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Money, Mission, and Ministry: Grace Pomroy on Church Sustainability · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
0:49
Grace Duddy Pomeroy. Grace is the
0:52
director of the Stewardship Leaders Program at
0:55
Luther Seminary. She's a lay
0:58
millennial stewardship leader, speaker, and financial
1:01
educator based in Allen Washing.
1:04
She is the co author of the stewardship book,
1:07
Embracing how to put stewardship at,
1:09
uh, the heart of your congregation's life, as
1:12
well as author of the free 2013
1:16
ELCA Stewardship Resource, stewards
1:19
of God's Love. Her latest book,
1:22
Funding A Pathway to more
1:24
sustainable models for Ministry, was just
1:27
released September 2024.
1:30
Grace is also a consultant with
1:33
Relevant, a, uh, charitable organization
1:35
that lovingly preserves, restores, and
1:38
repurposes underutilized churches
1:41
into community hubs and affordable housing.
1:44
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:48
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review, and share Future Christian with
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mediapro.com with
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comments, questions, or ideas for future
2:07
episodes. We appreciate your voice
2:10
in how we faithfully discern the future of
2:13
the church.
2:22
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren
2:25
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today
2:27
Grace Study Pomeroy. Uh, hello and welcome to the
2:30
show.
2:31
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Thanks so much for having me, Loren. It's great to be here.
2:34
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation. Is there anything
2:37
else you want listeners to know about you?
2:39
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: No, I feel like the bio is enough. I really like to let my
2:42
work speak for itself.
2:44
>> Loren: Well, tell me this, I guess since we even discussed it, what part of the
2:47
country are you coming from today?
2:49
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah, that's often where people get a bit confused because I work
2:52
remotely for a couple different organizations in different parts of the
2:55
country. So I live out on the Olympic Peninsula in
2:58
Washington. So I'm near Olympic national park, about an hour
3:01
away in a tiny little town called
3:03
Allen, Washington, right on Puget Sound.
3:06
Um, and it's so small that I think sometimes we
3:09
begin to wonder, especially here in the springtime, if there are more
3:12
seals than people living in this area.
3:15
>> Loren: Wow. That's great. That's great. Well,
3:18
uh, glad for great Internet, I guess, then.
3:20
Right?
3:21
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Absolutely.
3:24
>> Loren: Well, uh, share, if you would, kind of about your faith journey, what
3:27
that looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
3:30
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah. I was so excited to answer this question with you because
3:33
I've had, um, a bit of a mixed faith journey. Been
3:35
a part of a variety of different denominations. I grew up in the
3:38
Assemblies of God and really valued, uh, the
3:41
Pentecostal tradition. Um, but coming of age,
3:44
began to have a lot of questions. And in the church that
3:47
I was a part of, there were some adult lay leaders
3:50
that when I came to them with some of these questions about
3:53
the faith and particularly about the Bible, because I'd always been so
3:56
interested in the text, uh, they told me that it
3:59
wasn't right for me to ask those questions.
4:01
Um, and just getting that door slammed in my face
4:04
as someone who was intellectually curious, um,
4:07
was really hard for me, especially because this congregation
4:10
had really lifted me up as a leader from a
4:13
young age, inviting me to pray, inviting me to give
4:16
sermons even when I was a youth. And so having
4:19
this door slammed in my face caused me to ask a lot of questions.
4:22
Um, and I actually ended up in the Lutheran Church because I went to
4:25
St. Olaf College. Um, I went there because
4:28
I saw that they were interested in
4:31
intellectual pursuits about religion. Uh, they also had a
4:33
great music program. I had been singing in a choir. And so I went
4:36
over there and I promised and vowed that I would never become a
4:39
Lutheran. That's what I told all of my friends in college. That would
4:42
never, ever happen. But what I found,
4:45
uh, through generous relationships and through working at a
4:48
Bible camp, was that that tradition
4:51
allowed me to ask questions, um, that I was
4:53
allowed to sit in the question as long as I wanted to. And in
4:56
fact, we encouraged others, and particularly campers that
4:59
I was working with, to really dive into those questions
5:02
together, um, not to look for the easy answers.
5:05
Lutherans are a both and people. And that really
5:08
appealed to me. And so over the course of about,
5:11
I don't know, nearly a decade, kind of began
5:14
to befriend and then slowly kind of become a part of the
5:17
Lutheran Church. But that was through many different
5:19
other denominations to get there. So I'm very grateful
5:22
for the rich gift of different denominational
5:25
experiences, Baptist Church and others that really
5:28
led me to the place I am today, um, and
5:31
grateful to hang out with Lutherans while That's available to
5:34
me.
5:35
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for sharing all that.
5:37
What has been a spiritual practice that's been meaningful for you and,
5:40
you know, if you're willing to share, is there anything that you
5:43
remember from your youth in the semblance of God
5:46
that still is meaningful for you, perhaps?
5:48
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Oh, yes. For me, Bible reading has
5:51
always been the most meaningful spiritual practice.
5:54
Um, in my youth I was very into it. I was
5:56
committed to reading three chapters of the Bible every single
5:59
day. And I was extremely regimented about
6:02
it. Um, I would feel very guilty if I
6:05
ever missed. Um, one of the beautiful things in my
6:08
coming of age and adult experience of the faith has been just
6:11
to hold that a bit more loosely, to know that
6:14
sometimes when you're reading scripture in the morning, one
6:16
verse is enough to dwell in. Sometimes
6:19
you need a full passage, sometimes you need three chapters. It really
6:22
depends on where you are. Um, and giving myself permission
6:25
and freedom to enjoy the text for what it is.
6:28
Lately I've been reading the Bible in the message
6:31
paraphrase, um, because I found when I read it in
6:34
the niv, I heard scripture, uh,
6:37
and sermons from my past. When I read it in the
6:39
nrsv, I heard my seminary professors in
6:42
my head and I wanted to just listen to
6:45
the text. Um, so reading Eugene Peterson's
6:48
message paraphrase has allowed me to see it in new ways and
6:51
even to read passages I've known for so long and not
6:53
even recognize them because the language is so different. That
6:56
actually happened to me earlier this week. And one thing I've
6:59
kind of paired with that over time is also reading
7:02
poetry. So during seminary I found
7:04
reading the Bible felt too much like schoolwork.
7:07
Um, and so going into reading different, ah,
7:10
poetry, particularly about nature and God's role
7:13
in nature, was so beneficial to me. And now
7:16
I'm finding myself reading the Bible and
7:19
reading some poems from some unhoused women. I recently
7:21
received a book of poetry from unhoused women.
7:24
Alongside that, just, um, this beautiful
7:27
reminder not only to love God, but also to love
7:30
neighbor. Um, has really created a beautiful
7:32
spiritual practice for me.
7:34
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. It's funny you mentioned that thing about the, uh,
7:37
reading and different translations. Something I can relate to
7:39
having grown up Baptist and the strong
7:43
affiliation with the King James Version, you know, similarly
7:46
recognized, like hearing.
7:50
For me, it's not necessarily hearing the sermons, but I go back
7:53
to that kind of interpretive framework of,
7:56
of like how I would have interpreted
7:58
scripture when I was reading King James
8:01
primarily. So it's interesting how, how
8:04
those things shape our minds.
8:07
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: For sure.
8:08
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
8:09
Well, we're here to talk today, uh, about Grace's
8:12
book funding A Pathway to
8:15
More Sustainable Models for Ministry.
