're back last week.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: We, for the first time, engaged with a ministry by the name of Dial In Ministries.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've got Hank and Johnny who are on the Dial In Ministry podcast today that we're going to be watching clips from.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they are teaching on the gift of tongues, what the Bible says about the gift of tongues quite a bit.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: We really agree with.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: They open up the podcast talking about their personal experience, Johnny's personal experience in particular with going to a Pentecostal church, being called up on stage because he doesn't speak in tongues.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: The elders lay hands on him and then he's kind of like flopped on the forehead and now speaking the heavenly language, and he just couldn't.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he was told that he didn't have enough faith.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's kind of chastised for this.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes to, you know, Australia, meets up with a whole bunch of Pentecostal folks down there, charismatic folks, and had some good hangs, built some good relationships, but just disagreed with the context of tongue speech.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So him and his co-hosts dive into this podcast.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: That gives you a layout of what they talked about at the very beginning of their podcast.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're going to jump into a couple of these clips looking at some of their teachings in relationship to Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 10, Acts chapter, what is it, 19?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then additionally, 1 Corinthians 14 and 12, engaging with what the text is saying about tongues.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole lot we agree with them on.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: There is a good chunk that we disagree on, but it is nuanced.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think he's debating classical Pentecostals, not average continuationist.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you have that lens, it frames some of this conversation.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to toss it over to Michael or either Michael, Michael Miller or Michael Roundtree.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us any any kind of starting thoughts on this program before we get started.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh pretty much what you said, uh there's a lot that we agree with, but I think the discussion needs some more nuance.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that nuance will help build bridges between cessationists and continuationists.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I just want to say I appreciate our cessationist brothers and sisters.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: I love that uh they really care a lot about what the scripture says, and uh and they're they're good people.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I've recommended cessationist churches to people before, even though I think they're wrong about the gifts.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's best if they believe in gifts.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I uh and so I just want to help build bridges with this episode while also offering some good Christian critiques.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: So uh that's my thought.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: Miller, how about you?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean, I'll tell you what, on the very front end, I can empathize with the story that he brought to bear on this um of his own desire to pursue these things and then what took place subsequently.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: It was actually pretty atrocious.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm here in Montana and I was just with somebody two nights ago telling me that he had gone to a church and somebody asked him if he spoke in tongues, uh, and he was like, No.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like, Oh, well, you're not even a Christian.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: You need to, you know, give your life to Jesus and you need to speak in tongues.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And he was just totally put off by that.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I hear this kind of stuff, and I'm just like, I think that's the last thing Paul the Apostle would have ever wanted when it came to this gift is to have people question their own salvation because they do or do not speak in tongues.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so in many ways, I'm glad uh I'm glad I actually agree with my friends on the other side of the spectrum here when it comes to some of the abuses that we see.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: I am going to push back on some of this, uh like all of us will.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I can see that we agree with a whole lot more than we disagree with.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: So and one of the reasons we picked them, uh Miller turned me on at these guys a couple weeks ago, is it was actually Roundtree who did.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, was it Roundtree?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my apologies.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: My apologies.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I just happened to watch, I just happened to watch the content and mentioned, yeah, we should definitely respond.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: That was it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it I what I like about them is that they are kind, they're careful with their speech, um, they're thoughtful with how they they present their information.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we often engage with those really incendiary clips because they become viral and you know, hey, are you gonna address this?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to engage with like something that's really intense.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I much prefer uh having uh nice, cordial conversations with people on the other side of the theological aisle that we disagree with, but that are kind of showing mutual respect on both ends.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is I think this is gonna be fantastic.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So uh glad that we get to introduce our audience to these guys.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if without any uh uh I mean objection, should we just jump into clip one?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's go for it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think first of all, from like from a tongue's perspective, the first time you see it in the New Testament is in Acts chapter two.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Acts chapter one, Jesus ascends.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: He not only res you know is risen from the grave, he ascends to the Father right now in glory.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: There is a resurrected body of Jesus Christ.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: In Acts chapter one, eight, Jesus says, But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be my witnesses, both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now later on in Acts chapter 2, it's the birthday of the church.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit's going to come down exactly as Jesus has said, and he's going to come, and that's where you get the first instance of someone speaking in tongues.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you read Acts chapter 2, verses 4 through 11?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Acts chapter 2, verse 4 begins.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now they were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men of every nation under heaven.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered because each one of them was speaking in his own language.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: So they were astounded and marveling, saying, Behold, are not all of these who are speaking Galileans?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And how is it that we each hear them in our own language in which we were born?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Parthenians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontius, and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the district of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretians and Arabs, we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, first instance of tongues, it's very clear, and this is something you need to understand if you're listening or watching, is a known language.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: In verse two, it says they begin to speak with other tongues as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: In verse six, it says, because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is real phonetic languages, not gibberish, not ecstatic speech.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: In verse eight, it says, How is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we are born?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Verse 11 says, Cretans and Arabs, which we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this Greek word is galassa.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: It refers to real languages.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I have written down here in my Bible from 12 years ago, it says knowledgeable languages.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And people are hearing them talk about that.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: It mentions 16 languages here, and that's the first instance of tongues in the New Testament.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you turn over to Acts chapter 10, there's a story there where Cornelius, who was an Italian man, he had the Italian cohort, he is brought to saving faith.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter goes to him, and there's a little bit of confusion.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, does God in fact, does Jesus in fact save the Gentiles?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it says in Acts chapter 10, verse 44, while Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, that's the Jews, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Then Peter answered, Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Can he?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So Cornelius gets saved.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's a Gentile, and the Jews are there watching Peter talking to this man about the gospel.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it says that the Holy Spirit comes on him and he begins to do exactly what happened to them in Acts chapter 2.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a known language, same word, same reality here.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: They were speaking in known tongues.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: We see this elsewhere in Acts chapter 19, where with the Ephesians 12, the Holy Spirit falls on those that were previously following John the Baptist, and they begin to speak in tongues as well.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Same word, same instance, leading us to conclude, okay, throughout the book of Acts, throughout the history of the church, every single time the word tongues is used, it refers not to ecstatic speech, not to a private prayer language, but to a real language.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And this is universally agreed upon by even many continuationist charismatic scholars.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So at that point, if you've read the book of Acts, the burden of proof would be overwhelmingly on someone to say that there is tongues that differ from what you see in the book of Acts.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to start off and say, okay, why do we we pick these clips to engage with?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think we largely agree uh here on the program that what is taking place is xenolalia and not what has been called glossolalia.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh these are two Greek words, one glossa, meaning kind of more of the gibberish kind of speech, no, no real syntext-like structure.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then xenolalia, which would refer to a language, like a the way that you and I would use the word language.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um here here's the thing.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: On these arguments, we do agree that the use of uh the use of tongues is a known language.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do we agree across the board this is a known language, even if it's not known in this region, in this time, uh, but is an actual phonetic language of some kind?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: We are we all on the same page there, guys.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I think we are.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Miller?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: Not not everyone agrees in charismatic world, but we agree.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, we agree.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_04: There's this is a known language.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_04: Acts two is earthly languages.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It not only is it earthly language, would we go as far to say that all tongues are known languages?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh known is a strong word because we're asking who has the knowing?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Does it mean that that it's known in the assembly?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think that actually Acts 10 and Acts 19 indicate that the people around heard them speaking in their own dialect.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that he's missing out and he's importing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Do you do you or Michael speak Japanese?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I know, no.
