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Equine Assisted Practices including Horse Therapy · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:01
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Hi, this is Ishii Abel, the Horse Human Connection Matrix podcast.
• 0:07
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Today, I want to talk a little bit about what's available for equine therapists.
• 0:12
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I'm going to give a talk to some interns.
• 0:15
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And it occurred to me that this might just be a great subject for a podcast as well.
• 0:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So, I want to talk a little bit about the history of horses.
• 0:24
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: What my purpose is, the things I've noticed, the science, the myth, and the magic.
• 0:29
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I want to list some of the people that are highly, highly influenced this industry and that have also influenced my opinions and the work that I do.
• 0:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I want to talk about a few certification programs and what those things are and kind of bring things back to therapy and throw in a little bit of stuff about autism as well.
• 0:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So here we go.
• 1:01
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: An awful lot of horse.
• 1:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And this has got to bring images up to all of us through our modern media, whether that's the Wells Fargo wagon, or Westerns, or movies that we've seen about horses carrying men into battles, or pulling chariots from the earliest times pulling plows, Of course, man, woman, and horse have had this relationship for many, many, many, many, many years.
• 1:35
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And how did it start?
• 1:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: There's a fanciful chapter in a book called Clan of the Cave Bear, which, going way back now, deals with a time on the Earth when there were Neanderthals and Cro Magnon Man.
• 1:50
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And in this novel, that is very well done, documented and substantiated in many of the things that it talks about between herbalism and flintknapping and, and a lot of the science.
• 2:01
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Anyway there's a chapter where this woman gets on a horse.
• 2:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And you can imagine that this could very well be that the very first time a human decided to get on a horse.
• 2:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And, I love what that captured in me when I read it because it's almost as if the horse is inviting her.
• 2:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And I imagine that's the way it was now that I know these creatures so well.
• 2:28
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Being able to train a horse to go into battle the way the Romans did, the way It's been done throughout history the way George Washington did.
• 2:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: George Washington was an exceptional horseman and I have a feeling that that's why he related so well to his troops and his soldiers as well.
• 2:46
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: The trust that you have to have to take a prey animal into a situation where you're gonna Cut people and make blood and kill people on its back.
• 2:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: That kind of trust, that kind of partnership is, is, is just like, it blows my mind that we've been doing this for so long and that those things would go against a horse's nature in so many respects.
• 3:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So that being said, it's not a huge jump for me that horses have wanted to be our partners.
• 3:22
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Why else would they?
• 3:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Why else would this relationship have lasted so long?
• 3:30
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So, when I began to learn about horses, which was when I was a child, and then much later, as a person in her 40s, I've There was a lot to learn, a lot to learn about being a leader, a lot to learn about dominance and bossing horses around and imitating herd behavior, or at least specific parts of herd behavior.
• 3:51
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: The parts where the lead mare and a stallion boss everybody else around, but that's not all they do.
• 3:57
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And, and that's important to look at the other ways that herds interact, the members of a horse herd interact with each other.
• 4:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So, As I began to study more and more, something didn't sit right with me.
• 4:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And when I started to walk down the road of Equine Assisted Learning and went to get some horse therapy for myself, I realized some things.
• 4:26
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I realized that horses are going to show up really, really differently when we're not asking them.
• 4:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: to do all this stuff for us when we're not treating them like slaves, which is essentially the way that traditional horsemanships have treated horses.
• 4:46
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: We capture them, we keep them, we feed them, we ask them to work for us, we reward them, and we punish them, and they are not free.
• 4:56
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: That's pretty much what a slave is.
• 4:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: When we ask them even if they're domesticated horses to work with us in an emotional way, and they still may be slaves, but they seem to be offered more choices and just being recognized for having these different attributes and abilities.
• 5:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Rather than just carrying people around, bringing them into war, pulling plows, and being transportation.
• 5:30
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Asking them to participate on an intellectual and emotional level elevates them.
• 5:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It elevates the relationship.
• 5:40
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And they show up differently.
• 5:43
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And we begin to see them for who they really are.
• 5:47
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: They are Amazing creatures who are way, way smarter than most people give them credit for.
• 5:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I used to like to say this, and now I realize that this is even insulting.
