Latest / Hustle Rebels: Burnout Recovery for Over-Achievers / Hate Your Job But Can't Quit? How to Handle Burnout at Work | Lynnae Brown

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Hate Your Job But Can't Quit? How to Handle Burnout at Work | Lynnae Brown · Hustle Rebels: Burnout Recovery for Over-Achievers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard the advice, just quit?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Really help advice when you got a mortgage, you need health insurance, your electric company just doesn't accept protecting my piece as payment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happens when your job is draining you, but leaving just isn't the right move right now?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, today we're gonna be talking about where you still have some choices, even when your boss, your workplace, or your circumstances haven't changed.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: So by the end of this conversation, you're gonna have a clearer way to look at what's happening at work and find somewhere to start without waiting for someone else to get their shit together.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And real quick, follow, subscribe so you don't miss these conversations like we're about to have, where we're questioning the idea that being good at your job should actually cost the rest of your life.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: So today my guest is Lene Brown, a work navigation specialist who helps people navigate difficult work situations, especially when leaving isn't the immediate answer.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Her approach grew for more than a decade in the workforce development with people in mental health recovery, where she worked with the gap between what individuals needed and what workplaces demanded.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Today she helps people with their workplace as it actually is, recognizes where they actually have agency still, and decides how to approach that job so it works better within their lives.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I absolutely love the question at the heart of her work.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of only asking, how can I show up better for this job?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: What if we asked, how can I approach this job so it works better for me and the life that I want to live?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, Lene, welcome to Hustle Rebels.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Renee, for having me.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to our conversation.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were already pretty stoked before we even hit research.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited to hear absolutely everything that you have to offer.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: But first, I would love to hear a little bit more about you before we get started from your own words.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, as you mentioned, I am a work navigation strategist.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I help people basically make work work better for their lives.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the crux of that work came from the many years of working with people and mental health recovery going back to work.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: What I noticed was is that people with mood vulnerabilities, I've tell it with like a mental health issues, mental health conditions, it's just a vulnerability.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: You have to take care of yourself a little differently when you have a mental health condition.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And what I discovered is that when helping people go back to work, it was really evident to me that the workplace wasn't as visible and as clear as we need it to be.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of unwritten rules and unspoken things that you're supposed to just kind of pick up and know.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so in working with people, I was helping them make things more visible.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized over time was like, actually, this is kind of helpful for everyone.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then I found myself in a situation where I was burned out.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to stay at a job for like four years.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I had to stay in my own job for four years, burned out, because it wasn't, as I said, I've always said I wasn't a trustifarian.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I needed a job to pay my bills.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And weaving wasn't an option because at the time I was in the um public service loan forgiveness program under the government.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you can work for 10 years in public service and then you'd have your student loans forgiven, right?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was seven years in, and I was like, I had$149,000 in student loan in four years.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I have to figure out how to hang in here.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to figure this out.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of that personal experience, lived experience, professional experience has made up what I do now.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's me.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would also love to start with what work navigation means.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because for someone that's hearing that term for the first time, I am hearing that technically for the first time.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: What would bring someone to you?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like what does that technically mean?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So work navigation is, and it's very, it's kind of very simple.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically figuring out what exactly is happening at work for you, what your job actually is, finding your agency where you have room to move and change in your behavior to make that job work better for you and your life.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So work navigation is basically saying, like looking at your work situation and saying, okay, I want to change how I approach work, whether I'm burned out, whether I've decided I don't want a promotion.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to be able to do my job, take my paycheck and go home, still want to do a good job.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the one thing about work navigation.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about the quality of your work.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about how you approach and how much time you allow work to take up in your life.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Things change for a lot of different people.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I can work with people who my favorite right now is like people who are who are just getting sober because now they're no longer drinking or smoking or vaping or whatever to kind of numb the hustle, numb the pain of the hustle, and they realize now I can't keep doing this job the way it is.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta figure out another way to do it.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Also, people who do love their jobs or like their jobs and just want to be able to decenter it a little bit, decenter it so that work supports their life more than the other way around.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And work navigation is very practical because it's not about changing other people, it's not about changing the environment, it's not waiting for other people.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're literally looking at the situation and saying, what do I have agency over?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: What can I change that would help me make this work better for you?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And another way I'd also say about it too, it's like work navigation is I equate it to like a map.