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The Narcissist's Playbook Finale: DM From Degen? · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Ken: Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey, Ken. We need to put a disclaimer. Yes. Sorry, this is a total spoiler. just like the last episode. We'll put a disclaimer in the title, when we publish this episode. So it this is funny. we both have in front of us Professor Sam Veknin DM to us. we teased last time at the end of the last episode that Professor Sam had actually sent us a DM randomly, and we're like, What? And it was long too. I sent it to I'm like, Ken, look, look, look. And he goes, it's very copy paste. Ken: It's copy paste. Like he's he's Lisa: very Ken: been sending that to the same message to everybody that's probably I'm assuming commenting on the Instagram. Lisa: Yeah, anybody and every everybody because I left a comment on the Narcissist Playbook their their profile and I said, is anybody else getting these DMs from him? And I got boom boom boom boom boom right after. Like I did, I did, like, shit, I deleted it. But then Vicente Mark, he wrote back Check your DMs. and eventually he addressed it like a few days later. He said, Send it to our legal team, legal at da-da-da-da-da. And I sent them screenshots of it because I thought it was weird. Like other I w we saved it. I actually took I don't know. Maybe I I'm just so paranoid because I've been burned by so many narcissists in my life that I have to like document the shit out of it. That's the first thing they tell you. If you're dealing with a narcissist, document them. I mean that's the Ken: It's crazy because it's like it's not even like you have to take like a mental note like you usually do. he literally sent us like a like a hard copy. So like the so the so yeah, the text is right there. If anytime you wanna start reading the text that he sent us Lisa: Okay. So first of all, okay, I wanna say when we got this DM, it didn't come we were not friends. We're not mutual friends on Instagram, so it goes into like a spam kind of message folder thing. So and it said proof Sam Venkin, but Veknan, sorry, I keep fucking up his name. But the thing is, he doesn't have a blue check mark. He's not verified or whatever. So I thought, is what? So I looked and I was like, is it like a spoof profile? Because you see that all the time on Instagram. People like to just spoof other people. But he had like 65,000 plus followers. So I Googled him and I guess that is his real Instagram profile, even though it's not verified. And I was like, okay. That's when I was like, This is weird. So it starts out like this. The Narcissist Playbook, and this is documentaries and quotes, and the companion podcast series contain defamatory hit pieces against me. The clips in the film are from a public role-playing event. My clients are present in the audience. The film and podcast were instigated by my former business partner, Parentheses, with whom I have had An acrimonious fallout in twenty twenty two end of parentheses Richard Granin and his current business partner, Mark Vicente. They lie shamelessly throughout the film. Granin produced another documentary hit piece against me in two thousand seven. Two thousand seventeen, sorry. I'm taking multiple kinds of legal steps against all of them. PS and then has twenty-eight and it's in in parentheses it has exclamation, exclamation, exclamation. Twenty-eight film festivals and all streaming platforms, and their legal departments have rejected the film. Tells you everything you need to know. The quote unquote victim in the film is an egregious liar. She's a collaborative Richard Granin and was his coaching client. Parentheses, I introduced her to him. She too used to be my business partner in Russia. And then he does the very boomer thing at the end. He signs his name. Cause like I Ken: Have to, have to. how will we know that it's not it's from him if he didn't sign his name in the message? Lisa: Yeah, how else would we know yeah it would yeah, it would just Yeah. So Ken: Lots lots of issues with that message. Lots of issues. Just Lisa: The math is it not math. Okay, he says i okay, Richard Granin produced another documentary hit piece against me in two thousand seventeen. Okay, this was shot within the last five years. So Ken: Yes, so was he already thinking preemptively that his cohort was already building a case against him? Because that's like that's the thing about like people that are chronically liars. Sometimes they get the cr timelapse wrong. Even if you're a good liar, you sometimes just get things wrong. You just do. And it's just just a case of him getting it wrong, because it's not true. Lisa: Two thousand seventeen. It that doesn't make sense. So you knew someone was your enemy until twenty seventeen, but you still decided to do another documentary with him. What? Ken: Well well here's the thing, Lisa. It's like he i in Sam's mind, he's already he's already a narcissist, so he was ready probably didn't like Richard the way it was. So he's probably thinking that it's like, yeah, this guy, this guy was probably building a case against me. 'Cause he's probably paranoid about that too. But the I I think it's it I think it just it doesn't yeah, the math didn't math. So and the calendars are all wrong, like dating's all wrong. So Lisa: It it makes no fucking sense. Like he no. Ken: It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't. It doesn't. But Lisa: I Okay. And another thing. So i a public role-playing event. Okay, maybe that could be true. You know, that's the thing about lies. It's like you sprinkle enough truth in there so it looks like the truth. But it and okay, we talked about this, Ken. He acts like this was specifically targeted to him. It was a hit piece against him because they interviewed four different narcissists. He was just one of And it's like, they had it out for me. And like, if they did, then why didn't they go after the other three narcissists who were in the film? Like it doesn't make sense. They completely focused on him. I so weird. And and also wanna just Ken: Well well he's he's he's only one of the narcissists in the film, but he's the head narcissist, right? Even their even s even kinda claiming that it's a hit piece against him. That's some narcissism Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: right there, right? Lisa: It's all about him, but like the other narcissists were just I mean, they got they got barely any time. You know, we talked about Ken: Yeah, they barely got any time. I I really think that they barely got any time because this became such an intriguing narrative to the to the documentary that one of the narcissists is actually someone that's very dangerous. And I think they came to a point where it's like, hey, that's a good plot piece for this for this documentary. This overarching theme is is it's wonderful. It ties everything together. But to to have the kind of like you know. Y think of yourself so highly that they do a hit piece solely on you and they planned it in advance, like how many years in advance? Like your your partner was apparently doing a hit piece about you five years before the fact. Right. Right. Lisa: Yeah. Right. Ken: It's a delusions of grandeur. It's like Lisa: Totally delusional. Ken: It and it's just is it just me is like boomer narcissists or like let's say he's not boomer, maybe like a little bit younger, but like