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PACE GRAD DISAPPEARS ON WAY TO FAMILY WEDDING: WHERE'S CHELSEA? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous young Pace University grad,
0:09
Speaker 1: sets out in her four escape to meet her parents
0:12
Speaker 1: at a Connecticut wedding, but somewhere along the way something
0:17
Speaker 1: goes horribly wrong. She never makes it to the wedding,
0:21
Speaker 1: her car abandoned. But no, Chelsea, good evening. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:27
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
0:30
Speaker 1: being with us.
0:31
Speaker 2: Hello.
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Speaker 3: Hello, how are you doing. I'm okay, how are you?
0:34
Speaker 3: I'm doing great? Are you doing all right? Yeah?
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Speaker 4: I just just doing a photoshoot of the Glass soldiers and.
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Speaker 3: Got a little emotional crying. Okay, I got back on
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Speaker 3: the road. Yeah, okay, I'm just making sure someone called
0:45
Speaker 3: it in song. Oh I'm sorry. Oh no, you're quite
0:48
Speaker 3: all right. I mean I was just doing a photo shoot.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, packed up.
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Speaker 3: I'm going to leave soon, okay. And I just didn't
0:54
Speaker 3: want to jibe like that.
0:55
Speaker 1: Sad you are hearing, Chelsea, that's Chelsea. What's happening in
1:01
Speaker 1: this video is an officer sees Chelsea in her Ford escape. Part. Now,
1:09
Speaker 1: Chelsea has a master's degree. She's a clinical psychologist, but
1:13
Speaker 1: she's also a very very astute photographer, and she took
1:20
Speaker 1: it upon herself. She was going to a photo shoot.
1:24
Speaker 1: She was conducting a photo shoot about lost soldiers. And
1:29
Speaker 1: here is this cute, cute girl sitting in a car
1:33
Speaker 1: at the cemetery of soldiers and taking photos and she
1:38
Speaker 1: starts crying, and a cop comes up and says, hey,
1:41
Speaker 1: are you okay? And what's significant in my mind is
1:45
Speaker 1: she's perfectly fine at that moment. For Pete's sake, a
1:50
Speaker 1: cop asks her, Hey, okay, he's your car working. Take
1:53
Speaker 1: a listen to more.
1:54
Speaker 3: I don't know.
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Speaker 5: If you want somebody else to drive you, or if
1:56
Speaker 5: you just want to hang out here for a little
1:57
Speaker 5: bit longer, You're more than welcome to do that.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's okay, if I.
2:00
Speaker 4: Hang out here for another like fifteen or twenty and
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Speaker 4: then head on the road, that would be my player.
2:04
Speaker 5: I think, Yeah, I don't see any signs of a
2:06
Speaker 5: pairment or anything like that, So yeah, I.
2:07
Speaker 4: Know that's what I just I mean, with my with
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Speaker 4: my eyesight and then crying, it's not the best combination.
2:13
Speaker 4: At night, I was like, I'm just gonna like cry
2:16
Speaker 4: on the road or I'm just gonna sit here and cry.
2:19
Speaker 3: So I got my dragon and I'm just oh, that's
2:21
Speaker 3: FREAKINGCLUDI well, Rozzie think she's asleep? Wow, right on, she
2:26
Speaker 3: got bored.
2:28
Speaker 1: I'm listening to her. She's talking about Rozzie. Who is
2:32
Speaker 1: her new pet. I think it's Komodo dragon. Look, So
2:38
Speaker 1: she takes as a matter of fact, that's why she
2:41
Speaker 1: was going to travel by car to the Connecticut wedding,
2:45
Speaker 1: because the airline wouldn't let her leave Rosie the dragon.
2:52
Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, my daughter Lucy has
2:55
Speaker 1: a friend who is obsessed with this very type of pet,
2:59
Speaker 1: and I don't understand the attraction to a reptile, but
3:03
Speaker 1: apparently it's very common. So instead of taking a plane
3:07
Speaker 1: and leaving the new pet behind, she wants to pet
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Speaker 1: with her on the way to the wedding. Hence she's driving.
3:17
Speaker 1: Take a listen to some more.
3:18
Speaker 3: Do you have like a hotel around here or anything?
3:20
Speaker 3: I don't.
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Speaker 4: I was actually thinking of just camping for the night,
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Speaker 4: but I wasn't really sure exactly yet.
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Speaker 5: Gotcha, Well, we didn't plan to be here till sunset. Okay,
3:27
Speaker 5: you can't camp in the city limits. It's kind of
3:29
Speaker 5: like a city statue we have you can always go.
3:32
Speaker 5: I don't know if you can see like the yellow
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Speaker 5: lights over there at the loves, it's a truck or
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Speaker 5: stop in the gas station there.
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Speaker 3: You can just sleep there. Nobody will bother you.
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Speaker 1: Okay, right there, right there, I see trouble going to
3:47
Speaker 1: a truck stop. A woman alone at not yet. I
3:52
Speaker 1: don't like that. And the fact that she couldn't camp
3:57
Speaker 1: in city limits. I understand that. But she's all alone
4:03
Speaker 1: and thinks she's going to camp for the night somewhere
4:06
Speaker 1: she's never been before and hasn't planned out. Guys, we're
4:11
Speaker 1: talking about an absolutely precious young grad. She graduated Pace
4:18
Speaker 1: University and is now a clinical psychologist, believe it or not,
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Speaker 1: got her master's degree, devoting her life to helping others.
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Speaker 1: She agrees to meet her mom and dad at a
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Speaker 1: Connecticut family wedding, and she never shows up. That's a
4:34
Speaker 1: bearded dragon, not a Kimodo dragon. A bearded dragon joining
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Speaker 1: me and I'll start panel to make sense of what
4:41
Speaker 1: we know right now, including my longtime friend and colleague
4:46
Speaker 1: Mark Klass, who has devoted his life to helping to
4:51
Speaker 1: find missing people. Before I go to Mark for his advice,
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Speaker 1: I want to go to Zarah Barker investigator report, Fox five,
5:00
Speaker 1: San Diego zero. Thank you so much for being with us.