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say you're looking at a map, you're here, you're trying to get there.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: When you're looking at a map, you're just looking at the different routes to how you're going to get there.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: You don't negotiate with the map.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're not saying that should be a right, not a left.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: That landmark shouldn't be here, should be there.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't have to go this way, I should be able to go that way.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're just literally looking at the map and saying, okay, I'm here, I want to go here.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: What is the best route to take?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Work can be like that, or you can make work that way.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's what work navigation is about.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because oftentimes when we're at work and work's not working, it's often we're so focused on maybe relationships that aren't working, conversations haven't been had.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of personality stuff that you can kind of get involved in that makes your work so difficult.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what I'm suggesting is with work navigation, I'm asking you to pull back and say, instead of having those variable things, make them fixed.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, somebody will say, My boss is a micromanager.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: They always tell me what to do and they won't let me do my job.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they're making me feel like I can't do my job.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Work navigation says, stop negotiating with that and just pull back and say, My boss micromanages for whatever reason.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do I navigate my job, considering that?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do I work around someone who's micromanaging?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when you really get into the weeds of navigation and you start experimenting and trying to figure out different things based on that, but you're taking out the emotional charge of a situation like that.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what navigation can do for you.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so interesting too, because you brought up a few points that I really want to touch into.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: One of them is communication in the workplace, which I feel like is lost.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And another one is how are you navigating some of the people that you were talking about that is no longer leaning on some of these things like smoking weed or you know, being sober in many different ways.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: When you remove that, that is huge, right?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: You're not coming home and having like a few beers, you're not coming home and like smoking a joint.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm interested about how that differs from being like a life coach of some sort, but also how you're helping them cope, you know, when you go home from a stressful day and navigate that at home and back into the workplace.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I will say my work is basically about helping people see their jobs as something to navigate, not negotiate with.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: The hard part is stepping out of your job and being able to see it as a map.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I help people kind of get out of that head space.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because once you actually see what you can do, you can actually decide for yourself what you'd like to do.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just give you an example.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say you're burnt out, you've decided, like, look, I'm working 7 a.m.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: to 7 p.m.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm exhausted.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can't keep doing this.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is ridiculous.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've got to pull back somehow.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, got it.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So your destination is you're working 7 a.m.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: to 7 p.m.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: You want to reduce that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then we start looking at, well, how did that 7 a.m., 7 p.m.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: get there?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the rule?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is that your actual job hours?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, actually, it's 9 to 5.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Somehow it got to 7 a.m.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: to 7 p.m.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now we know we're getting there.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is this cultural?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is it assumed you'll be here from 7 a.m.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: to 7 p.m.?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you just kind of happened over time?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: We start kicking the tires on that a little bit to kind of see where did that come from?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then we start experimenting and say, okay, let's just see what happens if you come in at eight o'clock and you can leave at six, just see what happens.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if anyone says anything.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if anything comes off the any chains come off the wheel, whatever.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just see what happens.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: You might be surprised.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing happens.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody says a word.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and the point about navigation, I really want to get across too is like this is about self-accommodation.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're looking for ways of behavioral change that you can do without looking for permission, validation, someone to sign off on, because that whole negotiation gets really rugged at times too.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: That makes it really hard and keeps us from actually figuring out our own lives.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you feel like I can't do this until they do that.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And what I'm suggesting is like, no, we're looking for places that you can actually experiment and you almost gamify it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to figure out where I can pull back here.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: No one's gonna really know.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's just an example, though, of seeing you'll be very surprised about what's actually real and what maybe you've made some assumptions about.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a really great point.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: We do make a lot of assumptions, especially if you're a people pleaser at your identity level, you forget the sovereignty and the authority that you have because you've kind of pushed your own boundaries back because people started pushing those boundaries, which leads to the communication that you had kind of brought up.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when you say things like, My boss is such a micromanager, it is interesting if you've never had those conversations with your boss.