people that are like people that have not spent their like entire youth on the internet, like people that have just like taken like G Gen X like boomers, do th why do they all like all these narcissists of this age write the same way? It's weird, right? It's like it's like parentheses, exclamation points, Like caps locks when there's no need to be like caps locked for anything. and and these like quotations like as a person like I love doing the quote works just just in person but when you're doing it like in in actual like text it does it doesn't work it doesn't land the same like when I do like the quote unquote thing when I do the fingers like I feel like that's that's funny when I do it in person but it's like when you do that like actually like it doesn't add anything to it. Quote unquote Exclamation Lisa: I okay. Ken: part twenty eight. Lisa: Y I mean, okay, I just looked up his his age. He's sixty five. Yeah. Ken: Is what is it was I get confused about the numbers. Is that like is that on the cusp? Lisa: No, that's boomer. Ken: That's a boomer, really? Lisa: yeah. Boomer is like Ken: What's a cutoff for Gen X? Lisa: Gen X is late fifties, I think. Ken: Hmm, so it's like, hmm goodness, man, goodness. So as soon as we saw it, it doesn't compute in our head, like it's like okay. Of course he wants to do damage control, right? But that this does this actually work to message a bunch of people that are interested in the documentary? That's why we're commenting on it. Is it really gonna skew like our perception of him and the documentary? Lisa: He's desperate. He's so Ken: It's weird, right? It's weird, right? You don't have to tell just normal users on the internet, right? Instagram users that are like interested in documentary. Lisa: But okay, so at the end, you know where he he talks about like the twenty-eight film festivals and all streaming platforms, the legal departments reducing the film, tells you everything you need to know. Okay, for that part, I'm not too worried about that. Like we talked about this in the last episode. Of course Hollywood's not gonna write this at all. Ken: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough for the you know, because you know, the people that are gonna pick it up are gonna look at it, it's like I don't want this to get out there. It's kinda like that. Lisa: I'm being called out, they're like, fuck, you're calling me out. No, no, no, no, no. We know that I he I maybe he like some people he send it to, they have no idea about the how the industry works. So if you're Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: just like someone who lives in the Midwest and has a normal job, you know, you're just like a nurse or whatever. maybe maybe this'll feel like it'll it'll seem like a valid point. In real life, you go, there's a lot of a lot of sketchiness in the industry, not all of it, but there's a lot of it. And I could see like just because a film festival, rejected the film, it doesn't mean it's a bad film. It just there's the politics behind it that people don't understand. It's a very, very highly, highly, highly political industry. If you're not kissing someone's ass, you're not being invited back into the set next time, you know? Ken: That's why it's it that's that that's why it's always like an interesting story when you see an actor or like a filmmaker or a director, and they've kind of burnt bridges and they it's not necessarily like they're difficult to work with, but they get that they get that label, right? They get they're difficult to Lisa: Yeah. Ken: work with. when you see that that that person's difficult to work with, they get blacklisted and you kinda wonder it's like, what did they do in particular? Did it was it something that they did that was bad or d were they just calling out someone or calling out something that was Just very perverse, right? Lisa: Y that's a great point because that reminds me of Harvey Weinstein. Remember when Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: a lot of actresses were basically blacklisted after they denied these advances? Ken: Well, a lot of it too, like the blacklisting of the actresses, they all said the same thing, right? Like, she's she's she's difficult to work with. He's a very diva. Lisa: Yeah. Right. That and I remember it was the Lord of the Rings movie and Peter Jackson came out after the allegations with against Weinstein and he said, I he was throwing around names like Ashley Judd and such and such and like, no no no, she's she's very difficult to work with. She's it's she's this, she's that, she's that and basically their careers are ruined Ken: that's tough in in Hollywood. If you get like hit with the label like difficult to work with or this person just doesn't play ball, that's pretty much what it is. Lisa: Mm. Ken: This person doesn't let me exploit them. too difficult Lisa: Yeah. Ken: to work with. They don't go with they don't go with what I w want them to do. And I mean, it's tough, right? When you're when you're an actor, if you step on the wrong toes, that could be your career right there. Lisa: Mm. Ken: Some people only get like one really straight shot. That's why I see like actors and actresses you you know what there's there's a point where they they come from it seems like they come out of nowhere, but there's it's it's they come from somewhere. It just takes time for them to get exposure, right? Like you see people like, this person just blew up overnight. It's like, no, no, no, they didn't. They didn't. Lisa: Mm. Ken: It's like it's years of hard work. They were in a bunch of stuff that you didn't watch. So it just seems it has that it has that scope of, yeah, this person just came out of nowhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that that's totally fine. And then you see them everywhere. like, yeah. What's Glenn Powell, you kinda see him everywhere. and you know, as co-star in one of the movies, Sidney Sweeney, you see them everywhere. And the thing is, you kinda understands like you get what as actor in Hollywood, you kinda wanna get while the getting's good, right? So you wanna do as much as you can. Who knows when this is gonna end, So you try to just say yes to everything to get yourself out there. And and hopefully you get good PR. But like a lot of people, they only have like a couple years. And that's really what the shelf life of a lot of these actors are, if you think about it. Because we always think it's like, this person was really big. How come they haven't been in a movie lately? And then you look at their their IMDB, it's like they have. It's just they don't get pushed to the front anymore, right? Lisa: Hm. You know, it that's an interesting getting pushed 'cause out of Mariah Carey's memoir, The The Meaning of Mariah, and she talks about how like There's w there's a whole chapter actually dedicated to J Lo she just calls her the entertainer. Basically, she was propped up by Tommy Matola, the head of Sony, to basically sabotage Mariah. It's really interesting. And it's someone like J-Lo who she can barely sing. She's not I mean, as an actress I think she's very decent. she did a great job in Selena, but I don't I As a singer, she's off key. Like I've heard her being off key. She's so for them to push her as much as they did because she was the anointed one, despite not having the vocal talent. Yes, she's very beautiful and she's a good dancer, but to prop her up the way that they did, like they