Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1219 - The Surprising Truth About Sports Success From Australia's Most Decorated Olympian: An Interview With Emma McKeon

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#1219 - The Surprising Truth About Sports Success From Australia's Most Decorated Olympian: An Interview With Emma McKeon · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:06
Speaker 1: Today, I'm a Happy Families podcast, an interview that I
0:08
Speaker 1: am more excited about than just about any conversation I've
0:11
Speaker 1: ever had. On the podcast, we're going to talk to
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Speaker 1: Emma McKee. And Emma is Australia's most decorated Olympic athlete ever,
0:21
Speaker 1: with fourteen medals all up, six golds and a whole
0:25
Speaker 1: lot of silvers and bronze. Emma has competed at the
0:28
Speaker 1: Olympics in Rio, Tokyo, Paris, a bunch of Commonwealth Games
0:31
Speaker 1: as well, and she joins me today after retiring from
0:36
Speaker 1: Olympic and competitive swimming, to talk about parenting kids in
0:41
Speaker 1: sports more generally and all things swimming and achievement goal oriented. Emma,
0:48
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with me on the
0:50
Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast.
0:51
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
0:53
Speaker 1: You started swimming at a really young age. What kept
0:56
Speaker 1: you coming back to the pool when so many other
0:58
Speaker 1: kids were dropping out of sport? I mean, we know
1:00
Speaker 1: that there's a precipitous decline in kids staying in sport
1:04
Speaker 1: once they get into their teenage years, but you just
1:06
Speaker 1: kept going even though you'd started young. What kept you
1:09
Speaker 1: coming back?
1:10
Speaker 3: I definitely still had a lot of friends in there,
1:12
Speaker 3: even though there were a lot of friends that were
1:14
Speaker 3: dropping out and I would also stop and start a lot,
1:17
Speaker 3: I wasn't enjoying it, putting too much pressure on myself
1:20
Speaker 3: or that kind of thing. And I think what ended
1:23
Speaker 3: up with me coming back was my parents because they
1:26
Speaker 3: were very relaxed about it all. They never pressured me
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Speaker 3: either way to swim or not to swim, or to
1:32
Speaker 3: achieve or perform or anything. They just wanted me to
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Speaker 3: enjoy what I was doing and be happy in what
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Speaker 3: I was doing, find something I was passionate about. So
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Speaker 3: I think that's what brought me back all the time.
1:42
Speaker 1: This is a really big deal, and I'm so glad
1:44
Speaker 1: that you brought your parents straight into it, because any
1:45
Speaker 1: parent who's listening to this conversation is going to be saying, oh,
1:48
Speaker 1: but I really want my kids to achieve. I want
1:51
Speaker 1: them to set goals. I want them to be not
1:53
Speaker 1: just confident, but I want them to excel somewhere. And
1:56
Speaker 1: as a parent, you sit there on assembly and you
1:58
Speaker 1: watch your kids get the sports stuff the ar or
2:00
Speaker 1: you watch everyone else's kids get it, and you think,
2:02
Speaker 1: what am I doing wrong? Your dad won medals at
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Speaker 1: Commonwealth Games, like he's You've got a really strong swimming
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Speaker 1: pedigree in your family. So many parents struggle with knowing
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Speaker 1: how much to push and when to pull back with
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Speaker 1: their kids, especially when it comes to sport. How did
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Speaker 1: your parents get this balance right? Why did this work
2:23
Speaker 1: for you?
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Speaker 3: I think it was definitely the balance. It was like
2:27
Speaker 3: not pushing me to do a certain thing and not
2:30
Speaker 3: pushing me to achieve a certain level or anything like that.
2:33
Speaker 3: It was purely about enjoyment, especially from that young age,
2:37
Speaker 3: because I think they knew that if there's something that
2:40
Speaker 3: I love and that I enjoy and it's coming from me,
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Speaker 3: then that means the longer that I'll be doing it
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Speaker 3: for and for them, Like they wanted me to learn
2:50
Speaker 3: how to swim from a young age, and then it
2:51
Speaker 3: was all kind of directed by me and they encouraged that.
