Latest / Math Therapy / Refresher: Pi Day in Prison

Transcript

Refresher: Pi Day in Prison · Math Therapy

0:00
Vanessa Vakharia: Hello and happy Pi Day everyone.
0:02
Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, this is so exciting.
0:03
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so if you're listening and you're like, I'm sorry, what?
0:05
Vanessa Vakharia: Happy Pi Day?
0:06
Vanessa Vakharia: Let me explain.
0:07
Vanessa Vakharia: Pi Day is March 14th because it's the third month and the 14th day, so 3.14, which are like the approximate digits of Pi.
0:15
Vanessa Vakharia: So it's a very exciting time.
0:17
Vanessa Vakharia: It is more important to me than my birthday, I like to celebrate every year.
0:20
Vanessa Vakharia: You should be baking a pie right now.
0:22
Vanessa Vakharia: You do you.
0:23
Vanessa Vakharia: But this year I figured we would celebrate by re airing our most epic Pi Day episode yet.
0:29
Vanessa Vakharia: So if you've been following the podcast for a while you'll know that a few seasons ago we interviewed Christopher Havens who was an inmate in prison, there for committing murder, but discovered math and it totally changed his life.
0:41
Vanessa Vakharia: It was an incredibly moving episode and last year he invited the entire Math Therapy team to go to prison and do math with the inmates.
0:49
Vanessa Vakharia: It was the most incredible experience and we recorded an episode based on it, but we weren't able to air it until like way after Pi Day last year.
0:57
Vanessa Vakharia: So this year we figured we're going to re air it today on Pi Day so you can listen to it again if you already have or if you're a new follower of the podcast you can listen to it for the first time.
1:06
Vanessa Vakharia: Whatever you're doing, whether that made sense or not, I don't know.
1:09
Vanessa Vakharia: The point is happy Pi Day.
1:10
Vanessa Vakharia: Listen to this episode, it's amazing, go eat a pie, yes, pizza counts.
1:14
Vanessa Vakharia: Yay 3.14.
1:16
Vanessa Vakharia: By the way, one more quick thing.
1:17
Vanessa Vakharia: Season six of Math Therapy is officially dropping in two weeks on March 28th.
1:26
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay guys, today we maybe have one of the craziest episodes ever, like no hyperbole, I swear.
1:32
Vanessa Vakharia: Let me start by saying that the Math Therapy team went to prison for PI Day.
1:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Like we crossed the border into Michigan and went to prison for Pi Day.
1:42
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
1:42
Vanessa Vakharia: I just want to like, get that out of the way, but okay, let me back up.
1:46
Vanessa Vakharia: Some of you might remember season 3, episode 10, when I interviewed Christopher Havens, a convicted felon, who's currently serving a 25 year murder sentence.
1:55
Vanessa Vakharia: Now, like the story is crazy.
1:57
Vanessa Vakharia: You have to listen to the episode, but in short, Christopher Havens was in the middle of a 25 year sentence, he's in solitary confinement, and somebody passes an envelope of math puzzles under his door.
2:08
Vanessa Vakharia: It forever changes his life, and he is now in the process of rehabilitating with math, and he has started the Prison Mathematics Project, which is an organization aimed at helping inmates across the US rehabilitate with math.
2:21
Vanessa Vakharia: Obviously listen to the whole episode because there was way more to it, but that's a short summary.
2:26
Vanessa Vakharia: So Christopher and I have kept in touch over the past few years, and it has been a goal of his to actually bring Prison Math Project to inmates, IRL one day.
2:35
Vanessa Vakharia: But the barriers have been crazy.
2:36
Vanessa Vakharia: I mean like first there was COVID, but additionally, we learned that it's shockingly hard to get most correctional facilities to actually agree to allowing the prisoners to receive any more than the bare minimum when it comes to education.
2:47
Vanessa Vakharia: But this year the stars aligned and one prison called the Bellamy Creek Correctional Facility in Michigan, agreed to let Prison Math Project host a Pi Day celebration for their inmates.
2:58
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
2:58
Vanessa Vakharia: So you're probably like, that's great, but how did you possibly got involved and that's a great question that I ask myself every day, no joke.
3:05
Vanessa Vakharia: And the simple answer is Christopher asked me to host it.
3:09
Vanessa Vakharia: Trust me, when I got the call, I was simultaneously like, absolutely yes hell no, but I knew deep down, this was something I had to say yes to, no matter how scary or new or weird it sounded.
3:19
Vanessa Vakharia: And I knew I wasn't going to do it alone, obviously.
3:22
Vanessa Vakharia: The second I got off the phone with Christopher, I begged Sabina and David, AKA the O G Math Therapy team, to agree to this crazy adventure with me, and they said, yes.
3:32
Vanessa Vakharia: But like truthfully, I think David said yes, just because he was terrified of what would happen if he said no, and I was left to fend for myself, like cruising on into a prison, wearing full velvet with no one there to chaperone me.
3:42
Vanessa Vakharia: But guys, I'm so glad we all just trusted our intuition because we literally had a life-changing experience I know that none of us will ever forget.
3:52
Vanessa Vakharia: So luckily for us Sabina, AKA the true reporter she is, brought along a handheld recorder, and we documented the before and after of our time on the inside, as they say in the movies.
4:04
Vanessa Vakharia: I'm going to play you guys what we recorded and then I'm going to pipe in here and there to fill in the blanks.
4:09
Vanessa Vakharia: So what you're about to hear first is a recording of us in the car on a six hour drive from Toronto to Michigan, headed to Bellamy Creek Correctional Facility on March 13th, the day before Pi Day.
4:20
Sabina Wex: Okay.
4:21
Sabina Wex: We just wanna go on the record about how we're feeling about going to jail right now.
4:26
Sabina Wex: David, do you wanna explain the context?
4:27
Sabina Wex: I feel like you're good at it.
4:28
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
4:29
Vanessa Vakharia: Where are we off
4:29
David Kochberg: Now we are suddenly representatives of the Prison Math Project.
4:34
Vanessa Vakharia: That's correct.
4:35
David Kochberg: Having a year or two ago conducted an interview where Vanessa spoke to inmate Christopher Havens who rehabilitated himself with mathematics.
4:45
David Kochberg: And he invited Vanessa to MC tomorrow's Pi Day celebrations at Bellamy Correctional Facility in Michigan.
4:54
Vanessa Vakharia: What's the vibe fam?
4:56
Sabina Wex: How are we feeling in general?
4:57
Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm feeling, I will say at the beginning, like the weeks leading up, I was like feeling kind of stressed and nervous about it.
5:03
Vanessa Vakharia: I was kind of like, oh my God.
5:05
Vanessa Vakharia: I have no idea what I'm doing and I still feel that way.
5:06
Vanessa Vakharia: I have no clue what I'm doing.
5:08
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are they gonna hate me?
5:10
Vanessa Vakharia: Or am I gonna say something offensive?
5:11
Vanessa Vakharia: Like that kind of thing.
5:12
Sabina Wex: Mm-hmm.
5:13
Vanessa Vakharia: But I have to say, as I've been speaking more and more to Christopher and he's kind of just been like, listen, no matter what happens, it's going to be great.
5:20
Vanessa Vakharia: no matter what, we're on an adventure.
5:21
Vanessa Vakharia: We've never done this.
5:23
Vanessa Vakharia: So that's very cool.
5:24
Vanessa Vakharia: Number two, regardless of how it turns out, we are well intentioned and we've done as much research as possible and asked as many questions as possible, and we're, this is what the podcast is for, this is like why we recorded the episode.
5:34
Vanessa Vakharia: And also I just feel good that you guys are here.
5:37
Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I mean?
5:37
Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm, I'm kind of actually now in the phase of like, yep, who knows what's gonna happen, there's only so much you can organize when you're dealing with prison, like there's only so much you can organize and know beforehand.
5:48
Vanessa Vakharia: I'm kind of like excited for the adventure.
5:50
Vanessa Vakharia: What about you?
5:51
Sabina Wex: Yeah, I agree.