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like sometimes we're afraid to have those conversations because we don't have those boundaries.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you ever have those conversations with the people that you work with where you just blatantly say, Well, did you talk to your boss about X, Y, and Z?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes I feel like they're just like, No, you know what I mean?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, has that ever come up?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I'm a step before that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: What I am looking for is when people are complaining about something, I'm looking for the story they're telling themselves and what the meaning they're making of it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you say to me, my boss is a micromanaging, and then I'll ask, what do you mean by micromanaging?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like in behavior and action?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: They'll explain it.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I might say, Okay, can I step back and ask, is this how they treat you or is this how they treat everybody?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's how they manage.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's how they manage.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, boom.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right there.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now I'm gonna work with you saying, okay, so this isn't about you, this is about them.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: For whatever reason, they feel like this is the way they have to lead you.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: They have to tell you what to do, how to do it, blah blah blah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's get that off of you.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's nothing to do with you.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing to do.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're not telling you the meaning you made of that was they're telling me I can't do my job.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what they're telling you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: If they're treating everyone like that, or they're telling everyone, you don't know how to do your job, you know, that's but that's the them problem.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a you problem.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: That right there gets people thinking, like, oh, right, now we've messed with your meaning.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now you've backed up a little butt from that.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so then the next thing becomes okay, so let's think about the different ways to navigate this.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: It might be a conversation, it could be something like, what is the micromanaging really about?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: It might be like, I know for me, I'll tell you a personal one that I had.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a boss who liked to sit down and write emails together.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And at first I was like, Can I just send you the email and then you dial it up the way you want and send it out?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, we should sit down and do this together.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, it's I just think, you know, my way is really efficient.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, Well, don't you think we should do it together?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, No, not really.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But he was the boss.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'm like pissed, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: But what I realized for myself was like I'd watch and being like, Oh, you think like you enjoy this?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is what you're this is on you, this is something, this has nothing to do with me.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is your joy.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, got it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: So then I just realized I could just sit there and listen to him as he's doing the email.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not pissed anymore because I'm realizing, hey, I'm still getting paid.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is about your stuff.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna convince you that there's a more efficient way because you're not interested in efficiency, you're interested in your way.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just gonna be like, okay.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: In my mind, I'm just thinking, okay, dude, you want to pay me for this?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: That also means I'm still leaving at five o'clock.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that means if you're taking up an hour of my time, I'm not gonna absorb all my other work because you're taking up an hour of my time.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's where navigation starts to be really helpful when you start asking yourself those questions.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, stop absorbing what other people are doing and making it your problem.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like trying to figure out ways to get things off of you.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that answered your question.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I know I kind of like I knew you asked one thing, I end up over here.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely did because it leads to the identity level of how we're like what you were saying, absorbing and then how we're picturing whatever the situation is or the scenario, how we're kind of making it in our minds.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it really is interesting because when you take a step back and you realize that that manager is just a micromanager, that's what they do.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of at what I do at the organizational level, like what we were talking about in the beginning of changing the workplace culture.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the times, organizations promote really great task doers because they think that they'll make great managers, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: When at the end of the day, they make a great task manager because they're really great at task doing, right?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't make them a great leader.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make them a great mentor or anything of that nature.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just who they are.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're really great at micromanaging, they're not really great at delegating.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how they just treat everyone.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're at the identity level of taking that personally, like, oh, they just won't let me do my job.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: They think I'm terrible at my job.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they micromanage me.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: That employee is going to internalize that is I'm bad at my job.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: They don't trust me, they don't give me authority over my own job.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's going to lead to more burnout, which we think that burnout is overworking, when in reality, burnout is a lot deeper than just working too many hours.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not feeling appreciated, it's not having autonomy over your job.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Burnout has a lot more deeper layers.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting how we internalize other people's problems.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you take that step back and you're just like, you know what?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: If he wants to micromanage me, I'll just do 10 less things today.