• 5:58
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: That the average horse has an intelligence of a three or four year old child.
• 6:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Well, that may apply to the amount of language skills they have.
• 6:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: But they have even more than that.
• 6:11
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Like my older mare who's 30 years old, a very smart horse to begin with, a very old horse who's been working with humans and around humans for a very long time, is way more than a four year old child.
• 6:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: In fact sometimes she feels like my mother.
• 6:29
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Yes.
• 6:32
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: When we recognize what they're capable of and Ask them to help and treat them well.
• 6:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: All kinds of, all kinds of wonderful things happen.
• 6:45
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So, before I come back and talk about some of the neuropathways, the neuroscience, and the magic, I want to list some of the people and talk briefly about them.
• 7:00
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So Linda Kohanov.
• 7:05
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I hope I'm pronouncing that right.
• 7:07
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: The Tao of Equus.
• 7:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: She's written a couple of other books.
• 7:10
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I consider her the grandmother of equine therapy.
• 7:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: This woman had a horse who was lame and she couldn't ride it so she began to walk with it in these auroras of Arizona and then she wrote a book about her experiences and this horse began to communicate with her and she began to have a very very deep connection with this black mare who Who really began everything that we do today, I believe.
• 7:43
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Cherise Rudolph is a woman who wrote a book called The Art of Facilitation with 28 Equine Assisted Activities.
• 7:51
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I got to study with this woman before she retired from horses.
• 7:54
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: She is currently an artist.
• 7:57
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And this was about experiential learning.
• 8:00
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Now Cherise started off with Working with kids in outward bound programs and then moved into ropes courses and eventually into equine therapy and ended up specializing in veterans in the military and then specifically women with PTSD in the military.
• 8:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And this book that she wrote with all these beautiful equine assisted activities to do which promote, experiential learning is just phenomenal.
• 8:32
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And I've, I've worked out of the book with several different groups.
• 8:35
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I trained with her and the processing that takes place afterwards is so unexpected.
• 8:43
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I mean, these exercises we're going to bring things up for people that you can't even Imagine that they're going to bring up, and that's, that's the real beauty of it.
• 8:52
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It's not just the exercises, it's also how the horses show up.
• 8:57
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: A very important book is Horsebrain Human Brain by Janet Jones, Ph.
• 9:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: D.
• 9:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: That is like an essential these days.
• 9:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Liz Mitton Ryan has done an incredible amount of work up in Kamloops, British Columbia, and I was able to study with her as well.
• 9:15
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And just through meditation, With horses and channeling and interacting with her herd.
• 9:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: The horses up there are are phenomenal also and a lot of that work is done with heart math.
• 9:31
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: A lot of what Sharice Rudolph does is also utilizes heart math.
• 9:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And if you're not familiar with heart math, that is definitely something to look up.
• 9:41
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It is advertised as a quick coherence method, a way of bringing our physiology back into a, a more regulated state.
• 9:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And that feeds into how we interact with horses and the loops that can be created, too.
• 10:00
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: The movie Rescued Hearts, which has not yet been released, but should be this summer, is going to be a very important documentary documenting all the way that horses and humans and how lives are changed by those connections.
• 10:18
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Most people are familiar with the Netflix series Heartland, the type of work and reflection and mirroring done in this TV sitcom.
• 10:27
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It's a very well made entertainment, as I see it.
• 10:33
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: But it also, it also tells what's possible with horses.
• 10:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And The star of the show, whose name escapes me at the moment, is instrumental in the movie that I just mentioned, Rescued Hearts.
• 10:46
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: She's in the movie, she advocates for the movie, and it's gonna, it's gonna be great.
• 10:52
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So, all of these people, all of these resources are available.
• 11:01
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: To learn more and to study from and in my mind, I mean there are others out there too, but in my mind these are what I have found, what I have read, what I have followed, and what have heavily influenced how I got to this place.
• 11:19
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: For people to become certified in, in a modality, that corresponds with their licensing as a counselor or a therapist or for a lay person horse person to have a certification that then they can work with a therapist.
• 11:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: There are a lot of different programs and unfortunately there's not a standardization.
• 11:47
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: There's not even a standardized initials that stand for this work.