2:54
Speaker 3: But it's that fine balance. And then also having the
2:57
Speaker 3: balance then allowed me to be self determined and have
3:01
Speaker 3: the self want to set goals and move ahead and
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Speaker 3: things like that.
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Speaker 1: So I'm listening to what you're saying and reading between
3:08
Speaker 1: the lines just a little bit. You're talking about encouragement.
3:12
Speaker 1: You're talking about how they allowed you to make these choices.
3:16
Speaker 1: But if I'm understanding you correctly. That would indicate that
3:19
Speaker 1: there was still involvement. It's not like they said, hey, Emma,
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Speaker 1: to your life, do what you want. It sounds to
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Speaker 1: me like they were involved in conversations with you consistently
3:27
Speaker 1: about what you were doing. What were those conversations like?
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Speaker 1: Because I can imagine, especially again, having a dad who's
3:33
Speaker 1: got this sort of background, I can imagine him watching
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Speaker 1: you go to a race, or showing up to training
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Speaker 1: and seeing you swim in the pool. I mean, he
3:38
Speaker 1: owned a swim school for goodness sakes. I would imagine
3:42
Speaker 1: that it would have been hard for him to not say, hey, Emma,
3:45
Speaker 1: you need to stretch out more with your right arm,
3:48
Speaker 1: or I want you to work on your bilateral breathing.
3:50
Speaker 1: I can imagine him saying, your kick's not quite right.
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Speaker 1: He wants to give you that coaching. Have they tread
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Speaker 1: that line in terms of being involved and being encouraging
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Speaker 1: and yet not going too far, not pushing That's something
4:02
Speaker 1: that so many parents really struggle with.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, my dad was actually my coach, so he
4:08
Speaker 3: was giving me those tips. Yeah, from about I think
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Speaker 3: I started swimming with him and his squad when I
4:16
Speaker 3: was about thirteen, So before that I had other coaches
4:20
Speaker 3: and mini squad coaches and things like that. And then
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Speaker 3: from about thirteen, I think it was thirteen, I moved
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Speaker 3: to my dad's squad and so he was giving me
4:30
Speaker 3: those tips. But for him it was, you know, it
4:32
Speaker 3: was much harder for him than it was for me.
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Speaker 3: To have my dad's my coach, because it was amazing
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Speaker 3: and I'm so lucky that I have my dad who
4:40
Speaker 3: was my coach, and how he managed it all because
4:44
Speaker 3: he balanced the father and coach extremely well, and as
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Speaker 3: soon as we left the pool, he's my dad and
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Speaker 3: at the pool he is also my dad. So yeah,
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Speaker 3: it was very hard for him to balance, I think,
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Speaker 3: but it was more like he knew if there was
5:00
Speaker 3: a goal that I had that I'd set for myself,
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Speaker 3: then he knew, this is what you have to do
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Speaker 3: to get there, and then it's up to me to
5:08
Speaker 3: make that happen, and he'll affixt that. And then my mom,
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Speaker 3: you know, she was a swimmer as well, so she
5:14
Speaker 3: knew all about swimming, and I guess just knew how
5:17
Speaker 3: to I think knew my personality that as soon as
5:20
Speaker 3: I leave the pool, i'm, you know, a normal kid.
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Speaker 1: As a teenager, I grew up swimming. My parents forced
5:28
Speaker 1: me to do it. I just wanted to go surfing,
5:30
Speaker 1: but I swam at a reasonable level. In fact, one
5:32
Speaker 1: of the guys that I competed against went and won
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Speaker 1: an Olympic goal in a relay. But I was the
5:38
Speaker 1: kid who I didn't set goals at all. I had
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Speaker 1: no interest in setting goals. In fact, my only goal
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Speaker 1: was to get to the other end of the pool
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Speaker 1: so I could jump out and go and spend ten
5:48
Speaker 1: minutes in the toilet so I didn't have to swim
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Speaker 1: the laps. You've talked about how you're the one that's
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Speaker 1: setting the goals. Did your parents say, do you have
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Speaker 1: any goals? Did they encourage you to set goals? What
5:58
Speaker 1: was that process? Because clearly, if you've got a vision
6:03
Speaker 1: that you're working towards, that's going to help you to
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Speaker 1: be inspired to keep on pushing. So who was in
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Speaker 1: charge of that goal setting and how much were your
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Speaker 1: parents involved in what you decided?
