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Aaron Francis Is Laravel's New VP of Marketing & Community · The Laravel Podcast

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The Laravel Podcast is brought to you by Tighten,
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your friendly neighborhood Laravel experts.
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Check us out at tighten.com
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and also by other sponsors you will hear about later in the episode.
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Hey, and welcome back to Laravel Podcast Season 7.
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I'm your host, Matt Stauffer, CEO of Tighten.
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And in this season, I'm joined every episode by a member of the Laravel team.
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And today I'm talking to somebody that you very likely know from the internet,
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but not usually as a member of the Laravel team.
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Now, if you are following up with everything that's going on at Laracon
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or any latest announcements, you probably already know that Aaron is a member
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of the Laravel team. But when I'm recording it today,
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he's not even there yet. And nobody but me and him and a few people
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at Laravel actually know about this.
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So Aaron.
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Aaron Francis, the new VP of marketing at Laravel would you say hi to
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the people and tell everybody a little about what you are going to
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be doing at Laravel when you actually start?
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Surprise. ~ yeah.
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~ my name is Aaron Francis.
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I am, ~ I guess as you're listening to this,
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I am the VP of marketing and community at Laravel,
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which is weird to say
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Name and claim it.
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because, you know, I'm not right now as we're recording,
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but in like four short days, I will have
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Wow.
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my first day at Laravel Holdings Incorporated.
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Wow.
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So yeah, a lot, you know, a lot to cover.
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~ but just like super high level.
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~ I am coming in ~ to fill the vacant VP of marketing spot.
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And so there's a full there's a full ~ highly qualified team of,
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you know, ~ contributors and execution people,
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and I'm coming in to help kind of like lead and guide
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some of the high level messaging and how we position Laravel and that kind of stuff.
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So I am extremely excited.
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~ you know, I would tell you more about what I've been doing,
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but I haven't started yet. But I have lots of ideas and I know I know where we're
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Good. Yeah.
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headed, so we can talk about
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any of that.
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I love that. And I I do want to talk because you mentioned marketing and community,
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which I wasn't even familiar about.
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So I want to talk about that. But before we get there,
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we're not allowed to talk that because the first question that we always
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ask is what is the story of you coming to Laravel?
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And you have a a storied history of your public sharing
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of your journey as a programmer,
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as an entrepreneur, as a creator.
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But not everybody has followed all of it.
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Not everybody
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listens to your wonderful podcast,
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Mostly Technical. And if they don't,
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they absolutely should. ~ not everybody has trailed,
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you know, tracked what you've been doing prior to then.
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So if somebody doesn't know the Aaron Francis story,
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can we start with the Aaron Francis story and then lead into how
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did you transition from your most recent venture to actually coming
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to work at Laravel?
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Yeah, totally. I'll I'll breeze through some of the old stuff.
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I come I come by, you know, PHP and Laravel pretty honestly.
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I started when I was like twelve or thirteen using
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Right.
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PHP. Picked up Laravel, I think,
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around the four dot something series.
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So I I wanna say that's like twenty thirteen that I picked up Laravel
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for the first time. so been in the Laravel game for
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Goodness gracious, 13 years now in the PHP game for 20,
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~ which makes me thou sound a thousand years old.
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and then as far as like my career,
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it ~ it has been a varied career,
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~
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Mm-hmm.
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which I think actually serves me pretty well.
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I got my start as a big four tax accountant.
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So I worked at Ernst Young and I was an accountant.
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Very sexy.
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I
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Am a former CPA. I did get
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Mm-hmm.
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my license and then was like, this sucks.
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I'm out of here. ~ so I lasted one year and then went to be
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a software developer with no qualifications whatsoever,
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and it's worked out fine so far.
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most recently, so I did a like two-year stint at a database company called
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Planet Scale. ~ and then for the past two and a half years,
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I've been fully independent. And so I've been
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Doing ~ database education, selling desktop apps,
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AI education, all kinds, all kinds of stuff,
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honestly. ~
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All kinds of things. Yeah.
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just all over the place. And so that's been going,
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I mean, that's been going well.
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Like I've put, you know, I've got f four kids and a wife who works very hard
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but does not make any money, and I've managed to survive.
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And so like it's been working great.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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the downside is it's just it's very stressful,
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as you know, running a business.
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It's incredible.
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Incredibly stressful. ~ and so,
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you know, I've I've been doing this solo thing for a while.
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~ and then most recently,
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Laravel did a roadshow in Dallas,
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which is where they like
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Mm-hmm.
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go around and demo stuff and Taylor's there.
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And before the roadshow, Taylor reached out,
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because this was just after the previous VP,
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Cynthia, left. ~ he reached out and was like,
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hey man, we need you. And I was like,
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what are talking about?
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Ha.
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It was like, you know, Cynthia's gone.
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We need you to be VP of marketing.
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And I I was like, what are you talking about,
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man? ~ and so, you know, he gave me the pitch.
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~ and then in Dallas we we talked about it some more,
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because that's where I live. ~ so we talked about it some more.
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~ and it just like everything just felt great.
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I mean, he gave me the the reason he was thinking about.
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hiring me or wanted to hire me because of course I'm like,
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brother, I've never been a director of marketing.
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Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
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Like, what are we talking about here?
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and, you know, he recently did a podcast with you where he's talking about kind
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of getting getting his edge or his mojo back and like feeling feeling like
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he can make his own like make his own calls and he doesn't have to rely on,
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you know, the quote unquote professionals in his words.
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And I feel like this is maybe a part of that where he's just like
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Yeah.
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We need somebody that's been in the game to talk,
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like who knows the community, who knows the products,
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who knows the space to to come and and help us.
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Because like the people on my team,
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I can't do what they do. I have like they're they are way more qualified
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to do the job that they're doing than I am.
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I can't do it. I have no idea.
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They're giving me all these acronyms and I'm like,
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I don't know what that means. but I think what I can do is offer like
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a cohesive and coherent vision.
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for where we should go, how we should talk about things,
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ideas for how we can reach people.
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And so I think that that is gonna be my mandate coming in.
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Yeah. And I I want to talk about that mandate in a bit,
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but I want to kind of stay back with ~ the early age of Aaron.
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You have a lot of experiences that have led you to
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be a broadly capable person that had you just been
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a programmer, just been an entrepreneur,
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just been a CPA, just even been somebody training in marketing,
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they would not necessarily have all kind of given you the level of breadth that
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you have. How do you even tell people what you do?
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Are you do you talk about being an educator,
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a programmer,
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I
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an entrepreneur like what's
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I always start with that's a good question,
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~ which kind of like sets the table of guys,
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Yeah. Yes.