5:52
Sabina Wex: Leading up when you called me I was like, this sounds like a shit show, this is gonna be so bad.
5:56
Sabina Wex: We're gonna drive eight hours for no fucking reason.
5:58
Sabina Wex: Like we're gonna be in there for literally 30 minutes,
6:00
Vanessa Vakharia: Which still might happen.
6:02
Sabina Wex: It still could happen.
6:03
Sabina Wex: But now I'm like, it's just really weird.
6:05
Sabina Wex: And honestly, I'm very interested to see what happens.
6:08
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
6:09
Sabina Wex: And I do, I do have a good feeling about it.
6:11
Sabina Wex: And like, I think it's gonna be like, we're so nervous.
6:13
Sabina Wex: We keep being like, we have stuff printed out for the border guards in case they ask, we are so prepared for the prison guards when they like need to take stuff from us, but I feel like they're just gonna be like, come on in.
6:24
Sabina Wex: Like, I could be totally wrong.
6:26
Sabina Wex: I've never been to a prison before in my life.
6:28
Vanessa Vakharia: Same
6:29
Sabina Wex: Or a jail or anything.
6:30
Vanessa Vakharia: And we're going to an American.
6:31
Vanessa Vakharia: You have?
6:32
David Kochberg: No, I don't think I have.
6:33
Sabina Wex: None of us have been to prison.
6:34
Sabina Wex: So it's definitely a new experience.
6:35
Sabina Wex: And like you said, American prisons, like there's all this baggage.
6:38
Sabina Wex: I really don't know what to expect and I don't think we could really prepare anymore.
6:42
Sabina Wex: Like I think we just have to go.
6:43
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
6:44
Sabina Wex: And just act like our normal selves.
6:46
Vanessa Vakharia: Which is hard because we like also, I will say I did have a full dream last night that we went to the prison, but it was like our band was playing and there were all these people there and Christopher was like, oh, you don't need a mic.
6:56
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, how's anyone gonna hear me?
6:57
Vanessa Vakharia: There's hundreds of people.
6:58
Vanessa Vakharia: And then I also said to both of you, I was like, I was really scared someone was gonna put me like in the hole cause that's what you hear about always.
7:03
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, if you don't see me in 10 minutes, like come look for me.
7:06
Vanessa Vakharia: But it wasn't like a scary dream actually, but like I did have a whole dream about it.
7:11
David Kochberg: So you dreamt that during a show you got placed in solitary confinement?
7:14
Vanessa Vakharia: No, but like I didn't, but I was scared I was going to, and I like told you
7:17
David Kochberg: Because your performance wasn't good enough?
7:20
Vanessa Vakharia: No, I,
7:21
David Kochberg: Because you committed a crime during the show?
7:23
Vanessa Vakharia: Just the concept of the hole, like when I was talking to Christopher on the phone, yeah, yesterday he was like,
7:28
David Kochberg: He does keeps saying, he does keep referring to it as the hole
7:31
Vanessa Vakharia: Like he was talking about, he was talking about this guy, Travis Cunningham, that he wanted that apparently he is gonna be there.
7:36
Vanessa Vakharia: And he was like, he was like, yeah, he's actually really taken on this role and he's like doing all this math stuff on his own.
7:42
Vanessa Vakharia: And we couldn't get in touch with him for two years because of like all of the red tape of the prison system and how hard it is to get in touch with inmates.
7:49
Vanessa Vakharia: And he was like, and their mail wasn't working and he was like, and for a while I thought maybe he was in the hole.
7:53
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, wait.
7:54
Vanessa Vakharia: I thought that was just in movies, like fucking Murder in the First with Kevin Bacon.
7:58
Vanessa Vakharia: Like that's actually so scary.
8:00
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
8:00
Vanessa Vakharia: That people get put in solitary confinement.
8:02
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I thought it actually really creeps me out.
8:04
David Kochberg: Yeah, there's a, I think a lot of controversy around that.
8:07
David Kochberg: I mean, this is a, a much broader conversation, but yeah, if the whole point of a corrections facility is to help rehabilitate prisoners, but how much actual rehabilitation goes on.
8:18
David Kochberg: But that's what's cool about being involved in an, an event like this.
8:22
David Kochberg: And that's what's cool about what Christopher does with this project, is that it is proactively trying to do something to help rehabilitation.
8:31
David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
8:31
David Kochberg: So that's why it is cool to be involved and like make this trek.
8:34
Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like we're gonna, I'm nervous that I'm gonna get really upset when I like, see how little they're allowed to do.
8:41
Vanessa Vakharia: Like Christopher's always talking about how it's so hard to actually mobilize this thing because, so the reason we're going to Bellamy by the way, is not because he's there.
8:49
Vanessa Vakharia: It's because it's one of the few prisons in the entire system that will allow educational work to take place, which is actually really upsetting.
8:57
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's not allowed to do this in his prison.
9:00
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
9:01
Sabina Wex: I'm also worried about being like, I'm deeply upset by the state of this.
9:06
David Kochberg: Well, I don't think we should be getting too emotionally invested.
9:10
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, but how do you not, it's like when you see a homeless person, like, I get upset right away.
9:14
David Kochberg: Yeah.
9:14
David Kochberg: I'm not saying you shouldn't care, like we're going because we care, but I think we don't know anything about any of, these people, the prisoners that we are going to meet.
9:23
Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
9:23
David Kochberg: And you can't have the context on all of them.
9:27
David Kochberg: who knows what they've done and how they've ended up in prison, and that's not really our place to be figuring that out.
9:36
Sabina Wex: Yeah, I agree.
9:36
Sabina Wex: None of us are gonna be like, what did you do?
9:38
Sabina Wex: Like that's not the conversation we're having.
9:40
Sabina Wex: Okay.
9:41
Sabina Wex: Do we have anything else we wanna put on before we get going?
9:44
Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, the best thing we can do is just get comfortable with uncertainty at this point.
9:48
David Kochberg: Yeah.
9:49
David Kochberg: It's just an interesting learning experience.
9:51
David Kochberg: And in terms of the actual prisoners there, likely, they have very boring, regimented lives, I mean, Christopher was saying like, this kind of thing doesn't happen that much.
10:03
David Kochberg: They don't get right visitors or speakers ever, if at all, and not often.
10:08
David Kochberg: So I'm just looking at it as, well, I mean, you're gonna do all the talking there, but you
10:14
Vanessa Vakharia: Feel free to pipe in.
10:15
David Kochberg: Well, we'll participate, but like you are the host.
10:17
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
10:17
David Kochberg: Like you're the MC.
10:18
David Kochberg: We're here as part of the team.
10:20
Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
10:20
David Kochberg: But yeah, you're the whole point of rehabilitation or of this project, the Prison Math Project, is to humanize prisoners and yeah, we don't have to or want to know why they're in prison, but they're in prison.
10:33
David Kochberg: And the whole point is to not just give up on people because they've done something like they made a mistake earlier in their lives.
10:42
David Kochberg: And as far as we need to analyze it in advance, it's just we're doing something to help brighten their pi day and give them something a little different in their lives and maybe be a tiny part in giving them a bit of hope.
10:57
David Kochberg: And if they're showing up to this event, then they're probably interested in math, so you're just playing a part in facilitating that interest level and just a tiny little thing that can hopefully help in their rehabilitation journey.
11:09
David Kochberg: But yeah, otherwise there is no way to predict what it's gonna be like.
11:13
David Kochberg: Which is cool for us, like that's just an interesting experience that we otherwise would never have had.
11:19
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
11:19
Vanessa Vakharia: The thing I'm most scared about actually is just how early it is.
11:23
David Kochberg: But you're a relatively early bird.
11:25
Vanessa Vakharia: No, but like, it's like we have to be there at like 7:15 in the morning, like that's early.
11:28
Sabina Wex: Mm-hmm.
11:29
David Kochberg: Yeah.
11:29
David Kochberg: I'm terrified about that part.
11:30
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
11:31
David Kochberg: But I feel like I'll be, so, I'll be so tired, that then I will be, I'll be too tired to be like stressed, I guess so.
