Latest / The Twin History Podcast / The American Civil War: Part Three: The Ghosts of Gettysburg.

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The American Civil War: Part Three: The Ghosts of Gettysburg. · The Twin History Podcast

0:01
The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
0:06
twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
0:10
moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
0:15
the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
0:20
asking why any of this shit actually matters, alongside
0:25
Johnny McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
0:29
Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
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they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack some of
0:38
history's greatest tales, The ones you think you know, the
0:44
ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
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told by them. Enjoy.
1:28
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that
1:32
nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can
1:36
long endure. We are met on a great
1:39
battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a
1:42
portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here
1:47
gave their lives that nation might live.
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It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
1:56
Abraham Lincoln, November 19th, 1863.
2:01
So we are back at the Twin History podcast.
2:04
What was what? I just read there was a part of
2:08
the Gettysburg Address, as you all well know.
2:11
Well, I don't. I know you didn't.
2:15
So you have been replaced for next week's episode.
2:19
So don't worry about that. Yeah.
2:21
So we're on to Part 3, Johnny. Yeah.
2:24
How are you feeling about it all?
2:26
I, I think it's been like a world wind tour of the American
2:31
Civil War. And obviously we said at the end
2:35
of last week's episode, we're going to go into the militarism
2:38
in this episode. So hopefully it goes well or
2:43
goes better than it did for those poor men at Gettysburg and
2:47
some of the other key battles of the American.
2:50
Civil. War.
2:51
I'm sure it won't, but. It might not.
2:53
A question for you, Johnny. If Robert E Lee is chilling out
2:58
in purgatory, are you going to pay the money needed to get out
3:02
of purgatory? Well, well, Joe seemed to be
3:05
making allusions that I was somehow supportive of Robert E
3:11
Lee. At no point that I say that, and
3:13
no point that I say that. He just flew the flag.
3:16
He was fighting to preserve the institution of slavery.
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Yeah, and that's why I'm so perplexed by the Confederate
3:27
flag flying proudly in Johnny's back garden.
3:31
I actually, I do have an American flag.
3:33
It's not flying anywhere. I bought it for a Bruce
3:35
Springsteen concert way back in 2007, but I actually don't know
3:39
what it is, but it's somewhere in the house.
3:41
But it's certainly not a Confederate flag.
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All I'm saying is Robert E Lee, and we have to be aware of this
3:48
in history. Villains, heroes.
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It's more nuanced than that. Obviously someone like Hitler,
3:56
yeah, he's a villain of history, but it's a more nuanced debate
4:02
about Robert E Lee and what he stood for and what he fought
4:06
for. OK, well, we got we got that,
4:10
Johnny. I mean, got that.
4:12
And you're how he says stuffed stuffed to the to the gunnels
4:16
with Hitler books too. So Robert E Lee and Adolf Hitler
4:22
have a a secret place in Johnny's heart.
4:27
Well, listeners, you know that's not true.
4:30
OK, what are we talking about today?
4:34
Well, we're going to get into the militarism of the civil war.
4:38
And you some of the key. Battles.
4:40
As you said in a previous episode, you can't really avoid
4:42
that part of the war. As we said this, this is not a
4:45
narrative account. So we're going to look into the
4:48
militarism of the American Civil War.
4:51
And as Joseph said, as an unavoidable part of the war, we
4:55
cannot, We have to address it. So all I say is I'm not a
5:01
military historian. I wish John Keegan were here for
5:04
this part but. Is he not dead?
5:06
He's been dead for over 10 years.
5:08
Yeah, so he couldn't be here. He Couldn't Be Here, his book on
5:13
the American Civil War as I'm standing, but he does.
5:18
I don't know. For me, he kind of shows some
5:20
some of the faith for the the South.
5:22
He doesn't quite evoke the lost Cause feeling, but he does
5:27
actually condemn it when you get some to that part.
5:30
But he he does, he kind of argues the whole idea that most
5:36
of the South or the men in the South don't own slaves.
5:40
Well, that doesn't mean anything.
5:42
There's still 4 million slaves in the South, so even if the
5:46
biggest plantation owners only have 100 slaves on their
5:51
property, there's still 4 million slaves in the
5:54
antebellum. So it doesn't matter how many
5:57
slaves they specifically owned, because they're. 4 million
6:00
slaves and they were all contributing to the economy of
6:04
slavery so of. Course they were.
6:06
Well, we get into the most famous battle of the Civil War,
6:09
the Battle of Gettysburg. Yes, we can get into the Battle
6:13
of Gettysburg. When was it fought?
6:16
Well, the Battle of Gettysburg is synonymous with the American
6:20
Civil War. If you say the American Civil
6:22
War, most people will know what the Battle of Gettysburg is, or
6:27
at least have heard of the Battle of Gettysburg.
6:30
There was that long ass movie with Robert Deval and Martin
6:36
Martin Sheen. It's about 9 hours.
6:39
It's Herod is excellent. Yeah, I'm sure it's very good,
6:41
but I've never watched it because it was one of those
6:44
movies you saw as a kid in your fault.
6:46
There's no way I'm sitting down and watching a nine hour movie,
6:50
even though it was in three parts, I believe.
6:52
But yeah. Well, you would sit down and
6:54
watch it now. I mean, I was saying the other
6:56
day, well, why aren't you? I just haven't.
7:00
It's not on any streaming service.
7:01
If it was, I would watch it, but it's probably on YouTube.
7:04
Actually, it might be on YouTube.
7:06
Yeah. But I was saying the other day
7:07
on X for so long I Heat. It's a bit off topic.
7:12
Heat has always been my favourite Michael Mann movie.
7:15
But my wife and I, we watched The Insider at the weekend.
7:20
I'd seen it before, but I remember when I first saw it, I
7:23
absolutely hated it. I just find it so boring.
7:26
But now it was a more mature gentleman, shall we say.
7:30
As a man in my 40s, I actually thank The Insider is his best
7:34
movie. Heat's obviously more exciting,
7:37
but I think The Insider is his best movie.
7:39
So your your sensibilities change as you get older.