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this is about to get weird. ~
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right now, depending on who right now,
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depending on who I talk to, I'll either go with ~ software developer
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or developer educator. Though that's probably depending on the audience
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and you know how impressive I want to sound,
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that that's probably what I would say.
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but I have been I've been a CPA.
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I've been a marketing data analyst at a public company.
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I've been a CTO and COO at a services company.
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I've been a developer educator.
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Now I'm independent and you know,
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I've been a line programmer just like in in the business.
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And so yeah, I think all of it is kind of instructive for where I'm at now.
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I mean, running running your own business gives you this whole other side of
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trade-offs and pragmatism and just this experience of like w
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if I don't sell, I can't eat.
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And so there's a there's there's just things you learn doing that.
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But then going back to COO of a property tax firm,
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I mean, I started there as the only developer and I left five years later
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as managing the whole company because the three owners wanted to step back.
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And so I was managing, you know,
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Total thirty, forty people. ~ so I've just kind of been all over the place.
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But these days when people ask,
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I'm like, that's a good question,
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man.
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Yes.
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Well, and it's funny because I think ~ Aaron Francis has a reputation.
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And I say your name that way because the reputation is attached to Aaron Francis
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the entity, right? And Aaron Francis the entity and Aaron Francis a person
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are very related and there's a lot of overlap.
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But Aaron Francis the Entity is sweetheart of the internet,
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nice guy saying nice things with his nice family behind him,
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and which is all true, right? Those are all true things about Aaron.
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But I do think there's an element of people can
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People love to underestimate the nice guy,
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right? Like as a
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Yes.
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as a fellow nice guy, I I I love that that's actually something we can
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at times take advantage of because people underestimate kind of what we're capable
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of doing. But it does lead people,
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and I've never heard a single person,
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and of course, granted, I only know like three people who know that you're taking
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this role, but I could imagine there's some people who don't even understand
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you just mentioned being a COO of a company,
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running the whole thing, managing 30 or 40 people.
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That's not a part of the Aaron Francis nice guy public image,
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right?
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No, yeah.
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He's just
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a sweetheart who teaches you about,
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you know, things with his chalkboard in the background.
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And you know what
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Mm.
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I mean? So it's fun to me to see ~ that there is a ruthless
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is not the right word because that implies any ~ unkindness.
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There's a level of capability and ~ what is the word?
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You've you've got a lot of stuff in your back pocket.
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You have a lot of experiences,
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you have a lot of capability that.
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Are not a part of what you publicly flaunt.
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And you mentioned even you well,
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how I talk about myself depends on how much I feel like I need to impress people.
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You know, when I first met
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Mm-hmm.
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my wife, she got so annoyed that I introduced myself to a programmer
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as a programmer everywhere. She's You're a CEO of a multi-million dollar tech
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Mm. Mm-hmm.
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company, and you say I'm a programmer.
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It's not the same thing. It's
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like, well, you know, like what did they need to know?
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What do they need to see? So anyway,
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I am very excited to see you in this role in many ways,
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which we can talk about in a second.
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But when we're talking about the past,
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I think it's very fun to think about the fact that the public Aaron Francis persona.
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does not contain a large portion of what is going to make you really good
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at this job. And yet all of your public reputation will also play a big role
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in why you are going to be so effective in this job.
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Because you have curated a way that people look at you that will help
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you do marketing, but also publicly and prior than privately,
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you've developed a set of skills that will also allow you to take
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on a large corporate role to deal with all the finagling,
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the managing of people or whatever.
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Mm.
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So ~
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I don't know where I don't think you need to respond to that,
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but it's just it's fun for me.
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Well, I will.
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Yeah.
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and I I super appreciate all of that,
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truly. I think ruthless is a word I would accept.
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I'm f I am totally fine with that.
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I think the the combo words that I will typically use is ruthlessly strategic.
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I think
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Mm-hmm.
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there is a level of like operational strategy that
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I feel like I am constantly employing.
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and you'll see this a lot more in like my long form soft skills writing than
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you will in just like tweets or anything.
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And you see this, you see this some in some of the ~ soft talks that I've given,
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talking about basically, ~ you know,
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if you were to boil it down, it's how to win.
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Like that's a lot of what this like put your work out there,
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see what happens, like keep going.
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You know, I gave a keynote a while back about.
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Like five strategies for success.
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And they're all just like these,
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these very like incisive, you have to operate in the world as it exists.
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You have to understand what the rules are,
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and you have to play by the rules,
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even if they're stupid. And so I do think like my experience in
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a big four accounting firm, a public company,
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a small services firm has shown me maybe a broader swath of like how.
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companies operate, how people operate,
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how ~ employees and bosses and executives and so given our shared,
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you know, programmer brain, we can apply we can turn that and apply that
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to like human interaction and be like,
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~ okay, well, the people that continue to win are the people that make their work
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public. What if I just did that?
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And so
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I I do feel like I have a lot of those ~ like shorthands or strategies that I've
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accumulated over many, many years.
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Yeah. ~ a shared friend of ours,
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Caleb Porzio and I have talked about a lot over the years,
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especially when he first started at Tighten about the distinction between
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~ being good and caring and teaching and educating and helping us with the internet,
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knowing it's going to help you succeed,
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versus choosing that purely because it's gonna help you to succeed.
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And it's a really fine line of ~ am I pretending to be a good person
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on the internet because I know that's gonna make me successful?
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Or am I delighted to find overlaps between my values of being a good person
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and a kind person that also
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Correct.
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are strategic for the future of my ability to put food on,
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you know, my kids' table or whatever.
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So
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Yep.
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Yep. Yeah. And I think, you know,
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while we're here, we got all the time in the world,
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so let's talk about
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Yes.
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whatever we want. While we're here,
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all of that comes from, and you know this,
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we share a similar past, I remain,
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but all of that comes from my Christian faith.
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Like I operate by a very strict moral code.
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And I'm not an idiot, right? And so like
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Right.
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two things, I think two things can be true.
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Like the the reason that I operate the way that I do is because of my like
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very deep seated beliefs. I also think that like
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it is better, even in a purely like in even in a purely secular sense,
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it is better to be optimistic and helpful than cynical and a jerk.
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Yeah. Yes.
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And
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like it is the best thing in the world when what I believe
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to be strategically optimal
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And what I believe is core to my being are the same thing.
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Yep. Right. Yes.
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Like that is
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that's the best. I don't have to like I don't have to choose.
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And I believe
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Yeah.
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a lot of those things that I'm talking about are strategically optimal
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and also are firmly like deep seated in my beliefs.
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And so that ends up being really nice.