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I still get paid the same amount.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting how we add more work to ourselves if our boss is demanding less and expecting it's a really interesting dynamic, but they don't even understand that they're doing that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if we took a step back and we did less work, it almost would be pleasing to them.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when you had been working in the workforce for over a decade, and especially working with people in mental health recovery, what did that teach you about the gap between what the workplace expected, like what we were kind of just talking about, and then what that person actually needs?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So specifically, we worked in social services.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I the couple things around social services to understand was the culture of social services.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge of social services in this country, anyway, is that the person paying for the services is not the same person using the services.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: People who are paying for the services are funders and grantors, and people are using the services of service recipients.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Those two things aren't connected.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And because they're not connected, they have two different sets of what their priorities are.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: People who are paying for it want you to do everything for a dollar.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: They want you to do all these things for a dollar, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then people who are receiving services, if you're competent, they want you to do everything because they need stuff.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: They just need stuff and they want you to do everything for that dollar, right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're in these positions, social services, a lot of times, a lot of the social service jobs, the culture is built in and also attracts like the identity of I'm a good person, I'm gonna do good work, I'm gonna help everyone.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: No matter what people need, people need help and I'm gonna help them and I'm gonna do whatever I need to help them.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they equate this person needs help to I have to help them.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And when I start saying to people is like, this person may need help.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely, this person needs help.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm gonna ask you is like, do you have to do that every single time?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is where you start thinking about your job a little bit.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, like for the people that who I worked for, for instance, I had staff members who would be like, their jobs were their career coaches.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was their job to help people with resumes, look for work, et cetera.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: The people would also then ask them, oh, I have an issue with my medication.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I have an issue with housing, oh, I have an issue with, etc.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: What I would tell the coaches is that, okay, that's a real need.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's not your job though.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get a referral list going and give them a nice warm handoff so that they need housing issues, you bring them here.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: If they need a new therapist, you bring them there.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is not your job to sit with them and figure all that out.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're needing that, but that isn't your job.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you start being able to help people make those distinctions, it's a little bit easier to navigate what's yours and what's not, and then also understand the difference between what's your job, what's cultural, what may be the cultural standards and expectations of what you might be bringing to the situation.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like you might be bringing this need to help be people pleasing, as you said.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And social services actually lows people pleasers, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because people pleasers keep social services going.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like let's be really real.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Very true.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's how social services work.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's a people pleaser, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but if you're aware of those mechanisms, you can start to do what you need to do to take better care of yourself.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is very, very true.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see a lot of that, like volunteering, churches, you know, very much so preying on the people pleasers.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you hear a lot of this.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people here, if you're unhappy, just leave, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just quit your job.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: But people have bills and families and benefits, and you know, especially in this economy, it's just very difficult to just be able to just up and leave.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of reasons to stay.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, where would you begin with someone who just says, I need this job, what the hell am I supposed to do?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I love this because when you say you don't like your job, what don't you like about it?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're not clear, you'll do it again.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So keep creating the same thing until you get clear about what do you mean you don't like your job?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: What about is it you don't like?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's not working?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if you're not clear, you're gonna just create it again.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're gonna stay where you are, and that makes sense because a lot of people do have to stay in this economy.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: It isn't easy to just find a job like it was like even five years ago.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then also finding a job is about uprooting your whole schedule.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like your whole life switches up when you get to a new job.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: You have to like meet new people, figure everything out again.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you just don't have the energy for all that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You just want to be like, let me just keep what I got.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: So then we start working on what don't you like?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because in fact, I love it when people say, I hate this place, I hate everyone.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, okay, good.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: We like that because that emotion is just a signal.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just information is a signal that something in there isn't working.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that it's a terrible thing, emotions are good.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: If in fact, I have a hard time when people are just like, I have to do something different.