7:43
So you're saying when you were younger, Gettysburg, the film is
7:47
actually ATV film. Yeah.
7:50
That appealed to you because of the length, but maybe if you
7:52
watched it now it would, yeah. Mike Wallace, Ron.
7:55
Anyway, let's go on. OK, so I mean that the only way
8:01
we can link the insider to this Civil War is the fact it's about
8:06
tobacco and cider. Tobacco industry, hint cider.
8:10
That's it. But OK, Gettysburg, tell us
8:14
about the battle. Tell us when it was.
8:18
OK, so essentially you remember we mentioned the Battle of
8:23
Chancellor vow on the last episode.
8:26
So after that, we sought to win the war.
8:30
And his plan to do that was to invade the North, hopefully
8:36
through this one, popular support in Europe, and to
8:40
destroy Union morale. So he was completely emboldened
8:44
by that incredible victory at Chancellorville. 12 1/2 thousand
8:49
Union soldiers were killed and it was a stunning military
8:53
strategic victory for the Confederacy led by Lee.
8:57
So Lee thought he could end the the war by striking a killer
9:02
blow blow at Gettysburg. So striking at the heart of the
9:07
the Union. So he fell.
9:09
If he wins at Gettysburg, the victory is within grasp of the
9:15
Confederacy. And if he won, then he thinks
9:18
that the Union is going to surrender.
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Perhaps. Perhaps that was his thinking
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Did. The safe ever really have a
9:26
chance of winning the war. Keegan says no.
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Keegan argues that they could have OK.
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What did he say? Well, he says, and this is a
9:37
direct quote from his book, the question of whether the South
9:41
could have won has become one of the most popular of post
9:44
conflict questions. The answer is almost certainly
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not. Material disparities in numbers
9:52
of men and industrial output make it most unlikely that the
9:56
Confederacy could have prevailed over its stronger northern
9:59
neighbour, though at the outset there were many in the South who
10:03
believed and proclaimed that what were seen as critical
10:06
advantages? Particular European dependence
10:09
on the South's export of cotton made it certain that expenditure
10:13
on the raw material would, if supply were interrupted or
10:17
denied, compel Europe's industrial states, which were
10:21
also as great powers, breath of foremost, but France as well, to
10:25
recognise the Confederacy as a legitimately independent state
10:30
and to intervene in it's support, breaking the North's
10:33
blockade and supplying necessities, including credit,
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which would nullify the North's economic advantages.
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As we know, prudence deterred the South's supporters from
10:46
offending the United States, even when provoked as Brits and
10:50
wars during the Trent affair. I don't want to get into all
10:53
that just now. We've got a whole segment on the
10:55
European powers. But as he says there, the South
11:01
would not have prevailed regardless.
11:05
Is there any historians who believe that the South could
11:08
have won? They could.
11:10
I mean, again, we'll get into this on the segment on the
11:14
European powers, at a certain point Britain almost interceded.
11:21
But whether that would have been through a military action or
11:27
not, we've got the whole thing at the moment with Iran in the
11:31
Strait of Ramos, where Britain are seen as being involved.
11:35
But they're not involved because they're not allowing their
11:38
planes or ships to be used in the region, but they are
11:42
allowing America to fuel their war planes and.
11:48
Fighter jets fighter. Jets at British air bases, but
11:52
again, let's leave that until the the European power segment
11:57
we have. I'm sure the listeners can't
11:58
wait for that part. It's the South never had a
12:02
chance. And why is Robert E Lee so
12:05
certain if he wins at Gettysburg, if he wins the
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Battle of Gettysburg, that he can win the war?
12:11
It's just another huge psychological defeat for the
12:15
North coming so soon after Chancellor.
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Though you have to remember until Antietam and until
12:24
Gettysburg, Lincoln was some people thought he was going to
12:30
lose the presidential election on November 64, 1864, because
12:37
things were going poorly. But these crucial victories
12:42
basically turned that around and turned on the entire war.
12:46
Well, I'm surprised they would even have an election during a a
12:49
civil war. Well, I'm kind of it's good they
12:52
did. I mean remember they had
12:53
elections during the Seven World War as well.
12:57
Why'd you think FDR got not got elected?
13:01
Like what was it 4 times? Which has never happened in U.S.
13:05
history. I mean, they basically then they
13:09
didn't change the constitution, but they just suspended the
13:11
constitution. Until the war was over.
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Until the war was over. OK, when did the battle take
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place? Well, it would have been the 1st
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of July 1863. So this is bang in the middle of
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the war. Yeah, right in the middle of the
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war and yeah, and. What tactical mistakes
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contributed to their enormous casualties at this battle?
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Well, the casualties were enormous and the casualties, and
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we'll get into this more and when we go into Antietam, but
13:42
the casualties and the American Civil War were horrendous.
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650,000 men died during the American Civil War and many of
13:55
them died at Gettysburg. So the northern, the Army of
13:59
Northern Virginia, they had 22,600 men dead or missing by
14:07
the end of Gettysburg and the Army of the Potomac had 22,000
14:14
and 800 men missing or dead by the end of the battle.
14:18
So it was a horrendous amount of men to die and again, a lot of
14:26
Lincoln's opponents used this against them in the 1864
14:32
election. But the fact that the Union won
14:36
meant that he was able to get re elected.
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They won those battles meant he could get re elected.
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OK, but OK, let's get into the tactical mistakes.
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Well, the key mistake that military historians say is Lee's
14:56
mistake. So, Lee, I don't know if you
14:59
remember I mentioned one of these generals, James Long St.
15:03
Yeah, it was, is his closest general?
15:06
Yeah. Closest ally, closest advisor,
15:10
probably his most trusted general.
15:12
So Long St was vociferous in his protest that we should not
15:17
attack at Gettysburg, He said let's draw the Union army
15:23
further South out of the town. He wasn't a certain they should
15:26
retreat. He just felt that they should
15:29
move the army further South and not attack the defence of Union
15:35
lines at Gettysburg. And I think the quote was we
15:40
said we have to attack here. The Union Army was being led by
15:45
General me and Long, St said. If we attack here, it's because
15:52
they want us to attack here, so they basically fortified their
15:57
positions for us to attack here. And we obviously won that
16:04
argument. Well, he didn't want the
16:06
argument. He's the commander of the army.