• 11:12
  unknown: No.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the reason I asked, because we would all agree that Japanese is a known language, but it's not necessarily known by anybody on this call, is it?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so when he says known language, you have to define what you mean by that.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I don't doubt that it was a known language, but that doesn't necessarily mean let me rephrase that.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't doubt that it's an actual language, but it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody is going to understand it in the room you're in, which is the whole point of Paul's first Corinthians 14.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: The point is not everybody here understands this.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so when people say uh it can't be gibberish, like we're all in agreement, it's not gibberish, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every time it's spoken, someone's gonna know it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the very reason he wrote 1 Corinthians 14 was to correct that problem.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and I do I can uh sympathize a bit with the cessationist position on this.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: One, because I actually do believe it's a known language in Acts chapter two, and two, because what sometimes passes as a quote unquote prayer language does legitimately sound I and I won't say that it's like this for every charismatic.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I've heard you guys speak in tongues and uh and my own tongues, I don't think it sounds like gibberish.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but I've been in charismatic crowds where somebody is going dah da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm just I'm like, even if we believe that there's such a thing as heavenly languages, I don't think that's it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I that's at best a heavenly syllable.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's just doesn't pass the smell test.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_04: So I I understand that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I do think it is an interpretive leap because he makes a big deal about hey, the first instance is clearly earthly language languages.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, agree with your premise.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: Therefore, in these other unclear texts, Acts 10, Acts 19, it's surely only earthly languages.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: But just because something happens one time one way, does that mean it happens other times that same way?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: And the fact that Acts 2 being a unique historical event, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, hearkening back to John 7.39, where the Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified, or Acts 2.33, Jesus is exalted to the right hand of the Father and has now poured out this which you both see and hear.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: This is a unique event in history, and I know he agrees with this, uh, that it's a unique event in history, but Acts 2 specifically, it's significant that all these nations that Luke lists are present hearing tongues in their own language, because Luke is portraying this as a reversal of Babel, where at Babel, God judges the nations by uh or judges the world essentially by scrambling their speech, and at Pentecost he unscrambles it so that they're all hearing tongues in their own languages.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: And if I remember right, Miller, I think you uh I've heard you say this, I've and I've studied this before, but it's just been a long time.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: I if I remember right, the list of nations actually coincides with the uh table of nations in the book of Genesis.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh is that right, Miller?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's the order, yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's with Heiser makes this argument that it's the order uh from like the east to west or whatever kind of like uh regional orientation it makes from this region over, it's that same order there in the book of Acts.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: So my point is Luke is making, yes, he's telling history, but he's also making a theological point.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_04: Babel has been reversed, the spirit has been poured out, the nations that were once judged are now graced uh with the gospel in their own tongues.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so there's a unique historical event, and I don't think that we can transpose that on every future event that happens, case in point, Acts chapter 10, Acts chapter 19, it says nothing about these other nations being present.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_04: And the way the story is told in Acts 10 and 19, it almost sounds more like what charismatics traditionally describe as tongues.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't, it doesn't sound like, oh, the other people are understanding what they're saying.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's my first point.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: He's making an interpretive leap to say what happened in one instance must be what's happening in all instances.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh that uh I I think that's also explainable in another way that this was a unique uh historical event where Luke is making a theological point about what's happening in redemptive history.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and to decide whether that's what happened in Acts 10 and Acts 19, the other instances where tongues is uh is told about, uh, we have to pull in other factors.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh is there any evidence in Acts 10 or 19 that that that uh these are known human languages?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_04: There's actually not.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: And the fact that it's the same Greek word uh is kind of irrelevant because heavenly languages are still languages.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and it's the the word for tongues, languages, it's the same.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's uh I think overly confident of a statement.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the last thing I'll say is First Corinthians chapter 14 uh seems to suggest the possibility that there are such things as heavenly languages.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: I've seen if I can uh find it here.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Uh 1 Corinthians 14, 14, if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um maybe that that's not quite the tongues of angels.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's first Corinthians 13, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_04: Where he says if I have all Yeah, and I wouldn't call that decisive, the tongues of men and of angels, but the fact that's hyperbelief in the context.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the fact that First Corinthians 13, one is uh told in the context of spiritual gifts, uh, it does seem like he's referencing tongues and at least entertaining now he could just be by being hyperbolic here, but it's at least seems that he could be entertaining the possibility that men could speak in the tongues of angels, uh, since it's context of spiritual gifts.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but beyond that, I I think uh a big one is uh it's at the beginning of 1 Corinthians 14.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_04: I wish I had pulled it up right now, but it says that the one who speaks in in a tongue speaks not to men, but to God, and uh and he speaks mysteries.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: So if that's really true, if you're speaking not to men, not but to God, that sounds a whole lot like what uh charismatics talk about as a prayer language.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and if it's you know, the thing about like I'm speaking in English right now, do you know why?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm speaking to people who speak English, I'm speaking to men, I'm not speaking to God right now.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but a tongue speaking to God, it would make sense if there was some kind of heavenly language that you were speaking.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: And what I would say about this, and there are more texts in 1 Corinthians 14, you guys might have already pulled them up, uh, that speak in that way as though this is like a mysterious language.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and and since the spiritual gift of interpretation is looked for, not not a Paul doesn't say, hey, if somebody speaks in a tongue, ask if there's a Russian uh present, ask if there's a Japanese speaker present.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_04: No, the spiritual gift of interpretation seems to indicate it at least point toward.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to be overconfident here because I don't think this is a fully decisive case either way.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and uh but what I would say is that it's really relevant that 1 Corinthians 14 is a didactic text and not a narrative text.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: And what I would say about uh about the two, narrative texts, they they teach, they for sure teach, but we have to be uh we have to have a certain level of care in our interpretation of them because a lot of times they can just be inferences.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um and he turns his infrar inference into a an absolute, and I don't think you can do that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it's easier to make absolute statements about what the epistles say uh because they are didactic and they are directly teaching and they are helping us interpret some of the narratives, and that's the way the reformers understood it as well.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so uh I think we have to pay attention to genre of literature and uh not to overstate the case based on what happened one time in a narrative.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to turn it over to Miller to give some commentary.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I do want to kind of shelf some of this.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to continue to talk about 1 Corinthians 13 and unpack some of that towards the the end because I think of video three or four, he's going to address First Corinthians and we'll be able to engage with some of his arguments more pointedly.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And as Roundtree said, we've got all those verses pulled in.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: The reason we're starting here, just so people know, uh, is that he's going to make the case that uh it was communication through known human language.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's no evidence of personal private prayer language.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: When I would argue in all of these accounts, and I'll do this in a moment, I want Miller to get a chance to speak, that virtually all of these moments could be viewed actually as a personal private prayer language rather than some kind of oratory message or sermon that some people uh assume these texts are actually conveying.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: But Miller, uh, feel free to uh touch on anything if you want to touch on what I said, uh, and I don't have to unpack it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just know you haven't chatted a ton.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a little bit of background noise.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure why you can hear that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um Did I freeze up?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're good.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you did for a second, you're good.
