Latest / Edan Haddock - Total Talent / Pick Up The Phone: Did We Break Reference Checking?

Transcript

Pick Up The Phone: Did We Break Reference Checking? · Edan Haddock - Total Talent

• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Eden Haddock Total Talent.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Eden Haddock, Head of Talent and People Experience at Movember.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And this is day two of 30 days, 30 episodes, one mission.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: 30 brand new episodes across November.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: All raising money and awareness for Movember and men's health.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're enjoying the series, please donate if you can and share it.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because somebody who sees your share might be the next person who donates.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Day two.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to talk about something that has been part of recruitment for as long as I can remember.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Reference checks.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And specifically, I think we might have broken them.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not because reference checking doesn't work.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: But because in our obsession with making recruitment faster, easier, and more automated, we took something that was fundamentally a human conversation and turned it into a form.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when did reference checking become so boring?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Think about the traditional reference check.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: You get to the end of a recruitment process.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: You ask the candidate for two referees.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: They provide the names.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: We send an email.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: The referee receives a link.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: They click the link.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: They answer some questions.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: How would you rate their communication?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Four out of five.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: How would you rate their teamwork?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Four out of five.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Would you re-employ them?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Submit?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Reference complete.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tick.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Next.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then that information gets saved somewhere inside an ATS or HRIS.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Probably then never to be looked at again.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we call that due diligence.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: But what did we actually learn?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I've been thinking about.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think reference checking has become one of those processes where we've confused completion with value.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: We completed the reference.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: But did it actually help us make a better hiring decision?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Did we learn something we didn't already know?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Did it identify something we should explore?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did it tell us how to onboard this person?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Did it give the hiring manager useful information?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Did it make the candidate more likely to succeed?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or did we just tick the reference checkbox?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're only doing it to tick the box, I actually understand why some people think references are useless.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe references aren't the problem.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: As part of this Movember series, I recently spent some time with Will McPhee, who walked me through a platform called Referenced.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Will said something pretty early in our conversation I really liked.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: He basically said that if you're asking generic questions using a template somebody created ten years ago, then yeah, references probably aren't worth much.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's exactly right.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the problem isn't reference checking.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's how we're reference checking.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Referenced actually came out of Will's own frustration inside recruitment.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: His team was conducting a significant volume of references.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: They were paying for technology to support the process.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: But they were still encountering a really simple problem.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: When they actually picked up the phone and spoke to a referee, they had to listen.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ask questions, think about follow-up questions, type, take notes, and somehow keep the conversation flowing at the same time.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, anyone who has done a proper reference check and knows exactly what that feels like.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to someone give you a genuinely useful answer while simultaneously smashing away at the keyboard trying to capture it.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And unless you're some kind of transcription ninja, you're not capturing every word.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're summarizing, you're paraphrasing, you're interpreting.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you're missing the most interesting bit because you're still typing the previous answer.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Will and the team built something to solve that problem.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the really interesting thing is their answer wasn't to remove the phone call, which many of us have done.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was simply to make the phone call easier.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's technology that helps us go backwards.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is the part that immediately got me interested.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've spent years trying to remove human interaction from recruitment processes in the name of efficiency.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And now technology is becoming sophisticated enough that maybe we can actually use it to put some of those interactions back.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really interesting reversal.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Referenced is a reference checking platform.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can manage candidates, you can create reference templates, you can send references digitally.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can give candidates the ability to provide referee information.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: There are workflow tools, candidate records, and integrations.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: All the things that you would expect from a reference checking platform.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the capability that stood out to me is ridiculously simple.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can pick up the phone, have the conversation, record the referee's answers with their consent, and have those answered, those answers transcribed.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And weirdly, I think that's bloody powerful.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because the recruiter can stop being the typer.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not trying to type 130 words a minute.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're not looking down at your keyboard while somebody is giving you an important answer.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Actually listening.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And when they say something interesting, you can follow up.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: The power is in the follow-up question.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is what forms can never really replicate.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine I ask, how would you rate Eden's stakeholder management?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the referee says, Yeah, pretty good.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: A form records pretty good.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a three or four out of five.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Done.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: But a human hears something else.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty good.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's a pause.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's hesitation.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's something sitting underneath that answer.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I can say what makes you say pretty good?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or what would have made it excellent?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or was there a particular stakeholder group he found more difficult?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or what advice would you give his next manager?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're learning something.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the referee says, actually, Eden was excellent with senior leaders.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: But early in his time with us, he sometimes struggled to bring operational managers with him.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: He got much better at it over time.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's useful.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not necessarily a reason not to hire me.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: It might actually be incredibly valuable onboarding information.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where I think reference checking has been misunderstood.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're constantly looking for references to tell us hire, don't hire.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Good candidate, bad candidate.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Red flag, green flag.