16:09
So he he didn't listen to Long St.
16:11
I'm the commander of the United States, and I say when we go to
16:15
war. What is that?
16:18
Is from 13 days. OK, great.
16:22
Yeah, so so. Get Gettysburg is a defence of
16:27
war, so Lee's crucial mistake, it still could have went either
16:33
way, but he was just so shall we say, intoxicated by his one like
16:41
obviously not medically intoxicated.
16:42
He's not drunk during battle, but he's intoxicated by his
16:47
victory at Chancellor Val and he just sees this.
16:51
It's now or never. It's time to smash the union and
16:55
to smash union morale. So he decides to attack on that
17:00
first day around about 1:00 PM. And fierce fighting breaks out.
17:05
And General Oliver Howard's union corps?
17:09
They lost 5% of their men on that first day.
17:15
OK, so did Lee, did he have some victories during these his
17:20
battle? Well essentially after the first
17:23
night Meads Army, they tagged defensive positions at Culps
17:28
Hill, Cemetery Hill and Cemetery Ridge.
17:31
So from there me General Meads is a way to Lee's next move.
17:36
And this is when Long St says we need to withdraw to the South.
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He says we need to withdraw because if we don't, they're
17:46
waiting for us and we'll be obliterated.
17:50
But we insisted on attacking against all reason he was any go
17:56
on, no? Go on, He was certain he could
17:58
win. He was certain he could win, but
18:00
he made a vital strategic mistake.
18:04
What was Lee's strategic mistake?
18:07
So he attacked the Union line at Emmitsburg Pike and this was a
18:12
crucial mistake because he thought that meets main
18:16
concentration of forces were there.
18:19
They weren't. They were not there.
18:21
They were. Not there.
18:22
So he's thinking this is the main concentration of the Union
18:27
Army, the Union line. If we destroy that, we'll win
18:30
the battle. But they weren't stationed
18:33
there, so. Didn't they have?
18:34
Scouts, they had scouts, but obviously he made a mistake.
18:38
He made a crucial mistake. So also on that day, General
18:44
Warren of the Union Army, he secures basically by a matter of
18:49
minutes little top hell, which would have been the perfect
18:53
vantage point for the Confederacy for their artillery,
18:57
to set up their artillery. So that Alabama 15 regiment
19:02
almost took that point. But because of Warren Scale and
19:06
because of his orders, the Union are able to secure that hell.
19:10
So if they had them, they probably would have lost the
19:14
battle. So by the end of day 2 there's
19:17
20,000 casualties. OK, And how did the union
19:22
respond? So they secure this this hell?
19:26
How did they respond to Lee's attack?
19:28
Well, obviously there's been a huge amount of casualties in
19:33
general. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not.
19:35
Some historians have seen them as being quite not cowardly, but
19:41
the whole idea of the Civil War there were very few Union
19:46
generals who were able to crystallise their battle plans
19:55
and to carry out essentially what would be seen.
19:58
I was Total War, so Grant was 1, Sherman was 1.
20:03
Meat wasn't. And I've just got a quote if I
20:06
can read that. It's not about meat, but it's
20:08
about another. Union commander.
20:10
Yeah, please read it. So General McClellan, on taking
20:15
control of the Union Army in 1861, he told Lincoln that the
20:20
conflict against the Confederacy must be fought with due respect
20:24
for property and the Constitution.
20:27
It should be conducted upon the highest principles known to
20:30
Christian civilization. It should not be at all a war
20:35
against population, but against armed forces and political
20:39
organisations. Neither appropriation of
20:42
property nor the abolition of slavery should be contemplated
20:45
for a moment in prosecuting the war.
20:49
All private property and unarmed persons should be strictly
20:52
protected, subject only to the necessity of military
20:56
operations, and pillage and waste should be treated as high
20:59
crimes. That's a great quote.
21:04
I thought North the man realised he was fighting a war though
21:08
with a quote like that. Yes.
21:10
So a lot of his critics and a lot of Meads critics say these
21:14
men don't have the full bloodedness or a bloodied
21:20
mindedness that was required. For war, the ruthlessness, the
21:24
Yeah. They don't have the ruthlessness
21:26
that was required for war. So after the second day at
21:32
Gettysburg, Mead and his generals convene and they have a
21:37
military council. What happens during that
21:40
council? So at the military council that
21:42
night, and that's you have to remember this is after the
21:46
second day where there's 20,000 casualties, Mead wants to
21:50
retreat from the field and his generals during this war
21:55
council, they overrule him essentially.
21:58
But you just said the opposite. What did I say?
22:00
You said that Robert E Lee, he's a leader of the army.
22:04
They sought Confederacy. So how the hell is meat shot
22:07
down? Why is he shouted down if he
22:09
he's the ultimate decision maker?
22:10
So why doesn't he just say, OK, we're retreating?
22:13
Well, if Robert E Lee can do whatever he wants in your mind,
22:18
including raping, pillaging, burning villages in the North
22:23
and attacking pure rape in the White House, then why can't meat
22:29
be allowed to to retreat the Gettysburg and save all these
22:34
men? Well, the Confederacy never
22:35
attacked the White House, but because I know I don't think
22:39
the. The reason he was overruled is
22:40
because his generals knew that the Union could prevail at that
22:46
battle. So if he retreats, I mean, you
22:50
have to remember whether it's true or not.
22:53
And this was used by the Union General Antietam because the
22:57
Confederacy retreated. But even then, I mean it was a
23:02
huge loss for both sides during that battle.
23:06
But if made retreats, then again we can use this as a
23:11
psychological factory. Can't make like the Union
23:15
retreated. So he was overruled.
23:18
So we head into the first day of battle the next thing.