11:39
Sabina Wex: Oh, that's a, that's a good idea.
11:39
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, that's a good point.
11:40
Vanessa Vakharia: And also this event is two and a half hours.
11:42
Vanessa Vakharia: It's so quick, like, I'm kind of nervous it's gonna go by too fast.
11:46
Sabina Wex: It's okay.
11:47
Sabina Wex: We'll do some more debriefs.
11:48
Sabina Wex: We'll do, this is great.
11:50
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
11:50
Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
11:51
Vanessa Vakharia: It's so crazy to listen back to that now, and to think of how young and innocent we were when we're walking through those prison doors.
11:58
Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, like I'm half joking, but I'm half serious.
12:01
Vanessa Vakharia: Before I tell you guys what actually happened.
12:02
Vanessa Vakharia: I need to clarify by the way that the border guard did not just let us cruise right into Michigan as Sabina suggested.
12:09
Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, I get so nervous every time I crossed the border, like, I don't know if it's just me, but you're just like, oh my God, they're not going to let me in, whatever.
12:16
Vanessa Vakharia: And especially on this occasion, because I was like, our story is insane.
12:20
Vanessa Vakharia: So we're about to go in and the guard's like, why are you going?
12:22
Vanessa Vakharia: And we're like, well, it's actually PI day tomorrow, like March 14th.
12:26
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's like, k, whatever.
12:27
Vanessa Vakharia: And we're like, we're going to teach math to inmates in a prison.
12:30
Vanessa Vakharia: And he, he goes,"why?".
12:33
Vanessa Vakharia: And we're like, because we, like, we, it's PI day, and we're volunteering to teach math to the inmates.
12:39
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's like, well, why you?
12:40
Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm like, oh, like I'm a math teacher, this and that.
12:42
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's like, are you making money?
12:44
Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm like, oh no.
12:45
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's like,"so then why".
12:51
Vanessa Vakharia: Have you heard of volunteering?
12:52
Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, he finally, like, I was like, dude, listen to how cool this is.
12:56
Vanessa Vakharia: And then I told them all about Christopher Havens and he like, I don't know, he like raised an eyebrow, he seemed kind of interested.
13:00
Vanessa Vakharia: And then he was like, k, whatever, go in.
13:02
Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways.
13:03
Vanessa Vakharia: Now that we've clarified that, here's what PI day in prison actually looked like.
13:07
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
13:08
Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm just gonna explain to you guys what happened.
13:10
Vanessa Vakharia: So, first of all, we got there March 13th, we got into Michigan and we're, we need to be at the prison the next day at 7:00 AM.
13:16
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
13:17
Vanessa Vakharia: Basically the inmates only have two and a half hours.
13:19
Vanessa Vakharia: the event starts at eight and ends at 10:20, so they can be back in their cells for count at 10 30.
13:23
Vanessa Vakharia: So we got there on March 13th, like in the evening and we're meeting this guy, Ben, who works at Prison Math Project.
13:29
Vanessa Vakharia: He flew in from Atlanta, he's like a 22 year old math major, and he's the PMP representative.
13:35
Vanessa Vakharia: So he's coming with us.
13:36
Vanessa Vakharia: So his role is to do actual math with the inmates.
13:39
Vanessa Vakharia: My role is like to pep talk them and MC, we have a couple other speakers which I'll tell you about.
13:44
Vanessa Vakharia: And then Ben's role is to do the math.
13:46
Vanessa Vakharia: So we meet Ben and we go out for dinner, and we're like so Ben, what are you planning on talking to the inmates about?
13:53
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's like,"have you guys heard of Hilbert's hotel?" And we're like, no, what is it?
13:56
Vanessa Vakharia: Guys?
13:57
Vanessa Vakharia: I'm actually gonna post video of him trying to explain it to us on Instagram, just go watch it.
14:02
Vanessa Vakharia: He starts explaining this concept of like infinity and like, Like I think the first thing starts with like, let's pretend you have a hotel with infinite rooms.
14:11
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
14:11
Vanessa Vakharia: You have infinite rooms and they're all full.
14:13
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
14:14
Vanessa Vakharia: All the rooms are full there's infinite rooms and a guest shows up to the hotel.
14:18
Vanessa Vakharia: How can you make room for them?
14:20
Vanessa Vakharia: Very fascinating, but like, we had no fucking clue what he was talking about and he's like this and that and the other thing, and like, he's, he, he has no paper and Sabina is losing her mind.
14:29
Vanessa Vakharia: She's just like, what are you talking about?
14:31
Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, this will come in handy later.
14:33
Vanessa Vakharia: So just remember that we were all just like, what are you talking about, this is insane, like good luck with the inmates tomorrow..
14:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
14:38
Vanessa Vakharia: We leave dinner.
14:39
Vanessa Vakharia: We're all excited for the next day.
14:41
Vanessa Vakharia: Me and David are like, we need to get more pies because we were bringing pies and coffee to the inmates.
14:45
Vanessa Vakharia: We go to a local grocery store and we're stocking up on like 20 pies.
14:48
Vanessa Vakharia: And the cashier is like, why is everyone buying pies today?
14:52
Vanessa Vakharia: And then I'm like, oh my God, wait, everyone's buying pies?
14:54
Vanessa Vakharia: And she's like, yeah, mostly teachers.
14:56
Vanessa Vakharia: So then we tell her it's pi day.
14:57
Vanessa Vakharia: We're so excited.
14:58
Vanessa Vakharia: I was just like, oh, I love that this whole town of like Ionia, Michigan is like getting into PI day.
15:03
Vanessa Vakharia: Fine whatever.
15:04
Vanessa Vakharia: Got up the next morning, we go to Starbucks to get like all of these coffees, we have like four giant carafes of coffees and we're on our way.
15:11
Vanessa Vakharia: So we're driving and like, keep in mind, it's so early in the morning it's kind of dark.
15:15
Vanessa Vakharia: And I want you guys to imagine this because I think I still have this image in my head of how alarming it was that like we're driving and it's like a small town and we're like, oh, I wonder where the prison is.
15:24
Vanessa Vakharia: And then all of a sudden.
15:26
Vanessa Vakharia: Like imagine, like Jurassic park theme song, the music and all of a sudden it's like kilometers of barbed wire, but like that razor wire, like just silver glaring, razor wire, and like the biggest, like hundreds of giant floodlights.
15:44
Vanessa Vakharia: And we were just like, we're here.
15:46
Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like sprawling.
15:48
Vanessa Vakharia: There's like all these buildings, but like, it was just so alarming to see that silver razor wire, so much of it, so much of it.
15:53
Vanessa Vakharia: And these giant, giant, giant floodlight.
15:56
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
15:57
Vanessa Vakharia: So we got there and like we got checked in, we meet Dave Dirks.
16:00
Vanessa Vakharia: Who's our amazing facilitator there.
16:02
Vanessa Vakharia: We get checked by security, I'm sure you all want to know what thoughts like, and they did check under our tongues.
16:08
Vanessa Vakharia: So we had to like open our mouths, look under our tongues and we had to take our socks off.
16:11
Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and we weren't allowed to bring anything with us.
16:13
Vanessa Vakharia: Like not even a pencil, not even a key.
16:15
Vanessa Vakharia: I was allowed to bring in my chapstick, thank God.
16:18
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
16:18
Vanessa Vakharia: We go in and we walk into basically what looked like a high school auditorium.
16:23
Vanessa Vakharia: And there are the inmates and like they're seated at tables, like in rows as though it's a classroom and they're just sitting there silently.
16:32
Vanessa Vakharia: Um, well-behaved seems like a really weird word to say, but that's like the first thing that struck me, like, I don't know what I expected, but probably like something from Orange is the New Black, because what else do I have to go on?
16:42
Vanessa Vakharia: And they were just sitting there smiling.
16:44
Vanessa Vakharia: We went in, we put our stuff down.
16:46
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, I guess we'll start.
16:50
Vanessa Vakharia: And basically I just, I don't, I Can't remember what I did, but I do remember I started by just being like, I just want everyone to know that I'm really nervous right now.