8:17
And I was really intrigued, uh, when I came across this book
8:20
and excited to talk about it because I think this is such an important
8:25
conversation for churches today, especially as we think
8:27
about the. As I people. Church, uh,
8:30
does not seem to be a growth industry.
8:35
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: I love that phrase in many ways.
8:38
>> Loren: Uh, I was just at a church in the Midwest this week.
8:41
Very old historic church, beautiful building,
8:45
huge historic campus. Uh,
8:47
but obviously I don't think in any way. And I,
8:50
I just did some research on them, looking at their pledges. There's no
8:53
way in the world their pledges could support or
8:56
sustain the building. Uh, but thankfully they had
9:00
several, several different
9:03
community organizations and some denominational groups using the
9:06
building that I imagine has greatly
9:08
contributed to their sustainability and
9:11
continued ministry. And thank goodness, because
9:14
I'm, as my friends know, I'm someone who loves
9:16
beautiful church buildings. And there's a Presbyterian church just
9:19
down the street, even more grand and historic and
9:22
beautiful, at least from the outside, if I can say that,
9:25
uh, that had closed, I think, and is likely to, I
9:28
think turn into luxury condos, which to me is a crime. But,
9:31
uh, that's another conversation. So I think these conversations are
9:34
essential, uh, about how to make churches and
9:37
church ministry more sustainable.
9:39
So, uh, I imagine you had a similar kind of like,
9:42
oh my goodness, like, tell what, what
9:45
was your kind of moment of like, I need to put this on paper.
9:49
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Sure. So I, I actually came to
9:52
this process from the people side and less from the building
9:55
side. And the building piece has been coming to me slowly over
9:58
time. I share at the beginning of the book a, um, really
10:01
impactful moment for me in my own ministry
10:04
journey. I was actually teaching
10:06
pre retirement seminars, uh, to pastors.
10:10
And in one of these particular seminars there was
10:13
a gentleman who came with his father because his father mainly
10:16
spoke Spanish. So he was translating the entire pre
10:18
retirement seminar. In and of itself. He should have been paid
10:21
way more than me for that day because he was doing the real work.
10:24
But needless to say, as I got into conversation
10:27
with this person, um, I realized that
10:30
he was a first call pastor. So he was
10:33
in his very first job, uh, out of seminary.
10:36
And he had been put into a really interesting
10:38
situation. He was struggling to find
10:41
a call and was kind of getting a bit desperate.
10:44
And when one congregation contacted him,
10:47
uh, they said, great, you know, we'd really love for you to be here,
10:50
but we really need you to work 3/4 time.
10:53
But in reality what we mean by 3/4 time is actually
10:56
full time at a 3/4 salary. And he was so
10:59
desperate to take this call and I, I feel for
11:02
him because I know what that desperation feels like.
11:05
Um, um. And so he jumped right in and by the time I met him,
11:08
he was a couple months in and I could already see the
11:11
burnout even after a couple of months.
11:14
And I began to wonder, is there a way we
11:17
can do this work that doesn't put
11:19
all of the financial pressure onto the
11:22
shoulders of the ministry leaders who are serving that community?
11:25
Is there a different financial model that
11:28
paths that creates a pathway forward
11:31
for us that does not
11:34
include that type of pressure, not only for the ministry leaders but
11:37
also for the community itself? Um, and the more
11:40
I've been digging into this more work, the more critique I
11:43
have of our current financial system
11:46
in the church and how much pressure that puts on
11:49
individuals, uh, to be the only thing holding
11:52
up their church's budget.
11:53
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Um, there's been, and
11:56
I imagine you've come across much of this,
11:59
it's bigger conversation that we probably don't have time for today
12:02
about, you know, institutionalism and
12:05
the volunteer society and how our
12:08
institutions are structured. But I think this is an important
12:11
part of that conversation. And
12:14
what I appreciated most, I think about when I
12:16
read your book is that it really
12:20
was, at least as I read it, uh,
12:23
you really made a strong attempt to build a
12:26
spiritual, theological, philosophical foundation
12:29
about why this is important in
12:32
some basic, again, foundational points.
12:36
Um, and I think one of the things that pleasantly surprised me, I'll
12:39
say most, and I don't want to discount,
12:43
I don't want to discount like sometimes we just need a real
12:46
practical, like how do we start this? But I think
12:49
in this space it's really important to
12:51
build a spiritual theological foundation
12:54
because I'm sure you've seen it as much as
12:57
I have, like the cart can be, get in front of the horse
13:01
and if we are not careful, like
13:04
the work of the church
13:07
can just be purely economic based, like
13:10
we're existing just to like make money or
13:13
whatever. And uh, I don't think that's what you
13:16
want. So you say in the book that spiritual practices, when you
13:19
surveyed pastors and other leaders doing this work, you
13:22
were surprised. Surprised. If I remember correctly, you were surprised to read that
13:25
spiritual practices were the most
13:27
commonly, uh, referenced things
13:30
as, as part of the, the process of enter.
13:33
Undergoing more,
13:35
um,
13:38
more. Excuse me, exploring more uh,
13:40
untraditional financing models. So talk, talk more about that if you
13:43
would.
13:44
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Absolutely. I am so grateful that you asked about this, because
13:46
I do think whenever I talk about this, people want to dive
13:49
right into the practical right away. And when you do that, you miss
13:52
the entire point. I am not
13:55
interested in financial practices just
13:58
to save the institution of church. I have zero interest in
14:01
that conversation. If we were going to have a conversation about
14:04
how to add an extra 5 to 10% to your budget just to
14:07
add an extra 5 to 10%, we'd be having a, ah, very
14:10
different, uh, conversation today. And we'd be
14:13
looking at very different income sources. And I don't think
14:16
that conversation is faithful because what
14:19
God calls us to do is not to maintain an
14:21
institution or to maintain a building, just to maintain a building.
14:25
God calls us to love God and love neighbor, to
14:28
make disciples of all nations. And how we
14:31
do that is different in every single place. And
14:34
so it was fascinating to me because I, I came into this
14:37
research project. Um, I'm a math major, I'm a
14:39
finance gal. You know, I was looking for the practical
14:42
details. And even though I am a person of
14:45
faith with a spiritual life, I have to admit I had that
14:48
practical lens going. That's where my antenna was
14:50
focused. And again and again
14:53
and again and again, the Spirit
14:56
reminded me, this work is not about
14:59
that. Uh, and if you want to
15:02
be in creating a sustainable model for the
15:05
long term, there are spiritual
15:07
practices that are necessary to this work because the
15:10
mission matters so much more than the money.
15:13
And we've now seen that from, uh, a research lens
15:16
that the entire congregation needs to be on
15:19
board with the mission and how you're going to live that
15:21
out. But the details of where the money comes from
15:24
and all of the financial knits and gats, those can be handled
15:27
by another group of people. They're vitally important to this process,
15:30
but they're ancillary. So what we found is that
15:33
spiritual practices, including just really small
15:36
ones, were vital. So an example of this, one of the
15:38
congregations we studied, the Emory fellowship in Washington,
15:41
D.C. i mean, a congregation that is rich
15:44
with deep spiritual practices. If you want to see
15:47
an exceptional mission and vision statement, please
15:50
Google the Emory Fellowship. It's one of the best I've ever seen.
15:53
Uh, their mission, to bring a whole life to all people.