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And that's one of the reasons why it's great to be in a le position
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of leadership in a community like Laravel,
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because a lot of those things are deep seated in the community's values as well.
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Right. You could become the VP of marketing somewhere else and believe that those
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things are all valuable, but those things all be countercultural to
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the space that you're in, but they are not here.
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Right. Like when people come from the outside,
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one of the things they go is, you all just like helping each other.
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You all just like help teaching each other.
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Yep, that's one of the reasons why this is all gonna make
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Yep.
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sense here.
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That's what I said last year on you know at the opening thing of Laracon
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is like this group of people is just a just the humble builders.
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All we want to do is build and make things and we really well,
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we argue about final classes and all this other
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Yeah.
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goofy stuff, but we really
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Just want to show off the stuff that we've built and generally everyone's really
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happy that you're building things.
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And that is like that's really nice.
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That's a great part about this community for sure.
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Yeah,
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absolutely.
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16:09
okay. So we've talked about kind of your your experience
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of coming through to Laravel, but I now want to speak to the people who
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do listen to Mostly Technical.
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And I'm sure there's gonna be a mostly technical episode about it,
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but I still want to be the one to be able to ask you.
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You we have followed through a journey of you ~ leaving your previous ~ role,
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going out on your own together with a business partner,
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your business partner going and getting a role.
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So you're on your own.
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And we're hearing
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Mm.
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you and Ian go back and forth about am I going to be a database educator?
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Yep.
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~
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fighting the the proposal to be an AI educator,
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finally coming around saying an AI educator,
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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building software with the intention of it just being a part of the education,
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and then the software taking off,
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and now you're a software guy.
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And even just as recently as what three,
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four weeks ago, bringing on basically a president of the company who's gonna
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A full time employee, yeah. Mm-hmm.
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be right, who's
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gonna be your boss. And it was just like it was the beginning of the
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the the next arc of Aaron. ~ and
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Mm-hmm.
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I
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I am so, so excited. I think you're a perfect fit for this role and
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I couldn't be happier for the Laravel community.
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But I am curious for you, did that kind of call from Taylor feel like
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a little bit of like a record scratch?
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Like did you have to have some real did you were you and Jennifer talking until
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a hundred percent. Yes. ~ yes,
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three AM, figure these things out,
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you know?
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of course. I mean, yeah, so for for the folks that that don't listen,
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I I hired a full time W two I am responsible
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for this woman's livelihood. And so this was like two weeks before Taylor DM'd me.
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And so she she and I worked together for I wanna say five years.
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I've known her for maybe eight or nine.
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~
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And she was just bored of property tax,
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which hoomst among us.
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Yeah.
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and so she came to work for me.
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After seven years at one company,
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Yeah.
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she came to work for me. And then Taylor called and is like,
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Hey, do you want a job? And I'm like,
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brother, no. I I I don't.
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What are you doing to me?
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~ And so, you know,
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I told Sam my ~ employees is Sam,
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I told Sam right away, I was like,
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Man, this happened, this is crazy.
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And she was like, I just started here,
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man. ~ but we're she and I are super good friends.
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And so I was just talking it through with her.
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And it started out with like, nah,
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there's no way. ~ and then, you know,
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the more I thought about it, I was like,
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you know, I was like, This this is an incredible opportunity.
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Like, I have been in this world for whatever we said,
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a decade or more. ~ I've always thought at some point it'd be nice to like
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Go to the mothership, you know?
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Yeah.
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~
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and it just never really worked out for whatever reason.
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And this felt like a real like this felt like the one.
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Like I don't think there would be you know,
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I I d I didn't wanna do DevRel or lead DevRel.
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But this felt like the thing I wanted to do.
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And there's nothing else, like I don't want Taylor's job,
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I don't want Tom's job. There's nothing else that could be better than this.
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Right. Yeah. You're not holding out for
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some other role that's even yeah
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No, like I'm not
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I'm not trying to I'm not trying to one up him.
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I'm just like, no, that is the top.
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Like that's where I want to go.
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That's it. That's the one. And so,
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you know, I I told Taylor my first response to him in Dallas when we finally
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got in person was like, Man, I just hired a full-time employee.
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And he said, ~ I know, we'll hire her too.
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And I was like, ~ Okay.
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That changes everything.
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Well, if my Sam is taken care of.
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That's the biggest blocker for sure.
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And then there's the question of am I am I giving up on my dreams?
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Like that's a real question. ~
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Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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and it's a it's a hard one because,
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you know, I've been doing this for two and a half years by myself.
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This is the the past two and a half years is not the first time I've built
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and sold things, right? But this is the first time in a long time that I have
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had no W-2, no health insurance,
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Yes, no day job, yeah.
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no nothing.
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~
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And it really does feel like it's kind of starting,
20:19
like it's starting to click, it's starting to work.
20:22
and so the question is, ~ am I am I giving up on my dreams?
20:27
And I
20:27
Mm-hmm.
20:28
I had to wrestle with that. I mean,
20:30
honestly, like there's the internal,
20:33
am I letting myself down? And then there's the more insidious,
20:37
like, are what are people gonna think of me?
20:40
Like, are they gonna think I'm a failure?
20:40
Yeah. Yeah.
20:42
And
20:43
That part, that second part was easy to write off after about an hour
20:48
or two of like, you know what?
20:50
It doesn't matter what other people think.
20:52
I don't freaking care. Like,
20:52
Yeah. Yeah.
20:54
I gotta put kids through college.
20:55
I gotta sleep at night. Like, if they think I failed,
20:59
I I don't care. Like, I just I just want to be happy.
21:00
Yeah. Yeah.
21:02
~
21:03
so that part was easy to write off.
21:04
The harder part was: am I letting myself down?
21:08
Like, am I selling myself short here?
21:10
Mm-hmm.
21:11
And
21:12
It really came back that like
21:16
I I don't think that this is in any way
21:21
a a downgrade for like what I want out of my life.
21:23
Agreed. Yeah.
21:25
Like
21:25
I don't think there's any I don't think it is morally more superior
21:31
to sell software and videos versus go lead an organization.
21:38
And so I kinda I kind of had to separate like what do you want out of your life
21:43
and what are the like
21:45
what are the the contributing vectors to that thing.
21:48
And I just kept looking at this job and I was like,
21:51
this is in fact an upgrade. Like,
21:53
Yeah. I love that.
21:54
this is
21:55
and then of course there's all the ancillary stuff of like,
21:58
~ I don't have to figure out where the next big deal is coming from.
22:02
Like I don't have to go to another database company and say,
22:05
give me, you know, a bunch of money to produce a course on your thing
22:08
and then suffer over the course.
22:10
And so there's like all that ancillary stuff of
22:13
Yeah.