5:03
Speaker 1: Tell me about the decision to drive to the wedding
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Speaker 1: as opposed to taking a very simple flight. Now, listen,
5:13
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. I just took a cross country
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Speaker 1: trip and an RV with my children. Okay, we ended
5:19
Speaker 1: up in the Tetons and Yellowstone and we camped out
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Speaker 1: every night. But we had it planned, Sarah. I knew
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Speaker 1: what OURV camp, where we would stay at each stop.
5:33
Speaker 1: I had a lot of it. I worked with Triple
5:35
Speaker 1: A to get across country map, to figure out how
5:37
Speaker 1: the hey I was going to do this, planned the menus,
5:41
Speaker 1: what we would need to cook out on a Dutch
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Speaker 1: oven in a hole in the dirt every night. And
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Speaker 1: it worked. But this was impromptu, a sudden decision. Tell
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Speaker 1: me about that decision.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, Nancy, it's been seven months since she was last
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Speaker 6: seen and we still have so many questions, including why
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Speaker 6: she actually made that decision to take this cross country
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Speaker 6: road trip by herself. I mean, this was a big trek.
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Speaker 6: This was twenty eight hundred miles from here in San Diego,
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Speaker 6: California to a family wedding. As you said, in Connecticut,
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Speaker 6: so we don't know exactly what her thought process was.
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Speaker 6: We do know that she had intended to fly in
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Speaker 6: the beginning, but she had newly acquired that pet, bearded
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Speaker 6: dragon named Rossi, and she couldn't fly with that animal.
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Speaker 6: So instead of flying and maybe leaving that pet with
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Speaker 6: a friend back home here in San Diego, she decided
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Speaker 6: to drive and make this twenty eight hundred mile trek
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Speaker 6: all by herself, which is where a lot of these
6:39
Speaker 6: issues tend to arise.
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Speaker 1: You know what, I don't like, Mark klass and through
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Speaker 1: no fault of your own, Zarabet Marker. Somehow it sounds
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Speaker 1: like we're saying, Wow, it's her fault. She took a
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Speaker 1: twenty eight hundred trip across twenty eight hundred mile trip
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Speaker 1: across the country. It's not her fault. Yes, she made
7:00
Speaker 1: that decision. But you know what, Mark, don't you ever
7:03
Speaker 1: just get up to hear I mean, think about it,
7:06
Speaker 1: Molly Tavis, Karina Vitronto, Eliza Fletcher, Women minding our own business,
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Speaker 1: out for a job, driving their car across the country.
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Speaker 1: How we end up target so much.
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Speaker 7: Well, it's a daunting trip and I think we'll all
7:25
Speaker 7: agree with that. Going across country by yourself. It's not
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Speaker 7: even something that I would want to do as a man.
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Speaker 7: But something went down in Phoenix, and maybe in her head,
7:38
Speaker 7: maybe she met somebody. I don't know the answer to that,
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Speaker 7: but something occurred in Phoenix. Unlike you, I don't think
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Speaker 7: that there was any problem with her camping by herself
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Speaker 7: at a truck stop. I've worked with the trucking industry
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Speaker 7: in the past, and I've dealt with truck stops in
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Speaker 7: the past, and they have a good safety record.
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Speaker 1: The last person and I want to tangle with right
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Speaker 1: now as Mark class, but let me direct you to
8:04
Speaker 1: my most recent book, Don't Be a Victim. You ever
8:08
Speaker 1: heard the name Israel Keys. He was a mass killer,
8:12
Speaker 1: a serial killer who targeted people camping at RV stops,
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Speaker 1: at truck stops. It happens, and who gets targeted women,
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Speaker 1: That's who. And this is not about truckers. This is
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Speaker 1: about criminals. You know how many truckers have helped me
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Speaker 1: solve cases a thousand. This is not about them. This
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Speaker 1: is about a sudden decision not to continue driving and
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Speaker 1: to have an impromptu camp out. You don't even know
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Speaker 1: where where you're going to be, what the security is
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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, Gabby Chatino dispersed. Camping that spot wasn't
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Speaker 1: necessarily planned. She's dead, I mean to do. Let me
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Speaker 1: go to Justin Yenti's private instigator who has been working
9:01
Speaker 1: with the grim family. That's Chelsea's family, also in the
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Speaker 1: Criminal Defense Investigators of Arizona at Arizona Investigative Associates. Justin,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Please save me from
9:13
Speaker 1: a fight an argument with Mark klascause he's totally gonna win.
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Speaker 1: I already know that, but Justin to help. What what
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Speaker 1: does the tell me about the search? Hold on, Justin,
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Speaker 1: I've got a little more of Chelsea's voice and that night,
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Speaker 1: which is the closest thing I can get to Chelsea. Listen,
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Speaker 1: let's get.
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Speaker 5: Some good shots at sunrise too there, all right on, yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 5: the sunrise here too. If you ever want to take
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Speaker 5: photoshoots like the statues in the morning, it's it's really
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Speaker 5: cool because the sun rises.
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Speaker 3: Right behind them. Amazing.
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Speaker 4: Okay, I'll probably stay at the truck stuff then save
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Speaker 4: some money and then put them over for the sunrise.
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Speaker 3: You got it?
9:48
Speaker 1: Cool?
9:49
Speaker 3: All right? Well, yes, great time. I'm Blake. Thanks Blake,
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Speaker 3: we got it. Appreciate your good passion. You got it. See,
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Speaker 3: I just just hang out here, however all you want,
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Speaker 3: and you're gonna go.
10:05
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace Justin Yentez, private investigator working
10:15
Speaker 1: with Chelsea's family. What were her movements after that? When
10:20
Speaker 1: the cop says, hey, are you okay? Is your car okay?