15:57
They decided to take on a project and really
15:59
discerned that this was a call from God, from them, to take
16:02
on a project of building affordable housing. And as Pastor
16:05
Joe Daniels would say, if you're building in Washington, D.C. expect
16:08
it to take a long time. If you can build in Washington D.C. you can build
16:11
anywhere. It took 11 years to complete.
16:14
It was a twisting journey winding all the way through.
16:18
But one of the practices they used that's so
16:20
practical and beautiful is that they
16:23
invited people to pray every single day for
16:26
this project, twice a day at 6, 6:10am
16:29
and 6:10pm so people would set their alarms every
16:31
day to pray for this. And it kept them
16:34
going through the journey, through the times when things seemed to be
16:37
moving forward, through the times when things seemed to be tough.
16:40
And this is a group of working class people in this
16:43
congregation. They do not have a lot of time to invest in
16:46
long winded spiritual practices. And they
16:49
pointed to us again and again that this is one of the things that
16:51
really kept them going. You could imagine their evening
16:54
meetings at church where everybody's alarm goes off and they would all
16:57
pray together. But honestly, for years
17:00
this was an important practice for them. And of course we saw
17:03
some other practices. People really diving into
17:06
their own money stories as they dug into the money
17:09
story of their congregation. Uh, people spending
17:12
time, uh, doing work around how to love their neighbor and
17:15
really listen to their neighbor. The spiritual practices
17:18
were vast. And I really
17:21
uh, followed what I believe was the lens of the Spirit to
17:24
say if this feels like a spiritual practice to this congregation, even
17:26
if you and I might not define it that way, we're going to define it that way from
17:29
a research, purpose and perspective.
17:32
>> Loren: Yeah, that's helpful. Uh, it goes back
17:35
to something I feel like I'm seeing again and again as essential
17:38
in at least American
17:41
Christian society, that these
17:44
efforts have to be undergirded by
17:47
a, uh, rich spiritual depth or
17:50
else. Like you said, 11 years. My goodness,
17:53
I'm remembering a story here in my own neck of
17:56
the woods where
17:58
similarly a, uh, building was built. And it
18:01
took some 20 years of somebody
18:04
walking around this property, praying and praying and praying
18:07
and praying. And today there's a beautiful
18:10
building that has some 60, 70
18:13
low income housing units with more
18:16
on the way. Uh, and again,
18:19
if we were looking for quick fixes and instant
18:21
results, would never have happened without some
18:25
discipled, disciplined,
18:27
dedicated. What else do you can I use there?
18:30
Commitment, uh, to saying through it
18:35
it's so important. That's a great story. Yeah, yeah.
18:38
So you kind of stole my next
18:41
question there because I was asking about mission mattering more than money. I'm
18:44
curious, like, have you seen the opposite where,
18:47
what are some examples of where churches chased money,
18:51
you know, and they found that it really didn't align with their mission?
18:55
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Oh, That's a great question. I don't know that anybody's asked me that
18:57
before, so I might need a second to think of some good
19:00
examples, but just to kind of, uh, go
19:03
off a bit on that topic, uh, I will
19:06
say some of my favorite folks in congregations are
19:09
the church treasurer, the church finance chair.
19:12
And sometimes good, faithful
19:14
people can fall into this trap where money
19:17
matters more. And often this comes
19:20
from a historical bias. For
19:23
so long in our Christian traditions, keeping the doors
19:26
open, and if you build it, they will come.
19:28
Theology was the way that we
19:31
evangelized. So in many ways, as much as
19:34
we want to critique that ideology, theology,
19:36
philosophy, I think we need to take the time to
19:39
realize where it comes from and to help people begin
19:42
to undo some of those ideas from the past about
19:45
it. I think where I see this come up,
19:48
um, poorly around money, I think about an
19:51
example I heard of recently of a
19:53
congregation that decided. I don't know if they
19:56
closed, but they definitely decided to sell their building. And they
19:59
decided to sell it to the highest bidder. They didn't
20:02
care what it was going to be used for, and really
20:04
focused on chasing the money in that situation. Now,
20:07
in their case, um, to be fair, they did decide
20:10
that much of the proceeds of that sale would be given away.
20:14
But what I'm more curious about is how do we actually
20:17
make sure the mission is aligned throughout the process.
20:20
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
20:21
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Because you could have still sold the building
20:25
in a missional way, made some money, been able to give it away,
20:28
maybe not as much, but did you really need
20:31
to have that much money stored up to give away?
20:33
And what type of legacy are you leaving, given that you
20:36
sold this to the highest bidder? Uh, now, there are some
20:39
communities where you may make a lot of money, and it may make
20:42
sense to go with that highest bidder. And there's a missional connection.
20:45
But I think the biggest issue for congregations that I see
20:48
is we don't know what our mission is. And when we don't know what our
20:51
mission is, when we haven't spent the time and discernment, which is
20:54
so hard, but it's
20:57
so necessary, then we're never gonna be able to make these
21:00
decisions. Cause if we're not clear on our mission, we can't make
21:03
these choices that need to be made.
21:05
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Uh, how did.
21:08
Then when we're thinking about cause again,
21:11
there's not always that even clear differentiation between,
21:14
you know, is this feeding mission, is this feeding just
21:17
purely the bottom line? Sometimes practical
21:19
decisions need to be made about
21:22
to sustain our mission, we might need to
21:25
pursue money. How do you help
21:28
congregations or how do you advise congregations and leaders to find that
21:31
kind of sweet spot? I'm thinking, I'm sure
21:34
you've, you've worked or encountered Mark Elzin.
21:37
You have.
21:38
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: I remember they, yeah, they have that.
21:39
>> Loren: Kind of helpful chart in their book or his book
21:42
of. I think it's in one of his books. Right. About
21:45
the.
21:46
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah, he's got it in a couple different places. His money and m Mission matrix
21:49
is one of my favorite, uh, resources to use with people.
21:52
It is brilliant. Um, but it's also very
21:55
simple. So I hope I can explain it in a way that makes sense to
21:58
the podcast viewers, which is that essentially if you think of a
22:00
table, you've got money on one side, you've got
22:03
mission on another. And what Mark would say, which I think
22:06
is so vital, is our goal
22:10
is not always to have,
22:12
um, the money making piece come first. Because that's what I
22:15
think. When people initially read Mark's work, when they initially read my
22:18
work and other work on this topic, they think we're only looking for money
22:21
making pieces. But in reality, our goal is to
22:24
find ways to connect with the mission. Some that cost
22:27
money, there will always be pieces of our ministry that cost
22:30
money. That's not a bad thing. Some that break
22:32
even. That's wonderful. And we need to find
22:35
more of those opportunities and then some that
22:38
also generate income. And our goal is to really hang out
22:41
across that line. Where things can get sticky
22:44
is on the things that are missionally neutral. And
22:47
what Mark would say is, even if it feels like a big money
22:50
generator, take the time. Because a lot of
22:53
things that congregations think immediately are mission neutral,
22:55
often aren't. They either can be really
22:58
missionally related if you take the extra step,
23:01
or there's some things behind it that make it not
23:04
missionally related. And if you're saying, well, that
23:06
feels like it could be different for every place,
23:09
you're absolutely right. You're absolutely
23:12
right. Which is so vitally important that we remember
23:15
that there's not one way forward. Which is why I get a little
23:17
frustrated sometimes when affordable housing is the immediate thing
23:20
thrown out to every single congregation. It is a vital
23:23
need in our church and world today. Love it. But
23:26
that's not the right opportunity for every place.