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to do?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, it's everything's fine.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Give me something.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you gotta give me the emotion, and then we can get right to the heart of it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really great when people are just like, I hate this job, I hate these people, my boss is an asshole, my colleagues are jerk, you know.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, let's go.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and now for the those those are the entry points.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those are the entry points to where we can start to look at, to start looking for the way the kind of agency you have in navigating these people.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, I really what I think is really important is that to really get past the myth that if you change anything, you just have to blow everything up.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's just another, it's a different way of looking at things.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love about navigation.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's about I'm not gonna get this colleague of mine to do something different.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I just know he's gonna do this thing that drives me crazy.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it's information.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of it driving me crazy, it's information.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know they're not gonna do that.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, what can I do to put something in place knowing they're gonna do that?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's no longer this aggravation, it's just information.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And everything just becomes information you use to help you navigate.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's a whole different way of thinking about a workplace.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you actually bring up the point that if you don't get clear about what the reason is why you want to leave, you're just gonna repeat it.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it really, you could bring that into anything, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like your relationships, because if you're so unhappy, then it could be three years, five years, seven years, ten years, it doesn't matter.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as you go back into another workforce or workplace, the same thing is going to just produce the same results in another three, five, seven, ten years.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's at the end of the day, I believe, and we were talking in the beginning about bringing in your nervous system and somatic results, it's at an identity level.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like whatever is making you unhappy, it's going to just rear its ugly head.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You just have a new environment, so everything just feels nice, shiny, new until you know, Susie in the back corner work office rears her ugly head and starts fucking annoying you again.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's the same thing as Karen at the other workplace, you know?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because the thing is, you'll keep experiencing the same personality over and over and over again until you understand how to work with that personality.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: That personality is not going away.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if you're in the same type of work environment.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was working in the firefighter paramedic world, the first responder world.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same type of individuals.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I could go from one station to another station to another station.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get the same type of type A and a half B man personalities that kind of want to dominate.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you just have to learn how to work with the same whatever career that you're in.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I have that same type of personality, you know, like so they have to learn how to deal with a female version of that, you know.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Kudos to them.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, if you don't work on that inner healing of yourself, you're never going to be able to realize how to generate different results and be able to be as productive and successful as you want.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting how you talk about seeing the workplace as it actually is.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then how do we separate what's happening from what we keep on hoping will happen?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I call the distinction between realistic expectations and reasonable expectations.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Reasonable expectations are my boss should be able to support me.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: My boss should be giving me validation.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: My boss should be giving me directions.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: My boss should be, you know, coaching me around those things.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Those are reasonable expectations.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is very justified.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense that you know you're not wrong for wanting that or expecting that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: That is not anything to be ashamed of, or like you are not wrong.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is actually happening?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's the realistic?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: How has that person demonstrated themselves to be, to actually be?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's really important to say that because sometimes if when it comes to reasonable expectation, you have to affirm people that that's valid.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're not wrong.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're not wrong to expect that or want that or need that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: What we're saying is you can't get blood from a turnout.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can't make your boss be something they're not.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you may be they're sucky boss, they shouldn't have that job.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably right.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they do have the job.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they are your boss.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: So let's so now it's not just a variable, it's a fixed thing.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is your boss, right?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is who it is, the person you're reporting to.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: So what becomes available when you get out of the they should be, they should be, they are.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: There is a relief in that, especially when you're not negating how you feel about it.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're not saying you're wrong, you're not saying you shouldn't feel that way, you're not saying that it wouldn't be great if it was some different way.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're just saying, but it's not.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that way we can stop wasting time about it being something that it's not and getting to something that it actually is.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because the beauty of it is once you get to thinking about what something actually is, your mind untangles from the it should be, it should be, it's not.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: So now you've freed up your mind a little bit because now you're always going like this, it should be this way, it's not.