10:23
Speaker 1: Why are you here? And she's doing a photo shoot?
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Speaker 1: Very very talented? What were her movements after that?
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Speaker 2: So what we've done is compile somewhat of a timeline
10:33
Speaker 2: based on what we can verify. We know that her
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Speaker 2: last phone activity was on nine twenty seven per ATMT.
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Speaker 2: She's at the video, She's on a video at the
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Speaker 2: motel on September twenty eighth, and then was on some
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Speaker 2: folks property later that day at twenty one hundred hours
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Speaker 2: at the Worthington's property. And so we're really trying to
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Speaker 2: arrowed down every verifiable movement that she had. Unfortunately, with
11:08
Speaker 2: she was an AT and T subscriber, so when the
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Speaker 2: officers from Cocainino County sent an exigent circumstances request to
11:16
Speaker 2: AT and T, they got less information than is provided
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Speaker 2: with other providers, for example, with with Verizon. If she
11:24
Speaker 2: were to be with Verizon, we would have received a
11:27
Speaker 2: list of the cell tower hits, the different panels that
11:30
Speaker 2: it that it a cell phone had connected to. Unfortunately,
11:35
Speaker 2: AT and T does not provide that in their their
11:38
Speaker 2: exigen circumstances missing person's requests, So our ability to pinpoint
11:45
Speaker 2: where she was at is limited to the videos that
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Speaker 2: that are on the internet and that have been shared,
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Speaker 2: these photos that that were on her camera, A couple
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Speaker 2: of folks that saw her vehicle, would the hunters that
12:00
Speaker 2: were that were out and spoke with her and this officer.
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Speaker 2: So unfortunately we're limited into as to how much we
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Speaker 2: can we can actually verify of her movements from.
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Speaker 8: That point on.
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Speaker 1: Now, let me understand something about the AT and T issue.
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Speaker 1: Are you saying they don't have the data, that it
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Speaker 1: doesn't exist that other so phone carriers would have, or
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Speaker 1: that you can't get your mits on it, that it's
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Speaker 1: there but they haven't given it to you.
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Speaker 8: It's the latter. So generally, when you have a.
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Speaker 2: Crime that happened, the officers will get a search warrant
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Speaker 2: because they've got probable cause to do so. That didn't
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Speaker 2: happen in this case because there was according to the officers,
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Speaker 2: they had no probable cost to obtain a search warrant
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Speaker 2: to get the sell data records from AT and T,
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Speaker 2: and so all they were able to get were the
12:52
Speaker 2: extent circumstances missing person files, which were very limited with
12:56
Speaker 2: AT and T.
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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, what about when was that justin? When
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Speaker 1: when was that last attempt?
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Speaker 2: The last attempt to get these cell phone records from
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Speaker 2: AT and T was when it originally occurred. Now we
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Speaker 2: are in the process of you got a question there.
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Speaker 2: You seem mind blown.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I do, because many months have passed since then,
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Speaker 1: and I would speak logically that what may have been, Hey,
13:25
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have any evidence of wrongdoing, but
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Speaker 1: now her car's abandoned, she missed the wedding, nobody can
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Speaker 1: find her, or she's been gone for months. Wouldn't that
13:35
Speaker 1: be probable cause to get full data to find her
13:37
Speaker 1: last cell phone? Ping ding ding.
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Speaker 8: That's that's what I have have argued.
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Speaker 2: We've worked together with Cocainino County, with San Diego Police,
13:47
Speaker 2: trying to build probable cause that the Cocadino County Sheriff's
13:52
Speaker 2: Office would agree to present to a judge to get
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Speaker 2: a search for it. There's been differences of opinions on
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Speaker 2: whether or not cause exists. Those from San Diego felt
14:02
Speaker 2: that it did. I felt that we had at least
14:05
Speaker 2: enough to make an attempt. Cocanino disagreed. So we have
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Speaker 2: not been able to get a search warrant for those
14:13
Speaker 2: self doubt cell records.
14:15
Speaker 1: What is Cocanino County? Where is that?
14:17
Speaker 2: That's where Flagstaff is located. It's right in that area
14:21
Speaker 2: where Williams is.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Mark Klass joining me, this is a champion in victims' rights.
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Speaker 1: Mark class Well, that's completely bass Awkwards. She's been gone
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Speaker 1: this many months and Cocanino County authorities just saying, yeah,
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Speaker 1: we don't think we've got enough PC PROBA cause for
14:42
Speaker 1: a warrant to get the self openings of all things.
14:45
Speaker 1: It's not like you're breaking into somebody's house and tearing
14:48
Speaker 1: them out of the bed. It's getting some documents from
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Speaker 1: AT and T.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's definitely information that can help the case one
14:56
Speaker 7: way or another to be able to just track where
14:58
Speaker 7: she went.
14:59
Speaker 9: Chelsea Gramm is originally from Stamford, Connecticut, where she was
15:02
Speaker 9: raised by her parents, Stephen and Janet grim. Chelsea attends
15:06
Speaker 9: Pace University in New York, where she studies psychology and
15:09
Speaker 9: graduates with a master's degree in social work. Putting her
15:12
Speaker 9: degree to good use, she works for the New York
15:14
Speaker 9: City Department of Education as a twelfth grade social worker.
15:18
Speaker 9: Chelsea Grim heads to the West Coast, moving to Ocean Beach, California,
15:22
Speaker 9: a beachfront neighborhood of San Diego.
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Speaker 1: She is a.
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Speaker 9: Licensed associate clinical social worker, photographer, and an artist.
15:29
Speaker 10: Three days, Chelsea arrives in Phoenix, where she meets her
15:33
Speaker 10: sister and a friend. Grim makes plans to meet this
15:36
Speaker 10: same friend for lunch the next day, but cancels. Same day.