call there's a whole thing I don't know if you've seen on YouTube where it's like the industry plant. Where it's like they were propped up by the industry for whatever reason, it's it's very conspiratorial minded, like the Illuminati or whatever. But like she's the industry plant and and they literally I mean, if you think about it, like someone with who doesn't write her own music, barely sings her own songs, because we found now we know that she like her background singers, they're the ones who They put their vocals all the way up during the the the chorus, because she can't sing that high. So it's like Ashanti is actually literally singing, or someone else, you know, like the ghost singers or background singers. And you're like, why did they prop her up? And it was it's a deliberate thing. And I'm wondering, how many J-Lo's are there? You know, in not just in music, but like actors, th I have theories about JLo. I won't say them here because they're I have no evidence, but I do have theories about her. she always, always, always gave me ruthless vibes from the beginning. You know, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I loved her and Selena, but like her demeanor and you know, if you're ever in the service industry, you hear murmurs of like who's a nice person, who's really rude to servers, who's r rude to like the valet guy, the i she Let's just say how do I say it? She was not good. She was not nice. Ken: Well a lot of I think that's it w people in the service industry or people that have worked under her have never said anything good about her. That must yeah. So there are people Lisa: No. No. no. like I sh I heard that she got a driver fired because he asked her how dare he ask her where she was going. Ken: Well, we talked about like, yeah, you don't want to be labeled as difficult to work with, but that's from the studios. I think from fans, and perception throughout the industry is that she is very difficult to work with and she's a bitch. Might as well just put Lisa: Yeah. Ken: it out there, I like, she's a bitch. Lisa: yeah, the the we talked about the taco flavored kisses. That's basically how she is in real life. That's that's her. Ken: Mm-hmm. I'm I'm sure of it. And and the thing is, it's you talked about Mariah and Mariah's he she also doesn't have a good rep reputation, so it's Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it's like a bad person talking shit about a bad person, right? But Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: what but one of them usurped her as you know, like the the industry standard, I guess. And even so, like I watch her stuff as like I don't get the allure. I really don't. Great dancer. Huh? Lisa: For J Low? J Lo? Ken: For JLo, yeah. Mariah Mariah is like the voice alone is like it gets you it gets you into the stadium. J Lo doesn't have that. Lisa: Yeah. And she writes her own music. Yeah. But J Lo doesn't write her own music though. So Ken: W which is which which is totally fine, like 'cause when you're a pop musician, like it doesn't really matter if you write your own music. If you write your own music, great. But you s you're a lot of it's like there that's why that's why like you have people that are songwriters, right? There's a lot of people that are s that have made careers out of being songwriters. So it's not necessarily a it I don't think it's a knock on someone that doesn't write their own music, especially if they're a pop musician. It's it's it's fair. It's fair. Lisa: That's fair. That's fair. You get really good vocals, but maybe you're not the best songwriter. Which Ken: Yeah, it's a and and the reason hey, I'm I'm saying this because like there's there's there's a requirement for people that could do songwriting. Like if you if you think about it, like people like Kesha, they kind of got their start being a songwriter. And then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: a lot of it's like, Well, you you know, have you have you watched K pop Demon Hunters yet? Well th well well you you know about it, right? Yeah, it's really fun. Lisa: No. Should I? Should I? No, I I don't know. Ken: It's really fun, but it's like it's like the main singer of you know, like the the main singer that provides the vocals for the songs. Like she's a she started off as like a K pop like trainee and she didn't make it. So she she pivoted to being a songwriter, and that's how she got and this is kind of like her first big break. Being in her thirties, like she was only a songwriter for the longest time. She was writing songs for like other K-pop artists. So that's how she made a living. And this is she finally got her shot. And you kind of think about it, it's like, yeah, there's people that have w written songs their entire lives and they get that one shot. So it's it's always a few good stories. But th I mean, there's nothing wrong with someone that just sings songs that other people write. That's totally fine. Like not n it's like not every director writes their own stuff, like write their own screenplay, right? That's why they're screenplay Lisa: Right. Ken: writers. There's other people, there's source material. So I don't think it's like a bad thing. That doesn't necessarily if they could sing and or if they could just provide like entertainment, like they're a good dancer or something like that. They're not totally horrible. I think that's totally fine. But it's interesting that you know, J Lo got that from Mariah Carey, 'cause they're both cut from the same cloth, I feel like. Just one's a really good singer and one's a really good dancer. Lisa: Mm. Ken: So together they make Beyonce. Lisa: Okay, all right. Ken: Yeah, you put you put you s you squish them together like like like Play Doh and then you create the perfect singer and it's Beyonce, isn't it? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I mean Beyonce's not she's cutthroat too, so I don't but I don't think to the degree that she's hadn't well, D.Va's gonna be D.Va, but I d some I don't know, man. We don't ch we could talk like all day about this stuff. It's like okay. Mm-hmm. Lisa: I know, we're getting off topic because the whole point was like just because you you know, you got rejected from all these film festivals, it means it's a bad film. No. Ken: Doesn't mean a thing. Doesn't doesn't mean it's a bad film. Doesn't mean it's a hit piece. Sometimes hit pieces get picked up. So there's like movies that obviously are kind of a little like biased towards something and they still get picked up. So that's not indicator of that at all. Lisa: Mm no. Ken: we already have preconceived notions about this guy, Sam. We already got preconceived notions about the documentary. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: So I'm not sure what he's trying to do here. I really Lisa: he Ken: don't. It's to get your story out there, I guess. But you see that a lot. People that say outlandish things like I'm gonna get my lawyer, right? A lot of the times when people say that, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna force litigation or like I'm gonna find a lawyer and sue you. A lot of times Lisa: Gonna sue you. I'm gonna sue you. Ken: even if they follow through, like they're full of shit. Lisa: that's another thing. I mean, okay, let's say he threatens to sue them. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: that shit comes out, you know, in the discovery process all of this. Ken: Yeah, that's that's that's the most major thing, right? About being yeah, you're interested in law. It's like, yeah, if you make a claim that someone is defaming you or something like that Lisa: Mm-hmm. Slander, whatever. Ken: Yeah. Yeah, this is discovery phase. It's it's everything's supposed to come out. Lisa: all the skeletons in the closet. W I mean, and someone someone like Sam, I can see him having more skeletons in his closet than a cemetery, you know? So Ken: Who knows, Lisa: yeah, if if he wants to sue, I don't think that's beneficial to him. He doesn't I don't think people realize people they just the narcissists are like they're on a w fucking war path anyone who's ever crossed the narcissist, they will come after you like try to go back and destroy you. They're vindictive as fuck. So someone like Sam, I can see him. And I don't know if you've heard Mark Vicente. He was saying on Instagram, like the online stuff was being sabotaged. And I wonder if he was basically tacitly saying, This is Sam. He's just basically trying to sabotage us. Ken: what way? Kinda just like messaging people and, you know, try to reach Lisa: Well well he Ken: out to Lisa: No no no no no no no no. Like they were supposed to release the film like a mont at least a few weeks ago before to the early donors like me. they extended it and they're like, we're being attacked virtually and I don't know Sam was doing some stuff behind the scenes and I have a feeling it was Sam just doing anything and everything it can to sabotage the film. But and it's out there now, so sorry Sam. Ken: Well, I'm I'm assuming it was he call of calling in like favors and, you know, what bot farms, other stuff? I don't know. I'm not sure what's the extent of that Lisa: But probably dark web. I mean, you're in IT, so you know, but you know there's a a lot of dark web stuff that people can do to sabotage someone else. Ken: Well too websites and stuff like that and you know, who knows what what the extent of was. But here's the thing, if you if you want to sue someone for like defaming you or something like that. Yeah, all that stuff you have to prove that it actually caused damages and that act that allegation is false. Lisa: Well, damages, I think he's probably lost a lot of clients. I know he does have clients 'cause people do follow him because they want that insight. Ken: And also, yeah, and also is he really a doctor? Lisa: He doesn't have a degree in psychology from what I hear. It was like a is his PhD is from something else. Like unrelated to psychology. Ken: So he is a doctor of something else. Lisa: I'm a doctor, like cool, can you save my life? No, but I can you know. What he I mean actually Zim Vaknin right, they talked about that. his credentials. He doesn't have they talked about he has a PhD in philosophy slash physics from a the non traditional accredited Pacific Western University. So it's like a you know those diploma mills? Ken: Yeah, a non accredited is very problematic. Lisa: He has no formal accredited degree or license in clinical psychology, though he serves as a professor of psychology. okay. Sure. Ken: Well and all and also in other countries they have different standards of who could be but professor. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Like in in America, like you you minimum has to have like a like a bachelor's degree. Lisa: Yeah. When I when Ken: So Lisa: I went to state school y a lot of my professors they just had only masters, but a lot of them were great. They were very knowledgeable. It doesn't mean that Ken: Yeah. Yeah, so it's very different. I guess you could be like a you could be a lecturer with certain credentials, but every country is kinda different. Lisa: Did he lose clients? Probably. Does he have the credentials? No. But okay, I wanna be fair. And just because you don't have the credentials, it doesn't mean you're not a good therapist. Because he has insight, about narcissism that you don't really get unless you know, he he he gives you It peels behind the curtain, you know? He shows you behind the curtain, like, this is how I think. This is how I feel. This is how r I really, you know, really th feel about you. for a lot of people, it's been very beneficial. And they'll even say in the comments, like, I learned a b I learned a lot from him because I'm like, I thought this person really felt this way about me, but they really were just they thought I was just their puppet, I was their this, and they went through the exact same playbook that he was talking about and To be fair, I'm sure a lot of what he says is very beneficial to people. But it's like every cult leader, right? They have a lot of stuff that's very beneficial at the beginning. And then once you're deep into it, that's when they go, that's when they change. You're like, okay. You want to go back to it? Yeah. Ken: Which is tot Yeah, which is totally fine. But here's the thing. If the allegations against him are true and he did pull this kind of like pretty much crimes against like his patients, I mean what what's left? It's like what the l might be like charging him with crimes, right? That's the only thing Lisa: yeah. Ken: that will prime maybe like stop him? Lisa: But yeah. Who who the fuck knows? Ken: But who knows? But who knows? Who knows? Who knows? spoilers here, but he you do get a part where Richard's driving in his car and this is like post fac, right? the the cat's out of the bag. And you hear someone call him, like a lady's voice, someone's calling him and they're kinda like berating him on behalf of Sam. So he's just having a lot of these people there are like in his pocket, right? And he could throw out there. I think a I think some Lisa: Yeah. I don't know. Ken: of them were probably his patients or, you know, people that have fallen for his trap. And he just kinda like tossing them out there, yeah. Lisa: his names, his names. so he is a like a cult leader kind of a thing. They have their flying monkeys to do all the dirty work for them. Ken: And yeah, remember remember the end of the documentary when, you know, Isla is like cornering him, right? In into Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: this like interview. Who is the lady and the and and the young man that was with him? Cause the lady was like, I want to hear these allegations, right? Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Who is she? Lisa: Fuck I don't remember. Ken: Exactly. They I don't even think they say it, right? Lisa: Mm mm. No. No, I I Ken: It's it's it's not his wife, right? It's like it I don't to my knowledge, I'm not sure if he's married, but Lisa: Let me look him up. I I can't find anything online about his marital status. Mm. Spouse. yes, he does have a spouse. Ken: it seems like his wife does have an Russian accent. Lisa: Yes, that's his wife. Yes, the black hair. big brown eyes. Yeah, that's his okay, that's his wife. Yes. Yeah, okay. We'll cover that up. boy. If that's his wife, fuck. Ken: So is that young Lisa: if Ken: I I think a lot of information about him is very limited. Like Lisa: It just it has this like when you talk about credentials, it's more about you know the books he's published and his it's it's it's work related. What he wants you to see. Ken: Yeah. So it it's what he w what he wants you to know about, right? Lisa: Right. His impressive credentials as far as I wrote this book. Yeah. But yeah, the lady is is Lydia. Probably Lydia. yeah, I do recognize her. I guess that's his