22:13
You know, the thing you're leaving behind,
22:15
you know all of the warts and you're like,
22:17
I don't wanna I don't wanna do some of that anymore.
22:19
But I think the real crux of the thing was this is in fact,
22:23
I think in my story, a huge step up.
22:27
Like this it's just not I think on the internet there's this whole like
22:32
~ like I am a rock,
22:35
I am an island, I made it on my own.
22:37
Yeah.
22:37
Like
22:38
you know, I am running a business and many of our friends,
22:40
you included, run very successful businesses.
22:42
And it's like, that's really cool.
22:44
~ but I just kept coming back to this is what I want to do.
22:49
And it's like, is that enough?
22:50
Yeah. Yeah. Can that not be a good enough reason?
22:51
I think that's enough. I think it is.
22:53
Yeah. So and then,
22:54
Yeah. Yeah.
22:56
you know, Jennifer was super sweet,
22:58
my wife the whole time, and was trying not to like not to push me in
23:02
a direction I didn't want to go.
23:03
~ and her you know
23:07
you know how they can just speak to you,
23:09
you know? ~ her her like one sentence was,
23:13
~ I am a little bit worried about your stress levels.
23:17
That was that was like her one sentence.
23:18
Yeah. That's cut to the core of you.
23:20
And yeah,
23:23
'cause you know, if you've listened to mostly technical,
23:25
I've slept in the office a bunch of times and still gotten up to go home
23:29
and take the kids to school. Like it's no easy walk out here.
23:32
It's a hard it's a hard thing to do.
23:34
~
23:35
But all good things are hard in some regards.
23:37
But after I took the job, she was like,
23:39
I am so glad. I wanted I am so thankful.
23:45
And after I took the job, I like,
23:47
you know, this was the same time the World Cup was going on.
23:50
I like had many nights where I didn't even open my computer after I got home.
23:55
And Jennifer was like, I haven't seen you like this in five years.
23:59
Like, this is incredible.
23:59
Yeah. Yeah.
24:02
and so I do think, you know
24:05
I do think after having accepted,
24:07
I started to then realize a lot of what I had been like putting myself through
24:12
the past two or three years. but the the real crux of it was this is what
24:19
I wanna do, man. Let's freaking do it
24:20
Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. I love
24:23
that. And it's I I'm glad you mentioned I was going to mention that thing about like
24:27
I imagine that working at Laravel you're not going to be in the office
24:31
at Saturday night, you know, working until you fall asleep with a laptop
24:36
and then wake up at five o'clock in the morning to go home and pick people
24:39
up and take them to church. Like there's
24:39
Yeah.
24:40
a lot of, you know, and there's things you share publicly,
24:42
but also just as your friend, like I've seen you and I've seen you like stressed
24:45
and pressed. And you say, I know,
24:48
I know what I'm doing.
24:49
This is so that I can set myself and my family up for the future.
24:52
And I totally honor and respect that because we've all as builders
24:55
had those moments. But also coming out of that moment is one of
25:00
the biggest graces and reliefs to say,
25:02
I can just watch this movie with my wife.
25:04
I can just watch this World Cup game.
25:06
I can just go to sleep. I can sleep in my own bed or whatever.
25:08
I know. I know. And it's the whole
25:09
So ~ I'm delighted for you. Go ahead.
25:12
thing about like like obviously,
25:16
you know, I hope I'm not up till two and then back up at five doing this job.
25:21
There will be a lot of crunch times,
25:22
but it's the whole it's like you understand this more than anyone.
25:25
It's the I'm responsible for revenue and costs and product
25:30
Yeah.
25:31
and marketing and admin and healthcare
25:33
Yeah. Yeah.
25:36
and ever and so
25:37
Like being able
25:37
Every buck stops with you.
25:39
being able to just scope my brain down to this is the problem.
25:44
The problem is the marketing sphere.
25:47
That's it. We have
25:47
Yeah. Yeah.
25:49
a sales team. We have an HR person.
25:52
We have customer support. Like,
25:52
Yep. Yep.
25:54
and so I I will be able, and I think this is a huge mental relief for me,
26:01
is I'll be able to dedicate all of my brain cycles towards one problem.
26:06
Because now I I dedicate brain cycles to all of the problems.
26:12
And it's like
26:12
Yes.
26:13
nothing is ever quite as satisfying as it should be because I always feel
26:17
in the back of my head, like there's a background process that just woke
26:21
up and is like, By the way, you haven't done bookkeeping in eight months,
26:25
Yeah.
26:25
and I'm like, ~
26:26
F. And you know, and so I
26:28
Yeah.
26:29
just think the single mindedness is
26:33
Part of that mental relief. I don't expect it to be easy by any means,
26:38
but I do expect to be single-minded and there's like a great,
26:41
there's a great comfort in focus of just being like,
26:45
this is my job. There are a lot of other things here that are not my
26:49
job and I'm happy to weigh in on,
26:51
but those really aren't my job.
26:53
And I'm not gonna try to, you know,
26:54
grab territory. I'm just gonna do my job the absolute
26:57
Yes.
26:58
best I can, and that's gonna be really,
27:00
really satisfying.
27:02
I love it. And one of the things that's good about that is you're at
27:05
a senior enough level that you I don't anticipate,
27:09
and I'm curious if you feel differently.
27:10
I don't anticipate you being in a point where you're bored,
27:12
right? Like it's not as if like I have this single minded focus on
27:13
No, I don't think so.
27:15
one thing and that's
27:15
all I do, and now I'm stuck doing that same thing for the next ten years.
27:18
Like there's a lot of different things to do.
27:20
Yeah. Yeah, I think both ~ I think in in in two regards,
27:26
so I've I've already started trying to meet and greet people inside of Laravel.
27:31
~ and so I've talked to maybe a dozen or more people now.
27:36
Everyone on on my team and then,
27:38
you know, scattered people across other teams.
27:40
And there's there's a lot to do.
27:42
Like in a company that is growing that fast and that it's gotten that
27:46
big so quickly, there's a lot of ~
27:49
There's lot of internal stuff to figure out.
27:51
And that's one place my Sam is gonna be a huge help is she's the operations wizard.
27:56
And so she's gonna start with me in marketing.
27:59
and so I think even just when you look at like organizational behavior,
28:05
which is like the technical term for it,
28:07
the the operations inside the company,
28:10
there's a lot to be done. just even forget like talking to the world,
28:17
just in
28:18
How does the team communicate?
28:19
Where do these things go? How do we make sure that there's
28:22
no friction between handoffs? Like all of those things.
28:25
There's just there are systems and processes that need to be built out.
28:28
And that excites me. I I love a system.