• 11:51
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I use EPA for equine assisted practices because it's broad in general and can cover everything.
• 11:58
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: There's somebody else that grabbed those initials and used them for their own program.
• 12:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: There are other broader initials that are out there.
• 12:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And so that can be a little confusing.
• 12:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So I think it's worth mentioning that there's not a standardized abbreviation for this type of work.
• 12:16
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And maybe there shouldn't be because It varies so much as we get a little deeper into it, you'll see how much it varies.
• 12:24
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So PATH, Professional Association of Therapeutic Horsemanship.
• 12:31
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: They will certify people to be very safe working with horses, with children, with handicapped people, mentally and physically with autistic people.
• 12:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And I've read about their programs.
• 12:45
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I've looked into doing it myself and.
• 12:47
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Decided not to.
• 12:50
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: When we're talking about the science and the magic, this program's been around for a really long time, and it does good getting people with horses, but I don't think it scratches the surface of what's possible.
• 13:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: EGALA is another very old program, Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association.
• 13:13
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So this is a program that began with some metaphors and with horses.
• 13:19
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Working with youth in detention facilities.
• 13:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And they've done a lot of good work.
• 13:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Again, they are, they've been in there for a very long time.
• 13:30
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And I'm not sure they've grown with all of the knowledge that's now available.
• 13:35
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: But, the history of equine therapy is worth looking into.
• 13:41
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: In any way that it interests you.
• 13:45
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: As far as I'm concerned, any time you get horses and people together, well not any time, but almost any time that you get horses and people together with the intention and atmosphere for doing emotional work, something good is going to come out of it, as long as nobody is getting hurt.
• 14:10
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Equine Experiential Education Association is called E& A.
• 14:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Equisoma is Horse Human Trauma Recovery.
• 14:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Rupert Isaacson, who we'll talk a little bit about, and who I have an interview on my podcast with, is also an author, the author of Horse Boy, the movie Horse Boy, the method Horse Boy.
• 14:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So, This will segue into some of the science.
• 14:40
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I'm just going to mention Dewey Freeman as well with attachment and mirroring effect and there's links in the email that I sent about, about these things.
• 14:51
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I would definitely have a look into them.
• 14:55
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So let's talk about Rupert for a little bit.
• 14:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Rupert had been a horse trainer and he was a journalist and he had a six year old nonverbal incontinent.
• 15:07
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: autistic son that they had struggled with for six years.
• 15:11
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And I think when the child was about four, he wandered next door and Rupert found him in a stall with a horse.
• 15:20
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And did not panic because he had trained horses and he could see that, you know, there wasn't an immediate danger.
• 15:27
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: But he did end up going and talking to the man that owned the horse, who didn't ride the horse anymore, and got permission to start taking his son on rides.
• 15:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Well, the child loved this.
• 15:38
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And Rupert noticed that while on the horse, his son was calmer, was regulated better and seemed to be more aware of his surroundings.
• 15:54
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Later, Rupert had an opportunity as a journalist to go on a six week horseback riding journey with shaman through Mongolia.
• 16:05
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And this just, this is one of those things that just fell into place, you know, serendipitously.
• 16:11
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And so he brought his wife and the child.
• 16:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And over the six weeks, Traveling through Mongolia on horseback, the autistic boy has breakthroughs that are incredible.
• 16:26
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So when he gets home, Rupert finds a neuroscience and said, even though he was with shaman, even though he understands shaman and has a very strong belief system in this, he wanted to know if and what the science was.
• 16:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And what they came up with was movement of the hips releases the neurochemical oxytocin which is a feel good chemical that helps us regulate and helps us learn and connect.
• 17:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I still think there's more to it than that, but I'm sure that that's true also.
• 17:07
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Dewey Freeman has a slightly different opinion about what happens with the hips of a horse and connecting with humans.
• 17:16
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I'll let you watch the, the YouTube to find out more about that because it too is interesting.
• 17:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: I want to highly, highly recommend as a resource, not just because I'm the one doing the interview, but because the most knowledgeable person I know about horses and horse therapy is a woman that taught me a lot of this.
• 17:40
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And her name is is Carissa Schmidt.