23:28
>> Loren: Right? Yeah, that's a good point. And
23:31
it speaks to the importance, as you
23:34
say, I think again and again in the book of listening and
23:37
discernment. I'm reminded too, I can't remember the
23:39
quote. Perhaps you can tell me who said this. It's
23:43
somebody famous. And I'm kicking myself that I can't remember who it is.
23:46
But,
23:47
um, I think it was like a
23:49
covey who was like, there cannot be mission without
23:52
margin. And I feel like
23:55
that's something churches don't really
23:58
get.
23:59
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: No. Uh, and yet Covid taught us that.
24:02
Covid taught us that. I mean, so many
24:04
congregations learned through Covid
24:07
that if you don't have any type of margin, it's
24:10
going to be challenging. And I really would
24:13
encourage congregations to consider that. I've heard
24:16
seen a lot of churches begin to put together a sort of emergency
24:19
fund, whether that's in the form of an endowment that you could
24:22
grab from if you needed to, and you need to make sure your endowment
24:25
restrictions allow you to do that. Don't just make that up.
24:28
Um, or having some savings that are set aside is so,
24:31
so vital. And especially in a season of ministry where you're
24:34
pursuing new income sources, it is very rare
24:37
that that transition happens quickly. So you need to give
24:40
yourself the bandwidth. Uh, think about it like starting
24:43
a new business. You know, that you would need to have some money set
24:45
aside to, uh, help fund you as that business came up to speed.
24:48
And it's the same as we're switching to a new model of ministry
24:51
with our finances.
24:53
>> Loren: Yeah. And again, I, I guess again, I'm going to keep beating this
24:56
drum, because I think you do. In the book, listening and discernment is so
24:59
essential because if not, we're just either chasing after money.
25:01
Right. Or we're going to get into something that's not.
25:05
It is, again, as Elson would say, is like
25:07
anti. It's against our mission.
25:09
And that's, uh, that's the worst for sure.
25:11
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: It really is. And I think I see too many congregations trying to
25:14
copy and paste.
25:15
>> Loren: Right.
25:16
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: They really love the ideas of what other people are doing in your
25:19
community, but you don't need. Need 10
25:21
food pantries on the same block. They just
25:24
don't. I mean, unless your community really does need that, in which case, please
25:27
pursue it. But, like, ultimately likely not the case.
25:31
And I think we were looking for quick fixes
25:34
rather than doing the scary work. It is really
25:36
scary to go out and talk to neighbors. I get
25:39
that it can feel really daunting to sit
25:42
and discern mission and not have any idea what God
25:45
is going to say to you about what God wants to do next with your congregation
25:48
and know that it may go in a different direction than you could imagine.
25:51
That faithful risk taking is so
25:54
important. Um, and these simple
25:57
practices which we try to include in the book of Dwelling in the
26:00
Word as a community, of going on prayer walks
26:03
in your community. I try to include specific questions that you can
26:05
ask to neighbors so that you know what to say. There's kind
26:08
of a script prepared for you and there's certainly a lot of great
26:11
resources out there outside of my book on that
26:14
topic. Um, but I would encourage you,
26:17
don't try to shortcut it. And if you are the church
26:19
treasurer type that's listening to this, awesome, love that
26:22
for you, this can be your moment
26:25
to introduce that part of the conversation. Maybe you're not the
26:28
one who leads it, but the fact that you've brought it up, people
26:31
are going to listen because they don't expect that from you.
26:33
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. And again, we'll
26:36
keep repeating this too, like you're a math person.
26:39
You're not someone who's just going to pretend
26:42
numbers don't matter.
26:43
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Not at all.
26:44
>> Loren: You know, so she's a math person, folks. Uh, she
26:47
understands the importance of, uh,
26:51
keeping records and understanding true cost. So
26:54
let's start to transition this a little bit to the practical.
26:57
But I think this kind of question or
27:00
topic really gets to that because it's an important step
27:02
of how do we, how do you, how have you
27:05
seen churches, have you coached
27:08
churches to grieve the past to
27:12
and celebrate while also making space for the new? Because I
27:15
think what can always happen is, and I think you
27:18
say this in the book, right? We can see the past,
27:20
we can label the past as bad or some effort in the past
27:23
is bad and think, well, these new efforts, this is the
27:26
good, uh, which again really is going to rub some
27:29
folks the wrong way if they've been in the church a long time. I
27:32
think I've made that mistake at some point in my career.
27:34
Uh, what have you seen do. Do well there?
27:38
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Oh, I'm so glad you brought this up. This has been
27:41
my absolute favorite, most life giving part of
27:44
this work. As I've been working with the book, now that it's been
27:46
published with different groups, this
27:49
is so necessary. And the great news
27:52
is for most pastors, this is right in your wheelhouse.
27:55
Yeah, this is right in the sweet spot of your wheelhouse.
27:58
So one of the things that I like to do with congregations around
28:01
this, if you'll permit some examples, is I really
28:04
like to dwell in a text that most
28:06
congregation members probably have known ever seen or if they
28:09
have seen it. It's been a while I really like to dwell
28:12
in Ezra 3. Um, this is a
28:15
passage that one of my colleagues at Luther Seminary, who's one of our Old
28:18
Testament professors, Cameron Howard, brought up to, uh, us
28:21
around lessons in innovation. And one of
28:24
the beautiful things here is you see this temple
28:27
being rebuilt and you hear the
28:29
weeping for joy and the weeping
28:32
for the past all happening at the same time.
28:35
And what I like to imagine is that there are some
28:38
people who are doing both.
28:40
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:41
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: So what I often remind congregations is you don't have
28:43
to finish your grieving process before the hope can begin.
28:48
Huh? We have permission to feel both feelings at the
28:50
same time and to change in the middle of a meeting
28:53
how we feel. That's totally okay. We can go back
28:56
and forth. And one of the activities I like to use is one
28:59
that faith lead has developed around longings and losses.
29:02
So encouraging people to spend some
29:05
time lamenting things from the past that they have lost.
29:08
But one of the most important questions in it that I really,
29:12
really love is I think, question number three and the four
29:15
questions, which is, what is something from the
29:18
past that was good, good
29:21
that you might need to let go of to create space for the
29:24
new future? Uh, and this
29:27
is where I have found the most powerful moments happen.
29:30
I still remember a group that I was working with in Washington last
29:33
year where we did this activity. I invited everyone to write
29:36
it on a post it note. And then everybody
29:38
lifted them up. Sounds a bit cheesy, but go with me. And we
29:41
said a prayer over them. We gave thanks
29:44
to God for these amazing, beautiful things,
29:47
for these Bible studies, these spaces in
29:50
our congregation that had been so important to
29:53
us and been such a source of spiritual growth,
29:56
while also saying, we're gonna let these go for
29:59
a time and we're creating space
30:02
for what's to come. Because if we have too much on our plate,
30:05
there's no space, um, for the growth.
30:08
Um, and it doesn't mean we're letting go of good for the
30:11
better. It just means we're letting go for.
30:13
Of what was good to create what's good in
30:16
this season. And both things can still be good. We can
30:19
celebrate those things of the past without letting them rule over
30:22
us.
30:23
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a great, that's a great point. So
30:26
often I, um, think
30:29
of church spaces so often as being. Whether
30:32
it's a church space or something tangible,
30:34
tactile, can so
30:37
often be. Have great memories and important
30:41
m. Memories, important ministry attached to those.