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So now your mind's like, well, what are we gonna do about it?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right now you've opened up your mind and you left space for your mind to work on something else as opposed to this, you know, hamster wheel of it shouldn't be, that's why it shouldn't be, that's why it shouldn't be.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's why that to me is what the difference is when you can move from reasonable expectation to realistic expectation.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It allows your mind to stop to get off the hamster wheel, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And start allowing you to think about what I can do with what it is.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: So with that said, what would be something that's they would be able to pay attention to?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like, how do you also recognize when you're spending all this energy to change something that isn't yours while they're trying to, you know, push against that?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say I think great places to start when it comes to figuring out where you want to get some agency is exactly where we talked about earlier is like when you're saying it should be this way, if you're in a job that you hate, more than likely, there's a couple of things you're saying a lot all the time.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like something about your boss, something about your colleague, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know that person.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're just complaining about the same person for days, months, weeks, years, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they're never gonna change, right?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: So as a person who who you're if you're trying to get past the aggravation, you have to say to yourself in that moment, yeah, I've been complaining about this person for three years.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've just been bitching the whole time.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not changing.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, I'd be like, I don't even want the responsibility of changing this person.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even want that responsibility.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just want the responsibility of like navigating this so I can like I could have some peace.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's the one thing I think uh uh another I'm saying it out loud, I think one of the things around navigation is to be clear about what your outcome is and what you want to happen.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I personally look for peace.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm working someplace, and this is where I got to when I was in burnout and I had to work for like three and a half more years.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: One of my things was, well, I don't want a promotion.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's nobody here doing anything I want to do.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure where I'm gonna go, but I'll just keep doing this job until something happens and I get my public loan forgiveness, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my plan.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And my goal was I just want peace.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I want to do my job and I want peace.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the micromanaging boss, I just looked for ways to be like, how can I work with this person without changing who they are, without arguing I don't want to go to HR, I don't want to be aggravated, but I gotta deal with this person because that's my boss.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Then I started getting really clever about like when I said I gave you the thing about him writing emails, wanting to sit down and write emails together, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I literally said to myself, I had to get past my own ego and say, oh, he's not doing that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: He's not doing this thing because he thinks I can't write an email.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's doing this because for whatever reason he thinks this is productive.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now it's off of me.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just be like, okay, and as I said earlier, it's like, okay, it's not aggravating me.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still getting paid.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still leaving it five.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't know that, but that's okay.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not aggravated.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have peace because I know this isn't about me.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is not an indication of I'm doing a good job or a bad job.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is just something he's doing, and that's it.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting when you work through each situation like that to like saying, What am I making this mean?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it doesn't mean that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what is it actually?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It really frees you up.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: That relief is part of, I mean, when you make those distinctions, you'd be surprised how much relief is just in making those distinctions.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing has changed, just your perspective of, oh, I can change the meaning of this.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can actually say it doesn't mean this, it actually means that, or it could mean this.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: What does that open up for me?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I love about the navigation part of it.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you have to blow up anything or change anything or change anyone.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about asking really strategic questions.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's great, like I said, I think we started off with go with where you complain the most.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Start there.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Start where you what you complain the most about.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great place to start.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it is really interesting how we put we put our own pressure on ourselves for added more responsibility, like more frustration for added responsibility.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like during the tail end of my career as a firefighter paramedic, I was on light duty because my body had been telling me its own science.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I had the three surgeries in a year and a half.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was on light duty for basically the last year-ish of my career.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember getting myself so frustrated because of the tasks that I had to do, like the things that the chief was like putting on me, but then like him getting frustrated for it.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was just the weirdest dynamic.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was becoming like the secretary.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, I found myself needing to take a step back and being like, all right, none of these things are actually my responsibility.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if I fuck them up, it's really not my responsibility.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it doesn't, why am I getting frustrated at these things that I've never been trained to do?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been officially told I have to do them.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to do them at max capacity when I'm like on drugs post-surgeries, like limping around.