23:22
So he's overruled and we get to day three of the Battle of
23:27
Gettysburg. And is it fair to say at this
23:30
point both the the Union Army and the Confederacy Army have a
23:34
bloody nose? Well, that's not the analogy
23:37
that I would use. What would you use?
23:39
It's not. It's not the analogy I would
23:41
have used, but Johnny just ran with it, man.
23:44
OK, what is that? It's.
23:46
From those you some something. OK, but what analogy would you
23:50
use? I would say that both sides are
23:55
contemplate victory, but also they know that the feat is very
24:02
possible as well. Is that an analogy?
24:04
I don't think so. Well.
24:05
It's not an analogy, it's just. You something up?
24:08
What's going on? Do you remember the Gettysburg
24:12
Ghosts episode on Unsolved Mysteries when the guys were
24:16
doing the reenactments? Like these weirdos who do battle
24:19
reenactments? I I don't find they're.
24:20
Weirdos. Something like that's very
24:22
random history. To life bringing these guys were
24:26
running around and pretended to be Confederate soldiers and
24:30
Union soldiers. I think it's it's a weird hobby.
24:33
Would you are you out there doing it?
24:35
No, maybe so I can condemn them. I can condemn these men and I
24:43
will condemn these men for being a bunch of weirdos, I don't
24:46
think. The weirdos, but OK.
24:48
I mean, it's a weird hobby I would say.
24:51
I vaguely remember that absolute.
24:53
But so these guys are doing the reenactment and then they meet
24:56
some guys like. Fuck it, I'm getting a second
25:00
fucking. Day for me and the the guy said
25:03
to them it's one hell of a bat Wick there, wasn't it?
25:06
But there are. They said this was actually a
25:09
soldier like a Oh yeah, I remember that.
25:12
Yeah. A lingering memory of the
25:15
battle, and he was still there, forever trapped in purgatory
25:20
with Robert E Lee You. Never know.
25:22
I mean, I don't believe in ghosts, but there have been some
25:25
maybe compelling accounts of civil war like spirits, shall we
25:30
say, or operations at museums and stuff as well, whether it's
25:35
true or not anyway like that. So I, I think there was so much
25:38
energy, so much energy was expounded on those days, so much
25:44
tragedy, that there must be something that still lingers
25:47
there, whether or not that's an easy feeling or a sadness or
25:51
Johnny and his pals running about pretending to be simple.
25:55
George, we must take the Fort. And then I'm like, what is the
26:01
point of reenactments? It doesn't make any sense
26:04
anyway. Sorry, sorry, reenactors.
26:06
If you're listening to this episode then then I do
26:10
apologise. I am half joking.
26:12
Well, I. Mean you have to remember a lot
26:13
of the Civil War movies, they use these big enactors in them
26:18
for the big battles. Yeah, it doesn't matter.
26:20
Go ahead. Let's go day three, day three,
26:23
so we get to day three of the battle.
26:25
Yeah. So can you talk a little about
26:29
Pickett's Charge and how did it come to symbolise both the
26:33
Confederates valour and its ultimate fatality?
26:38
Well, that's a great question for once.
26:42
I'm running this thing. I'm running this.
26:45
I'm the fucking gaffer. Get back out there.
26:48
Yes, it did show their bravery, but as you said, the futility.
26:52
So Pickett's charge, there was a Confederacy attack on the first
26:59
day. So this happened just after 1:00
27:01
PM. So the the Federal soldiers were
27:05
their possessions at Cemetery Ridge and they look out into the
27:09
field and they see the most incredible sight coming towards
27:14
them. What is that sight?
27:16
Is 18 around about 18,000 Confederate soldiers running or
27:22
walking at steady pace across this field towards the Union
27:27
line? At and the unions had the a
27:32
vantage point, didn't they? They had the vantage point and
27:36
they couldn't believe that the Confederacy was just or package
27:41
charge was being LED across this open field did.
27:45
They applaud them. What you applauded Robert E Lee.
27:48
They then applaud them. They waited until they were.
27:51
Around about 700 yards from the Union line, and then they tore
27:55
them to pieces with heavy artillery.
27:59
And what were they thinking to to try and charge this hell?
28:04
I don't know what they were thinking and I don't know why we
28:10
directed them, but he knew this was the most important point of
28:16
the battle, so. It was our last.
28:18
Stand Last Stand. He wanted to go out in a blaze
28:21
of glory. Either we'll win this battle and
28:23
we'll win it through our cottage, or we'll lose.
28:26
It it will be seen as heroic. Will be seen.
28:30
Well, it is a sign of heroism to charge a field like that and to
28:36
open artillery or a stupidity, stupidity, insanity, remember, I
28:42
mean at the very start of the war at Bull Creek, the Rebel
28:47
yell as it became known as where the South or the Confederacy
28:51
would scream as they went into battle unless absolutely
28:54
terrified. The poorly trained Union
28:58
soldiers at Bull Creek at. This point, no.
29:01
You're three years, almost three years into the war.
29:05
These poorly trained soldiers. Three years into the war.
29:08
Yeah, these poorly trained soldiers are no longer poorly
29:10
trained soldiers. No longer.
29:12
They're experienced. They're experienced, battled
29:15
harder than men. They showed their experience.
29:17
Because they didn't panic, they waited until they were within
29:22
range of the heavy artillery and then they just unleashed that
29:28
artillery on the Confederate. And it's hard to say how many
29:34
died and that charge, but the casualty numbers would have been
29:39
enormous. The the man holding the cannon
29:42
say on my signal on Lee shell. No, he doesn't.
29:47
He doesn't. You know, I think he might have
29:49
said something like that on my signal fire.
29:53
So Mead had essentially obliterated Lee's Army of
29:57
Northern Virginia, and the next day Grant won Vexburg, and after
30:02
that the war was empirically lost for the Confederacy.
30:07
Yeah, I mean, I guess no one would ever be able to explain
30:11
why Lee LED that charge. I guess no, I mean, as I said,
30:18
I'm not a military historian. Did.
30:20
He ever see himself? Why he?
30:22
And he did that. I I don't know about it.
30:25
OK. All right, is there anything
30:29
more we should see on Gettysburg?