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Speaker 3: It was mostly set by me. Like from a young age,
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Speaker 3: I wanted to go to the Olympics and be like
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Speaker 3: the people that I was watching race on television, and
6:25
Speaker 3: so then me saying that and my parents, I guess,
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Speaker 3: hearing me say that, then they could just encourage what
6:31
Speaker 3: that was, what that goal was. And when you're young,
6:35
Speaker 3: like that's like the big dream, it's not really like
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Speaker 3: a goal, whereas the goals are those short term type
6:42
Speaker 3: things like I want to make this qualifying time to
6:44
Speaker 3: get to the state championships and things like that. Yeah,
6:49
Speaker 3: it was mostly driven by me and then encouraged by them.
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Speaker 1: So here's the follow up question to that, because my
6:55
Speaker 1: kids will often tell me that they've got a goal.
6:57
Speaker 1: Their goal is to wake up this many days week
7:00
Speaker 1: at such and such a time and go for a run,
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Speaker 1: or go for a swim, or do something that's healthy
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Speaker 1: for them physically. Or they've got an academic goal they
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Speaker 1: want to get a certain grade and a certain subject.
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Speaker 1: And then as a parent, I see them not getting
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Speaker 1: up and not doing the work that's necessary to get
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Speaker 1: the goal. So they expressed the goal, it's their goal,
7:18
Speaker 1: not mine, and now they're not doing the work for it.
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Speaker 1: Did you ever do that? And if so, how did
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Speaker 1: your parents respond? Did they have to say, hey, Emma,
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Speaker 1: you told us that you wanted to do this and
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Speaker 1: now you're not doing the work, Like, do you want
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Speaker 1: it or do you not want it? Or do they
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Speaker 1: just stand back?
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Speaker 2: I do it all the time.
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Speaker 3: Like when I was like, you know, still at school
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Speaker 3: and everything, I would not get out of bed, oh
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Speaker 3: like often to go to training, but it was always
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Speaker 3: like I had to set my alarm and like me
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Speaker 3: and my dad and my brother we were going off
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Speaker 3: to training together a quarter to five in the morning,
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Speaker 3: and if you're not downstairs by ten to five when
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Speaker 3: we're leaving, then that means you're not coming. And then
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Speaker 3: I would get the feeling myself of like guilt that
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Speaker 3: I didn't get up because I know I need to
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Speaker 3: and know I want to achieve these things, and then
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Speaker 3: I'd have to sit in that feeling and then eventually
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Speaker 3: you learn I don't want to have that feeling.
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Speaker 2: So get up and go.
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Speaker 3: But then my dad being like that and that you
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Speaker 3: have to set your alarm and be downstairs at that time,
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Speaker 3: that taught me the self determination and you know you're
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Speaker 3: doing it for you, you're doing it because you want
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Speaker 3: to and this is what you have to do to
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Speaker 3: get what you want, which is like I've carried that
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Speaker 3: through my whole career and will for my whole life.
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Speaker 3: Is like that self discipline and accountability and things like that.
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Speaker 1: You've used the term self determination a couple of times.