16:58
Vanessa Vakharia: And they all laughed and I was like, okay, they're laughing at my jokes, this is a good sign, like everything's going to be okay because that's how I usually feel when someone laughs at a joke of mine.
17:07
Vanessa Vakharia: And so we started, we started and basically the structure of the day was I gave pep talks, I talked about growth mindset, I'll tell you more about that later, but I basically just talked about why we were there.
17:18
Vanessa Vakharia: I gave mathematical pep talks, I talked about math anxiety and then it was interspersed with video chats from Gary Gordon and Sunil Singh.
17:25
Vanessa Vakharia: And then Ben, Ben Jeffers, our pal, taught them math.
17:29
Vanessa Vakharia: So I'll talk about, a bit more about the math he did, but he did like Hilbert's hotel, the infinity thing, and then he did another math problem with them.
17:36
Vanessa Vakharia: And we actually did math.
17:37
Vanessa Vakharia: We ate pie, we drank coffee and then it was done.
17:41
Vanessa Vakharia: And then after we were finished the event at 10 30 in the morning, we got a bit of a tour, we learned some stuff about Bellamy Correctional and we left, immediately, got in the car, hit the record button because we wanted to capture exactly how we felt the second we left.
17:56
Sabina Wex: Okay.
17:57
Sabina Wex: We just came from the prison, Bellamy Correctional Facility.
18:00
Sabina Wex: We're leaving the parking lot at the moment.
18:02
Sabina Wex: I see a watch tower.
18:03
Sabina Wex: I see barbed wire.
18:04
Vanessa Vakharia: Like so much.
18:06
Sabina Wex: Yeah, we're just coming out of the Pi Day.
18:08
Sabina Wex: It's 11:21.
18:09
Sabina Wex: Not only did we do our Pi Day, which we had to wrap up at exactly 10:20 because there was a count that the prisoners have to be in their cells for at 10:30.
18:18
Sabina Wex: Um, but we also got a tour of the facility, so we have a lot to debrief on.
18:22
Sabina Wex: The three of us, the OG Math Therapy team.
18:26
Sabina Wex: How are we feeling guys?
18:28
Sabina Wex: Vanessa, David?
18:28
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
18:29
Vanessa Vakharia: So I need to start by saying thank you guys.
18:32
Vanessa Vakharia: Seriously.
18:32
Vanessa Vakharia: Like I really, I really wanna just start by saying thank you guys so much.
18:37
Vanessa Vakharia: Remember we weren't even gonna come and we were like, this is gonna be a shit show.
18:40
Vanessa Vakharia: And like, all of these questions and like, I'm not gonna speak for you guys.
18:42
Vanessa Vakharia: You guys are gonna speak in a second, but I have to say, like, I, I wouldn't have come without you, and I'm so fucking glad I did because that was such a special experience.
18:52
Vanessa Vakharia: So, but seriously guys, thank you.
18:54
Vanessa Vakharia: Like that was beyond what I ever, well, like I didn't even know what to expect, but it was a million times better than what I didn't expect.
19:01
Sabina Wex: Yeah, it was a lot better than I expected.
19:03
Sabina Wex: And also I think in a weird way, I felt very anti-climatic.
19:08
Sabina Wex: Like I think we were like so nervous, unsure what was gonna happen, but it was actually just like almost any other talk I've seen you do, Vanessa.
19:14
Sabina Wex: Like that's what was cool.
19:15
Sabina Wex: It was just actually pretty normal.
19:17
Vanessa Vakharia: I would say the audience was more receptive than my normal audiences.
19:22
Vanessa Vakharia: It's hard to not go into it with like, I'm sorry, but like we were just completely influenced by media.
19:28
Vanessa Vakharia: So our, yeah, perceptions of what jail is gonna be like, of what an inmate is gonna be like.
19:32
Vanessa Vakharia: All of those things were in my head before and I think it was like I don't know, when I was talking about like.
19:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Has been a gatekeeper for so many and so many of us are just taught we can't do things like so many of them are just like nodding along.
19:43
Vanessa Vakharia: So I think it's like one of those things where it's like, yeah, I sometimes am like, oh, am I pushing it too far?
19:49
Vanessa Vakharia: Like you know, in a math talk, talking about this kind of stuff.
19:52
Vanessa Vakharia: But I actually just think like, this is why we started Math Therapy.
19:55
Vanessa Vakharia: Like this truly is, math really is something that at its core, can oppress or empower people like I really believe that.
20:02
Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
20:04
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
20:04
Vanessa Vakharia: David, sabina, you guys go.
20:06
Sabina Wex: David, what are your thoughts?
20:08
David Kochberg: More than anything, I guess I feel like humbled by the experience.
20:11
David Kochberg: Mm-hmm.
20:11
David Kochberg: There's a lot to process because there's, yeah, there's like a room full of guys who are in there, some have been in there for decades, some will be in there for decades and like who knows what each of their stories is.
20:30
David Kochberg: But today, like without exaggeration, could be the highlight of their year, which is insane for us to think that way.
20:39
David Kochberg: But just knowing, like, yeah, hearing from some of the other people, like some of the staff, there's, this stuff doesn't happen.
20:46
David Kochberg: Like this is not, this is extremely unique.
20:50
David Kochberg: They don't get visitors in and certainly no one brings Starbucks in like,
20:55
Sabina Wex: Oh, they seriously, they were stoked about the coffee.
20:57
Sabina Wex: They kept being like, oh my God, it's so great you guys brought coffee and I was, don't you have coffee in here?
21:02
Sabina Wex: And they're like, it's instant, so this is so good.
21:05
Sabina Wex: They were so excited, that's why they were all hyped to try the oat milk.
21:09
Vanessa Vakharia: I'm sorry.
21:11
Vanessa Vakharia: I just still think that was the highlight for me, is someone going, wait, they're milking oats now?
21:15
Vanessa Vakharia: And Sabina being like, yeah, you should try, you know, if you're lactose intolerant, a great alternative.
21:22
Sabina Wex: And it was just like I don't know David, if you noticed this too and Vanessa maybe you did too, but when David and I were like at one point handing out, we had brought in some pies and cookies and coffee for the inmates and we were like handing it out to them.
21:35
Sabina Wex: Cutting it up for them.
21:35
Sabina Wex: Cause I think they're actually not allowed to like touch it even.
21:38
Sabina Wex: Right.
21:38
Sabina Wex: Because we weren't even allowed knives to cut the pie.
21:41
Vanessa Vakharia: What were you cutting it with?
21:42
Sabina Wex: Like forks.
21:43
David Kochberg: There was one spatula
21:45
Sabina Wex: Yeah
21:45
David Kochberg: That, the guy had brought out.
21:46
Sabina Wex: And they were like, oh my God, thank you so much.
21:48
Sabina Wex: And they individually like thanked both of us for coming and for doing this and for bringing stuff.
21:53
Sabina Wex: They were like so grateful.
21:55
Sabina Wex: And I guess I didn't realize how big a deal it was for us to come there.
21:58
Sabina Wex: Right?
21:59
Sabina Wex: Like obviously it was, I was more thinking about myself being like, so I'm coming to prison, like this is dangerous.
22:06
Sabina Wex: But I was like, this is a big deal.
22:08
Sabina Wex: This is a way bigger deal to you than it is to me.
22:10
Sabina Wex: At first we're like, ha, we're going to jail.
22:11
Sabina Wex: How crazy is that?
22:13
Sabina Wex: And now it's like, like David said, like this made your year, or for sure your day or your week or something thing like.
22:19
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
22:19
Vanessa Vakharia: And I think also too, I was like, ugh, I don't want to be this annoying like savior coming, like, you know what I mean?
22:24
Sabina Wex: No.
22:24
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, yeah.
22:25
Vanessa Vakharia: Like us being like, oh my God.
22:26
Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's hard to like, take, not center yourself in the equation of being like,
22:31
Sabina Wex: mm-hmm
22:32
Vanessa Vakharia: We're going to do this thing, da da da da.
22:34
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was so worried about saying something offensive or coming across as like, oh my God, I'm some cool person because I've decided to come to prison.