wife. Unless she's another narcissist or sociopath. Ken: I think they blur out her face, right? I think sh her face Lisa: I don't know. Ken: was blurred out, so it's like we don't know who it is. You only have the voice. They didn't they didn't doctor the voice, I don't think. Lisa: she has herself as a CEO and founder at Narcissus Publications. my god. Okay. It's crazy. And well, I mean, Sam Wahi wasn't the only narcissist. They also had the Lee guy with his twin. And it I I felt, you know, I meant to bring this up. I should have brought this up in the last time about, you know, Lee being a twin, and his twin is not the narcissist. My mom is a twin. And her twin sister is also a narcissist like her. Ken: So it's like different right there. So it's like okay, so they both turned out the same. Lisa: Yeah, I mean we don't know how both of the twins, Lee and his brother, were treated, to one become and whatnot. We had some assumptions, like, Lee was a golden child. And his brother was probably like maybe the scapegoat, the invisible child, the helper, whatever. I think with my mom and her sister, they both I mean, there were like what? They had twelve other siblings, you know? One of the oldest ones, their job was to take care of the younger ones, very neglected, grew up very poor. my mom would always try to like make me feel guilty. I ever wanted anything, 'cause she'd be like, Well, I didn't have any food to eat when during lunchtime at school, so I had to just suck on my thumb. Or if I was lucky I'd had tortillas and beans, to eat. Ken: well, the question is, is like like your your aunts and uncles are any of them narcissists? Lisa: Interestingly enough, a lot of my aunts are. I'll just say that. Yeah. The uncles not no. if I would this were to say, I would just say maybe the one or two have the traits. but full-blown like NPD. It's the more the female side. And which is interesting because the boys were more doted on. Because i you know, with the whole macho culture, my grandmother she favored the boys. But the women there were just the females their job was to take care of the younger kids. They have to do all of the housework. They are basically treated like slaves. Ken: So I wonder how much of it is your ants in general were just like I guess for lack of a better term, targets and the sum of what they became was due to like child abuse. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: If yeah, if not physically, mentally too. So it's like there there has to be something that creates that narcissist, right? Lisa: Yeah, and I don't I don't think it was just that. I have a feeling it was a lot of essaying too that went on that was intergenerational. Ken: Lord. Lisa: I have my doubts. Well my theories. the way things have turned out. Like I could just be like, yeah, I see it. Ken: Well, certain things are like e well, even this documentary it it tells you what breeds a narcissist. And even Sam tells his life story. And I think that part of it may be genuine. Like that part where he's talking about how he was abused. That might be that Lisa: Yeah. Ken: that part of it is probably true. So Lisa: Yeah, I don't I doubt he was lying. If he did, maybe he embellished, but I'm sure part of it was Ken: Maybe embellish, but that's not somet that's not something that well, I I don't wanna say like he'll seek the gain for that, but that's just that's that's interesting insight that kinda tells you the recipes of making a narcissist as a grown up. Lisa: Mm-hmm. I mean, yeah, 'cause when I talk to one uncle, he'll even say, like, you know, my grandfather he worked long hours, came home, and if you know, with the twelve kids acting up, he would just get like an electrical wire and just like beat them. So Ken: I think it's very interesting 'cause my I I know my my father's family, like it it was like my my grandfather was kind of like he doesn't like children. Like he he wasn't totally like just like abusing his children. W I I think a lot of it was just like verbal abuse. he had like eight kids and it's weird because I think like most like I think all my aunts, like they're I don't think they have any kind of like narcissistic traits. They didn't. Lisa: Hmm. Ken: I think my dad might be the only one that has those traits. I have an uncle that probably could be. ever since he got sick, like he's he's a little more introverted now, but he he is like someone that will spout like some mean stuff to other people in the family. And I have an uncle that was he was like the youngest, but he's thought highly of himself, but not to I don't think it's to the level of my dad. Like my dad just Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: he's I think he's he's different. He's different than the other two, so of the of the boys. Lisa: How many siblings did your dad have? Ken: So my dad has I think he has five siblings. I think he actually had seven. I think two passed away in their youth. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: So he actually he has like one of like six kids, but he's supposed to be one of eight kids. He's the oldest son. Mm-hmm. Lisa: He's the oldest. Okay. Cause I I always wonder if birth order has like a some sort of bearing on it, but I don't know. Ken: Does it? Lisa: supposedly I've heard yes and no. It's very conflicting and it's very anecdotal. There's there's no studies. That's the thing. Ken: I don't think I don't think birth order might have anything well, they might have something to with it, but it's not the only contributing factor, I don't think. You can't guess it f but it's just by birth order. It's not that kind of thing. Whereas it's like it's it's likely that you could probably guess it based on how they were treated by their parents. Like if there was Lisa: Yeah. Ken: any kind of abuse, then that's a probably a better indicator than actually birth order. Lisa: I think with the birth order thing is that parents tend to treat their kids based on the birth order. So like the firstborns generally they they put a lot of more responsibility on you, especially if there's younger siblings. It's like, can you help out with your younger siblings? I'm busy right now. Can you give your sibling a bottle? can you change their diabetes? There's a lot of Yes. Ken: Yeah, per the parentification. It's usually it's usually the oldest kid, yeah. Lisa: Right, right, right. So they put a lot of Yes, they parentify you and then, cr that creates problems, you know, especially later on in life. And so I do think birth order it is a contributing factor to some extent. Not a hundred percent, but it does because of the way they treat you differently. Ken: Yeah, but it's it's it's it's not it's not it's not easy to use the birth order as like the I guess the the Lisa: Determining factor. Ken: Yeah, yeah. 'Cause it's it's there's other things that actually have like a bigger influence, such as like how they were treated. if there was SA involved, was there any other kind of abuse involved? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: if the parents was a narcissist themselves. So it's like Lisa: Yeah, I Ken: So what show sh so what should we do about the Sam message? should we message it back? I'm pretty sure it's just like a auto generated message. Who knows? Lisa: Yeah, he probably has one of his it's probably one of his minions running his like social media. Copy Ken: Copy paste, copy paste, copy paste, yeah. Lisa: paste. this person w left a message. Paste. This one paste. You know, it just c Ken: we could we could message her back. Thank you for your input. I will look into it. I don't know. Lisa: I'm too scared to be because this guy, he seems like the type I don't think he's just a narcissist. I think he might actually be like a sociopath or like psychopath. And if you're dealing with that level, you cannot you can't even like remotely deal with them because they will just come after you. Like you're you're either their friend or you're their enemy. There's no real one. Ken: Here's the interesting part, we're not we're not part of his hit list yet because we're not big. We're not the people that made a documentary about him. We're not putting him on blast. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, good we're we're are here we're s are we slandering him right now? Ken: We are not, we are literally following whatever the documentary told us. Lisa: Can you imagine after this he's like, You guys there's a r going after us fuck. Ken: Well we must think highly of ourselves that someone so distinguished as Sam, could go after us, right? Lisa: I mean the Narcissist playbook, that one has like a lot of views. It just it way, way, way more than our like the most popular one with the Michael Jackson episode. Ken: yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. so yeah, if anybody hasn't listened to the first episode, which would be episode twenty, I think it got recommended on YouTube, which for podcasts really boostes up because it's a very long like recording. It's like a fifty minute long thing. It usually is a lot of stuff you watch on YouTube, like how long could it be? But it's like podcasts are I think they're classified differently on YouTube. it's also on YouTube Music. So but I think at the last we saw it was like on the s I think on the second week it it got like up to like 620 listens. So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ken: yeah, so how our metric is from our provider it wasn't just like someone clicked into it and just clicked out of it. so it's it's slightly significant in the way that it's like it's logging like a substantial listen time. So that that's the most we got. So it's it's it's obviously I think there's some algorithm that's pushing it. Lisa: I you know, I've told you this, Ken. I think well, my theory is that people click on it 'cause it just says the narcissist playbook, so they think it's the the movie and the thumbnail has Evan Rachel Wood. So they're like, this is the movie and then they're like, it's just a podcast about the movie Like a review and they go, fuck this Ken: Well no no no one's no no one spent the time to we have open comments and if if you s you're on there, you could leave a comment. No one left a nasty comment or a message. we we did get a good amount of likes for it, so someone listened to it and a good amount of them were like, neat. And subscribe. So we I think we picked up a good thirty or forty subscribers just on that episode. Lisa: Yeah, we're we're up to sixty nine subscribers on YouTube. Ken: I think we lost one. It was seventy. Now it's back to sixty hide. But yeah, Lisa: it is. Ken: yeah. But it's like, yeah, it's it's actually should mention this is actually our six month anniversary. Like we I think we s released a first episode six months ago. Lisa: No! Ken: Mm-hmm. It's been six months. this is officially the twenty second episode, so we actually crossed the threshold of what remember the thing I mentioned where it's like if you cross episode twenty one, we're pretty much the top ten percent of podcasts that are still going because like a lot of them die out really quick. Lisa: Yes. Ken: We have no shame when we keep going. This is episode Lisa: You know, yeah. Ken: twenty two, if people are still listening. Lisa: You know what? You just have to keep going. That's that Ken: And and and honestly, it's only six months and you think you're gonna make it big, you really have delusions of grandeur. Nobody it it's just a thing where people see people that are successful and it's like, they made it immediately. No, no. Takes a lot of work. one thing I wanna bring up since we brought up pop music, look at Chappell Roan overnight sensation. Do you know how long Chappell Roan was doing the little girl with the guitar thing? Just normal girl with the guitar thing with the dress, like like performing before she finally got this big break where she kind of like has like an interesting kind of like niche style. It took her forever. you look at her older stuff as like, wow, it took her a while to find that image and that look that kind of like aura. Because she looked totally different. So it's like a lot of the stuff it's like I I think a lot of people just see something as like, yeah, it's instant success. And that's w what's so dangerous about like influencers. you're just seeing the fruits of the labor, the sum of all the stuff, like instantly. It's like, this must be easy. It's not. It's not easy. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Even look okay, even you look at the actors that are like big now, how how much bullshit did they have to go through in order to even get there, right? well Lisa: I know. How many Harvey Weinsteins did they have to th no, she's fu s fucked up. Ken: Good lord. But but I'm just but well see well, I'll talk about like the Mr. Mr. Weinstein, but you look at we mentioned Glenn Powell from earlier in the episode. Do you know do you remember Glenn Powell, like one of his first roles was he played Longfinger Kid in Spy Kids 3D? If you watch Spy Kids 3D, he's like one of the background kids and all he's credited with is Longfinger Kid. Lisa: How about it? Ken: And then this guy, this guy is like the it guy of Hollywood at the moment. So it it takes a while, right? You know, he's like a top gear maverick, he's in what twisters, and you know, he people see this guy, so man, he's everywhere. I'm sick of him. It was like, let the guy have his moment. It took him a while to get there. So it's it's like a lot of a lot of this overnight success is such a fake thing that they push on people, right? Nothing's easy. I think the only thing you could think of as easy is if you we talk about like Nepo babies. They have it the easiest in the way that if they fail, they still have a nest egg. and plus they have what it they have like a inn, right? They have a connection. So that that's why people were mad at them because it's like, they're taking the easy way. Like I was like, no. in that case, it's it's you still need to be good. If you suck, people will kick you out of industry quick. If you're not good, right? No offense to Paris Hilton. I think did she have a new album come out? I'm not sure. But I remember the first one. That one was like, ooh. I don't know what to say about that. Lisa: No shade to Paris, I whatever. Ken: Well, well, there remember y I think you mentioned s about h her issues too, right? I didn't even know about most of that like the problems that she was having. So Lisa: right, when she got sent to that troubleteen industry camp thing facility. I think Ken: Yeah. Lisa: first it was camps and then there was facility and then I don't know. But yeah, she got it shut down. I saw the other day she posted that she got that is it in Idaho I wanna say? Utah? One of those. They had the that school and they got shut down finally. That was for semen. Ken: So w so when are we gonna see a documentary about this? Lisa: Maybe soon. I don't know. She does Ken: It is. Lisa: everything. She's ver she's a very busy lady. Ken: Which which is fine. Like, I think Lisa: Yeah. Ken: she I mean if she's doing productive things and you know, like she's not she's not out Lisa: Mm-hmm. She really is. Ken: there like doing evil stuff to people is like then then don't do that. but Lisa: Yeah. Ken: if she wants to if she wants to release another album, she wants to do other things like if fashion or you know, just even just be like a heiress and stuff like that and maybe go through with this documentary, there's a lot of things she could do. I don't think she's in a bad place. I think she just grew up, right? Like a that's a lot of people we've We look at like people that are in the the spotlight and we're like, Man, this person's stupid and then you've realize you're like, they're twenty one. Remember how do Lisa, were you stupid at twenty one? Just wondering. 