15:40
Speaker 10: Chelsea Grim stops at a motel in Seligman, about one
15:43
Speaker 10: hundred and sixty miles worth of Phoenix, where she tries
15:46
Speaker 10: to book a room with euros instead of euros currency.
15:50
Speaker 10: She mentions to the clerk wanting to be off grid
15:53
Speaker 10: and asks if there's any places in town that would
15:56
Speaker 10: exchange euros.
15:58
Speaker 1: So this woman and this young woman a talented young
16:02
Speaker 1: photographer planning to document her twenty eight hundred mile trip,
16:07
Speaker 1: a road trip from her home in San Diego to
16:10
Speaker 1: meet her parents and a family wedding all the way
16:12
Speaker 1: across the country in Connecticut. She plans to take photos
16:16
Speaker 1: all the way along that trip. What goes wrong, Her
16:22
Speaker 1: fod escape is found abandoned. But no Chelsea. Now we're
16:27
Speaker 1: hearing from our friends at crime Online that she's there
16:32
Speaker 1: in this location one hundred and sixty miles north of Phoenix,
16:36
Speaker 1: and she tries put him to book a room with Euros. Well,
16:39
Speaker 1: of course that doesn't work. Zara Barker is joining US
16:43
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Fox five San Diego. Zarah, I'm still hung
16:48
Speaker 1: up on the fact that neither San Diego nor a
16:52
Speaker 1: Coconino County thinks there's enough probable cause to get a
16:55
Speaker 1: wanant for her cell phone pings. Because if I had that,
16:59
Speaker 1: I would know where she was last using her phone,
17:02
Speaker 1: not necessarily that it even was used, where it was
17:05
Speaker 1: paying before it went dad or was destroyed. Then I
17:09
Speaker 1: could start looking for witnesses. I could start looking for
17:12
Speaker 1: surveillance video stop like video businesses or business surveillance protection video.
17:21
Speaker 1: But I can't do that because they don't have the
17:23
Speaker 1: sale data.
17:24
Speaker 11: Yeah, that is very shocking to hear.
17:25
Speaker 12: You know.
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Speaker 6: In my reporting, I was in contact with both San
17:28
Speaker 6: Diego Police and the Coconino County Sheriff's Department, and when
17:32
Speaker 6: I contacted San Diego Police, they said this is a
17:34
Speaker 6: Cocanino County case and SDPD could not even comment on
17:39
Speaker 6: it in any capacity. So we don't exactly know the
17:41
Speaker 6: extent of investigation that SDPD has been doing, but it's
17:45
Speaker 6: clear that they're.
17:46
Speaker 11: On board with even wanting this warrant.
17:48
Speaker 6: So we don't know why Cocanino County is not wanting
17:52
Speaker 6: to get this warrant, especially with it being seven months
17:55
Speaker 6: since this has happened.
17:56
Speaker 1: And joining me is doctor Leslie dos and clinical forensic
18:01
Speaker 1: psychologists at doctor Leslie Doobson dot com. Her most recent book,
18:06
Speaker 1: The Friend Cleands How to Set Boundaries with Energy Vampires.
18:12
Speaker 1: Doctor Leslie, thank you for being with us, Doctor Leslie.
18:17
Speaker 1: I got a question for you. It seems as if
18:21
Speaker 1: many people, they may not come out and say it,
18:25
Speaker 1: but they blame the victim for wearing a jogging bra
18:33
Speaker 1: and then the victim ends up dead. It is somehow
18:35
Speaker 1: connected to the jogging bra or wearing EarPods. Oh, it's
18:39
Speaker 1: her fault. I would never do that, or go into
18:43
Speaker 1: a restaurant or a bar by herself at ten o'clock
18:47
Speaker 1: at night. What was she doing out at that time.
18:48
Speaker 1: I mean, we find a million reasons to somehow very
18:53
Speaker 1: insidiously suggest it's her fault. Why is it her fault
18:58
Speaker 1: this time? Because she her beard a dragon, we're crossing
19:02
Speaker 1: the country there, she did it. It's her fault. That
19:06
Speaker 1: would never happen to me. I wouldn't do that. Well,
19:08
Speaker 1: I did do that, But what is it we so
19:11
Speaker 1: desperately look for reasons to blame the victim.
19:15
Speaker 12: I think a lot of us don't understand the mind
19:17
Speaker 12: of the perpetrator, and so it's so easy to blame
19:19
Speaker 12: the victim. But really, she may have been followed. We
19:23
Speaker 12: have restraining orders. We have an ex boyfriend fiance too.
19:27
Speaker 1: Justin yenttis private investigator who's working with the grim family.
19:31
Speaker 1: What is this about ex boyfriends?
19:34
Speaker 2: There were some some ex boyfriends that she'd had some
19:37
Speaker 2: serious relationships that didn't end well. So we've we've been
19:43
Speaker 2: in contact justice some of those folks.
19:45
Speaker 1: Can't we all say that, can't we all have a
19:49
Speaker 1: couple of exes we wish we had never met, but
19:52
Speaker 1: we did. So what are they murdered?
19:55
Speaker 8: For sure?
19:55
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that there that anyone's really a murder suspect.
19:59
Speaker 8: At this time.
19:59
Speaker 2: We're just you know, our agency was brought on several
20:02
Speaker 2: months ago to put new eyes on this, and so
20:05
Speaker 2: we started looking at all of the areas with the
20:09
Speaker 2: attempt to not focus on what had already been done
20:14
Speaker 2: or what the obvious resolution or circumstances.
20:20
Speaker 8: May have been.
20:21
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about the boyfriend?
20:23
Speaker 8: Not a whole lot at this at this point.
20:25
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Well, isn't it true that from what I understand,
20:29
Speaker 1: I'll go to Zera Barker on this Fox five. Isn't
20:33
Speaker 1: it true that the ex was nowhere near where she
20:36
Speaker 1: was at the time she went missing.