30:31
It was it was clearly a strategic turning point in the
30:35
Civil War. It.
30:36
Was a turning point in the Civil War and it would lead ultimately
30:40
to victory, but obviously there were other key battles and there
30:44
were other campaigns which greatly contributed.
30:49
But Gettysburg is seen by Union historians as the moment where
30:54
the North realised we can best lead and we can win this war.
31:01
And did the What was the reaction in the South to this
31:05
defeat? Well, it would.
31:06
It would have been shocked, but as Keegan shows, they didn't
31:09
surrender. They showed great resolve in
31:11
continuing to fight on. The war went on for almost
31:14
another year after that, but ultimately the writing was on
31:18
the wall. OK.
31:21
And OK is that, is that all we need to say on Gettysburg for
31:26
now? Yeah, I would.
31:29
Say that's all we need to say. So that's all we have to say on
31:32
Gettysburg for now? Yes, I think so.
31:34
And shall we move on to a lesser known but equally as horrific
31:40
Battle Antietam? I don't think it's lesser known
31:44
as I. Think it is out?
31:46
Of the US maybe, but no, I mean we all know about the battles on
31:50
Tito. I would disagree.
31:52
I think most people would have heard of the Battle of
31:54
Gettysburg. They wouldn't be well most
31:57
people of of a certain age would know of it and but they wouldn't
32:00
know exactly what the battle was.
32:02
I would argue counter to Antietam, that like with
32:08
Antietam, most people would not have a clue what it is.
32:11
So they may not have heard of the Battle of Antietam, but
32:14
obviously it leads to the Emancipation Proclamation after
32:18
the Union. Inverted commas back today.
32:22
OK, let's talk about Antietam, Goodfellas and what happened
32:27
there. OK, when did it happen?
32:29
When did it happen? So in early September 1862, Lee
32:33
crosses the Potomac and to Maryland.
32:36
So a great showdown takes place at Antietam on the 17th of
32:43
September. But before then, Lee's special
32:47
Order 191, which basically his battle plans for Antietam, were
32:54
found by a Union soldier in a tree.
32:57
Where he just left them there. Obviously by accident, someone
33:01
left by accident. Despite this, and despite the
33:08
huge Union advantage in terms of men, they had 80,000 men to lose
33:13
25,000. General McLennan, who we
33:17
mentioned was quite downbeat about the Union's chances at
33:21
Antietam, despite having the battle plans, he was quite
33:24
sceptical that the battle plans were real.
33:27
So similar to D-Day, where the Allies, the Americans could
33:32
outfit plans about where the landing would take place and a
33:38
lot of the German intelligence agents found these plans, so
33:43
they thought the DVA landing was going to take place elsewhere.
33:47
So General McLennan was quite sceptical of the General Order
33:53
191 when they were brought to him.
33:56
He thought they were fake, but they weren't.
33:58
So I mentioned McLennan earlier about how he said the war should
34:03
be fought with. Forum.
34:05
Yeah, OK, so he was sceptical, but what?
34:07
What happens at Antetum? Well Antetum is the bloodiest
34:13
conflict in U.S. history in terms of a single battle.
34:18
So more men died in those 11 hours Antietam than have died in
34:23
any other single battle in U.S. history.
34:29
And how many men died? Well, in those first 11 hours,
34:33
there were over 3500 dead, closer to 4000 dead and there
34:40
were over 13,000 casualties. And those first 11 hours, that
34:45
was because this strategy that both sides used and because of
34:50
the makeup of the battlefield that was used, the American
34:55
Civil War, there were more casualties of that war than
34:59
World War Two. The First World War, Vietnam,
35:03
and the Revolutionary War combined.
35:06
So more men died in the American Civil War then died in those
35:10
four conflicts. The Revolutionary War 25,000 men
35:14
died. In the First World War 115,000
35:18
plus men died. In the Second World War, 400,000
35:22
American soldiers died and in Vietnam it was 50. 1500 men
35:27
died. American soldiers.
35:30
American soldiers, Yeah. OK, OK.
35:33
Well, that's absolutely tragic. Speak a little more about the
35:39
battlefield and how this contributed to this mass number
35:43
of casualties. Well, the battlefield was only
35:46
two miles square. OK, so it leads to the Potomac
35:50
to Antietam trait, where the battle name comes from.
35:53
So we've got these two rival armies set up basically within a
36:00
stone's throw of each other. So if you can imagine that and
36:05
imagine how many men were on each side, I said earlier,
36:09
80,000 Union, 25,000 Confederacy.
36:13
So there you've got large contingents of armies
36:20
concentrated or regiments concentrated on this wee tiny
36:24
field. So it's obviously an absolute
36:27
recipe for disaster, isn't it? Did none of the generals think
36:31
maybe it's best that we'd retreat here?
36:34
I'm sure some of them felt that that should have been the case,
36:39
but obviously they done. And there were a huge number of
36:44
deaths. Also, 300,000 horses were held
36:47
at that battle. So single bloodiest conflict in
36:53
U.S. history, US American. So, yeah, so I mean, other
36:58
battles we had the Battle of Savannah during the
37:01
Revolutionary War, 800 men. The Battle of Moose, Aragon,
37:06
First World War, 26,000 men in two months.
37:10
OK Omaha Beach, 2500 men. I mean, you watch 7000 behind it
37:17
seems like millions are being killed.
37:20
But it was 2500, OK And Hemogena 6000 so.
37:27
Hemogena. Yeah, Sorry.
37:29
Imogena. Hemogena Yeah. 6000 OK, let me
37:34
ask. And what is the outcome of the
37:36
battle? Who's a victor?
37:38
So the union prevails. Yeah.
37:41
Leigh retreats. McLennan proclaims victory.
37:46
He's still relieved of command, though, by Lincoln.
37:50
He's. Relieved of command for
37:52
pursuing. This battle, no, he's relieved
37:55
of command because he didn't pursue it, Leigh.
37:57
He allowed them to escape. They could have pursued them
38:00
into the across the Potomac and could have captured Lee and
38:05
potentially ended the war. But McLennan conservative at
38:09
heart when it came to military matters.