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Speaker 1: The theory that all of my parenting work is based
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Speaker 1: on is called self determination theory, and it's a profoundly
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Speaker 1: valuable psychological theory that argues that we will have when
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Speaker 1: we have to be compelled to do something is because
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Speaker 1: we're in an environment where our psychological needs are not
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Speaker 1: being supported. But when we are doing things with a
9:01
Speaker 1: high level of commitment, we're doing those things because how
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Speaker 1: psychological needs are being supported. Those needs are We need
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Speaker 1: to have good relationships with the people with whom we're
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Speaker 1: doing that activity. We need to feel a sense of
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Speaker 1: competence and capability, or at least that we're progressing towards competence. Last,
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Speaker 1: and I think the lynchpin to the whole thing is
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Speaker 1: this thing called autonomy. We have to be doing it
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Speaker 1: because we're choosing it, rather than because it's being forced
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Speaker 1: upon me. As I listen to your story, here's what
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Speaker 1: I'm hearing. I'm hearing Emma McKean, Australia's most decorated Olympian ever,
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Speaker 1: saying I liked the people that I was there with
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Speaker 1: because they were my friends know of my family. I
9:38
Speaker 1: was good at it and knew that I was getting
9:40
Speaker 1: better because I was getting a high quality of instruction
9:43
Speaker 1: and therefore, and I was able to measure my progress
9:45
Speaker 1: and see my improvements and my increase in capability, capacity, competence,
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Speaker 1: and ultimately this came down to me. I was the
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Speaker 1: one who was choosing it. It feels like this is
9:55
Speaker 1: the very core of what your success has been. Being
9:57
Speaker 1: an environment that supports those needs.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, supports the needs and then also supports from the
10:03
Speaker 3: young age. It has to support the enjoyment is the
10:07
Speaker 3: first thing. And then while you are enjoying it, you're
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Speaker 3: learning all these other skills of turning up on time
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Speaker 3: and working hard on your little skills, and you're learning
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Speaker 3: all these other skills that you are then going to
10:19
Speaker 3: need as you get older. But the enjoyment part is
10:21
Speaker 3: the focus.
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Speaker 2: We're getting young, Evan.
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Speaker 1: We often hear about the sacrifices that athletes make up
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Speaker 1: and down the pool, staring at that black line hour
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Speaker 1: after hour after hour, but we rarely hear about the joy.
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Speaker 1: What were some of the most enjoyable aspects of your
10:43
Speaker 1: journey to Olympic glory that parents might want to create
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Speaker 1: for their own children in sport.
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Speaker 3: I mean it's different from when I'm young, when I
10:52
Speaker 3: was young to when I was older. When I was older,
10:54
Speaker 3: it was having the things that I'll always reflect John
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Speaker 3: is having my family in the stands at the Olympics
11:01
Speaker 3: or World Championships and knowing.
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Speaker 2: They're there and you know, they've.
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Speaker 3: Traveled around the world to watch me and share me
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Speaker 3: on and support me, and knowing that whether I do well,
11:10
Speaker 3: whether I don't do well, like they know whether I'm
11:13
Speaker 3: going to be happy or not with my performance, but
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Speaker 3: they're the same no matter what as well. So that's
11:19
Speaker 3: one of the fun and enjoyable and special parts. And
11:23
Speaker 3: then when I was young the fun things that it's
11:26
Speaker 3: a social part, like traveling around two different meats and
11:30
Speaker 3: things with my friends and playing handball and seeing what
11:33
Speaker 3: I can do once I got in for the race,
11:35
Speaker 3: but then got out and I'm you know, being social
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Speaker 3: and hanging out with my friends.
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Speaker 1: Those three words no matter what are particularly meaningful to me.
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Speaker 1: It's something that I emphasize a lot when I'm talking
11:44
Speaker 1: to parents. I just love that, but I also love
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Speaker 1: for that younger element. There's a recurring theme in this conversation.
11:52
Speaker 1: That is, my parents didn't push me, and when I
11:55
Speaker 1: wasn't swimming, I was just being a kid having fun
11:56
Speaker 1: with my friends. Like handball. You go to the meet,
12:00
Speaker 1: you can see everyone and play handball, and oh, yeah,
12:02
Speaker 1: I've got to go and swim those races. That's the
12:04
Speaker 1: feeling that I'm getting from you.
12:06
Speaker 2: Definitely.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what kept me. That's what brought me the
12:09
Speaker 3: enjoyment and kept me going when I was young.