20:38
Speaker 6: That's what we had heard as well. But again, we
20:41
Speaker 6: couldn't even get in touch with any of her friends
20:45
Speaker 6: or ex boyfriends, especially anyone here locally in San Diego.
20:49
Speaker 6: And I think part of that is because she had
20:51
Speaker 6: actually moved to San Diego Ocean Beach during the pandemics.
20:54
Speaker 6: We don't know exactly how well connected she was with
20:57
Speaker 6: our local community here.
20:58
Speaker 1: Justin Yantez investigator and working with the Grim family. Are
21:03
Speaker 1: you or anyone in her family aware of a boyfriend
21:07
Speaker 1: and her new residence. Yes, yes, we are, okay, And
21:14
Speaker 1: isn't it true that that particular boyfriend was nowhere near
21:19
Speaker 1: where she was when she went missing.
21:21
Speaker 8: Yeah, that is the information that we currently have. That's correct.
21:24
Speaker 1: She's on a road trip, she's crossing the country. He's
21:26
Speaker 1: not following behind her. And I think, let me just
21:31
Speaker 1: go out on a limb here that he has been excluded.
21:33
Speaker 1: He was nowhere near her at the time she goes missing.
21:38
Speaker 1: So where does that leave me? Joining me is Andrew Stoltman,
21:44
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Chicago, a law professor at
21:47
Speaker 1: Northwestern University and co author of an incredible but waging
21:52
Speaker 1: War on Wall Street. My battles suing banks and broke
21:56
Speaker 1: wish firms will if you can take on a bank. Okay,
21:59
Speaker 1: I need to talk to you off camera, Andrew Stoltman,
22:03
Speaker 1: Let me talk to you about this case. When I immediately
22:06
Speaker 1: ask about the boyfriend, that's synonymous with every boyfriend, ex
22:13
Speaker 1: ex husband in every case ever. Because isn't it true
22:18
Speaker 1: that when someone goes missing or is harmed or killed,
22:22
Speaker 1: the first place you look is within the family, the
22:25
Speaker 1: nuclear family, and then you start moving out, including ex'es,
22:30
Speaker 1: long time exes, all the way back as far as
22:34
Speaker 1: you can go. Because random crimes don't happen as often
22:38
Speaker 1: as targeted crimes, in other words, by someone that knows
22:42
Speaker 1: you or think they know you.
22:44
Speaker 13: Nancy, you and I know that, but it's amazing how
22:47
Speaker 13: many times the boyfriend or the girlfriend who perpetrated.
22:50
Speaker 8: The crime doesn't know that.
22:51
Speaker 13: That is always the first person that the police would
22:54
Speaker 13: look at. And I think that might be one of
22:56
Speaker 13: the flaws in this case, and I think that might
22:58
Speaker 13: be one of the reasons why the police haven't solved
23:01
Speaker 13: this case yet. They've said from the very beginning that
23:04
Speaker 13: they don't think this case involves foul play, and that
23:08
Speaker 13: might be a little bit of a rush to judgment.
23:11
Speaker 13: And my concern is the police have that perception that
23:14
Speaker 13: no foul play was an issue, and their entire investigation
23:18
Speaker 13: has therefore been seen through that straw of no foul play.
23:22
Speaker 13: That might be a mistake. It might be a rush
23:25
Speaker 13: to judgment by the police.
23:27
Speaker 10: From a motel in Seligman, Arizona, Chelsea calls her parents
23:30
Speaker 10: and tells them she can't make it to Connecticut on
23:33
Speaker 10: time for the wedding. The trip is taking too long.
23:36
Speaker 10: She tells them she's going to camp out nearby for
23:39
Speaker 10: a couple of days and then head back home to
23:42
Speaker 10: San Diego. The next day, September twenty eight, Chelsea Grim
23:46
Speaker 10: leaves the motel and heads forty miles east to a
23:49
Speaker 10: war memorial cemetery in Williams, Arizona. Williams police are alerted
23:54
Speaker 10: to a suspicious vehicle, and when the officer checks, he
23:57
Speaker 10: finds Chelsea Grimm seated in her car crying. She tells
24:02
Speaker 10: the officer she gets emotional taking photos for a lost
24:05
Speaker 10: Soldier project and didn't want to drive while crying. The
24:09
Speaker 10: officer spends nearly nine minutes with Grim and asks if
24:13
Speaker 10: she has a hotel room for the night. She says
24:15
Speaker 10: she's going to camp, and the officer directs her to
24:19
Speaker 10: not camp in the city, but she can sleep at
24:22
Speaker 10: Love's truck stop nearby. He tells her she won't be
24:25
Speaker 10: bothered there.
24:26
Speaker 1: Straight back out to high profile lawyer and as a
24:29
Speaker 1: law professor of Northwestern University, Andrew Stoleman, I believe I
24:34
Speaker 1: heard you use my old co anchor, Johnny Cochran's phrase,
24:38
Speaker 1: and of course that's making me mad right there. But
24:42
Speaker 1: I believe you said there was a little bit of
24:44
Speaker 1: a rush to judgment. She was reported missing in October.
24:50
Speaker 1: That's not a rush. In fact, I feel like this
24:54
Speaker 1: padel Mark, Andrew, doctor Leslie, Justin and Zara are the
24:58
Speaker 1: only ones seem to feel any sense of urgency along
25:03
Speaker 1: with her parents. Why hasn't the Coconino County SHAREFFS issued
25:09
Speaker 1: a warrant, a search warrant for AT and T to
25:13
Speaker 1: hand over the cell phone beings. This isn't a rush
25:16
Speaker 1: to judgment. Yes, they were wrong at the get go
25:19
Speaker 1: saying there was no foul play. There is foul play.
25:23
Speaker 1: Something has happened to this girl. What rush to judgment
25:27
Speaker 1: are you talking about?
25:28
Speaker 13: Well, I think the perception was no crime was committed.
25:31
Speaker 13: But you see there were two shredded tires on her vehicle. Now,
25:35
Speaker 13: I've got a lot of flat tires over the years,
25:37
Speaker 13: but I've never had two at the same time.