• 17:44
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And the interview that I have not released yet, but should be released hopefully next week is with her, and her commenting about all of this.
• 17:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And she can comment about it from a clinical standpoint, and from an expert horsemanship standpoint, which you don't want to miss.
• 18:05
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So there's more ground to cover here.
• 18:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Let's let's go back a little bit to more of the neuroscience.
• 18:12
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Horses don't see the same way we do.
• 18:16
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: They have eyes on the side of their head.
• 18:18
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: They're prey animals.
• 18:20
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: If you walk a horse through the barn, And a hose is always ruled up a particular way.
• 18:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And most barn aisles, commercial barns are going to have hoses to fill the water buckets that are in the stalls.
• 18:32
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: That horse sees that hose differently every single time that it's been moved.
• 18:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It has to process, is it dangerous?
• 18:40
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: What changed in my environment?
• 18:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And of course, older horses that have been there for a really long time are going to become somewhat desensitized to it.
• 18:48
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: But when we're out on a trail, or even in an arena, With the sun coming in at a different angle, or through a different window, or a different time of day, or something shiny on the floor, or a jacket hanging over a stall door, all of these things have changed in the horse's environment and register in their brains as possible danger.
• 19:11
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So when a horse feels danger, it will become dysregulated.
• 19:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Because they can become so easily dysregulated, and do frequently, even in domestication, even in environments where they're used to things, they have to get really good at becoming regulated again.
• 19:35
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So just like people become emotionally dysregulated, the horses are going to feed off of people, just like they'll feed off of the other animals in a herd.
• 19:47
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So in a herd of horses, in a wild herd of horses, they have a connection with their electromagnetic field in their heart.
• 19:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: They are hypervigilant, they're prey animals.
• 20:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: The lead mare is responsible for knowing the environment the best.
• 20:10
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: For knowing every individual the best.
• 20:12
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So that if A horse grazing on the outside of the herd is the first to hear something in the bushes that might be a predator.
• 20:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It will become dysregulated.
• 20:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: It will, its ears will move, its heart rate will change, and that lead mare will know that.
• 20:30
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And then that lead mare will decide it's time to run or Maybe just one or two horses will investigate a little bit and then it might be time to run.
• 20:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Whatever the decision is, she's making that decision.
• 20:45
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: But she's making it quickly because she's so in touch with the herd.
• 20:52
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And every member of that herd is connected.
• 20:55
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Can you see how this behavior can translate to working with humans and giving them a sense of belonging?
• 21:05
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So even just sitting in a round pen with a horse is going to bring up feelings of in being included and belonging that humans aren't used to having that we rarely get from being around other humans.
• 21:24
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Just just one thing that and the ability to regulate fairly quickly, so they go up and come down.
• 21:34
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: So the saying, and maybe you've heard this, meet the person where they are.
• 21:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: This is actually a horse training thing that's been morphed into the therapy world.
• 21:48
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Because in training a horse, you meet them where they are.
• 21:55
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: And this is old school.
• 21:56
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Before we got better at telling about the subtleties in training a horse, where they are most receptive to learning, one of the methods was, if the horse is really up, get really up there with the horse.
• 22:11
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Make them, if they're afraid of something, make them afraid of you, and then bring them down together.
• 22:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: You can see how that translates from the herd behavior.
• 22:20
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: Now, hopefully, most trainers know a little bit more about nuance, you know, and all of that isn't necessary, but a version of it, a much milder version of it, is still effective.
• 22:34
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: As we've been talking about horses and herd behavior and human therapy and all that's available, I think I'm beginning to make a picture where you can understand how valuable horses are in equine assisted learning and in equine therapy and how they mirror us.
• 22:58
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I don't know if I talked very much about the mirroring effect, but humans have mirror neurons and horses, horses have something.
• 23:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I don't know what it is, but part of the way they always show up is about that mirroring and how they show us what we need to know.
• 23:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It just, it happens all of the time.
• 23:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: So, as I was talking with these therapy interns, it's, it's a fine line to walk I think when you begin to bring animals into therapy because we are tempted to do that thing, or to give them more credit than is due, or to interpret things that seem quite magical in different ways.
• 23:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And it's hard not to get labeled as woo woo or way out there.