38:12
Yeah, we urged Lee. To escape, to continue the war,
38:15
and also because of the Lincoln relieves and because of the
38:19
enormous loss of life. How?
38:21
How is it? What impact did the antietam's
38:25
high casualties have on public opinion in the North?
38:30
Well, a lot of people wanted to end the war, come to terms with
38:34
the side with the Confederacy to surrender, not so much a
38:38
conditional surrender, not an unconditional surrender.
38:41
And Lincoln's opponents in the 1864 November presidential
38:47
election as Democratic opponents who were running to get the
38:50
nomination, they used Dan Teton and Gettysburg as well as they
38:57
used that, I suspect, to beat them with all the people who
38:59
have died. They're basically called the
39:02
peace wing of the Democratic Party.
39:04
If they were in charge, all those men wouldn't have died,
39:08
but Lincoln did. They run on the platform that
39:11
they would end the war. They they would end the war and
39:15
there would be no more bloodshed.
39:17
But Lincoln knew, and Grant and Sherman shared this belief that
39:25
nothing more than the complete annihilation of the Confederacy
39:29
army. Would do OK yeah, All right,
39:33
that makes sense. But the so we had the we talked
39:37
about these two battles and a few other battles that gets.
39:41
But I think we have a bit of battle fatigue now.
39:44
Should we move on to the next part of the of this episode,
39:50
Sherman's March to the Sea? Well, I mean that that is, it's
39:55
more militarism. But yeah, let's move on.
39:58
No, I know. But yeah, let's move on to
40:01
Sherman's March to see what was it.
40:04
Well, I mentioned Sherman and past them in the last episode,
40:10
didn't I? Who?
40:10
Was he just remind us again, who was Sherman?
40:14
Let's remind our listeners. So Sherman is to this day, he's
40:19
absolutely reviled in the South as the the bogeyman of the
40:25
Northern Union Army and. Why is that?
40:28
So Sherman is absolutely loved still to this day in the South,
40:34
and that's because of the military tactics he used during
40:39
his famous March to the sea. Alright, let's talk about those
40:42
military tactics then. Yeah, so they included
40:47
starvation of the local population.
40:49
And Sherman justified this by the fact that he had 60,000
40:53
soldiers to feed. So they became particularly fond
40:57
of sweet potatoes in the sovereign states.
41:00
So they basically appropriated all those food, rice, mess,
41:05
sweet potatoes from civilians, civilian farms.
41:10
They took this this food by force and that of course.
41:14
I think it by force. Did he not read his friend's
41:17
tweet about Mclennan's tweet about how you should one how one
41:22
should perform in war by that? Stage.
41:25
How one should conduct himself in war?
41:28
Yeah, he probably was aware of it, but by this stage it's too
41:33
late. So many people have died.
41:36
They just want the war to end. So.
41:40
They stole some poor guy's sweet potatoes.
41:43
Sherman's argument was at the time the Carolinas were the
41:47
epicentre of the rebellion against the Union.
41:51
He saw that the civilian population were supportive of
41:57
the Confederacy cause in this area.
42:00
So he went in to crush resistance, to end all dissent
42:06
and to ensure that there was an unconditional so, so the
42:11
Carolina's at the epicentre of the rebellion.
42:14
He wants to crush resistance. OK, so Sherman boss said that
42:19
when they were in Georgia that he he basically inflicted $100
42:23
million worth of damage to the state.
42:27
They targeted civilians. They took strategic Confederacy
42:33
forts essentially. They took Fort McAllister and
42:36
Savannah for example, and this March destroyed morale.
42:44
It freed 10s of thousands of slaves that were still being
42:47
held in the Carolinas. And all told they marched as men
42:51
marched for 425 miles. So when they entered the
42:55
Carolinas, the state capital was burned and this was denounced as
43:00
a war crime. It wasn't quite burnt to the
43:02
ground as the the sovereigners claimed, but fires were set by
43:07
Sherman's men and it almost spread and destroyed the city.
43:13
But Sherman's men, other men apparently got under control.
43:17
So whatever that means. So they set fire to it only to
43:21
put it out. I think some men set fire to it
43:24
and other men within the command like said no, we can't do this.
43:29
Isn't that like Chopper read when he shot the guy and then he
43:32
actually drove him to the hospital after shooting him?
43:35
Maybe you know the film Chopper. I do know the film.
43:40
You've not watched it then, obviously, because it's it's
43:43
similar. He sets it on fire and then he
43:45
he puts it out. But but that chairman have
43:50
something of a point. The Carolinas where the
43:53
epicentre of the sovereign rebellion, if he goes in there
43:58
and crushes that rebellion, cuts out their food supply, maybe
44:04
indulges himself a little too much, but isn't the isn't there
44:09
the argument there that he. Was correct I it's an
44:14
interesting argument under The Hague Convention, the 1977
44:18
additional protocol that was added to the 19491950 draft and
44:26
it was said that under the articles of war the targeting of
44:31
civilians was now. Unlawful did the other Sherman
44:35
up in The Hague then almost 100 years after he committed these
44:39
war? Threats.
44:40
This was in relation to the targeting of civilians and the
44:46
Seven World War. So you've got Hiroshima, you've
44:49
got Hamburg, you've got Dresden. Under the article, under the
44:54
Additional Protocol of The Hague Convention, those would have
44:57
been seen as unlawful because you've targeted civilian
45:01
infrastructure. 40,000 civilians died in one night in Hamburg.
45:06
I mean, we bombed the hell out of Hamburg and Dresden.
45:10
But the argument at that time, and this goes more to the
45:13
question you're asking, the argument at that time, and I do
45:16
agree with this, was you had to bring the German population and
45:24
the Japanese population to its needs.
45:27
You had to if you wanted an unconditional surrender from
45:30
both countries. You have to bring them to their
45:35
absolute knees and it's dreadful and you don't want to see it
45:39
happen. Hiroshima, it's absolutely
45:42
awful, it's appalling and it is a war crime.