• 20:09
  unknown: Go.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, sorry about that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: Something's wonky with my computer right now.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um so a couple of things here.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh when you hear languages that you don't understand, you don't always think to yourself, is that a real language?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's usually not a question you're asking.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: But when someone says they're speaking in tongues, then you start asking that question.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um there are a number of languages out there that don't sound like real languages.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and I think the the judgment that happens on a lot of charismatics is usually anecdotal and less scriptural.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm not trying to be mean uh to these guys, and I'm not trying to say that that cessationists in any way don't use scripture.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think they do.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I I do think that there is experience playing into it, whether they mean for that to be the case or not.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, when Paul says they speak mysteries, it's pretty clear that people don't understand what's being said.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I would suppose that if we had people speaking tongues today, it would be mysteries.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: They wouldn't necessarily understand it unless there's someone with a gift of interpretation or someone in the uh in the room that happens to speak that language.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um the other thing that I would mention is when he quotes from Acts chapter two, uh he's failing to consider some of the things that are mentioned there.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like first off, if tongues is a temporary language, then why does he quote Isaiah 59?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: He quotes Isaiah 59, I will put the I will put the words in their mouths, and in the mouths of their children, and their children's children forevermore.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what are the words that were put into their mouths?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: They were other languages.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like he's putting a timestamp for how long those things will continue for generations unending.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: The the So I'm just saying this because the idea that that gift would no longer be around or necessary is actually disproven by the very passage that Peter quotes.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the experience they're having is this tongues gift.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so, and it does seem to be God putting those words in their mouth.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um even the wind thing you see uh in Isaiah 59.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's like all of those things are pointing to the fact that Isaiah is talking about a new covenant reality, uh, and Peter is saying, This is what this is.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's good.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I I like your point about some languages don't sound like languages to us.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like, have you heard about the clicking tribes in Africa?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's like I think they call them like the Bushmen, and there are a number of tribes that speak this way, but if you hear them, it just sounds like you know, it just it sounds funny.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: We would be, you know, if a charismatic was to do that while speaking in tongues and someone else was to hear them, they'd be like, That's not a real language, but but it is.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Your mic cut out round tree.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Try to get Uh yeah, you're back.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just making sure you said, but it is, but it cut up right there at the end for some reason.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um here.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let me unpack uh a couple things here.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Acts 2, uh, Acts 10, Acts 19, real carefully.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um Acts 2, you already heard him read that passage.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: You saw that he said that they were uh quote, um, speaking of the mighty deeds of God.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now here's what's important in my uh understanding of Acts chapter 2.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: One, it wasn't the word um xenolia that is being used for languages uh that is super important here.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's the word dialecta.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: We heard them in our own dialect, our own language there towards the end.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually probably more important that says that, hey, we understood what they were saying in our own known language.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what's important though is what they were saying they were saying.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: They were extolling these deeds of God.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting phrase, these mighty works.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I would argue that they're doing something akin to worship or prayer in the midst of what's taking place in Acts 2.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: There is this belief that what happened on Acts 2 is that languages were given to the apostles and they could just show up to a group of people in Papua New Guinea and speak in tongues, and the people in Papua New Guinea would understand what was being said.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now the gift of tongues was used primarily in evangelism.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: But if that were the case, why did Peter need to stand up on the day of Pentecost and explain what they were seeing and point them to Jesus?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because the tongue speech wasn't doing that, the tongue speech was extolling the great works of God, which is the same kind of thing we see in Acts 10.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: While Peter was uh uh st uh still saying these things, so he's preaching a sermon, mid-sermon, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the words, and the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles, for they were hearing them speak in tongues and extolling God.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what's interesting here is it does not say in this passage that they heard them speak in their own dialect.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: They just recognized that the tongue speech was doing something, extolling the works of God, i.e., I think, again, praising.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what's important is that our our commentary from Johnny is going to argue that personal private prayer language is not the primary use of tongues.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually arguing it is the primary use of tongues, and it happened to happen in a context in Acts 2 where there were people present who knew that known language.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in Acts or in 1 Corinthians 14, what we're going to see is they're praying to God and they're worshiping God.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in the midst of that kind of activity, uh, unbelievers are present who don't know what the tongue speech is, and they go, hey, that's confusing.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: That r these people are crazy and out of their mind.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm actually just flipping the script here and saying, yep, tongues is a language.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um at times the people around don't know the language, such as Acts 10 or Acts 19.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's no evidence that they knew the language, only that they knew that the gift of tongues was actually extolling the works of God.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Let's look at Acts 19, 1 through 7, real quick.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it happened that while the apostles uh was at Corinth, Paul passed through the island country and came to Ephesus.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: There he found some disciples, and he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, No, we had not even heard that there was a Holy Spirit.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: These guys are disciples of John.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't believers.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Believers had heard about the Holy Spirit.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and he said, Well, I say believers, they weren't they were believers in Yahweh, right?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Faithful to Yahweh, but they had not yet heard that Jesus the Christ had come, right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh verse three, uh, and he said, Into what were you baptized?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: They said, John's baptism.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul said, John baptized a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is Jesus.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and prophesying.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they were all about twelve men in all.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: So here in this account, it doesn't even say what the tongue speech was doing, nor does it say there was any form of interpretation or that this was a known dialect to those who are around.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: What Johnny is doing is he's taking the dialecta from uh Acts chapter two and then reading it into all the other passages, saying everyone around knew what was being said.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: All that the text says is that they were speaking a language.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily say in either of those other places that the people around understood them in the known language, as we see in Acts chapter two.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Any kind of pushbacks you guys would give me on that?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Miller seems to be moving his camera, so I'll punch it to Roundry first.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, your mic is not working again.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's up with that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, buddy.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh pushing back to Miller.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, gotcha.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, sorry, my bad.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, certainly uh no pushback.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_04: I would heartily agree to make the point that tongues is really not prayer.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, man, I think that's a a really hard argument to make.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_04: Here are a few verses.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_04: First Corinthians 14, 2, the one who speaks in a tongue speaks speaks not to men, but to God.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_04: What do you call talking to God?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: I call it prayer.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh verse 14, more explicit.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_04: Verse 15, I will pray with my spirit.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it says, and then it later references singing uh singing praise with my spirit.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: So prayer and worship both count.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: If I give if you give thanks with your spirit, verse uh 16 and 17 both talk about.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: So you've uh so you've got thanksgiving, which is another form of prayer.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then verse 28, uh, if there's no interpreter in the church, keep silent in the church and speaks speak to yourself, uh, the man should speak to himself and to God.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_04: And so again, God directed speech, man, this sounds a whole lot like tongues is a prayer language.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's why I don't have a problem with the charismatic vernacular of tongues as a prayer language.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_04: And even when you read in Acts 2 that they were declaring the wonders of God, um, could it be that they're declaring the wonders of God like you see in the Psalms, where they're declaring his praise and uh singing his praise amongst the nations, that it's more of a God-directed sort of speech.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's very possible, and a lot of people understand it that way uh because of uh 1 Corinthians 14.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would be my take.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Michael's gonna run through all of our notes for later on the show when we engage with 1 Corinthians 14.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: We need to hit clip two because we've got five and we only have 28 minutes.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: I cannot get ahead, dude.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Round Tree has Bible tourettes.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys know this.