• 23:47
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: But when you start to come into this world and you see what's possible, and you see how they help.
• 23:56
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I would just say stay away from it unless you have an open enough mind and you're willing to walk that line and balance it.
• 24:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Because I think still maintaining your credibility with colleagues may become difficult.
• 24:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: At some point people maybe don't care.
• 24:20
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I don't care.
• 24:22
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: But I know people that work in this field that are constantly trying to navigate that, and it's not always easy.
• 24:29
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I think some of the newer research, even though it may not qualify in our quote unquote scientific world, but the telepathy tapes.
• 24:39
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: The idea that is being documented that autistic children all over the world, Dr.
• 24:46
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Hennessy Powell down in Medford and some, some woman has made a group of podcasts and gone to a lot of trouble to scientifically document how these occurrences are happening and, and what is going on.
• 25:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: But.
• 25:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It doesn't surprise me at all because I've been immersed in this world.
• 25:07
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I think there's a lot of people that doesn't surprise that nonverbal autistic children are telepathically commuting with their caregivers.
• 25:15
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I mean, it makes perfect sense to me.
• 25:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And I, I just wonder about other people that are nonverbal as well.
• 25:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Dr.
• 25:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Temple Grandin started talking about autistic people thinking more in pictures than normal people and herd animals thinking in pictures.
• 25:33
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I don't know that she ever made the jump.
• 25:35
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I have not read all of her books.
• 25:38
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: There's a telepathic transference of this, but that was certainly my experience both with the cattle and I've got a podcast about the cattle and how much do they really understand because that was where I started realizing that, that these animals were understanding me at a level that was just incredible.
• 25:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Even before the horses.
• 26:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: So, you know, is it because I'm special?
• 26:05
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Because I have some clairvoyant powers?
• 26:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I mean, maybe.
• 26:09
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I don't think they're super strong.
• 26:10
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I think they've been strengthened by various practices and things that I've done in my life.
• 26:16
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: But I firmly believe that autistic, allistic, whatever your brain function is, that we all have this ability.
• 26:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It's simply a matter of believing and practicing and slowing down enough to Develop what is naturally there.
• 26:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: When we start talking about Gestalt and Jungian type therapies, we're already asked to understand and believe in our subconscious or our unconscious mind and what goes on there.
• 26:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: You know, and aren't these really part of the same thing?
• 26:56
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I mean this.
• 26:58
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Our brains are just so complex and fascinating, both with instinct and intuition and generational storage and cellular memory.
• 27:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: You know, I mean, you can make a case of antidotal science for all of these things that helps make it believable.
• 27:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Will there ever be hard, hard line science?
• 27:19
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I don't know.
• 27:20
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I, I, I really don't know, but that doesn't mean you can't believe in it.
• 27:23
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: That doesn't mean it isn't useful.
• 27:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And even if you don't completely believe in it, there are still ways to utilize the horse human connection in working with clients or in working with experiential learning and people.
• 27:38
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: When I came back from equinicity in British Columbia with Liz Ryan.
• 27:43
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: My horses began to act differently and I began to treat them differently.
• 27:48
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And I wanted to do these 20 case studies that she had, she was going to give some sort of a certification if you did the case studies and then brought them back and had a second visit.
• 27:58
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Well, I never got around to going back for the second visit, but I definitely completed all of the case studies and some really and I documented them and some really amazing things happened.
• 28:09
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And some stories that are.
• 28:11
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: You know, some of them are told in my previous podcasts here and there.
• 28:15
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: One that really, really stands out.
• 28:19
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: That I don't know that I have talked about that much was a young man, well he wasn't that young, he was in his early 30's, came and he was very conflicted, it was during the time of the pipeline incident with the Lakota and North Dakota and the military was out there trying to put a stop to this protest so the pipeline could be built.
• 28:46
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And this man, who came to my ranch to do a case study, was military, he was ex military.
• 28:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he was also of Native heritage.
• 28:57
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: He was very sad about all the things that were happening.
• 29:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he sat down with my horse, and this was a, an Appaloosa.
• 29:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Foundation bred Appaloosa Mustang.