28:31
but then you think about like what is what is
28:35
the vision of Laravel,
28:38
the company? And the vision is grand,
28:42
as it should be,
28:43
Yeah.
28:43
and how do we get there?
28:44
Yeah.
28:45
Whoa,
28:45
that's a lot. We got a long way to go.
28:47
Like we gotta expand. We gotta we gotta gain mind share outside of our,
28:52
you know, our true believers. We have to care for the true believers
28:56
at the same time. We can't abandon anyone.
28:59
And so there's a lot to figure out internally and there's a
29:03
lot to do externally. And so I don't think I'll be
29:07
bored for many, many years. Hopefully I'll I'll
29:10
I love that.
29:10
be I'll be ~ gainfully occupied mentally and then I'll retire and that'll be it.
29:15
Yes. Great. Love that.
29:15
'Cause you know, we'll sell for the
29:17
cabillion dollars or whatever.
29:20
okay. So I think we can now finally actually talk about the job.
29:25
You said ~ VP of marketing and community.
29:29
And one of the things you named here,
29:30
which I'm really grateful for you're pointing at,
29:32
is that we want to A reach out to a whole new audience and a whole new mindset,
29:37
and also B consider the existing folks as a part of as as important of a part
29:42
of you know, the community as possible.
29:43
And and that's I feel like that's a hard line to walk.
29:46
And hearing that your title has both marketing and community in it.
29:50
Mm-hmm.
29:50
tells
29:50
me that there's some real intentionality about that.
29:53
Can you talk to me about kind of what's the purview of the role?
29:57
What have you been sent out to do?
29:59
And how does it being marketing and community together in one,
30:02
what what does that reflect?
30:04
Yeah, totally. So, just to kind of give you like a a map of the territory,
30:10
I've got I've got events,
30:13
so I've got, you know, Laracons,
30:15
Laravel lives, that kind of stuff.
30:17
DevRel, so that's all,
30:21
you know, public videos, Discords,
30:23
live streams, all of that. Demand Gen,
30:26
which is more like more on the paid side of the house,
30:29
product marketing, content, all all of that kind of stuff falls under
30:34
my domain. And so yeah,
30:38
the way that I'm like the way that I'm thinking about the future
30:43
of Laravel is we have gotten Taylor
30:49
has done an incredible job basically building a movement,
30:55
frankly. I mean when
30:56
Yeah.
30:56
you have tattoos and children named Laravel,
30:59
it's a movement. built building a movement building
31:03
Based on a few core beliefs. You know,
31:06
I think I'd be curious what he says,
31:09
but I I think pragmatism is one.
31:11
I think like ~ the the artisan ethos is one.
31:16
Like we care, we care about things.
31:19
We care about the back of the cabinet,
31:21
as he likes to say, or the back of the dresser,
31:23
maybe. and I think that has built this incredible movement
31:28
of of people who are like,
31:32
I want to find a home to build things and ship things.
31:36
And most of those people, I wouldn't say all of them,
31:39
most of them would classify themselves as craftspeople,
31:43
right? I'm a craftsman, I'm a craftswoman.
31:45
Like I care deeply about these little things.
31:49
~ and that is our community, right?
31:52
That's what that's who's gonna show up at at Laracon.
31:55
that's who that's who shows up on live streams or these
31:59
These people who in their very core feel like,
32:02
I am a I am an artisan,
32:05
I care about this kind of stuff.
32:07
~ I think that has gotten Laravel the company incredibly far,
32:12
right? So like Laravel Forge for a decade has paid Taylor's bills and more,
32:18
right? It's done great. And now
32:18
Yeah. Yeah.
32:20
Laravel Cloud is doing great. And so I don't think there's any world
32:26
in which like I don't think
32:29
well, going back, I don't think strategically or morally there's any world
32:33
in which like abandoning the core audience makes sense.
32:36
I think it is a very and maybe that's why he wanted to hire out
32:42
of the core audience, because like I feel that in my bones.
32:45
Yeah.
32:47
but I just don't think there's any world where that is strategically
32:49
or ethically optimal to like say,
32:51
all right, we're done. Thanks for all the fish.
32:53
so, but that being said,
32:56
like.
32:57
the vision of Laravel is grand,
32:59
right? And so how do we take everything that is great about this community
33:06
and make it legible to the outside world?
33:10
And I think that's a tough, like that's a tough challenge.
33:14
~ and you also add in the fact that AI is here and whether we,
33:21
you know, whether to what extent we use it,
33:25
It will be used more five years from now than it is used now.
33:29
Like, that's just a pretty that's a pretty safe bet.
33:32
Say, say
33:32
Yeah, yeah.
33:33
what you will about like, should we read the code or should you have loops
33:38
or graphs or you know, whatever.
33:41
I'm just making a broad assertion that five years from now,
33:44
developers will use more AI than they use today.
33:47
I think that's fair. So you
33:47
Yeah. I think it's fair. Yeah.
33:49
add all these things up of like,
33:51
~ we we have this group.
33:55
Of people that for whom we deeply care,
33:58
you know, the we'll call them the artisans.
34:00
We have this broader engineering community that we need to like make ourselves
34:06
legible to. And then we have these AI,
34:10
depending on what you believe,
34:11
headwinds or tailwinds, right?
34:12
We have AI wins one way or another.
34:15
And so how do we square that? I guess that's a triangle,
34:18
three things. How do we square that triangle?
34:20
~ I think.
34:23
I think one of the answers is ~ Laravel is unique Laravel,
34:29
the framework, is uniquely positioned ~ for the pragmatic builder.
34:35
That has always been true. The artisans are a subset,
34:38
they are a subset of pragmatic builders.
34:41
Yes.
34:41
So like if you have a if you have a circle,
34:43
the circle of pragmatic builders completely encompasses artisans,
34:48
but
34:49
Yes.
34:49
then inside the artisan circle is quite small.
34:52
Right? It's just the community,
34:52
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
34:54
which is
34:54
a large community, but not compared to the population of the pragmatic builders
34:58
in the world. And so you start to think about like,
35:01
all right, well, Laravel is unique Laravel,
35:03
the framework is uniquely positioned because it's batteries included.
35:07
You don't have this vendor sprawl,
35:09
which is a word Taylor said that I loved.
35:11
You don't have this vendor sprawl.
35:12
~ the AI is very good at it because it has all these cohesive opinions.
35:17
That's interesting. Laravel framework,
35:19
that's interesting. The community is already a subset of pragmatic builders.
35:22
AI allows technically minded,
35:26
non-technical people to build applications.
35:30
And so maybe there's a world in which we start to speak to the outside world
35:36
as ~ Laravel's the best place to build.