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what am I doing?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I trying to go a hundred percent when I'm frustrating myself and all these things?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, stop.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I frustrating myself?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I could have used someone like you to tell me when I take a step back.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you getting so frustrated?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Going at max capacity when you don't have to go balls to the wall.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, none of this is your responsibility.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love this, I love this aspect because what you're bringing up is a couple of different things.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: One is yeah, I'm a big believer when it comes to high achievers, we're like high impact people.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: We want to make sure we're doing a good job, all of that.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we end up taking on more than we actually have to.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we also think we have to make everything 100%.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, right, yeah, no.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: I have this new thing I call tell people it's like Dutch six it.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: You remember Dutch Six?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, tell me what it is.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Dutch six, it's a cultural issue in the Netherlands.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's in school.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So in school, you can get a grade from one to ten.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Ten is the highest grade, one is the lowest, six is passing.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Dutch culture says six is fine.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do the least amount of work, get to the six, and you're fine.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: This whole maximizing to a 10, what's all that for?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would rather spend an hour, get my six, and spend five hours getting a 10 and use the rest of the time playing with my friends.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I tell people like, so look at these different things that, like, that you might be giving your balls to the wall so that maybe can you anybody can Dutch six it?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you pulled back and did a six on this, is anyone really gonna notice?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I like the Dutch six.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's better than C's and D's get degrees because I feel like when you say Dutch six it, it just sounds a little better.
• 31:22
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just about like, you know, how do you what's the most important thing to spend your 100% energy on and what can you Dutch six it?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it wouldn't really make a difference because when you're trying to do everything at 100%, it does make it harder on you.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the other part I also talk about is so let's say you give 20% of your energy to this task, okay?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: You give 20% of your energy.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's 100% of the 20%.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I gave you 100% of the 20%.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to think about it that way, that's fine too.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you got all of my 20%.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100% of my 20%.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that's great.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great mentality.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have to lock that in.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: You gave I gave 100% of my 20%.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, we only use five percent of our brain, so our brain's giving us a hundred percent of its five percent.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, there you go.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that this whole conversation, I feel like we could be going on forever.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: But for the person who's listening and they're thinking, yeah, this is me, but I still have to go to work tomorrow.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is one thing that they could do this specific week that they could start seeing their choices more clearly?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple places that I always start with people is one, start looking at the things that actually aggravate you.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like the moment your pressure goes up, that thing you're saying all the time, this shouldn't be this way, that's where you start.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you start.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And start shifting that reasonable to realistic.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: You want to move yourself over from this should be this way to it's not, it's this way.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't agree with it, I don't like it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it's okay.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying this is what it is.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is what it is.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: How can I navigate this better?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: How can I navigate this?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not negotiate with it, navigate it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Think of it like a map.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to get from here to peace.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just say your destination for work is peace.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: How can I be in this position, navigate this, and get to my peace?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those things you can start to ask yourself those questions.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you start finding things like being aware that you might experience feelings of, I know for me, sometimes one thing people often experience is they feel foolish or ashamed when they realize they were part of the conflict or part of the reason something wasn't working.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say up front, that's part of this.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's no reason to feel bad about it.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: But when you realize I've been doing that myself, yeah, that's fine.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is perfectly within human foibles.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we do.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're meaning-making machines, but we do.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that you can change the meaning, that's what human beings do.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: You are not foolish, you are not stupid, you are not blind, you are a human being.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's all part of it.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So start with those things of saying like all those things.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second question I would also ask that helps make people make a really good distinction is are you trying to maintain what you have or are you trying to get a promotion?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're trying to get a promotion, that means you have to do a little bit more maneuvering, you have to figure out in your environment what it takes to get promotions.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't want a promotion and you're just trying to maintain what you have, you have a lot of agency there because you might find some invisible labor or things you're doing extra that you think is helping you, like you're in promotion mode, or really you want to be in maintenance mode.