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Speaker 1: Emma, if you look back at your teenage years and
12:14
Speaker 1: you're swimming there, what would you wish for for every
12:18
Speaker 1: young athlete from their coaches and parents? What do you
12:21
Speaker 1: wish that more coaches and parents understood about the children,
12:24
Speaker 1: the adolescents that their coaching or encouraging to to do well.
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Speaker 3: I think it's from that really young age.
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Speaker 2: It's not.
12:33
Speaker 3: Pushing kids too hard, and not in swimming or in
12:37
Speaker 3: other sports, but for swimming as a sport that I know,
12:40
Speaker 3: not making them do kilometers and kilometers of swimming and
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Speaker 3: laps up to lapse, and I don't think that's healthy
12:47
Speaker 3: from a really young age. It's got to be the enjoyment.
12:50
Speaker 3: You've got to find the love for it, because that's
12:51
Speaker 3: what's going to keep you going for longer. It's got
12:54
Speaker 3: to be, like I was saying earlier, the enjoyment and
12:57
Speaker 3: then teaching those small that end up being quite big
13:00
Speaker 3: skills of paying attention to the little details or turning
13:04
Speaker 3: up on time, or working well with your teammates and
13:07
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. But the focus has got to
13:10
Speaker 3: be that enjoyment because kids, well, for me, I know,
13:14
Speaker 3: I hated doing life after life after that when I
13:17
Speaker 3: had to do it. And if I was doing k's
13:19
Speaker 3: and k's when I was young, I would not have
13:21
Speaker 3: made it through anywhere close.
13:22
Speaker 2: To what I have.
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Speaker 1: Well, your family, as we've already identified, has a really
13:28
Speaker 1: rich swimming heritage. How do you think that influenced your
13:31
Speaker 1: relationship with the sport And was there ever a time
13:34
Speaker 1: where you just thought, no, I want to I want
13:36
Speaker 1: to get away from swimming because this is what my
13:38
Speaker 1: family is known for and I don't want to do that. Like,
13:41
Speaker 1: was there ever any resistance for you?
13:44
Speaker 3: There was a little bit, but that kind of came
13:45
Speaker 3: from me, Like I never felt any pressure because my
13:48
Speaker 3: family was in swimming or anything like that to do it.
13:52
Speaker 3: But different times, like I guess I thought that I
13:58
Speaker 3: wanted to kind of get away from a little bit
14:01
Speaker 3: during my teenage years and things. But I think I
14:04
Speaker 3: eventually realized, no, I do love this and it's such
14:07
Speaker 3: a special thing to be able to do with my family.
14:09
Speaker 1: I love that you realize that.
14:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, to me, that's the that's the key. Okay, Emma,
14:16
Speaker 1: do you have the mental capacity for a lightning round?
14:22
Speaker 2: I've just had a coffee, so.
14:25
Speaker 1: Help, I'm so ready for this. You know the deal?
14:28
Speaker 1: A lightning round? First thing that comes into your mind.
14:31
Speaker 1: Very short answers. I mean, if you need to elaborate,
14:33
Speaker 1: you can, but looking for the quick instant response. Question
14:38
Speaker 1: number one. First thing you do when you wake up,
14:40
Speaker 1: make a coffee even before a swim. Yeah, most embarrassing
14:45
Speaker 1: pool deck moment.
14:47
Speaker 3: Maybe diving in and doing butterfly when I meant to
14:50
Speaker 3: do freestyle and then switching over.
14:52
Speaker 1: That would be embarrassing. I apresume they disqualify you for that.
14:55
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you were to swimmer, what sport would you
14:58
Speaker 1: have pursued?
15:00
Speaker 2: Surfing? American?
15:02
Speaker 1: Do you shred?
15:04
Speaker 3: Not? Now? I never did it, actually, but I loved
15:08
Speaker 3: it when I was like around fifteen.
15:10
Speaker 1: Surfing is my sport. Oh, I love it, absolutely love it.