35:40
Like full stop bar none. Laravel's the best way to build applications.
35:47
Because we can uniquely tell the story that from local development
35:52
to millions of requests a second,
35:55
you can just keep using Laravel.
35:57
Like now now cloud completes that story,
36:00
right? And so we can tell that story all the way through with a straight face
36:05
and not abandon anyone who wants to still classify themselves
36:10
as a ~ in the code with your fingers artisan.
36:15
That's great. That's always going to be important to Laravel the company.
36:19
You know that Taylor's never gonna give up caring about the code.
36:22
But if we if we think about potentially expanding
36:27
our identity to Laravel is the best place in the world to build applications,
36:33
well then we can start to like we can start to bring in,
36:38
you know, these no code refugees.
36:40
Like maybe they used Bubble or
36:42
Back in the day, ~ maybe they use lovable now and they have to eject because it's
36:46
like I hit the wall that every vibe coder hits,
36:49
they hit the wall. So we can start to bring in those,
36:52
like those people from the different communities,
36:55
right? And then there's another question,
36:58
I think, that is how do we how do we start
37:02
to gain credibility with the ~ the broader engineering community?
37:09
So we've covered like
37:10
the the builders, the technically minded salespeople,
37:13
operations people, marketing folks that want to build internal apps.
37:17
We bring them all in. Laravel's the best way to build applications.
37:20
What about, what about the FAING engineers?
37:23
Or maybe Fang is dead now that everything's AI.
37:25
What about like, you know, the open AI,
37:27
the all those engineers who look at PHP as an adorable little hobby,
37:32
right? ~
37:32
Yes, yeah.
37:34
which, you know, if they haven't updated their priors in 10 years,
37:38
is is fine. Like
37:39
I don't I don't bemoan them for for having an outdated view about something that
37:44
they don't care about. That's totally fine.
37:46
I think the challenge for us is how do we how do we communicate
37:53
to the outside world that Laravel is not this little like niche hobby shop?
37:58
Because we all know that, right?
37:58
Yes. Yeah.
38:00
We in the community know, this is this is like big boy stuff.
38:04
and I think
38:07
My my tentative answer is ~ we take a lot
38:12
of the engineering capability that we have internally,
38:16
which we have a huge amount of,
38:18
right? You talk about you talk about managed queues,
38:22
you talk about scale to zero, you talk about private cloud for goodness sakes,
38:26
you got MySQL that scales to zero now,
38:29
and it was just like a tweet, and it's like,
38:31
hey, we have MySQL that scales to zero.
38:32
And I'm like, We what?
38:36
I think we take all of this engineering credibility that we have internally
38:40
and we have to make it legible to the public world.
38:43
And so what that strategically or practically looks like is
38:49
we have our engineers, we potentially we slow down how much we're writing
38:53
on the blog. That's fine. But if we put out one piece a month
38:59
for the explicit benefit of gaining credibility.
39:02
with other
39:03
Yeah.
39:03
engineers in other companies. I don't care if not a single one of them ever converts
39:08
to a cloud customer. I really don't.
39:09
Yeah. Yeah.
39:10
But
39:10
what I want is people inside of Cursor,
39:13
inside of Planet Scale, inside of Linear.
39:16
I want those
39:16
Yeah.
39:17
engineers to read these blog posts because they hit hacker news.
39:21
I want them to read these blog posts and say,
39:23
~ shit, I didn't, I didn't realize Laravel was doing this
39:25
Yeah. I had no idea.
39:28
stuff. What the hell? ~
39:30
Yeah.
39:32
And what that does is that raises Laravel the company and by extension Laravel
39:38
the framework in the eyes of ~ credible engineers at credible companies.
39:45
And there's been this long history of like ~ like kind
39:51
of kind of joking, kind of not like why doesn't anyone take the PHP seriously?
39:57
And
39:59
I don't I I feel pretty neutral to all of that.
40:01
Like I'm I'm not I don't care if people think PHP is dead.
40:05
What I want them to think about is Laravel.
40:08
I want them to think about Laravel is the best way to build applications.
40:12
And Laravel, the company, is a serious engineering organization doing serious
40:18
engineering work. And I think this is this is my hope to tie it all together.
40:23
And then it's been like forty minutes that I've been talking,
40:25
So good. It's so good.
40:25
so I'll stop. But
40:27
what I think is
40:29
All of these, all all of all of these strategies raise
40:34
the tide for everyone in the Laravel community,
40:37
Yes. Yes.
40:38
right?
40:39
Because if Laravel is, we'll say,
40:41
I would love 12 times a year, we'll say six times a year,
40:45
Laravel hits the front page of Hacker News for some deep engineering blog post.
40:49
Laravel agencies start to go up,
40:53
Laravel freelancers start to go up,
40:56
Laravel salaries start to go up.
40:59
And so I'm hoping that by like dragging Laravel the company out into the light,
41:05
it pulls all of these people that have been with us for fifteen years
41:10
and it raises the tide for all of those boats.
41:13
Cause then then executives or CTOs or whatever are reading Hacker News
41:17
and they're like, wait, what now?
41:19
You can just All right, well, let me see if anybody in my network knows anybody that
41:24
does Laravel, because this seems cool.
41:26
And then Tighten gets a call and I'm like
41:28
Yes, that's great. That's exactly what we want.
41:31
And so that's kind of like the the soup to nuts vision of how do we push Laravel,
41:37
the company out? How do we care for the community?
41:40
How do we expand to builders without losing our artisan identity,
41:45
but without putting up a wall for people who don't identify as artisans?
41:50
They may be like, I don't care,
41:50
Yeah. Yeah.
41:51
I just want to build. How do we
41:52
how do we do all of that together?
41:54
Yeah.
41:55
That's the dream.
41:56
Yeah. That was an incredible forty minutes.
41:58
I it wasn't forty, but it was incredible thirty No,
41:58
Yeah, sorry.
42:00
no, it was so good.
42:02
No need for apology. one of the things that you and I have is a shared vision.
42:06
~ and one of the reasons why I told you I was so excited about you being
42:09
in this role is an understanding that as long as people outside
42:14
of the Laravel ecosystem, and like we could even say the broader PHP ecosystem,
42:17
but that's not that much bigger.
42:19
~
42:21
Until people outside of there understand us,
42:23
we're always gonna be hobbyist in some ways.
42:25
And we're not just hobbyist
42:26
Mm-hmm.
42:26
because there's massive international companies using it,
42:29
but there has been an artificial cap on the growth of Laravel.
42:34
I can say this as an agency owner because hundreds every year,
42:39
hundreds of startups and scale-ups or
42:41
Mm-hmm.