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: But what if that's not their most valuable purpose?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Should references help the person succeed?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is probably the biggest idea I took away from my conversation with Will.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: A reference doesn't only have to validate the decision you've already made.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: It can help you prepare for what happens next.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ask the referee.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: How does this person like to receive feedback?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: What type of manager gets the best out of them?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where did they need the most support when they worked with you?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: What did you learn about motivating them?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: What environment did they thrive in?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: What would you do differently if you were onboarding them again?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: What responsibility haven't they had before that they might need support with here?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Those are bloody useful questions.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because now the reference check starts bridging recruitment and onboarding.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I've talked about on this podcast repeatedly.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Talent doesn't finish when somebody signs a contract.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Recruitment should create information that makes the employee experience better.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine a hiring manager receiving a short onboarding summary before their new employee starts.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what we learned through the process.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what their previous manager told us.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how they responded to feedback.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Here's something they're brilliant at.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Here's an area they've had less exposure to.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let me give you referenced its moment here.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because there were a few things in the demonstration that I thought were genuinely clever.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, the core version that Will showed me is free.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that surprised me.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Will explained that the economics of running the current version allow them to make the base product available without charging organizations for each reference check.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: They are developing additional paid capability.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the core platform he demonstrated can currently be used without that traditional per reference cost.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's worth knowing.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly for smaller and medium-sized organizations that might not have significant HR technology budget.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, the voice functionality.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can conduct the reference over the phone, record the answers with consent, and the platform transcribes what the referee actually said.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Importantly, Will explained that the transcription isn't intended to rewrite the referee's answers into some completely different AI-generated interpretation.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's about capturing the answer while removing some of the verbal clutter.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you go back to the recording.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: That matters.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because Will gave me an example that I think anyone who has worked with hiring managers will recognize.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the hiring manager has told you that Excel capability is absolutely mission critical.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You conduct the reference, the referee gives you a strong answer about the candidate's Excel capability.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of you telling the hiring manager, trust me, the reference was really positive.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can potentially share the relevant voice recording so they can hear what the referee actually said.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: They hear the language, the confidence, the tone, the context.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's considerably richer than my summary saying, Hey, Excel skills, good.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Show your working.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: That phrase kept coming back to me after the demo.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Show your working.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Recruiters and talent professionals make recommendations all the time.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we're often compressing enormous amounts of information into a sentence.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is the best candidate.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: The references were strong.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: The hiring manager really liked them.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: The interview went well.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But when a stakeholder challenges us, how much of the original evidence can we actually bring back into the conversation?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Technology gives us an interesting opportunity here.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily to make the decision, but to preserve more of the information that informed it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's different, and I like it.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's also a fraud question.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Referenced has also built some checks around the referee process.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: For example, Will showed me that if a candidate and referee activity appears to come from the same device, browser, or IP address, the system can flag that for further attention.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Importantly, a flag isn't proof that somebody has done anything wrong.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't treat it that way.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: There could be legitimate explanations.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's another data point.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I've spoken before on this podcast about validation of experience.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Candidates can misrepresent things.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: People can exaggerate.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: People can provide friends as referees.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Documents can be falsified.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, none of this means we should approach candidates as though everyone is lying, though, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a terrible starting point for recruitment.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a difference between trust and having no validation whatsoever.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Reference checking is one piece of that puzzle.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't a silver bullet.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Will was very clear about that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: A reference check will not protect you from every bad hire.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it won't.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are going to do one, do it properly.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's talk about the template builder.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: This was another feature I liked because it attacks one of my biggest frustrations with standardized recruitment.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Generic questions.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Referenced has an AI agent called Roger, an AI assistant.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Roger can help build reference questions for a particular role.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than using exactly the same reference template for a sales executive, software engineer, finance manager, and head of talent, you can build something relevant to the actual position.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: That should sound incredibly obvious.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yet how many organizations genuinely do it?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: We talk endlessly about structured interviews and tailoring assessments to the capabilities required for the role.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then we get to referencing and suddenly everyone gets how was their attendance?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: How would you rate their communication?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Were they a team player?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Would you rehire them?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: What a missed opportunity.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: If I've spent weeks understanding the requirements of a role, surely my reference questions should validate some of those requirements.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And importantly, they should also investigate the things I've learned through the interview.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's an area I'm still uncertain about.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the candidate hasn't led people at the scale the position requires.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then great.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Ask the previous manager about it.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Not was Sarah a good leader.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Ask, tell me about the largest team Sarah was responsible for.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: What leadership challenges did you see her navigate?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where would Sarah need support if she moved into a significantly larger leadership role?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're getting somewhere.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: AI generating the first draft of those questions isn't replacing the recruiter.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's giving the recruiter a starting point.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, augmentation.