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, when a Bible verse comes to mind, he's just gotta get it out.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's gotta get it out.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, clip number two.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to talk about those maybe legitimate questions that maybe some people have regarding tongues in First Corinthians.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: In First Corinthians chapter 12 through 14, Paul talks a lot about tongues.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the most natural way to read it, in my opinion, is that it is talking about the same gift.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm not convinced that this is a private prayer language that is ecstatic or I mean it's not in a disrespectful way, but like gibberish or or you know, not real language.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Probably the most prominent passage would be in 1 Corinthians 14, 2.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says, For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what is Paul saying here?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think because he's using the same word, I I don't think it's that difficult to understand from my perspective.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: In Acts chapter 2, when they receive the gift of tongues and begin to preach in other languages, there are people there that knew those languages that identified that, hey, they're speaking in our own native language.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: But in this case, the in the Corinthian church, there's no one there to discern what language they're speaking.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a mystery to them and they're speaking to God and not to men.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a problem because spiritual gifts are given for one predominant f purpose.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's that?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Edify and build up the church.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: To edify the church.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're speaking in tongues and no one is there to understand what you're saying, then Paul's going to say elsewhere, like, how can you say amen to something you don't understand?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So he says here, for the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mystery.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't think that's referring to a private prayer language.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: I also think the burden of proof would again be on okay, on someone saying that this is an ecstatic, this is a different type of language.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I and there are many people that say this, this is a respected position.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, John Piper would say, no, an axe is talking about a known language, but this might be referring to a private prayer language.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh super thankful for uh again Johnny's critique here, very careful in his speech.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've already addressed, I think primarily all of the text he used.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: All of those could be understood as prayer to begin with.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So nothing about those passages necessarily undermines the idea that this is used primarily in prayer.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh secondly, uh here in this clip, you you notice he smuggled the word preaching in tongues, because there is no account of ever anyone preaching in tongues.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: At best, we have an account of someone giving a tongue and the interpretation functioning in a similar way as the gift of prophecy.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you'll notice he engaged with one specific text, but ignored quite a few others.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: First Corinthians 14, 14 through 15.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: For if I pray in a tongue, uh, again, pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: What am I to do?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: I will pray with my spirit, but I also pray with my mind also.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: I will sing praise with my spirit, but I also sing with my mind also.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, notice Paul says, pray in the spirit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul already understands the gift of uh tongues uh as prayer here in this context.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh verse uh four, uh the the tongue speaker edifies himself.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: The entire point of the gift here in Paul's use is to edify the believer.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I agree we should always push per pursue spiritual gifts that edify the church at large, but I would have to ask you, if I'm praying in tongues, which Paul says it is, could it not be that I am also praying for the church?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Would that not edify the church?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say it certainly could be uh in that kind of secondary uh function, but if I'm speaking in tongues and I'm praying for the church when it's causing distraction and disorder within the assembly, I agree we should remain silent and pray to ourselves.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's an interesting language that he uses there in 1 Corinthians, uh, I think it's 14, uh uh I think it's 26 through 28.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'll have to look at the the reference here in a moment.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but he he says to pray to himself and to God.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't sound like he says don't pray in tongues.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds as if he's saying, quiet yourself to the degree where you're praying.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we would say prayer uh tongues has a volume knob to it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I pray in tongues at church almost every week, but nobody sees me do it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody hears me do it because it's during worship.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's kind of sound going on, and I'm able to kind of pray under my breath.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is what Paul is instructing.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I 100% agree with Johnny.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Loud, everyone, raise up your holy faith and begin to speak in tongues is nonsensical.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um that that nowhere would be in the text of scripture and would be completely condemned by the Apostle Paul.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um verse 27 through 28.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I speak in a tongue, let it be uh only if if there's to be someone speaking in tongue, let there only be two or three at most, each in turn, and let someone interpret.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if no one is to interpret, let each of them keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: So again, here's the language, not to the whole church, myself and God.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a volume knob to me.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then the final thing that I'll mention here is the interpretation of tongues that is used here.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Corinth is this kind of commercial hub.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they have lots of known languages there in uh their region.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of tons of languages are present.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul is still saying that there needs to be an interpreter because even though there's lots of languages present, uh, it might not be the case that whatever language you're speaking in is actually known to those hearers.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a really interesting thing.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: If there was a church all throughout the New Testament that would have tons of different languages present, it would likely be the Church of Corinth.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, I I I will I'll pause there and give you guys commentary and and time to chat.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Miller, I'm gonna go with you first so we don't steal all the thunder.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh again, I I agree with him here, and I I kind of wonder if maybe the funny thing is I know he's he's really arguing with a novel, a more novel position, that there are two kinds of things that take place.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was the the Foursquare uh theologian out of California, I can't remember his name, but he wrote a book called The Prayer of the Jack Haferd?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: Jack Hafer.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think he was probably the first one to advocate that there was a difference between speaking in tongues and a prayer language.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually disagree with Jack Hayford.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think there is a difference.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think tongues is prayer.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that's how Paul talks about tongues.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I'm guessing that the dial in guys are are mostly referring to this idea that tongues is and only of itself a prayer language.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um sorry, that that idea that tongues is a prayer language charismatics believe, um uh versus uh a gift of tongues, which in his mind would be preaching.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost as if he's got two categories, or he's taking those two categories of Jack Hayford and sort of evaluating that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um if I was to give a position on it, I think tongues is often prayer.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think you can do it quietly, I think you can choose when to do it, when not to do it.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the whole point that Paul says is do this between yourself and God.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he also does say it edifies the self.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: And he's not saying that that's a bad thing.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um people I've heard that argument that people think that edifying the self is selfish and it's bad.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: And yet we're told to do that in Jude verse 20.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: It says build yourselves up in the Holy Spirit or build yourself up in the holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um that could be tongues, uh, not to say that spirit prayer is only tongues prayer.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but my point is this I I don't think there is two separate gifts.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's one gift, it's called a gift of tongues.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's something we do when we need to pray.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we don't have the words, and God says, Here, let me help you with this.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and when there's interpretation, oftentimes you'll have people interpret your prayers.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and just as a case in point, is how how this gift is not necessarily preaching, but is actually prayer, and that when interpreted is actually beneficial to the body.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think I've told this story before in the past, but one of the times where um my friends and I had spoken in tongues and interpreted, uh, I had a guy who was praying in tongues, and my friend interpreted him praying for a young pregnant woman.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now, something none of us knew was that his brother just found out that his brother's girlfriend was pregnant and they were not married.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so this was gonna be kind of a shocker for the family that they hadn't yet told.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and he heard him praying for a young pregnant woman, something none of us could have ever known.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, on another occasion, I prayed in tongues and my friend interpreted, and he said that I was praying for him, the kinds of things that that only brothers would do to pray for brothers in the most uh um difficult of moments, like men in foxholes.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh that was incredibly encouraging and edifying to him.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: But again, what he interpreted was the prayers.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: I've also had people interpret me speaking influent Portuguese, a language I do not naturally know.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: And in the same way, they've heard me praying about a number of things, and so um I I think there's just a little bit of a misnomer here.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: There's things he's taking from Acts and he's assuming and laying that out on everything else.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: The prescriptive text we have is 1 Corinthians 14, the descriptive text we have is Acts chapter 2.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I I don't want to read uh Acts two into 1 Corinthians 14.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: I feel more inclined to read 1 Corinthians 14 into Acts 2, but I also think you can read them separately and interpret them separately.