42:41
whatever choose Laravel and are told you can't do that because somebody
42:46
in the C-suite has a friend somewhere in the valley that says PHP is outdated,
42:50
and you can't do it.
42:51
We have been artificially held back in our growth for over a decade for that reason.
42:56
And I can't tell
42:57
Mm-hmm.
42:57
you how many thousands of conversations I've had with people where that's
43:00
the concern. And so to me, if you could just imagine the change
43:04
of what you're describing here,
43:06
just the change where the broader programming world,
43:09
the broader startup world, the broader builder world understands the value,
43:14
the capabilities, the capacity,
43:15
the modernity, the opportunity that happens in this.
43:19
Really, really technically rigorous team building both applic both
43:24
a like a infrastructure and then also software that is modern,
43:28
that is batteries included, that is great for like if that reputation changes,
43:32
that one thing alone will have a transformative impact on
43:36
so many different components of our world.
43:38
And the thing is, you've been doing that,
43:40
right? Like I I I had tried years and years and years ago to break into
43:45
the JavaScript world and Silicon Valley and get all these things,
43:48
and I had mixed success.
43:49
And you have had probably greater success than anybody other than maybe Taylor
43:54
in gaining a reputation outside of the Laravel ecosystem and having them go,
43:59
wait, you can do that with Laravel?
44:01
Mm, mhm.
44:02
Wait,
44:03
I see what Aaron's doing, and he's a Laravel guy.
44:05
And so for you to be the one in this
44:05
Mm-hmm.
44:06
position gives me hope because I'm like,
44:09
you get it, and you've already built those reputations.
44:11
You've already built those networks.
44:12
You already have this understanding,
44:13
this the positioning there. ~
44:16
So yeah, I'm hyped. I'm so I'm so ready.
44:18
I'm like, just tell me, tell me where to sign,
44:20
tell me what you need me to do.
44:21
And I hope that other people are able to see that as well,
44:23
because I really think that this is a pivotal moment in the history of Laravel
44:27
Well, that means the world to me.
44:29
And I think I think this is going back to like strategies,
44:32
like I think it's it is normal for Laravel
44:37
and and PHP developers to be like,
44:40
this is really frustrating. We're s we're serious and we shouldn't have
44:46
to prove that we're serious and we're real developers.
44:51
And I I'm like, I agree.
44:54
It is frustrating. You know what?
44:55
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
44:56
It doesn't matter though. We do have to prove it.
44:58
We we just have to prove it.
45:00
And I think ~ I think it in some regards is easy because we don't have
45:07
to we don't have to hire or ~ build from scratch
45:13
the engineering talent inside the company.
45:15
I can just walk over to the infra team and be like,
45:19
Hey, you're writing a blog post like
45:22
I I don't have to say, do something cool,
45:25
spend 10 years learning Kubernetes,
45:28
and then
45:28
Right.
45:29
come back to me and you're gonna write a blog post.
45:31
I can just call Chris Fidao and be like,
45:33
brother,
45:33
Yeah.
45:34
I'm recording, we're gonna talk for an hour,
45:36
and then Anna's gonna go write up the first version.
45:39
Chris, you're gonna put the final touches on it,
45:40
design is gonna make some graphs,
45:42
like the hard part is the 10,
45:46
20 years of engineering expertise to be able to write something that is interesting.
45:52
turns out the whole team already has it.
45:55
And
45:55
Yes.
45:56
so I'm just walking into this like,
45:57
I'm just walking in and I'm picking apples off the tree.
46:00
Like I don't have to wait for anything.
46:02
And
46:02
Yeah.
46:02
so I think it if you feel if you hear hear this and you're like,
46:07
we shouldn't have to prove ourselves,
46:09
I agree, but we do. We do.
46:10
Yeah. Yeah. So what are we gonna do with that?
46:12
And we will. And so that's that's my message
46:12
Yeah. Come on.
46:15
to to y'all.
46:16
That's good. it doesn't hurt that Laravel the organization,
46:21
is also full of incredible communicators and teachers.
46:23
Like who happen to be, you know,
46:25
architectural geniuses and these brilliant creators.
46:28
But like you I mean, you just pulled Chris Fidow out of hat.
46:30
Chris Fiddao has created courses and blog posts and conference talks,
46:34
also happens to be brilliant and super actively involved in
46:36
all the infrastructure stuff going on.
46:37
So I'm it's
46:38
Yes. Give
46:39
me give me Jess Archer at a at a click house conference schooling people with
46:41
Right. Yeah.
46:45
Yeah.
46:46
her cool accent. That
46:47
is worth that is worth so much more than many
46:53
of the marketing efforts we could do.
46:55
Because you go to a click house conference and you see Jess Archer
46:59
up there and she's putting on a she's putting on a lesson and you're like,
47:02
Mm-hmm.
47:03
Where does where does this woman work?
47:04
And you're like, ~ wow. She works at Laravel.
47:07
Yeah.
47:07
I've
47:08
I've heard of them. They must be they must be serious.
47:10
That is what I want ~ in terms of like gaining engineering credibility.
47:15
I want our already very smart engineers to be more public.
47:19
Yeah. That's great because you bring attention to some sittings settings and you go,
47:24
crap, can we actually keep up with it?
47:25
And here you're like, Nope, we can keep up.
47:26
You just bring the attention to the framework,
47:29
bring the attention to the individual engineers,
47:31
bring the attention to the organization.
47:32
And we're like, Yeah, it's it's gonna be great.
47:34
It's good. People will be impressed.
47:36
And and it's nice to be in a position where you don't have to worry about that.
47:38
It's not like,
47:39
Yeah.
47:39
well, I gotta reorg the entire team before I can
47:41
No.
47:42
actually get to the point where I'm confident.
47:43
No, I just need to bring the attention.
47:44
And I don't have to make anything up.
47:46
I don't have to like
47:47
Yeah.
47:47
it that that's such a nice like I don't have to and I'm actually allergic
47:52
to putting marketing speak on stuff that is stupid.
47:54
I don't have to do that. Like I don't have
47:54
Yeah. Yeah.
47:57
to try to convince people to care about things that are dumb and or not impressive.
48:02
We have enough cool and impressive stuff
48:06
Then we'll just work through that part first.
48:08
Yeah.
48:08
And then
48:09
maybe maybe after a couple of years we'll get I'll convince you that something dumb
48:13
is not dumb. But for now, I've got a lot of not dumb stuff that we can talk about,
48:14
Yeah. Pull your material.
48:17
yeah.
48:18
I love it. ~ okay, so if everything goes
48:24
the way you hope, where is Laravel in a few years?