45:45
But for me, in the context of the Second World War, and it was
45:50
completely justified. So an answer to your question.
45:53
Well, you sound like Robert S McNamara, but yeah, go on.
45:57
Well I hope I don't sound like McNamara.
46:01
The the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, it is appalling.
46:06
Your fire bomb bombing cities. But the firebomb the Carolinas
46:11
is fine. Yeah, for me, both were fine.
46:15
I agree with what Sherman did. I agree with what the Allies did
46:19
at the end of the Second World War.
46:21
Was it? Wasn't the chairman under orders
46:25
though? I don't think.
46:26
He just decided one day I'm going to March to sea and wipe
46:29
out all these civilians as I go and use psychological warfare.
46:33
Well, I don't. Say he wiped out civilians.
46:36
I'm saying he. He was obviously under orders.
46:38
He would have killed dissenters, Yeah, like armed dissenters.
46:43
But he was justified. And I agree with it.
46:47
And I agree. I mean, we'll do this in a
46:49
future episode, but I agree with the the use of the atomic bomb
46:55
in Japan at the end of the Second World War.
46:57
Well, let's not talk about that now, unless you want to get into
47:01
that when we've got quite a bit still to do here.
47:04
But yeah, you just give me your brief.
47:06
Well, briefly while you were raiding the atomic bombing.
47:12
Does it feel like like Slim like some Pickens and Doctor
47:19
Strangelove they couldn't actually get the bomb released
47:22
from and you jumped on it and took it down and you were like
47:26
they? Can get it released from there
47:28
Enola. Yeah.
47:30
So you had to jump on it to get it and obviously.
47:33
They're joking, and obviously it was like utterly horrendous, but
47:39
the US War Department estimated that one million U.S. soldiers
47:44
would die or could potentially die during a landed invasion of
47:48
Japan. They estimated that 4,000,000
47:50
Japanese soldiers and civilians could also be killed during a
47:54
landed invasion. So they'd spent the equivalent
47:58
of $2 billion on the science behind the atomic bomb, the
48:03
Belt, the Manhattan Project, the Manhattan Project.
48:06
So you've got this technology that you've invested so much
48:09
time, resources, energy into, money into, and it basically
48:16
gives you the opportunity to end the war without risking more
48:20
American lives. So I agree with what they did.
48:24
OK, right. Let's leave that for now.
48:27
But how did Sherman's March psychologically affect the
48:31
Confederate civilian population? If we're going to talk about the
48:34
Japanese and the German population, how did that affect
48:38
the Confederate civilian population and undermine support
48:42
for the war? Basically decimated the whole
48:46
ideological mindset of the civilian population.
48:51
He basically brought the war to them and he has restated the
48:58
Carolinas. That's where the rebellion broke
49:01
out. So Sherman was saying, you guys,
49:04
you caused this, you're supported.
49:07
This is now what you get for being unequivocal supporters of
49:10
the Confederacy. So yeah, we are going to take
49:13
your land. We are going to take your food.
49:15
We are going to kill any dissenters, and you guys are
49:19
going to suffer the consequences of supporting the the
49:24
Confederacy. Can I just read from from John
49:28
Keegan Sherman's Mark, should I say yeah, please.
49:33
So he said of the March. It had been an extraordinary
49:36
achievement, though it brought in a style of warfare that
49:39
boarded the worst sort of elves for people is unable to keep a
49:42
concrete Bay, as Hitler's campaign in Eastern Europe was
49:47
to do it more than 70 years later.
49:50
OK. That's a great quote, but I
49:52
would argue that I don't think Sherman invented psychological
49:57
warfare. Maybe in modern times, but have
50:00
we not heard of Gangis Khan Khan and.
50:04
Alexander the Great, Yeah, Yeah. No, I, I completely disagree
50:08
with Keegan's analysis of Sherman's March of the Sea.
50:12
I mean, Hitler's campaign in Eastern Europe, they killed
50:16
millions and millions of people. And I mentioned this in the 1st
50:19
and absolutely did on the First World War.
50:22
And I completely disagree with that analysis.
50:24
What Sherman did, yeah, You can say it's starvation of the local
50:28
population by taking their food and resources away to feed your
50:33
own army today, that would be seen as a war crime.
50:37
Look at Gaza. We've got all this foods outside
50:41
parked outside in trucks. But you're not getting it unless
50:44
it goes into the whole idea of collective punishment, doesn't
50:47
it? He.
50:47
What? Well, he wasn't the first one
50:49
who did it, and he he won't be the last.
50:51
He wasn't the. 1st and he won't be the last.
50:53
All right, and but I'm I'm sure his March has been interpreted
50:57
differently by Northern and sovereign historians over the
51:02
years. Yes, of course it has.
51:04
Of course it has. The safe would seem is something
51:06
of a bogeyman and the Norf. I don't think he'd be quite
51:10
celebrated, but his actions would probably be seen as
51:14
justified. Yeah, it would have been seen as
51:18
being justified, as horrific as it was.
51:21
And this is taking place during the Overland campaign by Gran.
51:26
One other thing about Sherman, He made a promise to the freed
51:30
slaves. And what was that promise?
51:33
What the 40 acres promise. Well, the 40 acres and the mule,
51:37
and they're still waiting for that, those 40 acres and that
51:40
mule. We can get into that when we do
51:42
reconstruction. With that after, I'm just
51:45
saying, So what happened next with Sherman?
51:48
So he leaves the Carolinas at the end of March, and he then
51:52
meets up with Grant and the Army of the Potomacs port on the
51:58
James. River OK and what?
52:01
Why are the men meeting? Well, he's just there to tell
52:04
Grant of how the operation went. So Ulysses S Grant, he becomes
52:08
general and chief of the armies of the United States in March of
52:12
1864, March 10th, to be precise. So quite late in the war.
52:18
OK, He becomes the general in chief before he goes on to
52:22
become president, dating president of the United States.
52:25
Yeah. And during the Civil War, he
52:28
leads the Overland campaign. What is it?
52:31
So the operational strategic objective of the Overland
52:36
Campaign was to directly engage Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.