30:44
Uh, and it's real hard for someone
30:47
who's, who made a
30:50
donation or whose parent was involved
30:53
to just. And I think it's so important for the
30:56
grieving process. Uh, and I
30:59
guess we could say otherwise, like, in so many instances, like a
31:02
building just getting sold and demolished. Like, that's not good for,
31:05
um. That's not good for memories either. So this is a more
31:07
perhaps faithful way and a meaningful way.
31:12
I want to jump to your. What you call
31:14
your rocket ship model, because I think this is really
31:18
applicable here. So in the
31:20
latter end of the book, you kind of talk about
31:24
six practices that came up most
31:26
consistently in your interviews. And if it's okay, I'll
31:29
just read them here.
31:32
Um, you talk about openness to change, generosity,
31:35
focus on mission, lay leadership, pastoral
31:38
leadership, and, uh, partnerships or
31:41
community relationships. And as you lay these out and kind of
31:44
quantify the data, you know that, interestingly enough,
31:47
it kind of looks like a rocket ship. And again, as I understand,
31:49
like, you make the point that with these
31:52
principles in place, you can really become.
31:55
Your idea can take off. Uh, so talk more just about
31:58
how you've seen this kind of take
32:01
off and grow for congregations.
32:05
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Absolutely. So in my experience, when I
32:07
was working with congregations around this, prior to the research project,
32:11
this is where they got stuck. Ideation is never
32:13
an issue for most congregations that I talk to. They've got
32:16
tons of ideas, not always grounded in the community, but
32:19
they've got tons of ideas, which is beautiful and
32:22
faithful and lovely. Let's live into it.
32:25
But once those ideas begin to become a part of the
32:28
broader conversation, once we start putting them into action, once
32:31
we start hitting some roadblocks, that's where people were getting
32:33
stuck.
32:34
And so we wanted to talk to 12 congregations who
32:37
had done this work successfully. Again, I'm using that
32:40
term loosely, um, and they would agree that that's a
32:43
loose term, but successfully from a missional and financial
32:45
perspective, to see what they learned. And we were so
32:48
excited to see the practices that came up. I
32:51
was most excited to see that partnerships and community relationships
32:54
was the foundation of this work. Churches often
32:57
assume that they have to do this work by
32:59
themselves.
33:00
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:01
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: And in my experience, um, I am not a
33:03
psychologist or a counselor, but I would say a lot of this comes
33:06
from a feeling of failure on the church's part.
33:09
They think it's an issue that they need to fix before no one else
33:12
notices. Um, and it's
33:15
so challenging when we. When we stay inside of
33:18
our enclave. And it's really not something we're
33:21
able to do if we just stay inside of our own space. And
33:24
it's Funny to me, so many congregations, when I have this
33:27
conversation in a kind of a senate or a denominational
33:30
setting, it's amazing to me how many congregations right down the
33:33
street from one another don't realize that they're engaging in the
33:36
same conversation because there's so much shame and embarrassment.
33:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:39
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: So I encourage these partnerships and community relationships. And in
33:42
our experience, um, these partners came from really
33:44
unexpected places. I think about one of our
33:47
congregations we studied in Fort Worth, Texas, where
33:50
the landlord was a key partner, and this landlord was not
33:53
a person of faith, but this landlord actually
33:55
decided to give some
33:58
additional rental space to this congregation, who was already renting
34:01
space from them for free because of the
34:04
particular piece that they were doing. And I think about
34:06
in other situations where a congregation was looking
34:09
to expand their childcare ministry. And it
34:12
turned out that government partners, of all people, were the people
34:15
who really helped to set the table. And I'll never
34:18
forget, uh, listening to this story from this
34:21
congregation in Chicago. They were so nervous to
34:24
go sit with these government leaders. They had their whole talk
34:26
prepared. They go and sit down, start their
34:29
conversation, and two minutes in, the person sitting
34:32
across the table says, wait, you're talking about Concordia
34:35
Ministries? My daughter has been a part of your
34:37
childcare center for years. I know your mission,
34:40
and I'm ready to jump in. Which I think
34:43
underscores a couple of things. One,
34:46
God is here. God is up to something in this space, and
34:49
we have to listen for what the Spirit is doing. But I think
34:51
beyond that, there may be partners already in your
34:54
midst that are completely untapped.
34:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:58
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: And this person didn't even know that they had been connected
35:00
to the community. So next time, maybe do the research.
35:03
But also, like, this is so. This is so exciting to
35:06
see.
35:07
Something else we really enjoyed was seeing that lay leadership and
35:10
pastoral leadership came up the same number of times. Too many
35:12
pastors I know think they need to be a superhero. I need
35:15
an MBA to do this work. And while there are Certainly pastors with
35:18
MBAs who do this work incredibly well, there are also
35:21
a lot of lay leaders in your communities that have gifts that
35:24
they would love to use. Um, speaking as a lay leader
35:27
myself, I think too often, and we get tapped in
35:29
one particular way or we're invited to one particular
35:32
way of engaging in the church, and our other gifts
35:35
languish because nobody asks. Um, so this
35:38
is a really great opportunity to partner and to ask for
35:41
help. How empowering to have the pastoral leader
35:44
say, I'd really love your assistance with this. Like, I'm
35:47
not so good with the numbers. Can you help us run the numbers and see if this
35:50
really makes sense? And I think they'd have a lot of energy
35:53
around it. And as I said before, focus on
35:56
mission really mattered. And then generosity. People think
35:59
that starting a new funding model means generosity in the
36:01
offering plate goes away. And that was the last thing that we
36:04
saw. Um, generosity from unexpected quarters showed up
36:07
everywhere.
36:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:08
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Um, and just finally kind of the openness to change
36:11
right there at the top of the rocket. This is the piece that, at least for my
36:14
fellow Lutherans, gives us heart palpitations.
36:17
Um, remember, it's about openness. You may not
36:20
be open to completely getting rid of your building.
36:23
That's a lot. But might you be open to using
36:26
your kitchen differently one day a week? Might
36:29
you be open to having something happen
36:32
outside of your sanctuary, even if you're not using that sanctuary
36:35
space? Might you be open to having food trucks in your
36:37
parking lot? Look for that one
36:40
small opening and then lean
36:43
in. Because I find that once people try it once
36:46
in a small way, they're more open to the rest of the
36:49
things to come.
36:51
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. And I think this process is so important because
36:54
like you said in that ideation stage, without
36:57
some of that critical buy in or
37:00
critical mass, I don't know how to say it differently. Like
37:04
these ideas can so quickly fall flat,
37:07
folks then get discouraged. And that kind of
37:09
reinforces this resistance to, uh, trying
37:12
something new, trying something again.
37:15
Well, well, again, I want to bring this even
37:18
more practically speaking because you and I were kind of joking about
37:21
this before we started recording.
37:23
Um, let's talk real nuts and bolts here because
37:26
I think one of the things that I was so thankful to read in the
37:29
book and uh, something that I've seen
37:32
in my ministry is folks don't
37:35
often understand the true costs of things.
37:37
And I think I see this most often in
37:40
folks not understanding the true
37:43
costs of renting. So
37:46
again, like, we don't want to like, be
37:49
the church to be a profit center, to use a real businessy word.
37:52
Right. We're not looking to like to necessarily make money.
37:55
But what have you seen?