22:40
Vanessa Vakharia: And I really didn't wanna come off that way.
22:42
Vanessa Vakharia: Cause I really was actually like, I'm actually thankful you're like sharing your time with us.
22:46
Vanessa Vakharia: Like we're just some randoms coming in here talking to you about math.
22:50
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
22:50
Sabina Wex: I felt so grateful to them.
22:51
Sabina Wex: I was like, wow, this is a big deal for you to come out and do this.
22:54
Sabina Wex: And also like just when they were doing the math problems, when you were talking, when even with all the videos, they were so engaged, so respectful, like really wanted to hear about it.
23:05
David Kochberg: When this first came up, I think all of us were kind of skeptical.
23:09
David Kochberg: And, but I'm so happy that we came because it was a fascinating life experience that mm-hmm I would never have otherwise had.
23:18
David Kochberg: And I think it really was extremely eye-opening to like see what even the, the slightest hint slice of life for a prisoner on the inside of a facility like that.
23:30
David Kochberg: And just to be in the same room with a bunch of actual people it sort of humanizes the idea of inmates who are in for a very long sentence.
23:40
David Kochberg: And yeah, we can't make too many assumptions or inferences about each of their stories.
23:46
David Kochberg: But just seeing them today, I mean there's lots of problems with the system and like the guys who are working in the shops that we saw like working an eight hour day every day for like three bucks.
24:00
David Kochberg: Like that's fucked up.
24:01
Vanessa Vakharia: No,$2 and 62 cents.
24:02
David Kochberg: Well, yeah.
24:03
Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe$3 Canadian a day.
24:04
David Kochberg: That's true.
24:05
Vanessa Vakharia: Three a day.
24:06
David Kochberg: I know that's fucked up, but looking on like, on the positive, how he's saying they all love being in there.
24:11
David Kochberg: Yeah.
24:11
David Kochberg: Because the alternative is that they would just be in their tiny cell, which is like, probably like the size of this car.
24:18
David Kochberg: Yeah.
24:18
David Kochberg: And just having no hope or purpose whatsoever.
24:23
David Kochberg: And so like that's what's really meaningful to like even just a, be a support role for you MCing today,
24:32
Vanessa Vakharia: You guys were a part of it.
24:33
Vanessa Vakharia: You guys probably actually interacted more individually.
24:36
Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
24:36
Vanessa Vakharia: One-on-one with them than I did.
24:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Someone was like asking about like your engineering degree, like all of that stuff, like
24:41
David Kochberg: Yes, so he was, I think he was saying he's like early twenties and he he's so young.
24:47
David Kochberg: Was incarcerated when he was 19 and he was saying how he's like always been interested in engineering and he really liked math and science when he was at school.
24:59
David Kochberg: And like, I have no idea what put him in in prison.
25:02
David Kochberg: But he was saying that he's going to be going home this summer, I think, which I assume that means like his sentence is up and so he was asking me if there's a barrier to pursuing a career in engineering and like, I have no idea, but it's crazy to think like this kid, he technically could have a new life ahead of him.
25:25
Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
25:26
David Kochberg: But can he?
25:26
David Kochberg: I don't know.
25:27
David Kochberg: Like, I don't know how, what the integration system is, but I was speaking to our, our host about that and, and like he'll have a parole officer and it does seem like they've got a lot of systems at this facility to actually help rehabilitate the inmates if they have good behavior and, and if they are committed to it.
25:46
David Kochberg: So the guys that we all met today they're all level two, so level.
25:52
David Kochberg: Is very high.
25:52
David Kochberg: She's the highest in security.
25:53
David Kochberg: Yeah.
25:54
David Kochberg: And she's like, the level five is like on lockdown basically every day because there's like fights and they're like, last week there was like a stabbing and they had to like set, but these are like, like that really happens.
26:06
David Kochberg: Yeah.
26:07
David Kochberg: But these are, so that's like the maximum security.
26:09
David Kochberg: These guys that are at level two and they have a lot more freedoms because they've established a lot more trust.
26:18
Vanessa Vakharia: Could they have started at level five and moved down to level two?
26:21
David Kochberg: You can move up or down.
26:23
David Kochberg: Right.
26:23
David Kochberg: It's obviously way easier to move down.
26:24
David Kochberg: Like these guys are all at level two, but like they can fuck up and be bumped down to level four and lose all their privileges.
26:31
David Kochberg: Okay.
26:31
David Kochberg: Yeah, and it's crazy.
26:32
David Kochberg: Like there's a sign in the shop that they showed us around and so they get tickets and like, it's like a point, like a demerit system basically.
26:39
David Kochberg: You get a ticket for, misbehaving basically.
26:42
David Kochberg: And if you get it enough, you can be bumped down to a different level.
26:46
David Kochberg: So like writing in a textbook, you can get a ticket for it because you're not allowed to deface property, stuff like that.
26:55
Vanessa Vakharia: It's kind of ridiculous,
26:56
Sabina Wex: I feel like, cuz it's, they think they're gonna send a message out or something.
26:59
David Kochberg: It's true.
26:59
David Kochberg: Yeah.
27:00
Sabina Wex: And like it was interesting even the way, like I found, the way that inmates were spoken about was really, wait, what were they saying?
27:06
Sabina Wex: Weird.
27:06
Sabina Wex: Like even that sh So we went to the area where there's a lot of guys who do like, shop, like they make cabinets and stuff for Habitat For Humanity, which is really nice, but the guy there was talking about, because, I was like, oh, they make these beautiful like birdhouses gorgeous, gorgeous things they were making in shop class.
27:24
Sabina Wex: And I was like, oh, why can't they just bring it to their selves with them, like as a decoration or kind of like a reward to be like, oh, look, you made something really impactful and you can keep it and it's yours.
27:33
Sabina Wex: And they're like, oh no, like they're gonna take one strip of wood and turn it into a shank and like, duh duh.
27:40
Sabina Wex: And like, I'm sure that happens.
27:41
Sabina Wex: I don't wanna be like dismissive of that.
27:43
Sabina Wex: But I was just like, oh my God, this is really like, you're always thinking the worst.
27:49
Sabina Wex: I guess you kind of have to, but yeah, that's like a tough one.
27:52
David Kochberg: Yeah.
27:52
David Kochberg: I think unfortunately it's, it is justified like, like that's from experience.
27:55
Sabina Wex: Sure.
27:56
Sabina Wex: I'm sure.
27:57
Sabina Wex: Like I've never obviously worked in a prison.
27:59
Sabina Wex: I've never even been to a prison till today, but I was just like, oh wow.
28:03
Sabina Wex: What a hard thing to do, to go in somewhere, you know, you've obviously done something enough that you have to be put in prison for it, and then you have all these people basically being like we assume that you are gonna hurt someone else, and do something bad.
28:18
Sabina Wex: Like basically really like not even giving you the benefit of the doubt.
28:21
Sabina Wex: That was hard to hear, even though I get it.
28:24
Sabina Wex: I was just like, yeah, ugh.
28:25
Sabina Wex: This is so,
28:26
David Kochberg: Yeah, it's dehumanizing for sure.
28:28
David Kochberg: And none of us are experts in, because yeah, it, what else can you do?
28:33
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
28:33
David Kochberg: Like if someone said, like we were in a room with of people who probably have murdered people, which is crazy to think, but then also I.
28:42
Vanessa Vakharia: I can't even wrap my head around.
28:43
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
28:44
David Kochberg: But then also, like we were also at the same time in a room with like a bunch of guys who were just really nice and friendly and polite.
28:49
Sabina Wex: Yes.
28:50
David Kochberg: And, and had a great time talking about math for a couple hours, so it's like crazy disconnect, but then mm-hmm in terms of like, what, what can society do differently?
28:59
David Kochberg: That's a way bigger question beyond our knowledge or ability.
29:02
David Kochberg: But that's why I just tried to go into it just thinking, what can we do ourselves to just like make their day a bit better?
29:15
David Kochberg: Yeah, and I think we've very much did that in a lot of ways.
29:20
David Kochberg: We can't think too far ahead in terms of what is their whole life.