25:39
Speaker 8: So these these are This is.
25:41
Speaker 13: A rural county with presumably rural police officers. How competent
25:46
Speaker 13: are they, how good are they? We don't know, but
25:48
Speaker 13: it sure seems like a rush to be well.
25:50
Speaker 1: Hold on just a moment another thing, Andrew Stultman, you
25:54
Speaker 1: may be a professor there at Northwestern University, but I
25:58
Speaker 1: am from rural Georgia, in the middle of nothing but
26:01
Speaker 1: pine trees and soybean fields, and I can tell you
26:04
Speaker 1: those sheriffs and cops are some of the most dedicated
26:07
Speaker 1: people I've ever seen. However, I do agree with you
26:10
Speaker 1: in the fact that they don't handle a lot of
26:13
Speaker 1: homicides or kidnaps, so their perception may be different from
26:19
Speaker 1: big city law enforcement that handles it every day. And
26:23
Speaker 1: you said something that really sticks in my mind, Mark
26:27
Speaker 1: Klass joining me. He has dedicated his life to helping
26:31
Speaker 1: fine missing people, help solve unsolved homicides after his daughter
26:35
Speaker 1: Polly was kidnapped and murdered. Mark, did you hear when
26:40
Speaker 1: Andrew Stolton said shredded. I don't know if he meant
26:43
Speaker 1: to say it, but he's right, shredded. It's not like
26:47
Speaker 1: you get a nail or a piece of glass in
26:50
Speaker 1: your tire and you have a slow leak or you
26:53
Speaker 1: have a flat two tires shredded, shredded? What does that
26:58
Speaker 1: mean to you, Mark, Well, I'll tell you.
27:01
Speaker 7: I'll tell you what everything means to me is that
27:04
Speaker 7: it looks to me like there's been an incompetent investigation.
27:08
Speaker 7: And if I were the young woman's parents, the first
27:12
Speaker 7: thing I would do, and I would do this immediately
27:14
Speaker 7: today this moment is contact the FBI and ask them
27:19
Speaker 7: to get involved in sight all of the things that
27:22
Speaker 7: we've been talking about, all of the reasons that this
27:26
Speaker 7: has not been handled well, all of the reasons that
27:29
Speaker 7: this is a critical moment for this young lady, and
27:33
Speaker 7: try to really get down to the bottom of it
27:35
Speaker 7: and get answers. That's exactly what I did in Paulice case.
27:39
Speaker 7: I contacted the FBI because I thought they have the resources,
27:44
Speaker 7: they have the knowledge, they have the manpower, they can
27:47
Speaker 7: move forward with this investigation in a way that locals
27:51
Speaker 7: cannot do. Plus they have the resources, So that is
27:55
Speaker 7: exactly where I would go with this. Right now, it
27:57
Speaker 7: just seems to me there are way too many red
28:00
Speaker 7: flags and way too many unanswered questions. Seven months down
28:04
Speaker 7: the line.
28:05
Speaker 1: You know Andrew Sualtman joining US high profile lawyer out
28:07
Speaker 1: of Chicago, professor Northwestern University and author Andrew I don't
28:13
Speaker 1: like the FEDS, and I was a FED for three years,
28:16
Speaker 1: but I can tell you this, the FBI, they know
28:20
Speaker 1: what they're doing. The US Marshall Service, yeah, I've got
28:23
Speaker 1: nothing on them. You see the FBI pick at the
28:26
Speaker 1: year trash in the backyard. You might as well go
28:28
Speaker 1: ahead and plead guilty. He's right, why not call in
28:32
Speaker 1: the FBI? She's clearly cross state boundaries. Not that we
28:36
Speaker 1: really need that, but why not?
28:39
Speaker 13: I don't know the answer that sometimes there's a jurisdictional
28:42
Speaker 13: war between local police officers in a rural.
28:44
Speaker 8: County like this and the FBI.
28:46
Speaker 13: And look, Nancy, I'm from Wisconsin, so I'm from rural
28:50
Speaker 13: a rural state. But I just don't think these police
28:53
Speaker 13: officers have much experience in this area with respect to
28:57
Speaker 13: potentially a murder investigation or potential miss in person investigation.
29:01
Speaker 8: I think they are in over their heads.
29:03
Speaker 9: Two days after talking to the police officer in Williams, Arizona,
29:06
Speaker 9: Chelsea Grim finds herself nineteen miles west of Williams in
29:09
Speaker 9: the town of ash Fork, Arizona. She has been camping
29:12
Speaker 9: out in her Ford Focus SUV. A local woodcutter sees
29:16
Speaker 9: Grim and says she does not seem in distress or
29:19
Speaker 9: in need of any help. It's September thirtieth. The woodcutter
29:22
Speaker 9: in ash Fork, Arizona is the last person to see
29:25
Speaker 9: Chelsea Gram.
29:26
Speaker 14: Chelsea Gram tells her parents she might not have good
29:28
Speaker 14: cell service while she's out camping, but when they don't
29:31
Speaker 14: hear from her for several days, her parents reporter missing
29:34
Speaker 14: on October fourth. The next day, Chelsea Gram's twenty nineteen
29:37
Speaker 14: white Ford Focus SUV is found abandoned on the side
29:40
Speaker 14: of the road with two flat tires by hunters in
29:43
Speaker 14: the middle of Forest Service Road six in the Kaibud
29:46
Speaker 14: National Forest, northeast of ash Fork, Arizona. Inside the locked vehicle,
29:51
Speaker 14: all of Chelsea Gram's personal belongings, such as her wallet,
29:55
Speaker 14: driver's license, clothes and sleeping bag, and her bearded dragon
29:58
Speaker 14: rows are gone. Police say there's no evidence of foul play.