48:28
And I think you've kind of already named a little bit about,
48:29
you know, like the change in perspective or anything like that.
48:32
Mm-hmm.
48:32
But like is there any guiding light,
48:35
guiding goal, guiding, you know,
48:37
metric you say if we're able to do this,
48:40
this is a success?
48:42
Yeah, I think there are I think there are are a couple that maybe all point
48:47
the same direction. ~
48:49
Mm-hmm.
48:51
getting in getting our engineers to speak at conferences that have literally nothing
48:56
to do with PHP or Laravel, that's a big one.
48:58
~ that you know, that points a direction.
49:02
Getting engineering content on hacker news points that same direction.
49:09
~ I think the more
49:11
like the more squishy stuff is the conversations around like the like
49:17
you were talking about with those people in the valley and the old Grizzin CTOs.
49:23
I think changing that conversation,
49:26
~ and maybe like a metric there is how many YC startups choose Laravel.
49:31
Like maybe that that maybe that
49:32
Yeah. Yeah.
49:33
is a thing. but just kind of
49:38
Bringing it's it's just so strange to me,
49:40
bringing the public perception of Laravel up to the current reality of Laravel.
49:46
Yeah, yeah.
49:47
~
49:49
and so, you know, there's a lot there there's there are a lot of things that point
49:55
that direction. ~ the actual like you know,
50:00
I'm sure revenue go up is probably a good number.
50:03
And you know, Tom Tom, if you're listening,
50:03
Sure.
50:05
that's my number
50:05
for sure. Revenue go up.
50:08
but I think all of these like all of these things point to Laravel being credible
50:14
outside of the artisans.
50:15
Yeah.
50:18
and you know, we've got we've I I've got the team to do it.
50:22
Like my actual marketing team,
50:24
like I said before, I can't do what they do.
50:26
They're telling me words, and I'm like,
50:28
sister, I don't know what that word means.
50:30
You have to back up.
50:30
Yeah.
50:32
And I I've told every one of them,
50:34
like, if you're if you're
50:37
hesitant or confused, I get it.
50:39
Like I came out of nowhere. I didn't I didn't come from a marketing,
50:43
but but listen, I'm counting on you.
50:46
Like you do your job very well.
50:48
Cynthia hired a great team. They're just all killers.
50:52
And so I I don't think it's gonna be I don't think it's gonna be that difficult
50:59
to change the conversation. It's just gonna take work and some time.
51:03
But the raw materials are unbelievable.
51:05
Yeah.
51:06
It's like we're America and everywhere you dig there's a new raw material
51:09
and you're like, well, I guess we're not running out of that anymore.
51:12
That's how it feels walking into Laravel.
51:14
It's like, I got tons of engineering people I can pull from.
51:17
My team is all ruthless killers.
51:19
Like, this is gonna be great. Let's just organize
51:19
Yeah. I love it.
51:22
some stuff and get out there.
51:24
I love it. I've said before,
51:28
but I'm incredibly excited to have you in this role.
51:30
~ this call has only made me more excited to have you in this role
51:33
and I imagine that there's other people listening.
51:36
before we wrap, is there anything you want from the listeners?
51:40
Is there anything you want them to have running in the back of their mind?
51:43
Is there anything that you're gonna be
51:44
Yeah.
51:44
calling them to do? Or is it more just like,
51:46
Hey, keep being who you are and we're just gonna bring more light to
51:49
us being the great people we are?
51:52
Yeah, I really do think it is it is continue.
51:55
~ I said I said this last year on on the Laracon stage.
51:59
I've said this many times. ~ with you know,
52:02
as a community member only, I've said this many times,
52:06
~ that Laravelle is a very kind and welcoming place.
52:11
~ and I I like believe that with all of my heart,
52:15
and that's why I've stuck around for so long.
52:17
And so my I guess my
52:20
charge to the community is to continue doing that.
52:24
and
52:25
Yeah.
52:26
and maybe let's think about like,
52:28
you know, hopefully what I'm saying is true that if,
52:32
you know, we can bring new people in and we can gain this external credibility that
52:37
I believe we're owed, ~ then everybody's everybody's lot in life improves.
52:43
From freelancers to agencies to W two workers to business owners,
52:49
whatever. I
52:50
Truly do believe that that is going to improve everyone's lives.
52:53
And so maybe my charge is like,
52:56
let's figure out how to get more technically minded builders
53:01
who maybe don't share our love for handcrafted curly braces.
53:07
Like, how how can we keep exactly what we want and also welcome in
53:14
Mm-hmm.
53:14
A huge
53:15
number of people looking for a kind and welcoming home and a pragmatic
53:20
way to build applications
53:20
Yeah.
53:21
and make their dreams come true.
53:23
Because what are we all doing
53:23
Yes. Yes.
53:24
except trying to better our lives?
53:27
And there's a huge group of people out there who want to build something,
53:31
don't know the first freaking thing about PHP,
53:34
but they've heard Laravel's good for building.
53:36
And I think if we can welcome all of those people in,
53:39
and I have no doubts that we will,
53:40
I think if we can welcome all of those people in.
53:43
then we will continue to accelerate the trajectory that we're on.
53:48
Yeah. ~ normally I end by asking if there's anything else you want to talk about.
53:52
I will a end with that, but that was such a good charge.
53:55
I'm just like I should just sign off right now.
53:56
Nah, we can end there. Yeah, we can end there.
53:57
Okay.
53:58
It's fine, I got nothing.
54:00
That was ~ I'm inspired, man. ~ I really appreciate you.
54:04
~ if people are fascinated by Aaron Francis and want to keep up to date
54:08
on him and everything he's doing,
54:09
how do they follow you?
54:11
Probably best at X dot com the Everything app.
54:15
I am Aaron A A R O N D as in Daniel Francis,
54:19
Aaron D Francis.
54:21
And check out mostly technical,
54:22
~ links to all these things in the show notes.
54:23
And check out mostly technical
54:24
if you want to hear me argue with Ian every week.
54:26
~ man,
54:27
I do. It's one of the highlights of my week.
54:29
I've just I love it. ~
54:31
we just argued
54:32
about pricing for thirty minutes on this week's episode,
54:35
so enjoy that.
54:36
Can't wait. I can't wait. Well,
54:37
Aaron, I really appreciate especially a couple days before Laracon especially
54:40
a couple days before you're starting this new job.
54:42
Thank you so much for spending some time to hang out with us.
54:43
Of course.
54:44
Yeah, it was my honor. Thanks for having me.
54:46
All right, and for the rest of you,
54:47
we see you on next time.
54:50
Alright, my mouse is not visible.
54:51
I'm using this teleprompter and in order for my camera not to be totally blown
54:55
out I have