52:41
So this was the first time in the Civil War where a general
52:45
said, OK, we have to directly deal with Lee, obliterate his
52:51
army, obliterate his forces, and this is the key to the success
52:55
of winning the war. What took them so long?
52:58
What took them so long to come up with that?
52:59
I mean, to come to that conclusion, to come to that
53:02
conclusion. I I think there were just so
53:04
many like desperate like regiments when when we go into
53:10
specifically into regiments in the next episode.
53:14
If you're going to rule the. Universe you have to kill Darth
53:16
Vader. Yeah, maybe.
53:19
If you're going to win the war, you have to take out they.
53:22
Won the war, they didn't tell them, but the whole idea was
53:26
deal with Lee directly, deal with his Army of Northern
53:30
Virginia directly, and that is the key to winning the war.
53:34
So Grant was obviously, apparently up until that point,
53:38
until he joined the Union Army, his life had been quite
53:41
unsuccessful. He worked at his father's
53:43
business. Unsuccessfully, they just
53:46
promoted him as general and chief be they promoted.
53:48
Him because of his conduct during the American Civil War.
53:52
Because he was good pals with Lincoln?
53:53
No, because. He was a great general, so
53:57
that's why he got. Some men and then.
54:00
You have to remember as well, there were, I mean, we looked at
54:03
and Tyrone, we looked at Gettysburg.
54:05
I mean, although there were Union victories, they are like
54:10
disastrous in terms of the number of casualties.
54:13
They got bloody noses, as we said, and those victories, but
54:17
he realises his grant they you have to remember there are some
54:21
men who are primed for war warfare.
54:24
They flourish in war. Like look at the Lawrence of
54:28
Arabia. He outside the war, he led the
54:31
rather unspectacular unsuccessful life and he was
54:37
lost after leaving the battlefield.
54:40
So ULSC has Grant found his calling and during the Civil War
54:46
and then the he goes on to become the 18th president of the
54:49
United States, which I don't think is a well known fact, but
54:55
he did become the president. So.
54:57
Well, yeah, yeah, of course. But yeah, the Overland campaign.
55:03
Is there anything more you want to say on it?
55:05
No, I thought that was very good analysis on USS Grant becoming
55:10
like he's playing for war and before that his life is quite,
55:14
like unremarkable. So yeah, I mean, that's the
55:17
point and. So you agree that a war should
55:21
should break out to give men like Grant a chance to prove
55:24
themselves on the battlefield, test their mettle?
55:28
No, I. Don't say that.
55:29
But you just said you were happy that a bomb was dropped on a
55:33
Japanese child's head. But I say.
55:35
I was happy, I said. I understand understand why they
55:38
did it and I agree with it. Isn't an act of treason because
55:41
of the child murders? Yes, because of the child
55:44
murders. Why would it be an act of
55:48
treason against Japan? It's a joke.
55:51
Go on. Just pre empting one of our our
55:55
topics here. But yeah, why did you want to
55:58
ask? Was Mr Grant's Overland campaign
56:01
a success? It.
56:03
Was a success, but with caveats. So the strategic objectives were
56:08
realised. Lee's army is depleted and it
56:11
can't be replenished at that point because Bran, brilliantly,
56:17
geographically, they cut off Richmond.
56:20
So any supplies, Richmond, VA Yeah, Richmond, VA.
56:24
Any supplies, munitions, rations that were coming from there were
56:28
basically cut off. So it's a war of attrition.
56:33
So it's criticised by both northern and southern people at
56:38
the time. Historians as well criticise it.
56:42
Again, we mentioned earlier if it had failed, Lincoln would not
56:45
be re elected. So the campaign bolstered
56:48
General Sheridan in the Shenandoah Valley campaign in
56:52
Virginia and Sherman who we we went into in Georgia and the
56:57
Carolinas. So we won't go into great
57:00
detail. We have Sheridan again as a key
57:04
part of the American Civil War, but we don't want to be here for
57:08
30 episodes. Yeah, we can't cover everything.
57:11
Yeah. We can't cover everything.
57:13
Everything. So basically Lee is bogged down.
57:17
The Confederacy is bogged down by the Overland campaign.
57:20
So they can't then send men to relieve those fighting against
57:25
Sheridan and Virginia and Sherman and the Carolinas and
57:29
Georgia. So strategically it is
57:33
incredibly successful. Grant halts a campaign after
57:37
Richmond and Petersburg are acquired.
57:41
So he's succeeded and he's succeeded.
57:43
So essentially the campaign ran from May 1864 until the end of
57:49
June 1864. So there were 7 to 8 key
57:53
battles, the Battle of the Wilderness, I won't go through
57:56
them all. The federal battle at Cold
57:58
Harbour, the Battle of Saint Mary's Church and the Battle of
58:03
North Annie. So I won't go into them all,
58:06
but. And Grant won all these battles.
58:09
It basically the Confederacy at these battles are destroyed.
58:14
So the casualties again are enormous.
58:18
So grant the Union lost 39,000 men, the Confederacy lost
58:25
31,500. But remember, the union has more
58:29
men, yeah, So it's easier for them to replenish their numbers.
58:34
OK, so Grant wins these stunning victories.
58:39
Is there anything more done Overland campaign you would like
58:42
to speak about? Just that essentially it opens
58:47
up the South and it leads to ultimately it will lead to
58:51
victory for the Union. So one of the regiments that was
58:57
part of the Overland Campaign and they took part in the
59:00
attempt on to capture Richmond on the 9th of July 1864 was the
59:06
9th Corpse, which is a predominantly black regiment
59:10
which was part of the Army of the Potomac.
59:12
So this was the first black army or first black regiment to March
59:18
and to Washington. OK.
59:21
And we'll talk about these black regiments in Part 4.
59:24
We will do it on Part 4. So we've come to the end of the
59:28
episode and we'll see you next week.
59:31
We'll see you next week on the Twin History Podcast.
59:33
Thanks for listening. Thank you.
59:35
Bye. Bye.
59:38
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59:41
produced by me Virag, Esther Toot.
59:45
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59:53
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