30:09
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace two justin Yentiz joining us
30:17
Speaker 1: respected and private investigator working with the Grim family. You
30:21
Speaker 1: were responding to, Andrew correct, What were you saying?
30:25
Speaker 8: I was? I was.
30:25
Speaker 2: There was some discussion about the FBI, and when we
30:28
Speaker 2: first got this case, I started going through the original
30:32
Speaker 2: information that had come in from tips and leads from
30:35
Speaker 2: the folks out there that had seen this issue on
30:38
Speaker 2: the news. There were some ransom texts and messages that
30:44
Speaker 2: had come in, and that's what I felt was our
30:48
Speaker 2: best chance of establishing probable cause to get the FBI
30:51
Speaker 2: involved to get some federal court orders or search warrants
30:54
Speaker 2: or whatever it would take to go after AT and
30:57
Speaker 2: T to get their self on the Celtewer data. When
31:01
Speaker 2: the FBI, so, I'll back up their Cocinino, excuse me,
31:08
Speaker 2: So I wrote a search war an affidavit for that
31:13
Speaker 2: using the ransom and the kidnapping as my crime. Presented
31:17
Speaker 2: that to Cocanino, and then found out that they had
31:20
Speaker 2: had a conversation with the FBI previously and they had
31:26
Speaker 2: reviewed the ransom requests that had come in and determined,
31:32
Speaker 2: based on their training and experience, that these ransom requests
31:37
Speaker 2: were bogus, so they did not feel that they were
31:43
Speaker 2: of value or indicative of a crime occurring. That information
31:49
Speaker 2: then went back to Cocanino, and so the sheriff's office
31:53
Speaker 2: felt that when disclosing the fact that the FBI had
31:57
Speaker 2: made a determination on the validity or lack thereof of
32:01
Speaker 2: these ransom requests, that that would have to be turned
32:03
Speaker 2: over to a judge in an affidavit, and that we
32:06
Speaker 2: did not based on the FBI's findings, we did not
32:10
Speaker 2: have probable cause to seek search warrants based on a
32:13
Speaker 2: kidnapping belief or suspicion.
32:16
Speaker 1: I got a question for you. Tell me about the
32:19
Speaker 1: ransom notes.
32:20
Speaker 2: There were a couple of messages that came in I
32:23
Speaker 2: believe on Facebook or WhatsApp to one of the tip
32:27
Speaker 2: lines and demanded money. And that's about what. That's about
32:33
Speaker 2: what I know about them. They were sent off to
32:36
Speaker 2: the FBI. We are not in possession of any reports
32:41
Speaker 2: from the FBI.
32:42
Speaker 1: Well, what did this What did the ransom requests say?
32:45
Speaker 2: Something along the lines of requesting money for her safe return.
32:49
Speaker 1: So asking for money for her safe return, and that
32:53
Speaker 1: was that was directed to just basically a tip line
32:58
Speaker 1: or an online forum.
33:00
Speaker 2: It came in on one of our sources via I
33:03
Speaker 2: believe a Facebook message or what's that message?
33:06
Speaker 1: Was there anything in the ransom request to indicate special
33:10
Speaker 1: knowledge about Chelsea, like where she was, the name of
33:14
Speaker 1: her bearded dragon, something that only the kidnapper would know?
33:19
Speaker 2: There was, and perhaps that was part of the determination
33:23
Speaker 2: that the FBI made to invalidate the request. Getting information
33:28
Speaker 2: out of an ongoing investigation from the feds's is next
33:31
Speaker 2: to impossible.
33:32
Speaker 1: To Zarah Barker, joining US investigative reporter Fox five San Diego,
33:37
Speaker 1: so Chelsea tells her parents she may not have good
33:40
Speaker 1: sales service while she's camping. They don't hear from her
33:44
Speaker 1: for several days, and her parents report her missing October four.
33:51
Speaker 1: I want to get back to the shredded tires. If
33:54
Speaker 1: anyone can tell me about the shredded tires. I want
33:58
Speaker 1: to hear about that because that sounds intentional, like they
34:02
Speaker 1: were cut with a knife.
34:05
Speaker 11: Yeah, it definitely does.
34:07
Speaker 6: And one thing I want to point out too is
34:09
Speaker 6: obviously those tires were flat or shredded, whatever the case was,
34:13
Speaker 6: that vehicle was not drivable, so at that time she
34:16
Speaker 6: had no choice but to leave that car. What we
34:19
Speaker 6: don't know is where did she go and did she
34:21
Speaker 6: go with somebody? I mean, Ashbork, Arizona, where her vehicle
34:25
Speaker 6: was found, was not a very populated area. There's less
34:28
Speaker 6: than five hundred people that live in ash Fork, Arizona.
34:32
Speaker 11: You wouldn't seem to think.
34:33
Speaker 6: At this time that they all know who Chelsea Grimm
34:36
Speaker 6: is and have been keeping an eye out for her.
34:38
Speaker 6: Somebody there has to know something because she left her
34:41
Speaker 6: vehicle on her own volition.
34:43
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the shredded tires. To me, that suggests
34:48
Speaker 1: that it was done on purpose, not that she just
34:50
Speaker 1: ran over a knife. Excuse me, ran over a nail
34:55
Speaker 1: or a piece of glass, and as Andrew Stoltman pointed out,
35:00
Speaker 1: one but two of them, the car left basically undrivable.
35:05
Speaker 1: But we do know this. Two days after talking to
35:08
Speaker 1: the police officer in Williams, Arizona, she's nineteen miles west
35:13
Speaker 1: in ash Fork, Arizona, camping in her ford SUV. A
35:19
Speaker 1: local woodcutter sees Chelsea and speaks to her. Question to you, Zarah,
35:27
Speaker 1: what does she say to the timber guy?
35:30
Speaker 6: That conversation has not been made public yet, and we're
35:33
Speaker 6: not even sure exactly what police have released from that.
35:37
Speaker 6: So Coconino County are the ones who are investigating that
35:40
Speaker 6: part of this situation, and that conversation.