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh hopefully that helps.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's good.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_04: The way I've heard some Pentecostals word it with the two different kinds of tongues is that there's a public use of tongues, there's a public gift of tongues and a private gift of tongues.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_04: And when I've engaged in conversation about that, the reason for that objection comes when I've brought up, for instance, uh 1 Corinthians 12, where Paul says, Are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: And one of them is, do all speak in tongues?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_04: And the implied answer is no, not everyone speaks in tongues.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_04: But the Pentecostal wants to be able to say everyone can speak in tongues because everyone can be baptized in the Spirit.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so they say there's a private prayer language uh that's being talked about in First Corinthians 14, but then there's uh there's also a public prayer language, which is also discussed in that chapter where there's an interpretation.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and I just don't see that.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: I see that there's one gift of tongues, and it is speaking in unknown languages, which in my opinion could be earthly, could be heavenly.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: But when Paul says, Do all speak in tongues, I think we take it at face value, know that they can't.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_04: Not everyone will.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, we at Runa Radio do not interpret the baptism of the Holy Spirit as being a subsequent experience to conversion, but rather simultaneous to conversion.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's a whole another big conversation.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh anyway, but I do appreciate what um uh what they said on this podcast.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate how uh he actually said, like, you know, I don't want to be disrespectful here.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_04: Well, like when he used the word gibberish and so on.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think he's trying to be respectful.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_04: I think he's uh you know, he has interpretations and he shares them, but I think he does so in a respectful way.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: I do appreciate that.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I again I think he makes an interpretive leap to say uh they were preaching in other language in Acts chapter two.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I don't think that's obvious, declaring in their own words the wonders of God.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think that could mean that they were just overhearing somebody essentially extolling or worshiping God, but in those other people's tongues.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it very well could mean that.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: And one indicator that it might mean that is the fact that Peter has to stand up afterward and explain what's happening.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: And uh if they preached the full unadulterated perfect gospel to everyone, then why do you even need Peter to preach?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: They already heard everything, but Peter has to actually interpret the situation and I uh as the story continues.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I think, in my opinion, I think that it's probably uh a God-directed speech in Acts chapter two.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: And so when he says they preached in other languages, and now he wants to import an inference into 1 Corinthians 14, I think it's a stretch, especially when we've so roundly proved that tongues is prayer in 1 Corinthians 14.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, it doesn't mean that it's exclusively prayer, that's my inference, but uh but at least largely, at least largely prayer.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think the uh other thing that I would say is when he talks about like the gifts of the Spirit are for the church, wholeheartedly agree.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_04: First Corinthians 12 makes that point very soundly.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we also have to understand that um tongues, there there is a unique role in tongues in this that uh in how it edifies um with an interpreter, it certainly edifies the church corporately, uh, but as a prayer language, it it edifies just that person praying.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um and uh I mean, unless maybe they're praying for somebody else and the person doesn't even know it's sure that that could edify somebody else, to Miller's point.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_04: But I just want to read a couple verses uh that I think are important for us.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh 1 Corinthians 14, 4, it says the one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so Paul doesn't say self-edification is illegitimate.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, when he gets to verses 18 and 19, he says, I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_04: Nevertheless, in the church, I would rather speak five words with my mind.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: So if uh if under this uh alternative interpretation that we've just heard on the video, uh I wonder what would what was Paul doing when he spoke in tongues by himself?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_04: Preaching?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_04: Was he preaching while he pray while he spoke in tongues?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I don't think so.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think Paul in his private times with God is just preaching into the air and somehow edified by it.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: I think he's praying, and I think that is highly supported by the fact that Paul actually says things like I pray in the spirit.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: So uh I think it is again a a leap to say speaking in tongues is exclusively preaching to other people.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's a good thing.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then and what do you call it, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: If it can't be done in public and it's prayer, I guess you call it private prayer.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's like personal private prayer language actually is not too far of a leap from what the text is actually telling you to do.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Pray to yourself and to God, you know, turn that down, uh, or uh go pray alone, because you know, I pray in this context, but when I'm in the church, I would rather speak in English.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul is clearly uh making the connection between being alone and then being in public.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm not seeing a huge difference there.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the thing uh spiritual gifts can get complicated.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole lot of stuff, uh again, context clues.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of really good scholars have done the work.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've tried to distill all that information into our course, Introduction to Spiritual Gifts.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're out there and you're interested in checking out that course, uh registration is going to open up uh, man, it uh August 19th is when that registration opens up.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a 10-week course.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've got online uh videos that you watch online.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can break out into small groups, practice with a small group leader, and the new live QA with the three of us, Michael Roundtree, and myself.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're interested in doing some deep dive into spiritual gifts and learning what the Bible says about those things, go check it out there.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, without further ado, though, because we are now at the 43-minute mark, we need to punch to this next video.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Miller, it looked like you had something you might have wanted to say.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: And because of silence, I'm gonna click the next video.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that another verse that would, you know, people or just another idea is that people view in the Pentecostal church.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Many churches would say that speaking in tongues is the symbol of the baptism of the spirit.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you've been truly saved, this is something that you will do.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like it happened at Pentecost.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, but yeah, and I would just.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Wanted everybody to know that the moment you get saved, you receive the Holy Spirit.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, 13, for by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one spirit, for the body is not one member, but many.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no second baptism where you receive the Spirit of God.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's no second baptism where you kind of begin to speak in tongues.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to be careful here to not respond to maybe one thing that I disagree with by, you know, swinging to the other side of this pendulum to say, like, hey, no, I I want to pursue a deeper experiential intimacy with Jesus.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it says taste and see that the Lord is good, not believe and affirm.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there should be a real experience to our Christian life.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that happens in a moment.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that's progressive sanctification that we are kind of wading into the waters of our relationship with Jesus more and more.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now I would say I think it's again, it's just so critical to hear the heart in the conversation of there's not a desire to paint like in broad strokes, characterize the other side kind of as deviously as you possibly can to kind of shrink wrap their argument and toss it to the side.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's a level of care here that people do fall on different sides of the spectrum.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what might also be helpful is there's definitively things that need to be spoken to that are happening in the modern day church context that aren't clearly elaborated for us in scripture.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, here's here's what I definitely, definitely know is that nowhere, nowhere in the New Testament church would you walk in and everybody would be speaking in tongues.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's Paul says in for in 1 Corinthians 14, 27, if anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea of going into a service and there are hundreds of people speaking in tongues, Paul says actually in 1 Corinthians 14, 23, if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: He says, if you walk into a church and everybody is speaking in tongues, they're going to think you're crazy.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: God is a God of order.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: God reveals how he is to be worshipped.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: So church services should have obviously there's a mystery to the gospel, but he says, if everybody walks in and you're speaking in unintelligible, you know, to them languages, which again, it's languages according to Paul, that's the word Glossa.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: But he says, if you're all speaking in tongues and there's no interpreter, no one's providing order, they're gonna think you're crazy.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's not my word.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's just right here in the text.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's for sure.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: He says, two or at the most three.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I like what this guy said.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: And that is where, you know, sometimes they'll call this third wave charismatics.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_04: That's where kind of like John Wimber really was at the vanguard of that, where uh, you know, first wave was a Sousa Street and uh big, you know, revival and tongue speaking and all that happened with that, however one interprets that, but it's uh a lot of tongue speech, and then there was like a uh uh second wave was that it started to go into some of the main line denominations, and then um uh am I hitting it right, Miller Josh?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then third wave was where where uh like Wimber came along and he's like, hey, actually, you know, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is concurrent with simultaneous to salvation, and the initial physical evidence of tongues sometimes even often happens, but not necessarily.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I like that.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's an important uh distinction and uh because one, I think it's what the text teaches, uh that's really the big one.