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So AI is not the product.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where Will and I ended up having quite an interesting conversation.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because despite referenced to using AI, Will thinks AI is overhyped.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Which I found quite refreshing from somebody building a HR technology platform that uses AI.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: His point was basically: AI isn't the feature.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: The human conversation is the feature.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: AI supports it.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really useful distinction.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because right now, everything has AI slapped on it.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: AI sourcing, AI interviewing, AI coaching, AI onboarding, AI workforce planning, AI engagement, AI performance, AI everything.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes legitimately.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes because apparently you're not allowed to launch software in 2026 unless AI appears somewhere on the home page.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't care whether your product has AI.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I care whether it solves a problem.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: In this case, the problem is I want to have a proper conversation with a referee without spending the entire conversation typing.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: AI transcription helps solve that.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's useful AI.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: The technology disappears into the experience.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So human because of technology.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Weirdly, this connects beautifully to yesterday's episode.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: We keep framing technology and humanity as opposing forces, human or technology, automation or connection, efficiency or experience.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's wrong.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: The best technology should potentially allow us to become more human.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't need to choose between a great conversation and efficient administration.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Technology should handle enough of the administration that so that I can concentrate on that conversation.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I liked about what Will showed me.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: The most futuristic thing about referenced is that it encourages you to do something incredibly old fashioned.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Pick up the bloody phone.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to someone.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ask a question.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Listen.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Ask another question.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Follow the conversation.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Be curious.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: There is a watch out.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I would be thinking carefully about before implementing any voice recording technology in recruitment is governance.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're dealing with personal information.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're recording people's voices.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're storing information about candidates and referees.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Consent, privacy, retention, and access matter.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Will walked me through how Referenced approaches recording consent, data storage, and deletion.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he explained that their data is stored here in Australia.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: He also explained that voice files in the free version are automatically removed after a limited period rather than sitting there indefinitely.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: But regardless of platform, this is something every talent team needs to understand against its own organizational policies and legal obligations.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just turn technology on because it's cool.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Understand what you're collecting, why you're collecting it, who can access it, how long you actually need it, and when it should disappear.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because good HR technology governance is going to become an increasingly important capability for talent teams.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, my practitioner take.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Where do I land on referenced?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: I liked it.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Quite a lot, actually, and I'll tell you why.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't trying to reinvent recruitment.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't telling me that reference checking needs to become some enormous new discipline.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a relatively small part of the hiring process and asks, how could this be better?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: How could we remove the annoying part without removing the valuable part?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And importantly, how could technology help people have a better conversation?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: I also like the focus.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Will made the point that technology companies can become obsessed with doing everything.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: They start with one problem, then they add another feature, and another, and another.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Until eventually you've got an enormous platform trying to become your ATS, CRM, HRIS, assessment platform, background checker, onboarding tool, and probably order your lunch.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Referenced is focused on references.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I respect that.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: We all talked about future integrations and additional background checking capability.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the core proposition remains straightforward.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Better references, better information, hopefully, better hiring decisions.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're still currently doing references through a Word document, or if you've automated the process to the point where nobody actually talks to anyone anymore, then I'd certainly put referenced on the lists of things worth having a look at.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly given you can currently explore the core product without the usual financial barrier.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But this episode isn't really about reference checking software, it's about something much bigger.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: What are we actually trying to achieve when we automate something?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because efficiency is not automatically improvement.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really important distinction.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: If I reduce a twenty-minute human conversation to a three-minute form, I've saved seventeen minutes.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: But what if the seventeen minutes I removed contained all the value?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to stop measuring technology purely by how much human involvement it eliminates.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes human involvement is the point.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the goal isn't how do we remove the human?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's how do we remove the crap that stops the human being good?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: The typing, the administration, the copying and pasting, the formatting, the chasing, the documentation.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let technology deal with more of that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And give me the conversation back.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because Will gave me a very simple answer when I asked what trend he thought was underrated.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: His answer was talking.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just talking.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And in a profession increasingly obsessed with AI, automation, and scale, maybe picking up the phone is more disruptive than we think.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: A massive thank you to Will McPhee for giving me his time, opening up Referenced, and letting me properly explore what they've built.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: As always, Referenced hasn't paid to be on this podcast.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't sponsored content.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's simply an interesting product solving an interesting talent problem.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm giving you my perspective on what I saw.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Will, thank you for getting behind this Movember series.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's two episodes down.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: 28 to go.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're listening, this next bit is important.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: The entire reason I'm releasing 30 episodes in 30 days is to raise money for Movember and men's health.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So please donate if you can.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: But whether you donate$5,$50,$500, or you're simply not in a position to donate right now, then please share the campaign.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Share this episode with another recruiter.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Send it to your talent team.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Send it to that person in your organization that still does references using a Word document.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when you share it, ask someone else to get behind Movember 2.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because this campaign gets interesting when it stops being about my network and starts reaching yours.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: 30 days, 30 episodes, one mission.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Eden Haddock.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is Eden Haddock, Total Talent.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And tomorrow we go again.