• 29:09
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And if you don't know horses, Appaloosas are derived from a breed that was helped along by the Nez Perce, who were an Indian tribe, and they were war ponies.
• 29:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: So the genetic makeup of this horse was really in line with With this young man, and a lot of people don't realize that horses cry.
• 29:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: They, they shed tears and they cry from sadness.
• 29:40
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And they don't do it very often, but my horses did it several occasions during these case studies.
• 29:49
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And this horse sat with this man for over an hour.
• 29:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: With his head bowed in front of him, the man is on a chair.
• 29:58
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: In the pasture.
• 29:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And they cried.
• 30:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And I wasn't privileged to everything that happened, but it was over an hour.
• 30:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And they cried, and the horse did some licking and chewing, and they meditated, and the horse was moving energy off of him.
• 30:13
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he got up out of that chair and said, I have to go.
• 30:18
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I'm going home to get my pack, and I'm driving there.
• 30:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he did.
• 30:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: He left my ranch, he picked up his clothes, same day, headed on the road to go and be with these people.
• 30:29
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he contacted me after he was home, well he contacted me from being there and then also when he got home with the portion of the questionnaire about, you know, what happened to you during this.
• 30:46
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: He sent me pictures, too.
• 30:47
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he had these amazing experiences while he was there.
• 30:51
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: His military background really helped the Native protesters understand what these people's next moves were.
• 30:59
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: He saved people's lives as they were spraying water on the Natives, and if, if the men that had any facial hair.
• 31:07
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: it were protesting there, or even just having cold water that would instantly freeze on your face because it was that cold.
• 31:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: People would have suffocated had he not been able to use techniques he knew to quickly defrost their faces and, and he was a lot of help.
• 31:25
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: So one of the pictures he sent me was all of these military people standing up on this hill with their binoculars and their rifles overlooking the camp where the protesters were.
• 31:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Another experience he told me about was he went for a walk to just kind of decompress by himself.
• 31:44
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And as he was walking down this road, this long straight road, that had a rather high, like a 30 foot berm on the side of it, he heard this noise, and this rumbling, and this herd of wild horses.
• 32:02
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Came up this berm in to his side, but right there and the stallion was in the middle.
• 32:09
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he sent me this picture of this majestic stallion and this berm just lined with horses on either side of him.
• 32:18
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he said he just had, had goosebumps and was just overcome with all of this emotion.
• 32:22
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Feeling like, you know, these horses were supporting them.
• 32:28
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: As well.
• 32:29
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And he said he was flashing images of the horse that that I kept while this was happening.
• 32:36
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It's a wild story.
• 32:37
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It's his story.
• 32:39
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I got to witness the part of it that happened at my ranch.
• 32:42
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: But it's all part of the bigger story of our history with horses and how they are here to help.
• 32:49
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And how You know, crossing this divide, being brave enough, being open minded enough to see what's really out there.
• 33:01
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It benefits everybody.
• 33:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It just benefits everybody.
• 33:04
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And I hope, you know, my hopes are that at some point we start realizing the real value of the horse, that we start realizing what.
• 33:14
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: The horses in the wild who are cold.
• 33:17
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: They're still cold.
• 33:18
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Like a lot of them are killed off because there's not enough food because their leases are their government leases for these animals to be wild and preserved that are such a part of our heritage, such a part of our country.
• 33:32
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Such meaningful help for us and the human species are competing with cattle leases.
• 33:39
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I'm not saying that cattle aren't important, too.
• 33:43
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: But the politics that get involved are messy and unfair and there's just, there's a lot of work to do.
• 33:53
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Thanks for listening.
• 33:54
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: I love to hear questions and comments.
• 33:57
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And if you think you would like to be interviewed on my show, I would love to hear from you.
• 34:03
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: If you haven't subscribed, please subscribe.
• 34:06
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: There is a YouTube channel.
• 34:08
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: It is Irene Abel Horse Human Connection on YouTube.
• 34:12
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: There is the podcast, The Horse Human Connection Matrix, available lots of places.
• 34:18
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: And there's also a button to donate if you feel so moved.
• 34:21
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Although, I would much rather have you tell three friends than I would have you donate.
• 34:27
  Samson Q2U Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: Again, thanks for listening.