15:14
Speaker 1: Emma mcke and your favorite post race.
15:17
Speaker 2: Meal a burger and chip.
15:19
Speaker 1: So healthy. That's not what I was expecting at all.
15:22
Speaker 1: Most played song on your warm up list some Beyonce.
15:27
Speaker 1: We're a superstition that you've adopted before a race.
15:31
Speaker 3: I don't have any superstitions.
15:33
Speaker 1: With a superstition you've heard about, and you are welcome
15:36
Speaker 1: to name the athlete.
15:37
Speaker 3: I've heard about people not wanting to stand on a
15:41
Speaker 3: crack like in the ground.
15:45
Speaker 1: Wow, because that's going to slow them down that much? Yeah, amazing.
15:49
Speaker 1: What's a better feeling breaking a world record or eating
15:54
Speaker 1: pizza after months of training?
15:57
Speaker 2: Breaking a world record?
15:58
Speaker 1: Definitely, I'm glad you said that. What's the most unusual
16:03
Speaker 1: place that you've done a workout?
16:05
Speaker 3: Maybe a hotel room or I mean during COVID we
16:10
Speaker 3: were working out in all kinds of strange places.
16:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd imagine. What's your go to karaoke song?
16:16
Speaker 2: Maybe it's an adder.
16:18
Speaker 1: Most memorable goggle malfunction moment.
16:21
Speaker 3: Probably when you just dive in and they just come
16:24
Speaker 3: down to your neck, they just put some water.
16:27
Speaker 1: Does that happen often? I mean, there's that legendary story
16:30
Speaker 1: about Michael Phelps goggles filling up with water, but he
16:34
Speaker 1: counted his strokes and still said a world record. Is
16:37
Speaker 1: it a regular thing? I mean, I'm a swimmer, but
16:40
Speaker 1: I never have issues with my goggles.
16:43
Speaker 2: Does it can happen?
16:44
Speaker 3: It can happen, But I like, before I will race
16:47
Speaker 3: or before I'll dive in, I'm pressing them so hard
16:49
Speaker 3: on my face to make sure it doesn't happen.
16:51
Speaker 1: I bet. Yeah, Okay, this is kind of a tricky
16:54
Speaker 1: lightning round question, but I love to ask it. Welcome
16:57
Speaker 1: to take as long as you need to think it through.
16:59
Speaker 1: Best piece of advice that you've ever ignored.
17:05
Speaker 3: After Tokyo, I continued to race. I took a small
17:11
Speaker 3: break and then tried to keep racing again. And probably
17:16
Speaker 3: I needed to come home and not race because I
17:17
Speaker 3: was so mentally drained and burnt out.
17:20
Speaker 2: And I ignored that and stayed over. He's racing.
17:23
Speaker 1: So the advice was take a breather, let your body recover,
17:25
Speaker 1: and you just said.
17:26
Speaker 2: No, and I didn't do that.
17:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, obviously retirement now, but when you were competing,
17:34
Speaker 1: what was the longest you would go without getting in a.
17:36
Speaker 3: Pool after an Olympics. I'd off and take about three
17:41
Speaker 3: to four months off.
17:43
Speaker 1: That's a much bigger gap than I expected.
17:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's but that's only once every four years
17:48
Speaker 3: or five years after chat.
17:51
Speaker 1: If you if you could instantly master any skill outside
17:55
Speaker 1: of swimming, what would that be?
17:56
Speaker 2: Singing?
17:58
Speaker 1: Huh? How do you? How do you really?
18:01
Speaker 2: Yeah?
18:02
Speaker 1: So abbot karaoke is wonderfully terrible, wonderfully entertaining? Is the
18:07
Speaker 1: word terrible? Just delightfully fun? Two questions to go, first
18:12
Speaker 1: gold medal or last gold medal? Which one meant more.