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_04: But secondly, there is sort of a downstream effect if one kind of categorizes like you've got your tongue-speaking, super holy, super powerful believers, and then you've got your nung, non-tongue-speaking second-class Christian citizens, uh, that creates this division in the body of Christ.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I I know some Pentecostals who like they don't operate that way, they're very careful not to create those divisions.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but the uh but I've been around a lot of Pentecostals as well that do create those divisions, and so I think that's a a potential downstream effect if uh if they're not careful.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: But we love our Pentecostal brothers and sisters, even though we disagree about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and uh and I really like what he said about uh I have seen this uh an unfortunate amount in charismatic church services where uh a worship leader, I mean, they don't do this in my church because I wouldn't let them, but um where a worship leader stands up and says, Hey, let's all sing in the spirit, and everybody's like speaking in tongues, and they're like, But it's a beautiful experience.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, Yeah, unless you're the unsaved dude in the room, then you're like, get me out of here.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, quick story, uh, I was actually saved in a church where uh a bunch of people were speaking loudly in tongues.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_04: I was 17 years old, and it's not just that I'd never heard people speak in tongues before, I had never heard of the gift of tongues.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't even know what it was.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_04: So you can imagine how I felt when some lady behind me who happened to be the youth pastor's wife is like, you know, I was like, I guess you got crazy people in every church, and uh and somehow I still like really experienced the Lord and had a powerful experience, so I didn't become the model of 1 Corinthians 14 where the unbeliever just runs away.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_04: I I was I was just like, okay, I don't get that, and that's weird, and I guess there's some crazy people in every church, but I did really encounter the Lord, I did really get saved, and they were good people, they weren't bad people, they were good people, and I think had a bad practice, and um and so I thank God that I uh by his grace happened to overlook that and get actually saved, but man, what if that had turned me away?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that would change my whole trajectory of life, and I think it's uh inexcusable when a worship leader stands up and says, let's all sing in the spirit.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: There's literally no context where that's good or okay.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I I guess maybe I could uh let's say there's like a 15-person prayer meeting and they're all Christians and they're speaking in tongues together.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_04: I actually don't have a problem with that because principally what Paul's arguing against is the presence of an unbeliever.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: If they're all speaking in tongues, I think it could be okay.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um as long as they're all Christians.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_04: So um anyway, but but even so, I would appreciate praying for an interpretation in that situation because that is Paul's instruction in a corporate gathering.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: So uh Miller, what were you trying to say?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'd add the caveat there.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: He also mentions those who are uninformed.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't think it's just the prerequisite being Christian.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's also those who may be Christian, but they really have never even heard about spiritual gifts.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think of the average evangelical that walks into like somebody who's come from what this the university this guy came from.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um your average Christian cessationist evangelical walks into a charismatic church and everybody's speaking in tongues.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that the propensity for them to get freaked out is is quite high as well.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I think Paul is also trying to avoid that.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: So um I again, I don't mind if it's a private prayer meeting uh where that's taking place, but when you have the potential to freak out those who are uninformed about these things, I I'd probably avoid it.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's funny you guys mentioned that.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: I had a guy, uh, I'm just gonna shout out to Adam.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna throw him right under the bus.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't care if I I didn't ask him permission to share this, but he'll be fine with it.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um he doesn't watch the show anyway, I don't think.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um Adam Adam sends me so he comes from it's okay to talk behind people's back if they never find out.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll send him a link.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: He can watch it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say it to his face.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um anyway, so uh Adam, you know, he's been coming to my church.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's kind of been more in the cessationist spaces, was in a Presbyterian church for a long time than was just last at uh you know Baptist Church for quite a while.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he's been coming to our church, you know, preaching's been exegetical, pretty normal.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, encounter service went to one, someone got healed.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, okay, someone's got healed.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: He he's I think he's been hesitant maybe to go to the prophecy uh, you know, encounter nights where we're talking about the gift of prophecy.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: He came out for our the prophecy one and then uh sees uh uh you know prophetic ministry and goes, Hey, this is so normal.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: He sent me a text message and goes, uh, you know, thank you for not making this weird.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: I keep waiting for the weird charismatic shoe to drop, the other weird charismatic shoe to drop, and it never drops.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I just think it's fascinating because he's got an experience very similar to this guy, very, very similar to many others, where tongues become this high pressure environment where you have to have faith and you've got to fake it so you can get out of the room.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and in Johnny's story, I'm shocked that he didn't, you know, fake it just to well, also I'm shocked that they didn't keep demanding to pray for him until he spoke in tongues.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: But different contexts are gonna have different things.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so man, I think we do damage to the body of Christ and uh Christendom at large uh when we continue to propagate these things of like speak in tongues, speak in tongues, speak in tongues.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, we've got two more clips.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can definitely knock out one of them, maybe two of them.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: I want to remind people on show notes, if you jump over on Patreon, we've got a link of it in the description.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like five bucks a month.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: You get extra access to content, you'll get access to these show notes.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I also put together a list of church history quotes on the gift of tongues.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: I collected everything I could find.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: I have 28 pages of church fathers talking about tongues.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you're gonna see in one of these clips, uh Johnny is going to argue that the vast majority of people in uh the uh patristic period, first 500 years of church history, he's gonna argue 1800 years of church history.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's really just no mention of tongues being a personal private prayer language.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I found four references at best.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Three of them are quite debated.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you have those, but the good the vast majority is just talking about these being known languages and interpretation, essentially what we're all agreeing on up until this point anyway, just not an emphasis on prayer, because again, I think it's assumed from the text itself.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm gonna hit clip number four.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: Furthermore, not everyone was supposed to speak in tongues.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, 30, all do not have the gifts of healing, do they?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: All do not speak with tongues, do they?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: All do not interpret, do they?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea that speaking in tongues is the sign and symbol of a deep walk with God is nowhere found in the New Testament.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says, no, that's not that's not true at all.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would say furthermore, the Bible lays out what the framework of a church service should look like.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have any in the pastoral epistles, there's no mention of of tongues.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: You see that people are on Colossians, they're to sing to one another, let the word of Christ richly dwell within you with all psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Paul tells the son in the faith, preach the word.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's the great emphasis, great priority of a pastor is to preach the truth of God's word.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's sufficient.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even in a world and an environment right now that longs for some sort of deeper experience, Peter says, Hey, I was there at the Mount of Transfiguration, but I have something more sure.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: He says, the word of God, to which you will do well to pay attention.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: We live in a world that longs for experience.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter says, Hey, listen, I I've seen it, I've seen Moses and Elijah shoulder to shoulder with Jesus Christ.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: But the priority is and the surest thing is the word of God.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we see in the New Testament.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: He did so much, really, really good.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just so very much disagree with quite a bit here.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I will pause on what I disagree with because I don't want to, again, commit thunder theft.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've done a couple of rants already.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, where we agree, we agree that you're not super spiritual because you speak in tongues, that you're a better class of Christian.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: Roundtree's already mentioned that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: There are denominations like the Assemblies of God who won't put you on the missions field, won't let you be a pastor of a local church if you don't speak in tongues, because in their mind they have a theological reason for this.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have power to be witnesses in Judea, Samaria, and the other ends, because they believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by tongues.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: So no tongues, no baptism, no baptism, no power.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't be doing ministry.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've even heard it said uh from a charismatic leader, I wouldn't let you greet at my church and open the door if you don't speak in tongues.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think he was being eccentric, but nevertheless, uh people definitely feel like second-class citizens in those environments.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to pause right here and I'm gonna toss it over to Miller and then he'll toss it over to Roundtree, and uh we'll get we'll get a little bit of back and forth going.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is the pro the section I probably had the most problems with.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um you can tell he prioritizes preaching in general as the end all be all.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and he says that this is what the New Testament emphasizes.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, hey, okay, we're both Protestants, right?