29:24
Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
29:26
David Kochberg: But even just for one day, because yeah, they don't have a whole lot of dignity in there.
29:31
David Kochberg: Right.
29:31
David Kochberg: So I think that something that feels good is that we treated them with a lot of dignity and respect.
29:37
David Kochberg: Which I think probably meant a lot to them.
29:40
Vanessa Vakharia: I also like makes, think of like, I don't know that John Mighton meant this, of course I have to bring him up.
29:44
Vanessa Vakharia: But, like he's talking about it in a different way, but he talks about how math is the great equalizer and, like just the idea of mathematical thinking as the great equalizer.
29:51
Vanessa Vakharia: Like in that room we're talking about math and we're like the conversations are like, oh wait, that's such a cool way of thinking about it.
29:56
Vanessa Vakharia: And like, how did you come to that solution?
29:58
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's kind of like everything else fades away and you're like, we're all just talking about how to solve a problem together.
30:04
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
30:04
Vanessa Vakharia: Which is like very, it is kind of the great equalizer because actually a lot of them knew more about math than I did.
30:11
David Kochberg: Yeah.
30:11
Sabina Wex: Well that's what was cool, was like Travis, who is kind of the main PMP guy at this prison, when he first got in, he was really unfocused.
30:20
Sabina Wex: He was young too, he was 19, he was, you know, angry, whatever.
30:24
Sabina Wex: And math gave him like such a sense of calm and purpose and order.
30:29
Sabina Wex: And now he's like this exemplary inmate, he's become like basically a totally different person.
30:35
Sabina Wex: And it's like, oh, maybe this should be a rehabilitation program in more prisons, which is, I know what PMP is trying to do.
30:41
Sabina Wex: But it's like, wow, like, I don't think people would necessarily put math and prison together.
30:46
Vanessa Vakharia: No, never.
30:46
Vanessa Vakharia: It would be like the last thing, and people always would assume that like, we do that with math anyway, we'd be like, there's no way they can understand it, like they're incapable, like it's too advanced.
30:56
Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas like it's kind of the opposite, like, I'm sorry.
30:59
Vanessa Vakharia: When the shop guy was telling us about why they can't let a, an inmate take a pen out, it's because they'll take the pen apart and to turn the coil into something where you can boil water and then they'll turn the other part into like a tattoo gun.
31:10
Vanessa Vakharia: They are some of the most creative thinkers.
31:13
Sabina Wex: Yeah, and they're like so scientific and even that guy who came up when Ben was doing his fucking crazy infinity Hilbert's hotel problem, and this guy just comes up and did the answer, like had a way of thinking about it where I'm like, you got it?
31:25
Sabina Wex: Like this took not no training obviously, but like you're thinking deeply about something like you can get there, which is so cool.
31:34
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
31:35
Sabina Wex: And even Ben was saying like the problems he was giving them, he's like, yeah, what's good about these problems is you don't actually have to have technical training.
31:41
Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
31:41
Sabina Wex: But you can problem solve them, which I thought was really cool.
31:45
David Kochberg: And it was a cool mix between and what Ben was doing and what your approach is because he's presenting these like complex mathematical problems.
31:56
David Kochberg: And you are also balancing that like it's okay if you have no idea what he's saying, because even if you are trying to think about this ridiculous nonsense exploration of infinity, you're thinking about it.
32:13
David Kochberg: And that in itself is a good activity to just be like challenging yourself to think and you can only imagine how absent that opportunity typically is for them to just be like thinking creatively about just an interesting problem for its own sake.
32:29
David Kochberg: And that was cool that you gave Travis an opportunity to stand up and speak about his story briefly, and then also field questions because you could see some of these other guys who maybe would've been hesitant to participate or get up and speak or something like he can be a role model for them and create a bit more connection and sense of community and maybe for them to think about themselves differently.
32:56
David Kochberg: Like you gave up a bunch of really great pep talks as you typically do.
33:02
David Kochberg: Cause yeah, like we've heard you give the, or I certainly more than anyone have heard you give like a lot of these, speeches or pep talks many a time.
33:12
David Kochberg: But it was especially resonant and, and like pretty crazy for me to think about like what these, the implications of the lessons that you're sharing with these guys who they're the people that society forgets the most.
33:28
Sabina Wex: When we were hanging out with them.
33:29
Sabina Wex: I was like, I didn't really think of them as prisoners necessarily, like once we got to know them a bit.
33:34
Vanessa Vakharia: Me neither.
33:34
Vanessa Vakharia: I actually couldn't put the two together.
33:36
Vanessa Vakharia: What David is saying, it's like, yeah, that disconnect.
33:38
Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, yeah, I know cerebrally that we were in a prison and you've committed a crime.
33:43
Vanessa Vakharia: Plus exactly like when you hear about this stuff, which is the only way we interact with it, if you hear about it on the news or something, it is completely dehumanized or the person is painted in a very particular way that is so incongruous with what we just saw, so there is a lot going on there.
33:58
Vanessa Vakharia: And also obviously now I'm like thinking about all these things I wished I said, so we just won't even get into that cause Exactly.
34:04
Vanessa Vakharia: We'll go into my imposter syndrome.
34:06
David Kochberg: No, no, no.
34:07
Sabina Wex: You were great.
34:07
Sabina Wex: You were really good.
34:08
Sabina Wex: Everybody was super into it and like, staff were so excited.
34:12
Sabina Wex: The inmates were so excited.
34:13
Sabina Wex: Like everybody was stoked.
34:15
Sabina Wex: Everyone liked it.
34:15
Sabina Wex: Like the warden came to us to be like, this was great.
34:19
Sabina Wex: This sounds like it went really well.
34:20
Vanessa Vakharia: Well, hopefully the word spreads, I hope this is one of those things where everyone's talking about it enough that like, they're like, oh fuck, like it sounds like this is actually really good.
34:29
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah,
34:29
Sabina Wex: I'm sure those prisoners are gonna go tell their cellmate to be like, oh, I just did this cool thing.
34:35
David Kochberg: Yeah.
34:35
David Kochberg: Everyone was appreciative, like the inmates, but then also the staff.
34:38
Sabina Wex: Yeah.
34:39
David Kochberg: They were all really appreciative of us coming and doing this.
34:45
Sabina Wex: Okay.
34:45
Sabina Wex: Shall I stop recording?
34:46
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
34:46
Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
34:47
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
34:47
Vanessa Vakharia: Did that make any sense to you guys?
34:49
Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like we're like all shell shocked and just feeling very like contemplated and existential about our first time in prison.
34:57
Vanessa Vakharia: But seriously guys, it was such an incredible experience, and we've all been thinking about it every single day since March 14th.
35:04
Vanessa Vakharia: And I wanted to share some of the reflections and thoughts that I've been having as I processed how grateful I am, I mean, we all are, to have been given this opportunity.
35:11
Vanessa Vakharia: The first thing I want to talk about is when I got in there, so after I finished telling them I was nervous and stuff, I Started by saying,"who's here for the math and who's here for the free pie".
35:23
Vanessa Vakharia: And they honestly, like a few of them were there for the math, but a lot of them were just like, yeah, we're just here from the pie, like, we don't know anything about math.
35:31
Vanessa Vakharia: And then I asked who had math anxiety and a bunch of them raise their hands.
35:36
Vanessa Vakharia: And I know, you know, I always think it's so cool, like, often I give talks to teachers and students, and I always think it's like very courageous to actually raise your hand and, admit that, right?
35:46
Vanessa Vakharia: It can be something people feel very self-conscious about.
35:48
Vanessa Vakharia: And I feel like it really warmed up the room for everyone to sort of, like keep in mind there were people in there that don't even have their high school diploma.
35:54
Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
35:55
Vanessa Vakharia: And we know how pervasive math trauma is, and I'm sure, convicted felons, like any other segment of the population definitely have a high proportion of math trauma and math anxiety.
36:05
Vanessa Vakharia: So I thought that was really, really amazing.
36:08
Vanessa Vakharia: that we could start off the day by saying, yeah, not all of us are here for the math, not all of us are comfortable with math, and some of us have math anxiety.