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: So things like if you you might feel less inclined to like, I know for me it was like if I was expected at the fundraiser dinner, I wouldn't go.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Afterwards, like, oh, I'm so sorry, I wasn't feeling well.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wouldn't make it a big deal, but oh no, I'm so sorry.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: What are you gonna do?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like in my mind, I'm like, what are you gonna do about it?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, right, I'm doing my job.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want a promotion.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, you know, and you start thinking these different ways of how can I show up in a way that's like, you know, it's not gonna make that much of a difference to the actual job itself, but it would take a lot off your plate.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So those are some things to think about in terms of how to start thinking about where you can find your agency.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I do love, I want to highlight the fact that you brought up the whole if you're part of the problem or if you feel that shame or guilt, you can always change the meaning of everything and you can always change your behavior at any point.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's any time where you feel like, oh, I recognize myself as the micromanager that might be contributing to some type of burnout, at any point you can change that behavior, you could change the meaning.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is to change the workplace culture, our goal is to change the way that we view the workplace.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you had brought that up.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: I want to highlight that you have a two-week practice called Make Work Work for people who need or choose to stay in their job and want to have a more sustainable way to approach them.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for you to tell them what that looks like, who it's for, and where listeners can also find you.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, this entire conversation we really covered what make work is about.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically that you have a job, you want to keep it, you're just trying to figure out how to approach your job from a more sustainable place.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Our work together is a thinking partnership, and what we do together is we start developing a map for you to look at your job as a map, as opposed to this thing you're in and all these people that you hate or all these things that you can't stand.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to pull back and view your job as a map and navigate.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: You figure out and decide what move do you want to make?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to reduce your hours?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: What are you exactly trying to accomplish to help you make the work better for you?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then we figure out different ways for you to experiment what you can do to make that happen.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think you said earlier about the time.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want to work seven to seven, I want to work nine to five.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: We start experimenting.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Come in eight to six, see what happens.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's start really kicking the tires on what you believe, what you believe things really are.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: We start experimenting.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, my job with you for those two weeks is start seeing your job as a map to be navigated.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the two weeks, what happens is you have an idea of where you have agency, and then you decide do I want to kind of do this thing?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to try this thing?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to judge this?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: You just are looking for ways to get your agency back in a very self-accommodating, stealthful way.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not asking anyone to change, you're not trying to change the workplace, you're just trying to figure out how you can move better.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I would also say, too, that the people that I work with are really about in the process of kind of like decentering work and making work work for their life, right?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes, you know, when it comes to work itself, sometimes we make work the center, we make everything else work around work.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I mean.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you see that in burnout a lot.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's what often ends up happening to people.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what my work really helps people do is like make the center of your life with your life and make work support that.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of when you decenter that, you have to navigate it work a little bit differently.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so just know that the work is really about that decentering process.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's about looking at your entire life for those two weeks and going, how does the work fit?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Where doesn't it fit?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then we figure out where you have agency to move and budge.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then where can they find you as well?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Best place is my website.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's my name, Lene Brown, L-Y-N-N-A-E Brown.com.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm also on LinkedIn.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: I post every day.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So come say hi.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Lene, so much for coming on and helping us look at the choices that can get buried under, well, this is just how it works.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for everyone listening, I want to leave you with one question.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: How can this job work better within your life?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to figure out your entire future before you take on that question seriously.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I will definitely put Lene's links and information about make work work in the show notes and description below.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if this conversation hit home, send it to a person who keeps saying, I hate my job, but I can't leave.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: We all know those people.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: It might be you.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: So give them something more useful than just quit.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: We all hate that advice sometimes.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: So follow or subscribe to Hustle Rebels wherever you're listening.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're watching on YouTube, hit like and subscribe, leave a comment or review.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: I also love to know what made you stop and think.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Your life is happening right now.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Your job gets a place in it, but it doesn't get the whole damn thing.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll see you guys next time.