'Cause I was stupid. I'm dumb as hell at twenty. Lisa: Yes and yes and no. Like in a lot of ways I was very mature. Even people were like, you seem so old so much older 'cause I grew up really fast. Really, really fast. I didn't get to have a childhood, so I was already I was always an adult. But in a lot of ways I wasn't because you know my brain wasn't fully formed, that like I acted on ways that were not it w I was just like there was a ways that I was like advanced and other ways that I was like behind. Yeah, it was it was a weird thing. And I see it now, but Ken: Yeah, a lot of it is like emotional maturity. It takes a while for emotional maturity. There's some people that are physically mature that don't get emotionally mature. it's not a given. So it doesn't it just because you're like a 40-year-old or 50-year-old doesn't mean that you're like 40 or 50 year old mentality sometimes. You still think like a kid. And social media probably brings that out of people too. It's like they revert back to like a 20-year-old just talking crap on social media. Lisa: Mm. Ken: But there's a lot of it where it's like, I mean, if you don't get like a nice good like adult influence and to teach you like how to, you know, function, like you kinda just learn it by yourself. So you mature it quickly in the way there's like, okay, I could function by myself. But a lot of the emotional maturity and stuff like that and you know, like regulating your emotions and actually knowing what not to do and things like that in like the public space, it's like it that comes later, I think. you know, the frontal lobe thing, it's like I was just I have coworkers that are like way younger than me, like they're in their twenties. I'm like, dude, as long as you don't do anything illegal, you're stupid until you're twenty five or twenty six. You really are. You're allowed to make mistakes as long as it's not legal. I always stress that. But let's say you wanna, you know, like drink all night and then go to work in the morning. When you're like twenty four or twenty five, it's like, go ahead, do it. You wanna date around? Go ahead, do it. you wanna Do stupid things and say stupid things that hopefully doesn't follow you. But it's like, yeah, you could you could be a kid, right? you're you're afforded that grace during that time. I do I do meet kids that are like in their twenties, like early twenties, like, I think I screwed up everything. It was like, You have time. You have time. I a lot of them always mention to me as like, yeah, I had a I was going out with someone, I thought it was the one. It was like, dude, you're like twenty-two. You'll figure it out. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: The ones I worry about are like I'm 22, I've been married for three years. I was like, crap, I don't think that's gonna last in modern day. It worked for our parents, maybe. And not for your parents, but for my parents have been together for quite a while. But yeah. you should really know yourself and find yourself before you like start dedicating yourself to someone else. That's how troubles start. That's how trouble starts. That's really what it is. Not trying to be too preachy, but you know. Lisa: yeah. Ken: this is part of palate cleanser, right? So yeah. So so we go even Lisa: we're waiting. Ken: further. Sam, don't sue us because we didn't say anything defamatory because this was in the documentary. So disclaimer, we're just following what's in the documentary and what you told us in the documentary. So if the stuff that was mentioned in the documentary was misconstrued, we apologize, but you kinda gave us the playbook. you showed everybody how you operated. So unless you're lying about that, what is it? Lisa: I mean, what's it gonna sue us for? I w w Ken: It's a threat, right? Like people like threatening to sue people. Like, you know, South Park. I'm gonna sue you. It's like that. it's so easy to say that you're gonna sue someone until you give it to your lawyer and it's like, I don't think we could sue him for this. Why not? Well, discovery. All this stuff gonna come out. Like you you know, they're they're when you're getting sued, they're allowed to gather information about you too and anything about it to defend themselves. I don't think people understand that people think they have money, I'm gonna sue someone because they're saying bad things about me. It's like it doesn't work if what they're saying about you is true. If it's true, then yeah, you did you have no grounds at that point. I'm not sure. Has he lost business because of this? Do you think he lost business? Lisa: I wouldn't be surprised if like some of his clients have they dropped him and they realize like, fuck, this guy's way more toxic than I thought. Yeah. But I mean it's a questionnaire tale, right? 'Cause with narcissists, you're not you think you're getting one thing, but behind the scenes, they have this whole agenda Yeah. Yep. Ken: you you always have to be careful 'cause even you s look at that's like look at Richard. Like you're thinking that RC is your business friend, all that stuff. Look what happens when you like accuse him of something. Lisa: Mm. he's not just going after the documentary, he's going after Richard himself. Ken: And apparently apparently he thought that Richard was already doing a hit piece on him five years prior in twenty seventeen. Right. Someone Lisa: That the film me. huh. Right. Ken: got the timeline wrong again. Lisa: huh. my god. Yeah, it's so stupid. Ken: Well Lisa, I knew you were gonna screw me over. So in 1975, I prepared this thing against you. I wasn't born then. I wasn't born then. But I did it from be I did it from beyond. good lord. It's Lisa: Yeah, before we were both born. yeah. Like a whole fifteen years before we were born. Yeah. Uhhuh. Okay. Ken: like really. Well, at least they were born. But it's to say it's really interesting that he said that. It was like, well, in 2017 he was trying to do a documentary against me. It's like, so why in 2022 were you so friendly with him and doing business with him? Lisa: yeah. Ken: Why? Lisa: I could see him going th it was a typo or something. Ken: Yeah, that's t that's totally fine. That's totally fine. I think details, details. you can't get when you're mad about something, you can't write you you're not at the right frame of mind, you get dates wrong. Lisa: Mm. I can and no Ken: Well, but you but y but a lot of it's like when narcissists attack you, it becomes like a ad hominem