37:58
Because like, to me, that's something that I bang my head against the wall
38:00
again and again when I see churches, like, we're
38:03
gonna give, you know, a giveaway space for $50
38:06
for, you know, for an entire night. And I think like, like
38:09
that's not even covering like the water and the
38:12
toilet paper, for instance.
38:14
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Exactly. That's the first thing that I would say.
38:17
So your mission is Going to help you figure out how you want
38:20
to charge money for the space. But regardless
38:23
of what you do in terms of charging money, not
38:26
charging money, you have to know how
38:28
much it costs. And believe me, your
38:31
church treasurer, your property team, your finance
38:34
team has been waiting to run these numbers.
38:37
So please put them to work. They will be excited about
38:40
that. There are so many different costs to
38:43
renting out a space. I'm going to name a couple, but there are going to be so
38:46
many that I miss. Like you mentioned, there's water, there's
38:48
toilet paper. There is the cost of cleaning a
38:51
space which people don't think about. There's the wear and tear of the
38:54
space that people don't care about.
38:55
>> Loren: Don't think about it.
38:56
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: There's the staffing cost, because often
38:59
you need to have somebody there to open and close the
39:02
doors. There's a security risk. You may need to add
39:05
additional security features. Sometimes there's permitting
39:08
that you need to have. If you're going to have somebody come in and use your kitchen
39:11
for a commercial purpose, might need to have some
39:13
upgrades done to that kitchen. The list goes on
39:16
and on and on and on. And one of my favorite
39:19
resources I've seen to help total that up,
39:22
um, is rooted goods, resource, how to rent. Well,
39:25
um, very much worth the money.
39:28
Absolutely fantastic. Goes through the details step
39:31
by step. And please, please, please, if you are not a finance
39:33
person, this is a great time to bring in your
39:37
finance, uh, person in your community because they will enjoy
39:40
running through these numbers. Especially if you have somebody who,
39:43
more on the banking, um, or real estate
39:46
side, um, they will have some really interesting perspective to
39:49
bring and encourage them to think of all of the
39:52
costs that you might not be considering. And then once you
39:55
know what that cost is, that's when you can begin
39:58
to have a conversation.
39:59
>> Loren: Yeah.
39:59
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: I certainly know of congregations who say, you know what?
40:02
We know for our community, our mission is to give
40:05
away space, but we know what the cost is.
40:08
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
40:08
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: That's a ministry that we include in our budget. Budget.
40:10
>> Loren: Yes.
40:11
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Cool. That's great. There are other places that say, you
40:14
know, our mission is to offer below market rent.
40:17
And there are plenty of places that I know of that do a sliding
40:19
scale. Um, I think about a congregation I know of in
40:22
Seattle that I love, and their sanctuary space is
40:25
used on Wednesdays for a neighbor who does tai
40:28
chi. And that's a very different price point than when
40:31
it's used for a wedding, than when it's used for a concert,
40:34
and that's okay. And the cool thing about their model is
40:36
they're not secretive about it.
40:38
>> Loren: It.
40:38
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Every single person who comes through their doors knows
40:41
there's a sliding scale. They know that they may be
40:44
offsetting someone else's rent, and they
40:46
appreciate being part of that economic model. They actually
40:49
talk about it as kind of a faithful economic
40:53
model. And I think it's beautiful to see how that
40:55
works. But if you don't know what the cost is, you have no
40:58
idea. I also want to say,
41:01
um, a common
41:03
misconception that I see is people say, well, what about
41:06
AA groups, for instance?
41:08
>> Loren: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
41:09
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: And what they don't remember or don't know is
41:12
that actually an AA group, part of their
41:14
particular process is that they need to
41:17
pay for the spaces they use.
41:20
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
41:21
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Now, I'm not saying they're paying a lot, but they need to pay something.
41:25
And so actually, by taking away that opportunity to
41:28
pay for that space, you're actually taking away a
41:30
piece of their healing process. Us.
41:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:33
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: And that's. That's true with other things as well. We value
41:36
the things that we pay for. And when you allow certain
41:38
organizations to come through not understanding
41:41
the cost of renting out that space, they're going to treat the
41:44
space differently when they have some money
41:48
invested in that process. And again, your mission,
41:51
your community, will determine what that charge might look like.
41:54
But please, please, please understand the costs.
41:56
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm thinking of one church or
41:59
had a congregation conversation with one of their leaders.
42:02
They're renting a community garden.
42:05
But the guy who was talking to, I think, was the treasurer.
42:08
And he was like, we're paying more for water
42:11
than they're giving us in rent, you know, because it
42:14
was a big garden. Something else I was thinking about, too, when
42:16
comparing just the cost of rent. I know I had this conversation
42:19
with a pastor in my area when he asked me, like, hey, what
42:22
should I be charging this church renting
42:25
from my church? And I said, hey, look, uh, at
42:28
that time, I was doing church in a
42:31
public school, and I was like, look, this is what the public
42:34
schools are charging me for four hours a Sunday. And
42:37
it includes costs of staffing,
42:40
cleaning, et cetera, et cetera, utilities.
42:43
So I said, hey, you're not even charging a quarter of that.
42:46
Maybe you could bump it up a little bit, and then just tell
42:49
the. The. The other congregation, like, hey, with this
42:52
additional funds, like, I'm going to be able to improve this. Improve
42:55
the. The cleaning or what have you. What have you.
42:58
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah. And I think that's so vitally important. And I think people assume it's an
43:00
either or. Either we're going to charge full market rent or
43:03
nothing, right? And there's a huge chasm
43:06
in the middle. And if you don't know the data of
43:09
market rent in your community, which, by the way, Google can be
43:12
your friend, at least for an initial blush at what
43:15
that number might be, you're doing yourself a
43:18
disservice. I think, about a congregation, um, that
43:20
I heard about from a student who was renting out to a
43:23
preschool. And they were paying. The preschool
43:26
was paying less per month in that community than I paid
43:29
for my first apartment. And I was like,
43:32
how is this possible? Um, I was just
43:35
laughable. And I couldn't believe that they had
43:38
never done that process to understand the cost or to
43:41
understand what rents look like in their area. And again, you don't
43:44
need to charge full market rent, but if you don't have
43:46
that piece of the data, that piece of the
43:49
puzzle, you can't make a solid decision.
43:52
>> Loren: So let's. And we're kind of running long on time, so hopefully
43:55
you're okay.
43:56
But I think this leads into the social
43:58
entrepreneurship model.
44:01
Um, and I think one of the
44:03
key points in social entrepreneurship that can
44:06
be a, ah, challenge is like, this.
44:09
Not.
44:13
How do I say this? Like you just said, like, not accounting
44:15
for true costs. It kind of goes back to this previous conversation
44:18
of like, if something can't really be done at
44:21
a fair cost, or how, uh, am I,
44:24
you know, not sure how to say this this way? Like,
44:27
then maybe it shouldn't be done. Does that make sense? Because, um, I'm thinking like,
44:30
do you remember, like, when I was studying this years
44:33
ago, there was like a, a story out of Harvard
44:36
or Stanford Review, whatever, about like, this
44:39
nonprofit who made this, like, salad dressing. Do
44:42
you remember reading the story?
44:43
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: And it was like, I don't.