36:15
Vanessa Vakharia: And that opened up the floor for me to talk about my experiences and to say, hey, that's normal.
36:21
Vanessa Vakharia: It's normal for you to have math anxiety in here and on the outside or whatever.
36:26
Vanessa Vakharia: Like this is a common thing.
36:27
Vanessa Vakharia: People have math anxiety and it has nothing to do with your capability to do math.
36:34
Vanessa Vakharia: And I think that was a very important message.
36:36
Vanessa Vakharia: I explained that I suffer from math anxiety in situations too.
36:39
Vanessa Vakharia: It doesn't mean I'm not good at math.
36:41
Vanessa Vakharia: And that shouldn't preclude us from trying.
36:43
Vanessa Vakharia: So then I actually talked about growth mindset and I actually hadn't planned to, like, I actually didn't plan anything I was going to say, because I just like that's who I am.
36:52
Vanessa Vakharia: But.
36:53
Vanessa Vakharia: as I started talking about it, I was like, oh my God, we take it so for granted especially in education, we assume everyone like just knows what growth mindset is.
37:02
Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
37:02
Vanessa Vakharia: Which I actually think is a problem because I think we use the term a lot and a lot of people say it, but they don't know exactly what it means.
37:09
Vanessa Vakharia: And these inmates definitely didn't know, who would have told them about growth mindset, many of them, right?
37:15
Vanessa Vakharia: So I thought it was so powerful to talk about our actual brains, that we have neural pathways that you know, we can change, the way we see ourselves as capable as, of math, we can change our responses to math.
37:28
Vanessa Vakharia: But what we were going to be doing that day for two and a half hours, while it was math, I kind of was like, it's going to show you guys that we can change.
37:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Period.
37:40
Vanessa Vakharia: That our brains can change.
37:41
Vanessa Vakharia: And one of the coolest things that happened is that the end of the two and a half hours, I said because, oh my God, Ben had ended with his Hilbert's hotel thing, okay, so everyone was just like, what the fuck is going on?
37:54
Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, Do your brains hurt and all of them were like, yes.
37:58
Vanessa Vakharia: And I said, you have all thought one or many more new thoughts in the past two and a half hours, it is proof that you can think of things a different way, it is proof that your, your brain is different now than it was at the beginning of the two and a half hours.
38:12
Vanessa Vakharia: And, and it was just everyone just cheered.
38:15
Vanessa Vakharia: It was like the coolest thing, because that's what I always say about math.
38:19
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I don't care about the math, like fine, it's cool.
38:21
Vanessa Vakharia: But through teaching math, through helping people feel like an inch more capable of math, you are showing them that they have the ability to change, to grow, to think different ways, to develop new habits.
38:36
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, okay, I'm getting like all like worked up now, but I I was really glad I went on that tangent because I was like, this is what it's actually about.
38:43
Vanessa Vakharia: And what was so funny is, as I told you guys, only some of them were there for the math at the beginning, but by the end, they all were, all of them were like, yep.
38:51
Vanessa Vakharia: I want to sign up for Prison Math Project.
38:52
Vanessa Vakharia: They all started like, coming up with things they were interested in.
38:56
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you know what I mean?
38:57
Vanessa Vakharia: Like some of them were like, yeah, I've always been interested in science and in solving puzzles, another inmate who had a Scorpio tattoo, so I'll call him, Scorpio was like,"you know what, when I was in school, I could never really pay attention to stuff, and I always got in trouble for not showing my work, but I've always been so curious about how things work.
39:14
Vanessa Vakharia: And do you think I can get an engineering degree when I'm out of here?" And he was actually one of, one of the inmates that got up in front of the whole group and, you know, was trying to solve a math problem.
39:23
Vanessa Vakharia: And he was like,"hey guys, here's how I tried to solve this problem.
39:26
Vanessa Vakharia: I got stuck at this step.
39:27
Vanessa Vakharia: Can anyone help me out?" So I'll talk about more about the math later, but I thought it was so cool that all of them are kind of like, wow, we have felt the tiniest inkling of growth.
39:37
Vanessa Vakharia: We have been challenged to think in a way that no one believed in us to think before, maybe?
39:42
Vanessa Vakharia: It was just a very, very cool thing, and I, it kind of made me wonder, what does this tell us about the way we teach math?
39:47
Vanessa Vakharia: And about the relationship part of teaching math.
39:49
Vanessa Vakharia: What does it tell us that we walked into a room of inmates, most of whom do not think of themselves as mathematically capable and by the end of two hours, all of them were interested in learning more.
40:01
Vanessa Vakharia: What does that tell us about the way, you know, somebody, an instructor at the front of the room, or maybe not at the front of the room, makes it clear that they believe in their audience and in their students.
40:11
Vanessa Vakharia: So like just, I was left thinking all of those things.
40:14
Vanessa Vakharia: Another thing I thought was really interesting is so when Ben taught the, so Ben asked this question, okay, you guys will probably like it.
40:21
Vanessa Vakharia: The first problem, the first math problem we worked on, he said,"so you guys have six different flavored pies, like apple, peach, blueberry, whatever.
40:29
Vanessa Vakharia: How many different orders can you eat them in?" Now, some of you might know that the answer is six factorial, but most of them did not know what a factorial was.
40:38
Vanessa Vakharia: No, some of them did because actually, uh, one of the inmates there, Travis Cunningham, he's been a part of the prison math project for a bit of time.
40:46
Vanessa Vakharia: And he does six hours of math every day in his cell, and he was there saying,"if you guys have questions about how I got involved, or you need math help, come up to me".
40:54
Vanessa Vakharia: So he did know, a couple of them knew, but like most of them don't know what a factorial is.
40:59
Vanessa Vakharia: Again, they don't have high school diplomas a lot at them.
41:01
Vanessa Vakharia: But what was so fascinating is, and you hear this a lot about sort of asking questions like this, where there are many different entry points.
41:10
Vanessa Vakharia: This could be considered I think, a low floor, high ceiling exercise.
41:14
Vanessa Vakharia: You could know what a factorial is, you could know the formula to solve it, but you also can work it out.
41:19
Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
41:20
Vanessa Vakharia: You can logic it out.
41:21
Vanessa Vakharia: It might take a bit of time, but you can.
41:22
Vanessa Vakharia: And it was so funny when he asked that question, every single person went to work.
41:26
Vanessa Vakharia: Some people didn't know what to start.
41:27
Vanessa Vakharia: Some people, we encouraged people to get into groups and to talk.
41:30
Vanessa Vakharia: Some people were trying to figure things out.
41:31
Vanessa Vakharia: You know, Scorpio was like, oh, I knew the formula for this at one point.
41:34
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, forgot the formula.
41:36
Vanessa Vakharia: Let's think about it.
41:37
Vanessa Vakharia: How would you figure it out?
41:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Some of them were making tree diagrams, charts, slots.
41:42
Vanessa Vakharia: Like there were so many cool ways of watching them all try to solve the problem.
41:47
Vanessa Vakharia: And that was what the, one of the coolest things was like.
41:50
Vanessa Vakharia: It reminds me of Peter Liljedahl a bit to be like, when you focus on the thinking, right?
41:54
Vanessa Vakharia: Like forget what the right answer is, when you just focus on thinking and collaborating, and curiosity and wonder they were all in flow.
42:02
Vanessa Vakharia: They were all doing it.
42:03
Vanessa Vakharia: And then when Ben was like, who wants to come up and show their work?
42:06
Vanessa Vakharia: Most of them did not have the quote unquote right answer, but they were all happy to come up and show what they had done and to see if anyone could help them build on that, to get to the answer.
42:14
Vanessa Vakharia: There really didn't seem to be much ego or much like embarrassment of getting the wrong answer.
42:19
Vanessa Vakharia: It was the curiosity, it was the trying, it was the thinking, it was the collaborating that was kind of on display.
42:25
Vanessa Vakharia: And I thought that was really, really cool.
42:29
Vanessa Vakharia: Because again, like, in school, things are so different.