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that we're supposed to emphasize what the scriptures emphasize to the degree that the scriptures emphasize those things.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: Do the scriptures emphasize preaching over anything experiential?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: And do they not emphasize experience?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, then why do the gospels spend so much time telling us about the experiences that people had?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh why do they call the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 manifestations of the Spirit?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is how the Spirit makes himself known in a meeting.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: These kind of gifts are operative.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's how you know the Spirit is present in there.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um true, we know that the Spirit is omnipresent, but he does manifest in these ways, which is why he gives that kind of language.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I I don't understand what's the uh it just feels like there's a bias against experience.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe it's because he didn't have an experience.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um but when I look at the scriptures, I see experiences as as quite normative.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um the number of demons Jesus casts out of people, the fact that he would say that if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: The very word that he's preaching, you're now seeing it demonstrated when he's with you.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I would imagine that those experiences are very much what affirm what he's preaching.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say that the experiences should affirm what he's preaching.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've just preached on my position on tongues and interpretation, and I've shared experiences that I had that very much affirm what the scriptures teach.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I'm not sure what he means.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like, should you not have an experience of sanctification when you preach about sanctification?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh should you not have uh uh a drive for holiness after you teach people about holiness?
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: And and shouldn't there be some sort of experience?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh do we just talk about prayer and preach about prayer, or do we pray?
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I I'm I'm taking it further than he would, but I'm just trying to show you like this is not consistent here.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I am obviously I'm a little bit passionate about that one.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, um, yeah, on the experience note, uh I don't know any contation and continuationists who would say, hey, experience is more important than the Bible.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think every continuationist I meet says, no, the Bible is the ultimate authority.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but we would also say experience is really important to Miller's point.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, Paul's experience on the road to Damascus seemed pretty important.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_04: And what experiences can do, they can cause us to go back to the Bible and rethink how we've been reading it, because we all come to the Bible with lenses.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_04: We'd like to say we have no bias, but every one of us does.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and there's no such thing as just pure objectivity when it comes to the Bible, although we'd like to say that there is, we do our best.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but you know, Paul read his Bible in a certain way, and then he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus, and he said, Hmm, let me rethink some of those verses.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and obviously he was converted.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_04: So experience can be monumentally important.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_04: So I I don't think that in order to uh say, hey, scripture is supreme, we have to downplay experience as though it kinda doesn't matter.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I mean, and uh he didn't use those exact words, it just was the sound and kind of how it came across uh was to downplay experience to such a degree that it's not even just secondary, it's it's very like small in importance.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I would say it's actually really big in importance, taste and see that the Lord is good.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_04: This is sensory language, it's the language of experience, and so uh now I do think charismatics often overdo it, and it's like, hey, I had, you know, uh you know, I I I I've seen like on Twitter, there's a guy who puts a prophecy every single day, like over everybody in the world, apparently.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just like prophecy of the day, and it's like, really, you're you're in the council of God on a daily basis and you're hearing God's word for like millions of people?
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think so.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, yeah, this Tuesday I was talking with Gabriel and then it reminded me of Monday when I was having a conversation with Michael the archangel, and I'm like, no, no, you weren't.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I I really don't believe you.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_04: So can charismatics make too much of experience?
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: Can they elevate experience above the scripture?
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but is there a way to hold intention the fact that scripture is absolutely ultimate, but experience is very important?
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so I would I would disagree with maybe the the thrust of what he was saying, you seem to downplay it too much.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the other thing is the fact that um uh the the fact that maybe some like the pastoral epistles don't mention uh the gifts in the way he feels like they should.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, first Corinthians talks about it a whole lot.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I don't know why we're choosing the pastoral epistles over other epistles.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um the whole Bible is canon, so I don't get that.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_04: And different epistles address different things for different reasons.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_04: For and uh and in fact, the same is true for each book of the Bible.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_04: Take the book of John.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_04: John has no exorcisms.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_04: Does that mean exorcisms weren't happening and exorcisms weren't important to John?
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_04: Well, they were certainly happening, and the synoptics have one exorcism after another.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_04: So why doesn't John mention it?
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, his central thesis and purpose is so that people maybe he states it, I think, in chapter 20, it's I think around verse 31, where uh where he says, I've written these things so that you may believe in the Son of God and find life in his name.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_04: He's going after salvation, he's trying to get people saved, and so he has a different approach to how he's communicating.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_04: And it would be wrong to infer from that silence that John is saying exorcism isn't important and it's not really part of Christian ministry.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and that's really what he did with the pastoral epistles.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's just a wrong-headed approach.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think that's right.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I think he probably just got over his skis a little bit and maybe said some things unintentionally, because he did say, hey, the pastoral epistles don't really mention this.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes, We should sing, and he quotes something that's not a pastoral epistle.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: He called he quotes Colossians.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's like, oh, but wait, doesn't that undermine your argument that we're supposed to do things orderly in church assemblies when it's only the pastoral epistles?
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which I don't think he actually believes because the pastoral epistles don't mention communion, they don't mention baptism, they don't mention congregational seeing, they don't mention congregational edification, the body uh edifying one another, building one another up in love.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, financial uh collections aren't mentioned in the pastoral epistles, and yet we know these are things that are taught all throughout uh Pauline uh writing.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think he's actually making that argument, but if I took his argument to the logical conclusion, I would have to say that these are things we shouldn't do in the church either, because they're not in those pastoral epistles.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: The final thing that I'll land on from this section that you guys didn't touch on is his interpretation of 2 Peter 1, 16 through 19.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in that account, he uses the King James Version rendering uh that we have something more sure, the prophetic word, meaning the scriptures, but virtually all of the modern translations have kind of uh moved away from that kind of rendering.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's correct.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you look at the NASB, if you look at the NIV and the New King James, uh, the WBC, uh, you know, quite a few of these more modern commentaries are going to use language like we have the prophetic word confirmed, suggesting that it wasn't the amount of transfiguration.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't matter at all.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: Transfiguration, it doesn't matter.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: We have scripture.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's what he's saying.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's saying we have the scripture, and our experience affirms what the scripture says.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that he's using uh an archaic translation of the Bible to make that point.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's intentional.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: He's probably heard it preached that way a lot.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard it preached that way a lot.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's what that text is saying.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we should use it that way.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's not Piper takes it the way that you said, Josh.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he respects Piper.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: He should agree.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you guys have time for this last one?