18:16
Speaker 3: The first one because it's something I d job sits
18:19
Speaker 3: I was very little, like five years old, and then
18:23
Speaker 3: in Rio it was on the first night of the
18:25
Speaker 3: swimming standing on top of the podium. It's just such
18:28
Speaker 3: a surreal experience and you don't, like you imagine what
18:33
Speaker 3: it might feel like, but just actually standing there is
18:36
Speaker 3: a whole another, a whole other feeling.
18:39
Speaker 1: Does the feeling of winning gold, setting a world record?
18:44
Speaker 1: Does the feeling diminish over time because you have done
18:47
Speaker 1: it so many times, especially compared to most athletes. Do
18:50
Speaker 1: you kind of get to the point where you're like, yep,
18:52
Speaker 1: expected it, yep, did it? Box ticked? What's next? Or
18:56
Speaker 1: is it one of those things where you really do
18:58
Speaker 1: sit in that moment every time and think, my goodness
19:01
Speaker 1: fastest ever.
19:02
Speaker 3: The feeling is just as surreal and just as special
19:05
Speaker 3: every single time. But I would say there's also that
19:10
Speaker 3: element of Okay, what's next, what more can I do?
19:13
Speaker 3: Which is part of being an athlete or part of
19:15
Speaker 3: my experience at an athlete, always wanting to be better. So
19:19
Speaker 3: that was something I had to like juggle because you
19:21
Speaker 3: need to be able to sit in it and feel
19:23
Speaker 3: proud in all the good feelings.
19:25
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about your early swimming again, because
19:27
Speaker 1: most parents who are listening to this are going to
19:29
Speaker 1: have kids who were twelve and younger or fourteen and
19:31
Speaker 1: younger who were involved in sport, and quite often kids
19:34
Speaker 1: are having high levels of anxiety before they compete in
19:37
Speaker 1: a race, or before they go out and play a
19:39
Speaker 1: big game, or before they sit down and do an exam.
19:41
Speaker 1: You've spoken about experiencing anxiety before races, mostly big races,
19:46
Speaker 1: which makes sense. When you were younger, did you feel
19:49
Speaker 1: that same sort of pressure. Was there anxiety before you
19:53
Speaker 1: swim when you were a twelve year old or a
19:55
Speaker 1: sixteen year old?
19:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely still got nervous while I was young,
20:00
Speaker 3: and that's just because I cared about what I was
20:01
Speaker 3: about to do and didn't know what I might be
20:05
Speaker 3: about to do.
20:06
Speaker 2: And so the.
20:06
Speaker 3: Nerves that are actually were same whether whether I was
20:09
Speaker 3: at a state level meet or through to when I
20:12
Speaker 3: eventually was at in the Olympic. So nerves are nerves
20:15
Speaker 3: and what it is.
20:17
Speaker 1: So if a parents talking to their child and their
20:19
Speaker 1: child's saying, I'm just so nervous and I'm really anxious.
20:21
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can compete or I don't know
20:22
Speaker 1: if I'm going to do any any good, what would
20:25
Speaker 1: you say, Like, how did you develop the mental tools
20:27
Speaker 1: to manage those big moments. What advice would you give
20:29
Speaker 1: to any young athletes who are saying, I'm just I'm
20:31
Speaker 1: facing all this pressure, I don't know if I can
20:33
Speaker 1: do it.
20:33
Speaker 3: I think it's refraining it in your head and seeing
20:36
Speaker 3: the nerves is.
20:37
Speaker 2: A good thing.
20:38
Speaker 3: The nerves are like little doubts of energy that you
20:40
Speaker 3: can use in your race, and nerves are showing you
20:43
Speaker 3: that you care. Nerves are showing you that you're doing
20:46
Speaker 3: something brave and worthwhile, and I think it's reframing it
20:50
Speaker 3: in more of a positive way.
20:52
Speaker 1: There's a psychological strategy called self distancing, and in so
20:56
Speaker 1: many ways you've just described what that is. Okay, more questions, Emma.
21:02
Speaker 1: You've achieved extraordinary success. Everybody knows that. But what I'd
21:06
Speaker 1: like to know is what role failure played in your development?