42:32
Vanessa Vakharia: We're so focused on getting the right answer, we're so focused on marks.
42:34
Vanessa Vakharia: It was interesting to see when you take that away, what's left is true mathematics.
42:41
Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
42:41
Vanessa Vakharia: So the other thing is when Ben brought up Hilbert's hotel, okay, whereas me, Sabina, and David had been like, what the fuck, Ben?
42:50
Vanessa Vakharia: These inmates were all into it.
42:52
Vanessa Vakharia: Actually, one of them had an infinity tattoo, which I thought was so cool.
42:56
Vanessa Vakharia: Their minds were blown.
42:57
Vanessa Vakharia: Now, okay, look.
42:58
Vanessa Vakharia: If you ask a question like a hotel has infinite rooms, they're all full and a guest shows up, can we fit them in?
43:05
Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
43:05
Vanessa Vakharia: Like in a normal math classroom, people are going to be like, what's the answer.
43:08
Vanessa Vakharia: They were like, the questions they were asking were great.
43:12
Vanessa Vakharia: some of them were like, what kind of hotel room is this?
43:14
Vanessa Vakharia: Like, one of them was like, that's like maximum security prison, anyways, whatever, prison jokes.
43:19
Vanessa Vakharia: But like people, they were really contemplating it.
43:22
Vanessa Vakharia: They were really trying to solve the problem and their minds were blown and they liked it.
43:26
Vanessa Vakharia: They loved how hard it was, they loved how challenging it was.
43:28
Vanessa Vakharia: Again, like it wasn't about getting the right answer.
43:31
Vanessa Vakharia: It was about being like, wow, I'm feeling my brain grow.
43:33
Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm learning things at my table from other, you know, my peers that like, I've never thought of before.
43:38
Vanessa Vakharia: It was just very, very cool.
43:40
Vanessa Vakharia: Also, I have to tell you guys this part.
43:41
Vanessa Vakharia: So we mentioned in the recording that we went to like visit this like factory thing where they all work in.
43:47
Vanessa Vakharia: And the shop teacher showed us a pen, he like pulls out a pen and he's like, you could never leave this pen, like lying around.
43:52
Vanessa Vakharia: And we're like, why?
43:54
Vanessa Vakharia: And he's like, because they would take it apart, they would turn the ink into a tattoo gun, they would take the coil out of the pen and they'd figure out a way to hook it up so it boiled water, and I'm sitting there thinking holy shit, are these the engineers of our time, right?
44:09
Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's like the creativity, like it's it just blows my mind.
44:13
Vanessa Vakharia: Look, I know we're talking about inmates.
44:14
Vanessa Vakharia: I know we're talking about like something specific, but to me it just shows that the most overlooked people in math are often the ones with the most creative ways of thinking, the most non-traditional creative ways of thinking, aren't those the people we need in STEM fields.
44:30
Vanessa Vakharia: Like aren't those the people we should be encouraging to think, to think out of the box to like, I don't know, it was just, I thought it was so cool, but I was also like, yep, this is why we are missing the mark when it comes to math.
44:44
Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, another thing I was thinking is.
44:45
Vanessa Vakharia: cause we all left and we were like, they need math therapy, like, see what happened in two and a half hours, like, you know, everyone learned their brains could grow and there was such high morale.
44:52
Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, why do we have art therapy, but not math therapy.
44:56
Vanessa Vakharia: It's because we don't think people are capable of mathematical thinking and the opposite is true.
45:02
Vanessa Vakharia: It's like it is therapeutic to challenge your brain.
45:05
Vanessa Vakharia: It is therapeutic to show yourself you can grow and learn and think in a way you can't, or you've never been able to, like that is therapeutic.
45:13
Vanessa Vakharia: When you're not results driven, when you're not saying the only important thing is the right answer, when you're not doing it for marks, mathematical thinking can be spiritual.
45:21
Vanessa Vakharia: It can be meditative.
45:22
Vanessa Vakharia: It can be beautiful.
45:23
Vanessa Vakharia: It can be empowering.
45:25
Vanessa Vakharia: And that reminds me of what we're really missing.
45:27
Vanessa Vakharia: You know, Travis Cunningham, the inmate I told you about he's in there for another, I think 10, 12 years, he's the one who has been doing math every day for six hours.
45:36
Vanessa Vakharia: he kinda got up in front of everyone and he said, I know this might sound ridiculous, but you know, once I started doing math, I really started seeing beauty in it.
45:42
Vanessa Vakharia: I really found it spiritual.
45:44
Vanessa Vakharia: I really found it to be a meditation.
45:45
Vanessa Vakharia: And Christopher Havens said the same thing, and I think math can be so oppressive, so traumatic, or it can be so healing and so empowering.
45:56
Vanessa Vakharia: I guess like, my final reflection is just, you know, I'm not going to get into all of their backgrounds and we certainly don't know all of their backgrounds and stories, but I remember Christopher Havens has said this to me on our episode of the podcast that like, certainly it's not because he had a bad relationship with math or was like excluded from the math classroom or anything like that, that he committed a crime.
46:15
Vanessa Vakharia: But it is a common thread.
46:17
Vanessa Vakharia: I heard this from a lot of these inmates that they had sort of been overlooked.
46:20
Vanessa Vakharia: They were directionless.
46:21
Vanessa Vakharia: No one really believed in them and you know, Christopher has said this, that he ended up getting involved with like a bad crowd and doing drugs and doing his thing because he just wanted it to be cool, he had no confidence.
46:31
Vanessa Vakharia: And I really wonder, like, again, I always think of math as so much more than math.
46:36
Vanessa Vakharia: It is a divider between those who can and those who can, it is the arbiter of who's intelligent.
46:42
Vanessa Vakharia: It's, you know, uh, a symbol of who belongs and who's deserving.
46:46
Vanessa Vakharia: And what if we, what if we took that a little more seriously?
46:51
Vanessa Vakharia: I think that's why it was so amazing.
46:52
Vanessa Vakharia: We were only there for two and a half hours.
46:54
Vanessa Vakharia: I don't want to be like, oh my God, we're these crazy saviors and we changed their lives.
46:57
Vanessa Vakharia: No.
46:58
Vanessa Vakharia: But I hope that that two and a half hours of knowing someone believes in you and knowing you're capable in something you might've been written off from made a difference.
47:07
Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I have new thoughts every day, but I guess what I'm really left reflecting upon is how are we getting it so wrong?
47:12
Vanessa Vakharia: Just watching 25 inmates, some of whom don't even have a high school diploma working together to eagerly and curiously solve a university level math problem just did it for me.
47:22
Vanessa Vakharia: When grades aren't involved and relationships are built when collaboration is encouraged, when everyone is invited to the table, that's when the most meaningful math happens, and when the most math learners are able to blossom.
47:32
Vanessa Vakharia: Yet that is the complete opposite of what happens and what has been historically happening in most math classrooms.
47:38
Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, that's a rant for another episode, but for now guys, I have to say thank you for listening and thank you for letting me outer process straight to your ears, I needed it.
47:47
Vanessa Vakharia: As I mentioned earlier on the episode, every single one of the 25 inmates, we spoke to filled out a Prison Math Project for them to be matched with a math mentor, which is amazing, but daunting for an organization that currently runs on volunteers and incarcerated members.
48:00
Vanessa Vakharia: So, if you want to make a donation, be a math mentor or volunteer at some other capacity, Head to prisonmathproject.org.
48:06
Vanessa Vakharia: They would love to have you.
48:08
Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much for listening.
48:09
Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I've so many other reflections.
48:11
Vanessa Vakharia: I'm sure I didn't cover everything I could have, so if you have a question, post it in the YouTube comments on this episode, tweet me at The Math Guru or at Math Therapy, head to Instagram at The Math Guru and comment on a post related to this episode.
48:25
Vanessa Vakharia: I would love to answer your questions, and you will find the website to Prison Math Project plus, oh my God, we have some pictures from the day because there was a photographer there.
48:33
Vanessa Vakharia: You'll find that all in the show notes for this episode.
48:36
Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for listening, stay tuned, and happy belated Pi Day!