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's already you know, I've got a hard stop at five.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a hard stop at 515, so we gotta try to make it quick.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: These are basically church history quotes.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: As you kind of prep for this episode, I know you were looking back even through church history, and there's maybe some helpful resourcing.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's helpful just to know that and I think there are potentially be some rebuttals to this, but I think many of the most respected individuals from the third and fourth centuries, like Gregory of Nancy Anzis or Christostom, Gregory would say that regarding tongues, they spoke, quote, with the foreign tongues and not those of their native land, and the wonder was great, a language spoken by those who had not learned it.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they were speaking in a tongue they had never learned, but was their native, or the ability to proclaim the gospel to obey Jesus, who said, You're gonna be my witnesses.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: Chrysostom says, and as in the time of building the Tower of Babel, to your point, the one tongue was divided into many, so then the many tongues frequently met in one man, and the gift was called the gift of tongues, because he could all at once speak diverse languages.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think largely from the second, you know, early, you know, first century church to the beginning of the 1900s, there's not a lot of information or writing about a private prayer language.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: In 1901, Charles Fox Parham has a revival, and Agnes Osman is they're praying, and they say that she begins to speak something that sounds like Chinese, and the gift of tongues fell on the church.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: She began to write it down, and you can Google the image.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: She began to write down symbols that they said was Chinese.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can Google it.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was put into a newspaper.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was later determined that this is not actually a language at all.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: But Charles Fox Parheim sent people all over the world as missionaries.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think well-intentioned, that they were going to be able to learn the language of the people that they were going to to be able to proclaim the gospel.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of those missionaries came home disappointed.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't get that language.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: So largely for 1800 years, there's not a mention of a private prayer language.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, again, this is just wildly true.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: A couple things.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'll point people to the show notes.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a couple of these quotes that we should read.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: So John Cassian and Augustine both have uh what Augustine will call jubilations.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and Cassian calls, what does he call them?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: He calls them I have that written out here somewhere.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a specific phrase he uses for what he calls unintelligible speech.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um Augustine and Hippo both, uh Augustine of Hippo and uh John Cassian both have a kind of prayer that is not intelligible speech.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we should probably read those quotes.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have Edward Irving, who is a Presbyterian guy, speak of uh his personal experience with tongue speech.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that one's as important as some of the earlier church ones.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh these are all debated.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: So these first three are quite debated uh intensely.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: We've got Hildegar of of Bingen, who also makes reference to some stuff.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Roundtree Miller, would either of you feel comfortable reading Cassian or Augustine here?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'll I'll read Cassian.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so our mind arrives at at that purity of prayer, which is not concerned with consideration of any image, nor characterized by any sound or words.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_04: Rather, with the mind's attention ablaze, it gushes forth profusely as from copious a copious fountain in an accumulation of thoughts, and is poured forth to God with ineffable ecstasy of hearts and unutterable groans and sighs.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_04: It transcends all human understanding, and I would say is distinguished by no sound of the voice, movement, movement of the tongue, or utterance of words.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_04: Next one from Cassian.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_04: The mind elevated into this fiery prayer pours forth to God ineffably, grasping at that hour and ineffably pouring forth in its supplications things so great they cannot be uttered with the mouth, nor even at other times be recollected by the mind.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_04: Augustine, and you can see why these are debated, because it's not really clear that it's tongues, like it's like, well, so if they're not using words, is that even tongues at all?
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_04: But it also in other ways sounds like tongues.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and Sam Storms has some articles where he'll go through church history of uh church fathers and uh and people throughout history claiming for tongues to be in their uh meetings.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_04: You can go to enjoying god.org and just search tongues, you'll find it.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but uh Augustine of Hippo, one who jubilates, does not utter words, but it is a certain sound of joy without words.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_04: It is the voice of a mind poured out in joy, expressing as far as it can the feeling, but not comprehending the meaning, a man rejoicing in his own exaltation after certain words which cannot be spoken and understood, burst forth into a certain voice of exaltation without words.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_04: What does it mean to sing in jubilation, to be unable to understand, to express in words what is sung in the heart?
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_04: You cannot speak of him because he transcends speech.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_04: If you cannot speak of him yet remain silent, what else can you do but cry out in jubilation so that your heart may tell its joy without words and the unbounded rush of gladness not to be cramped by syllables?
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_04: Again, tongues are words, so arguably that's not what they're talking about.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_04: It could be talking they're talking about a joyful noise, like in the Psalms, uh, that's just kind of like an overwhelming emotion kind of coming out.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_04: Could be talking about that.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe this is their strange language for speaking in uh speaking of tongues.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Undecisive, uh, indecisive, undecided.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's what's the word?
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's unclear.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so some people inconclusive.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Miller.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're we were in the wrong word altogether.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, these two quotes do not, I think, prove.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think some Pentecostals will go back to church history and look at Cassian and Augustine and Hildegard of Bingen.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they'll they'll say, hey, look, these are tongues quotes.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that they're so debated.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when I read them, I go, I'm not convinced that they're tongues quotes.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the vast majority of folks did not think this was active uh in this way.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: If Augustine has got some language about tongues not being active in his day.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Again, he's got later works like City of God, book 22, where he records, you know, miracles and prophecies and those kinds of things where earlier in his writings he didn't.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So who knows if he saw tongues later on in life?
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I haven't done a deep enough dive, but I would encourage people to go to Dr.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Storm.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, guys, I've got a hard stop now.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that y'all want to add to the program before we sign off?
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm I just want to say real quick, go to Sam Storm's and Join God website and search spiritual gifts and miracles in church history.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's four parts and it's pretty uh pretty extensive.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Magical.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_04: And Miller?
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the other thing is to remember this argument that he's making here is not so much that tongues didn't exist in history, it's that nobody described it as a prayer language.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_03: And just to be clear, I don't call that a prayer language, I just call it tongues because that's the word in scripture.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um so this idea of prayer language as being the way that we should refer to it, it is more of a novelty.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to disagree with him on that.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I do think tongues has always continued um and still continues today.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that's actually what's a good a good characterization of his argument.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_04: He he doesn't argue, even if he believes it, we don't know.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_04: He doesn't say anything about it, but he doesn't argue that um tongues never existed in history.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_04: He's saying it there's no mention of private prayer languages in history, and I think that is a struggle to find in church history.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_04: I agree with that.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Josh?
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was gonna say that's right.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if you if you were to go in those commentaries and look at the commentaries talking about 1 Corinthians, like the church fathers talking about 1 Corinthians, they're all gonna talk about prayer.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I think they agree with our interpretation of 1 Corinthians because they're gonna keep using the language of prayer, but they're not gonna use the phrase personal private prayer language for sure.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, guys, I gotta sign off.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for tuning into this program, and we'll see you next time.