44:44
>> Loren: But keep telling, it was something like, you know, they, they made this
44:46
salad dressing for their nonprofit, and they're like, oh, we made this for
44:49
$3.50 a bottle or something. Like, this is a
44:52
great deal. Like, this is cheaper than you can buy on the shelves. And then
44:55
someone went back and like, realized, like, this is actually costing them
44:58
like $90 a bottle or something. Just stupid, ridiculous like
45:01
that. Uh, so when churches think about,
45:03
like, can we do a social entrepreneurship
45:06
or something to bring in some additional revenue, how do you advise
45:09
churches to be like, hey, look, the, the actual cost, like,
45:12
you can't do this, uh, if a preschool or,
45:15
uh, something can't, like, Pay
45:18
what it's going to cost to maintain even their space. For
45:21
instance, like, how do you say, like, hey, this is a good idea, but
45:24
maybe something you shouldn't pursue.
45:26
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yes. That's why I think it's so, so important in the ideation
45:29
process to consider a variety of ideas, a variety of different
45:32
scenarios, and to really listen deeply in your community. I
45:35
think about one of the congregations we studied in Gulf
45:37
Shores, Alabama, and two of the ideas that emerged as
45:40
they were listening was childcare and also
45:43
was new entrepreneurship spaces. And,
45:46
and they, of course, like any church,
45:49
leaned into childcare because that sounds really fun. And
45:52
they did the math. And it just didn't. It just didn't
45:55
math for that particular community. Again, I'm not saying that doesn't
45:57
math in general, but just for them, it didn't. And so they
46:00
decided to lean into helping small business owners in
46:03
their community. And it actually was really deeply
46:06
rooted in their mission. And it's been exciting to see. Now a
46:09
couple of years later, they've got all these spaces rented
46:12
out in their congregation, and now one of
46:15
the people that they're going to be renting to one of these small businesses
46:18
is actually a daycare center. Um,
46:21
so it all kind of came back around for them later.
46:24
But if they had just leaned into childcare because
46:27
it felt like the idea they wanted to pursue
46:30
and it felt like what a church should be doing, which I
46:32
think is always the enemy, um, it wouldn't have made
46:35
sense. It wouldn't have made sense long term. And so that's where I
46:38
think, coming back to the discernment process, the listening
46:41
process really, really matters. Where I see a
46:44
sweet spot for Congreg is when you've got an
46:47
underutilized asset, it doesn't always have to be your space.
46:50
It can be an underutilized staff asset, a lay, a leader
46:53
asset, whatever it might end up being. And then
46:56
what is the community doing and what is God's mission up to?
46:59
That's where those sweet spots emerge. I would
47:02
also say with that social enterprise example, what
47:05
I often see is congregations want to meet a
47:08
community need without also looking out at other
47:11
partners in their community. So, yeah, I'm going to sell my salad
47:13
dressing at 350. Uh, but what does that mean for
47:16
other salad dressings that are out there at $5?
47:19
I see this with churches who want to start cafes and there's a
47:22
cafe down the street that they're now taking away business from.
47:25
What does that mean in your neighborhood?
47:28
Just because they are a Starbucks or another Name brand
47:30
doesn't mean that you should be taking away business from them.
47:33
So how do you have an open conversation about what's needed in
47:36
the community and partnering with neighbors who are already
47:39
doing this work because God is already up to
47:42
something in your community. Um, and don't rush into
47:45
starting a social enterprise just because it sounds like the fun, cool new
47:48
thing we have to make sure it pencil out on paper.
47:51
>> Loren: Let me ask one more question here before we take a break related to this
47:54
question. I think sometimes churches can
47:57
be resistant for obvious reasons. Like there's some
48:00
complications to pursuing like
48:03
renting a church or renting a church space, for instance, to a
48:06
purely business model. But uh, and there's
48:08
obviously some, what is ubit the term unrelated business income
48:11
tax expenses. Like I was at a
48:14
church where they, they did that and had dealt with that.
48:17
Um, so talk a little bit about how like that's not
48:20
necessarily a for sure like hard brick wall
48:23
obstacle, even if like it's not directly mission
48:26
related. But again, going back to like Elson's point, like it's not
48:29
off mission.
48:31
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: No, not at all. And Loren, I'm excited to
48:34
see that we got 46 minutes into this conversation before
48:36
taxes were brought up. That's a record. It's wonderful. I love
48:39
this. Um, so what I would say about that is
48:42
taxes often become a first point of tension. People
48:45
get really panicky about losing their
48:47
501c3 stat. I can't say I have
48:50
any idea where that's actually coming from.
48:53
Um, it's very, very rare to lose a
48:56
501c3 status. Um, and I actually
48:58
can't say personally that I've connected with any
49:01
congregation where that's been the case. There are a lot of
49:04
other hurdles before you would get to that point.
49:07
I think where things can get tricky actually is not
49:10
with taxes, um, but is actually with working with
49:13
city and local government around zone. That tends to be the
49:16
bigger challenge. So if you're thinking about a space
49:18
oriented idea, what I always say is you
49:21
want to get in touch with a local attorney, an accountant as
49:24
soon as you can. Somebody from outside of your community
49:27
right in the midst of the ideation process is a great time
49:30
to bring them in because they're going to be able to say to you, great, you want to
49:33
rent out your space. Here are five different things that you might
49:36
do that might help reduce that tax liability
49:39
or potentially eliminate that tax liability, depending on how
49:42
you decide to go forward. And guess what, if you have
49:44
to pay some taxes, it's going to be okay.
49:47
And in fact, that's just part of the numbers that you pencil
49:50
out. So you might know, yeah, we're going to have to pay some
49:53
unrelated business tax. And so as we're considering what we want to
49:56
charge for rent, we're going to account for that idea. That's going to be
49:59
included in our budget from now on. Um, it really
50:01
is not the end of the world.
50:04
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for saying that, because I feel like I've had these
50:07
conversations where people just, like, freak out, be like, oh, tax, taxes,
50:10
unrelated business income taxes, like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's a
50:13
thing people do that.
50:14
Uh, not a deal breaker,
50:17
but it speaks to the importance of your rocket ship, of doing your
50:20
due diligence. Before you get into these conversations,
50:23
uh, make sure you're giving a true cost of rent, because
50:26
like you said, you want to do some legwork with a lawyer, perhaps, or
50:29
accountant to make sure all your I's are
50:32
dotted and your T's are crossed. Well,
50:35
with taxes. That's the most fun thing about this
50:37
conversation. Right. Well, let's leave it there and take a
50:40
break. Uh, the book is funding a
50:43
Pathway to More Sustainable Models for Ministry.
50:46
Highly recommend it.
50:47
Um, let's take a break and come back with some closing questions.
50:53
We are back with Grace Duddy Pomeroy, and thank you
50:56
so much for this conversation. I, uh, hope it's helpful for
50:59
our listeners. So, some closing questions. We always
51:02
tell folks you can take as seriously or not as you'd like to.
51:07
I feel like I should ask these
51:10
from a financial point of view.
51:12
Um, but if you're
51:15
Pope for a day, and again, think of it,
51:18
you can imagine yourself as the literal Pope. Um,
51:21
you could imagine yourself as the ruler of
51:24
Christendom and be as seriously or as
51:27
nice as you'd like to. But I'm just curious, if you had
51:31
some authority for a day, what would
51:34
you like to do with that day?
51:37
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: That's a great question. I also have to say that I am
51:40
so glad I am not the Pope. I
51:43
really love my position as a lay
51:46
leader in the church. It gives me a lot of flexibility.