attack, right? It's n it's not about the credibility of what you said. Yeah, it's it's attacking things that are like had nothing to do with the argument. Lisa: Right. It it's name a bunch of name calling. That's basically it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ken: they only had like twenty eight people decline them. I was like, what's that gotta do with anything? Which means you don't have drawing power. Lisa: yeah. Mm-hmm. Ken: You should tell him that we he doesn't have drawing power, I guess. They look at Sam Vancken and it's like, who's that? They were like, We don't want that guy on there. He's not famous. Get us someone famous. Get us Harvey Weinstein. The people were like, now it's like, get us a narcissist like Harvey Weinstein. at least people knew who the heck Harvey Weinstein, not this you know, guy on YouTube saying that he's a narcissist and getting, fifty thousand followers. That's nothing in compared to like Harvey Weinstein, right? Lisa: Yeah. Ken: 'Cause you could even tear down someone that's like, yeah, you you're self important, right? But narcissists, like, they know. They're very insecure, so Lisa: Yeah, very deep down. They are very, very insecure. to the point where it's really Ugh yeah, whatever. Where we like we talked shit about Sam and you know, our thing is about narcissism and I'm wondering if people go, What does this have to do with toxic parents and stuff? Well, you know, if you come from a toxic Household, you basically came from a cult. And if you are no contact, low contact, or somehow trying to heal yourself, you're basically a a cult survivor. trying to deprogram and and that's basically us. That's why, you for me. When I was learning about cults and stuff, I'm like it resonated, but I didn't realize to the extent. And then when someone said years ago, it's a single family cult. my god, no wonder I I can definitely relate to all this shit. right. They're the exact same tactics. Is it the same playbook, you know? That's why is it narcissist playbook? Either whether you're in a single family cult or an abusive relationship, what's it called? one-on-one cult or cult of one, whatever it's called. That's why for me it was very important to watch this documentary and to talk about it. I think it's very, very, very beneficial. Cause I know for me, man, if I had all this information that there's it's available now. Wow, it would have explained everything. my god. But I don't know. What what do you think, Ken? Ken: Well, yeah, to add to that, it's I think it it explains a lot of how narcissism and just like toxic parenting kind of coincides with each other, right? if you watch a documentary, it's a lot of the people that are that are narcissists, it's from childhood trauma. some of them are from their parents. How they retreated from their parents. what you see in the documentary, it's like this person was a kid of narcissists and he was abused, by like a family, like confidant And he didn't become a narcissist himself, but he p carries that trauma. And then you see it for other things, maybe like for for the lady that was saying that, she's like a narcissist and her mom was very abusive, like mommy dearest and stuff like that. You c you see all those things and like there has to be something that correlates, right? And this is this is what it is. we're just trying to kind of focus that that aspect of toxic parenting that involves narcissism and it really is like a very hazardous thing to having a kid grow up into like a well functioning adult. That's not like, you know, like a sociopath or something like that, or a criminal or something like that, or someone that's gonna perpetuate that violence onto the next generation. it's just it's just something that you have to know. I think it it goes a hand in hand. I think it's a lot of it is our issues for our parents is due to narcissism, from our parents' end. So how could we not platform this documentary and talk about it? it is very important that it it it is something that goes hand in hand. not all bad parents are narcissists and you know stuff like that, the old adage, and what we're talking about is there's a lot of intermingling with this. So it can't be just separated from each other. Right, Lisa? Lisa: Yep. Yep. No, I you're right. And Man, I hope this movie just like blows the fuck up. It tells Hollywood, you know what? You were wrong. There's no audience for this. Every fucking person is watching it. This audience is they're dying for something this important. I I that's what we're hoping. It just gives the middle finger, right? it's like the the back rooms. It's the you know, these tiny independent films that make this huge amount of money, which I'm sure the studio people were like, this is not Fast and Furious 87. This is not, you know, insert, remake, sequel, whatever. I I'm hoping this is it. And You know, with that, I think this is we're pretty good to go. It's the end of the episode. Yeah. What do you think, Ken? Ken: I think it should be the end of episode too. It's you know, it's getting late and we have jobs and other stuff and Lisa's dying from her allergies, so Lisa: I am. Ken: Should end it here, right? Lisa: I know. Fuck. It's just weird because it's it's a summer, but the spring is supposed to be like supposedly th the worst time for allergies. But this Ken: have you seen how bad the air is outside? Like it it just looks like it's grey every day now. Lisa: Well there's a fire. A fire but Ken: Again. Lisa: Yes, you know about the the fire up in Burbank? Ken: I don't know. There's a bunch of fires everywhere. There was a fire at a frickin' there was fire fire in a frickin' warehouse. There's a fire in Lisa: Yes. Like P palm bell area. no, Lancaster area. because of the dry air. Yeah, it's a bad recipe, so everywhere. So I'm I'm close to yeah, I'm Ken: Fire, fire, something, something, pants on something. Lisa: close to one of the fires, so I'm like my allergies are fucking killing me. Ken: My eyeballs are dry as hell. That could be from it too. Lisa: Well you're staying at a screen all day though. Ken: I think my eyeballs are probably gonna fall out. Lisa: fuck. Yeah, I remember when I was like had a a desk job and staring at the screen eight hours a day, my eyes would get so dry I had had to go to like an ophthalmologist and she gave me like the like extra strength eye drops and she's like, Use these glasses and do this and try to look away and do a twenty seconds here like okay, I mean I can try, but you know. Ken: You know, that we'll be per it'll be perfect if we just had a real job. Well, not have a real job, we have this as a job, so we don't have to really stare at the screen. We could just talk to each other, and close our eyes and you know. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: I don't think at this part that you're gonna see a video version of us. I know I have a friend that's also doing a podcast, and I'll mention them later on, but yeah. But yeah, they're having it on video. I was like, that's very brave. I was like, we're not brave enough to be on video. We're not. Lisa: No. Ken: Unless you want to see me like picking my nose during the like the podcast. Which I'm not doing by the way, but I'm just saying I might Lisa: That's hot. On that note, Ken: I know right? Paris Paris Hilton. Lisa: I think it's time to go. Ken: Sorry Paris Hilton about what I said, be friends. That is hot. Okay, bye Lisa. Bye everyone. Lisa: Bye, Kara. Bye.