35:43
Speaker 11: Has not been made public yet to our knowledge, what.
35:45
Speaker 1: Do we know about it? Justin Yantes, Well, I want.
35:49
Speaker 2: To be cautious in what information I do put out
35:52
Speaker 2: there right now. There are a lot of folks that
35:54
Speaker 2: have been working on this case from around the country,
35:58
Speaker 2: both as a part of our team and also an
36:03
Speaker 2: army of volunteer investigators that are providing tips, and I'm
36:07
Speaker 2: somewhat hesitant to put out information that hasn't been already
36:11
Speaker 2: disclosed to the community.
36:14
Speaker 1: I'm trying to help find Chelsea. Did she reveal anything
36:17
Speaker 1: in the conversation that would be any help.
36:20
Speaker 2: That I've been made aware of? But I will provide
36:25
Speaker 2: that with a caveat that we do have several investigative
36:28
Speaker 2: teams working on this matter, and the direct interviews have
36:33
Speaker 2: been handled by some other folks that are in our network.
36:37
Speaker 9: The area where Chelsea Grimm's locked suv is found is
36:40
Speaker 9: an area popular with hunters and loggers. An extensive search
36:44
Speaker 9: was conducted of a three mile radius around where her.
36:46
Speaker 1: Car was discovered.
36:48
Speaker 9: Her family believes that, due to the intensity of the search,
36:50
Speaker 9: if Chelsea was in the area, she would have been found.
36:53
Speaker 9: Hunters and loggers in the area also strongly believe she
36:56
Speaker 9: is not in the area. Chelsea Grimm's family hires a
36:59
Speaker 9: private investor, Kelly Townsend, to help with the case.
37:02
Speaker 1: Guys, we have an all star panel to make sense
37:04
Speaker 1: of what we know right now. But I'd like to
37:06
Speaker 1: point out that another young woman, a beautiful young woman,
37:11
Speaker 1: Shana Feinneman, also goes missing very close to where Chelsea
37:18
Speaker 1: goes missing. Now, why is that two young women and
37:24
Speaker 1: the same general area. The similarities between the two cases
37:29
Speaker 1: are amazing. Two women missing in the Arizona area, both
37:37
Speaker 1: nature lovers, both seemingly disappear, leaving their vehicle behind, leaving
37:44
Speaker 1: their pets, one leaving their pet behind. I'm just trying
37:47
Speaker 1: to figure out what, if any, is the connection between
37:52
Speaker 1: Shana Feynman and Chelsea Grimm. Chelsea's lot SUV found in
37:58
Speaker 1: a very popular area, an area popular for hunters. Shana
38:04
Speaker 1: goes missing in a very wooded and rural area as well.
38:08
Speaker 1: Why and have authorities thought of linking the two? Andrew
38:13
Speaker 1: Stoltman joining US high profile lawyer out of Chicago. What
38:17
Speaker 1: do you make of it? Andrew?
38:18
Speaker 8: That's outrageous.
38:19
Speaker 13: That's a data point that I wasn't aware of. I
38:21
Speaker 13: think these police need to speak to all five hundred
38:24
Speaker 13: people in this rural community and operate off the assumption
38:27
Speaker 13: that there's a pattern, that there might be there might
38:30
Speaker 13: be a serial killer, there might be somebody out there
38:33
Speaker 13: who has abducted both of these women. And when they
38:37
Speaker 13: rush to judgment and they say, gee, we don't think
38:39
Speaker 13: it's foul play, they should be talking all five hundred
38:42
Speaker 13: of these people that are anywhere near this car to
38:45
Speaker 13: get to the bottom to see if we have a
38:47
Speaker 13: serial killer or a pattern with respect to these two disappearances.
38:51
Speaker 1: Mark Class jump in what do you believe that the
38:56
Speaker 1: parents of Chelsea need to be doing right now?
39:00
Speaker 8: And I agree with.
39:01
Speaker 7: What Andrews said one hundred percent. There is nothing but
39:04
Speaker 7: unanswered questions here. What's going on with the tires? The
39:08
Speaker 7: police aren't saying anything. Was they would Cutter investigated. He
39:12
Speaker 7: was the last person that saw her. We know nothing
39:15
Speaker 7: about that. It's just like everything went down into a
39:18
Speaker 7: rat hole. I think the parents need to get over
39:22
Speaker 7: need to get over their shyness and contact the FBI
39:26
Speaker 7: and demand that they get involved, because it totally seems
39:30
Speaker 7: like this investigation is in the hands of incompetence. Otherwise
39:34
Speaker 7: the sheriff would be on this program right now explaining
39:37
Speaker 7: himself and I just don't see him here.
39:40
Speaker 1: Yeah. Isn't that unusual because typically LA law enforcement come
39:46
Speaker 1: on the air with us to help publicize and garner
39:49
Speaker 1: retention from missing people. That's not happening here. Why as
39:54
Speaker 1: far as the parents go, what do you believe they
39:57
Speaker 1: need to be doing? Mark Class? Because you're the goalt, well,
40:00
Speaker 1: they have to be proactive.
40:01
Speaker 8: I mean it's their daughter.
40:03
Speaker 7: She needs them now more than she's ever needed them before.
40:06
Speaker 7: And to just say well, I'm too shy, I can't
40:09
Speaker 7: do this, I can't do that.
40:10
Speaker 8: You have to do it.
40:12
Speaker 7: You have to find the strength. You have to go
40:15
Speaker 7: before the cameras. You have to contact the FBI and
40:18
Speaker 7: demand that they get involved in a case that's gone
40:21
Speaker 7: absolutely nowhere in seven months, because without that advocacy, they
40:25
Speaker 7: might never have the answers that they so desperately seek.
40:29
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the
40:32
Speaker 1: disappearance of Chelsea Graham, call nine two eight seven seven
40:38
Speaker 1: four four five two three Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,