51:48
And when it comes to church administration, being in the
51:51
peanut gallery is so much fun. So no, thanks
51:54
is probably what I would say first. But if I were forced
51:57
into it, I would just encourage more time in listening
52:00
and discerning. Less doing things and
52:03
more time listening and discerning.
52:06
>> Loren: Good. Uh, a theologian or
52:09
historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
52:13
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: I struggled a bit with this question because I feel like my
52:15
answers are too generic. My first, of course,
52:18
idea was I would love, um, love to
52:21
have a conversation or really actually just listen to a
52:24
sermon live by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. That would
52:27
have been incredible. Um, his sermons have been so important
52:30
to me. But honestly, as I thought about it more,
52:33
I wanted to twist the question a bit. Uh,
52:36
I was chatting with a group last night of clergy and lay
52:39
leaders, and we were dwelling in the Zacchaeus story. And
52:42
I think I'd really love to have a conversation with Zacchaeus.
52:45
>> Loren: Interesting.
52:45
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: I would love to sit with him to hear what that
52:48
transformational experience was like for him, to hear how his
52:51
life changed after that moment. Um,
52:53
and we're both finance people, so I think we would have gotten along very well.
52:57
>> Loren: Right? Yeah. That's good. That's good.
52:59
Um, what do you think history will remember from our current
53:02
time and place?
53:03
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah, I was
53:06
reflecting on how
53:09
when we look back at the past, the more recent
53:12
American church past, so I think about
53:15
the time not too long ago, uh, when
53:18
we had to shift from being dependent on being government
53:21
supported in the church to actually being supported by tithes and
53:23
auxiliary. And funny enough, we don't remember
53:26
their fear and their panic around that moment,
53:30
but we do remember the new model that they set forth for
53:32
us. And I hope that that's what history remembers
53:35
here. Um, that there was some trepidation in
53:38
the midst of change because it gives people in the future permission
53:41
to feel that fear as well. But that we charted
53:44
a new pathway forward, uh, that we
53:47
leaned in to the biblical text,
53:50
to spiritual practices, and allowed that guide the way,
53:53
uh, to what we created next. And I think people remember more
53:56
about what we created and less about the decline, which is what
53:59
we seem to be so obsessed with talking about.
54:01
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good, That's a good point.
54:04
Um, what are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
54:08
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Oh, um, my hopes for the future of Christianity
54:11
are wide. Um, I think the
54:14
gospel has so much prevalence
54:17
today. It is. Is so meaningful
54:19
and necessary in this moment
54:23
to bring hope, to bring grace, to bring mercy.
54:26
And I would love to see us focus more on
54:28
that than on
54:31
the details of decline, on the
54:34
differences that we have in our communities, but really to
54:37
lean into the power of the gospel and to the transformative
54:40
experiences. I had a conversation last night with some lay leaders and
54:43
clergy leaders from different denominational traditions about
54:45
how they had experienced God. And those are the types
54:48
of conversations I want to spend more time in.
54:51
>> Loren: Absolutely. Yeah. I love that.
54:54
Okay. I'M going to throw one at you here because
54:57
you're a finance person. I feel like I got to ask this.
55:00
What is one thing you would tell churches,
55:04
again, in the financial realm to stop doing, like,
55:06
immediately? And one thing you tell them to start
55:09
doing.
55:10
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Oh, yeah. Yes.
55:11
>> Loren: So, and it can be like, you know,
55:14
stop using QuickBooks and start using this platform or,
55:17
you know, something like that. Even simple.
55:20
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Oh, I might not even go down that far of details. But one of
55:23
the things that churches do that particularly annoys me
55:26
is what I have, um, sometimes referred
55:29
to as, uh, death by a thousand cuts. Budgeting,
55:32
where we tend to just make tiny little cuts to
55:34
every single area of our budget, hoping that
55:37
that eventually brings us back into the rest.
55:40
Back into the black again. Sorry, Back into the black.
55:43
>> Loren: Yes.
55:43
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Uh, that doesn't make any sense.
55:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
55:46
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: When we are in a point of being in the red,
55:49
I think that's where we need to have some really clear discernment
55:52
conversations. And so what I would encourage
55:54
congregations to do when they see these things
55:57
emerge is understand, why are
56:00
we in the red in this moment? Why do we see a deficit
56:02
emerging? Because there could be a variety of reasons. Maybe there was
56:05
a death in the congregation of a big donor. Maybe there
56:08
was a boost in our utility bills that we didn't expect.
56:11
Inflation is a real thing. Get to know the reasons and
56:14
symptoms behind it. Don't assume that that year is a fluke,
56:17
which I often see congregations do.
56:19
Spend the time and then say, what does this
56:22
mean for us? What broader changes might we need
56:25
to make? If we assume that this trend will continue,
56:29
then let's make decisions with five years ahead in mind
56:32
and not just make something happen for this year.
56:35
That kind of, um, allows us to hedge our background bets.
56:38
Um, and I think that's where congregations get themselves in trouble.
56:41
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. One thing then, to start doing.
56:45
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah, so I think to start doing. I would, I would take that different
56:48
approach in the process. But I think the biggest thing I would encourage
56:51
congregations to start doing is if you are seeing this decline
56:53
in income, take it seriously that first year
56:56
that it happens. Oftentimes I see that
56:59
attendance trends, um, will
57:02
be ahead of our finance trends. So
57:05
when you start losing different members of the congregation, your
57:08
finances won't follow for a couple of years. So when you do see
57:11
that pop up, um, that is the
57:14
time, uh, to begin having this conversation, if not
57:16
sooner, because guess what? Creating a more sustainable model for
57:19
ministry isn't just for those who are desperate. It's for
57:22
everyone. So that's what I would encourage people to do.
57:25
>> Loren: Yeah, it's interesting. We need to wrap it up here. But it is interesting how
57:28
giving really has become a lag
57:32
metric, especially during
57:34
COVID Like, there was so much obsession about income,
57:38
and income and giving really were, were strong
57:40
during COVID as people kind of like,
57:43
I don't know, dug in and said, hey, we're really going to commit
57:46
to something we believe in.
57:48
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yes.
57:48
>> Loren: Um, it's fascinating. Well, thanks for, thanks for,
57:51
thanks for going there with me. Uh, how can folks connect with
57:54
you?
57:55
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Yeah, the best way to connect with me is on Faith
57:58
Lead. So you can find me@, uh,
58:00
faithlead.org FundingForward is where you
58:03
can find all of the different research. You can find a
58:06
free chapter of my book. So if you're interested and you want to just feel it out
58:09
before you buy, I totally understand. We also have an
58:12
ebook of the research project that has a lot of
58:15
our key findings. And what I have found is for the church
58:18
treasurer folks that are a little skeptical, um,
58:21
this can be a great perspective for them
58:24
because hearing stories will only go so far. They want to see
58:27
the data. And it's free, so please check it out.
58:30
Um, and then I would also encourage, I do some side,
58:33
uh, work right now for an organization called
58:35
Renlevin that is really passionate about helping
58:38
congregations, uh, transform their spaces into community
58:40
hubs and affordable housing. So if that's something that you're interested
58:44
in, please check out relevance work@relevan.org
58:47
awesome.
58:47
>> Loren: Awesome.
58:47
Well, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate the conversation.
58:50
Always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's
58:53
peace be with you.
58:55
>> Grace Duddy Pomeroy: Thank you.
59:04
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
59:07
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by by Resonate
59:10
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59:12
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59:14
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59:33
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