21:10
Speaker 2: A huge amount.
21:12
Speaker 3: The I think the failure is everyone says it, but
21:16
Speaker 3: it's really true. Is the failure is what has taught
21:19
Speaker 3: me the most. It's taught me how to get back
21:22
Speaker 3: up again. It's taught me how to pay attention to
21:25
Speaker 3: what can I do better next time. It's given me
21:28
Speaker 3: motivation at times, and it's taught me a lot about
21:31
Speaker 3: myself as well. So and like managing managing it and
21:38
Speaker 3: being disappointed because disappoint it's okay to be disappointed when
21:41
Speaker 3: you do fail because you care, and then being able
21:44
Speaker 3: to put it aside and move on forward and try
21:46
Speaker 3: again next time. Missing the London twenty twelve team for Olympics.
21:52
Speaker 3: I missed that one by zero point one of a second.
21:56
Speaker 2: So that was.
22:00
Speaker 3: Definitely a big factor in my career because I think
22:05
Speaker 3: had I made that team, the story would been very
22:07
Speaker 3: different to what it is now.
22:09
Speaker 2: But I missed that team.
22:11
Speaker 3: I ended up stopping swimming I didn't want to wait
22:13
Speaker 3: another four years to go to the Olympics all that
22:16
Speaker 3: kind of thing. And then eventually learned from lessons I
22:19
Speaker 3: had to learn, and then came back into the sport,
22:21
Speaker 3: into the sport, and you know, I had to learn
22:23
Speaker 3: about that. I had to pay more attention to the
22:26
Speaker 3: small things. I had to be turning up every session,
22:28
Speaker 3: and like when I was there, I would always work hard,
22:31
Speaker 3: but I had to turn up more often. And then
22:34
Speaker 3: I had to also learn how to deal with the
22:36
Speaker 3: pressure I was putting on myself as well.
22:38
Speaker 1: And there are a lot of parents worry about the children
22:40
Speaker 1: becoming two one dimensional in pursuit of their sporting excellence.
22:43
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the parents pushing them. Other times, Oh it's
22:45
Speaker 1: kids that are really really focused themselves. What did you
22:49
Speaker 1: do to maintain balance while you're pursuing those goals.
22:51
Speaker 3: All through teenage years, I was doing a bit of everything,
22:54
Speaker 3: Like I was setting big goals, and those big goals
22:58
Speaker 3: at that time was you know, qualifying for meat or
23:01
Speaker 3: doing a PB or things like that in swimming. But
23:03
Speaker 3: I was doing a bit of everything. I was doing basketball, dancing,
23:08
Speaker 3: whatever I wanted to try, Like I was doing piano,
23:11
Speaker 3: so there was that balance across a lot of activities.
23:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much research that says don't concentrate on
23:18
Speaker 1: one thing too hard, too soon. Just do stuff, experience
23:22
Speaker 1: a range of activity, breadth of activity, and then as
23:25
Speaker 1: you get older, zero internet and everything you've said seems
23:28
Speaker 1: to point in that direction. My final question if there
23:30
Speaker 1: is a parent who really wants their child to succeed
23:32
Speaker 1: and their child does not seem to have the get
23:35
Speaker 1: up and go that and Emma McKean clearly demonstrated with
23:38
Speaker 1: that wonderful self determining approach to life and specifically to
23:43
Speaker 1: your sport, what would you say to that parent.
23:47
Speaker 3: I think once you've told the kid that to get
23:53
Speaker 3: somewhere you have to work hard at it, once the
23:56
Speaker 3: kid knows that they have to learn that for themselves.
23:59
Speaker 2: But also so maybe.
24:00
Speaker 3: They haven't found the thing that they're passionate about to
24:03
Speaker 3: make them want to get up and go.
24:05
Speaker 1: Yet make it about the child rather than about you.
24:09
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:10
Speaker 1: Evan mckairn really appreciate your generosity in chatting with me.
24:13
Speaker 2: Thank you, all right, thank you, it's good chat.
24:15
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